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Armoury system: less than limited freedom?Follow

#1 Jan 17 2011 at 11:38 PM Rating: Decent
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After reading a few threads I've been wondering about the truth behind the armoury system. Does it really do something more than let you change jobs on the fly?
We have DoW and DoM. The jobs in each category are practically the same amongst eachother (can anyone really tell con and thm apart at plain sight?). DoW damage dealers all end up using the same buffs (bloodbath, eagle eye or wahtever, don't have XIV open at the time to look at my setup), parsering about the same damage, even using a lot of the same skills (feint for example).

Melees also get to use a few spells from DoM (cure, sacrifice, maybe buffs like protect and such), but that's about it.
Mages pretty much don't use anything from DoW other than mark-traits to get more mind and piety.

Each job is bound to its characteristic weapon so you can't really go and play decently as a mage with physical skills no matter how much str and vit you decide to put in.

I tried out equipping my marauder gear on my thau (mar28, thau 26) and I end up having more defense when wearing my thau equipment.
Vitality's the same, but still marauder gets more base defense and HP while mantaining the same cap.

Why can we even distribute stats as we please if they are going to be converted differently depending on your job while sharing the same cap?

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 12:44am by MajidahSihaam
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FFXI: Dashiel. (Asura) Puppetmaster.
FFXIV: Majidah Sihaam. (Besaid)
Marauder, Weaver & Alchemist.

#2 Jan 18 2011 at 11:07 AM Rating: Default
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435 posts
The armory system was intended to negate the need for alts but fails to do so due to the stat restrictions.

What's better?

1. Having two characters, each with a max level class and an ideal set of gear and you can log onto either one at the drop of a hat to kill a notorious monster with your LS (or any other emergencies).

2. Having one character with two max level classes that cannot be ready to switch between the two with full effectiveness due to the 5 hour stat reallocation in between, meaning that if you're the main tank or healer of your LS, you cannot respec because you may be needed to do your job at any time without warning.

This is why the armory system fails. It attempts to remove the need for alts (SE even charges us monthly for having alts!) but fails because an alt is still a better option if you intend to fill multiple roles, and the ability to fill multiple roles was the entire POINT of the armory system to start with.
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#3 Jan 18 2011 at 11:16 AM Rating: Decent
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800 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
The armory system was intended to negate the need for alts but fails to do so due to the stat restrictions.

What's better?

1. Having two characters, each with a max level class and an ideal set of gear and you can log onto either one at the drop of a hat to kill a notorious monster with your LS (or any other emergencies).

2. Having one character with two max level classes that cannot be ready to switch between the two with full effectiveness due to the 5 hour stat reallocation in between, meaning that if you're the main tank or healer of your LS, you cannot respec because you may be needed to do your job at any time without warning.

This is why the armory system fails. It attempts to remove the need for alts (SE even charges us monthly for having alts!) but fails because an alt is still a better option if you intend to fill multiple roles, and the ability to fill multiple roles was the entire POINT of the armory system to start with.


I don't think SE ever intended us to be able to swap classes to full effectiveness instantly. The whole point of the armory system is a give and take. If you want to be the best Gladiator, you focus on Gladiator. If you want to be a jack of all trades, prepare to be a master of none. People who are expecting to swap from uber tank to uber mage at the drop of a hat are mistaken, that is now how this was designed.

As far as the OP, I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Are you surprised your MAR gear scales down when equipped as a THM? Or surprised that MAR has more base HP? You say VIT stays the same, which it should. So I'm not really sure what you're even complaining about. Everything seems to be working as intended.
#4 Jan 18 2011 at 11:19 AM Rating: Decent
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435 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
I don't think SE ever intended us to be able to swap classes to full effectiveness instantly. The whole point of the armory system is a give and take. If you want to be the best Gladiator, you focus on Gladiator. If you want to be a jack of all trades, prepare to be a master of none. People who are expecting to swap from uber tank to uber mage at the drop of a hat are mistaken, that is now how this was designed.


Then we shouldn't be paying an extra $3 a month for every alt we create, especially when SE specifically lauded the armory system as granting the freedom to play as whatever you want without the need for alts.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 12:20pm by TheRealDestian
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#5 Jan 18 2011 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
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473 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
The armory system was intended to negate the need for alts but fails to do so due to the stat restrictions.

What's better?

1. Having two characters, each with a max level class and an ideal set of gear and you can log onto either one at the drop of a hat to kill a notorious monster with your LS (or any other emergencies).

2. Having one character with two max level classes that cannot be ready to switch between the two with full effectiveness due to the 5 hour stat reallocation in between, meaning that if you're the main tank or healer of your LS, you cannot respec because you may be needed to do your job at any time without warning.

This is why the armory system fails. It attempts to remove the need for alts (SE even charges us monthly for having alts!) but fails because an alt is still a better option if you intend to fill multiple roles, and the ability to fill multiple roles was the entire POINT of the armory system to start with.



I think you are very wrong here. Our max rank is set to 50 for now, no doubt that will go up within a year or so. That i think will be the time we will start seeing more distinction between classes. Also if you look at the planned changes to the armoury system on the lodestone SE is looking to make more changes within the next update tentatively planned for early 2011.
#6 Jan 18 2011 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
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800 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
I don't think SE ever intended us to be able to swap classes to full effectiveness instantly. The whole point of the armory system is a give and take. If you want to be the best Gladiator, you focus on Gladiator. If you want to be a jack of all trades, prepare to be a master of none. People who are expecting to swap from uber tank to uber mage at the drop of a hat are mistaken, that is now how this was designed.


Then we shouldn't be paying an extra $3 a month for every alt we create, especially when SE specifically lauded the armory system as granting the freedom to play as whatever you want without the need for alts.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 12:20pm by TheRealDestian


You CAN play as whatever you want. If you want drastically lopsided stats you just have to wait a little while.

What you're suggesting would cause a huge game balance problem. In FFXI we had to change jobs in a town, but in FFXIV we can change anywhere, so in the interest of game balance, a new restriction needed to be applied.
#7 Jan 18 2011 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
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TheRealDestian wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
I don't think SE ever intended us to be able to swap classes to full effectiveness instantly. The whole point of the armory system is a give and take. If you want to be the best Gladiator, you focus on Gladiator. If you want to be a jack of all trades, prepare to be a master of none. People who are expecting to swap from uber tank to uber mage at the drop of a hat are mistaken, that is now how this was designed.


Then we shouldn't be paying an extra $3 a month for every alt we create, especially when SE specifically lauded the armory system as granting the freedom to play as whatever you want without the need for alts.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 12:20pm by TheRealDestian


could I see a link/quote?

SE never said anything about alts. We do have the freedom to play as whatever you want. That does not equal the freedom to be the best at everything instantly at the drop of a hat. You can use the guildmark abilities to help boost you while switching your stats over. No you won't go from being the best tank to the best mage immediately - but that is working as intended.
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#8 Jan 18 2011 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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473 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
I don't think SE ever intended us to be able to swap classes to full effectiveness instantly. The whole point of the armory system is a give and take. If you want to be the best Gladiator, you focus on Gladiator. If you want to be a jack of all trades, prepare to be a master of none. People who are expecting to swap from uber tank to uber mage at the drop of a hat are mistaken, that is now how this was designed.


