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Realistic timeline for significant improvements?Follow

#1 Jan 17 2011 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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Hiya all,

First of all the purpose of this post is not to bash or provide excuse for the current stage that FFXIV is in... it's more of helping us who are not game developers better understand what would be a more realistic expectation on when we can/should expect significant updates from the new Dev team.

So I just walked out of a meeting at work in which one of our IT project teams got hammered with a problematic system release... The release was really just some "minor enhancements" (at least according to the people complaining about the problems) such as additional data points to an existing billing system... The IT manager apologized for all the issues and promised to fix it ASAP.. when the directors asked for the definition of "ASAP", IT manager replied, "well, all I can tell you that we'll be working overtime to fix the problems... but realistically with all the issues at hand I honestly cannot guanrantee that we can resolve everything within couple months.." I remembered thinking, "oh boy, and this is just one of those internal stuff... if its an external product, it'll probably take waaaay longer because the company will not risk launching customer-facing producuts with glaring issues...Oh wait, but that's exactly what SE did back in Oct lol..." :P

I then came back to my office and started reading several posts today regarding "when updates are coming" and "what has the new dev team done so far"... and I started wondering... with all the issues at hand with such a huge project like FFXIV, what exactly is the realistic timeline for the FFXIV dev team to deliver something that are considered "significant" and "game-changing" to the majority player base?

Let's be more specific and just focus on the following hot items...

More contents
Main Storyline quests
Side quests
Major Milestones

In-game feature/System
UI improvement
Auction House or better Market Ward
Battle System


If "4-6 weeks for smaller projects and 12-24 weeks for larger ones" is the standard turn-around time for a 8-15 IT team (for my company at least), what would be the realistic turn-around time for an experienced game dev team under SE working on items mentioned above..? Is there any one here who is/was in the industry and can provide expert opinion or realistic assessments on this?


Edited, Jan 17th 2011 3:04pm by Yumiechan
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#2 Jan 17 2011 at 2:11 PM Rating: Excellent
They can have 6 months if they need it, but they need to filter in little snacks constantly during that time. And they need to be very specific if they are going to take that long.

Otherwise they need a medium patch every 3-4 weeks if they aren't going to communicate properly what they are doing and what their progress is.
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#3 Jan 17 2011 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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I agree with Perrin's general numbers; they probably have about 6 months before people have officially given up on the game, but if they don't keep stuff flowing in on a steady basis then the natives are going to get restless.

I think that they should strongly consider AT LEAST monthly updates (if not twice a month) until the game is in "Ready to be released" state. If that means only adding in 2-3 thins a month instead of 9-10 things every 3 months, then so be it.

Yoshida has said that his attitude is to figure out what they can do and then do it, not so much a "tell us what they're working on as they're working on it" since promising and then delivering consistently is important to him. I think that's admirable and respect that, but if they're going to be quiet about things until they KNOW they can deliver, then I think it's in their best interests to promise small things and deliver small things and work their way up.

Yoshida equated the lack of trust as feeling like a friendship was betrayed (in his analogy, the "friendship" between the company and the players). When you lose a friendship because of betrayed trust, it's often better to get your friend to trust you by showing them you can rely on little things like showing up on time, remembering to change the toilet paper when the roll is empty, paying them back the money they loan you... not saying "Well, I know you can't trust me, but if you'll let me be your Wedding Planner, it'll be great!" A grand gesture is pretty impressive but at the current point where the ship is just barely afloat, their best bet is to consistently bail water in small buckets, not fill up one huge one and toss it over.

******* analogies just taking over the post...

Anyway... yeah. I think that in most people's eyes, if the game doesn't have everything they want in 6 months, they're going to move on to other things or nothing. I'm sure that no matter what happens, this game will have players until the servers are shut off, but the longer it takes them to fix the game, the more players they will lose.
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#4 Jan 17 2011 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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It doesn't matter to me so much how long it will take but I would like them to tell us what they are working on and even a general timeline for implementation
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#5 Jan 17 2011 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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FFXIV is not unlike a fight in an MMORPG... keep hitting it consistently and with all you've got and you'll win. If you keep waiting and only hit it once in a while, you're going to die.

Cyclical analogy is cyclical.
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#6 Jan 17 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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The problem is not only, "when is this stuff getting release", it is "what the @#%^ are you morons working on right now?"

I realize things take time. I develop code for a job, sometimes, and I know that bugs and stuff can be hard to track down. But why has SE not said anything in basically a month? The stupid survey ended 4 days ago, what the **** are they waiting for? Tell us what the plan is. Tell us what they **** they have been doing for the past 3 weeks since the last patch.

The managerial and dev changes have to hurt and slow progress, but still, there should be WAY MORE stuff done by this point. What has the content team been working on for the past 4 months? Santa costumes and bunny helms? They should have much more completed by this point.

They have talked about how they are going to be more "in touch" and communicative with the community, but so far, they are full of sh*t. Give us some thoughts of what is coming. We don't need 100% solid, "this is exactly what you are going to get", plans. We realize stuff changes (and we want it to change, look at your POS game), but some rough ideas will give me something to at least look forward to. And also, put me more at ease with WTF is happening with this game. I currently know NOTHING, and we are all just sitting in the dark, waiting ... for weeks on end, reading dumbass posts about how to set up your bazaar and use your retainer. Come on SE, pull your heads out of your asses and do something that actually makes sense for once in your life.

I never played FFXI, but honestly, this has been the absolute slowest work I have ever seen done on an MMO. This game released well, and the client/engine it self is pretty solid. Yet they are failing miserably on fixing bugs, adding content, balancing classes, and overall, just improving the game. 4 months and this is all we have? The changes are pathetic at best. Most other games in this state, have had total class overhauls, more content, tons of balance and bug fixes, you name it by this point. SE is operating at sub snail speeds apparently.

