Forum Settings
       
1 2 Next »
This Forum is Read Only

Armoury system: less than limited freedom?Follow

#52 Jan 18 2011 at 1:19 PM Rating: Excellent
**
473 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
Well, then I apologize. I wasn't aware you couldn't change classes after entering combat. And you really can't invite anyone after you start damage? That seems almost too detrimental to parties in general, but that's another discussion.

Still, the only area this becomes relevant is in end-game content. Do people really have multiple rank 50 classes to make this an issue? I guess I don't see any reason why you'd need a full re-allocation at a moments notice.


I've had the invite thing be a huge problem during a behest: I couldn't invite a player until no one in the party was attacking anything (which happens very rarely in behests).

I'm sorry if I came across as harsh in any way, but I've experienced a great deal of frustration with this system already.

For example, my fiancee is leveling Glad and Culinarian because she loves being a warrior and she loves cooking. However, in order to do this, she must divert points from Glad stats into Piety if she is to have any degree of success with cooking, meaning that she has to be a mediocre tank and a mediocre chef. She's also leveling weaving (to take the strain off of me), and because my stats are spread evenly, I was able to succeed with a synth at 12 that she couldn't at 16.

If stats are enough to make a bigger difference than FOUR ranks of a class, then they clearly play a large role, even at lower levels.

I think a 5 minute reallocate timer would be fine. There's NO chance of exploiting but players would still have the freedom to level whatever they want and not suffer for wanting to try multiple classes.

Speeral wrote:
Hydra the main thing is with the current state of the game and the cap being only 50, and virtually no end game content available we won't really see the effects of the stat allocations until high tier content becomes available.


NMs already show us the effects. NMs are rare spawns with highly sought-after drops, but they can kill a glad without maxed VIT in one TP attack. I've spoken to several 50 glads who are the tank for their LS who have all said this.

This means that they can never be more than one respec away from a perfect glad build, otherwise the LS with the good tank will be able to take down the NM instead. Thus, they either play glad exclusively and only level other classes for novelty or let their LS down.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 2:07pm by TheRealDestian



I've sat and watched a few NM battles so far and spoken with some of the tanks and across the board they have said the VIT is necessary but DEX and STR were very much a backseat to that end. However, in directly talking about my experiences with nm's all I have done was outside assist healing to take off some strain from the allies conj and thaum. So I do have to admit for the NM's I do require more knowledge and experience. But in discussing using all points for 100% allocation to 3 primary stats as opposed to 1-2 and then balancing the rest across the others, and utilizing that with marks stats will allow a player to be prepped for primary job and still have points to allocate to other interests within the game.

Even looking at my stats it is evident with phys level 31 and highest rank being 25 my stats lean towards magic based combat, and not so much melee/rnaged. I have boosted VIT and MND the most secondary being INT and PTY, STR and DEX falling by the way side meaning my focus will strictly be magical. Now for those who are specializing in DPS that's tricky because DPS do need HP and the ability to land strong hits consistently so balancing STR VIT and DEX is very important, then having the marks stats in there to help bolster lacking crafting stats.

At this point its a tricky system we are all learning and trying to find out what is or would be the optimal stat allocation set up.

Rate up I like what you've had to say.
#53 Jan 18 2011 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
*
146 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:


But even if we're not talking MAXED VIT, we're definitely still not talking about enough stat swing to be able to play as any other class effectively in the end game (and not even while leveling, either).



Really? Cause I play gla just fine with 38 STR... yeah I will need to raise it later but you can easily rank up lower levels with lower stats (or else how would anyone with a low physical level be able to do it?)

No, I don't expect to be the most uber-leet tank in the game with those stats but I help myself by using food and rank appropriate gear, and I do behest and leves and grind on things that die in a few hits like everyone else (although I don't do coblyns as a general rule). I've never had any problems. Maybe other people need high stats to compensate for wearing their R40 gear at R20 or for not using any food or for being generally sucky - but I've had no problems at all.

I agree - you will not be able to be both the best mage and the best tank in endgame. But you will be able to be both the best con and thm. Or the best LNC, MRD, GLA, ARC, PUG. That is a lot of choice right there. I don't have a problem with only being able to optimize for a couple jobs.


Bang on. If perfect stat allocation was mandatory to be effective, you would have to level a bunch of side classes just for the sake of getting your Phys to 50, then starting to play the class you want to.

Obviously I'm exaggerating but my point is that the problem will become apparent only if you have multiple very high level jobs that are very different in terms of important stats.

I don't see so many people like this right now, but it will come with time.

Edit: I assume that the number of points you can reallocate increase with rank?

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 2:36pm by northernsky
#54 Jan 18 2011 at 1:23 PM Rating: Excellent
**
473 posts
northernsky wrote:
Speeral wrote:
northernsky wrote:
Speeral wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
[quote=Speeral][quote=Olorinus the Vile]



That's correct there are some pieces where this will work in regards to gear . . . only downside is the higher repair cost to keep ur gear as effective as possible. However, with the economy being as it is gil isn't an issue right now. It is currently the only money sink in the game.


I'd be willing to see the repair costs increase drastically if it means NPC can repair at 100%. Then I could be sure that I can resell my gear easily without having to level each craft if I have enough money to afford it.

Why not selecting at which % damage you want your gear repaired with the cost increasing exponentially when you get closer to 100%?



That's a good point and something SE should look at. I am bringing WOW into this because for gear damage I like the way gear repair cost is done. If you pay the NPC its repaired to full. IN XIV though I believe the reasoning to having it repaired to 75% at an absurdly high price is to promote seeking repairs via crafters and not being solely self sufficient(the casual approach), hardcore would having every DoH ranked to 50 and having all mats always on hand. Then again from an inventory stand point is that even functional?

I truly believe the repair system is very much meant to encourage social interaction between the community.


I can see that and that's great, but then I need a way to know who can possibly repair my gear without having to beg to random guys.

Repair Wards?



In my experience I always put items in to the seek repair section and just put the price I feel is fair by looking at the rank and item needed to repair something. I have always gotten gear repaired within 30 minutes especially at camps that have good amount of people doing behest or while I afk for a smoke or bio break in town when grabbing leve's.

If I saw someone repair my stuff i way and say thank you and ask if i may add them to my friend list.
#55 Jan 18 2011 at 1:27 PM Rating: Excellent
**
473 posts
MippsCat wrote:
Quote:
I think you are very wrong here. Our max rank is set to 50 for now, no doubt that will go up within a year or so. That i think will be the time we will start seeing more distinction between classes.


I'm sorry but this is seriously wrong. By 50 levels you should have an almost genuine definition of your main job by then. Considering the investment in 1-50 I'd almost go to say the job should be defining itself right around the lv. 28-30. That range should be where your job defining abilities start coming into play and sets you apart from the next job.



