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#1 Jan 21 2011 at 10:56 AM Rating: Decent
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So one of the big limitations of the PS3 is it's hard drive space, which can be fixed by buying bigger hard drives but must always account for the lowest (even though its 20, realistically it's going to be 80 for 99%) and vram.

This means that the more crap they add, Jumping for example, more menus, more items, more graphics, will use up more vram and eventually lag the game out. Especially in crowded areas.

This is no doubt why the PS3 version has been delayed, they even confirmed this.

The options then either become hard drive swapping, which can be rather slow (that's kind of why you have a Page file in windows), the other is to use flash memory.

In Windows Vista / 7 they have a thing called Readyboost, where your flash drive can sort of act as additional ram as necessary. While on a fast PC you won't notice it, but on slower barely bootable PCs it's major difference.

So, what I'm saying is, in theory couldn't they ship FFXIV for PS3 with a 4 gig flash stick formatted in FAT (the OS the PS3 recognizes) that can be used as a data swap/additional storage? Flash memory is insanely cheap, and adding a 4 gig stick would basically add $1 to the cost of the game, and would probably triple the performance of the game if it was mandatory.

I'm just saying, it works for Windows, and we already know the PS3 is going to be what limits FFXIV, the same way PS2 limits FFXI.


Oh, and of course code FFXIV to make use of it.

Edited, Jan 21st 2011 11:57am by Eadieni
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#2 Jan 21 2011 at 11:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Google "Ps3.5" Its an interesting read that you might enjoy and pertains to your topic :)

Edit: Actually here's a link

http://playstationlifestyle.net/2010/12/09/ps3-5-sony-patent-shows-plans-to-increase-ps3s-power-with-external-processor/

I'm bad at linking. Sorry ^^;

Edited, Jan 21st 2011 12:25pm by Kitprower
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#3 Jan 21 2011 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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The PS3.5 is an interesting Idea. Upgradeable Consoles would be great. I wonder if they implement it how they will actually add an extra CPU/GPU. I haven't cracked open my PS3 yet so I don't know if there are secret unoccupied slots available. But as far as USB goes, that would be pretty slow.
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#4 Jan 21 2011 at 12:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Well I suggested the USB because really, what else would work with existing PS3s?

You can not upgrade the insides of the PS3 as it is now (the ram is soldered in place) except the hard drive.

However that PS3.5 thing could be interesting. I'd just hate for FFXIV to be held back in 2008 because of PS3 limitations when it comes to 2015

The main thing though is, more processing power will only help so much. The problem with MMOs is how much more data they are storing at once than normal games. Every player around you, every piece of armor they are wearing, the jobs and levels of everything around you, your own stats, your quest stats, your inventory, the world time, the weather, your configuration settings, etc.

The PS2 had what, 32 meg of vram and the ps3 has 256 and they said its still not enough. I mean your PC GPU probably has between 512 and 1750 (depending if your using the minimum 9600 or a gtx 480).

256mb video card is ok for 720p mid settings with that kind of processor, but for storing and calculating all the shaders on top of how much it has to store can be brutal to performance. Simply because, in normal games you have Loading screens everywhere to drop data out and swap data, but in MMOs they are relatively continuous.
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#5 Jan 21 2011 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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Not bashing consoles, but this is why you see very few MMORPGs on consoles. Most console games have everything they need on the disk and the DLC isn't rampant enough to warrant needing a huge hard drive to store it.

Most MMORPGs manage to be comprised of way more content than can be fit onto the disk from day one, and have additional mandatory downloads on a regular basis. Since you can't modify the files on the disk with a PS3, those files have to go SOMEWHERE (hard drive) and that adds up FAST.

It's hard to pitch a game on a console when the game takes up 10, 20, even 30+ GB of space. Especially when the hard drives can be as small as 20 GB.
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#6 Jan 21 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh, I'm not bashing your idea of using a Thumb Drive as VRam. I'm mostly curious about the PS3.5, if they can pull that off. Or if they will dub down the Graphics for PS3 verions. I'm just glad I made a PC instead of waiting.
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#7 Jan 21 2011 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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It does kind of leave me wondering now if the reason so much of the game runs server side rather than client wasn't to lessen the load the console would have to face. Not being a big console gamer I never really considered the limits the PS3 would put on the game

-Teeg
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#8 Jan 21 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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Disk I/O on any USB 2 mass storage device fail in comparison to the SATA drives in the PS3. Given the limited physical memory, a HDD based game will be very I/O dependant, making anything less than SATA (or if it had USB3) impossible.

