Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

More defined classesFollow

#1 Jan 16 2011 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
12 posts
I see a lot of people say that this game need more defined classes, but why is it that we just refuse to define them ourselves? Lets say you want to play as something closer to a Red Mage all you would need to do is pick a DoW in which to melee and conjurer; focus you stats on str, dex, mnd, int, and pie. If you want to be a Black Mage just don’t bring heals, a White Mage bring only heals. Hey you can even set up for Dark Knight. I think most of us just got in to a “It‘s not the way I know it so just gonna blame SE” mode and we’re not thinking what really makes a class a class, It’s never been the name, it’s always been the skill set.
#2 Jan 16 2011 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
48 posts
-The time/effort it requires to get the 'most' useful abilities from other classes is too much
-Abilities used cross class are, for the most part, very gimped
-People WANT to be able to fill a niche roll

There are no unique/special abilities that make any class really stand out. I am an archer, I want to feel like an archer. Some of this stems from the armor/gear system. A lot of people enjoy standing out and actually being seen as a certain class. Class specific gear/more class specific abilities are needed. What do different DoW classes bring to a fight (I'm talking about NMs, since they are the only 'endgame' that exists right now), besides different incapacitation abilities? Nothing.

I agree with your idea that mixing and matching class abilities should be fun, but it's just WAY too watered down.
____________________________


#3 Jan 16 2011 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,675 posts
mnikad12 wrote:
-The time/effort it requires to get the 'most' useful abilities from other classes is too much
-Abilities used cross class are, for the most part, very gimped
-People WANT to be able to fill a niche roll

There are no unique/special abilities that make any class really stand out. I am an archer, I want to feel like an archer. Some of this stems from the armor/gear system. A lot of people enjoy standing out and actually being seen as a certain class. Class specific gear/more class specific abilities are needed. What do different DoW classes bring to a fight (I'm talking about NMs, since they are the only 'endgame' that exists right now), besides different incapacitation abilities? Nothing.

I agree with your idea that mixing and matching class abilities should be fun, but it's just WAY too watered down.


This. I want my PUG to feel more like a PUG; To have specific gear, to have more abilities ONLY PUG can have. The two hour from FFXI and the level restriction for abilities really helped in making the jobs the way they were.

It's been stated many many times, definition and 'free to do what you want' are mutually exclusive. The only way to make them inclusive is to create new classes with a combination of abilities, a la FF Tactics. There's always going to be a compromise with this system, that is, if you want more defined classes.
#4 Jan 16 2011 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
200 posts
That, and it makes it nearly impossible to put together a party for a particular task if each player is custom made.
#5 Jan 16 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,636 posts
I think you're missing the point OP. I want my Lancer abilities and weapon skills to feel different from my pugilist ones. Right now the only thing different is the animation. Each class does a bit of everything anyways, there isn't even much reason to cross class skills aside from a few must haves. I also want the themes of each class to be fleshed out a bit more.
____________________________


#6 Jan 16 2011 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
**
353 posts
I feel like the reason behind this is to make partying easier and class balance simpler. In the end it hurts us more than anything. It is no fun playing a thaum or conj since their basically the same role.
#7 Jan 16 2011 at 4:20 PM Rating: Decent
**
265 posts
i think everyone above me has it right. When i play my MRD then swap to LNC, there is almost no difference between them, it only feels like i changed weapons and have new animations. They need a good portion of the class skills to be only for that class, and be the skills that define the roll, the rest be interchangeable and more broad.

The classes are already restricted in a way. My LNC is a **** tank no matter what skills i have on, my MRD cant main heal due to cures being weak and i cant AoE. Its hard to have both, you cant really go both ways, just like trying to appeal to the hardcore and casual crowd, they operate very differently and its almost impossible to make both perfectly happy....and thats one big issue with the game, it trys to be both, but ends up not working for either.
#8 Jan 16 2011 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
**
291 posts
I hope SE doesn't listen to you guys.

If they do they'll just make an MMO like any other I played so I'm sure I'll still have fun, but I really prefer the system as it is. It's really sad people can't see the benefit of being able to fill any role at any time rather than being forced to play a role only when it benefits the team. How can you not see the inherent benefit of a more flexible system to define your own role regularly.

I like how "it takes too much time" is the first whine on that list.

Hard to make a party? As it is I could probably pick any random 5 people on the server (within 5 levels of me in a DoW/DoM job) and we could do just fine after sorting out how to manage hate and who is going to cure. I'd love to try that experiment. ****, I bet I could do it with everyone who posted in this thread.

It's so ridiculously easy to make a party in this system and get to work almost instantly. You guys are mostly demanding they destroy that and claiming you'll have more fun filling a niche role. It breaks my heart.