That's very true but many say at rank 50 they see very little class differentiation. With that being said alot of the classes seem very similar at this point. Conj and Thaum are different in some ways but the same in others. I just personally feel that once SE starts to implement more class defining abilities and traits then there will be a definitive and explicit role differentiation between the current classes.
#56 Jan 18 2011 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
*
146 posts
Speeral wrote:
northernsky wrote:
Speeral wrote:
northernsky wrote:
Speeral wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
[quote=Speeral][quote=Olorinus the Vile]



That's correct there are some pieces where this will work in regards to gear . . . only downside is the higher repair cost to keep ur gear as effective as possible. However, with the economy being as it is gil isn't an issue right now. It is currently the only money sink in the game.


I'd be willing to see the repair costs increase drastically if it means NPC can repair at 100%. Then I could be sure that I can resell my gear easily without having to level each craft if I have enough money to afford it.

Why not selecting at which % damage you want your gear repaired with the cost increasing exponentially when you get closer to 100%?



That's a good point and something SE should look at. I am bringing WOW into this because for gear damage I like the way gear repair cost is done. If you pay the NPC its repaired to full. IN XIV though I believe the reasoning to having it repaired to 75% at an absurdly high price is to promote seeking repairs via crafters and not being solely self sufficient(the casual approach), hardcore would having every DoH ranked to 50 and having all mats always on hand. Then again from an inventory stand point is that even functional?

I truly believe the repair system is very much meant to encourage social interaction between the community.


I can see that and that's great, but then I need a way to know who can possibly repair my gear without having to beg to random guys.

Repair Wards?



In my experience I always put items in to the seek repair section and just put the price I feel is fair by looking at the rank and item needed to repair something. I have always gotten gear repaired within 30 minutes especially at camps that have good amount of people doing behest or while I afk for a smoke or bio break in town when grabbing leve's.

If I saw someone repair my stuff i way and say thank you and ask if i may add them to my friend list.


Great I'll try that, and I'll try to choose my crafting spots (the only time I'm not running around, I don't play long consecutive hours) so I have more chances to have visibility to people who could potentially repair my stuff.

#57 Jan 18 2011 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
**
473 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
You'd prefer being able to swap to any job to full effectiveness at any time, any where, instantly? You don't see how that could cause balance problems?


Why don't you explain to me how it could cause balance problems.


During, say, a difficult NM fight a DD could disengage, change to a mage to re-buff the party at full effectiveness. Then swap back to DD and re-engage. No need to have a dedicated buffer. Same could be done with enfeebling.

Or your tank goes down, so a full effectiveness DD swaps to Gladiator at full effectiveness and takes right over with no penalties while the original tank recovers. Who needs back up tanks?

I could see asking for a shorter cool-down for re-allocating stats. But wanting a complete and instant re-allocation is asking for exploits.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 12:47pm by Hydragyrum



What about MP differential for longer drawn out battles? if you're a DD you have almost 1/4 the mp. SO if you have to keep switching and waiting for the spell cooldown for setting the spell to hit you will run into a wall. Its not overly efficient going either way because the way the game and battle rules are set up. I would still prefer to be in a party with a healer/nuker and buff/debuff dedicated person.
#58 Jan 18 2011 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
**
473 posts
northernsky wrote:
Speeral wrote:
northernsky wrote:
Speeral wrote:
northernsky wrote:
Speeral wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
[quote=Speeral][quote=Olorinus the Vile]



That's correct there are some pieces where this will work in regards to gear . . . only downside is the higher repair cost to keep ur gear as effective as possible. However, with the economy being as it is gil isn't an issue right now. It is currently the only money sink in the game.


I'd be willing to see the repair costs increase drastically if it means NPC can repair at 100%. Then I could be sure that I can resell my gear easily without having to level each craft if I have enough money to afford it.

Why not selecting at which % damage you want your gear repaired with the cost increasing exponentially when you get closer to 100%?



That's a good point and something SE should look at. I am bringing WOW into this because for gear damage I like the way gear repair cost is done. If you pay the NPC its repaired to full. IN XIV though I believe the reasoning to having it repaired to 75% at an absurdly high price is to promote seeking repairs via crafters and not being solely self sufficient(the casual approach), hardcore would having every DoH ranked to 50 and having all mats always on hand. Then again from an inventory stand point is that even functional?

I truly believe the repair system is very much meant to encourage social interaction between the community.


I can see that and that's great, but then I need a way to know who can possibly repair my gear without having to beg to random guys.

Repair Wards?



In my experience I always put items in to the seek repair section and just put the price I feel is fair by looking at the rank and item needed to repair something. I have always gotten gear repaired within 30 minutes especially at camps that have good amount of people doing behest or while I afk for a smoke or bio break in town when grabbing leve's.

If I saw someone repair my stuff i way and say thank you and ask if i may add them to my friend list.


Great I'll try that, and I'll try to choose my crafting spots (the only time I'm not running around, I don't play long consecutive hours) so I have more chances to have visibility to people who could potentially repair my stuff.



What works best for me has always been in Ul'dah infront of the entrance to where you grab leve's and same for Limsa. Its the second highest traffic area only to the aether crystal. Works everytime I need repairs and its never been more than 15-30minutes to have all my gear repaired.

Also if gil and inventory permits keep 1-2 extra weapons on hand for longer leveling spurts.
#59 Jan 18 2011 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
*
146 posts
Speeral wrote:
[/quote]

What works best for me has always been in Ul'dah infront of the entrance to where you grab leve's and same for Limsa. Its the second highest traffic area only to the aether crystal. Works everytime I need repairs and its never been more than 15-30minutes to have all my gear repaired.

Also if gil and inventory permits keep 1-2 extra weapons on hand for longer leveling spurts.


Thanks I'll try that.
Also something I would like to see is an option to provide the repair material when you are seeking so you only search for the skills. Or is it possible?

I tried to repair other people's stuff several time but I rarely have the proper material in inventory just like that.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 2:49pm by northernsky
#60 Jan 18 2011 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
**
473 posts
northernsky wrote:
Speeral wrote:



What works best for me has always been in Ul'dah infront of the entrance to where you grab leve's and same for Limsa. Its the second highest traffic area only to the aether crystal. Works everytime I need repairs and its never been more than 15-30minutes to have all my gear repaired.

Also if gil and inventory permits keep 1-2 extra weapons on hand for longer leveling spurts.


Thanks I'll try that.
Also something I would like to see is an option to provide the repair material when you are seeking so you only search for the skills. Or is it possible?

I tried to repair other people's stuff several time but I rarely have the proper material in inventory just like that.[/quote]

not possible as of yet, or at least not that I know of. Its been posted about before but I don't think on SE's side thats been made an available feature to us the players.
#61 Jan 18 2011 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
**
435 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:

Really? Cause I play gla just fine with 38 STR... yeah I will need to raise it later but you can easily rank up lower levels with lower stats (or else how would anyone with a low physical level be able to do it?)


Are you able to hold aggro against a difficult mob while a strong DD attacks it?

Yeah, you can level glad to 50 with 10 str in this game. There's nothing really stopping you, but you're doing it horribly ineffectively and as such are going to spend much longer killing every mob you fight and you probably won't hold aggro or tank very well at all.

