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Continued Nerfs for Game in Free Fall?Follow

#1 Jan 19 2011 at 11:28 AM Rating: Decent
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So I just read about the Fishing nerf. Does it really make a lot of business sense for SE to further alienate its in-freefall playerbase when they've made the game free to play hoping against hope that players will stay?

I'm not getting the logic here.

Edited, Jan 19th 2011 12:31pm by hexaemeron
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#2 Jan 19 2011 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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Was the fact that it was a nerf confirmed? There were some who hoped they had improved the SP for those leves. I'm clueless as to what was really changed, anyone know for sure?
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#3 Jan 19 2011 at 11:41 AM Rating: Default
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I guess it's a matter of whether one thinks it's better for developers to cater to players or themselves. The FFXIV team seems to be trying to do both, which is a good thing -- in fact it is the best policy, as many have pointed out.

This "fishing nerf" that, since you have only read about it, should probably first be tested personally, some have complained about may have a reason behind it. If they wish to make leveling fishing slower, maybe they later mean to make fishing worth more in itself -- ten-thousand moat carp-style quests, rarer items for high-ranks, or whatnot. The only reason they would adjust the SP gains on fishing is because they think that fishers should not level as quickly; we'll figure out why in the future (hopefully).

Maybe they've finally decided to stop treating gatherers and crafters like real (i.e., DoW/DoM) classes (since they clearly are not classes, they being almost no different from anyone else in their disciple school and contributing absolutely nothing to battle/leves/parties/farming). If this is the case, then maybe the game can start shaping up and classes can start playing differently from one another.

Personally, I don't mind if fishing is seen as the hardest, slowest climb to Rank 50 in the game; that makes less fishers in the world, that almost makes it a challenge; that actually makes me want to level it more.

Edited, Jan 19th 2011 12:44pm by KaneKitty
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#4 Jan 19 2011 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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Fishing is horrendously slow and by far and away the most time consuming grind to 50 that currently exists in the game. But who really cares if it's a buff or a nerf: of all the glaring issues, complete and utter failures, and shortcomings in the game, this is at the top of SE's priority list? It's infuriating...

Just imagine the SE meeting where everyone is talking about grand, sweeping, and revolutionary changes to the fundamental game play systems of FFXIV in an effort to offset catastrophic financial losses at SE and some a$$hole stands-up at said meeting and says "we really need to fix fishing SP".
#5 Jan 19 2011 at 11:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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In SE-ese, "Adjusted" nearly always means nerfed. If it was made better, they would have said "Increased" or "Improved" or something similar.

I won't say ALWAYS because I'm sure there has to be an exception, but nearly every XI patch that "adjusted" something was considered a nerf by most.
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#6 Jan 19 2011 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
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A) Ouch on the nerf.
B) This is no surprise to players of ffxi. Fishing is supposed to be slow and adjusted always means reduced
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#7 Jan 19 2011 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
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if there is an imbalance there is a need for a fix...

as for the need for this thread? no. there is a thread on the fishing "nerf" or changes made already
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#8 Jan 19 2011 at 12:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Project and Shell were "enhanced" and that meant severely nerfed. Just saying.
(I checked it definitely doesn't say "adjusted")
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#9 Jan 19 2011 at 12:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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I am currently playing a rom of Lunar for sega CD. The voice acting is way better than XIV. Wow.

I'm P.O.ed about the nerf - not necessarily just about the SP (cause apparently with GA it is about the same SP as fishing for the whole half hour, maybe just a bit less IF you catch every fish - which I don't on the R30s) - but because they effectively took away my half hour of content and replaced it with 5 minutes of content.

I know it seems crazy that I might actually want to play the game for more than 5 minutes at a time occasionally...

I guess for me the fact that they took something away from me that I enjoyed - something that made me feel like I was progressing - and replaced it with a quest where I hook 6 fish and don't feel like I am progressing at all. So yeah, now I will spend more time running to the leve than doing it. I guess this is just par for the course - but I am angry.

I would rather have 1/2 hour of less boosted SP than 5 minutes of more boosted SP. Crazy, I know - but I want to actually play the game.

I'm trying to spare my LS mates and playing offline games until I am less furious - but if SE doesn't say something soon (and it better not be "we're adding an auction house!") I am going to begin to commence to start looking at other options for an MMO. I've got 3 months of crysta keyed in - I am not going to delete my character or anything, but I am furious. FURIOUS.

SE says nothing for weeks and then emerges from the ether to nerf one of the few things I actually logged in semi-religiously to do.
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#10 Jan 19 2011 at 12:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I am currently playing a rom of Lunar for sega CD. The voice acting is way better than XIV. Wow.


Lunar is quite possibly one of the most underrated RPGs of all time. Once you beat Silver Star Story, don't forget to play Lunar 2: Eternal Blue next. It's just as good, if not better depending on who you ask. I got Lunar Silver Star Harmony (PSP remake) and am re-enjoying the game all over again.

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I'm P.O.ed about the nerf - not necessarily just about the SP (cause apparently with GA it is about the same SP as fishing for the whole half hour, maybe just a bit less IF you catch every fish - which I don't on the R30s) - but because they effectively took away my half hour of content and replaced it with 5 minutes of content.

I know it seems crazy that I might actually want to play the game for more than 5 minutes at a time occasionally...

