Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
This Forum is Read Only

How do you wanna level?Follow

#1 Jan 17 2011 at 1:02 AM Rating: Good
22 posts
Since the november update, the sp system has gone through significant changes which we all already know.

I would like everyone's feedback out of curiousity as to what you would prefer to be the best model for the grind which is an expected timesink in most MMO's these days. FFxi style, leve-linking, mob zerging or something different.


Here's what prompted me to post this:

I've been playing since beta, and initially before the november update, i hated the sp inconsitancy, but i enjoyed fighting more challenging fights like black efts at rank 30 to gain sp.

Since the update, we now get consitant sp... zerging mobs. This i was very unhappy with. So, people now link leves for an increase in sp/hr.

Personally, i miss grinding in 11, but i enjoy gaining sp killing different mobs on levequests with different objectives.

I would like to see them keep the levequest option in place to keep the repetiviness of 11's grind away, however bring back the CHALLENGE which has been lost somewhat and allow us to gain sp in an 11 style grind.

Stop giving me high sp for 3 shotting doblyns and give me 300+ for mobs that require a challenge.

Anyways who cares what i think, i want to hear how everyone else feels about it cuz i haven't gotten a good measure of it.

Be kind!
____________________________


#2 Jan 17 2011 at 1:23 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
i'd like quests that take me to a dungeon, which i fight through with or without other people, encountering puzzles and challenging enemies and mini/megabosses. Basically i'd like a new version of Salvage from FFXI, but i want the mobs to actually give XP (and SP) and i want more of a storyline attached. Maybe an NPC or two that joins me and/or my party for all or part of the dungeon.

I'd like the dragon tower in Mor dhona to be a giant, many floored tower dungeon with awesome bosses on each floor with XP and loot everywhere.

I'd like the Primal mobs that spawned from the dragon to randomly drop out of the sky and attack stuff/players/npcs. I don't care if it's biting Rift, i want that.

I'd like random dark towers to rise out of the ground and be dungeons that only last for a short time, like a few hours. You group up with whoever gets there and go in and try to beat the mega boss. Maybe later in the game you can get an item that predicts or spawns these dungeons.

I'd like the main cities to be attacked by the Garleans or anyone, really. Or at the very least, attack some of the outposts on the map that are currently there for no reason. I'd also like the Aetheryte camps to be raided, kind of a reverse Behest. And get rid of Behest as it is now, its retarded.

Battlewarden "Come kill a bunch of mobs over there"

Player: "Why?"

Battlewarden: "idk"

if the mobs attack the camp, we have a reason (aside from just xp) to fight them.





so yeah, stuff like that.

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 2:26am by Llester

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 2:28am by Llester
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#3 Jan 17 2011 at 1:47 AM Rating: Good
****
6,898 posts
AtmaWeapon0 wrote:
Since the november update, the sp system has gone through significant changes which we all already know.

I would like everyone's feedback out of curiousity as to what you would prefer to be the best model for the grind which is an expected timesink in most MMO's these days. FFxi style, leve-linking, mob zerging or something different.


Here's what prompted me to post this:

I've been playing since beta, and initially before the november update, i hated the sp inconsitancy, but i enjoyed fighting more challenging fights like black efts at rank 30 to gain sp.

Since the update, we now get consitant sp... zerging mobs. This i was very unhappy with. So, people now link leves for an increase in sp/hr.

Personally, i miss grinding in 11, but i enjoy gaining sp killing different mobs on levequests with different objectives.

I would like to see them keep the levequest option in place to keep the repetiviness of 11's grind away, however bring back the CHALLENGE which has been lost somewhat and allow us to gain sp in an 11 style grind.

Stop giving me high sp for 3 shotting doblyns and give me 300+ for mobs that require a challenge.

Anyways who cares what i think, i want to hear how everyone else feels about it cuz i haven't gotten a good measure of it.

Be kind!


I whole-heartedly agree with everything you said. I want a challenge, that's why I play MMO's. I don't want to play Coblyn Fantasy, I want to play something that will require me to formulate strategies, or at LEAST not just mindlessly kill the same mob over and over while I watch Avatar: The Last Airbender (the show, not that god awful movie) on Netflix in the background to keep from dying of boredom...

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 2:48am by BartelX
____________________________
Bartel Hayward--- Ultros Server
The Kraken Club <ZAM>
50 WAR • 50 MNK • 50 MIN • 50 GSM • 50 ARM • 50 LTW • 50 CUL • 50 WVR
thekrakenclub.shivtr.com
#4 Jan 17 2011 at 1:49 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
31 posts
For me at the moment the question is more WHY do I wanna level .... :(
____________________________


#5Tankue, Posted: Jan 17 2011 at 1:53 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) What is a "wanna"?
#6 Jan 17 2011 at 2:02 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
179 posts
Llester wrote:
i'd like quests that take me to a dungeon, which i fight through with or without other people, encountering puzzles and challenging enemies and mini/megabosses. Basically i'd like a new version of Salvage from FFXI, but i want the mobs to actually give XP (and SP) and i want more of a storyline attached. Maybe an NPC or two that joins me and/or my party for all or part of the dungeon.

I'd like the dragon tower in Mor dhona to be a giant, many floored tower dungeon with awesome bosses on each floor with XP and loot everywhere.

I'd like the Primal mobs that spawned from the dragon to randomly drop out of the sky and attack stuff/players/npcs. I don't care if it's biting Rift, i want that.

I'd like random dark towers to rise out of the ground and be dungeons that only last for a short time, like a few hours. You group up with whoever gets there and go in and try to beat the mega boss. Maybe later in the game you can get an item that predicts or spawns these dungeons.

I'd like the main cities to be attacked by the Garleans or anyone, really. Or at the very least, attack some of the outposts on the map that are currently there for no reason. I'd also like the Aetheryte camps to be raided, kind of a reverse Behest. And get rid of Behest as it is now, its retarded.

Battlewarden "Come kill a bunch of mobs over there"

Player: "Why?"

Battlewarden: "idk"

if the mobs attack the camp, we have a reason (aside from just xp) to fight them.





so yeah, stuff like that.

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 2:26am by Llester

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 2:28am by Llester



This guy should work for SE
____________________________
#7 Jan 17 2011 at 2:13 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
*
88 posts
daour wrote:
Llester wrote:
i'd like quests that take me to a dungeon, which i fight through with or without other people, encountering puzzles and challenging enemies and mini/megabosses. Basically i'd like a new version of Salvage from FFXI, but i want the mobs to actually give XP (and SP) and i want more of a storyline attached. Maybe an NPC or two that joins me and/or my party for all or part of the dungeon.

I'd like the dragon tower in Mor dhona to be a giant, many floored tower dungeon with awesome bosses on each floor with XP and loot everywhere.

I'd like the Primal mobs that spawned from the dragon to randomly drop out of the sky and attack stuff/players/npcs. I don't care if it's biting Rift, i want that.

I'd like random dark towers to rise out of the ground and be dungeons that only last for a short time, like a few hours. You group up with whoever gets there and go in and try to beat the mega boss. Maybe later in the game you can get an item that predicts or spawns these dungeons.

I'd like the main cities to be attacked by the Garleans or anyone, really. Or at the very least, attack some of the outposts on the map that are currently there for no reason. I'd also like the Aetheryte camps to be raided, kind of a reverse Behest. And get rid of Behest as it is now, its retarded.

Battlewarden "Come kill a bunch of mobs over there"

Player: "Why?"

Battlewarden: "idk"

if the mobs attack the camp, we have a reason (aside from just xp) to fight them.





so yeah, stuff like that.

