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SE press conference tomorrowFollow

#52 Jan 17 2011 at 11:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
It's their First Production Department conference, FFXIV and XI are being developed in the Third Department.

So, FFXIII-2, versus XIII, agito XIII, Dissidia: FF, etc.


Hurray for spending resources making sequels for a sh*tty game when just about any other FF title would have been a better choice.


XIII wasn't that bad since it's only major complaint was the rails area design till gran pulse and having to read datalogs to get info NPCs normally told you or through narration. The pacing was just the same as any other well loved FF game (and 100x more coherent than VII ever will be) but the world map is what was taken out of the equation once you're done with your rails segment. Instead of traveling an overworld you're thrown onto another rail in XIII.

XIII was kind of left open for a sequel or even DLC (which they admitted was going to happen) whereas most of the other FF games..didn't. FFIV got its sequel yeaaaaaaaars ago and a rerelease of said sequel, FFX got it's sequel, VII needs a remake, not a sequel, VIII they just need to tell me wtf I just witnessed, IX is up for debate, III is up for debate, VI kinda..can' get a sequel and V is up for debate. I and II are basically the framework for the FF games, any non mainstream FF game can barely get a sequel, whereas ones like Tactics and Crystal Chronicles can.



I"m a little late, but, I read that part and I litterally spit out what was in my mouth laughing. XD

Other than that, I haven't anything to add to this thread. Other than XIII was too tedious.
#53 Jan 17 2011 at 11:57 PM Rating: Decent
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While it was a questionable decision to start development of spinoff titles before the main title had even been released, and I empathize completely with the people who would rather see spinoff titles to other FF franchise series, FFXIII was in actuality well-received. Players liked it overall. You have a vocal minority that hated it (as with many FF games), and it certainly wasn't the perfect game. In the end though, developing the franchise was justifiable.

I have to figure that they had faith the franchise would succeed, and I can see why-- many aspects of the game appear to be practically tailored towards market-testing. I wouldn't be surprised if they polled or focus-grouped a lot of the game's content. Some of the game's design decisions were less than ideal (and definitely not for everyone), but overall the game came out pretty well.
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#54 Jan 18 2011 at 12:08 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
While it was a questionable decision to start development of spinoff titles before the main title had even been released, and I empathize completely with the people who would rather see spinoff titles to other FF franchise series, FFXIII was in actuality well-received. Players liked it overall. You have a vocal minority that hated it (as with many FF games), and it certainly wasn't the perfect game. In the end though, developing the franchise was justifiable.

I have to figure that they had faith the franchise would succeed, and I can see why-- many aspects of the game appear to be practically tailored towards market-testing. I wouldn't be surprised if they polled or focus-grouped a lot of the game's content. Some of the game's design decisions were less than ideal (and definitely not for everyone), but overall the game came out pretty well.


SE witnessed the popularity of VII's countless spinoffs and I'm sure that SE took that into consideration when fleshing out the FFXIII universe. With VII it was after the fact, with XIII it was planned.

That and I'm sure SE wanted to see a return on their development of crystal tools;and hence to milk more cash during this generation of consoles; before the next gen comes out.

#55 Jan 18 2011 at 3:28 AM Rating: Decent
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You're **** right that I'm going to criticize the game because it built up my hopes over the course of several months and dashed them to pieces in a matter of hours with a gaping void of a black hole that sucked the fun out of me where a game -should- have been.


Still there is nothing in that game that wasn't apparently obvious in the earlier FF's before it.

And with everything said above, you don't have any real criticism for that title. And if you do, please talk about the franchise as a whole. Because that's where everything you say applies.

You want to play a game, not watch a movie. So, why the **** have you played Final Fantasy?

Quote:
Based on several ratedowns, it would appear that disliking a game that I don't have fun in is an unpopular opinion. I'm sorry, was I supposed to play it even though I don't like it? I didn't get the memo.


There is reasonable criticism and pure ********* You are dissing XIII by criticizing the whole franchise, yet every other game is for some magical reason 'better'. This fact you chose to ignore. That is worth a rate down or two in my book.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 12:31pm by Hyanmen
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#56 Jan 18 2011 at 6:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh yes FFXIII was exactly like every other FF to date, damm us for not getting the memo <.<
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#57 Jan 18 2011 at 7:03 AM Rating: Good
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http://ps3.ign.com/articles/114/1144400p1.html




aaaaand **** has officially hit the development fan.

Well at least it'll keep the mindless shooter fans happy when they want to pretend they're playing an rpg.
#58 Jan 18 2011 at 7:42 AM Rating: Default
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seiferdincht wrote:
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/114/1144400p1.html




aaaaand sh*t has officially hit the development fan.

Well at least it'll keep the mindless shooter fans happy when they want to pretend they're playing an rpg.


As much as i hope its different and they learn what people disliked about 13...i smell another girl power X-2 coming on.....
#59 Jan 18 2011 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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zanfire wrote:
seiferdincht wrote:
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/114/1144400p1.html




aaaaand sh*t has officially hit the development fan.

Well at least it'll keep the mindless shooter fans happy when they want to pretend they're playing an rpg.


As much as i hope its different and they learn what people disliked about 13...i smell another girl power X-2 coming on.....


did you see that outfit design?

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/114/1144403p1.html

MMhmmm
This is the worst news all week.

Remember people that this is just my opinions of XIII if you like that type of thing more power to you.
#60 Jan 18 2011 at 7:51 AM Rating: Decent
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SE milking a FF instead of making a new one ? Nothing to see here folks
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#61 Jan 18 2011 at 7:54 AM Rating: Decent
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lol at this thread. Earlier FF's weren't any better. There is a misconception that just because when you were younger these stories appealed to you they were somehow better, when it was purely your lack of experience and maturity that made them 'good'.


It's always been about the presentation for me. Same for movies.
Realistically, no one cares if a story is good if the person telling it has a monotonous voice/tone & unenthusiastic.

A good presentation is, likely, always better to have than just a good story. Having both however would be great!
#62 Jan 18 2011 at 7:55 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
SE milking a FF instead of making a new one ? Nothing to see here folks


Been that way since Final Fantasy on the Famicom, it is indeed nothing new - However I thought it was apparent "Final Fantasy XIII" is going to be the main focus for awhile based on how many XIII variants there's going to be.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 8:55am by Jennestia
#63 Jan 18 2011 at 7:55 AM Rating: Decent
Its official XIII-2 is coming out this year, I dont have any specific details about it but got the news from www.finalfantasy-XIII.net you can go check out there website if your intrested.

Also dont forget that XIII-Versus is coming out this year (apparently) and that does look like a FF game I want to play, it seems dark and edgy and has a protaganist that can wield 12 weapons as well as magic. Awesome.
#64 Jan 18 2011 at 7:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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seiferdincht wrote:
zanfire wrote:
seiferdincht wrote:
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/114/1144400p1.html




aaaaand sh*t has officially hit the development fan.