I guess for me the fact that they took something away from me that I enjoyed - something that made me feel like I was progressing - and replaced it with a quest where I hook 6 fish and don't feel like I am progressing at all. So yeah, now I will spend more time running to the leve than doing it. I guess this is just par for the course - but I am angry.

I would rather have 1/2 hour of less boosted SP than 5 minutes of more boosted SP. Crazy, I know - but I want to actually play the game.

I'm trying to spare my LS mates and playing offline games until I am less furious - but if SE doesn't say something soon (and it better not be "we're adding an auction house!") I am going to begin to commence to start looking at other options for an MMO. I've got 3 months of crysta keyed in - I am not going to delete my character or anything, but I am furious. FURIOUS.

SE says nothing for weeks and then emerges from the ether to nerf one of the few things I actually logged in semi-religiously to do.


Wow. See... this post REALLY scares me, and most people won't understand why, so I'll have to explain:

Back when we all (most of the original members of our linkshell) started playing together in Beta 3, we all had positive outlooks on the game. As time went on through Beta 3 and Open Beta, these positive outlooks started to dim. Admittedly, I was one of the first ones to lose their positive outlook, but that's not relevant to the point I'm going to make.

On a scale of 1-10, where 10 is "most excited" and 10 is "least excited", I'd say we all started at a 9-10. Over time, these numbers tarted to drop, but Olor has been an 11 as long as I can remember. Olor has always been looking on the bright side of things, always the one telling me that the game will be great, always the one telling me that I need to stop being negative and look at all the awesome things about XIV, that I'm overreacting, etc. While I may have disagreed and argued with her, she was always defending the game. On several occasions, I'd even try to get her to say something negative about the game. Even one negative thing at all. And her answer would usually end up being a positive one anyway, something like "Well, X isn't as good as it could be but it's still fun!" or something like that.

For Olor, someone who has been defending the game to me since day 0 whenever I was dogging it, to come out and say something this negative about the game... it really scares me.

It makes me wonder how hard SE really is working at restoring the faith and trust of their players when someone who has been one of their biggest cheerleaders is outright ****** off.
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#11 Jan 19 2011 at 12:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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For the last week I've logged in and not really felt like doing anything. Progressing seems empty. I like chatting/hanging out with the LS cause they are cool - but I guess the monumental lack of any word from the developers has really started to take its toll on me - at least before we had something to look forward to... but now, nothing but a nerf of something I used to log in an enjoy doing....

-no word from the developers on content
-still can't rent extra retainers
-Notorius Monsters ended up sucking since SE decided that only R50s deserve to have something to do besides grind
-absolute silence on the direction this game is going/NGE etc




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#12 Jan 19 2011 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah this is sad. The one dedicated fisher we had was not pleased with this at all. He has stopped leveling everything in the game BUT fisher and he is mid 30's. I tried fishing for one hour and gave up, NPCed all my lures and rod. I got to rank 3 without ever CATCHING a fish and it was horrid,slow, made me go back to my fatigued Glad. Now you gonna cut the SP? You want some happy people? add more ways to gain SP not take them away. Simple yet ignored.
#13 Jan 19 2011 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Again is their actual proof of the nerf? If so can someone walk me through it? I'm not a fisherman.

If fishing is indeed nerfed, I hope this isn't par for the course and SE thinks they should start nerfing the other crafts too. TBH, I love that they are treating crafts like regular jobs. I LOVE <3 <3 <3 crafting! I would hate for jobs to be treated like they were in XI, I felt like I was getting no where with them, here, at least to me, they matter!
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#14 Jan 19 2011 at 12:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
For the last week I've logged in and not really felt like doing anything. Progressing seems empty. I like chatting/hanging out with the LS cause they are cool - but I guess the monumental lack of any word from the developers has really started to take its toll on me - at least before we had something to look forward to... but now, nothing but a nerf of something I used to log in an enjoy doing....

-no word from the developers on content
-still can't rent extra retainers
-Notorius Monsters ended up sucking since SE decided that only R50s deserve to have something to do besides grind
-absolute silence on the direction this game is going/NGE etc







Olor, I can feel your anguish. I have defended this game to my husband who HATES this game... having the new developement team or whoever is in charge of PR and communication with the players now sucks compared to whoever had that responsibility last. I feel in a way that its XI all over again on that front.

"Lets keep our mouths shut and not say a **** thing until it's too late! ABWHWHWHHASHAHAHAH!!!!"...not cool and I'm losing my patience...fast.
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#15 Jan 19 2011 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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nonameoflevi wrote:
Yeah this is sad. The one dedicated fisher we had was not pleased with this at all. He has stopped leveling everything in the game BUT fisher and he is mid 30's. I tried fishing for one hour and gave up, NPCed all my lures and rod. I got to rank 3 without ever CATCHING a fish and it was horrid,slow, made me go back to my fatigued Glad. Now you gonna cut the SP? You want some happy people? add more ways to gain SP not take them away. Simple yet ignored.


Fishing is slow. I would be utterly shocked if one member of the brain trust that decided to do this has ever progressed past fisher 10.

Let me see:

Fishers - unlike every other DoL can't see their main nodes, "schools." If you've ranked up botanist a bit and you are tooling around and you see a sparkly tree - it is easy as pie to walk over to it and smack it for some SP/stuff.

For a fisher - na uh. If you want to fish on the "fly" you have to carry at least 2 baits/lures on you at all times (realistically to not go crazy you should prolly have at least 4) - OH and the best all purpose ones are DROPPED ONLY - so forget being able to use the best bait for the time at any time - nope.