Edited, Jan 16th 2011 5:26pm by Kirutaru
____________________________
Battle Mage Kiru
#9 Jan 16 2011 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
**
395 posts
mnikad12 wrote:
-The time/effort it requires to get the 'most' useful abilities from other classes is too much
-Abilities used cross class are, for the most part, very gimped
-People WANT to be able to fill a niche roll

There are no unique/special abilities that make any class really stand out. I am an archer, I want to feel like an archer. Some of this stems from the armor/gear system. A lot of people enjoy standing out and actually being seen as a certain class. Class specific gear/more class specific abilities are needed. What do different DoW classes bring to a fight (I'm talking about NMs, since they are the only 'endgame' that exists right now), besides different incapacitation abilities? Nothing.

I agree with your idea that mixing and matching class abilities should be fun, but it's just WAY too watered down.

He pretty much summed up what I meant when I said I wanted more defined classes.

When classes are very broadly defined its fine for soloing but it kills grouping.

How can you know if your getting a nuker? How do you know if your getting a tank? Or a damage dealer?
Soloing doesn't need specific roles.
If you want a game with a broad range of skills to mix and match play Ultima Online, and see how much partying goes on.

Having defined roles gets groups moving and sets up expectations as to how you should play in the party.

Cross-class abilities are incredibly nerfed, few are actually usable. Obviously Cures, Punishing Barbs, Defender are, but in order for you to have a good crossclass character you basically need all jobs at 50.

Look at FFXI for example, you know what to expect from a Ranger vs a Dark Knight vs a Thief. In 14 all DoW fill the same role in a party nearly (except gladiator is a defined tank), but in 11 you had thief for hate control, and you had dark knight for stuns and zergs, rangers for overall heavy dps, black mages for magic dps, samurai for weaponskill dps, ninja for tanking, etc.

14 is just, piercing dps, slashing dps, blunt dps. yay.
(edit: and range piercing dps)

Edited, Jan 16th 2011 5:42pm by Eadieni
____________________________

http://www.prismaticllama.com/
http://www.sologensystems.com
The Prismatic Llama - Peru's llamas got nothing on us.
#10 Jan 16 2011 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
**
395 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
I hope SE doesn't listen to you guys.

If they do they'll just make an MMO like any other I played so I'm sure I'll still have fun, but I really prefer the system as it is.


I'm sure the incredibly low populations will agree with your "keep things as they are" mentality


Edited, Jan 16th 2011 5:44pm by Eadieni
____________________________

http://www.prismaticllama.com/
http://www.sologensystems.com
The Prismatic Llama - Peru's llamas got nothing on us.
#11 Jan 16 2011 at 4:58 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
*****
12,707 posts
Eadieni wrote:
Kirutaru wrote:
I hope SE doesn't listen to you guys.

If they do they'll just make an MMO like any other I played so I'm sure I'll still have fun, but I really prefer the system as it is.


I'm sure the incredibly low populations will agree with your "keep things as they are" mentality


Edited, Jan 16th 2011 5:44pm by Eadieni


It's a lot better than playing the same **** MMORPG every year with a different name, even if it only gets a niche playerbase it'll at least feel like a different MMO for once Smiley: sly

Edited, Jan 16th 2011 2:58pm by Theonehio
____________________________

#12 Jan 16 2011 at 5:08 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
*
200 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
I hope SE doesn't listen to you guys.

If they do they'll just make an MMO like any other I played so I'm sure I'll still have fun, but I really prefer the system as it is. It's really sad people can't see the benefit of being able to fill any role at any time rather than being forced to play a role only when it benefits the team. How can you not see the inherent benefit of a more flexible system to define your own role regularly.

I like how "it takes too much time" is the first whine on that list.

Hard to make a party? As it is I could probably pick any random 5 people on the server (within 5 levels of me in a DoW/DoM job) and we could do just fine after sorting out how to manage hate and who is going to cure. I'd love to try that experiment. ****, I bet I could do it with everyone who posted in this thread.

It's so ridiculously easy to make a party in this system and get to work almost instantly. You guys are mostly demanding they destroy that and claiming you'll have more fun filling a niche role. It breaks my heart.

Edited, Jan 16th 2011 5:26pm by Kirutaru



I don't really have an issue atm, it's just trying to form a party and communicate outside of your ls (at least Mysidia), is hard to do, let alone communicate the necessary roles that people need to do when they are a mishmosh of a class. The auto-translate doesn't work well on the fly in this scenario and vent, etc. is useless to pug a group in this case. That is the only reason why in a cross-language game it is beneficial to have dedicated classes so you don't have to take the time to constantly define roles in a game where it is difficult to do so while attacking.
#13 Jan 16 2011 at 5:12 PM Rating: Good
***
1,636 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
I hope SE doesn't listen to you guys.

If they do they'll just make an MMO like any other I played so I'm sure I'll still have fun, but I really prefer the system as it is. It's really sad people can't see the benefit of being able to fill any role at any time rather than being forced to play a role only when it benefits the team. How can you not see the inherent benefit of a more flexible system to define your own role regularly.