At least some people out there are thinking!

When FFXI was released on the PS2, it came with an HDD. Maybe they should do the same /w the PS3 release. .
#9 Jan 21 2011 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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sideways wrote:
Disk I/O on any USB 2 mass storage device fail in comparison to the SATA drives in the PS3. Given the limited physical memory, a HDD based game will be very I/O dependant, making anything less than SATA (or if it had USB3) impossible.

At least some people out there are thinking!

When FFXI was released on the PS2, it came with an HDD. Maybe they should do the same /w the PS3 release. .


To be fair, HDs are readily available for PS3 as a standalone purchase. PS2s... far less so.

One could always argue that the game could just require a larger hard drive, same way that some N64 games required the rumble pack or expansion pack.

Side note: Thinking about the rumble pack on N64 and remembering that there actually used to be a time before controllers had vibration capabilities built in, and remembering when I first popped the thing in and thought it was the most awesome thing ever in LoZ:OoT makes me suddenly feel old.
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#10 Jan 21 2011 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
When FFXI was released on the PS2, it came with an HDD. Maybe they should do the same /w the PS3 release. .


The PS3 comes with a hard drive. A 20, 40, 60, 80, 120, 250, or 320 gig depending on when you bought it.
But you have the right thinking.

I was merely suggesting using a ready boost style thing using the flash drive for extra ram, for the data that isn't accessed as often but doesn't want to be downloaded every time you open the menu. Mainly, menu items, and maps, and stuff. Only, to include the device with ff14, and make it mandatory to plug it in (So that all players are expected to have it, this raising the minimum bar for 14, allowing the pc and ps3 to get better as time goes on)

The PS3 has a sata hard drive already, but as any windows user knows, Paging is not exactly speedy. Want proof? Look how fast your PC is on Windows Vista with 512 meg of ram. Try opening a 150 meg PDF, grab a coffee and come back in 5 min. That's because there isn't enough ram to open everything running, so it will store some of the contents in the ram to the hard drive to make room for more. This process is slow, but it's better than being told "Insufficient memory" and denying the ability to open the application.

The readyboost, Ie using a flash drive as ram (Vista/7 Only) allows computers with 512 or 1 gig of ram to act as if they have 2gig, 4 gig, 16 gig, etc. It's slower than actual ram but faster than hard drive swap.

The ps3, having only 256 ram and 256 vram would be a good candidate for this :P

I definitely want the PS3 to do well, but I don't want PC users to get a crappy copy of 14 because of it.
The PS3 version is vital to the success of 14 - because probably half the population is waiting for it to join the game. It's the Relaunch of this game.

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#11 Jan 21 2011 at 4:22 PM Rating: Decent
It's so crazy that the N64 did it how many years ago with the Expansion Pack or whatever it was called?

Honestly I think it's a good idea, but no matter what the idea is... 3 years from now it won't be enough. PC's can change on a weekly basis, consoles can't. I'm actually surprised how well the motion control add-ons for PS3 and 360 went over. Generally requiring an upgrade when it comes to consoles doesn't work. If the PS3 could utilize ANY USB thumb drive for XIV that would be awesome...
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#12 Jan 21 2011 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
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It would be interesting if the team included a flash drive with every copy of XIV on PS3-- and a script to run a ReadyBoost equivalent of course. Very good idea OP.
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#13 Jan 21 2011 at 7:36 PM Rating: Default
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Just FYI.

The FIRST PS3 ever released had a 60GB Hard Drive. The 2nd generation had a 40GB Hard Drive, the 3rd Generation had 80GB and every PS3 since the Slim Version has either 120GB, 250GB or 320GB...so please...don't spread stuff thats not true.