No other DoL has to carry a bunch of different doo-hikies to even get basic crap from their nodes/rank up. No other DoL has invisible nodes.

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#16 Jan 19 2011 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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Again is their actual proof of the nerf? If so can someone walk me through it? I'm not a fisherman.


From what I understand there was a leve you do as fisher and with GA gave you boosted SP for 30 minutes. Now it only gives SP for the fish the leve requires. And while some may see that as an exploit, if you ever tried fishing like I did, you would poke your eyes out at it.
#17 Jan 19 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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The lack of communication / direction for the game is indeed a bad sign. Yes there was a fishing nerf, however in fairness it was a mechanic that was faulty from the get go. Perhaps a leve(s) requiring you to catch 15-20 fish would give Guardian's favor some use for fishing.
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#18 Jan 19 2011 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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nonameoflevi wrote:
Quote:
Again is their actual proof of the nerf? If so can someone walk me through it? I'm not a fisherman.


From what I understand there was a leve you do as fisher and with GA gave you boosted SP for 30 minutes. Now it only gives SP for the fish the leve requires. And while some may see that as an exploit, if you ever tried fishing like I did, you would poke your eyes out at it.


OH GOD! Yeah...SE get off your @$$'s and change that. That is BS!. I hope they don't do the same thing to miner! I will be livid!
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#19 Jan 19 2011 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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LillithaFenimore wrote:
Again is their actual proof of the nerf? If so can someone walk me through it? I'm not a fisherman.

If fishing is indeed nerfed, I hope this isn't par for the course and SE thinks they should start nerfing the other crafts too. TBH, I love that they are treating crafts like regular jobs. I LOVE <3 <3 <3 crafting! I would hate for jobs to be treated like they were in XI, I felt like I was getting no where with them, here, at least to me, they matter!


Ehhh...everything that I've been able to dig up about the fishing "nerf" so far is that you can no longer continue to fish for boosted SP under Guardian's Aspect once you've fulfilled the leve objectives.

Interestingly enough, a google search for "FFXIV fishing nerf" came up with some miscellaneous sites not explaining anything about the update changes but it did come up with links to one site that explained how to game the system for the "investigate three points" leves to do exactly what people are ****** that they can no longer do. The site advertised itself as a cheat site for FFXIV. I didn't follow the links because those sites are typically bad mojo but I just found it a bit...interesting...that people are mad that they can no longer do something that you can learn how to do on a cheat site.

I'm not saying that these people were exploiting (ie. ban them!!). But they WERE gaming the leves. There's no getting around it. They were milking Guardian's Aspect SP boost beyond what the leve was really intended to be offering. There's no way they could have not known that but they did it and now it's like a major surprise that it has been changed? Really? C'mon.

I'm not sure how anyone could arrive at the conclusion that any strategy for SP gain that includes the words "fail on purpose" isn't gaming the system. Should be/shouldn't be doesn't enter into the conversation. SE creates a game and they create rules for the game and people don't like the rules so they find a way around them. That's gaming the system. So you find your handy-dandy workaround and you milk it for as long as you can and in the back of your mind you have to know that at some point SE is going to come along and close the loophole.

Olorinus is good people and I don't want to make it seem like I'm coming down on her but sometimes you just have to face the facts. If the primary source of entertainment you're able to find in the game requires you to leverage a loophole to make it feel like you're progressing at a pace that's worthwhile, it says a lot about the game, doesn't it? If you don't like the process, you don't like the process. That's the issue here. SE (partially) filled the game with things that a lot of people just find to be not all that entertaining. And then they add in a bunch of other things that a lot of people just find downright irritating. And then they wrap it all up in an epic grind while people wait for the truly fun stuff to be added. And what they end up with is a game that very few people would be willing to play.

It's only a nerf if they take something that was working as intended and make it less rewarding. Fishing under Guardian's Aspect after you've met the leve objectives was obviously not what they intended to have people doing or they wouldn't have changed it so that you can no longer do it. That's not a nerf...that's closing a loophole. Nobody should be surprised.
#20 Jan 19 2011 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:


I'm not sure how anyone could arrive at the conclusion that any strategy for SP gain that includes the words "fail on purpose" isn't gaming the system.


I never "failed on purpose" - the people that "fail on purpose" are the ones linking the best DoW/DoM leves for 10-20K SP a shot. When that is taken away from players by SE - then we can talk about exploits.



Edited, Jan 19th 2011 11:22am by Olorinus
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#21 Jan 19 2011 at 1:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:


Olorinus is good people and I don't want to make it seem like I'm coming down on her but sometimes you just have to face the facts. If the primary source of entertainment you're able to find in the game requires you to leverage a loophole to make it feel like you're progressing at a pace that's worthwhile, it says a lot about the game, doesn't it? If you don't like the process, you don't like the process. That's the issue here. SE (partially) filled the game with things that a lot of people just find to be not all that entertaining. And then they add in a bunch of other things that a lot of people just find downright irritating. And then they wrap it all up in an epic grind while people wait for the truly fun stuff to be added. And what they end up with is a game that very few people would be willing to play.



Apparently the SP gain is the same or close to it now - it is not so much the SP that ****** me off - it is the fact that SE thinks that running to a camp for 5 minutes of quest is worth my time.

especially when that 5 minutes of fun is unlinkable - and takes up 1 of 8 chances I have to do a quest every 1.5 days.