I like how "it takes too much time" is the first whine on that list.

Hard to make a party? As it is I could probably pick any random 5 people on the server (within 5 levels of me in a DoW/DoM job) and we could do just fine after sorting out how to manage hate and who is going to cure. I'd love to try that experiment. ****, I bet I could do it with everyone who posted in this thread.

It's so ridiculously easy to make a party in this system and get to work almost instantly. You guys are mostly demanding they destroy that and claiming you'll have more fun filling a niche role. It breaks my heart.

Edited, Jan 16th 2011 5:26pm by Kirutaru


I think you too missed the point (or at least mine). I like the ability to use cross class skills. And I'd welcome the need to actually do that, which right now we don't have. For the most part, a Marauder weapon skill is going to do pretty much the same as my lancer ones, why bother. Abilities seem like they were assigned randomly, then given the smallest hint of class flavor in the naming.

There are the vague themes of pugilists evading, and marauders standing still, but its implemented weakly. What I want is classes fleshed out more, Pugilist having stances again would be a good example of this.
____________________________


#14 Jan 16 2011 at 5:14 PM Rating: Decent
12 posts
what point have i miss here all im saying if you want the class your in to feel the way you want it to feel its up to you. if you want your PUG to feel like a PUG look at you skills to see what you can do (tank and DD)(also i main PUG) LNC is not a class that sees it true self unless your in a party(a RL friend of mine mains LNC and from what i see we don't play the same). it kinda feels like no one is taking the time to look at the class they're playing and thats why they feel all the same.

ok lets look at the in the light of FFT if you had all skill of a class only useable by that class it would take forever to get skill on some classes because gain JP up would only useable by squire, most male would be bards and female thieves because those classes have the highest move(the one for the ps1), samurai would never be used there would no way to stop the from breaking swords.

so i dont see why being able to use skills on more than the class that learns it could be a bad thing.
#15 Jan 16 2011 at 5:27 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
*
88 posts
Not saying that the system is super awesome and doesn't need some tweaking, but don't just look at your character as a class. You define your character by the classes you level, and can adjust your role accordingly.
____________________________


DaevaofWar.com
#16 Jan 16 2011 at 5:36 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,609 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
I hope SE doesn't listen to you guys.

If they do they'll just make an MMO like any other I played so I'm sure I'll still have fun, but I really prefer the system as it is. It's really sad people can't see the benefit of being able to fill any role at any time rather than being forced to play a role only when it benefits the team. How can you not see the inherent benefit of a more flexible system to define your own role regularly.

I like how "it takes too much time" is the first whine on that list.

Hard to make a party? As it is I could probably pick any random 5 people on the server (within 5 levels of me in a DoW/DoM job) and we could do just fine after sorting out how to manage hate and who is going to cure. I'd love to try that experiment. ****, I bet I could do it with everyone who posted in this thread.

It's so ridiculously easy to make a party in this system and get to work almost instantly. You guys are mostly demanding they destroy that and claiming you'll have more fun filling a niche role. It breaks my heart.

Edited, Jan 16th 2011 5:26pm by Kirutaru


Mistress Theonehio wrote:
Eadieni wrote:
Kirutaru wrote:
I hope SE doesn't listen to you guys.

If they do they'll just make an MMO like any other I played so I'm sure I'll still have fun, but I really prefer the system as it is.


I'm sure the incredibly low populations will agree with your "keep things as they are" mentality


Edited, Jan 16th 2011 5:44pm by Eadieni


It's a lot better than playing the same **** MMORPG every year with a different name, even if it only gets a niche playerbase it'll at least feel like a different MMO for once Smiley: sly

Edited, Jan 16th 2011 2:58pm by Theonehio



I agree with these two. To me, the rolesa are defined. Just people in general reject change or what is unfamiliar.

The job system is one of the selling points to me. I love being able to make my job what I want, not being told that I can only spam cure cause I am a healer.

I love making my conjurer a front line job. I can battle mobs with my husband doing melee and healing when needed.

If we were to ever party, then I will sit back and heal. However for duoing purposes and small groups, I love having the freedom to build my character like I want her.

If i wanted a defined system, I would go play FFxi, Ever Crack or WoW, until then, no thank you.

However, some have mentioned the abilitiea being gimped. This is true, however, they should fix this a bit to maybe encourage those to want to mix classes.
____________________________


"I've never watched a nuclear explosion myself. That's a couple of degrees of stupid above my limit"- Old Man Harris
#17 Jan 16 2011 at 5:54 PM Rating: Good
12 posts
Edited, Jan 16th 2011 5:26pm by Kirutaru [/quote]

I think you too missed the point (or at least mine). I like the ability to use cross class skills. And I'd welcome the need to actually do that, which right now we don't have. For the most part, a Marauder weapon skill is going to do pretty much the same as my lancer ones, why bother. Abilities seem like they were assigned randomly, then given the smallest hint of class flavor in the naming.