Then we shouldn't be paying an extra $3 a month for every alt we create, especially when SE specifically lauded the armory system as granting the freedom to play as whatever you want without the need for alts.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 12:20pm by TheRealDestian


could I see a link/quote?

SE never said anything about alts. We do have the freedom to play as whatever you want. That does not equal the freedom to be the best at everything instantly at the drop of a hat. You can use the guildmark abilities to help boost you while switching your stats over. No you won't go from being the best tank to the best mage immediately - but that is working as intended.



Olorinus as usual I agree with you, the armoury system allows us to access most of the current on content on the fly. Also at this moment most anyone gearing towards say DoW will have most of their stats set for and of those roles. however, using the guild marks stats you can tweak uses of skills from DoM to bolster urself.

I like the flexibility of the armoury system and would like it to stay as it is. Personally for all DoW I believe the option to set your attacks to auto and be able to fine tune the auto attack speed would be great. it relieves the need to keep pressing 1 all the time and allow the user to have more control of TP actions and job abilities, as well help for the better implementation of BR's in battle.
#9 Jan 18 2011 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
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602 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
The armory system was intended to negate the need for alts but fails to do so due to the stat restrictions.

What's better?

1. Having two characters, each with a max level class and an ideal set of gear and you can log onto either one at the drop of a hat to kill a notorious monster with your LS (or any other emergencies).

2. Having one character with two max level classes that cannot be ready to switch between the two with full effectiveness due to the 5 hour stat reallocation in between, meaning that if you're the main tank or healer of your LS, you cannot respec because you may be needed to do your job at any time without warning.

This is why the armory system fails. It attempts to remove the need for alts (SE even charges us monthly for having alts!) but fails because an alt is still a better option if you intend to fill multiple roles, and the ability to fill multiple roles was the entire POINT of the armory system to start with.


I don't think SE ever intended us to be able to swap classes to full effectiveness instantly. The whole point of the armory system is a give and take. If you want to be the best Gladiator, you focus on Gladiator. If you want to be a jack of all trades, prepare to be a master of none. People who are expecting to swap from uber tank to uber mage at the drop of a hat are mistaken, that is now how this was designed.

As far as the OP, I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Are you surprised your MAR gear scales down when equipped as a THM? Or surprised that MAR has more base HP? You say VIT stays the same, which it should. So I'm not really sure what you're even complaining about. Everything seems to be working as intended.


What I'm getting at is that stat points are converted differently into things like vit = DEF & HP based on the job you have WHILE still mantaining the same cap.
Say I want to make a mage tank. Having the same ammount of VIT as a maxed out tank isn't enough. And its impossible to get more than that because we are both bound by the same cap.
Whats the point in making stats customizeable when we're bound by how the job converts it all while sharing the same cap?
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FFXI: Dashiel. (Asura) Puppetmaster.
FFXIV: Majidah Sihaam. (Besaid)
Marauder, Weaver & Alchemist.

#10 Jan 18 2011 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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Things you can do to ensure you can change jobs effectively:

-buy guildmark stat switching traits and equip them when needed
-eat rank appropriate food with your stats in the range needed to get maximum effectiveness for it. I get more than 50 HP from eating beef jerky on my GLA at R19
-Don't completely stack your stats to one side or the other. You are wasting points (because each point added to high stats costs more) and yes, if you do this you WILL suck if you try to switch from DoW to DoM/vice versa
-Wear job and level appropriate gear

You're free to play how you like - but don't complain if the way you decide to play nerfs you. It is like equipping /drg as a sub and then complaining that you can't summon a drake. That is just the game's rules. You can hate them or you can be smart about them.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 9:35am by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#11 Jan 18 2011 at 11:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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800 posts
MajidahSihaam wrote:

What I'm getting at is that stat points are converted differently into things like vit = DEF & HP based on the job you have WHILE still mantaining the same cap.
Say I want to make a mage tank. Having the same ammount of VIT as a maxed out tank isn't enough. And its impossible to get more than that because we are both bound by the same cap.
Whats the point in making stats customizeable when we're bound by how the job converts it all while sharing the same cap?


I think I get it now. Since Marauder HP is calculated by HP = VIT x 5 and Thaumaturge is HP = VIT x 3 (made up formulas), you're saying it's a bad system? Would you expect a mage to have as much "toughness" as a tank? Doesn't that further mesh together the already poor job differentiability?

Historically, mage tanks tanked by clever use of spells and abilities, not by being meat shields like heavy-armor tanks are. I see no problem with mages getting less HP per VIT point as long as they get proportionately more MP per MND point. A good mage tank shouldn't need a big HP number.
#12 Jan 18 2011 at 11:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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473 posts
MajidahSihaam wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
The armory system was intended to negate the need for alts but fails to do so due to the stat restrictions.

What's better?

1. Having two characters, each with a max level class and an ideal set of gear and you can log onto either one at the drop of a hat to kill a notorious monster with your LS (or any other emergencies).

2. Having one character with two max level classes that cannot be ready to switch between the two with full effectiveness due to the 5 hour stat reallocation in between, meaning that if you're the main tank or healer of your LS, you cannot respec because you may be needed to do your job at any time without warning.

This is why the armory system fails. It attempts to remove the need for alts (SE even charges us monthly for having alts!) but fails because an alt is still a better option if you intend to fill multiple roles, and the ability to fill multiple roles was the entire POINT of the armory system to start with.


I don't think SE ever intended us to be able to swap classes to full effectiveness instantly. The whole point of the armory system is a give and take. If you want to be the best Gladiator, you focus on Gladiator. If you want to be a jack of all trades, prepare to be a master of none. People who are expecting to swap from uber tank to uber mage at the drop of a hat are mistaken, that is now how this was designed.

As far as the OP, I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Are you surprised your MAR gear scales down when equipped as a THM? Or surprised that MAR has more base HP? You say VIT stays the same, which it should. So I'm not really sure what you're even complaining about. Everything seems to be working as intended.


What I'm getting at is that stat points are converted differently into things like vit = DEF & HP based on the job you have WHILE still mantaining the same cap.
Say I want to make a mage tank. Having the same ammount of VIT as a maxed out tank isn't enough. And its impossible to get more than that because we are both bound by the same cap.
Whats the point in making stats customizeable when we're bound by how the job converts it all while sharing the same cap?


Its because mages will tank differently thank a glad meant to mitigate damage. As Well the VIT will help for increasing your hp but for a mage its the enffebles that will allow you to tank as a mage. Using skills like absorb attack and defence, punishing barbs, slow, bio. Seriously though the point allotment is not meant just for DoW and DoM, its also plays a heavy role in the crafting and gathering classes. So it is best to not dump all points into 2-3 key stats but have spreads that favour classes you like to play.

This is why it is set up like it is, and yes of course every classes is going to have different percentages of effectiveness for evey stat . . . . .

/sigh
#13 Jan 18 2011 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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Speeral wrote:


I like the flexibility of the armoury system and would like it to stay as it is. Personally for all DoW I believe the option to set your attacks to auto and be able to fine tune the auto attack speed would be great. it relieves the need to keep pressing 1 all the time and allow the user to have more control of TP actions and job abilities, as well help for the better implementation of BR's in battle.