I don't actually mind fishing just in one spot to rank up outside of leves as much as I mind SE seeming to make a point of taking something I enjoyed and making it suck.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#22 Jan 19 2011 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm not sure how anyone could arrive at the conclusion that any strategy for SP gain that includes the words "fail on purpose" isn't gaming the system.


So then what you are also saying is that if I get to all my leve targets in 60 seconds[think kill 2/2 imps spawing on your first two attacks] I should just skip all the other targets because after all, that would be gaming/milking the system to get SP?

Shoot why have leves at all. Who needs alternative ways to gain SP if leves arent there to be gamed?
#23 Jan 19 2011 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I would rather have 1/2 hour of less boosted SP than 5 minutes of more boosted SP. Crazy, I know - but I want to actually play the game.


I can definately agree with this. I hate when it takes me 10-15ish minutes to run to a camp and I complete 3 leves in 15-20 minutes on DoW. However I also hate the run back and forth leves in Nanawa Mines... oddly I like Levinshower at Nophicas. Both which when solo always last me 28ish minutes.

That might be one of the biggest problems with leves, they are over way too fast. Many people log in, collect leves and an hour later log off for a day and a half.
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#24 Jan 19 2011 at 1:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Aurelius wrote:


I'm not sure how anyone could arrive at the conclusion that any strategy for SP gain that includes the words "fail on purpose" isn't gaming the system.


I never "failed on purpose" - the people that "fail on purpose" are the ones linking the best DoW/DoM leves for 10-20K SP a shot. When that is taken away from players by SE - then we can talk about exploits.


All I'm saying is that you had to have known that continuing to fish after you'd completed the leve objectives was not likely to be something the devs had in mind. I never tried that little GA shenanigan on those leves. I learned early on that it wasn't worth the Divine Favor to do those leves as they were intended to be done with Guardian's Aspect. I saved Guardian's Aspect for the "catch three of <x> fish" just as I would save it for the "gather three of <x> ore" for mining. That way you've got a much better chance of getting the most bang for your Divine Favor buck.

Quote:
Apparently the SP gain is the same or close to it now - it is not so much the SP that ****** me off - it is the fact that SE thinks that running to a camp for 5 minutes of quest is worth my time.

especially when that 5 minutes of fun is unlinkable - and takes up 1 of 8 chances I have to do a quest every 1.5 days.

I don't actually mind fishing just in one spot to rank up outside of leves as much as I mind SE seeming to make a point of taking something I enjoyed and making it suck.


My question to you would be what made fishing so special that they got something miners and botanists didn't? Miners could never run around on the "investigate three mining point" leves and mine non-leve nodes and get Guardian's Aspect SP bonus from what they dug up. Botanists couldn't do it for their "investigate three trees" leves. Now the fishing leves are the same as they are for the other DoL classes. You pick up your leve, you activate your leve, you complete your leve objectives and you finish the leve at the aetheryte gate that spawns.
#25 Jan 19 2011 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
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LillithaFenimore wrote:
nonameoflevi wrote:
Quote:
Again is their actual proof of the nerf? If so can someone walk me through it? I'm not a fisherman.


From what I understand there was a leve you do as fisher and with GA gave you boosted SP for 30 minutes. Now it only gives SP for the fish the leve requires. And while some may see that as an exploit, if you ever tried fishing like I did, you would poke your eyes out at it.


OH GOD! Yeah...SE get off your @$$'s and change that. That is BS!. I hope they don't do the same thing to miner! I will be livid!


um please correct me if im wrong but from what I've seen GA doesnt give boosted SP on Non-leve mining points while in a leve
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#26 Jan 19 2011 at 1:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
For the last week I've logged in and not really felt like doing anything. Progressing seems empty. I like chatting/hanging out with the LS cause they are cool - but I guess the monumental lack of any word from the developers has really started to take its toll on me - at least before we had something to look forward to... but now, nothing but a nerf of something I used to log in an enjoy doing....

-no word from the developers on content
-still can't rent extra retainers
-Notorius Monsters ended up sucking since SE decided that only R50s deserve to have something to do besides grind
-absolute silence on the direction this game is going/NGE etc


/sigh, this is pretty much where I'm at also. I just don't understand why there has been no new information from them. What exactly are they waiting for, more people to quit? Every day I hear nothing from them, I lose a little bit more motivation to log in. I mean, if this is their way of pleasing their customers (dead silence for weeks), it's not something I want to continue playing. I really had hoped that SE had finally understood the importance of telling their playerbase what they were doing and what they were changing on a regular basis, but it doesn't look like they have. To me, it seems like they baited us all (pun intended) with the Nov/Dec updates to make us think things were moving swiftly, but really it was just gimmick. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but if they don't give us something soon, I'm not sure I'll be around to finally find out.
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#27 Jan 19 2011 at 1:44 PM Rating: Decent
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nonameoflevi wrote:
Quote:
I'm not sure how anyone could arrive at the conclusion that any strategy for SP gain that includes the words "fail on purpose" isn't gaming the system.


So then what you are also saying is that if I get to all my leve targets in 60 seconds[think kill 2/2 imps spawing on your first two attacks] I should just skip all the other targets because after all, that would be gaming/milking the system to get SP?