There are the vague themes of pugilists evading, and marauders standing still, but its implemented weakly. What I want is classes fleshed out more, Pugilist having stances again would be a good example of this. [/quote]

This what i meant by no one is looking at the classes. if you think that a LNC weapon skill MRD weapon skill are the same you clearly haven't played either that much.

the themes you speak of are not as weakly implemented as you think as a rank 16 PUG you should have haymaker and jarring strike moves that can only be use atfer evading, concussive blow a move that lower a mob accuracy, light the increases defense and eavsion,
and featherfoot that also increases eavsion. im not even gonna get in to MRD.
your on this site maybe you should look up the skills for all the classes.
#18 Jan 16 2011 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,636 posts
akihabarasato wrote:
Edited, Jan 16th 2011 5:26pm by Kirutaru


I think you too missed the point (or at least mine). I like the ability to use cross class skills. And I'd welcome the need to actually do that, which right now we don't have. For the most part, a Marauder weapon skill is going to do pretty much the same as my lancer ones, why bother. Abilities seem like they were assigned randomly, then given the smallest hint of class flavor in the naming.

There are the vague themes of pugilists evading, and marauders standing still, but its implemented weakly. What I want is classes fleshed out more, Pugilist having stances again would be a good example of this. [/quote]

This what i meant by no one is looking at the classes. if you think that a LNC weapon skill MRD weapon skill are the same you clearly haven't played either that much.

the themes you speak of are not as weakly implemented as you think as a rank 16 PUG you should have haymaker and jarring strike moves that can only be use atfer evading, concussive blow a move that lower a mob accuracy, light the increases defense and eavsion,
and featherfoot that also increases eavsion. im not even gonna get in to MRD.
your on this site maybe you should look up the skills for all the classes. [/quote]

You know, I think its just a difference of opinion. Some people think its enough, some people don't. Personally, I don't really feel they have taken advantage of the armory system as much as they could have.
____________________________


#19 Jan 16 2011 at 6:03 PM Rating: Default
**
265 posts
I dont think the people who are saying how great this system is gets what anyone is else is saying. First of the class roles are already for the most point pre-set. A LNC can not main heal, or nuke, or enfeeb or even tank. Things are already in place that pre- set you. Of course you can say well a PUG or MRD can tank...which is true, but they have this already set in place, that were there from before we could play the game (evasion boosts or parrying boosts along with high HP).

1) AoE This is one of the major things that prevents non-mages from being even remotely mage like

2) Core stats: our ccore stats we distribute have a very limited effect aside from HP/MP. I could pump out mage stats on my LNC but it wont make my cures/nukes..ect even half as good as a mages. IF these where as potent as say FFXI's, then the story would be different.

3)weapon stats: Most of your magic and physical attack/acc comes from your weapon. What makes a MRD not nuke or enfeeb or cure well? the stats on the weapon. We are given VERY minimal stats on the opposite side (mage gets very little P. attack/acc, melee the opposite) This along with the AoE factor are a major reason we cant be what we want when we want. We do have some freedom, but its still limited.

What im saying is you cant have it both ways, you really need to pick mostly all custom or mostly defined.

Edited, Jan 16th 2011 7:05pm by zanfire
#20 Jan 16 2011 at 6:13 PM Rating: Decent
35 posts
mnikad12 wrote:
-The time/effort it requires to get the 'most' useful abilities from other classes is too much


If anything the grind to level the classes is too easy. Yes, it is also mundane and monotonous, there is a severe lack of any combat strategy. I see so many rank 50 people running around already. They started popping up just months after the CE was released.

Kirutaru wrote:
I hope SE doesn't listen to you guys.

If they do they'll just make an MMO like any other I played


I agree that I'd like to play an FF-MMO that is unique, but SE has a few things working against them right now. They used similar style and design to FFXI. They used the exact same races as FFXI. They used the exact same mobs as FFXI. They used much of the same class ideas and abilities as FFXI. They used similar worlds and cities as FFXI.

I understand the need to bring back the classic parts of the Final Fantasy genre, but near copy and paste is not going to bring in mass subscriptions. This Massively Multiplayer Online Game needs massive amounts of people to make it work.

I'm not saying that SE can't create something unique from what they have started with here, but it will be difficult to say the least.