I have been against auto-attack but playing GLA more I see how it would be nice if there was some low damage thing that was getting me TP while I did stuff like raise my shield and provoking and stuff. I think it would be hard to balance with the stamina system etc, however... and there are benefits to not having auto attack (making it easier to avoid smacking that enemy your teamate just slept or your dagger just slept etc).

I am on the fence about auto-attack atm.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 9:40am by Olorinus
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#14 Jan 18 2011 at 11:46 AM Rating: Default
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602 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:

What I'm getting at is that stat points are converted differently into things like vit = DEF & HP based on the job you have WHILE still mantaining the same cap.
Say I want to make a mage tank. Having the same ammount of VIT as a maxed out tank isn't enough. And its impossible to get more than that because we are both bound by the same cap.
Whats the point in making stats customizeable when we're bound by how the job converts it all while sharing the same cap?


I think I get it now. Since Marauder HP is calculated by HP = VIT x 5 and Thaumaturge is HP = VIT x 3 (made up formulas), you're saying it's a bad system? Would you expect a mage to have as much "toughness" as a tank? Doesn't that further mesh together the already poor job differentiability?

Historically, mage tanks tanked by clever use of spells and abilities, not by being meat shields like heavy-armor tanks are. I see no problem with mages getting less HP per VIT point as long as they get proportionately more MP per MND point. A good mage tank shouldn't need a big HP number.


(still hypotetical numbers)
the case is that Marauder HP is calculated by 5 x HP = VIT and Thaumaturge is 3 x HP = VIT and the max VIT they both can get is 15 (all jobs share the same cap http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=12895716242505663&page=1 ). So MAR gets more HP per allocation, and since there's a cap on how much vit you can get, THM is unable to catch up by lowering other attributes. Its set in stone by the system that mages have low defense and HP and that melees have low MP (putting an example). So its not customizeable at all.

They could have as easily skipped the entire stats allocation system since it makes virtually no difference. Which I don't think its the way to go.
Personally I'd prefer to either adjust the caps individually per job or make the points convert to equal stats in every job.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 12:49pm by MajidahSihaam
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Marauder, Weaver & Alchemist.

#15 Jan 18 2011 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I think you are very wrong here. Our max rank is set to 50 for now, no doubt that will go up within a year or so. That i think will be the time we will start seeing more distinction between classes.


I'm sorry but this is seriously wrong. By 50 levels you should have an almost genuine definition of your main job by then. Considering the investment in 1-50 I'd almost go to say the job should be defining itself right around the lv. 28-30. That range should be where your job defining abilities start coming into play and sets you apart from the next job.
#16 Jan 18 2011 at 11:55 AM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Speeral wrote:


I like the flexibility of the armoury system and would like it to stay as it is. Personally for all DoW I believe the option to set your attacks to auto and be able to fine tune the auto attack speed would be great. it relieves the need to keep pressing 1 all the time and allow the user to have more control of TP actions and job abilities, as well help for the better implementation of BR's in battle.


I have been against auto-attack but playing GLA more I see how it would be nice if there was some low damage thing that was getting me TP while I did stuff like raise my shield and provoking and stuff. I think it would be hard to balance with the stamina system etc, however... and there are benefits to not having auto attack (making it easier to avoid smacking that enemy your teamate just slept or your dagger just slept etc).

I am on the fence about auto-attack atm.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 9:40am by Olorinus



That's why I would go with a customizable auto attack system. GLA can slow its auto attack rate down to manage vokes and uses of gaurd. Were say a LNC can up it due to the use of speed surge. This would also bring in a level of role balance.
Making it cost stamina also makes the player aware of rate of when to use their tp skills and abilities. It is going to take some balancing but these ideas are what will drive the dev teams direction and bring innovation to the game and genre.

I've played very little GLA and at the early levels no need for a shield but once you get up there and need to mitgate damage and use some of the shield proc abilities it does make sense. Another thing I would propose is change up gaurd altogether . . . make it so the action to lower your shield gave a damage boost and improved stamina usage for normal or special attacks. Thinking about it makes sense to me, and let me know what you think when does a shield user not have their shield up? it does make sense at least i think.
#17 Jan 18 2011 at 11:55 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
-Buy guildmark stat switching traits and equip them when needed

Sadly this only gives you a maximum of 15 stat points in either direction (equipping both tier 1 and 2 traits) and eats up slots you can use for other traits such as Fastcast or Firm Conviction for example. Not exactly a huge impact, sadly.

-Eat rank appropriate food with your stats in the range needed to get maximum effectiveness for it. I get more than 50 HP from eating beef jerky on my GLA at R19
That's great, but foods don't list the stats they raise nor will you know if it's appropriate for your class and rank until you've eaten it. Much like FFXI you really have to do your research on this one before eating anything, and the majority of foods have less than impressive bonuses anyway.

-Don't completely stack your stats to one side or the other. You are wasting points (because each point added to high stats costs more) and yes, if you do this you WILL suck if you try to switch from DoW to DoM/vice versa.
Effectively that's choosing to be mediocre in all areas rather than just one. There's a lot to sacrifice by not specialising, although I suspect that's why stats have a greatly diminished effect compared to FFXI.

-Wear job and level appropriate gear
Agreed, but often times slightly higher ranked gear gives you greater bonuses than ones of comparable rank, despite the reductions. This can also happen on gear not tailored for your class. It's a very grey issue at the moment.

You're free to play how you like - but don't complain if the way you decide to play nerfs you. It is like equipping /drg as a sub and then complaining that you can't summon a drake. That is just the game's rules. You can hate them or you can be smart about them.

The problem is the way the game is arranged to actively encourage levelling multiple classes, yet the statistics system actively encourages levelling only a few. In order to get the most out of the game you will need to level multiple classes and mix the different skills of them to create your ultimate build. The downside of this is that by switching classes you're playing at a fraction of your effectiveness thanks to the lengthy reset times on points. It just seems contradictory and unnecessary.
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#18 Jan 18 2011 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Speeral wrote:


I like the flexibility of the armoury system and would like it to stay as it is. Personally for all DoW I believe the option to set your attacks to auto and be able to fine tune the auto attack speed would be great. it relieves the need to keep pressing 1 all the time and allow the user to have more control of TP actions and job abilities, as well help for the better implementation of BR's in battle.


I have been against auto-attack but playing GLA more I see how it would be nice if there was some low damage thing that was getting me TP while I did stuff like raise my shield and provoking and stuff. I think it would be hard to balance with the stamina system etc, however... and there are benefits to not having auto attack (making it easier to avoid smacking that enemy your teamate just slept or your dagger just slept etc).

I am on the fence about auto-attack atm.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 9:40am by Olorinus


I really don't think it would be hard at all to have an auto attack in the current system. Really all you have to do is put the auto attack on a delay that runs independent of stamina, and then adjust (increase) stamina costs of everything else to compensate.
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#19 Jan 18 2011 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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Glitterhands wrote:
The problem is the way the game is arranged to actively encourage levelling multiple classes, yet the statistics system actively encourages levelling only a few. In order to get the most out of the game you will need to level multiple classes and mix the different skills of them to create your ultimate build. The downside of this is that by switching classes you're playing at a fraction of your effectiveness thanks to the lengthy reset times on points. It just seems contradictory and unnecessary.