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 2:26am by Llester

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 2:28am by Llester



This guy should work for SE


Should also be sterilized.
____________________________


DaevaofWar.com
#8 Jan 17 2011 at 2:49 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
Tankue wrote:
daour wrote:
Llester wrote:
i'd like quests that take me to a dungeon, which i fight through with or without other people, encountering puzzles and challenging enemies and mini/megabosses. Basically i'd like a new version of Salvage from FFXI, but i want the mobs to actually give XP (and SP) and i want more of a storyline attached. Maybe an NPC or two that joins me and/or my party for all or part of the dungeon.

I'd like the dragon tower in Mor dhona to be a giant, many floored tower dungeon with awesome bosses on each floor with XP and loot everywhere.

I'd like the Primal mobs that spawned from the dragon to randomly drop out of the sky and attack stuff/players/npcs. I don't care if it's biting Rift, i want that.

I'd like random dark towers to rise out of the ground and be dungeons that only last for a short time, like a few hours. You group up with whoever gets there and go in and try to beat the mega boss. Maybe later in the game you can get an item that predicts or spawns these dungeons.

I'd like the main cities to be attacked by the Garleans or anyone, really. Or at the very least, attack some of the outposts on the map that are currently there for no reason. I'd also like the Aetheryte camps to be raided, kind of a reverse Behest. And get rid of Behest as it is now, its retarded.

Battlewarden "Come kill a bunch of mobs over there"

Player: "Why?"

Battlewarden: "idk"

if the mobs attack the camp, we have a reason (aside from just xp) to fight them.





so yeah, stuff like that.

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 2:26am by Llester

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 2:28am by Llester



This guy should work for SE


Should also be sterilized.


idk sounds win/win to me.
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#9 Jan 17 2011 at 2:57 AM Rating: Decent
22 posts
Llester wrote:
i'd like quests that take me to a dungeon, which i fight through with or without other people, encountering puzzles and challenging enemies and mini/megabosses. Basically i'd like a new version of Salvage from FFXI, but i want the mobs to actually give XP (and SP) and i want more of a storyline attached. Maybe an NPC or two that joins me and/or my party for all or part of the dungeon.

I'd like the dragon tower in Mor dhona to be a giant, many floored tower dungeon with awesome bosses on each floor with XP and loot everywhere.

I'd like the Primal mobs that spawned from the dragon to randomly drop out of the sky and attack stuff/players/npcs. I don't care if it's biting Rift, i want that.

I'd like random dark towers to rise out of the ground and be dungeons that only last for a short time, like a few hours. You group up with whoever gets there and go in and try to beat the mega boss. Maybe later in the game you can get an item that predicts or spawns these dungeons.

I'd like the main cities to be attacked by the Garleans or anyone, really. Or at the very least, attack some of the outposts on the map that are currently there for no reason. I'd also like the Aetheryte camps to be raided, kind of a reverse Behest. And get rid of Behest as it is now, its retarded.

Battlewarden "Come kill a bunch of mobs over there"

Player: "Why?"

Battlewarden: "idk"

if the mobs attack the camp, we have a reason (aside from just xp) to fight them.





so yeah, stuff like that.

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 2:26am by Llester

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 2:28am by Llester



I really like this mindset as well.

While the leve system is often bashed, i do like the concept and the idea as an alternative, but yes options like you listed would be great.

An increase and challenge and somewhat of a purpose is what i feel is needed.

Even if it isn't some deep amount of content, the Garlean attack idea like you said or even raiding camps of the empire just because would make is so much more entertaining.
____________________________


#10 Jan 17 2011 at 3:07 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
Someone said in another thread that what the game needs is more of a feeling of connectedness. Maybe that's what that ridiculous SE comment about "making the content easier for the players to understand" was all about. I hope that's what they meant.

Either way I feel that the game needs to reach out to the player more, in whatever fashion. The ideas i posted above aren't particularly thought-out, or even original, just brainstorms. They all accomplish the goal of pulling the player into the game and giving them a stake (illusory or not) in what happens as a result of their actions(or reactions).



____________________________
monk
dragoon

#11 Jan 17 2011 at 3:40 AM Rating: Good
**
291 posts
I think that was me. ^^

I noticed you posted the same post in 2 threads, but I was too tired/lazy to repost.

Edit to Continue:

There's a story mission where you see Garlean soldiers literally invading the Black Shroud (sorry if this is too big a spoiler for you) but it bothers me immensely that outside of the main story missions, no one seems to give a crap. It's not mentioned in any other Class Quest that I've done. It seems like a pretty important event, yet, no one in the world cares and nothing reflects this. I could forget it even happened!

It just seems so dumb. Eorzea is supposed to be this exotic and dangerous place, but after the first impression of "oo this is pretty and exotic" it becomes rather peaceful and dull. I don't feel like I'm swept up in an adventure - almost ever. I hear in passing about beast tribes becoming more aggressive and Garlean invasion threatening the entire land, but I see no evidence of anyone even giving a crap about it. Most of my guild leves are about defeating gnats. They certainly aren't about repelling invasions.

I could see that coming, but the lack of it is very unfulfilling right now.

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 4:45am by Kirutaru
____________________________
Battle Mage Kiru
#12 Jan 17 2011 at 4:08 AM Rating: Excellent
*
211 posts
FFXI style. They were very close back during the raptor pt era, but the battle system needed tweaking to make regiments better, and to add to the diversity of the mobs to lvl on. I did like how they got rid of resting and stationary camps, while maintaining the MP management aspect, instead of making MP practically never ending like some MMO's.

Sadly, they pulled a 180 and then crashed the system into the ground... I can only hope they fix it eventually, and I'll wait till then to lvl another job. For now, I'm just enjoying the group experience of NM fights, and that's about it for FFXIV atm. I still think the game has tons of potential, I'm just worried they are gonna jump on the new mmo era mentality and make everything into dumbed down easy mode fetch quests and leve grinds.

At the very least they should add more leves, and take out the adjustable rating, so that some are only 1 star, while others are only 5 star, etc. The missions were also really disappointing...

Like seriously, if I wanted a solo game, I'd play an offline game... They offer a much better experience than any mmo... It's the team based experiences that makes mmo's what they are, and shunning that factor will be the death of the genre.
____________________________
PvR fun!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KYqooGHd2g




#13 Jan 17 2011 at 4:13 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
I think that was me. ^^

I noticed you posted the same post in 2 threads, but I was too tired/lazy to repost.

Edit to Continue:

There's a story mission where you see Garlean soldiers literally invading the Black Shroud (sorry if this is too big a spoiler for you) but it bothers me immensely that outside of the main story missions, no one seems to give a crap. It's not mentioned in any other Class Quest that I've done. It seems like a pretty important event, yet, no one in the world cares and nothing reflects this. I could forget it even happened!

It just seems so dumb. Eorzea is supposed to be this exotic and dangerous place, but after the first impression of "oo this is pretty and exotic" it becomes rather peaceful and dull. I don't feel like I'm swept up in an adventure - almost ever. I hear in passing about beast tribes becoming more aggressive and Garlean invasion threatening the entire land, but I see no evidence of anyone even giving a crap about it. Most of my guild leves are about defeating gnats. They certainly aren't about repelling invasions.

I could see that coming, but the lack of it is very unfulfilling right now.

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 4:45am by Kirutaru


yeah, that story mission was really fun because i was interacting with a palpable threat for a good reason, and i got xp...and the funny thing is, it wasn't even that well developed as a scenario. But i didn't (don't) care because it was enough to get me into the game. So more of that would be good.

As far as the peaceful dull world i 100% agree, and as i've stated before, SE would be smart to use this to their advantage by providing something to violently break the humdrum to bits from time to time.