Well at least it'll keep the mindless shooter fans happy when they want to pretend they're playing an rpg.


As much as i hope its different and they learn what people disliked about 13...i smell another girl power X-2 coming on.....


did you see that outfit design?

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/114/1144403p1.html

MMhmmm
This is the worst news all week.

Remember people that this is just my opinions of XIII if you like that type of thing more power to you.


*squees loudly into a glass jar*

I may or may not be guilty. >.>
#65 Jan 18 2011 at 7:59 AM Rating: Good
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What's wrong with the outfit aside not being a flashy mess or heavily exposed cleavage?
#66 Jan 18 2011 at 8:01 AM Rating: Default
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Jennestia wrote:
Ostia wrote:
SE milking a FF instead of making a new one ? Nothing to see here folks


Been that way since Final Fantasy on the Famicom, it is indeed nothing new - However I thought it was apparent "Final Fantasy XIII" is going to be the main focus for awhile based on how many XIII variants there's going to be.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 8:55am by Jennestia


Really ? name me all this FF spinoffs since the day from famicom ?

What are you gonna say ? Mystic Quest ? Lmao!
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#67 Jan 18 2011 at 8:05 AM Rating: Decent
That is just 1 of 100's of dresses in this XIII-2 Wardrobe RPG.
#68 Jan 18 2011 at 9:47 AM Rating: Good
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It doesn't look like another "Girl Power" game.. In fact, it looks more of like a "I'm a Guardian" kind of feel.

And, if you played the game, you'd know why there would be a serious lack of credibility to the "Girl Power" idea.
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#69 Jan 18 2011 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Azngard wrote:
It doesn't look like another "Girl Power" game.. In fact, it looks more of like a "I'm a Guardian" kind of feel.

And, if you played the game, you'd know why there would be a serious lack of credibility to the "Girl Power" idea.



Yeah I liked the whole ******* thing. =)
Next time with less sub-text in dialogue and rainbow bracelets, but I guess it's a Japanese thing to be ashamed of those themes.
#70 Jan 18 2011 at 10:13 AM Rating: Decent
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seiferdincht wrote:
Azngard wrote:
It doesn't look like another "Girl Power" game.. In fact, it looks more of like a "I'm a Guardian" kind of feel.

And, if you played the game, you'd know why there would be a serious lack of credibility to the "Girl Power" idea.



Yeah I liked the whole ******* thing. =)
Next time with less sub-text in dialogue and rainbow bracelets, but I guess it's a Japanese thing to be ashamed of those themes.


Not what I was referencing at all.

Yes, Vanille and Fang's motions were... Awkward, to say the least.. But that's not the reason why there's no way that "Girl Power" can come in FFXIII-2, without a major deconstruction of the FFXIII plot.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 11:13am by Azngard
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#71 Jan 18 2011 at 10:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Azngard wrote:
seiferdincht wrote:
Azngard wrote:
It doesn't look like another "Girl Power" game.. In fact, it looks more of like a "I'm a Guardian" kind of feel.

And, if you played the game, you'd know why there would be a serious lack of credibility to the "Girl Power" idea.



Yeah I liked the whole ******* thing. =)
Next time with less sub-text in dialogue and rainbow bracelets, but I guess it's a Japanese thing to be ashamed of those themes.


Not what I was referencing at all.

Yes, Vanille and Fang's motions were... Awkward, to say the least.. But that's not the reason why there's no way that "Girl Power" can come in FFXIII-2, without a major deconstruction of the FFXIII plot.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 11:13am by Azngard


It would be interesting to see how it could turn into a "Girl Power" thing..they'd actually have to try hard to make it as such Smiley: lol
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#72 Jan 18 2011 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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kenage wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Based on several ratedowns, it would appear that disliking a game that I don't have fun in is an unpopular opinion. I'm sorry, was I supposed to play it even though I don't like it? I didn't get the memo.

Amuses me though that I'm not the only one here with a negative opinion of 13 who got rated down though, and yet no one actually capable of rating has actually said anything, but instead rated down everyone who didn't like it.

If you've got something to say to defend the terrible excuse of a game that 13 was, stop hiding behind your red arrow of butthurtery and say it.

Tossing out some rate ups to counter the troll who thinks the red arrow is a "dislike" button when they can't even find the Reply button.

EDIT: Actually, it looks like someone just chucked blanket ratedowns at nearly everyone.

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 7:45pm by Mikhalia
You see, I don't agree with your approach, I don't think I need to come and say exactly what I consider wrong or miss-informative about a post to rate it down, I think the arrow is there and you have the right to use it (up or down) for anything that fall into the right category (helpful or incorrect)

I didn't rate you down Mikh because I usually don't rate down ppl who trying to be helpful and informative, like you. Yet I'm here to tell you saying that 13 is a "terrible excuse of a game" because you don't like it, it's not correct.

You can stress the initial tunnel all you want but if you just kept going far enough to get out it, surely you had realized the amazing world that 13 had to offer, I understand you consider that an unforgivable flaw. However the game ratings were good, like for example according to metacritics 83 of each 100 people can live with the flaws and still enjoy the game, that's enough to call it a good game.

tl;dr: if someone rate you down for stating that ff13 is terrible it's OK, that's misinformation.

Ken

Edit:typo

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 6:09am by kenage


That's exactly my complaint though. The tunnel was far too mind numbing and boring to keep me interested enough to want to play my way through it. I play a game because I want to have fun, not because I want to watch a 10 hour movie and then have fun later.

With all of the alternatives on the market that offer fun throughout, selling a game that isn't fun until 15-20 hours in is a terrible idea.

I never said that I wouldn't or couldn't enjoy the game if I could have gotten to the end of the tunnel. What I -did- say is that the game wasn't nearly fun enough to make me want to play through the crap to get to the good part.

Let me posture the following:

FF13 is a game where you slog through a tunnel full of cutscenes and eventually get to the fun part of the game.
FF14 is a game where you slog through guildleves and eventually get to... nothing.

So what's the difference between 13 and 14?

1) 13 had something to do at the end, 14 doesn't.
2) 13 got great reviews, 14 got bad reviews.

Now, what do they have IN COMMON?

They both start with something you have to slog through before you can begin enjoying yourself.

So what does this tell us? It tells us that the only reason 13 got good reviews was because it eventually got better. Once you take out the light at the end of the tunnel and all you're left with is the tunnel (grinding and guildleves), you're left with a terrible launch and horrible reviews.

Where does this leave us? It shows that people are unwilling to deal with the boring part if there's no fun part.

Here's the ultimate question: Why does a game need to precede the fun part with something that isn't fun? Why can't a game be fun throughout?

Yes, I think a game that isn't fun is a terrible game.

Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
You're **** right that I'm going to criticize the game because it built up my hopes over the course of several months and dashed them to pieces in a matter of hours with a gaping void of a black hole that sucked the fun out of me where a game -should- have been.


Still there is nothing in that game that wasn't apparently obvious in the earlier FF's before it.