A thousand times, THIS.

The system is schizophrenic to the nth degree.

You can have alts, but you're going to have to pay extra for them while other MMOs give you alts for free, so the armory system makes up for it, except that the armory system only allows you to be truly effective with ONE class on a moment's notice, and since the game has random events like NMs popping up that NEED you to be at your best at a moment's notice, you cannot spec away from what you're best at, meaning you have to choose between being horribly gimped at any other class and disappointing your LS when you can't do your job.

This is dramatically LESS freedom than other MMOs offer their players...


Olorinus the Vile wrote:
could I see a link/quote?

SE never said anything about alts. We do have the freedom to play as whatever you want. That does not equal the freedom to be the best at everything instantly at the drop of a hat. You can use the guildmark abilities to help boost you while switching your stats over. No you won't go from being the best tank to the best mage immediately - but that is working as intended.


The armory system was clearly intended to negate the need for alts.

Why else would we be ACTIVELY DISCOURAGED from having alts (via having to pay an extra monthly fee per alt) when other MMOs give you 10 character slots for the same $15 per month (such as WoW and Aion)? I don't think we need a quote from SE confirming this.

Alts add replay value to content because you can experience the same content multiple times with multiple characters. However, the armory system actually discourages replaying the game with a new class due to the fact that you're getting diminishing returns from every class you level if you're going to be forced to have a main at 50 anyway. The cross-class skills also tend to be gimped and become less and less of a carrot on a stick for you as you realize you won't be able to fit all the ones you want on your action bar anyway.

People keep saying that being "going from a full powered mage to glad immediately" will be overpowering and ruin the game, but EVERY MMO where we had alts allowed you to do EXACTLY this and it didn't break those games. Why would it break FFXIV?

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 1:29pm by TheRealDestian
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#20 Jan 18 2011 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Speeral wrote:


I like the flexibility of the armoury system and would like it to stay as it is. Personally for all DoW I believe the option to set your attacks to auto and be able to fine tune the auto attack speed would be great. it relieves the need to keep pressing 1 all the time and allow the user to have more control of TP actions and job abilities, as well help for the better implementation of BR's in battle.


I have been against auto-attack but playing GLA more I see how it would be nice if there was some low damage thing that was getting me TP while I did stuff like raise my shield and provoking and stuff. I think it would be hard to balance with the stamina system etc, however... and there are benefits to not having auto attack (making it easier to avoid smacking that enemy your teamate just slept or your dagger just slept etc).

I am on the fence about auto-attack atm.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 9:40am by Olorinus


I really don't think it would be hard at all to have an auto attack in the current system. Really all you have to do is put the auto attack on a delay that runs independent of stamina, and then adjust (increase) stamina costs of everything else to compensate.


^ Ive said that same thing quite a few times when people say how hard it is to have auto-attack, its pretty simple, gets rid of having to mash 1 a lot and still keeps the system the same in pretty much every way. WHy people want to have to hit 1 many times beats me, i know plenty of people who think its pointless and takes away from skill focus and actually being able to talk (since we are playing with others from around the world, we cant always use outside chat, nor will everyone have it being on different platforms and such)
#21 Jan 18 2011 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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800 posts
I think you guys are over-exaggerating the loss of effectiveness from a single stat reallocation. Assuming you play a min/maxed job, switching to an opposite style job and one reallocation will get you enough effectiveness to do the vast majority of game content. Perhaps only the rank 50 NMs would require min/maxed attributes.

Just because you feel less effective because your STR isn't as high as it physically could be doesn't mean you can't complete a leve or participate in behest etc. Sure you may do 50 less damage per hit, but what effect does that really have? In no way does one stat reallocation make you "horribly gimped" or reduce you to a "fraction of your effectiveness".
#22 Jan 18 2011 at 12:31 PM Rating: Default
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435 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
I think you guys are over-exaggerating the loss of effectiveness from a single stat reallocation. Assuming you play a min/maxed job, switching to an opposite style job and one reallocation will get you enough effectiveness to do the vast majority of game content. Perhaps only the rank 50 NMs would require min/maxed attributes.

Just because you feel less effective because your STR isn't as high as it physically could be doesn't mean you can't complete a leve or participate in behest etc. Sure you may do 50 less damage per hit, but what effect does that really have? In no way does one stat reallocation make you "horribly gimped" or reduce you to a "fraction of your effectiveness".


BartelX has confirmed that you need to have maxed VIT as a Glad in order to survive NM TP attacks, meaning that, yes, you either stay one respec away from being able to be a fully-powered glad again or you let down your LS, meaning you're locked off from ever playing an effective healer or ranged DD, even if you level the class to 50.

That sucks.
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#23 Jan 18 2011 at 12:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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146 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Speeral wrote:


I like the flexibility of the armoury system and would like it to stay as it is. Personally for all DoW I believe the option to set your attacks to auto and be able to fine tune the auto attack speed would be great. it relieves the need to keep pressing 1 all the time and allow the user to have more control of TP actions and job abilities, as well help for the better implementation of BR's in battle.


I have been against auto-attack but playing GLA more I see how it would be nice if there was some low damage thing that was getting me TP while I did stuff like raise my shield and provoking and stuff. I think it would be hard to balance with the stamina system etc, however... and there are benefits to not having auto attack (making it easier to avoid smacking that enemy your teamate just slept or your dagger just slept etc).

I am on the fence about auto-attack atm.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 9:40am by Olorinus


Very good points.

I say make it optional and customizable (frequency of attacks, selection of the auto-attack ability (like light stab vs light slash vs heavy slash etc.))
#24 Jan 18 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
**
435 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
You CAN play as whatever you want. If you want drastically lopsided stats you just have to wait a little while.

What you're suggesting would cause a huge game balance problem. In FFXI we had to change jobs in a town, but in FFXIV we can change anywhere, so in the interest of game balance, a new restriction needed to be applied.


So...

A) Get full class effectiveness by going to your mog house.

or

B) Get full class effectiveness by waiting 5 hours for a full respec.

Other games let you level alts and get to pretty much anywhere in 10-15 minutes (even games as old as Lineage 1 did this...). You could effectively switch classes in 15 minutes and be back to fight.

And guess what? It didn't hurt game balance ONE IOTA. ****, players could still do this in FFXIV, provided they're willing to pay the extra $3 a month to have the alt...

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 1:38pm by TheRealDestian
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#25 Jan 18 2011 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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800 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
You CAN play as whatever you want. If you want drastically lopsided stats you just have to wait a little while.

What you're suggesting would cause a huge game balance problem. In FFXI we had to change jobs in a town, but in FFXIV we can change anywhere, so in the interest of game balance, a new restriction needed to be applied.


So...

A) Get full class effectiveness by going to your mog house.

or

B) Get full class effectiveness by waiting 5 hours for a full respec.

...