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 4:05pm by MattVid6
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#7 Jan 17 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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It really depends greatly on the complexity of the game, and then more fundamentally, on the complexity of the engine that the game was built on. Seeing as FFXIV was built on an engine that no one outside of Square Enix has ever used, it's hard to say. For instance, let's assume for the moment that content like new storyline quests are built on a simple plug and play module model (very doable, you just need to be planning ahead the first time you make an even and make it easily repeatable). In such a case, new storyline quests would take on the order of days to add for a team of that size and experience. Things like Side Quests and Major Milestones as you call them, on the other hand, need to be tailored to each instance. Adding new NPC quests, for instance, could easily take a few weeks (2-3 weeks) to put down the ground work for allowing NPCs to give quests and allowing characters to store which quests they are one, so on and so forth.

UI improvements, again, depend on the complexity of the game and how segregated the components are. Optimally, the game has some sort of API that the interface plugs into, in which case all they need to do is create a new UI separately and then just plug it in when they are done. On the other hand, it could be that the UI is a complex maze of events and modules that call various functions in various modules in a complex way that would take days just to reproduce, none the less restructure. I would estimate anywhere between 2 and 9 weeks to put together a brand new UI even with a dedicated team working on it.

As for an AH or better Market Ward, it would actually be infinitely faster to just fix the Market Wards in terms of development time. All of the superstructure is already set down for the Market Wards, all they need to do is add new things and remove old things to make it work. On the other hand, an AH would require some pretty extensive additions to the game, including new locations in towns (as there are on set AH in the game as of now, they would need to add entirely new world geometry to make up for it). They could just make the AH an NPC you talk to, but that would feel hollow and patched together by the player base. I would say that you could probably throw together quick little changes to the Market Wards on a weekly basis, while I wouldn't expect to be able to implement an AH for at least 6 weeks, maybe as few as 4.

As for the battle system, I couldn't even begin to guess unless I knew more about their system and what they have planned for changes.

Also, keep in mind all of these projections are based on the assumption they have a large number of well informed and qualified people working on the problems. Taking into account that the team is new, I would tack on 1-2 weeks to each of those to learn the underlying code. Also taking into account that the team will likely *not* focus on one thing at a time, it would be best to assume each of those will be between 1.5-3.0x as long. Also, a good team will release the content modularly as it is done (at least for a game that is this poorly received at the moment).

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 5:02pm by Hulan
#8 Jan 17 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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MattVid6 wrote:
I never played FFXI, but honestly, this has been the absolute slowest work I have ever seen done on an MMO. This game released well, and the client/engine it self is pretty solid. Yet they are failing miserably on fixing bugs, adding content, balancing classes, and overall, just improving the game. 4 months and this is all we have? The changes are pathetic at best. Most other games in this state, have had total class overhauls, more content, tons of balance and bug fixes, you name it by this point. SE is operating at sub snail speeds apparently.


Matt if your assessment is fairly accurate compare to industry standard then it further saddens me that we are still in this current stage... :(

I also agree that though it is probably not a standard practice for a company like SE to have consistent two-way & open communication on what they are doing to fix the game with the customers, but desparate times call for despareate measures/change...

Though I will go by Perrin/Mikhalia's numbers and hope for major changes til around May/June.



Edited, Jan 17th 2011 4:39pm by Yumiechan

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 4:39pm by Yumiechan
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#9 Jan 17 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Default
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MattVid6 wrote:
The problem is not only, "when is this stuff getting release", it is "what the @#%^ are you morons working on right now?"

I realize things take time. I develop code for a job, sometimes, and I know that bugs and stuff can be hard to track down.


You know things take time, why even question it? If it takes time it takes time, period. What do you want? You'll still complain if they miss a day from daily blogging.

Quote:
The managerial and dev changes have to hurt and slow progress, but still, there should be WAY MORE stuff done by this point.


You don't seem to have an understanding of how things work, when they tell you their PRIORITY is to FIX the game rather than EXPAND IT CURRENTLY, what are you expecting? You don't throw in content into a video game if your characters can't even move, you have to get the foundation fixed first.

Quote:
I never played FFXI, but honestly, this has been the absolute slowest work I have ever seen done on an MMO


What's your MMO history? All the MMOs I played had minute updates monthly (bug fixes or translation fixes), larger updates bi monthly (usually an instance or new town) and a very large update (going from Epic V to Epic VI for example) every quarter or a year or more. You've been playing FFXIV for awhile, you know all too well they updated the game (bug fixing and optimization) every month since its release.

Also no, most games in this state usually have their servers shut off because they're smaller companies that can't afford to do an overhaul of their game.
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#10 Jan 17 2011 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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Hulan wrote:
It really depends greatly on the complexity of the game, and then more fundamentally, on the complexity of the engine that the game was built on.


Good point on "it really depends" Hulan..! This reminds me to keep an open mind :)


Hulan wrote:
Seeing as FFXIV was built on an engine that no one outside of Square Enix has ever used, it's hard to say. For instance, let's assume for the moment that content like new storyline quests are built on a simple plug and play module model (very doable, you just need to be planning ahead the first time you make an even and make it easily repeatable). In such a case, new storyline quests would take on the order of days to add for a team of that size and experience. Things like Side Quests and Major Milestones as you call them, on the other hand, need to be tailored to each instance. Adding new NPC quests, for instance, could easily take a few weeks (2-3 weeks) to put down the ground work for allowing NPCs to give quests and allowing characters to store which quests they are one, so on and so forth.


Great info! Just wondering is your estimate timeframe based primarily on the technical aspect? or does it include all production phases from story planning, working on quest-flow, testing to actual implementation?

Hulan wrote:
Also, keep in mind all of these projections are based on the assumption they have a large number of well informed and qualified people working on the problems. Taking into account that the team is new, I would tack on 1-2 weeks to each of those to learn the underlying code.


This totally makes sense..!! Not to mention if bureaucracy is somehow still an issue (which I believe it is for a company like SE), it'll probably just take some time for The Dev Team to organize/sort out/get approval for their action plans....


Hulan wrote:
Also taking into account that the team will likely *not* focus on one thing at a time, it would be best to assume each of those will be between 1.5-3.0x as long. Also, a good team will release the content modularly as it is done (at least for a game that is this poorly received at the moment).