Another idea would be to go all Zelda(or Abyssea, really) and do the Dark World/Light World thing. Portals to messed up dark versions of the game world where there's actually stuff to do. And maybe the dragon from Mor Dhona (bahamut i assume) is alive there. The people who are enjoying the game as is could enjoy the peaceful dull stuff and everyone else could go do missions and NMs in Dark Eorzea(or whatever) and come back to chill out and be social.

It's not the solution i'd necessarily like to see, but SE would probably get a lot of bang for their buck. And it certainly worked in XI. A little too well maybe.

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 5:14am by Llester

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 5:16am by Llester
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#14 Jan 17 2011 at 4:17 AM Rating: Good
****
9,526 posts
I am sick of guildleves. Trufax.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#15 Jan 17 2011 at 4:28 AM Rating: Excellent
**
568 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I am sick of guildleves. Trufax.


Me too.

Field of Valor is a bit more compelling in the way it has that nice xp boost and collecting tabs for those lovely buffs was addicting.

Imagine getting a "Refresh" from an Aerythe with your mage-class. That would be heavenly if there was some challenging mobs to use it on.
#16 Jan 17 2011 at 4:33 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
imagine doing anything cool and fun without having to sign up with an npc or talk to a crystal first.


Aetheryte: "here is your content. you have 30 minutes to go complete your content. that is all. "

Player: *kills 6 dodos*

Aetheryte: "here is your reward. thank you for participating in your prescribed content. end of line."
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#17 Jan 17 2011 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
437 posts
I think that if players want to solo grind the same mobs over and over they should be able to.

If people want a quick casual zerg fest and kill a bunch of monsters not attacking a camp they should also be able to.

but I think that there should also be a better way, a more rewarding way, a more challenging way, that is the XI style people grouping together, combining their unique skills or strengths to kill tough monsters and be rewarded for it, leveling or ranking up faster than the previous two options.

but i'm sure people will be crying when the coblyn/doblyn farming gets nerfed.
____________________________

Metin - Phoenix - BLM75 WHM48 Retired

http://cojenova.enjin.com/ff14forum

#18 Jan 17 2011 at 7:22 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
*
97 posts
I want to see proper challenging mobs that require a party to take down and give effecient SP (this should be the fastest method of gaining SP, and in the FFXI style the better your party make up / coordination then the better the SP / Hour rate)

I also like the fact that currently soloing is viable (this is something that didnt really exist in FFXI except for particular jobs (I here this did change after I left ffxi)

But mostly I want to see those silly little quests that sent you all over the place collecting this and that, visiting someone, maybe having an instanced battle e.t.c maybe just a kill x gather x, but with a little storyline and non repeatable. Those quests were what I enjoyed most in FFXI, they sometimes gave good rewards, or led to important quests that would later give really good pieces of gear. Mostly it was about the storyline and cutscenes but I enjoyed that and get a fleeting glimpse of it each time I get a quest in FFXIV (admittedly the graphics / emotions of the npcs and facial expressions in FFXIV are so much better and hence it seems crazy that we dont have those little sidequests to do given this has all been programmed in). Those quests give a game depth and complete immersion in the world, something almost all MMOS fail to do. FFXI did it brilliantly in fact in my opinion better than any other game out there... repeat that please.
____________________________
FFXIV : Khaap Keha : THM(Bodhum) In progress and enjoying it so far.
FFXI : Khaap : 75BLM, 75NIN Retired (sadly and it was purely down to graphics)



#19 Jan 17 2011 at 8:18 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
*
194 posts
Quote:
How do you wanna level?


Faster.

I don't care if the most efficient SP comes from hitting a training dummy, just make the process less grindy and time consuming. SE has created a really innovative system in which we are permitted and encouraged to level multiple jobs and dabble in all three spheres of gameplay (DoW/M, DoL, DoH) on a single character.

But to achieve any modicum of success in any job, you have to sink an exorbitant amount of time into leveling. People know there is no real "endgame" in XIV and they don't hold it against SE when they get there (at least not yet...) Everyone I know that has capped something just moves on to work on another job. Making the leveling process faster won't cost SE subscriptions; with the horizontal leveling system in place, there's plenty to do even in the absence of a real "endgame".

TLDR version; make leveling faster.
#20 Jan 17 2011 at 8:37 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
447 posts
thejones wrote:
Quote:
How do you wanna level?


Faster.

I don't care if the most efficient SP comes from hitting a training dummy, just make the process less grindy and time consuming. SE has created a really innovative system in which we are permitted and encouraged to level multiple jobs and dabble in all three spheres of gameplay (DoW/M, DoL, DoH) on a single character.

But to achieve any modicum of success in any job, you have to sink an exorbitant amount of time into leveling. People know there is no real "endgame" in XIV and they don't hold it against SE when they get there (at least not yet...) Everyone I know that has capped something just moves on to work on another job. Making the leveling process faster won't cost SE subscriptions; with the horizontal leveling system in place, there's plenty to do even in the absence of a real "endgame".

TLDR version; make leveling faster.


The speed of leveling is not the issue, in my opinion. It's all relative.

If there were a large amount of engaging stuff to do at each and every rank, the long haul to 50 wouldn't be a problem.

Non-spoiler/spoiler: There's nothing to do at 50, either. What's the rush?
____________________________
Djigga, please. Highland Hyurs can't jump.

#21 Jan 17 2011 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
***
1,146 posts
I agree with what has been said so far. While Eorzea aims to be a realistic game for adults it certainly feels like playing erm...Harvest Moon or such? There is no danger, there is no thrill.
You can or can't get to all outposts with little problems. If you can't it's because when you walk around the corner the mobs suddenly change from pokemon to wtfpwnmode and rip you apart. That's not exciting that's just bad gamedesign.

I'd love to go out and kill low level mobs for farming with little SP gain and gather a few people to defeat the really dangerous horrors lurking in the shadows for the thrill and good SP.
There is no difference between fighting either of them atm except the high level mole will kill you while you wipe the floor with Ogres. There isn't much tactic involved, stats seem to be pretty useless except for HP/MP and the only thing that really matters is how high your class rank is.

Leve linking is a nice idea and is pretty funny to do but many leves aren't worth it.
Grinding mobs in a group can be ok but most of the time you're better off grinding solo which is especially bad for an MMO.
Behest is ok but as someone already said, the claim mechanics and the mindless slaughter in behests prevents them from being good.

I'd like:
- low level mobs for farming materials (only low shard drop rate or none at all)
- mid level mobs for farming/solo SP gain (what coblyns/doblyns are right now)
- high level mobs for group SP gain with a bonus over solo SP and the ability to chain mobs for another increase of SP/EXP gain and more shard drops
- NPC missions/quests with a story rewarding you with some sort of teaching for your class giving you either SP or some guildmarks for your class
- let the beastmen attack outposts and take control over them preventing players from porting there and removing the NPCs to turn in leves, reward participating players with anima if the defense or the reclaim of the outpost is successful
- get rid of the laggy/buggy/callitwhateveryouwant regimen system and give us working skillchains

I did like the old SP system where you would be rewarded for your work. Just combine the current system of a fixed ammount of SP with the previous one and split the exp gained equally among party members.
____________________________

Final Fantasy XI
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Name: Kyana (retired)
Jobs: THF75 PLD70 BST70

#22 Jan 17 2011 at 9:22 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
*
194 posts
Quote:
The speed of leveling is not the issue, in my opinion. It's all relative.


Correct. How "fast" or "slow" leveling feels to you subjectively depends on how often you ding and how much you play.