You'd prefer being able to swap to any job to full effectiveness at any time, any where, instantly? You don't see how that could cause balance problems?
#26 Jan 18 2011 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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473 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Things you can do to ensure you can change jobs effectively:

-buy guildmark stat switching traits and equip them when needed
-eat rank appropriate food with your stats in the range needed to get maximum effectiveness for it. I get more than 50 HP from eating beef jerky on my GLA at R19
-Don't completely stack your stats to one side or the other. You are wasting points (because each point added to high stats costs more) and yes, if you do this you WILL suck if you try to switch from DoW to DoM/vice versa
-Wear job and level appropriate gear

You're free to play how you like - but don't complain if the way you decide to play nerfs you. It is like equipping /drg as a sub and then complaining that you can't summon a drake. That is just the game's rules. You can hate them or you can be smart about them.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 9:35am by Olorinus


If swearing was permitted I would exclaim to you sir that you

JUST HIT THE NAIL ON THE F&*^ing head!!!!!!!

That what I've been trying to get accross, and many just say well that isn't fair I want to PWN on every class right now, which isn't absolutely necessary at this stage in the game.

/bow
#27 Jan 18 2011 at 12:39 PM Rating: Decent
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435 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
You'd prefer being able to swap to any job to full effectiveness at any time, any where, instantly? You don't see how that could cause balance problems?


Why don't you explain to me how it could cause balance problems.

You still can't change classes mid-fight (if any mob has ANY aggro on you), so how is this unbalancing?

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 1:40pm by TheRealDestian
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#28 Jan 18 2011 at 12:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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473 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
You CAN play as whatever you want. If you want drastically lopsided stats you just have to wait a little while.

What you're suggesting would cause a huge game balance problem. In FFXI we had to change jobs in a town, but in FFXIV we can change anywhere, so in the interest of game balance, a new restriction needed to be applied.


So...

A) Get full class effectiveness by going to your mog house.

or

B) Get full class effectiveness by waiting 5 hours for a full respec.

...


You'd prefer being able to swap to any job to full effectiveness at any time, any where, instantly? You don't see how that could cause balance problems?



Sorry but in FFXi for full effectiveness Merits/Gear/Food is how you became most effective to your job, not switching it. Yes every job had stats geared towards their role, but in XIV you can out stat yourself to a role and begin to see diminishing returns on the stat investment as you level. The key here with stats is balance and figuring out where stats for classes do cap and keep your primary stats inline with those caps and allocating points as needed using marks and the reallocation ability.

Here gear and eating optimal rank food is the best way to be most effective.
#29 Jan 18 2011 at 12:42 PM Rating: Default
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435 posts
Speeral wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Things you can do to ensure you can change jobs effectively:

-buy guildmark stat switching traits and equip them when needed
-eat rank appropriate food with your stats in the range needed to get maximum effectiveness for it. I get more than 50 HP from eating beef jerky on my GLA at R19
-Don't completely stack your stats to one side or the other. You are wasting points (because each point added to high stats costs more) and yes, if you do this you WILL suck if you try to switch from DoW to DoM/vice versa
-Wear job and level appropriate gear

You're free to play how you like - but don't complain if the way you decide to play nerfs you. It is like equipping /drg as a sub and then complaining that you can't summon a drake. That is just the game's rules. You can hate them or you can be smart about them.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 9:35am by Olorinus


If swearing was permitted I would exclaim to you sir that you

JUST HIT THE NAIL ON THE F&*^ing head!!!!!!!

That what I've been trying to get accross, and many just say well that isn't fair I want to PWN on every class right now, which isn't absolutely necessary at this stage in the game.

/bow


And like Lemuria said...

-Buy guildmark stat switching traits and equip them when needed

Sadly this only gives you a maximum of 15 stat points in either direction (equipping both tier 1 and 2 traits) and eats up slots you can use for other traits such as Fastcast or Firm Conviction for example. Not exactly a huge impact, sadly.

-Eat rank appropriate food with your stats in the range needed to get maximum effectiveness for it. I get more than 50 HP from eating beef jerky on my GLA at R19
That's great, but foods don't list the stats they raise nor will you know if it's appropriate for your class and rank until you've eaten it. Much like FFXI you really have to do your research on this one before eating anything, and the majority of foods have less than impressive bonuses anyway.

-Don't completely stack your stats to one side or the other. You are wasting points (because each point added to high stats costs more) and yes, if you do this you WILL suck if you try to switch from DoW to DoM/vice versa.

Effectively that's choosing to be mediocre in all areas rather than just one. There's a lot to sacrifice by not specialising, although I suspect that's why stats have a greatly diminished effect compared to FFXI.

-Wear job and level appropriate gear

Agreed, but often times slightly higher ranked gear gives you greater bonuses than ones of comparable rank, despite the reductions. This can also happen on gear not tailored for your class. It's a very grey issue at the moment.


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#30 Jan 18 2011 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
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146 posts
Glitterhands wrote:
Quote:
-Buy guildmark stat switching traits and equip them when needed

Sadly this only gives you a maximum of 15 stat points in either direction (equipping both tier 1 and 2 traits) and eats up slots you can use for other traits such as Fastcast or Firm Conviction for example. Not exactly a huge impact, sadly.

-Eat rank appropriate food with your stats in the range needed to get maximum effectiveness for it. I get more than 50 HP from eating beef jerky on my GLA at R19
That's great, but foods don't list the stats they raise nor will you know if it's appropriate for your class and rank until you've eaten it. Much like FFXI you really have to do your research on this one before eating anything, and the majority of foods have less than impressive bonuses anyway.

-Don't completely stack your stats to one side or the other. You are wasting points (because each point added to high stats costs more) and yes, if you do this you WILL suck if you try to switch from DoW to DoM/vice versa.
Effectively that's choosing to be mediocre in all areas rather than just one. There's a lot to sacrifice by not specialising, although I suspect that's why stats have a greatly diminished effect compared to FFXI.

-Wear job and level appropriate gear
Agreed, but often times slightly higher ranked gear gives you greater bonuses than ones of comparable rank, despite the reductions. This can also happen on gear not tailored for your class. It's a very grey issue at the moment.

You're free to play how you like - but don't complain if the way you decide to play nerfs you. It is like equipping /drg as a sub and then complaining that you can't summon a drake. That is just the game's rules. You can hate them or you can be smart about them.

The problem is the way the game is arranged to actively encourage levelling multiple classes, yet the statistics system actively encourages levelling only a few. In order to get the most out of the game you will need to level multiple classes and mix the different skills of them to create your ultimate build. The downside of this is that by switching classes you're playing at a fraction of your effectiveness thanks to the lengthy reset times on points. It just seems contradictory and unnecessary.


IMHO, yes and no.

1) Basically, all DoW focus more or less evenly on STR-VIT-DEX (one job compared to another I mean, although Gla will focus more on VIT), while DoM focus more on the other 3s + VIT for solo. So yeah, if you want to switch just like that from DoM to DoW you are penalised, but remaining in the same category of classes won't need a major stat overhaul.

They just need to shorten the cool down for stats reallocation (and have an option so you don't have to change elements all the times too) to improve flexibility, but for sakes of balance, I still think there needs to be a cool down.

2) If you actually level multiple classes from different categories, very quickly, your Phys. level will get much higher than each individual classes', meaning you will have tons of points available to distribute in the different stats because you will be closer to the cap for your rank 25 Mrd, for example, when your Phys is 37.