Sorry for lack of knowledge, what do you mean by "release the content modularly"? Is it like gradually getting a different piece/portion of the quest released over a period of time?
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#11 Jan 17 2011 at 3:42 PM Rating: Decent
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If they started today, 6-9 months for a larger overhaul doesn't sound too unrealistic. As said, they're not working on just one feature at time, their manpower and resources are very scattered.

Aside from the UI overhaul, I don't think we should expect anything as significant or more significant improvement until late Summer perhaps. Of course we'll get the "normal" updates in the meantime though that while not "significant" can make the game a lot better.
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#12 Jan 17 2011 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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Yumiechan wrote:
Hulan wrote:
Seeing as FFXIV was built on an engine that no one outside of Square Enix has ever used, it's hard to say. For instance, let's assume for the moment that content like new storyline quests are built on a simple plug and play module model (very doable, you just need to be planning ahead the first time you make an even and make it easily repeatable). In such a case, new storyline quests would take on the order of days to add for a team of that size and experience. Things like Side Quests and Major Milestones as you call them, on the other hand, need to be tailored to each instance. Adding new NPC quests, for instance, could easily take a few weeks (2-3 weeks) to put down the ground work for allowing NPCs to give quests and allowing characters to store which quests they are one, so on and so forth.


Great info! Just wondering is your estimate timeframe based primarily on the technical aspect? or does it include all production phases from story planning, working on quest-flow, testing to actual implementation?

Well, I'm a computer programmer, so I really only consider things on the pure technical perspective (I naively assume once I've slapped down some code, it's done). These estimates are only how long it would take to get something working not distributed. That being said, working does mean that it has gone through enough QA to make sure it doesn't break other components and so forth.


Yumiechan wrote:
Hulan wrote:
Also taking into account that the team will likely *not* focus on one thing at a time, it would be best to assume each of those will be between 1.5-3.0x as long. Also, a good team will release the content modularly as it is done (at least for a game that is this poorly received at the moment).


Sorry for lack of knowledge, what do you mean by "release the content modularly"? Is it like gradually getting a different piece/portion of the quest released over a period of time?

By releasing content modularly, I mean what they did with the Market Wards. The search function isn't done yet, but it worked well enough to release it to the players for use. Similarly, they could morph the combat system slowly over time by releasing new functions one by one as they delete old ones.


Edited, Jan 17th 2011 4:59pm by Hulan
#13 Jan 17 2011 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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I would be happy with a blog or an official forum at this point for more status updates. We use a blog style progress updater at work, you write a couple sentences on what you are working on. It takes 2 seconds. The lack of official forums disturbs me, yes we have ZAM, ffxivpro, and others, but nothing is centralized. On one site a gripe could not even be mentioned on another. I am curious what SE's definition of Communication is?(not being sarcastic here)
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#14 Jan 17 2011 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Seventhblood wrote:
I would be happy with a blog or an official forum at this point for more status updates. We use a blog style progress updater at work, you write a couple sentences on what you are working on. It takes 2 seconds. The lack of official forums disturbs me, yes we have ZAM, ffxivpro, and others, but nothing is centralized.


FFXI/FFXIV = Japanese games.
Square Enix = Primarily Japanese.

Do you truly expect them to run a "centralized" forum for all of the bases they support? (Japan, NA, EU (plus its multiple languages)) Yoshida even says that the problem would be relaying everything to the development team (which they are Japanese btw) is why he said down the line they may set one up, but unlike most other MMOs with official forums, their centralized forum tend to be their home language and little support (or only fan support) for everyone else.
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#15 Jan 17 2011 at 4:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
FFXI/FFXIV = Japanese games.
Square Enix = Primarily Japanese.

Do you truly expect them to run a "centralized" forum for all of the bases they support? (Japan, NA, EU (plus its multiple languages)) Yoshida even says that the problem would be relaying everything to the development team (which they are Japanese btw) is why he said down the line they may set one up, but unlike most other MMOs with official forums, their centralized forum tend to be their home language and little support (or only fan support) for everyone else.


It seems more likely that they'd leave the implementation up to each SE branch, with a mandate to the non-Japanese branches that all of their reports be submitted in English so they only have to have one or two guys translate to Japanese and submit info to the developers.
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#16 Jan 17 2011 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
Seventhblood wrote:
I would be happy with a blog or an official forum at this point for more status updates. We use a blog style progress updater at work, you write a couple sentences on what you are working on. It takes 2 seconds. The lack of official forums disturbs me, yes we have ZAM, ffxivpro, and others, but nothing is centralized.


FFXI/FFXIV = Japanese games.
Square Enix = Primarily Japanese.

Do you truly expect them to run a "centralized" forum for all of the bases they support? (Japan, NA, EU (plus its multiple languages)) Yoshida even says that the problem would be relaying everything to the development team (which they are Japanese btw) is why he said down the line they may set one up, but unlike most other MMOs with official forums, their centralized forum tend to be their home language and little support (or only fan support) for everyone else.


I know SE and FF are japanese, I played FFXI on the japanese pc version. I do expect a centralized forum for each language. It would regain my trust to them for more communication then we are currently getting.
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#17 Jan 17 2011 at 5:07 PM Rating: Good
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Even if they did it in Japanese it would be better than nothing.

There are plenty of ways and people who can (and would!) translate it for free just because they can and love the game.

I agree they should not be blogging exclusively in Japanese. That would be in poor taste, but you're rampantly defending them when what most people are saying is dead on accurate.

If they want to build our trust and make us feel secure, they should be more forthcoming with INFORMATION (not updates/content) which is all any of us are asking. Most people willing to wait 6 months from TODAY (rather than release) if they'll come out of their development huddle and say what their plans are for the next 6mo (and beyond).

It's not an unreasonable request and really only requires 1 update (with perhaps weekly or bi-weekly follow ups) rather than daily blogs. Let's take some baby steps with SE. They're already outdoing themselves (POL vs Lodestone) in communicating with the public. It just isn't enough in this time of crisis and broken promises.
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#18 Jan 17 2011 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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It won't take long. SE will have their developers working hard every day, we're not talking about an internal company project that costs a few thousand, we're talking about a major game which cost millions to develop, there should be a large team of people cracking away at the code, assuming they actually have a direction to go in.