And with everything said above, you don't have any real criticism for that title. And if you do, please talk about the franchise as a whole. Because that's where everything you say applies.

You want to play a game, not watch a movie. So, why the **** have you played Final Fantasy?

Quote:
Based on several ratedowns, it would appear that disliking a game that I don't have fun in is an unpopular opinion. I'm sorry, was I supposed to play it even though I don't like it? I didn't get the memo.


There is reasonable criticism and pure ********* You are dissing XIII by criticizing the whole franchise, yet every other game is for some magical reason 'better'. This fact you chose to ignore. That is worth a rate down or two in my book.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 12:31pm by Hyanmen


I love this. First you say:

"And with everything said above, you don't have any real criticism for that title. And if you do, please talk about the franchise as a whole. Because that's where everything you say applies."

and THEN you say

"You are dissing XIII by criticizing the whole franchise, yet every other game is for some magical reason 'better'."

No. I'm not criticizing the entire franchise. I'm criticizing 13, and to an extent 14. I have no criticism of any other FF title in this thread at all. While I won't claim that they were all perfect, my complaint that 13 was a tunnel only applies to 10, 10-2, and 13 and my complaint that it had way too many cutscenes applies only to 13.

Would you like more complaints about 13? You say I don't have any, even though I'm repeating some of these:

I didn't like that the battle system required you to build chains within a short timeframe to deal decent damage unlike other titles where each character's regular abilities were useful on their own. This is a complaint unique to 13.

I didn't like that early in the game, nearly every map transition was accompanied by a cutscene. This is a complaint unique to 13.

I didn't like how your level advancement was tied to the story. This is a complaint unique to 13.

I didn't like how they introduced all of the characters at the beginning of the game rather than starting you off with a couple and adding more later as in other titles. This is a complaint unique to 13.

I didn't like how in other titles, I had fun from the first hour to the last and in 13 I only had fun for about the first hour, and I am expected to play though 15-20 hours worth of gameplay that I didn't enjoy before it would get fun again. This is a complaint unique to 13.

I didn't like how, rather than explaining game concept via talking to NPCs, I had to open up my menu and read through a glossary to learn about the game world. This is a complaint unique to 13.

There. Six things I didn't like about 13 that were unique to 13, and did not apply to the rest of the franchise before it.

I liked 1-12 just fine. I would gladly recommend any FF game except for 13 to anyone. I would sooner recommend 14 before 13, despite the fact that 14 is in a state of disrepair. I have never made my points about the entire franchise; -you- are the one who is trying to do that.
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#73 Jan 18 2011 at 10:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I love this. First you say:

"And with everything said above, you don't have any real criticism for that title. And if you do, please talk about the franchise as a whole. Because that's where everything you say applies."

and THEN you say

"You are dissing XIII by criticizing the whole franchise, yet every other game is for some magical reason 'better'."


My point was a bit unclear there, but I can always hide behind the fact that English is my second language.

I think you still don't get it though.

Quote:
No. I'm not criticizing the entire franchise. I'm criticizing 13, and to an extent 14.


You think you are criticizing only 13 when you are criticizing the whole **** franchise. That's what I tried to say above. That's what I've proven earlier in this thread, with facts you decided to ignore (and then just continue your ********* like nothing happened). You still don't get it do you.

Quote:
Would you like more complaints about 13? You say I don't have any


You haven't had so far.

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I didn't like that the battle system required you to build chains within a short timeframe to deal decent damage unlike other titles where each character's regular abilities were useful on their own. This is a complaint unique to 13.


Yep. One thing I especially hated was how they kept magic relevant throughout the game, instead of becoming full melee zergfests.

Quote:
I didn't like how your level advancement was tied to the story. This is a complaint unique to 13.


Ah yes... I remember how I got KoR right after leaving Midgar in VII. That was fun. Could you also imagine a situation where you would get a fraction of EXP from mobs after a certain point and couldn't level off of them any longer? I'm so glad it wasn't this way in earlier FF's.

And the funny thing here? For all 6 complaints, I could make up 6 good things about the game that don't apply to any FF before it. Objectively good things, not this subjective silliness.

You can say you didn't like it, but you don't have any good reasons for it that can't be applied to any FF before it.

I do have, though. You are older, your expectations are higher, and the games from 90's no longer fulfill those expectations. That's all there is to it. You are just trying to make up excuses for your lack of proper understanding. People always do.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 7:40pm by Hyanmen
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#74 Jan 18 2011 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
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Well then fine, ***** it. Why not have the X button be "Play movie" and we can sit there and watch a 10 hour movie and call it a game.


Nah, I like me some combat gameplay once in a while. Although movies like the MGS series tend to do this better too.

Yes, they are pretty **** similar when it comes down to it. FF's are more action games (without action) than they ever were RPG's (like Elder Scrolls and Mass Effect).

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As you said, the ultimate result is still the same but at least prior titles at least tried to make you think that maybe what you were doing might have affected something in some way, even if it didn't.


But now this is kinda silly. If it hadn't any negative impact and didn't take a ton of effort to develop, that would be okay. But it did have a negative impact on the pacing of the story and it did take a ton of effort to develop. Just for the sake of "trying" to hide something that doesn't need to be hidden in the first place.

It is why the franchise has been lagging behind. The company tried to give us both linear MGS experience which is closer to a movie as well as something closer to Elder Scrolls where you truly have freedom to do what you want. The end result was little more than mediocre.

Face it, the franchise isn't known for it's spectacular gameplay. It's not known for handling well everything that makes a game... well, a game. It is easy, lacks proper interaction and does not offer any real freedom whatsoever. It's merits come from totally different aspects, as already said. It all boils down to music, story and characters while someone might mention Materia system (which ended up being totally OP and ruining any challenge anyway).

And now, my main point here is that

Quote:
but at least it's -something-.


that -something- has never been anything but a hindrance to the franchise, objectively speaking. It takes so much effort, and to what end? Your game is less free than Elder Scrolls, the pacing is worse than in MGS and the benefits are marginal (side content can exist without the hide and seek mechanic).

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The first 15-20 hours of FF13 suffered from the same problem that FF14 suffers from currently: There's very little to do, once you get past the initial excitement. It's fun at first, but eventually it's just a whole bunch of cutscenes in lieu of actual gameplay, even if that gameplay -is- hide and seek.


Suffer and suffer. I suffer from having to deal with finding something specific in a huge city/school/world when in the end I want the story to progress, not talk to random NPC's. Something that was luckily absent in XIII.

In the end, if you want to play a good game or even a game you don't play Final Fantasy. That doesn't mean the franchise is somehow inferior (as anything but a game) but realistically speaking, the whole existence of the series has been one large interactive Spirits Within.

That's not a bad thing, but what was bad thing that the franchise lied to itself for the longest time, trying to hide the fact that it's an "interactive movie" behind a poor game mechanic that didn't really make it much better as a game at all.

All that said, I just wish you wouldn't criticize XIII so much. It's not very justified. That game just made it blatantly obvious what this franchise is all about. Now maybe it can become as good as the MGS series is already.