More on topic though: More defined classes could be nice, but it all depends on how the devs implement it. They could create a system of more defined roles or leave things as they are. Once SE implements at least a modicum of challenge and strategy to the battle system, we'll see how it goes.
____________________________
***Have you ever wondered which hurts the most: saying something and wishing you had not, or saying nothing, and wishing you had?***
#21 Jan 16 2011 at 6:16 PM Rating: Default
*
93 posts
The classes suck casting thrm magic by a conj is gimped a lot same with conj to thrm spells **** both get the same dam revive spell just different names the system needs a change its boring and unpolished like the rest of this game
#22 Jan 16 2011 at 6:19 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
200 posts
zanfire wrote:

2) Core stats: our ccore stats we distribute have a very limited effect aside from HP/MP. I could pump out mage stats on my LNC but it wont make my cures/nukes..ect even half as good as a mages. IF these where as potent as say FFXI's, then the story would be different.


Edited, Jan 16th 2011 7:05pm by zanfire


The only way around this is if the person took the time to level the job class to earn the skill/spell, then do away with the stat points and have the stat points allocate automatically according to what said person has equipped. The drawback of this is with the elemental stat allocations which would have to be done away with entirely speaking from a pure CON point of view. If you took the time to level to Fire II and equipped it as a lancer then it would have the same dmg as a conjurer at that same level taking away any physical level discrepancies. I don't agree with that system and I don't know how the hardcore players would feel about it either. Me, being semi-hardcore due to working 60 hours a week, would most definitely not like to see a system like that implemented.
#23 Jan 16 2011 at 6:31 PM Rating: Default
**
265 posts
Buttsniffa wrote:
zanfire wrote:

2) Core stats: our ccore stats we distribute have a very limited effect aside from HP/MP. I could pump out mage stats on my LNC but it wont make my cures/nukes..ect even half as good as a mages. IF these where as potent as say FFXI's, then the story would be different.


Edited, Jan 16th 2011 7:05pm by zanfire


The only way around this is if the person took the time to level the job class to earn the skill/spell, then do away with the stat points and have the stat points allocate automatically according to what said person has equipped. The drawback of this is with the elemental stat allocations which would have to be done away with entirely speaking from a pure CON point of view. If you took the time to level to Fire II and equipped it as a lancer then it would have the same dmg as a conjurer at that same level taking away any physical level discrepancies. I don't agree with that system and I don't know how the hardcore players would feel about it either. Me, being semi-hardcore due to working 60 hours a week, would most definitely not like to see a system like that implemented.


I dont think that alone would be a fix either. What im getting at is that all of those things and more are what makes peoples theorys of "but just build and be what you want." not work. The system is flawed and needs changes. You cant be a custom game and a role filling game at the same time, just like you will never fully satisfy the casuals and the hardcore, they are of 2 VERY different worlds.
#24 Jan 16 2011 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
48 posts
SirEdmundBurke wrote:

If anything the grind to level the classes is too easy. Yes, it is also mundane and monotonous, there is a severe lack of any combat strategy. I see so many rank 50 people running around already. They started popping up just months after the CE was released.


Leveling classes past 30 is hard due to the fact that:
1. There aren't enough coblyns/doblyns to go around
2. Every person does not have a LS that does leves in a large group
3. Every server isn't active/populated enough to reliably get PUG groups for leves
4. Behest is capped at 15 people, and the claiming system usually leads to reduced SP in the behest anyways
5. Grinding outside of leves in a party is viable, but not worth it
6. Only being able to do leves every 36 hours, when there are really only a handful of 'good' sp leves

Sure getting rank 50 is easy in terms of how hard it is to fight stuff/strategize. It's hard due to the current design of the game and how you are rewarded SP.

Kirutaru wrote:
I hope SE doesn't listen to you guys.

If they do they'll just make an MMO like any other I played so I'm sure I'll still have fun, but I really prefer the system as it is. It's really sad people can't see the benefit of being able to fill any role at any time rather than being forced to play a role only when it benefits the team. How can you not see the inherent benefit of a more flexible system to define your own role regularly.


The flexibility of the system is good, but like I said it is way too watered down (just like the equipment system). Right now the only difference that matters between DPS classes is which weapon you think looks coolest. If there are no true class specific abilities that each class can bring to a fight, why are there classes in the first place? Nobody is arguing to trash the current system, just add more unique and specific class abilities.

Kirutaru wrote:
I like how "it takes too much time" is the first whine on that list.


I welcome you to level multiple classes to 40+ for useful abilities and get back to me on how you feel about the amount of time spent.

Kirutaru wrote:
Hard to make a party? As it is I could probably pick any random 5 people on the server (within 5 levels of me in a DoW/DoM job) and we could do just fine after sorting out how to manage hate and who is going to cure. I'd love to try that experiment. ****, I bet I could do it with everyone who posted in this thread.


Sure you can do this, and that is one of the benefits of the current system. Kudos to SE. Still doesn't change the fact that none of the classes stand out in any way.

Kirutaru wrote:
It's so ridiculously easy to make a party in this system and get to work almost instantly. You guys are mostly demanding they destroy that and claiming you'll have more fun filling a niche role. It breaks my heart.