Shoot why have leves at all. Who needs alternative ways to gain SP if leves arent there to be gamed?


You can't compare combat leves to DoL leves like that. In order to do that, you'd have to have found a battlecraft leve that you can do on a specific class that allows you to get bonus SP from Guardian's Aspect by killing non-leve mobs. That's what people were doing with the fishing leve. They were taking their bonus SP from Guardian's Aspect and continuing to fish non-leve objectives and they were still getting the bonus SP.
#28 Jan 19 2011 at 1:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Metin wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:
nonameoflevi wrote:
Quote:
Again is their actual proof of the nerf? If so can someone walk me through it? I'm not a fisherman.


From what I understand there was a leve you do as fisher and with GA gave you boosted SP for 30 minutes. Now it only gives SP for the fish the leve requires. And while some may see that as an exploit, if you ever tried fishing like I did, you would poke your eyes out at it.


OH GOD! Yeah...SE get off your @$$'s and change that. That is BS!. I hope they don't do the same thing to miner! I will be livid!


um please correct me if im wrong but from what I've seen GA doesnt give boosted SP on Non-leve mining points while in a leve


Not on non-leve mining points, but it DOES give bonus SP on attempts that don't give you the HQ item you're going for.
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#29 Jan 19 2011 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
nonameoflevi wrote:
Quote:
I'm not sure how anyone could arrive at the conclusion that any strategy for SP gain that includes the words "fail on purpose" isn't gaming the system.


So then what you are also saying is that if I get to all my leve targets in 60 seconds[think kill 2/2 imps spawing on your first two attacks] I should just skip all the other targets because after all, that would be gaming/milking the system to get SP?

Shoot why have leves at all. Who needs alternative ways to gain SP if leves arent there to be gamed?


You can't compare combat leves to DoL leves like that. In order to do that, you'd have to have found a battlecraft leve that you can do on a specific class that allows you to get bonus SP from Guardian's Aspect by killing non-leve mobs. That's what people were doing with the fishing leve. They were taking their bonus SP from Guardian's Aspect and continuing to fish non-leve objectives and they were still getting the bonus SP.


But technically this is the exact same thing. The leve objective for imp leves is the imps, not the other mobs. If you happen to go 2/2 on imps, and run away to fight the other mobs, that is exactly what you are doing. Using GA on this, you are gaining added SP on mobs that were not part of the leve objective.
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#30 Jan 19 2011 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:

Not on non-leve mining points, but it DOES give bonus SP on attempts that don't give you the HQ item you're going for.


No it doesn't. There are two kinds of DoL leves. "Investigate three nodes" and "gather three items." If you invoke Guardian's Aspect on the three node leves, you get bonus SP from anything you successfully gather out of those three nodes and nothing else. If you invoke Guardian's Aspect on the three item leves, you get bonus SP for the three items you dig up and nothing else.
#31 Jan 19 2011 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
But technically this is the exact same thing. The leve objective for imp leves is the imps, not the other mobs. If you happen to go 2/2 on imps, and run away to fight the other mobs, that is exactly what you are doing. Using GA on this, you are gaining added SP on mobs that were not part of the leve objective.


It's not the exact same thing because for battlecraft leves, you only get bonus SP for killing mobs that spawned explicitly for that leve. You can't run around killing mobs that are there for anyone to kill and get bonus SP from it, only the mobs that spawned when you activated the leve. For fishing, you would activate the leve and it would spawn three nodes for you to fish from, but you could fish anywhere and get the bonus SP from GA. It would be like activating a battlecraft leve out of Skull Valley and then running around killing plains rats and generic spawn dodos and getting bonus SP from it.
#32 Jan 19 2011 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
For fishing, you would activate the leve and it would spawn three nodes for you to fish from, but you could fish anywhere and get the bonus SP from GA.


No... or at least I never tried this. You got bonus SP for continuing to fish the nodes.

I guess we should ask SE to make it so when you spawn those imps that all the rest of the dodos and fireflies disappear? Cause you know, wouldn't want anyone to cap after 1500 hours of play instead of 1520 hours
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#33 Jan 19 2011 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
For fishing, you would activate the leve and it would spawn three nodes for you to fish from, but you could fish anywhere and get the bonus SP from GA.


No... or at least I never tried this. You got bonus SP for continuing to fish the nodes.

I guess we should ask SE to make it so when you spawn those imps that all the rest of the dodos and fireflies disappear? Cause you know, wouldn't want anyone to cap after 1500 hours of play instead of 1520 hours


Every time I did the fishing quest to fish from the three noes, the node would dissipate (and disappear from the leve tracker on the minimap) as soon as I got credit for fishing from that node. I don't know why it is that every time a developer closes a loophole players argue like gaming the loophole was fine, but whatever. Suit yourself.
#34 Jan 19 2011 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Metin wrote:
if there is an imbalance there is a need for a fix...

as for the need for this thread? no. there is a thread on the fishing "nerf" or changes made already



Sigh. Can the 'tude, bro. There's absolutely a reason for it. I'm asking if it's really in SE's better business sense to (if not actually) perceivably penalize people, most of whom are basically sticking around waiting for this game to get good on faith and (until now) vaporare promises.
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#35 Jan 19 2011 at 3:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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I will explain the "exploit" that was fixed as best I can.

If you take the "examine points" type leves and grab guardian aspect, you would get ~50 more sp per fish. If you continued fishing at the point after you had caught the number of fish it required, you would continue to get his ~50 sp bonus per fish.