I agree that the cutscenes were obviously what they were going for and a game can pull it off if they find the balance that MGS found and pull it off. I mean the end was like an hour long movie and all the cutscenes were incredibly long but i loved it cause the story that was told made the gameplay worth while cause i was so enthralled by the story. If FF could do this id be in love. I'd take that over any of the older titles any day.
#75 Jan 18 2011 at 10:51 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree that the cutscenes were obviously what they were going for and a game can pull it off if they find the balance that MGS found and pull it off. I mean the end was like an hour long movie and all the cutscenes were incredibly long but i loved it cause the story that was told made the gameplay worth while cause i was so enthralled by the story. If FF could do this id be in love. I'd take that over any of the older titles any day.


Once upon a time, the franchise pulled this off- not because the stories were good objectively speaking, but most of us were 7-13 years old. The games were made for that target demographic, and it hit the mark.

It's not surprising that in every poll, most people got into the franchise during FF7-10 era. Most people were also very young during that time. Most people also think those games were "the best". The correlation is painfully obvious.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#76 Jan 18 2011 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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To everyone who's major complaint is that Final Fantasy 13 is "too linear," please look up reviews of Final Fantasy 7(Which, you're probably a fanboy/girl of,) when it first came out.

You'd be shocked to read the major complaint was the same as 13's.. The game is too linear.

World Map =/= Non-linear.
RPG with Story = Linear.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 11:51am by Azngard
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#77 Jan 18 2011 at 11:12 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
You think you are criticizing only 13 when you are criticizing the whole **** franchise. That's what I tried to say above. That's what I've proven earlier in this thread, with facts you decided to ignore (and then just continue your ********* like nothing happened). You still don't get it do you.


No, I'm not. I'm only criticizing 13. We can go back and forth on this as much as you like. If English isn't your first language, then put this through what ever translator you need to get it:

I liked 1-12.

I did not like 13.

I thought the rest of the franchise prior to 13 is fine. I thought 13 was bad. I am only criticizing 13. Only 13. Just 13.

Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I didn't like that the battle system required you to build chains within a short timeframe to deal decent damage unlike other titles where each character's regular abilities were useful on their own. This is a complaint unique to 13.


Yep. One thing I especially hated was how they kept magic relevant throughout the game, instead of becoming full melee zergfests.


No clue what you're talking about here. Magic was plenty relevant in other games.

Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I didn't like how your level advancement was tied to the story. This is a complaint unique to 13.


Ah yes... I remember how I got KoR right after leaving Midgar in VII. That was fun. Could you also imagine a situation where you would get a fraction of EXP from mobs after a certain point and couldn't level off of them any longer? I'm so glad it wasn't this way in earlier FF's.


There's a difference between getting a couple more levels when you feel like grinding them out to give you an easier time with a hard boss and what you're trying to imply.

Hyanmen wrote:
And the funny thing here? For all 6 complaints, I could make up 6 good things about the game that don't apply to any FF before it. Objectively good things, not this subjective silliness.


I'd love to hear them. You say you could come up with 6 things and yet they are absent. So fine. You claim that you can come up with six things that show that 13 was objectively better. Let's hear them.

Hyanmen wrote:
You can say you didn't like it, but you don't have any good reasons for it that can't be applied to any FF before it.

I do have, though. You are older, your expectations are higher, and the games from 90's no longer fulfill those expectations. That's all there is to it. You are just trying to make up excuses for your lack of proper understanding. People always do.


I listed six good reasons. You not liking my reasons does not make them bad reasons. You only partially refuted two of them, then claimed you had six of your own that were absent.

I am older (you got something right finally. Go you!), my expectations are higher (two in a row!), and the games from the 90s are STILL fun to me (C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER).

No excuses here. I would gladly perform another play through of any SNES, PS1, or PS2 era FF game of your choice except perhaps 10 (because 10 is pretty close to 2 in terms of tunnel play) or 8 (only because I disliked the draw system), on the original console (not a remake).

I would not, however, have any reason to play FF13 again unless someone wanted to give me a save file that starts the game where the fun begins. Give me a save file that starts as soon as you exit the tunnel o' cutscenes and I'll be happy to give 13 another chance.

Point blank: I don't want a tunnel of cutscenes. No other FF title in the franchise is a tunnel of cutscenes on the level that 13 is, and I am unwilling to slog through it.
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#78 Jan 18 2011 at 11:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

Point blank: I don't want a tunnel of cutscenes. No other FF title in the franchise is a tunnel of cutscenes on the level that 13 is, and I am unwilling to slog through it.


While true, FFs prior to 13 were playing hide-and-seek with the story progression NPCs unless they told you flatout who to speak with because if you deviate too far from the set path of events you can get annihilated ala FFIII.
#79 Jan 18 2011 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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What exactly does this subjective debate about FF13 have to do with SE's press release? >.>
#80 Jan 18 2011 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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Jennestia wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

Point blank: I don't want a tunnel of cutscenes. No other FF title in the franchise is a tunnel of cutscenes on the level that 13 is, and I am unwilling to slog through it.


While true, FFs prior to 13 were playing hide-and-seek with the story progression NPCs unless they told you flatout who to speak with because if you deviate too far from the set path of events you can get annihilated ala FFIII.


This was mentioned earlier. I'd be fine with that, because once they removed the hide-and-seek, they replaced the filler NPCs who told you about things with a glossary that told you about things in the menu. They also replaced the towns that had several "useless" areas with a map that had one entrance and one exit. The game did everything but play itself for you.

It's not unlike quests in MMORPGs.

Most people seem to agree that they like quests, but that they dislike quests. A quest is simply an NPC telling you to kill 10 rats or bring them 5 tiger fangs. FFXIV has guildleves which skip the middle man and just tell you to kill 10 rats or 5 tigers. All of the sudden, guildleves are boring.

You can argue that the middle man (the hide and seek and wandering around towns) is unneeded, and I won't say it is, but once you take it out and dumb the system down to the basic features without the middle man, it becomes significantly less fun.

Hide-and-seek is a better mechanic than tunnel-cutscene-tunnel for the same reason that quests are a better mechanic than guildleves.
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#81 Jan 18 2011 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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The main thing I didn't like about XIII is that I couldn't play it around my girlfriend because Vanille sounded like she was rubbing one off every time she came on screen, and my girl would give me a weird look like I was perverted or something. She actually yelled from the bedroom asking if I was watching **** when I first got the game and Vanille started talking/moaning/whimpering.
#82 Jan 18 2011 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
What exactly does this subjective debate about FF13 have to do with SE's press release? >.>


It started with me commenting on the fact that the press conference would only be about sequels to 13 instead of about 14, and Hyan decided he should turn it into a several post long argument about how he thinks every FF game is exactly the same.
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#83 Jan 18 2011 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I agree that the cutscenes were obviously what they were going for and a game can pull it off if they find the balance that MGS found and pull it off. I mean the end was like an hour long movie and all the cutscenes were incredibly long but i loved it cause the story that was told made the gameplay worth while cause i was so enthralled by the story. If FF could do this id be in love. I'd take that over any of the older titles any day.