Lack of most people understanding how to use the party search function makes finding a pug difficult for people on some servers. SE's fault for a poorly implemented feature. All I'm asking for is an actual feeling of uniqueness for classes. But, you seem to have missed that point.







____________________________


#25 Jan 16 2011 at 6:57 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
200 posts
zanfire wrote:
Buttsniffa wrote:
zanfire wrote:

2) Core stats: our ccore stats we distribute have a very limited effect aside from HP/MP. I could pump out mage stats on my LNC but it wont make my cures/nukes..ect even half as good as a mages. IF these where as potent as say FFXI's, then the story would be different.


Edited, Jan 16th 2011 7:05pm by zanfire


The only way around this is if the person took the time to level the job class to earn the skill/spell, then do away with the stat points and have the stat points allocate automatically according to what said person has equipped. The drawback of this is with the elemental stat allocations which would have to be done away with entirely speaking from a pure CON point of view. If you took the time to level to Fire II and equipped it as a lancer then it would have the same dmg as a conjurer at that same level taking away any physical level discrepancies. I don't agree with that system and I don't know how the hardcore players would feel about it either. Me, being semi-hardcore due to working 60 hours a week, would most definitely not like to see a system like that implemented.


I dont think that alone would be a fix either. What im getting at is that all of those things and more are what makes peoples theorys of "but just build and be what you want." not work. The system is flawed and needs changes. You cant be a custom game and a role filling game at the same time, just like you will never fully satisfy the casuals and the hardcore, they are of 2 VERY different worlds.



I agree, but I disagree that both worlds can't be satisfied. The casuals don't know any better than vanilla games so give them their crafts, their npc quests, and enought to satisfy their hearts until they reach a level (such as 40), where they are either forced to level something else with different vanilla quests, or make the transition to endgame. Most casuals probably haven't participated in any mmo endgame anyways. IMO from the people that I see playing and complaining, they seem to be mostly hardcore.
#26 Jan 17 2011 at 12:29 AM Rating: Good
**
291 posts
I think I agree with Kuja fundamentally (if that's what you need to hear).

Most of you, however, I feel are asking for the game to be more like XI and it's ironic because one of the big complaints with XI over the years is how much it sucked to have to have an exact party of 6 specific jobs with very little room for flexibility. So SE makes a game where this isn't an issue and the forums are crawling with people crying they don't like it. Well I'm saying I like it and I hope they don't change it.

I have several jobs around or above R40. Thanks. It didn't take as long as people carry on about. It's so easy to hit R50 in this game I'm practically doing it with my eyes closed and only 3 hours per leve cycle (per job).

If I were playing a melee job, I'd be farming the **** out of abilities on other melee jobs just to make mine more versatile. However, I chose Magic so I only have to worry about 2. Though I may go back and get things like Defender and such when I have reached my goals with the 2 jobs I'm currently working on.

I said originally the system needs lots of refinement. I also agree each job already has a preset and identifiable role. You invite a Conj to your party, you already don't know if you got a nuker or healer on your hands - Here's my advice: Ask. I doubt you're going to invite a PUG and wonder if he plans to Main Tank or Main Heal. I'm pretty sure he already assumes his role - but I do think I could main heal on PUG just fine. I'd even level PUG to prove it to you all if I truly gave a crap what you thought (or if I thought it would impress you).

The Armory system needs more. It needs a lot more, but what it doesn't need is abilities that are restricted to certain classes. Aside from 1-2 (as I said already) which may help to make it slightly more distinctive.

Also gotta disagree with whoever said cross-class abilities are too gimp to be worthwhile. My R46 Conj loves the **** out of Siphon MP. So does my R18 Glad. If I had to start over today I'd get Thaum to R20 first because I think Siphon MP about the best ability I have seen yet. Heh.
____________________________
Battle Mage Kiru
#27 Jan 17 2011 at 1:22 AM Rating: Good
****
9,526 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
If I had to start over today I'd get Thaum to R20 first because I think Siphon MP about the best ability I have seen yet. Heh.


So hard.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#28 Jan 17 2011 at 2:00 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
88 posts
Tankue wrote:
Not saying that the system is super awesome and doesn't need some tweaking, but don't just look at your character as a class. You define your character by the classes you level, and can adjust your role accordingly.

____________________________


DaevaofWar.com
#29 Jan 17 2011 at 4:48 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,146 posts
While I like being able to mix abilities of different classes to build my preferred setup I also think the classes need more definition.

When I use a MRD TP attack that does AoE slashing damage with ARC that's just wrong.
Abilities, like LNC's Speed Surge for example, that require a certain weapon are a good way to keep classes unique. Give every class some such abilities to define their role more clearly.

And I think that the effectivness of abilities should be affected by your stats. For example the defense bonus of Defender increasing the higher your VIT.

Buttsniffa wrote:
The only way around this is if the person took the time to level the job class to earn the skill/spell, then do away with the stat points and have the stat points allocate automatically according to what said person has equipped.