I would stay at the next to last node and fish there until I felt I had just enough time to hit the last node and still finish the leve successfully. With the best lure for the particular site I could manage to get around 30 fish per leve. That meant constant attention for 30 minutes, no bathroom breaks, no chatting.

50 x 30 = 1500

1500 extra sp for a leve, that took 30 min of constant vigilance.

maybe it wasn't the way they had intended the leve to work, but as slow as fishing was I considered these leves a treat.
#36 Jan 19 2011 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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From my understanding the fishing change wasn't a nerf it was a fix to an exploit.
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#37 Jan 19 2011 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
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hexaemeron wrote:
Metin wrote:
if there is an imbalance there is a need for a fix...

as for the need for this thread? no. there is a thread on the fishing "nerf" or changes made already



Sigh. Can the 'tude, bro. There's absolutely a reason for it. I'm asking if it's really in SE's better business sense to (if not actually) perceivably penalize people, most of whom are basically sticking around waiting for this game to get good on faith and (until now) vaporare promises.


all i see is them making the game fair. if there was an exploit in fishing as there seems to have been then it needed fixing this has no bearing on my opinion that the game is already good and will get better.

I'm about to do some more mining leves so Ill check the point previously made about mining.

"can the 'tude bro"??? youre my new favourite person, say something else funny
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#38 Jan 19 2011 at 4:18 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
BartelX wrote:
But technically this is the exact same thing. The leve objective for imp leves is the imps, not the other mobs. If you happen to go 2/2 on imps, and run away to fight the other mobs, that is exactly what you are doing. Using GA on this, you are gaining added SP on mobs that were not part of the leve objective.


It's not the exact same thing because for battlecraft leves, you only get bonus SP for killing mobs that spawned explicitly for that leve. You can't run around killing mobs that are there for anyone to kill and get bonus SP from it, only the mobs that spawned when you activated the leve. For fishing, you would activate the leve and it would spawn three nodes for you to fish from, but you could fish anywhere and get the bonus SP from GA. It would be like activating a battlecraft leve out of Skull Valley and then running around killing plains rats and generic spawn dodos and getting bonus SP from it.


Perhaps it was changed after you quit? I know that if I do one of the collect 3 items leves, I gain about 110 sp a pop from a grade 3 node at r21 mining. However, without GA I only gain about 80-85 sp per pop.


Quote:
It's not the exact same thing because for battlecraft leves, you only get bonus SP for killing mobs that spawned explicitly for that leve. You can't run around killing mobs that are there for anyone to kill and get bonus SP from it, only the mobs that spawned when you activated the leve. For fishing, you would activate the leve and it would spawn three nodes for you to fish from, but you could fish anywhere and get the bonus SP from GA. It would be like activating a battlecraft leve out of Skull Valley and then running around killing plains rats and generic spawn dodos and getting bonus SP from it.


My apologies, I didn't realize this was the case. I thought you only got the bonus SP from fishing those 3 nodes on ANYTHING you brought up. They ARE still fairly similar situations however. Also, this CAN be done with mining leves of the "collect 3 items" variety, you simply fail to hit the right spot when you know it is the HQ item (usually the only items that take 2 successive strikes) until you run the timer all the way down, thus making more SP. Again, this is assuming that what I said above is accurate, getting more SP on regular attempts and not just the HQs.

Edited, Jan 19th 2011 5:22pm by BartelX
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#39 Jan 19 2011 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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tepidwaterplz wrote:
I will explain the "exploit" that was fixed as best I can.

If you take the "examine points" type leves and grab guardian aspect, you would get ~50 more sp per fish. If you continued fishing at the point after you had caught the number of fish it required, you would continue to get his ~50 sp bonus per fish.

I would stay at the next to last node and fish there until I felt I had just enough time to hit the last node and still finish the leve successfully. With the best lure for the particular site I could manage to get around 30 fish per leve. That meant constant attention for 30 minutes, no bathroom breaks, no chatting.

50 x 30 = 1500

1500 extra sp for a leve, that took 30 min of constant vigilance.

maybe it wasn't the way they had intended the leve to work, but as slow as fishing was I considered these leves a treat.


Well for other DoL, we only get 5 x 3 x 50 for those leves, and that's 750 SP extra for a leve, regardless of how many minute of constant digging/chopping or not. Fish can get away while nibbling, but the fact that you don't have to move out of the next to last node is entirely different to other DoL because we simply can't. We don't have unlimited node, we only have limited node. FSH has both limited and unlimited.

BartelX wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
BartelX wrote:
But technically this is the exact same thing. The leve objective for imp leves is the imps, not the other mobs. If you happen to go 2/2 on imps, and run away to fight the other mobs, that is exactly what you are doing. Using GA on this, you are gaining added SP on mobs that were not part of the leve objective.


It's not the exact same thing because for battlecraft leves, you only get bonus SP for killing mobs that spawned explicitly for that leve. You can't run around killing mobs that are there for anyone to kill and get bonus SP from it, only the mobs that spawned when you activated the leve. For fishing, you would activate the leve and it would spawn three nodes for you to fish from, but you could fish anywhere and get the bonus SP from GA. It would be like activating a battlecraft leve out of Skull Valley and then running around killing plains rats and generic spawn dodos and getting bonus SP from it.