If you have 5-6 hours per day to play, you get plenty of rank ups in a given day/week/month and I'm sure leveling feels fast to you. If you can only play 2-3 days per week for 2-3 hours at a clip, leveling feels WAY too slow.

I'm well aware that there isn't much to do at 50. That being said, as a 32THM with limited playtime, my "dings" are very few and far between. Give me some rested XP/SP or something. SE has to help the casuals out with a cookie or something to keep us playing.
#23 Jan 17 2011 at 10:04 AM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
I think that in terms of what people want to see changed, some people are looking at things the wrong way. Too many folks want to be rewarded simply because they accepted a group invite. It doesn't work that way. If you want more than a solo player, you have to accomplish more than a solo player and FFXIV is already set up to reward you for doing so to the tune of a 40% SP bonus for being in a group. So it's not that the SP numbers on their own don't favor grouping to grind on common mobs. It's that you can't tune for group play with common mobs and still have those mobs as something that a solo player can grind on. There's tuning of the SP system, and then there's tuning of the mobs themselves and it's not the same thing. And it can't be the same thing. It's not nearly so simple as some folks seem to be convinced of.

There are two things SE could do to reduce player frustration around the SP system. The first is to get rid of the SP cut at rank 20. The heart of the issue has nothing to do with how you gain SP and everything to do with how much SP you gain. The game is tuned to be an excessive grind no matter how you go about it unless you've got a vast pool of players to draw from in order to keep a steady stream of leves linked and rolling. That's not practical. It's not a realistic expectation for SE to have of the players and they need to tune the game with that in mind. In typical SE fashion, they've taken a simple concept and complicated the **** out of it for no good reason other than trying to reinvent the wheel and they've failed.

The only other viable alternative is for SE to provide straightforward, on-demand group content. Leves are not it. Leves are not on-demand. Leves are gated. And if you and your friends are out of leves, that's it. No more group content for you until the reset.

If you're off somewhere in the world in a group and you're having fun with the combat mechanics and aren't left feeling like you're trying to fill a bucket with an eye dropper for every rank, you're not going to care what Joe Solo gets or, if you do, you need to just worry about what you're doing and get your nose out of everyone else' business. It's when people go off to do this or that and they are neither particularly enjoying the process nor feeling like that process is getting them closer to where they want to be at a reasonable pace that folks start getting their knickers in a knot, but all this flailing and hypothesizing and complicating of the issue doesn't help. SP gain is grindy. That's all there is to it. Tone down the grind and most folks would be happy. Provide groups with real, properly tuned group content and they'll be happy in groups. Provide only limited group content and then gate it and people who like to group are going to be unhappy.

I've never played an MMO that arbitrarily slashes the SP/XP you gain at a certain rank/level "just because". The best theory I've heard so far is that SE did it so that PS3 players don't show up to a world filled with PC players with 7 classes at 50 and no interest in joining with the PS3 players for lower ranked goodness. I could buy that to a certain degree, but in the end SE has put themselves between a rock and a hard place because you can't make one group of players unhappy for months and months just to keep a leash on them for the sake of the players who will be buying the game when it ships on another platform when there's not even a release date for that platform yet.

It just seems to me right now that the consequences of everything we've been aware of for months now with regards to the game being incomplete and full of systems based on concepts that just don't work are greater than we might have once thought. I think SE knows it. I think at this point the game is back in the pre-alpha stages in terms of rules and content design and the people who stay and keep playing through this process are just sort of hanging around. I don't see SE making the game any less grindy any time soon. And I don't see them being able to add enough content in the near future to bring the game to a point where it could stand in the market as an equal with other MMOs. I think SE can accomplish this given enough time but as far as the players currently playing, time moves differently. For a development studio to (for example) put a 3-6 month timeframe on needed changes and additions is not a big deal. For a player to continue playing through that 3-6 months waiting for those changes and additions is something else entirely.

Provide entertaining content and a leveling curve that offers the sense of steady progress as players move through that content and SE will be fine. It doesn't have to be about solo vs. group or any of that. And the more the players get themselves worked up with all these complications on top of complications the more ****** off they're going to be when their notion of adequate doesn't materialize. It just has to be fun.
#24 Jan 17 2011 at 6:18 PM Rating: Default
*
211 posts
Relatively bad party SP should still be better than relatively good solo SP... And decent party SP should make good solo sp look like standing around afk. Like in FFXI. Some parties got bad sp, but people would still try to make it work, because solo sp for most classes was garbage. Make solo play viable, and the community turns into crap that will bail and play solo the instant things don't go great for them. I personally think the game should be built against that type of player. Work together or fail horribly, that should be the mantra for any good mmo.

They should not make solo play viable for people who want to solo... Period... They should make it viable for people who want to party, but who only have like 20 minutes to play at that given time. So fine, make the leves good sp solo. You can do a couple of those, and after that, your solo sp falls to a pittance, but by then your time would be up anyway. Later when you get home from school/work/whatever, you can get in a party for a couple hours or something.

The people who want to actually play through the whole game solo should go find another game to play. They would be happier, and the game designers could stop worrying about breaking the game trying to cater to them. We just don't need those types of people to have a great game, SE needs to focus on putting out the content that will draw it's real player-base in, rather than the features that will keep a few stray mmo-newbs around until the next latest greatest thing pulls them away, leaving us with a game that's built for people who quit.
____________________________
PvR fun!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KYqooGHd2g




#25 Jan 17 2011 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
Aurelius wrote:
I've never played an MMO that arbitrarily slashes the SP/XP you gain at a certain rank/level "just because". The best theory I've heard so far is that SE did it so that PS3 players don't show up to a world filled with PC players with 7 classes at 50 and no interest in joining with the PS3 players for lower ranked goodness. I could buy that to a certain degree, but in the end SE has put themselves between a rock and a hard place because you can't make one group of players unhappy for months and months just to keep a leash on them for the sake of the players who will be buying the game when it ships on another platform when there's not even a release date for that platform yet.


Honestly, I don't like any excuse that they're doing XYZ because otherwise it could affect the way the PS3 players feel when they join.

If that was really that important to them, they should have postponed the game's release until the game actually -was- release ready and then released it on both platforms together.

It's not fair to PS3 players that their release date is practically in the realm of "Duke Nukem Whenever", and it's not fair to PC3 players that they would cut our legs off at the knees because when they finally let the PS3 players join the race, they don't want them to think the race is over.

At this point, I'd almost be content to say "Let the PS3 players play if they really want to." but I think that SE is holding off as long as possible on PS3 so that they can put their best foot forward.

Shame they didn't extend the same courtesy to PC players.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#26 Jan 17 2011 at 6:59 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
Tiger228 wrote:
Relatively bad party SP should still be better than relatively good solo SP...


No, no it shouldn't. You should be earning whatever reward you get, not having it handed to you because you accepted a group invite and tagged along on a rolling band of dumb. And there are enough people who agree with me that XIV would suffer even more losses if SE were to change their approach regarding solo play. You need to think things through and stop to consider what you're really asking for. Either you're asking for solo progression to be so slow as to be considered non-viable, or you're asking for progression in a "decent" group so fast that people run out of things to do and get bored and leave the game.

Quote:
And decent party SP should make good solo sp look like standing around afk. Like in FFXI. Some parties got bad sp, but people would still try to make it work, because solo sp for most classes was garbage. Make solo play viable, and the community turns into crap that will bail and play solo the instant things don't go great for them. I personally think the game should be built against that type of player. Work together or fail horribly, that should be the mantra for any good mmo.


If good to you is the same as "business failure" in the eyes of a contemporary MMO developer, you might be on to something.