This is a result of the near-total lack of challenge in the game, considering that the best way to level is by grinding blue mobs for hours on end.

Let me put it this way: if this game had instanced dungeons like Aion, WoW or many other MMOs these days, you probably wouldn't be able to tank them without a better glad stat build.

And again, at 50, you're still locked into one class unless you don't want to have social obligations (and what's the point of that in an MMO?).

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 2:54pm by TheRealDestian
____________________________

#62 Jan 18 2011 at 3:25 PM Rating: Excellent
****
9,526 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:

Really? Cause I play gla just fine with 38 STR... yeah I will need to raise it later but you can easily rank up lower levels with lower stats (or else how would anyone with a low physical level be able to do it?)


Are you able to hold aggro against a difficult mob while a strong DD attacks it?

Yeah, you can level glad to 50 with 10 str in this game. There's nothing really stopping you, but you're doing it horribly ineffectively and as such are going to spend much longer killing every mob you fight and you probably won't hold aggro or tank very well at all.



I actually hold aggro pretty well but I do it by using a lot of spells and cooldowns - things like Water II, raging strike, absorb acc, siphon MP, self-cures and cures on others, provoke and low cost weapon skills like trammel, phalanx and shield bash. (I also have firm conviction - so casting those things increases my def)

Aggro is less about the damage you do and just as much if not more about the skills you use.

Glads do not deal damage very well. Even a good exceptional glad is never going to match the output of even a half-*** lancer or arc... I dunno that has been my experience anyway. The trick to glad is never letting up - using your cooldowns stategically and equipping weapon skills that you can use frequently.

Maybe I am doing it wrong but I seem to do just fine.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#63 Jan 18 2011 at 4:30 PM Rating: Decent
**
435 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I actually hold aggro pretty well but I do it by using a lot of spells and cooldowns - things like Water II, raging strike, absorb acc, siphon MP, self-cures and cures on others, provoke and low cost weapon skills like trammel, phalanx and shield bash. (I also have firm conviction - so casting those things increases my def)

Aggro is less about the damage you do and just as much if not more about the skills you use.

Glads do not deal damage very well. Even a good exceptional glad is never going to match the output of even a half-*** lancer or arc... I dunno that has been my experience anyway. The trick to glad is never letting up - using your cooldowns stategically and equipping weapon skills that you can use frequently.

Maybe I am doing it wrong but I seem to do just fine.


Sounds like you're beating the system by using skills that most won't have access to, especially attempting to level glad and a tradeskill at the same time.

Also, what are you fighting like this? Have you ever tanked a NM?
____________________________

#64 Jan 18 2011 at 4:34 PM Rating: Excellent
****
9,526 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:


Sounds like you're beating the system by using skills that most won't have access to, especially attempting to level glad and a tradeskill at the same time.

Also, what are you fighting like this? Have you ever tanked a NM?


you can see my sig dude, don't be a prig. No, I am not tanking nms. But I am tanking with my stats as is - for mobs my level - and it isn't a problem. [edit: and I also already said above I realize that someone isn't going to be able to be both a endgame tank and an endgame mage with the same stats! So it is a moot point. We're talking about ordinary people ranking up and whether they need to have only mage/mellee stats in order to do their job]

Does a person need 100 strength at R20 glad? The answer is no. No they don't.

So does a person need to do a full restat in order to play a lower ranked job? No, no they don't.

As for skills 'most won't have access to' anyone can have access to them. They just have to rank up the jobs.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 2:37pm by Olorinus
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#65 Jan 18 2011 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
**
800 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
Are you able to hold aggro against a difficult mob while a strong DD attacks it?

Yeah, you can level glad to 50 with 10 str in this game. There's nothing really stopping you, but you're doing it horribly ineffectively and as such are going to spend much longer killing every mob you fight and you probably won't hold aggro or tank very well at all.

This is a result of the near-total lack of challenge in the game, considering that the best way to level is by grinding blue mobs for hours on end.

Let me put it this way: if this game had instanced dungeons like Aion, WoW or many other MMOs these days, you probably wouldn't be able to tank them without a better glad stat build.

And again, at 50, you're still locked into one class unless you don't want to have social obligations (and what's the point of that in an MMO?).


I really can't figure out why you don't like the stat-reallocation system. It seems you're aware that you do NOT need min/max stats for anything except maybe rank 50 NMs. You're aware ranking up is tedious and far from challenging, thus not requiring min/max stats. You say that you're locked into one class at rank 50... and yet to my knowledge no one even HAS 2 rank 50 combat classes yet.

As best I can figure out, you're against the stat system because maybe sometime in the future it might become a problem during a few end-game activities where for some reason you have to play a different rank-caped job than you were planning on playing for said end-game activity.

Adding up italicized words, that's a lot of ifs, maybes, and buts. In any other job change situation a single re-allocation will be plenty to become effective at your role.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 4:53pm by Hydragyrum
#66 Jan 18 2011 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
***
1,636 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
I think you guys are over-exaggerating the loss of effectiveness from a single stat reallocation. Assuming you play a min/maxed job, switching to an opposite style job and one reallocation will get you enough effectiveness to do the vast majority of game content. Perhaps only the rank 50 NMs would require min/maxed attributes.

Just because you feel less effective because your STR isn't as high as it physically could be doesn't mean you can't complete a leve or participate in behest etc. Sure you may do 50 less damage per hit, but what effect does that really have? In no way does one stat reallocation make you "horribly gimped" or reduce you to a "fraction of your effectiveness".


Hydragyrum wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
Are you able to hold aggro against a difficult mob while a strong DD attacks it?

Yeah, you can level glad to 50 with 10 str in this game. There's nothing really stopping you, but you're doing it horribly ineffectively and as such are going to spend much longer killing every mob you fight and you probably won't hold aggro or tank very well at all.

This is a result of the near-total lack of challenge in the game, considering that the best way to level is by grinding blue mobs for hours on end.

Let me put it this way: if this game had instanced dungeons like Aion, WoW or many other MMOs these days, you probably wouldn't be able to tank them without a better glad stat build.

And again, at 50, you're still locked into one class unless you don't want to have social obligations (and what's the point of that in an MMO?).


I really can't figure out why you don't like the stat-reallocation system. It seems you're aware that you do NOT need min/max stats for anything except maybe rank 50 NMs. You're aware ranking up is tedious and far from challenging, thus not requiring min/max stats. You say that you're locked into one class at rank 50... and yet to my knowledge no one even HAS 2 rank 50 combat classes yet.

As best I can figure out, you're against the stat system because maybe sometime in the future it might become a problem during a few end-game activities where for some reason you have to play a different rank-caped job than you were planning on playing for said end-game activity.

Adding up italicized words, that's a lot of ifs, maybes, and buts. In any other job change situation a single re-allocation will be plenty to become effective at your role.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 4:53pm by Hydragyrum


Here is why I don't like this system, and its kinda a double edged sword right now.