Granted, the penalty becomes higher for higher ranks players. Probably you will have a main class at this point tho.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 1:55pm by northernsky
#31 Jan 18 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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800 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
You'd prefer being able to swap to any job to full effectiveness at any time, any where, instantly? You don't see how that could cause balance problems?


Why don't you explain to me how it could cause balance problems.


During, say, a difficult NM fight a DD could disengage, change to a mage to re-buff the party at full effectiveness. Then swap back to DD and re-engage. No need to have a dedicated buffer. Same could be done with enfeebling.

Or your tank goes down, so a full effectiveness DD swaps to Gladiator at full effectiveness and takes right over with no penalties while the original tank recovers. Who needs back up tanks?

I could see asking for a shorter cool-down for re-allocating stats. But wanting a complete and instant re-allocation is asking for exploits.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 12:47pm by Hydragyrum
#32 Jan 18 2011 at 12:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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800 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:

You still can't change classes mid-fight (if any mob has ANY aggro on you), so how is this unbalancing?


I change from my gathering classes to my archer every time I get aggro with no penalty. Are you telling me you can't disengage and swap between combat classes?
#33 Jan 18 2011 at 12:46 PM Rating: Good
****
9,526 posts
Glitterhands wrote:

-Eat rank appropriate food with your stats in the range needed to get maximum effectiveness for it. I get more than 50 HP from eating beef jerky on my GLA at R19
That's great, but foods don't list the stats they raise nor will you know if it's appropriate for your class and rank until you've eaten it. Much like FFXI you really have to do your research on this one before eating anything, and the majority of foods have less than impressive bonuses anyway.


Yes, you do have to do research... but I don't think that 50+ HP on a base of 720ish HP is that small of a boost - that's around 7 per cent (tasty). When I added 2 points to strength that went up to about 8 per cent (delicious).

You're telling me a 7-8 per cent increase in your HP isn't worthwhile? People just have the wrong stats for the food - meaning it doesn't work properly. People don't use food correctly (like stats) and then say it is broken. Part of how peoples stats are wrong - is they are too high or too low. Food only works at optimum efficiency when you are in the correct stat range.

What this means is simple - even playing a THM it is worthwhile having decent HP - amirite? Well I can achieve that by spending tons of points in vit - or I can spread out my points a bit into say strength - which is the stat that governs +HP +ATT food like beef jerky

[Jerked Beef]
Optimal Attribute | Optimal affinity
STR: 38/39 (within -4/+4) |or| Fire 30 (within -7/+7)

And then eat beef jerky for an increase of 50+ HP (maybe more - don't know yet if it is percentage based or a flat rate - I'm guessing percentage based it is flat). Then when I switch from THM to GLA I also am not utterly gimped. No - I won't have 100 points in strength but -no one needs 100 points in strength at R20-

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 10:48am by Olorinus

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 10:57am by Olorinus
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#34 Jan 18 2011 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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435 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
During, say, a difficult NM fight a DD could disengage, change to a mage to re-buff the party at full effectiveness. Then swap back to DD and re-engage. No need to have a dedicated buffer. Same could be done with enfeebling.


Last I checked, you cannot change classes so long as even one member of your party is engaged in combat. You also cannot invite additional party members while any member of your party is engaged, meaning a player could not drop, swap and rejoin, meaning that the DD is now unable to attack the NM and will not be able to AoE buff or heal either.

Quote:
Or your tank goes down, so a full effectiveness DD swaps to Gladiator at full effectiveness and takes right over with no penalties while the original tank recovers. Who needs back up tanks?


Again, not possible without restarting the entire encounter because you cannot change classes (and I believe gear as well) while your party has aggroed.

Quote:
I could see asking for a shorter cool-down for re-allocating stats. But wanting an complete and instant allocation is asking for exploits.


Maybe 5 minutes, but anything longer an another LS will have already grabbed the NM you saw first.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 1:51pm by TheRealDestian
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#35 Jan 18 2011 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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435 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:

You still can't change classes mid-fight (if any mob has ANY aggro on you), so how is this unbalancing?


I change from my gathering classes to my archer every time I get aggro with no penalty. Are you telling me you can't disengage and swap between combat classes?


That's because you hadn't damaged the mob yet.

If someone in your party attacks a mob and you're a gathering class, you cannot switch. My fiancee and I tested this (accidentally).

Next time, throw a rock at the mob and then try switching.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 1:52pm by TheRealDestian
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#36 Jan 18 2011 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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146 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
You'd prefer being able to swap to any job to full effectiveness at any time, any where, instantly? You don't see how that could cause balance problems?


Why don't you explain to me how it could cause balance problems.


During, say, a difficult NM fight a DD could disengage, change to a mage to re-buff the party at full effectiveness. Then swap back to DD and re-engage. No need to have a dedicated buffer. Same could be done with enfeebling.

Or your tank goes down, so a full effectiveness DD swaps to Gladiator at full effectiveness and takes right over with no penalties while the original tank recovers. Who needs back up tanks?

I could see asking for a shorter cool-down for re-allocating stats. But wanting a complete and instant re-allocation is asking for exploits.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 12:47pm by Hydragyrum


This, or if they remove the cooldown for stats, add a cooldown for class specific important abilities (high level cures, buffs/debuffs, provoke/taunt, I mean, moves that can make the balance of the battle shift)

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 1:56pm by northernsky
#37 Jan 18 2011 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
**
473 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
Speeral wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Things you can do to ensure you can change jobs effectively:

-buy guildmark stat switching traits and equip them when needed
-eat rank appropriate food with your stats in the range needed to get maximum effectiveness for it. I get more than 50 HP from eating beef jerky on my GLA at R19
-Don't completely stack your stats to one side or the other. You are wasting points (because each point added to high stats costs more) and yes, if you do this you WILL suck if you try to switch from DoW to DoM/vice versa
-Wear job and level appropriate gear

You're free to play how you like - but don't complain if the way you decide to play nerfs you. It is like equipping /drg as a sub and then complaining that you can't summon a drake. That is just the game's rules. You can hate them or you can be smart about them.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 9:35am by Olorinus


If swearing was permitted I would exclaim to you sir that you

JUST HIT THE NAIL ON THE F&*^ing head!!!!!!!

That what I've been trying to get accross, and many just say well that isn't fair I want to PWN on every class right now, which isn't absolutely necessary at this stage in the game.

/bow


And like Lemuria said...

-Buy guildmark stat switching traits and equip them when needed

Sadly this only gives you a maximum of 15 stat points in either direction (equipping both tier 1 and 2 traits) and eats up slots you can use for other traits such as Fastcast or Firm Conviction for example. Not exactly a huge impact, sadly.

-Eat rank appropriate food with your stats in the range needed to get maximum effectiveness for it. I get more than 50 HP from eating beef jerky on my GLA at R19
That's great, but foods don't list the stats they raise nor will you know if it's appropriate for your class and rank until you've eaten it. Much like FFXI you really have to do your research on this one before eating anything, and the majority of foods have less than impressive bonuses anyway.