Quote:
They should not make solo play viable for people who want to solo... Period... They should make it viable for people who want to party, but who only have like 20 minutes to play at that given time. So fine, make the leves good sp solo. You can do a couple of those, and after that, your solo sp falls to a pittance, but by then your time would be up anyway. Later when you get home from school/work/whatever, you can get in a party for a couple hours or something.


Or they could just make it so that regardless of whether or not you feel like grouping you can log in for however long you have available and enjoy yourself.

Quote:
The people who want to actually play through the whole game solo should go find another game to play. They would be happier, and the game designers could stop worrying about breaking the game trying to cater to them. We just don't need those types of people to have a great game, SE needs to focus on putting out the content that will draw it's real player-base in, rather than the features that will keep a few stray mmo-newbs around until the next latest greatest thing pulls them away, leaving us with a game that's built for people who quit.


"Real" player base? Really? If that "real" player base consists of ******** like you, SE can have their game and their 30k players.
#27 Jan 17 2011 at 8:30 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,539 posts
Aurelius wrote:
Tiger228 wrote:
Relatively bad party SP should still be better than relatively good solo SP...


No, no it shouldn't. You should be earning whatever reward you get, not having it handed to you because you accepted a group invite and tagged along on a rolling band of dumb. And there are enough people who agree with me that XIV would suffer even more losses if SE were to change their approach regarding solo play. You need to think things through and stop to consider what you're really asking for. Either you're asking for solo progression to be so slow as to be considered non-viable, or you're asking for progression in a "decent" group so fast that people run out of things to do and get bored and leave the game.


I'm siding with Aurelius on this one. IMO a good party's XP should be better than good solo XP, but bad party XP should not be better than good solo XP. There is a certain point at which a bad party is worth leaving and soloing instead. While I prefer partying, SE realized in FFXI that making soloing completely unviable is a bad idea if you want happy players.

Aurelius wrote:
Quote:
And decent party SP should make good solo sp look like standing around afk. Like in FFXI. Some parties got bad sp, but people would still try to make it work, because solo sp for most classes was garbage. Make solo play viable, and the community turns into crap that will bail and play solo the instant things don't go great for them. I personally think the game should be built against that type of player. Work together or fail horribly, that should be the mantra for any good mmo.


If good to you is the same as "business failure" in the eyes of a contemporary MMO developer, you might be on to something.


There is a way to make solo play viable while still making party play preferable. You don't need to make solo play completely infeasible. Give players a reason to want to group and they usually will. "Soloing is terrible" is not an acceptable reason to group.

While I will disagree with Aurelius in the notion that I don't think it should be possible to solo to cap (and he and I have gone back and forth on this), he is right when he says that inability to solo at all will result in the game being a failure in terms of financial success. You'll be left with a niche game that only appeals to certain people, and SE has said that they want FFXIV to appeal to casual players. I think that in many regards they don't fully understand the concept of casual players, but I don't think you're going to see SE revamping the game to intentionally make it unfriendly towards their target audience.

Might as well make a game that's focused on PvP and then four months later remove the ability to attack other players. It's called bait and switch and it does not earn you a happy playerbase.

If you like group play, then fine. I love group play too. I'd definitely prefer a group over solo any day and would like a game that emphasizes soloing. FFXIV is not that game though.

Aurelius wrote:
Quote:
The people who want to actually play through the whole game solo should go find another game to play. They would be happier, and the game designers could stop worrying about breaking the game trying to cater to them. We just don't need those types of people to have a great game, SE needs to focus on putting out the content that will draw it's real player-base in, rather than the features that will keep a few stray mmo-newbs around until the next latest greatest thing pulls them away, leaving us with a game that's built for people who quit.


"Real" player base? Really? If that "real" player base consists of @#%^s like you, SE can have their game and their 30k players.


Restating the previous point: SE has announced from the start that FFXIV would be a decidedly different game than XI. While it's possible they could redo the game from scratch, it's extremely unlikely that it will involve changing the game to be heavily party based from start to finish like XI was. It's also a bit patronizing to refer to only the group of players who play the way you like as the "real player-base". Again, I'm not a fan of the idea that someone should be able to solo to cap, but that's the type of game this is and I either need to accept that and deal with it or I need to move on. As do you.

For further reading pleasure, Aurelius and I hashed this very same argument out a while back in this thread.

Read it over and note the points that either of us make and you'll understand why even though I agree with where you're coming from, I still say you're not likely to get what you're looking for.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#28 Jan 17 2011 at 8:43 PM Rating: Decent
Sage
**
447 posts
Aurelius wrote:
The first is to get rid of the SP cut at rank 20.


I've seen you claim this many, many times on the forums. Ironically, (or perhaps not), I've also never once seen you back this observational claim up with one of those 'empirical tests' - you one, the ones that you like to call for whenever you disagree with a point someone is trying to make.

So, Aurelius, where is your *evidence* that SP is halved at rank 20? SE has never said themselves that this is the mechanic, so then the burden of proof is on he who is making the claim, at least that's what I've learned from you in these forums.

Well then, how can you possibly claim this is positively true without an exhaustive test that shows it as such? Either present exhaustive test data, or stop harping on others who don't have formal statistic hypotheses and linear regressions to back up their forum posts.

Yes, I'm calling you out because this is a blatant act of hypocrisy on your part. Of course, if you can show me evidence you have, or point me to a link where SE says that SP is indeed halved at R20 (not nominally, but per mob, as you've claimed here and elsewhere), then I'll shut up and walk away with my tail between my legs.
____________________________
Djigga, please. Highland Hyurs can't jump.

#29 Jan 17 2011 at 9:04 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
volta1 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
The first is to get rid of the SP cut at rank 20.


I've seen you claim this many, many times on the forums. Ironically, (or perhaps not), I've also never once seen you back this observational claim up with one of those 'empirical tests' - you one, the ones that you like to call for whenever you disagree with a point someone is trying to make.

So, Aurelius, where is your *evidence* that SP is halved at rank 20? SE has never said themselves that this is the mechanic, so then the burden of proof is on he who is making the claim, at least that's what I've learned from you in these forums.

Well then, how can you possibly claim this is positively true without an exhaustive test that shows it as such? Either present exhaustive test data, or stop harping on others who don't have formal statistic hypotheses and linear regressions to back up their forum posts.

Yes, I'm calling you out because this is a blatant act of hypocrisy on your part. Of course, if you can show me evidence you have, or point me to a link where SE says that SP is indeed halved at R20 (not nominally, but per mob, as you've claimed here and elsewhere), then I'll shut up and walk away with my tail between my legs.


Blatant act of hypocrisy in pointing out what can be readily observed by anyone who is grinding away at rank 19 and then all of a sudden they hit rank 20 and the next mob they kill grants half the SP it would have given them a few minutes before? Really? You think you need exhaustive testing to observe that? Look, if you're sulking around nursing a grudge just looking for an excuse to blast me for something, be smart about it. Now get your tail between your legs and go back to sulking.
#30 Jan 17 2011 at 9:06 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
447 posts
Ha, thought so.
____________________________
Djigga, please. Highland Hyurs can't jump.

#31 Jan 17 2011 at 9:12 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
volta1 wrote:
Ha, thought so.


I suppose you need a link to an official statement from SE telling you that dodos have beaks, too.
#32 Jan 17 2011 at 9:18 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
447 posts
Aurelius wrote:
volta1 wrote:
Ha, thought so.


I suppose you need a link to an official statement from SE telling you that dodos have beaks, too.


Honest question, Aurelius - are you willing to provide the Lodestone link to your character? So we can see how valid all this astute observational testing of yours really is?