SE will want to get their baby up and running as soon as possible, simply because of the cost issue.

A game costs money to develop, say £30million, though some cost more, all depends on the brand name, by the time you take out all the fees and stuff, SE will end up with around 10% of the cost of each sale back, so you can imagine how many boxes they need to shift to actually make a profit. Because they are not charging us, it's costing them a small fortune every month in server fees, transit costs etc. so their bottom line is going to be hit until they can start charging to cover the costs of supplying the game (and make money there too).

The number of developers for XIV should allow them to develop a complete expansion within a year or so, they will probably pull dev's off the PS3 version too, it is not in SE's interest to allow the game to remain F2P for a while, they have to make the game good enough to get a great score on PS3 reviews which I would guess is going to be their target, getting the game into a state where Famitsu will give it a 9/10 or a 10/10. My estimate, 2 months.
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#19 Jan 17 2011 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
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Lexxuk wrote:
It won't take long. SE will have their developers working hard every day, we're not talking about an internal company project that costs a few thousand, we're talking about a major game which cost millions to develop, there should be a large team of people cracking away at the code, assuming they actually have a direction to go in.

SE will want to get their baby up and running as soon as possible, simply because of the cost issue.

A game costs money to develop, say £30million, though some cost more, all depends on the brand name, by the time you take out all the fees and stuff, SE will end up with around 10% of the cost of each sale back, so you can imagine how many boxes they need to shift to actually make a profit. Because they are not charging us, it's costing them a small fortune every month in server fees, transit costs etc. so their bottom line is going to be hit until they can start charging to cover the costs of supplying the game (and make money there too).

The number of developers for XIV should allow them to develop a complete expansion within a year or so, they will probably pull dev's off the PS3 version too, it is not in SE's interest to allow the game to remain F2P for a while, they have to make the game good enough to get a great score on PS3 reviews which I would guess is going to be their target, getting the game into a state where Famitsu will give it a 9/10 or a 10/10. My estimate, 2 months.


Nobody forced them to release the game as it was, we expressed or concerns during alpha, beta and open beta. There were servers full of people anticipating this game. Honestly I don't understand your point. I already paid money for the game and if it wasn't free to play right now I wouldn't be playing.

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 7:56pm by Seventhblood
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#20 Jan 17 2011 at 6:57 PM Rating: Good
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Lexxuk wrote:
The number of developers for XIV should allow them to develop a complete expansion within a year or so, they will probably pull dev's off the PS3 version too, it is not in SE's interest to allow the game to remain F2P for a while, they have to make the game good enough to get a great score on PS3 reviews which I would guess is going to be their target, getting the game into a state where Famitsu will give it a 9/10 or a 10/10. My estimate, 2 months.


Am I reading this right? You're saying that you think the game will be getting 9/10 or 10/10 ratings in 2 months?

I think you're extremely optimistic.
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#21 Jan 17 2011 at 7:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Lexxuk wrote:
The number of developers for XIV should allow them to develop a complete expansion within a year or so, they will probably pull dev's off the PS3 version too, it is not in SE's interest to allow the game to remain F2P for a while, they have to make the game good enough to get a great score on PS3 reviews which I would guess is going to be their target, getting the game into a state where Famitsu will give it a 9/10 or a 10/10. My estimate, 2 months.


Am I reading this right? You're saying that you think the game will be getting 9/10 or 10/10 ratings in 2 months?

I think you're extremely optimistic.


it could, but it wont
mainly because reviewers would be so tied up on what was, rather then what is, regardless of what they add or improve
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#22 Jan 17 2011 at 7:05 PM Rating: Good
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Lexxuk wrote:
It won't take long. SE will have their developers working hard every day, we're not talking about an internal company project that costs a few thousand, we're talking about a major game which cost millions to develop, there should be a large team of people cracking away at the code, assuming they actually have a direction to go in.

SE will want to get their baby up and running as soon as possible, simply because of the cost issue.

A game costs money to develop, say £30million, though some cost more, all depends on the brand name, by the time you take out all the fees and stuff, SE will end up with around 10% of the cost of each sale back, so you can imagine how many boxes they need to shift to actually make a profit. Because they are not charging us, it's costing them a small fortune every month in server fees, transit costs etc. so their bottom line is going to be hit until they can start charging to cover the costs of supplying the game (and make money there too).

The number of developers for XIV should allow them to develop a complete expansion within a year or so, they will probably pull dev's off the PS3 version too, it is not in SE's interest to allow the game to remain F2P for a while, they have to make the game good enough to get a great score on PS3 reviews which I would guess is going to be their target, getting the game into a state where Famitsu will give it a 9/10 or a 10/10. My estimate, 2 months.



While I don't agree with your timeline, I agree with the point you are trying to make. Every day they don't have a finished product, SE loses money. Lots of money. The only hope they have is to make the game as good as possible as quick as possible.

The real question is how much partially completed content they have, what are they doing to implement it as soon as possible, what are their plans to improve upon what content they have out now, and are they competent enough deal with these issues in a timely manner.
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#23 Jan 17 2011 at 8:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Blizzard will go bankrupt before this game gets a 9/10 :)

Let's be more realistic please.
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#24 Jan 17 2011 at 9:32 PM Rating: Good
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I don't really care how long it takes I just want to know stuff is coming and thus even small updates would keep me playing.

Quite frankly I want to see and play XI number of sidequests in this game and that's more extra stuff than in VII-X combined. So I don't think 6 months is nearly enough time to add that in.

Until then I have little reason to stop my questing in Vana'diel so it's not that bad. I just really really want to play this game more. Knowing at least the "release date" of XIV at this point would lessen my anxiety about the wait for content.
#25 Jan 17 2011 at 10:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
FFXIV is not unlike a fight in an MMORPG... keep hitting it consistently and with all you've got and you'll win. If you keep waiting and only hit it once in a while, you're going to die.

Cyclical analogy is cyclical.