Perhaps it was changed after you quit? I know that if I do one of the collect 3 items leves, I gain about 110 sp a pop from a grade 3 node at r21 mining. However, without GA I only gain about 80-85 sp per pop.


I call bull on this. Sorry but I grind on grade 3 at r24 Botanist, and I still get 100 average SP per pop outside of leve. At r26/27 is when grade 3 start giving you only 80-85 SP and you have to start moving on grade 4 at r28 when you get the new Scan. No, for BOT/MIN you only get SP for that specific item for the find 3 X item leve, the only reason I purposely failing them is because most of the time the trees are very close to each other and they belong to the same type, hence you can try to fail and look for a specific other item from that tree. No extra bonus for failing, even with GA.

Edited, Jan 19th 2011 5:40pm by Khornette

Edited, Jan 19th 2011 5:41pm by Khornette
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#40 Jan 19 2011 at 5:00 PM Rating: Default
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fishing is a waste of time in this game so this doesn't bother me.

I just want to kill stuff and make shiny stuff with my tools.
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#41 Jan 19 2011 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Metin wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:
nonameoflevi wrote:
Quote:
Again is their actual proof of the nerf? If so can someone walk me through it? I'm not a fisherman.


From what I understand there was a leve you do as fisher and with GA gave you boosted SP for 30 minutes. Now it only gives SP for the fish the leve requires. And while some may see that as an exploit, if you ever tried fishing like I did, you would poke your eyes out at it.


OH GOD! Yeah...SE get off your @$$'s and change that. That is BS!. I hope they don't do the same thing to miner! I will be livid!


um please correct me if im wrong but from what I've seen GA doesnt give boosted SP on Non-leve mining points while in a leve


Not on non-leve mining points, but it DOES give bonus SP on attempts that don't give you the HQ item you're going for.


You made me doubt my own sanity but after having tested this I can safely say that you are wrong. Unless of course you are talking about an average of 1 or 2 sp... but i doubt it. The only benefit to it is that the quest directs you to another mining point in a relatively small area and if you are skilled and lucky can avoid HQ items for longer. Please see the DoL class forum for more info on mining.

If Fishing was gaining the kind of bonus I'm reading about in these threads then I'm glad its fixed.
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#42 Jan 19 2011 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Perhaps it was changed after you quit? I know that if I do one of the collect 3 items leves, I gain about 110 sp a pop from a grade 3 node at r21 mining. However, without GA I only gain about 80-85 sp per pop.


You might want to check again. Rank 21 miner on grade three nodes should be getting over 100 SP/successful dig, which is in line with what you're getting from the non-leve items you're mining from those nodes for the "gather three ore" leves. It's the same for all three DoH classes on the "gather three <item>" leves. You get GA SP bonus when you gather one of those items, otherwise you get the standard amount based on your rank vs. the tier of the node.


Quote:
My apologies, I didn't realize this was the case. I thought you only got the bonus SP from fishing those 3 nodes on ANYTHING you brought up. They ARE still fairly similar situations however. Also, this CAN be done with mining leves of the "collect 3 items" variety, you simply fail to hit the right spot when you know it is the HQ item (usually the only items that take 2 successive strikes) until you run the timer all the way down, thus making more SP. Again, this is assuming that what I said above is accurate, getting more SP on regular attempts and not just the HQs.


I used to do 6 mining leves every reset for most of my time spent playing the game (CE launch until a few weeks ago, give or take). The SP I'd get for the "investigate three nodes" leves without GA was the same as the SP I'd get for gathering from any common node of the same tier. The SP I'd get for non-leve items from "gather three <ore>" leves is the same as I'd get for the "investigate three nodes" leves, which makes it the same as the SP I was getting from common (non-leve) nodes any other time.
#43 Jan 19 2011 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I wouldn't exactly classify XIV's population as "in free-fall".

At a casual obsevation, it seems to be holding steady. There was much more player drop off a few months ago, now it's rather stable.

As far as the nerf goes, it does seem to be tweaked a bit badly, but hey, what have they adjusted right the first time so far? We're still waiting for something on general DoW/DoH SP - be it adjustment or just SE telling us to stfu cuz they want it that way.

Apparently SE just wants us to wear the soles of our shoes off no matter what we're doing or where we're going in this game.
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#44 Jan 19 2011 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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The real nerf isn't so much the SP, truth is the SP is fairly similar to what it used to be. It just comes in much faster. The real nerf is that you get much fewer gathering opportunities on the leves now. This is a big problem for fishing because leves were one of the few ways to increase you chances to gain nodal type fish. Fishing by node is much different than logging or mining by node.

There are a lot more logging/harvesting or mining/quarrying nodes on any given map. The few fishing/spearfishing nodes are spread far apart and most maps only have 2 or 3 fishing nodes and 2 or 3 spearfishing nodes. The locations are fixed but that doesn't help because they are so far apart in most cases. What this means is that nodal fishing is a huge time sink. So most people fish 'off-node'. The problem is that most off-node fishing gives stuff not really desired. Being able to 'extend' a leve was really the best way to increase nodal fishing to try to get 'better' or more desirable fish.

Futhermore, as someone who has leveled both botany and fishing to respectable levels, I can comment that a typical botany leve where you find the three nodes will give significantly more SP than a find the three node fishing leve. The similar botany level will require you to harvest each node 5 times and typically give about 100-120 SP each attempt. So a leve will give about 1500 SP without GF. A fishing leve typically results in 2 collection attempts per node that may result in catching a fish or may not. You get about 120 SP per fish caught, about 60 to 75 if it is not caught - but this still counts. This nets about 600-700 SP per find the three node type leve, roughly half of the comparable botany leve. This is again without GF.