Now, I don't have a single battle class above R20 except LNC. I don't, I can admit it, and anyone can verify that by clicking my sig. However, just about all my craft classes are above 20, and I have never noticed this "cutesy mechanic" as you've stated elsewhere of half SP gain after rank 20. I certainly didn't have any more trouble leveling LNC from 20-38 above and beyond the nominal SP required to level, and scaling up the mobs I fight accordingly. I can't outright deny that killing the same mob at 19 and 20 yields half SP, but I *CAN* outright deny that doing the same craft at 19 and 20 certainly does not.

So, where is your proof? How is your claim any different than anyone else's experiential anecdotes in the forums? You clearly get your panties in a twist if anyone challenges your heralded beliefs. If you believe yourself that much more high and mighty than everyone else, that the rules you cite do not even apply to you, well...
____________________________
Djigga, please. Highland Hyurs can't jump.

#33 Jan 17 2011 at 9:31 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
volta1 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
volta1 wrote:
Ha, thought so.


I suppose you need a link to an official statement from SE telling you that dodos have beaks, too.


Honest question, Aurelius - are you willing to provide the Lodestone link to your character? So we can see how valid all this astute observational testing of yours really is?

Now, I don't have a single battle class above R20 except LNC. I don't, I can admit it, and anyone can verify that by clicking my sig. However, just about all my craft classes are above 20, and I have never noticed this "cutesy mechanic" as you've stated elsewhere of half SP gain after rank 20. I certainly didn't have any more trouble leveling LNC from 20-38 above and beyond the nominal SP required to level, and scaling up the mobs I fight accordingly. I can't outright deny that killing the same mob at 19 and 20 yields half SP, but I *CAN* outright deny that doing the same craft at 19 and 20 certainly does not.

So, where is your proof? How is your claim any different than anyone else's experiential anecdotes in the forums? You clearly get your panties in a twist if anyone challenges your heralded beliefs. If you believe yourself that much more high and mighty than everyone else, that the rules you cite do not even apply to you, well...


I'm not talking about crafting SP. Crafting SP and combat SP are entirely different calculations. Combat SP is a static value. If you kill a dodo that cons green to you at rank 14 and then you go kill another green dodo at rank 14 you're going to earn the same SP. Crafting has a variance of approximately +/- 40% from the median value.

I don't post links to my game characters on ZAM. I haven't for years. I can tell you that I have armorer at 39, LW at 31, weaver/alchemy/goldsmithing between 25 and 30, blacksmith at 23, and woodworking/culinarian in the teens. I also have a 21 GLA, 20 CON, and 20 THM...three classes that I ranked from the mid-late teens to 20 in a weekend. There's a difference between those things that are readily observable and those things that require testing to eliminate random influences. The SP cut at 20 for combat classes is readily observable. Your theories around crafting that I've challenged are not. If you can't tell the difference, go back and brush up on your Scientific Method 101. It's not hard.
#34 Jan 17 2011 at 9:39 PM Rating: Decent
Sage
**
447 posts
I'm not "ready" to observe this halved SP, apparently. I haven't noticed it, and frankly, I'm not convinced it exists. Short of testing, my own or someone else's, as simple as it may be, I don't have to believe it, just as no one else has to believe anything the read on the internet.

Honestly, a number of things could affect your perceived diminished SP gain. Other have theorized on these forums that it's the STR of the mob that effects both the target display color (blue vs. green. vs. yellow orb next to name) and the SP earned. Of course, this hasn't been exhaustively tested to many people's standards.

But really, maybe 'half' the SP you think you lost was due to the optimal rank of the gear you were wearing at the time? You dinged 20, your gear became more optimal, and thus you earned less SP due to being at an advantage relative to the mob? Not unreasonable. Without an exhaustive, controlled sample, or even a single instance of a combat log and your equip at the time, how can you expect anyone to know what the **** you're talking about?

There are many variables that you're not controlling for which aren't 'readily observed' which can reasonably affect SP gain. You seem 'ready' to dismiss these, though, as they don't coincide with what you've previously stated.

Edit: changes to third paragraph, for clarity.

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 10:43pm by volta1
____________________________
Djigga, please. Highland Hyurs can't jump.

#35 Jan 17 2011 at 9:49 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
volta1 wrote:
I'm not "ready" to observe this halved SP, apparently. I haven't noticed it, and frankly, I'm not convinced it exists. Short of testing, my own or someone else's, as simple as it may be, I don't have to believe it, just as no one else has to believe anything the read on the internet.

Honestly, a number of things could affect your perceived diminished SP gain. Other have theorized on these forums that it's the STR of the mob that effects both the target display color (blue vs. green. vs. yellow orb next to name) and the SP earned. Of course, this hasn't been exhaustively tested to many people's standards.

But really, maybe 'half' the SP you think you lost was due to the optimal rank of the gear you were wearing at the time? You dinged 20, your gear became more optimal, and thus you earned less SP due to being at an advantage relative to the mob? Not unreasonable. Without an exhaustive, controlled sample, or even a single instance of a combat log and your equip at the time, how can you expect anyone to know what the **** you're talking about?

There are many variables that you're not controlling for which aren't 'readily observed' which can reasonably affect SP gain. You seem 'ready' to dismiss these, though, as they don't coincide with what you've previously stated.

Edit: changes to third paragraph, for clarity.


Wow. Reaching a little far afield, aren't you?

I've never seen anything from anyone indicating that gear or stats influence SP gain from mobs since the patch that changed it to static gain at the end of the fight. Nothing even close. In fact, I think I saw someone bring it up once and they were quickly proven wrong. Easily observable being what it is and all. How do you do an exhaustive, controlled sample of something that you observe very easily within 5 mobs kills of hitting rank 20? What kind of exhaustive testing do you think you need to do?

Three classes. Three different weapons. Two different sets of gear. All that time spent grinding on the same mobs in the same area from rank 16-19 on three different classes to get a feel for what the SP gain is from the various different mobs and their various different rank ranges and then on all three classes as soon as I hit 20 and the SP gain is halved and you think you need more testing than that?

I had hoped that maybe you were an intelligent person that just got a little caught up with this theory that you so wanted to be right that you lost your objectivity and then got a little butthurt but now I'm not so sure. Again, if you can't tell the difference between readily observable and not readily observable, that's not my failing. Don't try to make it my failing. You want proof? Take a support class for your main to rank 20. That's all you need to do. Go from 15 or 16 to 20 in the same area on the same mobs. After you hit 20, kill another half dozen or so of those same mobs. If you can't see the cut, you may need professional help of some sort.
#36 Jan 17 2011 at 9:54 PM Rating: Decent
Sage
**
447 posts
I can see the difference in your example as well as you can see your hypocrisy. Let's leave it at that :)
____________________________
Djigga, please. Highland Hyurs can't jump.

#37 Jan 17 2011 at 9:56 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
volta1 wrote:
I can see the difference in your example as well as you can see your hypocrisy. Let's leave it at that :)


Ya, let's leave it at that. If you can't tell the difference, this will not end well for you.
#38 Jan 17 2011 at 10:03 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
***
1,609 posts
I honestly don't care as long as i have the option to solo/duo with my husband.
____________________________


"I've never watched a nuclear explosion myself. That's a couple of degrees of stupid above my limit"- Old Man Harris
#39 Jan 18 2011 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
**
291 posts
I have a CNJ at 19. When I work to put him at 20 later this week I will do some testing of this and spend all my leveling killing the same mob, probably a green one if I can find a good mob to work off of. No changes to gear, assigning stat points, or anything will be made. Just kill the same mob for 3k sp before 20 and for another 3k sp after.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 2:40pm by NayliaMR
____________________________

#40 Jan 18 2011 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
*
146 posts
AtmaWeapon0 wrote:
Llester wrote:
i'd like quests that take me to a dungeon, which i fight through with or without other people, encountering puzzles and challenging enemies and mini/megabosses. Basically i'd like a new version of Salvage from FFXI, but i want the mobs to actually give XP (and SP) and i want more of a storyline attached. Maybe an NPC or two that joins me and/or my party for all or part of the dungeon.