Ya, except that in this case FFXIV pulled when their healer was AFK and now they're busy recovering from the wipe :P
#26 Jan 17 2011 at 10:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
FFXIV is not unlike a fight in an MMORPG... keep hitting it consistently and with all you've got and you'll win. If you keep waiting and only hit it once in a while, you're going to die.

Cyclical analogy is cyclical.


Ya, except that in this case FFXIV pulled when their healer was AFK and now they're busy recovering from the wipe :P


Aurelius, I rarely agree with the tenor of your posts on this forum, but you hit it out of the park this time. I literally laughed out loud. Well done. LOL
#27 Jan 18 2011 at 12:49 AM Rating: Good
35 posts
Mistress Theonehio wrote:

FFXI/FFXIV = Japanese games.
Square Enix = Primarily Japanese.

Do you truly expect them to run a "centralized" forum for all of the bases they support? (Japan, NA, EU (plus its multiple languages)) Yoshida even says that the problem would be relaying everything to the development team (which they are Japanese btw) is why he said down the line they may set one up, but unlike most other MMOs with official forums, their centralized forum tend to be their home language and little support (or only fan support) for everyone else.


Yes, yes I do.

Other, smaller companies like CCP (EVE online) manage to have official community forums that can be accessed from the main game site, with separate forums for a vast number of languages. Setting up fairly generic forums with minor player account tie-ins like logging in, character name and a generic portrait like the ones on lodestone character pages should be dead easy for S-E considering they already have a web development team in place maintaining and upgrading the lodestone. Yes, they will probably have to hire (or nominate) a few community reps, and a couple "aggregators" that can summarize & translate to Japanese, for the benefit of the development team, threads or posts that the reps flag to them as significant.

I'm hopeful that the inclusion of a forum option in one of the poll questions indicates an awareness of how important direct communication with the player base is, especially with the game in its current fragile state, and that if that poll option did well enough, we'll see official forums sooner rather than later.
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#28 Jan 18 2011 at 3:08 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
indicates an awareness of how important direct communication with the player base is


lol

How important is it?
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#29 Jan 18 2011 at 4:42 AM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Lexxuk wrote:
The number of developers for XIV should allow them to develop a complete expansion within a year or so, they will probably pull dev's off the PS3 version too, it is not in SE's interest to allow the game to remain F2P for a while, they have to make the game good enough to get a great score on PS3 reviews which I would guess is going to be their target, getting the game into a state where Famitsu will give it a 9/10 or a 10/10. My estimate, 2 months.


Am I reading this right? You're saying that you think the game will be getting 9/10 or 10/10 ratings in 2 months?

I think you're extremely optimistic.


Heck no, the glass is neither half empty or half full, it's the wrong size for the job. SE has everything already in place, the base game is intact with all the assets required, all they need to do to score a 9 or 10 is to fix the glaring issues that were picked up in reviews and fix them.

2 months working on a basically complete game is a rather long time, if they bring out a bug fix patch every week and a content patch every 2 weeks and a major patch once a month, that's 8 bug fix patches, 4 content patches and 2 major patches, SE should have the resources to make that possible with a complete separation of staff, sound guys, graphic guys, UI guys, storyline guys, content guys etc. Maybe even borrow some staff from DQ or FF, heck, maybe even pull some brains from Eidos. SE has the ability to fix up the game within 2 months, well, more than the ability, they have the resources to pull off such a feat.

The only thing standing in their way is a sense of direction, where do they want the game to go, what is their vision for the game, what do they believe is the most important things to fix? They cannot afford the PS3 release to have scores in the 4/5 range, they are probably looking at shifting 100,000 boxes in all 3 areas, to get that they need positive feedback from PC users (the best advertising is word of mouth) and positive feedback from game review sites, they won't get that if the spend 6 months looking at pie charts and thinking "yum, pie".
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#30 Jan 18 2011 at 4:44 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
all they need to do to score a 9 or 10 is to fix the glaring issues that were picked up in reviews and fix them.


You can't create the amount of content needed to take this game to 9 or 10 within 2 months. You just can't.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#31 Jan 18 2011 at 6:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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During my past, I have been involved with many software companies. Throwing bodies at a problem does not help, in fact in can hinder progress due to the coordination necessary between people. If one person is tweaking the tools used in the creation of the game, that can have far reaching effects. Coordination between Project Management/development/QA/Release is another delicate dance.

I think 6 months is a very ambitious time table.
#32 Jan 18 2011 at 6:54 AM Rating: Good
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Lexxuk wrote:
2 months working on a basically complete game is a rather long time, if they bring out a bug fix patch every week and a content patch every 2 weeks and a major patch once a month, that's 8 bug fix patches, 4 content patches and 2 major patches, SE should have the resources to make that possible with a complete separation of staff, sound guys, graphic guys, UI guys, storyline guys, content guys etc. Maybe even borrow some staff from DQ or FF, heck, maybe even pull some brains from Eidos. SE has the ability to fix up the game within 2 months, well, more than the ability, they have the resources to pull off such a feat.


No offense, but you really have no clue as to how much time and effort the overhaul you're talking about is really going to take. It would be stupid to yank other people away from profitable projects to work a game that just suspended subscription services indefinitely.

I know it's cliche, but I'm going there anyway because I like analogies...


FFXIV is a sinking ship. Severely damaged and taking on more water(losses) than the new devs can keep up with. The playerbase is jumping ship and costing them even more money in insurance(sales and subscriptions). You're suggesting that adding more crew will help control the water being taken on, but in reality that weight is just causing more severe flooding. Despite the free room service, I jumped ship long ago and have since been rescued. I do admire the faith and optimism of the poor souls still aboard the USS XIV, but logic prevents me from believing SE will somehow be able to turn a shipwreck into a submarine :P






Edited, Jan 18th 2011 7:55am by FilthMcNasty
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#33 Jan 18 2011 at 7:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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No matter how long it takes, the key here is that we NEED some communication. They really need to have a PR person keeping us informed that they are working on something, anything...just something. The natives are getting restless.