If spreading stats evenly is fine, then stats aren't important enough.
If stats are important, then switching them needs to be faster/easier.

Right now I think we're in part 1 of that 2 part problem.
____________________________


#67 Jan 18 2011 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,530 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
I don't think SE ever intended us to be able to swap classes to full effectiveness instantly. The whole point of the armory system is a give and take. If you want to be the best Gladiator, you focus on Gladiator. If you want to be a jack of all trades, prepare to be a master of none. People who are expecting to swap from uber tank to uber mage at the drop of a hat are mistaken, that is now how this was designed.


I'll just go ahead and quote, word for word, Final Fantasy XIV's official site for you, underlining the parts that illustrate exactly what you say goes contrary to its design:

"Leeroy... begin[s] the journey down the path of the gladiator.... Without prior notice, some friends invite Leeroy to partake in an expedition to some nearby ruins. Upon joining their ranks, however, he observes that the other party members are seasoned warriors and accomplished mages all. Dismayed yet not given to despair, Leeroy sheathes his sword and takes up his well-worn staff, assuming the role of thaumaturge, his most advanced class... basking in the confident light of his spellcasting abilities."

____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#68 Jan 18 2011 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
**
435 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Does a person need 100 strength at R20 glad? The answer is no. No they don't.


But if they could, they would because they'd be a great deal more effective and kill monsters faster, but they can't because the system chooses instead to inconvenience them by putting an obnoxious timesink in the way.

Here's what gets me about the system in its current incarnation: it ambitiously sets out to do something great, then clumsily folds back in on itself just before achieving it.

What is preventing a character with both gladiator and conjurer from using them to full effectiveness? Inconvenience. Nothing more. Stats being what they are isn't some innovative new concept in balancing hybridized characters. It's just an inconvenience thrown in the path of the players and we've dubbed it "balancing".

But I have yet to see ANYONE point out exactly how this is unbalanced. In the vast majority of MMOs, alts have been a key role in the enjoyment of the game. I had three max-level alts in WoW before I quit. On a whim, I could log out of one and log onto another (I could even make them all look identical and give them the same name spelled differently if I wanted to simply pretend they were all the same character). Party didn't need a mage? Let me get my priest! 15 minutes later, we were off into the instance, and guess what? It didn't unbalance a thing.

When it comes right down to it, FFXIV refuses to let you play as an optimized build of a class you spent the time leveling to 50 because SE feels that the time it takes to travel out to the location where your alt is needed is not enough punishment. Either that or they feel that nerfed cross-class abilities are reward enough to justify the 5 hour respec time (a sentiment I couldn't disagree with more).

It all comes down to SE throwing a 5 hour timesink on respecing because they feel the benefit of cross-class skills is enough to justify having the timesink, and I sincerely DON'T think it is. For starters, you leveled those other classes as well, meaning you already put the time and effort into them. Second, nine times out of ten, you're going to equip your action bar with the abilities native to your chosen class because they work at full effectiveness. Third, the punishment for only leveling one character instead of leveling alts will forever be being pigeonholed into that class if you expect to be useful to your linkshell. Leveling alts allows you to choose what you want to do at any time, all for the low price of an additional $3 per month.

So yes, the I think the system needs revamping. I don't think players need to be punished for wanting to be effective at other classes and I don't think FFXIV will ever garner a large enough playerbase to sustain itself with the system in its current state.

MMO players aren't going to leave their current MMOs to switch to an MMO with less freedom and more punishing game mechanics, period.
____________________________

#69 Jan 18 2011 at 5:13 PM Rating: Decent
**
800 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
I don't think SE ever intended us to be able to swap classes to full effectiveness instantly. The whole point of the armory system is a give and take. If you want to be the best Gladiator, you focus on Gladiator. If you want to be a jack of all trades, prepare to be a master of none. People who are expecting to swap from uber tank to uber mage at the drop of a hat are mistaken, that is now how this was designed.


I'll just go ahead and quote, word for word, Final Fantasy XIV's official site for you, underlining the parts that illustrate exactly what you say goes contrary to its design:

"Leeroy... begin[s] the journey down the path of the gladiator.... Without prior notice, some friends invite Leeroy to partake in an expedition to some nearby ruins. Upon joining their ranks, however, he observes that the other party members are seasoned warriors and accomplished mages all. Dismayed yet not given to despair, Leeroy sheathes his sword and takes up his well-worn staff, assuming the role of thaumaturge, his most advanced class... basking in the confident light of his spellcasting abilities."



You're really going to take a bit of flavor text and try to use it to explain detailed game mechanics? Ok... where does it say Leeroy's Gladiator had maxed VIT? What's Leeroy's physical level? What are his Glad/Tham ranks? etc. etc. etc.

Flavor text is flavor text. Don't try to use it as proof of in-game mechanics.

And actually, reading that again, to me it says Leeroy is a career Thaumaturge who was bored and decided to pick up a sword by himself somewhere to kill some marmots when his LS called him to come help with his thaumaturgy. Notice how there's no mention of stats at all? Maybe his gladiator is hopelessly gimped and all the other gladiators laugh at him as he walks by with a big head and a big heart but tiny little biceps. Isn't that Leeroy's choice gosh darnit?!

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 5:14pm by Hydragyrum
#70 Jan 18 2011 at 5:14 PM Rating: Decent
**
435 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
"Leeroy... begin[s] the journey down the path of the gladiator.... Without prior notice, some friends invite Leeroy to partake in an expedition to some nearby ruins. Upon joining their ranks, however, he observes that the other party members are seasoned warriors and accomplished mages all. Dismayed yet not given to despair, Leeroy sheathes his sword and takes up his well-worn staff, assuming the role of thaumaturge, his most advanced class... basking in the confident light of his spellcasting abilities."


And how "competent" are spellcasting abilities when you have jack-squat for MP, spell power and accuracy because you just switched away from Gladiator?

That's right: they aren't.

Unless Leroy was a gimped, crappy gladiator to start with...

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 6:15pm by TheRealDestian
____________________________

#71 Jan 18 2011 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
**
435 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
You're really going to take a bit of flavor text and try to use it to explain detailed game mechanics? Ok... where does it say Leeroy's Gladiator had maxed VIT? What's Leeroy's physical level? What are his Glad/Tham ranks? etc. etc. etc.

Flavor text is flavor text. Don't try to use it as proof of in-game mechanics.

And actually, reading that again, to me it says Leeroy is a career Thaumaturge who was bored and decided to pick up a sword by himself somewhere to kill some marmots when his LS called him to come help with his thaumaturgy. Notice how there's no mention of stats at all? Maybe his gladiator is hopelessly gimped and all the other gladiators laugh at him as he walks by with a big head and a big heart but tiny little biceps. Isn't that Leeroy's choice gosh darnit?!