Once upon a time, the franchise pulled this off- not because the stories were good objectively speaking, but most of us were 7-13 years old. The games were made for that target demographic, and it hit the mark.

It's not surprising that in every poll, most people got into the franchise during FF7-10 era. Most people were also very young during that time. Most people also think those games were "the best". The correlation is painfully obvious.



As much as I dislike XIII I'd have to agree with you.

My problem is that when I played XIII I had just finished Mass Effect 2.

ME2 was adult had adult themes was well written and well acted. Not to mention I was enveloped in it's world.

FFXIII on the other hand went overboard on it's JRPG-ness, as well as being objectively poorly written. FFXII by comparison was very well written. To your point, FFXIII felt like a child's game where ME2 didn't.

There were campy characters, the most annoying character to date in a video game Vanille, linear and non-varied gameplay; battle-cutscene does not a game make. Uninspired music; a horrid Chocobo theme, a boring battle system and what seems to be an otherwise lazy game put out by a big developer. The UI, graphics and cut-scenes were awesome, though.

SE may have forgone all 'pretension,' but things like towns and mini-games and side-quests despite the illusion of non-linearity create much needed immersion.

In the end (and I've said this before) I realize that me not enjoying FFXIII is pretty subjective, however there are some objectively bad things about the game especially when measured up to both other Final Fantasies and non-FF games.

Not to say this is absolute truth but: http://gamerlimit.com/2010/05/bioware-writer-ffxiii-is-not-an-rpg/

There's a point to be made that the games I had enjoyed in the past were more RPG-like whereas Final Fantasy has made a continual effort to make an interactive movie. Again I'm agreeing with another post of yours that states that SE has gone on the MGS path.

People like me are coming to terms with this, and have to accept the fact that this isn't "Your Dad's Final Fantasy" anymore; And for me, it's unfortunate.
#84 Jan 18 2011 at 11:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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711 posts
Kierk wrote:

There were campy characters, the most annoying character to date in a video game Vanille


I respectfully disagree as Snow WAS the most annoying character to date and I vote Lightning to be one of the best character to date simply because she punched Snow TWICE....One after another!

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 12:39pm by OneFatAngel
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#85 Jan 18 2011 at 11:58 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
No, I'm not. I'm only criticizing 13.


What part of "you think you are only criticizing 13 when in fact you are criticizing the whole franchise" you don't get? Until you realize this, we are going to go back and forth about it.

Quote:
Magic was plenty relevant in other games.


Aye, especially endgame.

Quote:

There's a difference between getting a couple more levels when you feel like grinding them out to give you an easier time with a hard boss and what you're trying to imply.


So the complaint was "they don't allow me to easymode the fights if I can't win" after all. The game was too hard for you eh. =/

Quote:
I'd love to hear them. You say you could come up with 6 things and yet they are absent. So fine. You claim that you can come up with six things that show that 13 was objectively better. Let's hear them.


1. They kept magic relevant throughout the entire game, and not only if you sucked enough to not be able to press attack command to win every encounter like every other FF beside 12.

2. You didn't have to watch a bunch of CS's or start from the last savepoint if you died. Which brings us to..

3. Because of this, the fights were made harder, although a bit cheaply so in some parts of the game.

4. The story was paced a lot better. I never became bored by having to do mundane tasks like finding an NPC to progress the story, objectively a pretty **** important part of these 'games'.

5. You didn't have to run around different shops or even cities to find the items you were looking for. Truly spectacular gameplay element indeed, but I won't miss it.

6. Figuring out the sidecontent wasn't nigh impossible if you didn't have a guide of some sort to help you.

I think I'd have more but this will do.

Quote:
You not liking my reasons does not make them bad reasons.


Of course not. Too bad it's not just about whether I like said reasons or not that decide whether they're good or bad. Most of them are objectively bad and don't make much sense.

Quote:
the games from the 90s are STILL fun to me


Of course. Nostalgy takes you far. Objectively speaking those games aren't any more fun than the games today. FF games, anyway. I still like FFX a lot, but I can look at it objectively too (because I understand what made it fun in the first place).

Quote:

Point blank: I don't want a tunnel of cutscenes.


Yet you want a tunnel of cutscenes with a stupid gameplay element to make the tunnel a bad maze?

Like I said, keep hating but it's still not justified.

I'd also like to point out for some people that there is more than one way for someone to be "immersed" in a game. One gamers immersion is another gamers immersion breaker.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 8:59pm by Hyanmen
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#86 Jan 18 2011 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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Not to attempt to derail, but were there any intresting details to come from the press conference? Or was it just and only the expected XIII-2?

(Sorry, don't have much to add on the subject of XIII. I didn't enjoy it. And I have to disagree with some here; as annoying as Snow was, Hope made me want to commit homicide.)
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#87 Jan 18 2011 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
No, I'm not. I'm only criticizing 13.


What part of "you think you are only criticizing 13 when in fact you are criticizing the whole franchise" you don't get? Until you realize this, we are going to go back and forth about it.


What part of "No, I'm only criticizing 13" don't -you- get? Were you born this obtuse or did it take years of practice?

You know, I've argued with many a person who will put words in my mouth to try to make their point, but I gotta say that you're the first who, after being corrected, will keep trying to put the same words in my mouth over and over.

Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I'd love to hear them. You say you could come up with 6 things and yet they are absent. So fine. You claim that you can come up with six things that show that 13 was objectively better. Let's hear them.


1. They kept magic relevant throughout the entire game, and not only if you sucked enough to not be able to press attack command to win every encounter like every other FF beside 12.

2. You didn't have to watch a bunch of CS's or start from the last savepoint if you died. Which brings us to..

3. Because of this, the fights were made harder, although a bit cheaply so in some parts of the game.

4. The story was paced a lot better. I never became bored by having to do mundane tasks like finding an NPC to progress the story, objectively a pretty **** important part of these 'games'.

5. You didn't have to run around different shops or even cities to find the items you were looking for. Truly spectacular gameplay element indeed, but I won't miss it.

6. Figuring out the sidecontent wasn't nigh impossible if you didn't have a guide of some sort to help you.

I think I'd have more but this will do.


1. Magic was plenty relevant in other titles.

2. A valid point.

3. Nothing wrong with harder fights.

4 & 5. I didn't like the pacing at all, and I'd strongly prefer to be able to stop to play the game when I want and go back to the story when I want rather than be forced through it. I want to play the game at my own pace, not be rushed through it.

6. Figuring out the side content in other games wasn't nigh impossible either. There were a couple exceptionally obscure things like the Golden Chocobo in FF7, the pink tail in FF4, the Zodiac Spear in 12, but for the most part, the side content was there if you went looking for it. I didn't know you needed the game to hold your hand and walk you through the side content in addition to the story. Would you like FF15 to play itself for you?

Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
You not liking my reasons does not make them bad reasons.


Of course not. Too bad it's not just about whether I like said reasons or not that decide whether they're good or bad. Most of them are objectively bad and don't make much sense.


So it's not good enough that we're going back on you putting words in my mouth regarding me allegedly not liking any of the FF titles, you have to add on that "reason you don't like" = "objectively bad reason.

I have to ask again, are you honestly this dense, or are you just trying to troll me? Because the more I read your posts, the more I'm leaning toward the latter.

Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
the games from the 90s are STILL fun to me


Of course. Nostalgy takes you far. Objectively speaking those games aren't any more fun than the games today. FF games, anyway. I still like FFX a lot, but I can look at it objectively too (because I understand what made it fun in the first place).


If you honestly are going to try to claim that your opinion is objective, whereas opinions that disagree with yours are not, I'm definitel leaning towards you just trying to troll me.

Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Point blank: I don't want a tunnel of cutscenes.


Yet you want a tunnel of cutscenes with a stupid gameplay element to make the tunnel a bad maze?

Like I said, keep hating but it's still not justified.

I'd also like to point out for some people that there is more than one way for someone to be "immersed" in a game. One gamers immersion is another gamers immersion breaker.


No game had nearly as many cutscenes as 13 did. Look: If you put a little salt and pepper on a burger, it tastes better. If you put a lot of salt and pepper on a burger, it tastes bad. If you put so much salt and pepper on a burger that you can't see the burger any more, it's no longer a burger; it's a pile of salt and pepper.

That's what the biggest problem was... If you put a couple cutscenes in, it's good. If you put a lot of cutscenes in, it's bad. If you overload the game with cutscenes to the point that half the game is cutscenes, you no longer have a game, you have an interactive movie.

If you can honestly say that you can't understand the concept that "time spent actually pressing buttons and doing things" needs to outweigh "time spent watching movie clips" in order for it to be a GAME and not a MOVIE, then I have to come to the conclusion that you're just trolling me. Because I can't bring myself to believe that anyone can be as dense as you are acting.

Perhaps I'm giving you too much credit, but you -have- to be smart enough to understand this, right? Please tell me yes.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 3:08pm by Mikhalia
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#88 Jan 18 2011 at 2:30 PM Rating: Default
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seiferdincht wrote:
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/114/1144400p1.html




aaaaand sh*t has officially hit the development fan.

Well at least it'll keep the mindless shooter fans happy when they want to pretend they're playing an rpg.


Quote:
and will be coming to Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3


okay, WTH does SE not get? The XBOX 360 sales of FFXIII was not only controversial when announced, but pretty much pointless when we saw the volume of 360 sales...
There goes any hope of "True 3D" for FFXIII-2, why bother if only 1/2 the consoles support it. There also goes making a game that can only run on superior hardware, dumbed down so it can play on the, non-BLU-RAY, non-sixaxis, non-native Wi-Fi (the Wii and DS have wifi for crying out loud!), non-3-D capable (The original Atari was also in 2-D only) XBOOOOOXXX 360.
Don't get me wrong, i have a 360 and i did enjoy FFXI on it from time to time, but there was a time and place for this, modern day Final Fantasy is not a 360 thing...
#89 Jan 18 2011 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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265 posts
sideways wrote:
seiferdincht wrote:
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/114/1144400p1.html




aaaaand sh*t has officially hit the development fan.

Well at least it'll keep the mindless shooter fans happy when they want to pretend they're playing an rpg.


Quote:
and will be coming to Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3


okay, WTH does SE not get? The XBOX 360 sales of FFXIII was not only controversial when announced, but pretty much pointless when we saw the volume of 360 sales...
There goes any hope of "True 3D" for FFXIII-2, why bother if only 1/2 the consoles support it. There also goes making a game that can only run on superior hardware, dumbed down so it can play on the, non-BLU-RAY, non-sixaxis, non-native Wi-Fi (the Wii and DS have wifi for crying out loud!), non-3-D capable (The original Atari was also in 2-D only) XBOOOOOXXX 360.
Don't get me wrong, i have a 360 and i did enjoy FFXI on it from time to time, but there was a time and place for this, modern day Final Fantasy is not a 360 thing...


LOL @ console fanboyism.
Im not even going to argue how stupid what you wrote sounds.
#90 Jan 18 2011 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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12,770 posts
sideways wrote:
seiferdincht wrote:
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/114/1144400p1.html




aaaaand sh*t has officially hit the development fan.

Well at least it'll keep the mindless shooter fans happy when they want to pretend they're playing an rpg.


Quote:
and will be coming to Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3


okay, WTH does SE not get? The XBOX 360 sales of FFXIII was not only controversial when announced, but pretty much pointless when we saw the volume of 360 sales...
There goes any hope of "True 3D" for FFXIII-2, why bother if only 1/2 the consoles support it. There also goes making a game that can only run on superior hardware, dumbed down so it can play on the, non-BLU-RAY, non-sixaxis, non-native Wi-Fi (the Wii and DS have wifi for crying out loud!), non-3-D capable (The original Atari was also in 2-D only) XBOOOOOXXX 360.
Don't get me wrong, i have a 360 and i did enjoy FFXI on it from time to time, but there was a time and place for this, modern day Final Fantasy is not a 360 thing...


This whole 3D push isn't that great nor is the technology even amazing lol. Movies and games truly don't need it currently Smiley: disappointed What's wrong with putting FF on the 360? It's called options, not everyone got a PS3 or vice versa especially when the PS3 library was severely lacking.

Also, rofl @ superior hardware. The PS3 is powerful but far from superior, both systems have their strengths and weaknesses. Oh not to mention, 360's lack of native Wi-Fi is a moot point, it was very clearly Microsoft being Microsoft and capitalizing on things as they always do. Hooking it up to your PC or router worked just fine.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 12:46pm by Theonehio
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#91 Jan 18 2011 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I don't get the rage over putting it on 360. 14 would have been on 360 as well except that MS wanted to require XBL Gold to play it and SE didn't like that.
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#92 Jan 18 2011 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok, two things:

1) Is FFXIII worth me playing through all the back story and tutorials to get to the "good bit"? What does it actually involve? Do we get cities, quests, npc's, etc etc? Or is it just a bigger area?

2) SE aren't doing that bad. The last couple of years haven't been too great (Tactics Advance 2 was a mess as well) but it does look like they're learning. Give them a chance.

I think the problem is that SE have been the big dogs for so long that they've become a bit lazy. Now that companies like Bioware are making a charge, SE need to pick up the pace again. Which it does look like they're trying to do.
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#93 Jan 18 2011 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
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Likibiki wrote:
Ok, two things:

1) Is FFXIII worth me playing through all the back story and tutorials to get to the "good bit"? What does it actually involve? Do we get cities, quests, npc's, etc etc? Or is it just a bigger area?