We don't care if it's in Japanese. We have Elmer. :D

Ultimately though, you can be sure they're doing something and putting in OT as well. They're losing money by the bucketload and they're well aware of it. My question is twofold: when are we going to hear from them again? And when are they going to start charging us?

PS~I'm better early summer for a solid release. I'd like a trickle of smaller updates as well, bug fixes at the very least.
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#34 Jan 18 2011 at 7:33 AM Rating: Default
Anyone thinking that this game is going to be good enough to release on PS3 in two months time is a little off on there calculations. Its more likely going to a mid-late release date for the year around July - September somewhere in that bracket. SE arent gonna take any chances over the PS3 release, the pc version sold over 700,000 copies thats combined JP, NA and EU sales (strangely EU was biggest buyer) there is a decent possibility that the PS3 version will out sell the pc version. It might not seem like that now but after 6-8 months time this game should be in a fit enough state for ps3. I am hungry for updates too but there aint much i can do about it, they will get released when they get released all I am hoping is there is more on the list than i anticipated!
#35 Jan 18 2011 at 7:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Blizzard will go bankrupt before this game gets a 9/10 :)

Let's be more realistic please.



You don't know that!! The game has been progressing very well in the last few months. A lot of the most broken issues have been fixed for the most part. SE gave us a new SP system(it some tuning, but its in the style we the players asked for), market search has been added(improvements are coming), large portion of the horrendous lag has been fixed, we got a little more content(more was promised in early 2011), crafters got more recipes, glitches and bugs get fixed on a weekly basis, we got the holiday events to give us something to do, we got UI optimizations, and I am probably forgetting some things.

From a development stand point what's been done so far is great. More content and improvements are on the way. Yes many of us paid for box sales, which made a cost for some to play the game, otherwise the game has been free to play. Meaning that we the user aside from the box sale have had no other re-occurring cost to play the game, and won't until more improvements are added.

Hey no one here on these forums nor you for the matter knows, what exactly is coming. It is entirely possible and plausible that this game could be turned into a 10/10 or 9/10 from game sites. But what does a rating really matter. Its how the players and the fans receive the content, anyways. Not some ******* playing for 8-10 hours and if that and writes a review with out exploring everything offered. I never base my potential game experience from a review.

So please you be more realistic, and learn when a comment is better left thought than said, thank you.
#36 Jan 18 2011 at 8:08 AM Rating: Good
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Speeral wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Blizzard will go bankrupt before this game gets a 9/10 :)

Let's be more realistic please.



You don't know that!! The game has been progressing very well in the last few months. A lot of the most broken issues have been fixed for the most part. SE gave us a new SP system(it some tuning, but its in the style we the players asked for), market search has been added(improvements are coming), large portion of the horrendous lag has been fixed, we got a little more content(more was promised in early 2011), crafters got more recipes, glitches and bugs get fixed on a weekly basis, we got the holiday events to give us something to do, we got UI optimizations, and I am probably forgetting some things.

From a development stand point what's been done so far is great. More content and improvements are on the way. Yes many of us paid for box sales, which made a cost for some to play the game, otherwise the game has been free to play. Meaning that we the user aside from the box sale have had no other re-occurring cost to play the game, and won't until more improvements are added.

Hey no one here on these forums nor you for the matter knows, what exactly is coming. It is entirely possible and plausible that this game could be turned into a 10/10 or 9/10 from game sites. But what does a rating really matter. Its how the players and the fans receive the content, anyways. Not some ******* playing for 8-10 hours and if that and writes a review with out exploring everything offered. I never base my potential game experience from a review.

So please you be more realistic, and learn when a comment is better left thought than said, thank you.


While I enjoy your enthusiasm and share the same sentiments as you, I just know deep down in my soul someone is going to come here and use the 'w' word, and I'm going to die a little inside. But anyway, here's to a brighter future for FFXIV and the eventual agenda that will be presented by the developers.
#37 Jan 18 2011 at 8:21 AM Rating: Decent
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2,202 posts
Speeral wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Blizzard will go bankrupt before this game gets a 9/10 :)

Let's be more realistic please.



You don't know that!! The game has been progressing very well in the last few months. A lot of the most broken issues have been fixed for the most part. SE gave us a new SP system(it some tuning, but its in the style we the players asked for), market search has been added(improvements are coming), large portion of the horrendous lag has been fixed, we got a little more content(more was promised in early 2011), crafters got more recipes, glitches and bugs get fixed on a weekly basis, we got the holiday events to give us something to do, we got UI optimizations, and I am probably forgetting some things.

From a development stand point what's been done so far is great. More content and improvements are on the way. Yes many of us paid for box sales, which made a cost for some to play the game, otherwise the game has been free to play. Meaning that we the user aside from the box sale have had no other re-occurring cost to play the game, and won't until more improvements are added.

Hey no one here on these forums nor you for the matter knows, what exactly is coming. It is entirely possible and plausible that this game could be turned into a 10/10 or 9/10 from game sites. But what does a rating really matter. Its how the players and the fans receive the content, anyways. Not some ******* playing for 8-10 hours and if that and writes a review with out exploring everything offered. I never base my potential game experience from a review.

So please you be more realistic, and learn when a comment is better left thought than said, thank you.


You do realize that all of what you mentioned is what was expected from them to do well before release date ?

From a development stand point, all they have done, is what they had to do anyways, fix bug's/glitches and add content(As for if NM's are content or not is up for debate) but really tell me something they have done, that no other development team has done for it's MMORPG?

You had a good point tho, nobody knows where this game is going, not SE, not the Dev's, not the player's either, this game was designed to attract the big casual crowd, and it ended up alienating both the casual's and the hardcore crowd, SE has no idea as to what the market want's, just look at that poll they had up, they have no clue, what better example than the wards, everybody and their mother's swear it work's that i can be as effective as an AH, yet SE is asking if we want an AH? Really ? you the developer have no idea if your system is working as intended or you need to scrap it for another system ? Specially when you have way bigger problems at hands, like CONTENT?







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#38 Jan 18 2011 at 8:53 AM Rating: Good
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473 posts
Ostia wrote:
Speeral wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Blizzard will go bankrupt before this game gets a 9/10 :)

Let's be more realistic please.