That's not flavor text. It's example text of how the armory system is supposed to work, and notice they didn't mention that Leeroy was a garbage gladiator who couldn't tank a blasted thing and couldn't take a single TP attack without dying? Unless they just decided to omit that part, I'm going to guess that this is how the armory system is supposed to work and SE didn't really intend to force players to be crap at all but one class.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 6:19pm by TheRealDestian
____________________________

#72 Jan 18 2011 at 5:23 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,636 posts
Something I've noticed, I see a lot of people defending the system saying that its not that bad. But can anyone explain why they think its better this way?
____________________________


#73 Jan 18 2011 at 5:24 PM Rating: Excellent
*
146 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Does a person need 100 strength at R20 glad? The answer is no. No they don't.


But if they could, they would because they'd be a great deal more effective and kill monsters faster, but they can't because the system chooses instead to inconvenience them by putting an obnoxious timesink in the way.

Here's what gets me about the system in its current incarnation: it ambitiously sets out to do something great, then clumsily folds back in on itself just before achieving it.

What is preventing a character with both gladiator and conjurer from using them to full effectiveness? Inconvenience. Nothing more. Stats being what they are isn't some innovative new concept in balancing hybridized characters. It's just an inconvenience thrown in the path of the players and we've dubbed it "balancing".

But I have yet to see ANYONE point out exactly how this is unbalanced. In the vast majority of MMOs, alts have been a key role in the enjoyment of the game. I had three max-level alts in WoW before I quit. On a whim, I could log out of one and log onto another (I could even make them all look identical and give them the same name spelled differently if I wanted to simply pretend they were all the same character). Party didn't need a mage? Let me get my priest! 15 minutes later, we were off into the instance, and guess what? It didn't unbalance a thing.

When it comes right down to it, FFXIV refuses to let you play as an optimized build of a class you spent the time leveling to 50 because SE feels that the time it takes to travel out to the location where your alt is needed is not enough punishment. Either that or they feel that nerfed cross-class abilities are reward enough to justify the 5 hour respec time (a sentiment I couldn't disagree with more).

It all comes down to SE throwing a 5 hour timesink on respecing because they feel the benefit of cross-class skills is enough to justify having the timesink, and I sincerely DON'T think it is. For starters, you leveled those other classes as well, meaning you already put the time and effort into them. Second, nine times out of ten, you're going to equip your action bar with the abilities native to your chosen class because they work at full effectiveness. Third, the punishment for only leveling one character instead of leveling alts will forever be being pigeonholed into that class if you expect to be useful to your linkshell. Leveling alts allows you to choose what you want to do at any time, all for the low price of an additional $3 per month.

So yes, the I think the system needs revamping. I don't think players need to be punished for wanting to be effective at other classes and I don't think FFXIV will ever garner a large enough playerbase to sustain itself with the system in its current state.

MMO players aren't going to leave their current MMOs to switch to an MMO with less freedom and more punishing game mechanics, period.


Pretty long text to say that cool down for stats reallocation should be shorter. I think everyone in this thread agrees with this.

But if you read most of the posts, do you agree that it's a non-issue for most of the players as we speak?

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 6:25pm by northernsky
#74 Jan 18 2011 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
*
146 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
Something I've noticed, I see a lot of people defending the system saying that its not that bad. But can anyone explain why they think its better this way?


Better than what?
#75 Jan 18 2011 at 5:40 PM Rating: Good
35 posts
There have been many studies done with people based on giving them everything they need and want. The result being that it though it may be fun for awhile, it ends up lacking any zest for what may come. People become empty and lack purpose. Every decision seems to be right because no matter what you do, you get what you want. After some time, people stop making decision because what is the point really?

It is the opportunity cost of decision that we crave, whether we know it or not. By opportunity cost, I relate back to one of the most basic principles of any economic system. We have limited resources in everything we do in life. For example, many of us don't have much money. We must decide not only what we want to do with our money, but what we want to live without. This might sound sad but it is the simple truth.

That being said, I would definitely prefer a system where you MUST give up something to pursue another. Or pursue everything but not be great at anything. If we all were able to get the same uber max level characters, awesome at everything at any time. Then don't you realize that nothing will be awesome at all?
____________________________
***Have you ever wondered which hurts the most: saying something and wishing you had not, or saying nothing, and wishing you had?***
#76 Jan 18 2011 at 5:44 PM Rating: Decent
**
800 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
You're really going to take a bit of flavor text and try to use it to explain detailed game mechanics? Ok... where does it say Leeroy's Gladiator had maxed VIT? What's Leeroy's physical level? What are his Glad/Tham ranks? etc. etc. etc.

Flavor text is flavor text. Don't try to use it as proof of in-game mechanics.

And actually, reading that again, to me it says Leeroy is a career Thaumaturge who was bored and decided to pick up a sword by himself somewhere to kill some marmots when his LS called him to come help with his thaumaturgy. Notice how there's no mention of stats at all? Maybe his gladiator is hopelessly gimped and all the other gladiators laugh at him as he walks by with a big head and a big heart but tiny little biceps. Isn't that Leeroy's choice gosh darnit?!


That's not flavor text. It's example text of how the armory system is supposed to work, and notice they didn't mention that Leeroy was a garbage gladiator who couldn't take a blasted thing and couldn't take a single TP attack without dying? Unless they just decided to omit that part, I'm going to guess that this is how the armory system is supposed to work and SE didn't really intend to force players to be crap at all but one class.


You don't really understand how the physical level system works, do you? Let's assume Leeroy is a decently leveled Thaumaturge since he has a well worn staff and is pretty confident in his spellcasting abilities. Lets put him at rank 30 THM. Let's also assume he's level 40 because he's dabbled in some crafting and leveled CON for some spells as well (What self-respecting Thaumaturge wouldn't want Cure 2?). He has 446 stat points total (Source) At rank 30, the stat cap is 106 (Source) He assigns them as such:

STR: 42
DEX: 42
VIT: 43
MND: 106
INT: 106
PIE: 106

One day he decides to pick up a sword and try out Gladiator. Without ever re-allocating his stats, his gladiator will have capped stats until Rank 7. At reassign, you get 20% of your spent stats back (citation needed). So that's about 80 stat points for Leroy. He can reassign his Gladiator to:

STR: 68
DEX: 68
VIT: 70
MND: 80
INT: 80
PIE: 80

He's now a capped Gladiator until rank 17, and that's only ONE reassign! He can swap back to his capped THM at any moment. That's ignoring any physical levels he'd gain while ranking up gladiator to 17.

So as I said earlier, the stat reallocation system does not really penalize you unless you have multiple high rank classes and want to swap to capped stats on the fly (or unless you're over-capping your stats in the first place of course). Ranking up low rank jobs will not suffer from stat reallocation.
#77 Jan 18 2011 at 5:45 PM Rating: Excellent
*
146 posts
SirEdmundBurke wrote:
There have been many studies done with people based on giving them everything they need and want. The result being that it though it may be fun for awhile, it ends up lacking any zest for what may come. People become empty and lack purpose. Every decision seems to be right because no matter what you do, you get what you want. After some time, people stop making decision because what is the point really?