I'd like the dragon tower in Mor dhona to be a giant, many floored tower dungeon with awesome bosses on each floor with XP and loot everywhere.

I'd like the Primal mobs that spawned from the dragon to randomly drop out of the sky and attack stuff/players/npcs. I don't care if it's biting Rift, i want that.

I'd like random dark towers to rise out of the ground and be dungeons that only last for a short time, like a few hours. You group up with whoever gets there and go in and try to beat the mega boss. Maybe later in the game you can get an item that predicts or spawns these dungeons.

I'd like the main cities to be attacked by the Garleans or anyone, really. Or at the very least, attack some of the outposts on the map that are currently there for no reason. I'd also like the Aetheryte camps to be raided, kind of a reverse Behest. And get rid of Behest as it is now, its retarded.

Battlewarden "Come kill a bunch of mobs over there"

Player: "Why?"

Battlewarden: "idk"

if the mobs attack the camp, we have a reason (aside from just xp) to fight them.





so yeah, stuff like that.

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 2:26am by Llester

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 2:28am by Llester



I really like this mindset as well.

While the leve system is often bashed, i do like the concept and the idea as an alternative, but yes options like you listed would be great.

An increase and challenge and somewhat of a purpose is what i feel is needed.

Even if it isn't some deep amount of content, the Garlean attack idea like you said or even raiding camps of the empire just because would make is so much more entertaining.


From my point of view the Leves are just an upgrade over doing pages in FFXI. It's good, but should not be the main way to level.

I don't like comparing to FFXI too much, but the skill ups you got (evasion, dark magic, polearm) only when fighting much higher level mobs were kind of forcing you to fight challenging monsters even tho you could level up just fine sync'ed in the dunes.

Attack, accuracy would be just ridiculous if the skill was not up to date, and you needed the skill ups to unlock new weapon skills.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 3:15pm by northernsky
#41 Jan 18 2011 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
*
146 posts
NayliaMR wrote:
I have a CNJ at 19. When I work to put him at 20 later this week I will do some testing of this and spend all my leveling killing the same mob, probably a green one if I can find a good mob to work off of. No changes to gear, assigning stat points, or anything will be made. Just kill the same mob for 3k sp before 20 and for another 3k sp after.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 2:40pm by NayliaMR


I have gone through this last week. Not sure it is halved (for normal mobs), but the decline is important.

The leves mobs are a different story, the decrease is spectacular. I could get 750sp per kill on a yellow with my Arc rank 12 while I get like 180 sp on red mobs with my Lnc 24.

Not so sure if 20 is definitely the breakpoint tho, but it would make sense with SE claiming that they wanted people to reach 20 faster.
#42 Jan 18 2011 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
northernsky wrote:
AtmaWeapon0 wrote:
Llester wrote:
i'd like quests that take me to a dungeon, which i fight through with or without other people, encountering puzzles and challenging enemies and mini/megabosses. Basically i'd like a new version of Salvage from FFXI, but i want the mobs to actually give XP (and SP) and i want more of a storyline attached. Maybe an NPC or two that joins me and/or my party for all or part of the dungeon.

I'd like the dragon tower in Mor dhona to be a giant, many floored tower dungeon with awesome bosses on each floor with XP and loot everywhere.

I'd like the Primal mobs that spawned from the dragon to randomly drop out of the sky and attack stuff/players/npcs. I don't care if it's biting Rift, i want that.

I'd like random dark towers to rise out of the ground and be dungeons that only last for a short time, like a few hours. You group up with whoever gets there and go in and try to beat the mega boss. Maybe later in the game you can get an item that predicts or spawns these dungeons.

I'd like the main cities to be attacked by the Garleans or anyone, really. Or at the very least, attack some of the outposts on the map that are currently there for no reason. I'd also like the Aetheryte camps to be raided, kind of a reverse Behest. And get rid of Behest as it is now, its retarded.

Battlewarden "Come kill a bunch of mobs over there"

Player: "Why?"

Battlewarden: "idk"

if the mobs attack the camp, we have a reason (aside from just xp) to fight them.





so yeah, stuff like that.

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 2:26am by Llester

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 2:28am by Llester



I really like this mindset as well.

While the leve system is often bashed, i do like the concept and the idea as an alternative, but yes options like you listed would be great.

An increase and challenge and somewhat of a purpose is what i feel is needed.

Even if it isn't some deep amount of content, the Garlean attack idea like you said or even raiding camps of the empire just because would make is so much more entertaining.


From my point of view the Leves are just an upgrade over doing pages in FFXI. It's good, but should not be the main way to level.

I don't like comparing to FFXI too much, but the skill ups you got (evasion, dark magic, polearm) only when fighting much higher level mobs were kind of forcing you to fight challenging monsters even tho you could level up just fine sync'ed in the dunes.

Attack, accuracy would be just ridiculous if the skill was not up to date, and you needed the skill ups to unlock new weapon skills.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 3:15pm by northernsky


To this point: I think that getting rid of weapon skill was overall a good thing.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#43 Jan 18 2011 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
*
146 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
[/quote]

To this point: I think that getting rid of weapon skill was overall a good thing.


Could you elaborate a bit?
I mean, why getting rid of them would be good?
And by pretending they got rid of them, you mean that you see FFXI weapon skills differently from current TP moves?
#44 Jan 18 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,104 posts
Llester wrote:
I'd like the dragon tower in Mor dhona to be a giant, many floored tower dungeon with awesome bosses on each floor with XP and loot everywhere.
Preach it brother.

Just a SINGLE r50 dungeon with some good fights and interesting mechanics would have worked wonders.


Edited, Jan 18th 2011 9:04pm by Timorith
____________________________

Melaahna Valiera
#45 Jan 18 2011 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
northernsky wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
To this point: I think that getting rid of weapon skill was overall a good thing.


Could you elaborate a bit?
I mean, why getting rid of them would be good?
And by pretending they got rid of them, you mean that you see FFXI weapon skills differently from current TP moves?


Well, with FFXI, you had multiple weapons that could be equipped across multiple jobs. A RDM and PLD could both use sword skill. A THF and DNC could both use dagger skill. A BLM and RDM both used elemental and enfeebling, etc...

This lead to two things: One is that your weapon and skill was independent of your level and two was that each class had different proficiencies and ranks in the skill (and if it was under B, usually you didn't bother using it)

With FFXIV, each class has their own unique weapon, so adding a weapon skill level on top of their class rank SP is just redundant. Your "rank" is essentially your weapon skill level.

Since you no longer have weapons that are usable cross class, skill level would be irrelevant anyway and you don't have to worry about "Oh, I -can- use that weapon, but I'm only a D rank so I won't bother" related crap.

Weapon skill works well in games like XI or WoW where classes can use multiple weapons, but when you can only use one weapon per class, it's redundant to have a class rank AND a weapon skill.

Edit: OHHHH I see what you mean.

I meant "The skill level of your weapon", as in Sword 150 or Enfeebling 200 or Guard 25 (lolguard). Not "Weapons Skills" as in "Abilities you use with TP.

I understand your confusion now.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 4:14pm by Mikhalia
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#46 Jan 18 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
*
146 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
northernsky wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
To this point: I think that getting rid of weapon skill was overall a good thing.


Could you elaborate a bit?
I mean, why getting rid of them would be good?
And by pretending they got rid of them, you mean that you see FFXI weapon skills differently from current TP moves?