Reading this I remembered something of another game I played in the past. What if the abilities you equip would also give you stats and resistances?
For example the PUG ability Featherfoot giving additional 5 evasion when the ability is equipped, or Burn increasing fire element by 5,...
That way people could either focus on one aspect and specialize in that or they get a mix of abilities and become more versatile with that class.
____________________________

Final Fantasy XI
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Name: Kyana (retired)
Jobs: THF75 PLD70 BST70

#30 Jan 17 2011 at 6:26 AM Rating: Default
[quote=zanfire].

1) AoE This is one of the major things that prevents non-mages from being even remotely mage like
[quote]

If AoE is the main thing that prevents non-mages from being mages there is something seriously wrong with this game...

I already had a flaming thread about this issue a while back and I do agree with the OP that the whole system of "you can be whatever you want to be" is great on paper but in practise it simply is just boring and makes all jobs the same.

You can live in a dreamworld where people will adjust to every situation but just like in real world... I would rather see a doctor that has devoted his life to medicine than a doctor that also likes to go chase criminals on his lunch break.
____________________________

#31 Jan 17 2011 at 8:42 AM Rating: Default
**
395 posts
LeilaniWildfire wrote:

You can live in a dreamworld where people will adjust to every situation but just like in real world... I would rather see a doctor that has devoted his life to medicine than a doctor that also likes to go chase criminals on his lunch break.

Think you pretty much just hit the heart of the issue here. People like a specialist rather than a hobbyist.

What I'd like to see to change the situation is, allow you to allocate stats on a per-job basis. That way you're not having to pick one set of stats for all jobs with a 2 hour reallocation period. And have it save the last used stat configuration for each job.

This would enable us to specialize each class towards the roles we want to use, rather than trying to somewhat even out stats so we can play everything.
____________________________

http://www.prismaticllama.com/
http://www.sologensystems.com
The Prismatic Llama - Peru's llamas got nothing on us.
#32 Jan 17 2011 at 8:51 AM Rating: Default
***
1,608 posts
ugh
____________________________

#33 Jan 17 2011 at 10:08 AM Rating: Default
**
265 posts
LeilaniWildfire wrote:
[quote=zanfire].

1) AoE This is one of the major things that prevents non-mages from being even remotely mage like
[quote]

If AoE is the main thing that prevents non-mages from being mages there is something seriously wrong with this game...

I already had a flaming thread about this issue a while back and I do agree with the OP that the whole system of "you can be whatever you want to be" is great on paper but in practise it simply is just boring and makes all jobs the same.

You can live in a dreamworld where people will adjust to every situation but just like in real world... I would rather see a doctor that has devoted his life to medicine than a doctor that also likes to go chase criminals on his lunch break.


AoE is mainly the reason why non mages could never heal a party well enough (along with there heals being crap compared to mages). Its all those reasons put together that already set us in some form of pre-set role, but they have no real definition outside of those limitations. you can still be a moron and set all magic stuff as a MRD, but your still useless.

That whole bit was to show people who think we can be what we want as any class that its not true, and then every thing else people have been saying about needing more abilitys that set us apart is because we are already kind of set that way in the first place. I would rather they make their **** minds up and say we are "anything anytime" (aka: fully custom classes) or more defined in our roles with some abilitys we can swap from other classes that help us mix it up a bit/ let us build a bit better for solo. Its plain old not working as is, which is trying to be both.
#34 Jan 17 2011 at 4:08 PM Rating: Decent
12 posts
The thing im having the hardest time understanding is why you feel as a non-mage your magic should be just as powerful as a mage. there is a reason a class learns the skills they learn and why they're the best at them. and why you people feel that if its not you shouldn't have the option

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 5:09pm by akihabarasato
#35 Jan 17 2011 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
**
265 posts
akihabarasato wrote:
The thing im having the hardest time understanding is why you feel as a non-mage your magic should be just as powerful as a mage. there is a reason a class learns the skills they learn and why they're the best at them. and why you people feel that if its not you shouldn't have the option

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 5:09pm by akihabarasato


Well if you understood anything i was saying, you would have understood that is was part of an example of how classes are already mostly pre-defined as is. Of course a melee shouldn't be good as a mage, but its the fact that it is almost pointless to even bother with pretty much any mage stuff, because its not even worth doing. At the low end of the game some stuff works ok, but later on melee's using magic...even for cures becomes almost pointless.

Too many people seem to have it in their head that you can be anything at any time, which really doesnt work, so the other way to go is make the classes more defined (or you go the total opposite and make it fully custom).