It is the opportunity cost of decision that we crave, whether we know it or not. By opportunity cost, I relate back to one of the most basic principles of any economic system. We have limited resources in everything we do in life. For example, many of us don't have much money. We must decide not only what we want to do with our money, but what we want to live without. This might sound sad but it is the simple truth.

That being said, I would definitely prefer a system where you MUST give up something to pursue another. Or pursue everything but not be great at anything. If we all were able to get the same uber max level characters, awesome at everything at any time. Then don't you realize that nothing will be awesome at all?


We definitely need more challenges in this game.

Hopefully it will be under the form of content rather than rules, but I agree that some rules have to be stated at the beginning.
#78 Jan 18 2011 at 6:35 PM Rating: Excellent
*
53 posts
What I'm struggling to understand, is how SE strayed so far from FFXI's job system. To me, and to many others, the job system was the shining star of the game. The classes were unique and you could easily go from a powerful warrior to a powerful white mage. The more time you put into a job, the more rewarding it got.

Outside of the fact you can switch job on the fly, this new system takes everything that I thought was great about it and throws it out the window.

It sounds great on paper. I love the idea of attributing stats as I see fit. Or to be able to pick abilities from other classes. But it just doesn't work with all the limitations they've put into place.

Why not make the physical level raise HP/MP and stats in a pre-determined manner, and give attribute points that you can allocate that are specific to each job you play. Playing Gladiator? Use your points to raise your VIT and STR if you want to be a pure tank with DD abilities. Or split them between VIT and MND and build yourself a viable paladin. Tired of playing melee? Switch to Conjurer and use the points you earn leveling it to enhance its magical abilities. Want a WHM or a BLM or something closer to a RDM? Spend your points accordingly. They could keep the reallocation of the points as a way of completely changing your class. Tired of being a Black Mage type Conjurer or your group desperately needs a Healer? Reallocate points accordingly. This could be on a 24h timer to prevent abuse. At least this way the work we put into a class would be fully rewarded. We wouldn't be stuck with 1 main job and a bunch of gimp side ones.

And gimping abilities from other classes so hard is completely ridiculous given what they were aiming for. Some people thought being limited to one subjob in FFXI made customization hard. But I could sub Samurai, Ninja, Dragoon or Thief on my Warrior and do a good job, depending on the situation. Right now it feels like everyone is essentially playing as /THM. Everyone wants Siphon MP and Sacrifice 2 and most of the other abilities are currently pointless outside of their native class. How is that a step forward from the old job system of XI?

They could make the abilities full-powered, but limit people to how many they can take from other classes. I hate playing Conjurer and not even being able to use all of my own abilities! That's just wrong, I should always have access to all my native spells! Put a restriction on abilities I get from other classes, but for the love of God let me use all my elemental spells so I can exploit the weaknesses of my enemies correctly.

Anyway that's my 2 cents. The armory system is hampered by so many lousy design decisions its not even fun to play right now.

____________________________
FFXI - Bruknar - WAR75 MNK75 BLM75 NIN75 SAM75 WHM75 DRK75 BRD75 RNG75
Lakshmi Server.
FFXIV - Bruknar Dinendal - Istory.
#79 Jan 18 2011 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
**
265 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
You're really going to take a bit of flavor text and try to use it to explain detailed game mechanics? Ok... where does it say Leeroy's Gladiator had maxed VIT? What's Leeroy's physical level? What are his Glad/Tham ranks? etc. etc. etc.

Flavor text is flavor text. Don't try to use it as proof of in-game mechanics.

And actually, reading that again, to me it says Leeroy is a career Thaumaturge who was bored and decided to pick up a sword by himself somewhere to kill some marmots when his LS called him to come help with his thaumaturgy. Notice how there's no mention of stats at all? Maybe his gladiator is hopelessly gimped and all the other gladiators laugh at him as he walks by with a big head and a big heart but tiny little biceps. Isn't that Leeroy's choice gosh darnit?!


That's not flavor text. It's example text of how the armory system is supposed to work, and notice they didn't mention that Leeroy was a garbage gladiator who couldn't take a blasted thing and couldn't take a single TP attack without dying? Unless they just decided to omit that part, I'm going to guess that this is how the armory system is supposed to work and SE didn't really intend to force players to be crap at all but one class.


You don't really understand how the physical level system works, do you? Let's assume Leeroy is a decently leveled Thaumaturge since he has a well worn staff and is pretty confident in his spellcasting abilities. Lets put him at rank 30 THM. Let's also assume he's level 40 because he's dabbled in some crafting and leveled CON for some spells as well (What self-respecting Thaumaturge wouldn't want Cure 2?). He has 446 stat points total (Source) At rank 30, the stat cap is 106 (Source) He assigns them as such:

STR: 42
DEX: 42
VIT: 43
MND: 106
INT: 106
PIE: 106

One day he decides to pick up a sword and try out Gladiator. Without ever re-allocating his stats, his gladiator will have capped stats until Rank 7. At reassign, you get 20% of your spent stats back (citation needed). So that's about 80 stat points for Leroy. He can reassign his Gladiator to:

STR: 68
DEX: 68
VIT: 70
MND: 80
INT: 80
PIE: 80

He's now a capped Gladiator until rank 17, and that's only ONE reassign! He can swap back to his capped THM at any moment. That's ignoring any physical levels he'd gain while ranking up gladiator to 17.

So as I said earlier, the stat reallocation system does not really penalize you unless you have multiple high rank classes and want to swap to capped stats on the fly (or unless you're over-capping your stats in the first place of course). Ranking up low rank jobs will not suffer from stat reallocation.


This game is about playing multi classes...so just like FFXI people will have multiple cappped jobs down the line. WHen that happens if they go from leveling and they have an event to do, then they have to wait hours to play the tank or w/e? seems kind of backwards. It comes down to the fact that they couldnt make up their **** minds about the game...is it fully custom or rolls that can be slightly altered? Its set up to kind of make us be in certain rolls as is so why use something that forces you to end up being one way?

They had custom stats in games like EQ, but it worked just fine because you were on 1 class all the time. This game needs to change that system, its not meant to work for a game that in more then 1 way wants you to play different classes. Its just poorly thought out like many things in this game.
#80 Jan 18 2011 at 8:10 PM Rating: Good
***
1,636 posts
northernsky wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
Something I've noticed, I see a lot of people defending the system saying that its not that bad. But can anyone explain why they think its better this way?


Better than what?



Sorry, stat point allocation being the way it is, vs a system where stats are tied to class in some way.

I forgot this thread was about something else at first.
____________________________


#81 Jan 18 2011 at 8:25 PM Rating: Good
**
800 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
Sorry, stat point allocation being the way it is, vs a system where stats are tied to class in some way.

I forgot this thread was about something else at first.


The OP started the discussion about the armory system, stat allocation, and swapping on the fly... For once a ZAM thread hasn't derailed yet. We should be proud.
#82 Jan 18 2011 at 8:59 PM Rating: Good
**
435 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
You don't really understand how the physical level system works, do you?