I really don't care about the SP issues that much. What I do dislike is the restriction that was imposed trying to target certain fish. If the leves are going to be so restictive on the number of attempts (botany gets 15 attempts at items per leve, fishing gets about 6!), then the off node fishing needs to be changed back to the way it was.

Just my 2 cents.
#45 Jan 19 2011 at 6:35 PM Rating: Default
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SE has always used the term "adjusted" to mean "changed". it doesn't mean nerf. the people who keep asserting this are mistaken. They've been using that word since XI, and it just means what it says. pull your skirts back up.
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#46 Jan 19 2011 at 7:26 PM Rating: Good
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Well then, I stand corrected. I haven't really done many mining leves recently so I was just going by what I remember, but I must have just been mixing it up with the leves where you just mine the 3 nodes. I really could have sworn that I was getting more SP than my normal mining attempts at grade 3, but perhaps it was just in my head.
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#47 Jan 19 2011 at 8:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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morch wrote:
Futhermore, as someone who has leveled both botany and fishing to respectable levels, I can comment that a typical botany leve where you find the three nodes will give significantly more SP than a find the three node fishing leve. The similar botany level will require you to harvest each node 5 times and typically give about 100-120 SP each attempt. So a leve will give about 1500 SP without GF. A fishing leve typically results in 2 collection attempts per node that may result in catching a fish or may not. You get about 120 SP per fish caught, about 60 to 75 if it is not caught - but this still counts. This nets about 600-700 SP per find the three node type leve, roughly half of the comparable botany leve. This is again without GF.


You also forget the fact that you CAN fail to get anything with Botany, and you get half the SP as well as does count. You DON'T get guaranteed 1500 SP without GF for botany. It's just that Fishing wise fishes can get away even if you do the right thing.
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#48 Jan 19 2011 at 9:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Failing to get the item in botany is definitely the exceptional case. There are leves, such as the ones with mahogany trees, where not getting the item is somewhat common I will agree. However, there are enough leves to pick from that you can avoid doing those if you really want. Fishing is just haphazard in the result and as you point out you can do everything right and still not get the fish.

It is very conceivable in fishing you can lose the fish 6x after doing everything right and end up with 300 SP for a leve. There is pretty much no way that is going to happen in botany unless you are purposefully trying to mess up. Even a mahogany tree leve will consistently give more SP than that.
#49 Jan 19 2011 at 9:12 PM Rating: Good
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morch wrote:
Failing to get the item in botany is definitely the exceptional case. There are leves, such as the ones with mahogany trees, where not getting the item is somewhat common I will agree. However, there are enough leves to pick from that you can avoid doing those if you really want. Fishing is just haphazard in the result and as you point out you can do everything right and still not get the fish.

It is very conceivable in fishing you can lose the fish 6x after doing everything right and end up with 300 SP for a leve. There is pretty much no way that is going to happen in botany unless you are purposefully trying to mess up. Even a mahogany tree leve will consistently give more SP than that.


This so hard. Using the right bait and everything. Imagine the fishing nodes are made of almost nothing but eagle feathers.

It was partially this reason why I logged out in rage last night - of the six fish in the leve - I got 1. So yeah, bummerly.
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#50 Jan 19 2011 at 9:30 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
morch wrote:
Failing to get the item in botany is definitely the exceptional case. There are leves, such as the ones with mahogany trees, where not getting the item is somewhat common I will agree. However, there are enough leves to pick from that you can avoid doing those if you really want. Fishing is just haphazard in the result and as you point out you can do everything right and still not get the fish.

It is very conceivable in fishing you can lose the fish 6x after doing everything right and end up with 300 SP for a leve. There is pretty much no way that is going to happen in botany unless you are purposefully trying to mess up. Even a mahogany tree leve will consistently give more SP than that.


This so hard. Using the right bait and everything. Imagine the fishing nodes are made of almost nothing but eagle feathers.

It was partially this reason why I logged out in rage last night - of the six fish in the leve - I got 1. So yeah, bummerly.


You are not using the right bait, baits have types but doesn't mean you can use all Freshwater baits for all Freshwater fishes.
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#51 Jan 19 2011 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
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Khornette wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
morch wrote:
Failing to get the item in botany is definitely the exceptional case. There are leves, such as the ones with mahogany trees, where not getting the item is somewhat common I will agree. However, there are enough leves to pick from that you can avoid doing those if you really want. Fishing is just haphazard in the result and as you point out you can do everything right and still not get the fish.

It is very conceivable in fishing you can lose the fish 6x after doing everything right and end up with 300 SP for a leve. There is pretty much no way that is going to happen in botany unless you are purposefully trying to mess up. Even a mahogany tree leve will consistently give more SP than that.


This so hard. Using the right bait and everything. Imagine the fishing nodes are made of almost nothing but eagle feathers.

It was partially this reason why I logged out in rage last night - of the six fish in the leve - I got 1. So yeah, bummerly.


You are not using the right bait, baits have types but doesn't mean you can use all Freshwater baits for all Freshwater fishes.


really cause it said "the fish are biting on..." which to me says it is the right bait >.>
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