Well, with FFXI, you had multiple weapons that could be equipped across multiple jobs. A RDM and PLD could both use sword skill. A THF and DNC could both use dagger skill. A BLM and RDM both used elemental and enfeebling, etc...

This lead to two things: One is that your weapon and skill was independent of your level and two was that each class had different proficiencies and ranks in the skill (and if it was under B, usually you didn't bother using it)

With FFXIV, each class has their own unique weapon, so adding a weapon skill level on top of their class rank SP is just redundant. Your "rank" is essentially your weapon skill level.

Since you no longer have weapons that are usable cross class, skill level would be irrelevant anyway and you don't have to worry about "Oh, I -can- use that weapon, but I'm only a D rank so I won't bother" related crap.

Weapon skill works well in games like XI or WoW where classes can use multiple weapons, but when you can only use one weapon per class, it's redundant to have a class rank AND a weapon skill.

Edit: OHHHH I see what you mean.

I meant "The skill level of your weapon", as in Sword 150 or Enfeebling 200 or Guard 25 (lolguard). Not "Weapons Skills" as in "Abilities you use with TP.

I understand your confusion now.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 4:14pm by Mikhalia


Alright you bring good points.

Agreed, having additional weapon wielding points would be redundant. Actually I presume that the old sp system was built to be similar to FFXI skilling up, but since the whole strength of your class was dependent on skill points, they had to change it due to inconsistent sp gains.

My point was just that with such a system in XI, they forced you to fight tougher monsters in order to be any efficient in your class, otherwise you could just level to 75 in the dunes in a level sync party but you would be terrible at fighting a level 75 mob.

I could see a similar incentive in XIV, don't know what yet lol
#47 Jan 18 2011 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
northernsky wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
northernsky wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
To this point: I think that getting rid of weapon skill was overall a good thing.


Could you elaborate a bit?
I mean, why getting rid of them would be good?
And by pretending they got rid of them, you mean that you see FFXI weapon skills differently from current TP moves?


Well, with FFXI, you had multiple weapons that could be equipped across multiple jobs. A RDM and PLD could both use sword skill. A THF and DNC could both use dagger skill. A BLM and RDM both used elemental and enfeebling, etc...

This lead to two things: One is that your weapon and skill was independent of your level and two was that each class had different proficiencies and ranks in the skill (and if it was under B, usually you didn't bother using it)

With FFXIV, each class has their own unique weapon, so adding a weapon skill level on top of their class rank SP is just redundant. Your "rank" is essentially your weapon skill level.

Since you no longer have weapons that are usable cross class, skill level would be irrelevant anyway and you don't have to worry about "Oh, I -can- use that weapon, but I'm only a D rank so I won't bother" related crap.

Weapon skill works well in games like XI or WoW where classes can use multiple weapons, but when you can only use one weapon per class, it's redundant to have a class rank AND a weapon skill.

Edit: OHHHH I see what you mean.

I meant "The skill level of your weapon", as in Sword 150 or Enfeebling 200 or Guard 25 (lolguard). Not "Weapons Skills" as in "Abilities you use with TP.

I understand your confusion now.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 4:14pm by Mikhalia


Alright you bring good points.

Agreed, having additional weapon wielding points would be redundant. Actually I presume that the old sp system was built to be similar to FFXI skilling up, but since the whole strength of your class was dependent on skill points, they had to change it due to inconsistent sp gains.

My point was just that with such a system in XI, they forced you to fight tougher monsters in order to be any efficient in your class, otherwise you could just level to 75 in the dunes in a level sync party but you would be terrible at fighting a level 75 mob.

I could see a similar incentive in XIV, don't know what yet lol


Yeah, I partially liked that aspect, but if you were playing a class that had to level multiple weapon types (e.g. WAR), ESPECIALLY if they were two handers (e.g. DRK, SAM), then it would drive you nuts trying to keep everything up to level.

And then there was Guard, which was just a sick joke by SE.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#48 Jan 18 2011 at 4:40 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,636 posts
volta1 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
The first is to get rid of the SP cut at rank 20.


I've seen you claim this many, many times on the forums. Ironically, (or perhaps not), I've also never once seen you back this observational claim up with one of those 'empirical tests' - you one, the ones that you like to call for whenever you disagree with a point someone is trying to make.

So, Aurelius, where is your *evidence* that SP is halved at rank 20? SE has never said themselves that this is the mechanic, so then the burden of proof is on he who is making the claim, at least that's what I've learned from you in these forums.

Well then, how can you possibly claim this is positively true without an exhaustive test that shows it as such? Either present exhaustive test data, or stop harping on others who don't have formal statistic hypotheses and linear regressions to back up their forum posts.

Yes, I'm calling you out because this is a blatant act of hypocrisy on your part. Of course, if you can show me evidence you have, or point me to a link where SE says that SP is indeed halved at R20 (not nominally, but per mob, as you've claimed here and elsewhere), then I'll shut up and walk away with my tail between my legs.


In the December patch, they made the game noticeably easier to get to level 20. Therefore, when you hit 20, you lose that "perk" and go back to the old SP rate.
____________________________


#49 Jan 20 2011 at 7:21 AM Rating: Default
Sage
**
447 posts
KujaKoF wrote:

In the December patch, they made the game noticeably easier to get to level 20. Therefore, when you hit 20, you lose that "perk" and go back to the old SP rate.


Therefore? Yes, they made it easier to get to twenty. You know how? By lowering the nominal amount of SP needed at each rank. Less SP needed to level, not less SP yielded per mob.

Even if it was some other approach, you can't just say "A implies B, so some independent outcome C must also be true.", which is basically what you've done here. It doesn't follow logically (i.e. 'therefore', as you stated.)

Sorry, but what you've stated makes no sense.
____________________________
Djigga, please. Highland Hyurs can't jump.

#50 Jan 20 2011 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good
*
227 posts
volta1 wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:

In the December patch, they made the game noticeably easier to get to level 20. Therefore, when you hit 20, you lose that "perk" and go back to the old SP rate.


Therefore? Yes, they made it easier to get to twenty. You know how? By lowering the nominal amount of SP needed at each rank. Less SP needed to level, not less SP yielded per mob.

Even if it was some other approach, you can't just say "A implies B, so some independent outcome C must also be true.", which is basically what you've done here. It doesn't follow logically (i.e. 'therefore', as you stated.)

Sorry, but what you've stated makes no sense.


Before that patch, I was getting 120 SP from Green/Yellow mobs. Now, I am luck if I get 95 SP from Green/Yellow Mobs.
____________________________
Remember: Some Times the Dragon Wins.



#51 Jan 20 2011 at 8:10 AM Rating: Good
***
1,636 posts
volta1 wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:

In the December patch, they made the game noticeably easier to get to level 20. Therefore, when you hit 20, you lose that "perk" and go back to the old SP rate.


Therefore? Yes, they made it easier to get to twenty. You know how? By lowering the nominal amount of SP needed at each rank. Less SP needed to level, not less SP yielded per mob.

Even if it was some other approach, you can't just say "A implies B, so some independent outcome C must also be true.", which is basically what you've done here. It doesn't follow logically (i.e. 'therefore', as you stated.)

Sorry, but what you've stated makes no sense.


They also increased SP per mob. I don't know how to make this more clear. I did a leve at 19, you'll see like 200 SP per kill, ding during that leve and you're seeing 120 per mob for the rest of it. Thats a pretty significant drop

As for your lowering requirement, they lowered every level's by the same rate, and therefore they never would have specifically said they made leveling to 20 easier
____________________________


« Previous 1 2
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 23 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (23)