You don't know that!! The game has been progressing very well in the last few months. A lot of the most broken issues have been fixed for the most part. SE gave us a new SP system(it some tuning, but its in the style we the players asked for), market search has been added(improvements are coming), large portion of the horrendous lag has been fixed, we got a little more content(more was promised in early 2011), crafters got more recipes, glitches and bugs get fixed on a weekly basis, we got the holiday events to give us something to do, we got UI optimizations, and I am probably forgetting some things.

From a development stand point what's been done so far is great. More content and improvements are on the way. Yes many of us paid for box sales, which made a cost for some to play the game, otherwise the game has been free to play. Meaning that we the user aside from the box sale have had no other re-occurring cost to play the game, and won't until more improvements are added.

Hey no one here on these forums nor you for the matter knows, what exactly is coming. It is entirely possible and plausible that this game could be turned into a 10/10 or 9/10 from game sites. But what does a rating really matter. Its how the players and the fans receive the content, anyways. Not some ******* playing for 8-10 hours and if that and writes a review with out exploring everything offered. I never base my potential game experience from a review.

So please you be more realistic, and learn when a comment is better left thought than said, thank you.


You do realize that all of what you mentioned is what was expected from them to do well before release date ?

From a development stand point, all they have done, is what they had to do anyways, fix bug's/glitches and add content(As for if NM's are content or not is up for debate) but really tell me something they have done, that no other development team has done for it's MMORPG?

You had a good point though, nobody knows where this game is going, not SE, not the Dev's, not the player's either, this game was designed to attract the big casual crowd, and it ended up alienating both the casual's and the hardcore crowd, SE has no idea as to what the market want's, just look at that poll they had up, they have no clue, what better example than the wards, everybody and their mother's swear it work's that i can be as effective as an AH, yet SE is asking if we want an AH? Really ? you the developer have no idea if your system is working as intended or you need to scrap it for another system ? Specially when you have way bigger problems at hands, like CONTENT?


Agreed, on all accounts. Yes I do realize the game should have shipped with most of those fixes at retail. What I am trying to point out was that these glaring problems are being worked on at a good pace. The second release for console was pushed back for now until the direction and content comes together. Those two work hand in hand, and I do look forward to what changes are going to be coming along the pipeline as development shifts from functionality to content. The systems in the game will be tweaked continually, but as you stated and I agree with is content should be the driving focus of the dev team.

If it takes more than one poll to gauge what the end user us the player would like to see, than I will accept that. For me i at this point am enjoying logging every few days to just rank up and work on building a character ready for the content that will eventually be delivered.

If or when a very large content update happens, that will truly be the sink or swim moment for this game. We the player are anticipating a lot and deservedly so. When SE announces the next large scale version update we sure had better be getting some meat to the bones that this game currently is. NPC quests and a large portion of the story line, nm's ranging from rank 10-40 for all players to enjoy, more gear options, raid inspired leveling instances, this new hamlet defense with hamlets and npc's defending their farms and we the adventurer save the day. This creation of immersion is what is missing and many players have stated this, and I am with them. behest is fun bc it does two things; it brings players together, and you have the sense of helping hold of creatures from invading the area you are in.

Also I cannot wait till stuff like campaign and besieged comes into play where the beast tribes and garlean empire strike cities and outposts. This would be a great addition and if it gives great/good exp/sp than heck I don't need the standard party set up to grind mobs down. Plus giving monetary/material rewards to the participants would also be good for crafters. there is a wealth of material for the dev team to work with on the foundation already set, and I have a very sneaking suspicion that similar content is on the way currently. Then we will start seeing the new dev teams efforts and ideas starting to poke into the game.

as well I wanted to add this, because many of my guesses and assumptions are based on what posted on the lodestone and I am trying to interpret what SE has given us.

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=cb4dc09784bc24b4fde2e45de9f018ec5fb504d2

much of this content has been well into development and I do not believe the new dev team will scrap it in favour of something else instead just begin guiding this to what their new plan will be.






Edited, Jan 18th 2011 9:54am by Speeral

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 11:45am by Speeral
#39 Jan 18 2011 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
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I'm hoping SE does give us a few small patches here and there to keep things interesting. I'm optimistic about the game but even still... i'm finiding it very hard to log-in nowadays =\
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#40 Jan 18 2011 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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Yumiechan wrote:


More contents
Main Storyline quests
Side quests
Major Milestones

In-game feature/System
UI improvement
Auction House or better Market Ward
Battle System


Edited, Jan 17th 2011 3:04pm by Yumiechan


I haven't read this entire thread but I think all of these should at least see some adjustment in the "Early 2011" patch...

Square Enix wrote:

The addition of new main scenario quests
The addition of new class quests
The addition of new tutorial quests

Further adjustments to combat balance
The further differentiation of actions to enhance class identities

Further adjustments to retainers
An increase in retainer inventory capacity
An increase in the number of items that can be placed in a retainer's bazaar
A fix assuring that retainers do not leave their bazaar locations after server maintenance
The addition of a sale/purchase history
Functionality changes to the "buying" feature
The addition of a delivery service

Changes to main menu display format
Changes to inventory list display format
Improvements to various user-interface layouts
Improvements to the Interactions menu
Improvements to Actions & Traits menu response time
Improvements to mouse and keyboard controls
Improvements to character controls
The addition of drag and drop functionality
The addition of mouseover popup help text
The addition of right-click menus
The addition of a feature that will allow the cutting



http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=cb4dc09784bc24b4fde2e45de9f018ec5fb504d2

Ostia: Do you ever write a post of any value at all in this forum? Seriously

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 1:16pm by Metin
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#41 Jan 18 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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@ Metin . . . . THANK YOU!!!!

I posted the link to that and it seems many do not take or lack the initiative to do some of their own research. Much of what is discussed is being worked on already. Honestly even with the new additions to the current dev team SE is not going to just toss away so much capital investment from such a planned and already much worked on update. Will it or can it be postponed to add some more touches and polish sure . . . . but to through away that much dev would be shameful. The dev with the newest additions are over seeing the next version update to go smoothly and with as little hick-ups and bugs possible.