-Don't completely stack your stats to one side or the other. You are wasting points (because each point added to high stats costs more) and yes, if you do this you WILL suck if you try to switch from DoW to DoM/vice versa.

Effectively that's choosing to be mediocre in all areas rather than just one. There's a lot to sacrifice by not specialising, although I suspect that's why stats have a greatly diminished effect compared to FFXI.

-Wear job and level appropriate gear

Agreed, but often times slightly higher ranked gear gives you greater bonuses than ones of comparable rank, despite the reductions. This can also happen on gear not tailored for your class. It's a very grey issue at the moment.




That's correct there are some pieces where this will work in regards to gear . . . only downside is the higher repair cost to keep ur gear as effective as possible. However, with the economy being as it is gil isn't an issue right now. It is currently the only money sink in the game.
#38 Jan 18 2011 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
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800 posts
Well, then I apologize. I wasn't aware you couldn't change classes after entering combat. And you really can't invite anyone after you start damage? That seems almost too detrimental to parties in general, but that's another discussion.

Still, the only area this becomes relevant is in end-game content. Do people really have multiple rank 50 classes to make this an issue? I guess I don't see any reason why you'd need a full re-allocation at a moments notice.
#39 Jan 18 2011 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
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146 posts
Speeral wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
[quote=Speeral][quote=Olorinus the Vile]



That's correct there are some pieces where this will work in regards to gear . . . only downside is the higher repair cost to keep ur gear as effective as possible. However, with the economy being as it is gil isn't an issue right now. It is currently the only money sink in the game.


I'd be willing to see the repair costs increase drastically if it means NPC can repair at 100%. Then I could be sure that I can resell my gear easily without having to level each craft if I have enough money to afford it.

Why not selecting at which % damage you want your gear repaired with the cost increasing exponentially when you get closer to 100%?
#40 Jan 18 2011 at 1:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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473 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
Well, then I apologize. I wasn't aware you couldn't change classes after entering combat. And you really can't invite anyone after you start damage? That seems almost too detrimental to parties in general, but that's another discussion.

Still, the only area this becomes relevant is in end-game content. Do people really have multiple rank 50 classes to make this an issue? I guess I don't see any reason why you'd need a full re-allocation at a moments notice.



Hydra the main thing is with the current state of the game and the cap being only 50, and virtually no end game content available we won't really see the effects of the stat allocations until high tier content becomes available.

So in actuality you could be 100% right, but no one knows at this point what exactly is optimal or will be optimal. Much of the player base is basing stats according to FFXI experience and what's been posted on the lodestone. We will see in time what works and what does not.
#41 Jan 18 2011 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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435 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
Well, then I apologize. I wasn't aware you couldn't change classes after entering combat. And you really can't invite anyone after you start damage? That seems almost too detrimental to parties in general, but that's another discussion.

Still, the only area this becomes relevant is in end-game content. Do people really have multiple rank 50 classes to make this an issue? I guess I don't see any reason why you'd need a full re-allocation at a moments notice.


I've had the invite thing be a huge problem during a behest: I couldn't invite a player until no one in the party was attacking anything (which happens very rarely in behests).

I'm sorry if I came across as harsh in any way, but I've experienced a great deal of frustration with this system already.

For example, my fiancee is leveling Glad and Culinarian because she loves being a warrior and she loves cooking. However, in order to do this, she must divert points from Glad stats into Piety if she is to have any degree of success with cooking, meaning that she has to be a mediocre tank and a mediocre chef. She's also leveling weaving (to take the strain off of me), and because my stats are spread evenly, I was able to succeed with a synth at 12 that she couldn't at 16.

If stats are enough to make a bigger difference than FOUR ranks of a class, then they clearly play a large role, even at lower levels.

I think a 5 minute reallocate timer would be fine. There's NO chance of exploiting but players would still have the freedom to level whatever they want and not suffer for wanting to try multiple classes.

Speeral wrote:
Hydra the main thing is with the current state of the game and the cap being only 50, and virtually no end game content available we won't really see the effects of the stat allocations until high tier content becomes available.


NMs already show us the effects. NMs are rare spawns with highly sought-after drops, but they can kill a glad without maxed VIT in one TP attack. I've spoken to several 50 glads who are the tank for their LS who have all said this.

This means that they can never be more than one respec away from a perfect glad build, otherwise the LS with the good tank will be able to take down the NM instead. Thus, they either play glad exclusively and only level other classes for novelty or let their LS down.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 2:07pm by TheRealDestian
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#42 Jan 18 2011 at 1:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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473 posts
northernsky wrote:
Speeral wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
[quote=Speeral][quote=Olorinus the Vile]



That's correct there are some pieces where this will work in regards to gear . . . only downside is the higher repair cost to keep ur gear as effective as possible. However, with the economy being as it is gil isn't an issue right now. It is currently the only money sink in the game.


I'd be willing to see the repair costs increase drastically if it means NPC can repair at 100%. Then I could be sure that I can resell my gear easily without having to level each craft if I have enough money to afford it.

Why not selecting at which % damage you want your gear repaired with the cost increasing exponentially when you get closer to 100%?



That's a good point and something SE should look at. I am bringing WOW into this because for gear damage I like the way gear repair cost is done. If you pay the NPC its repaired to full. IN XIV though I believe the reasoning to having it repaired to 75% at an absurdly high price is to promote seeking repairs via crafters and not being solely self sufficient(the casual approach), hardcore would having every DoH ranked to 50 and having all mats always on hand. Then again from an inventory stand point is that even functional?

I truly believe the repair system is very much meant to encourage social interaction between the community.
#43 Jan 18 2011 at 1:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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9,526 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:


BartelX has confirmed that you need to have maxed VIT as a Glad in order to survive NM TP attacks

That sucks.


Bartel X has confirmed HE needs max VIT to tank. I'd like to see some other testamonials. Is bartel using food to increase max HP? Or just VIT?
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#44 Jan 18 2011 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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435 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:


BartelX has confirmed that you need to have maxed VIT as a Glad in order to survive NM TP attacks

That sucks.


Bartel X has confirmed HE needs max VIT to tank. I'd like to see some other testamonials. Is bartel using food to increase max HP? Or just VIT?


The other glad from the thread said the same thing.

But even if we're not talking MAXED VIT, we're definitely still not talking about enough stat swing to be able to play as any other class effectively in the end game (and not even while leveling, either).

Same goes for a dedicated healer who wants to level a DD or tank class: they won't ever be able to use the class effectively because they need to stay specced for healing and buffing, lest a NM pop and they won't be able to have the mana pool to heal through it.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 2:10pm by TheRealDestian
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#45 Jan 18 2011 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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146 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
Well, then I apologize. I wasn't aware you couldn't change classes after entering combat. And you really can't invite anyone after you start damage? That seems almost too detrimental to parties in general, but that's another discussion.

Still, the only area this becomes relevant is in end-game content. Do people really have multiple rank 50 classes to make this an issue? I guess I don't see any reason why you'd need a full re-allocation at a moments notice.


I've had the invite thing be a huge problem during a behest: I couldn't invite a player until no one in the party was attacking anything (which happens very rarely in behests).

I'm sorry if I came across as harsh in any way, but I've experienced a great deal of frustration with this system already.