I understand perfectly how it works and that's how I reached the conclusion that it's terrible.

In fact, I have a MUCH better idea...

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=129540543951001909&page=1

1. Remove stat point allocation. It's a huge waste of time and gives NOTHING to the player but the power to determine what they will be bad at.

2. Instead, give us baseline stats for each class that improve with every rank of that class.

3. For every CROSS-CLASS ability we equip to our action bar (aka every action that doesn't belong to the class we're currently playing), we take a hit to those otherwise perfect stats.

For example, if you're a gladiator and you assign cure to your action bar. Your STR would take a hit as a result because you've diversified into another class. Maybe equipping cure would boost your MND stat or something, but the real key here is that players trade power for versatility, like a true hybrid should.

No more reallocating, no more testing to see what stats actually do, no more being horrendously gimped for simply trying to level multiple classes. You ONLY get penalized for using cross-class abilities. Keeping your class "pure" and only using skills from that class will ensure that you are the best class you can be and "respecing" to a hybrid class is as simple and easy as assigning some cross-class abilities to your action bar.
____________________________

#83 Jan 18 2011 at 9:13 PM Rating: Good
***
3,530 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:

He's now a capped Gladiator until rank 17, and that's only ONE reassign! He can swap back to his capped THM at any moment.


You mean that he can switch back to his now lackluster Thaumaturge at any moment, right? Because, if he reallocated his stats, he'll still have to wait for the next reassign to become available -- which would take only 30 minutes for one, yes, but it's certainly not "at any moment" -- and the problem is greatly exacerbated if he likes to level two somewhat-similar-rank classes (as many sigs seem to testify people do, and which he may very well want to do for any gear that might favour both, or any that fits all classes).

The point is simple: the armory system is about changing classes simply by changing gear but reallocation prevents a player from changing from a peak-efficiency "X" to a peak-efficiency "Y."

I think that most people would rather warp back to a mog house and be able to go from their "exceptionally-leveled and well-geared mage" to their "exceptionally-leveled and well-geared melee" than figure out ways to half-circumvent the restrictions placed on them -- like by keeping your classes' ranks far apart, or by limiting yourself to classes of only one type -- by the armory system.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#84 Jan 18 2011 at 9:13 PM Rating: Default
**
800 posts
Saying that we're "horrendously gimped for leveling multiple classes" proves to me that you really don't know what you're talking about. Show me a case where that is true. I mean real data: parsers, statistical data, and so on. Because so far all player determined data suggests that stats aren't that hard to cap. Until you can prove that swapping classes "horrendously gimps" you, you're just blowing hot air. I tried showing you with real numbers that players have determined, but you apparently ignored it.

I'm not saying the current system is perfect (it's not). I'm not saying that min/max stats aren't useful (apparently they are for rank 50 NMs). What I'm saying is that you guys are drastically over exaggerating the importance of stats and thus the re-assignment of stats. Again, the current system is not perfect. But neither is it as bad as you're making it seem.
#85Hydragyrum, Posted: Jan 18 2011 at 9:19 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) First of all, from experience it took a lot more than 30 minutes for someone to warp back to a mog house, change jobs, swap gear, and travel back to our location. In that case, FFXIV wins.
#86 Jan 18 2011 at 9:50 PM Rating: Good
**
435 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
Again, the current system is not perfect. But neither is it as bad as you're making it seem.


It doesn't seem as bad because, short of NMs, there is currently no challenge in the game. Of COURSE stats don't make that much of a difference when steamrolling blue mobs is the tried and true fastest way to level, but the fact that stats DO matter at 50 suggests that, once they actually add some challenge to this game, stats WILL be a greater issue.

All of that aside, the system is still awful. Facing players with 6 ambiguous stats, making the act of reassigning the stats equating clicking a button 50 times and being extra careful that you don't accidentally overshoot and need to do the ENTIRE thing over?

Like I said, toss it out and start over. Only penalize players in stats when they use cross-class abilities, giving them a real, hardline choice between power vs. versatility, which is what a hybrid class is supposed to sacrifice anyway.
____________________________

#87 Jan 18 2011 at 10:45 PM Rating: Good
**
435 posts
Bruknarr wrote:
What I'm struggling to understand, is how SE strayed so far from FFXI's job system. To me, and to many others, the job system was the shining star of the game. The classes were unique and you could easily go from a powerful warrior to a powerful white mage. The more time you put into a job, the more rewarding it got.

Outside of the fact you can switch job on the fly, this new system takes everything that I thought was great about it and throws it out the window.

It sounds great on paper. I love the idea of attributing stats as I see fit. Or to be able to pick abilities from other classes. But it just doesn't work with all the limitations they've put into place.

Why not make the physical level raise HP/MP and stats in a pre-determined manner, and give attribute points that you can allocate that are specific to each job you play. Playing Gladiator? Use your points to raise your VIT and STR if you want to be a pure tank with DD abilities. Or split them between VIT and MND and build yourself a viable paladin. Tired of playing melee? Switch to Conjurer and use the points you earn leveling it to enhance its magical abilities. Want a WHM or a BLM or something closer to a RDM? Spend your points accordingly. They could keep the reallocation of the points as a way of completely changing your class. Tired of being a Black Mage type Conjurer or your group desperately needs a Healer? Reallocate points accordingly. This could be on a 24h timer to prevent abuse. At least this way the work we put into a class would be fully rewarded. We wouldn't be stuck with 1 main job and a bunch of gimp side ones.

And gimping abilities from other classes so hard is completely ridiculous given what they were aiming for. Some people thought being limited to one subjob in FFXI made customization hard. But I could sub Samurai, Ninja, Dragoon or Thief on my Warrior and do a good job, depending on the situation. Right now it feels like everyone is essentially playing as /THM. Everyone wants Siphon MP and Sacrifice 2 and most of the other abilities are currently pointless outside of their native class. How is that a step forward from the old job system of XI?

They could make the abilities full-powered, but limit people to how many they can take from other classes. I hate playing Conjurer and not even being able to use all of my own abilities! That's just wrong, I should always have access to all my native spells! Put a restriction on abilities I get from other classes, but for the love of God let me use all my elemental spells so I can exploit the weaknesses of my enemies correctly.

Anyway that's my 2 cents. The armory system is hampered by so many lousy design decisions its not even fun to play right now.



Well-put and exactly the issue I see with the game.

It sounds great on paper but it just falls apart in practice. Again, the ONLY reason this isn't more blatantly obvious is due to the fact that the game lacks any real challenge prior to 50 right now.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 11:47pm by TheRealDestian
____________________________

#88 Jan 18 2011 at 11:15 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,636 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:

Is the problem the act of re-allocation itself? Yeah, I'd be happy with a stat "memory", that is, a way to save a stat re-allocation so swapping classes automatically swapped stats. But 100% stat swap isn't necesary and I stand by my opinion that I think such would disrupt game balance. Remember that warping back to town to change jobs in FFXI rarely took less than 30 minutes.