The update after the early 2011 one is the one us the community and player base have to really keep a close eye on. That is the one that will start to showcase the ideas and plans of the new team.
#42 Jan 18 2011 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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To be fair, early 2011 could mean anytime between now and June.

I'm honestly not caring about the updates so much as the communication. Without that, the fans(read: ZAM peeps) lose faith. People just want to know they're not forgotten about. Same strategy as in any business.



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#43 Jan 18 2011 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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Nekovivie wrote:
To be fair, early 2011 could mean anytime between now and June.

I'm honestly not caring about the updates so much as the communication. Without that, the fans(read: ZAM peeps) lose faith. People just want to know they're not forgotten about. Same strategy as in any business.






Absolutely correct, communication is key!!

However june is the sixth month and marks mid year for many businesses. I highly doubt SE would wait that long to at least give some bread crumbs in the form of new leve's and craft recipes and in game improvements in regards to balance. I could be wrong though, but looking at SE's update track record since launch and the almost weekly emergency maintenances happening doubtful it will be as late as june for a version update.
#44 Jan 18 2011 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
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Early 2011 should mean Q1 at the very least but yes I don't read any more into that than its face value.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 2:16pm by Metin
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#45 Jan 18 2011 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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SE's fiscal year end is March 31st...so chances are, they have already written off this year(through March 31st) as a loss. From the accounting side of this, they may burn through some $$ through March, but will probably not worry too much about sales until April or later, being that's the start of the new fiscal year.

Bottom line, they do not have a lot of incentive to get back players or release the PS3 before March 31st. This is another reason the PS3 release was delayed as they would want those sales in next years business.

This being said...I don't think that we should realistically expect any major updates until summer at the earliest.

ps...that Tanaka list of improvements really needs to be put to rest. Yoshida will have a new list for us hopefully sometime soon.
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#46 Jan 18 2011 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think SE was just on cruise control from FFXI. Lets face it, XI is amazingly profitable at this point in that game's life and they got greedy. In an interview, one of their execs (can't remember who) basically admitted that they had never played WoW, so that tells me they're totally ignorant to the state of the 2011 MMO market.

If anyone was around in 2002-3, FFXI was released in just about as half-assed state as FFXIV is today. There was NO content other than minimal quests and grinding. The cap was 50. It was impossible to do anything solo and it was soul-crushingly hard and unforgiving. By the time of the NA release, it was better but that was 1.5 years later. I think management asked, "Does it run?" and development said, "Well, technically yes but..." and FFXIV was released no other questions asked.

The bottom line is they thought it would be completely fine to release it half-finished and just add/fix as they went along as they did in 2002. Well, in 2011 that's not ok.
#47 Jan 18 2011 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Simool wrote:
SE's fiscal year end is March 31st...so chances are, they have already written off this year(through March 31st) as a loss. From the accounting side of this, they may burn through some $$ through March, but will probably not worry too much about sales until April or later, being that's the start of the new fiscal year.

Bottom line, they do not have a lot of incentive to get back players or release the PS3 before March 31st. This is another reason the PS3 release was delayed as they would want those sales in next years business.

This being said...I don't think that we should realistically expect any major updates until summer at the earliest.

ps...that Tanaka list of improvements really needs to be put to rest. Yoshida will have a new list for us hopefully sometime soon.


Pretty sure most that's on that list people have been ******** XIV needs.
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#48 Jan 18 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Loris wrote:
I think SE was just on cruise control from FFXI. Lets face it, XI is amazingly profitable at this point in that game's life and they got greedy. In an interview, one of their execs (can't remember who) basically admitted that they had never played WoW, so that tells me they're totally ignorant to the state of the 2011 MMO market.


Part of me thinks that the entire FFXIV dev team should take a week off of working on the game and play other MMORPGs from other companies. WoW, DDO, EVE, LOTRO, GW... go crazy.

I think that the big problem here is that we're getting the game designed for us by people who only have one game to compare it to (FFXI). I really think it's in OUR best interests that they play other games and figure out what ideas they like and don't like, rather than trying to rely on market research and statistics.
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#49 Jan 18 2011 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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Not sure what SE's internal time line is for these "significant improvements", and I'm not in the industry so I can't comment on the technical feasibility of making such changes. That being said, there's a big difference between "the time required to make significant changes" and "how much longer the player base will stand by and support FFXIV".

Personally, I can tolerate another six (6) months of this garbage. I started playing at CE release, so I feel that the four (4) months I've put in already + another six (6) months is more than adequate time to get your act together. My timeline is dictated by my own personal threshold for pain and by other MMO's being released in the near future. Right now, I just don't see any other MMO's that I really want to play.

#50 Jan 18 2011 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Loris wrote:
I think SE was just on cruise control from FFXI. Lets face it, XI is amazingly profitable at this point in that game's life and they got greedy. In an interview, one of their execs (can't remember who) basically admitted that they had never played WoW, so that tells me they're totally ignorant to the state of the 2011 MMO market.


Part of me thinks that the entire FFXIV dev team should take a week off of working on the game and play other MMORPGs from other companies. WoW, DDO, EVE, LOTRO, GW... go crazy.

I think that the big problem here is that we're getting the game designed for us by people who only have one game to compare it to (FFXI). I really think it's in OUR best interests that they play other games and figure out what ideas they like and don't like, rather than trying to rely on market research and statistics.


Except that they didnt even really use that stuff. Aside from the races, this game doesnt even take what made their other game they "played" so long. If this was half of what FFXI was, the game wouldnt be in the situation its in now.

Its like they ignored what they learned for 8 years and tryed something new, but with out realizing that they made those mistakes already. They say the same team made this game, but **** is it hard to believe.
#51 Jan 18 2011 at 4:46 PM Rating: Default
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3,416 posts
Quote:
Personally, I can tolerate another six (6) months of this garbage.


Personally, I can tolerate another 5 years of this garbage, because I'm not playing the game. I'll do as soon as it gets good, however. Sad to hear that you won't if it takes more than 6 months though!
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

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