For example, my fiancee is leveling Glad and Culinarian because she loves being a warrior and she loves cooking. However, in order to do this, she must divert points from Glad stats into Piety if she is to have any degree of success with cooking, meaning that she has to be a mediocre tank and a mediocre chef. She's also leveling weaving (to take the strain off of me), and because my stats are spread evenly, I was able to succeed with a synth at 12 that she couldn't at 16.

If stats are enough to make a bigger difference than FOUR ranks of a class, then they clearly play a large role, even at lower levels.

I think a 5 minute reallocate timer would be fine. There's NO chance of exploiting but players would still have the freedom to level whatever they want and not suffer for wanting to try multiple classes.


You bring a very good point if your wife is low rank and only play those 2-3 classes, which is representative of a casual player.

But with the gap between your Phys rank and any individual class (from your signature), you probably had every single stat higher, so it maybe it was not a question of stat balancing like you seem to be prentending.

Then again, if I'm a very casual player who only wants to level, say, Mrd and Thm pretty much evenly, I'm greatly penalised.
#46 Jan 18 2011 at 1:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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800 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
For example, my fiancee is leveling Glad and Culinarian because she loves being a warrior and she loves cooking. However, in order to do this, she must divert points from Glad stats into Piety if she is to have any degree of success with cooking, meaning that she has to be a mediocre tank and a mediocre chef. She's also leveling weaving (to take the strain off of me), and because my stats are spread evenly, I was able to succeed with a synth at 12 that she couldn't at 16.


In this case, it could be that your physical levels are drastically different as well. With a higher physical level you'll have more stat points total and so with a broad stat build, you may be at PIE cap for your cook whereas she may not be able to reach PIE cap, even with a lopsided stat build.

This is one case where leveling many jobs definitely does benefit you. More physical levels = more stats = less need for re-allocation since you may be over the rank cap anyhow.
#47 Jan 18 2011 at 1:13 PM Rating: Default
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435 posts
northernsky wrote:
You bring a very good point if your wife is low rank and only play those 2-3 classes, which is representative of a casual player.

But with the gap between your Phys rank and any individual class (from your signature), you probably had every single stat higher, so it maybe it was not a question of stat balancing like you seem to be prentending.

Then again, if I'm a very casual player who only wants to level, say, Mrd and Thm pretty much evenly, I'm greatly penalised.


She's physical level 32 or 33 (I can't remember now) and I'm 35. I have my points even with 54 on every stat (I believe). I'm passable at everything but I excel at nothing.

I'm not sure what she had in the weaving stat (is it mind? I'm not even sure) but all I know is that 4 levels was outdone by stat allocation, even at rank 12 to 16.

This says to me that stats have a substantial effect on how well we perform at our classes but we're not getting the benefit most of the time.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 2:14pm by TheRealDestian
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#48 Jan 18 2011 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
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146 posts
Speeral wrote:
northernsky wrote:
Speeral wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
[quote=Speeral][quote=Olorinus the Vile]



That's correct there are some pieces where this will work in regards to gear . . . only downside is the higher repair cost to keep ur gear as effective as possible. However, with the economy being as it is gil isn't an issue right now. It is currently the only money sink in the game.


I'd be willing to see the repair costs increase drastically if it means NPC can repair at 100%. Then I could be sure that I can resell my gear easily without having to level each craft if I have enough money to afford it.

Why not selecting at which % damage you want your gear repaired with the cost increasing exponentially when you get closer to 100%?



That's a good point and something SE should look at. I am bringing WOW into this because for gear damage I like the way gear repair cost is done. If you pay the NPC its repaired to full. IN XIV though I believe the reasoning to having it repaired to 75% at an absurdly high price is to promote seeking repairs via crafters and not being solely self sufficient(the casual approach), hardcore would having every DoH ranked to 50 and having all mats always on hand. Then again from an inventory stand point is that even functional?

I truly believe the repair system is very much meant to encourage social interaction between the community.


I can see that and that's great, but then I need a way to know who can possibly repair my gear without having to beg to random guys.

Repair Wards?

#49 Jan 18 2011 at 1:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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800 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
northernsky wrote:
You bring a very good point if your wife is low rank and only play those 2-3 classes, which is representative of a casual player.

But with the gap between your Phys rank and any individual class (from your signature), you probably had every single stat higher, so it maybe it was not a question of stat balancing like you seem to be prentending.

Then again, if I'm a very casual player who only wants to level, say, Mrd and Thm pretty much evenly, I'm greatly penalised.


She's physical level 32 or 33 (I can't remember now) and I'm 35. I have my points even with 54 on every stat (I believe). I'm passable at everything but I excel at nothing.

I'm not sure what she had in the weaving stat (is it mind? I'm not even sure) but all I know is that 4 levels was outdone by stat allocation, even at rank 12 to 16.

This says to me that stats have a substantial effect on how well we perform at our classes but we're not getting the benefit most of the time.


Also, be careful about using one or two crafting botches as proof of not enough stats. We all get that one attempt that seems destined to fail no matter our rank, gear, etc. You very well could have succeeded one time where she failed even with a 4 rank difference, but thats just the random number generator for you and may have nothing to do with stats.
#50 Jan 18 2011 at 1:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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9,526 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:


But even if we're not talking MAXED VIT, we're definitely still not talking about enough stat swing to be able to play as any other class effectively in the end game (and not even while leveling, either).



Really? Cause I play gla just fine with 38 STR... yeah I will need to raise it later but you can easily rank up lower levels with lower stats (or else how would anyone with a low physical level be able to do it?)

No, I don't expect to be the most uber-leet tank in the game with those stats but I help myself by using food and rank appropriate gear, and I do behest and leves and grind on things that die in a few hits like everyone else (although I don't do coblyns as a general rule). I've never had any problems. Maybe other people need high stats to compensate for wearing their R40 gear at R20 or for not using any food or for being generally sucky - but I've had no problems at all.

I agree - you will not be able to be both the best mage and the best tank in endgame. But you will be able to be both the best con and thm. Or the best LNC, MRD, GLA, ARC, PUG. That is a lot of choice right there. I don't have a problem with only being able to optimize for a couple jobs.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#51 Jan 18 2011 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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146 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
northernsky wrote:
You bring a very good point if your wife is low rank and only play those 2-3 classes, which is representative of a casual player.

But with the gap between your Phys rank and any individual class (from your signature), you probably had every single stat higher, so it maybe it was not a question of stat balancing like you seem to be prentending.

Then again, if I'm a very casual player who only wants to level, say, Mrd and Thm pretty much evenly, I'm greatly penalised.


She's physical level 32 or 33 (I can't remember now) and I'm 35. I have my points even with 54 on every stat (I believe). I'm passable at everything but I excel at nothing.

I'm not sure what she had in the weaving stat (is it mind? I'm not even sure) but all I know is that 4 levels was outdone by stat allocation, even at rank 12 to 16.

This says to me that stats have a substantial effect on how well we perform at our classes but we're not getting the benefit most of the time.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 2:14pm by TheRealDestian


Then I'm surprised because I never bothered even reallocating stats when crafting and with appropriate gear and somewhat balanced stats (nothing under 40 at phys level 33), I can craft stuff higher than my rank.
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