Try playing an LNC and MRD and tell me what is really different between them? almost nothing...and thats the point others are trying to make.
#36 Jan 17 2011 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
12 posts
zanfire wrote:
akihabarasato wrote:
The thing im having the hardest time understanding is why you feel as a non-mage your magic should be just as powerful as a mage. there is a reason a class learns the skills they learn and why they're the best at them. and why you people feel that if its not you shouldn't have the option

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 5:09pm by akihabarasato


Well if you understood anything i was saying, you would have understood that is was part of an example of how classes are already mostly pre-defined as is. Of course a melee shouldn't be good as a mage, but its the fact that it is almost pointless to even bother with pretty much any mage stuff, because its not even worth doing. At the low end of the game some stuff works ok, but later on melee's using magic...even for cures becomes almost pointless.

Too many people seem to have it in their head that you can be anything at any time, which really doesnt work, so the other way to go is make the classes more defined (or you go the total opposite and make it fully custom).

Try playing an LNC and MRD and tell me what is really different between them? almost nothing...and thats the point others are trying to make.


this kinda funny because i have and i really, really, really hate LNC (i could go on but thats not the point) and i love MRD so there must be something different there or i would hate MRD too. oh yea there is steadfast. LNC misses a great deal more than MRD. MRD (IMxp) has a much higher crit rate than LNC. these maybe small but they are differences but they are differences.
#37 Jan 17 2011 at 5:26 PM Rating: Default
**
265 posts
akihabarasato wrote:
zanfire wrote:
akihabarasato wrote:
The thing im having the hardest time understanding is why you feel as a non-mage your magic should be just as powerful as a mage. there is a reason a class learns the skills they learn and why they're the best at them. and why you people feel that if its not you shouldn't have the option

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 5:09pm by akihabarasato


Well if you understood anything i was saying, you would have understood that is was part of an example of how classes are already mostly pre-defined as is. Of course a melee shouldn't be good as a mage, but its the fact that it is almost pointless to even bother with pretty much any mage stuff, because its not even worth doing. At the low end of the game some stuff works ok, but later on melee's using magic...even for cures becomes almost pointless.

Too many people seem to have it in their head that you can be anything at any time, which really doesnt work, so the other way to go is make the classes more defined (or you go the total opposite and make it fully custom).

Try playing an LNC and MRD and tell me what is really different between them? almost nothing...and thats the point others are trying to make.


this kinda funny because i have and i really, really, really hate LNC (i could go on but thats not the point) and i love MRD so there must be something different there or i would hate MRD too. oh yea there is steadfast. LNC misses a great deal more than MRD. MRD (IMxp) has a much higher crit rate than LNC. these maybe small but they are differences but they are differences.


when the biggest differences comes down to crit rate and accuracy....thats just not good.
#38 Jan 18 2011 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
**
291 posts
Umm...play style for MRD and LNC is completely different. Lancer should be in motion most of the time. WSs require lining up mobs, dealing damage based on location and also the role of enfeebling the mob. MRD is much more about standing fast and dealing damage. Is a more suitable tank or DD, while I find my LNC to be a better DD/Support character. I love LNC and dislike MRD and I could see how other have the reverse view. They are very different classes. As an LNC I enjoy duoing with an MRD, it's definitly not the same as two LNCs running around.


On a separate note - i would like to see the affinity traits enable AoE casting for DoW classes at the optimal rank (50).

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 2:50pm by NayliaMR
____________________________

#39 Jan 18 2011 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
30 posts
all classes have their own set of skills that makes them different, im an archer r38 and have several jobs 20's most of them DoW, and i have to disagree a little because i feel that most of the jobs have their own taste, as an archer i dont give that much points to skills from others jobs, only for enhancing abbilities when im in a party and i put some healing type if im soloing.


I have a good set of skills that i can use of my same class, so the thing is how you play your class, i dont know as a marauder i could try to use it as Dark Knight, you have enough skills combining marauder and thaumaturge, taking most of the marauder skills as main and leaving the buff and enfeeble type as secondary like absorbs spells, etc. you can set the type of role you want as it is thats why i think if they were to change the class system to a more similar way as FFXI it would lost the taste of having that kind of freedom.

About getting a class that doesnt play as it supossed to do well you have to ask what role is he/she playing before invite, and anyone here should understand that if you're playing any class you should set your skills in the way you see that your class is getting the supposed role, if not you should tell before hand, ie. your a gladiator playing similar as a Red Mage, combining Thaumaturge/conjurer/gladiator stats and abbilities.


I dont see that much problem in making a class on your own most of the classes can make those hybrids by rank 20, I think most of the people is just lazy of leveling classes and want everything easy-fast class/ battle system, a problem made by all those MMORPG currently on the market, Now that you have all the freedom to do what you want to do, in the way you want, Why are you complaining asking for a same game as FFXI? if they had launch something similar im guessing most of the people would say "Its the same way, what a crap, same locked classes, i want more, i want it different"

I would agree adding a few skills just to improve the classes a little but thats it, and of course new rendering for most of the weapon skills that we have know to make them look really different from each other.
____________________________

This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 21 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (21)