I don't see how it could possibly disrupt game balance? What did you have in mind?

Personally, I see it as a huge plus to the game, especially in the state its in right now. Populations are low, and certain classes could be scarce. For players attempting harder content (NMs, Faction leves, anything that may be added in the futute), this current system would allow for players to adjust their classes and roles (for various reasons, maybe a fight needs one more DD, maybe a healer has to go), without losing any quality, and without having to find other players which could take time. Again, its only really an issue for gameplay that is tough, and not farmable.

Obviously, when you're referring to leveling a class, sure its no big deal if you're THM's got some STR points so you're lancers closer to its own cap, but there will be a time when this is important. It goes back to the age old 5 specialized players > 5 jack of all trades for most game content. I'm not saying jack of all trades don't get by, but I am saying that a group of specialized people will more often than not outperform.
____________________________


#89 Jan 19 2011 at 1:39 AM Rating: Good
*
176 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
You don't really understand how the physical level system works, do you? Let's assume Leeroy is a decently leveled Thaumaturge since he has a well worn staff and is pretty confident in his spellcasting abilities. Lets put him at rank 30 THM. Let's also assume he's level 40 because he's dabbled in some crafting and leveled CON for some spells as well (What self-respecting Thaumaturge wouldn't want Cure 2?). He has 446 stat points total (Source) At rank 30, the stat cap is 106 (Source) He assigns them as such:

STR: 42
DEX: 42
VIT: 43
MND: 106
INT: 106
PIE: 106

One day he decides to pick up a sword and try out Gladiator. Without ever re-allocating his stats, his gladiator will have capped stats until Rank 7. At reassign, you get 20% of your spent stats back (citation needed). So that's about 80 stat points for Leroy. He can reassign his Gladiator to:

STR: 68
DEX: 68
VIT: 70
MND: 80
INT: 80
PIE: 80

He's now a capped Gladiator until rank 17, and that's only ONE reassign! He can swap back to his capped THM at any moment. That's ignoring any physical levels he'd gain while ranking up gladiator to 17.

So as I said earlier, the stat reallocation system does not really penalize you unless you have multiple high rank classes and want to swap to capped stats on the fly (or unless you're over-capping your stats in the first place of course). Ranking up low rank jobs will not suffer from stat reallocation.


You're overlooking some very important facts.

It costs 1 attribute point to change a stat by a value of 1 if the stat is 40 or less.

It costs 2 attribute points to change a stat by a value of 1 if the stat is 80 or less.

It costs 3 attribute points to change a stat by a value of 1 if the stat is 128 or less.

It costs 4 attribute points to change a stat by a value of 1 if the stat is greater than 128.

At Physical Level 50, one reassign will remove 28 attribute points from each stat.

Now let's say I have an r50 class and my VIT is capped at 174. I want to switch to my r20 class and reassign VIT to 76 - which is the cap for that rank.

As soon as I switch from my r50 to my r20 I have:

(2*4) + (3*48) + (4*46) = 336 attribute points unused on VIT

336/28 = 12 reassigns needed to move VIT from 174 to 76.

Even on a 5 min reallocation timer it would still take an hour to reassign stats.

Quote:
I think that most people would rather warp back to a mog house and be able to go from their "exceptionally-leveled and well-geared mage" to their "exceptionally-leveled and well-geared melee" than figure out ways to half-circumvent the restrictions placed on them -- like by keeping your classes' ranks far apart, or by limiting yourself to classes of only one type -- by the armory system.


This is exactly how I feel about the current system.

Imagine that 6 months down the road you have both Gladiator and Conjurer leveled to rank 50. One day, you tank an NM on Gladiator and log off in town. A week later, you log on and your LS tells you that they need a CON.

One reassign. That's all you get before the NM depops. Compared to FFXI, this system is a joke.

Here's a simple solution: Allow full stat reallocation while in town.

Although I fail to see why full stat reallocation out in the field would affect game balance due to current restrictions, this surely would not. It would also allow SE to get rid of those stupid "You cannot change jobs, teleport, add party members, or log off while engaged" messages.

Maybe they'll even throw in a mog house and AH while they're at it.
____________________________
FFXI - Kronoh, Turtle, Sylph
FFXIV - Tsubaki Yayoi, Oogle, Rabanastre
#90 Jan 19 2011 at 8:28 AM Rating: Excellent
*
146 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
You don't really understand how the physical level system works, do you?


I understand perfectly how it works and that's how I reached the conclusion that it's terrible.

In fact, I have a MUCH better idea...

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=129540543951001909&page=1

1. Remove stat point allocation. It's a huge waste of time and gives NOTHING to the player but the power to determine what they will be bad at.

2. Instead, give us baseline stats for each class that improve with every rank of that class.

3. For every CROSS-CLASS ability we equip to our action bar (aka every action that doesn't belong to the class we're currently playing), we take a hit to those otherwise perfect stats.

For example, if you're a gladiator and you assign cure to your action bar. Your STR would take a hit as a result because you've diversified into another class. Maybe equipping cure would boost your MND stat or something, but the real key here is that players trade power for versatility, like a true hybrid should.

No more reallocating, no more testing to see what stats actually do, no more being horrendously gimped for simply trying to level multiple classes. You ONLY get penalized for using cross-class abilities. Keeping your class "pure" and only using skills from that class will ensure that you are the best class you can be and "respecing" to a hybrid class is as simple and easy as assigning some cross-class abilities to your action bar.


Now this is a constructive idea. In XI you had bonus stats when equipping blue magics. Make it the opposite, each ability could have its own penalty when equipped cross-class.

Sacrifice II on your LNC rank 15? STR -10, INT -5, optimal rank 20 (or it could be actually higher than the ability level since it's cross class), meaning the penalty will be even greater before your lancer reaches 20.

Edited, Jan 19th 2011 12:04pm by northernsky
#91 Jan 19 2011 at 10:43 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
225 posts
I was just curious if everyone knows you can rollback your stats? More than once. Has any r 50 player just roll their stats back, while they were on a lower rank class, more than once? As a test I rolled back my stats twice and not allocating any more points until I reach rank 50. I have a hunch, this is how you regain full allotment of stat points. Just roll'em back while you're on a lower ranked class. It should save what you've rolled back.

It seems to save to the point where you last allotted. So say you have a rank 50 conj, and a rank 10 thm, you decide to rank up thm, while you're on the lower ranked class you roll back your stats, lets say twice, then you have to get back on conj. You put in the stats you need for conj, then when done with conj you go back to thm, and roll back, it should save everything you rolled back prior, then continue on with say 2 more roll backs. The switch back to conj and you have more points, if my hunch is right it should be saving to the very last point you allotted your points from.

So if you continue to roll back each time you are on a lower ranked class, your main class will gain more stat points.









Edited, Jan 19th 2011 12:12pm by Spyrit178
____________________________


1 2 Next »
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 17 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (17)