Most people who have played it that far would agree that yes, it is. I personally couldn't do it, but if you don't mind it, then I'm told that "the rest of the game" is enjoyable and worth playing.

As I've said, if someone could somehow provide me with a save file that starts me at that point, I'd love to play the rest of it. If the tunnels and cutscenes don't bother you, then I'm told there's a good game after them.

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#94 Jan 18 2011 at 4:26 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
You know, I've argued with many a person who will put words in my mouth to try to make their point, but I gotta say that you're the first who, after being corrected, will keep trying to put the same words in my mouth over and over.


Wait a second, lol. You have indeed kept saying "No, I'm only criticizing 13" but without any valid points to support your argument. I have told you exactly why most of the things you say apply to every single FF out there, but you still chose to ignore them and just kept repeating your mantra.

You haven't corrected anyone. I'm still waiting.

Quote:
1. Magic was plenty relevant in other titles.


Until you got far enough, at which point it became useless. While this may be true, XIII did it better.

Quote:
I didn't like the pacing at all


Well, it depends how the pacing is broken. You didn't have to do any mundane tasks and got straight to the point- I guess we need to agree to disagree. The way other FF's broke the pacing was simply horrendous, but I guess something needs to replace it that keeps the story intact.

Quote:
I didn't know you needed the game to hold your hand and walk you through the side content in addition to the story.


No, but any kind of hint would definitely be welcome. It's like doing quests in XI. Yeah, you can get it done- after searching the whole world twice for it. Especially when sometimes you didn't even know whether there was any sidecontent or not. Later you were like "oh, I could have done that? Too bad the game didn't tell me, I'm already past that point."

Quote:
me allegedly not liking any of the FF titles


Well, now I get to say that you are putting words on my mouth. I already told you why you like these titles, but that doesn't stop you from criticizing them without even realizing it.

Quote:
If you honestly are going to try to claim that your opinion is objective, whereas opinions that disagree with yours are not, I'm definitel leaning towards you just trying to troll me.


I haven't argued anything regarding X aside from stuff that applies to every FF out there, so I dunno what you mean here.

Quote:
No game had nearly as many cutscenes as 13 did.


You have some kind of proof for this aside from a hunch?

Quote:
If you can honestly say that you can't understand the concept


This is one of your own definitions again, lol.

Earlier FF's? Bad games, good movies. XIII? Slightly less bad game, better movie. They took out the crappy gameplay but didn't replace it with anything better. That's still better than leaving the crap in, in my book. Especially when we play these games for the story, not for their mind-blowing gameplay.

I also see the amount of personal insults is raising. Surely you aren't going to end this argument all of a sudden by making up excuses as to why I am a troll? You can't say I haven't had any valid points here. That is quite insulting even if we are in a disagreement.
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#95 Jan 18 2011 at 4:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I didn't like the pacing at all


Well, it depends how the pacing is broken. You didn't have to do any mundane tasks and got straight to the point- I guess we need to agree to disagree. The way other FF's broke the pacing was simply horrendous, but I guess something needs to replace it that keeps the story intact.


Agree to disagree it is.

Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I didn't know you needed the game to hold your hand and walk you through the side content in addition to the story.


No, but any kind of hint would definitely be welcome. It's like doing quests in XI. Yeah, you can get it done- after searching the whole world twice for it. Especially when sometimes you didn't even know whether there was any sidecontent or not. Later you were like "oh, I could have done that? Too bad the game didn't tell me, I'm already past that point."


Okay, fair enough.

Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
me allegedly not liking any of the FF titles


Well, now I get to say that you are putting words on my mouth. I already told you why you like these titles, but that doesn't stop you from criticizing them without even realizing it.


Could I criticize past titles? Sure. I didn't like the draw system in 8. I didn't like Blitzball in 10. I didn't like 9's card came nearly as much as I liked 8's. I didn't like that 4, 5, and 6 will have characters leave your party without warning (fair enough, it's not like you deserve a warning, I won't argue that) and their gear goes with them (Really? I can't have your sh*t?).

That's me criticizing past titles. Up until this paragraph, I have not done so. Am I saying every FF before 13 was perfect? Hardly. I'm simply saying that 13 was the first FF that I genuinely thought was a bad game and that I did not like.

Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
No game had nearly as many cutscenes as 13 did.


You have some kind of proof for this aside from a hunch?


I'll take a page from Aurelius' playbook and say that it's readily observable. Feel free to count how many cutscenes there are in 13 and compare them to the number of cutscenes in any other FF title.

Hyanmen wrote:
Earlier FF's? Bad games, good movies. XIII? Slightly less bad game, better movie. They took out the crappy gameplay but didn't replace it with anything better. That's still better than leaving the crap in, in my book. Especially when we play these games for the story, not for their mind-blowing gameplay.

I also see the amount of personal insults is raising. Surely you aren't going to end this argument all of a sudden by making up excuses as to why I am a troll? You can't say I haven't had any valid points here. That is quite insulting even if we are in a disagreement.


I won't say that you don't have any valid points, I have certainly agreed with some of the points you have made. My issue is that you are trying to claim that I am somehow bashing every FF ever made simply because there were some aspects about 13 I didn't like, and no matter how many times I try to explain it, you just don't seem to get it. This leads me to the conclusion that either you genuinely are not getting it, or that you do get it but that you're pretending not to. And I'm having a hard time understanding how you don't get it.

I'll close with a couple points I made in IRC earlier, in the hopes they clarify the matter:

Point #1:
(3:34:08 PM) Mikhalia_Work: My primary two points are thus:
(3:34:27 PM) Mikhalia_Work: 1) 13 had way too many cutscenes. This does not apply to other titles.
(3:34:56 PM) Mikhalia_Work: 2) 13's "one way in, one way out" system was too linear and boring. Aside from X and X2 (which yes, it also applies to) this applies to no other titles.
(3:35:09 PM) Mikhalia_Work: So I -am- only criticizing 13.

Point #2:
(3:35:33 PM) Mikhalia_Work: I have said several times across several threads that I accept that some people like 13.
(3:35:42 PM) Mikhalia_Work: In fact, I'm pretty sure I've said it in that thread at some point

Point #3:
(3:37:34 PM) Mikhalia_Work: I never said his opinion was wrong
(3:37:44 PM) Mikhalia_Work: nor did I say that no one is allowed to like the game
(3:37:49 PM) Mikhalia_Work: just that I felt it was a bad game.
(3:38:07 PM) Mikhalia_Work: only FF I loathed was 13
(3:38:15 PM) Mikhalia_Work: I wasn't a huge fan of 8 or 10, thought they were okay.
(3:38:23 PM) Mikhalia_Work: 10-2 I liked okay I guess. Wasn't great
(3:38:30 PM) Mikhalia_Work: If other people like 13, then fine. That's cool.
(3:38:35 PM) Mikhalia_Work: I still think it was a bad game.
(3:38:43 PM) Mikhalia_Work: And for the record, I also think Quest 64 was a terrible game.
(3:38:47 PM) Mikhalia_Work: But I liked Quest 64.
(3:39:03 PM) Mikhalia_Work: I also think that Yoshi's Story was a terrible game
(3:39:08 PM) Mikhalia_Work: but I enjoyed it
(3:39:31 PM) Mikhalia_Work: I'm not saying that "I don't like it" = "terrible game"; There are some terrible games I do like and there are some games I don't like which are not terrible
(3:39:45 PM) Mikhalia_Work: I don't like EVE but that doesn't make it terrible. I don't like Halo but it's not a terrible game.
(3:40:07 PM) Mikhalia_Work: I -am- saying that I disliked 13 -and- I think it was a terrible game, that these points are individual and not causal
(3:40:32 PM) Mikhalia_Work: e.g. if I say that a car is red and fast, I am not saying that all red cars are fast or that the car is fast because it is red.

That's what I'm getting at. There are several aspects of 13 that I did not like. I've listed them, and no, they were not "always present in every FF ever". You can argue that you don't like the hide-and-seek mechanic, and perhaps you don't. But if FF13 had more hide-and-seek and 10% of the amount of cutscenes that it has, in a world that allowed you to freely roam MUCH earlier in the game (e.g. 12, the title right before it), I would have enjoyed 13. While there were many sub reasons, the primary reasons I disliked 13 were the overabundance of CGI movie after CGI movie on every map transition, and the fact that most of the maps were one way in, one way out tunnels.

Am I saying no one should like it? No. Am I saying that it is unenjoyable? Depends on the person. Am I saying that I think it was a bad game? Yes. Do I -only- think it was a bad game because I don't like it? No.

I'm simply saying that I do not feel that:

1) Go from point A to point B
2) Watch a 2 minute cutscene
3) Repeat

...is a good game design. Again, you can argue that the old games "just boil down to that anyway" but I've made the same point that most MMORPG "quests" simply boil down to what a guildleve is (go kill X number of this thing), and yet while people seem to like "quests", the guildleves are bland.

Flour tastes horrible. Raw eggs leave much to be desired. Baking powder is pretty nasty. Salt tastes okay, etc... when you combine them to a cake or pie, they taste delicious together, but the individual components are bad.

Pizza is basically just tomato sauce, cheese, and dough. But if I just tossed tomato sauce, cheese, and dough in a bowl and said "here, enjoy", it wouldn't taste so great.

That is my biggest issue with 13. They took all of the little minor filler, which you may argue is meaningless and I won't necessarily disagree, the walking around looking for NPCs, the checking shops, etc... they took out most of the ingredients and instead of the Final Fantasy cake I have come to expect and enjoy, I was left with a pile of flour and raw eggs and I didn't enjoy it at all.

Even if you do want to argue "Well every cake has flour and raw eggs, so you're just saying you don't like any cakes at all", that's where you're wrong. Even if some individual elements of 13 that I didn't like were partially in past games, it's all in the way the game comes together.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 5:53pm by Mikhalia
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#96 Jan 18 2011 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Something to look forward to I hope....
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#97 Jan 18 2011 at 5:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wintersage wrote:
Not to attempt to derail, but were there any intresting details to come from the press conference? Or was it just and only the expected XIII-2?

(Sorry, don't have much to add on the subject of XIII. I didn't enjoy it. And I have to disagree with some here; as annoying as Snow was, Hope made me want to commit homicide.)


There was quite a bit more than just the announcement of XIII-2. Versus got a 7 minute trailer showing off tons of gameplay, and it was all gorgeous - no release date yet. Agito got an awesome trailer as well, is now known as Final Fantasy Type-0, and is coming out this Summer in Japan on 2 UMDs. Kingdom Hearts 3D was shown as well for the 3DS. Dissidia Duodecim was also shown, and it looks like Prishe (FFXI) made it on the hero side, and Gilgamesh has been rumored for the villain's.

FFXIII-2 Trailer (Spoilers until 44 seconds in for those who haven't finished):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObiaNbDtF3Y&feature=player_embedded

FF Versus Trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A0AU1eNSXk&feature=player_embedded

FF Type-0 (Agito) Trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC5P3Jxvtzg&feature=player_embedded
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#98 Jan 18 2011 at 5:17 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
That's me criticizing past titles.


My whole argument has been about you criticizing the past FF's without even realizing it (and not saying "I am now criticizing Final Fantasy VIII as well as XIII", lol). I gave examples as to why your criticism applies to every FF before XIII- therefore by criticizing XIII using those examples, you criticized the games before it as well, although not directly. This would be fine, but when you act like the same criticism doesn't apply to the previous games, that's when things just don't seem right no longer.

Quote:
Feel free to count how many cutscenes there are in 13 and compare them to the number of cutscenes in any other FF title.


I think I'll just say that the game has just as many cutscenes as FF's before it (excluding 12, I guess) and that it is readily observable. It's your claim, not mine anyway.

Quote:
I am somehow bashing every FF ever made simply because there were some aspects about 13 I didn't like


You are bashing every FF ever made because said aspects you didn't like were also present in previous FF's. Not all of them, no, but the most important ones anyway.

You are also not saying anything more than what you quoted. That's not enough. If you want to prove me wrong, tell me how said aspects aren't present in the previous FF's so I can admit what I said was wrong.

One interesting thing I noticed from that irc chat. If this is all so subjective, why do you feel like you need to come out and tell us your valuable opinion (and so strongly, even)? Especially if you are going to take a neutral approach later when said opinion sparks an argument. Don't say you didn't think it would. Of course it does, especially when you have such an extreme opinion against the title. Somebody is going to take the bait.
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#99 Jan 18 2011 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
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XBOX 360 HAS TRUE 3D
SO DOES PS3

Just pointing this out because it looks like some people don't realize that while XBOX 360 hasn't really advertised they have true 3d they have been supporting it for half a year.

edit: how do i know this? because i have a 65 inch panasonic 3d-tv (the best 3d tv on the market) and I play CoD Black Ops on my 360 in 3D, very successfully. It looks just as good as Gran Turismo does on my ps3.

And the 3d push is there for a reason. If you play a game in "real 3d", NO normal game will compare to it. It's like a -huge- upgrade in technology visual-wise. People who think its a gimmick either haven't experienced it or have looked at the poor-quality LCD displays they have in stores. Get a $5000 3d plasma and you will be blown away.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 6:31pm by Azurymber
#100 Jan 18 2011 at 5:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
because i have a 65 inch panasonic 3d-tv (the best 3d tv on the market) and I play CoD Black Ops on my 360 in 3D, very successfully. It looks just as good as Gran Turismo does on my ps3


Sleepover at your house this friday! I'll bring my Logitech steering wheel. My mom said it was ok Smiley: clap
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#101 Jan 18 2011 at 6:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh my God, Hyanmen, please stop talking. The worst bit in your posts was when you claimed FFXIII had 6 OBJECTIVE positive points the other FFs didn't have, and you proceed to just post your opinion.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 7:31pm by Rydus
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