The only console that ever had a 20GB hard drive was the hard drive you could buy for the PS2, and the X-Box 360 had a version with a 20GB hard-drive.

Second...the thing that limits the PS3 and the conversion of FFXIV is the RAM...no hard-drive or any other bullsh*t, its the RAM only, cause the PS3 has 512MB RAM, which would be totally fine, if the devs could use all of these 512RAM, but the PS3 was designed so the RAM is split in 2x256MB where only 256MB can be used for graphics, textures etc, and the other 256MB can be used for process' etc. If they could use the RAM as they wish, they had no problem with converting FFXIV to PS3, which is what they said several times by now.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2011 1:37am by Shezard
#14 Jan 21 2011 at 7:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Shezard wrote:
Just FYI.

The FIRST PS3 ever released had a 60GB Hard Drive. The 2nd generation had a 40GB Hard Drive, the 3rd Generation had 80GB and every PS3 since the Slim Version has either 120GB, 250GB or 320GB...so please...don't spread stuff thats not true.

The only console that ever had a 20GB hard drive was the hard drive you could buy for the PS2, and the X-Box 360 had a version with a 20GB hard-drive.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playstation_3 <- 1st Gen PS3 came in 20 GB and 60 GB

http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=64005 <- 20 GB PS3

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=20+GB+PS3&_sacat=See-All-Categories <- Plenty of 20 GB PS3s

So uh...

Shezard wrote:
Just FYI.

please...don't spread stuff thats not true.


^ This ^

"Two hardware configurations were also announced for the console: a 20 GB model and a 60 GB model, priced at US$499 (€499) and US$599 (€599), respectively."

At $100/€100 less, I can see a lot of people picking the 20 GB model.

Edited, Jan 21st 2011 8:42pm by Mikhalia
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#15 Jan 21 2011 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
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Reading this reminds me of Sega 32X and the before mentioned vaporware Nintendo 64 HDD.

Anyone else see or suspect the next gen consoles being computer-ish? Upgradeable, portable, mainstream OS ? And "consoles" as we know it go portable, like the 3DS and PSP2 only? Just seems easier to have a computer to game on (and do all that other stuff they do) scrap consoles for portables. Give the portables a video out option. Anyway. My thought train has completely derailed.
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#16 Jan 21 2011 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah uh trying to call someone else out on misinformation while providing your own does wonders for credibility.

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#17 Jan 21 2011 at 10:07 PM Rating: Good
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or maybe include a solid state drive, and a readyboost like script, it could have different sizes of SSDs available so you could get a 40ish gigabyte drive if you won't use it for much besides FFXIV up to a 500ish gigabyte drive if you think you'll use a lot of space. And maybe a version without a drive for people who already upgraded to a SSD, but require a SSD.

I'm combining the hard drive and flash drive ideas

Edited, Jan 21st 2011 10:09pm by Leane
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#18 Jan 22 2011 at 6:00 AM Rating: Decent
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The 20GB wasn't released in europe, so that's my bad. Didn't remember there was a 20GB version in JP/US.
But still, the first generation sold horribly and those few persons I know that bought one in the first generation, all got the 60GB model.
#19 Jan 22 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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Shezard wrote:
The 20GB wasn't released in europe, so that's my bad. Didn't remember there was a 20GB version in JP/US.
But still, the first generation sold horribly and those few persons I know that bought one in the first generation, all got the 60GB model.


First gen consoles don't sell as well IME because they're usually insanely expensive and lack the features that future generations will include. Usually only the people who are super excited and have the money to spend will buy in at launch. More people will usually wait 1-3 years for it to come down in price by $100-200 and wait for new/better features or a bundle deal with some free **** before buying in.

Another downside to the 20 GB, IIRC, is that it didn't include built-in wi-fi either.
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#20 Jan 22 2011 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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And the 20 gig only had 2 usb ports didn't it?
The best PS3 was the 60 gig, and it became even better by replacing it's hard drive with a 512 gig.

I've tried SSDs in the PS3 it doesn't help much. I noticed it when installing games more than I did reducing loading times or anything, I'd say your kind of wasting money to put an SSD in a ps3.

Then again, as for active data swapping it could work, except SE wouldn't dream about including a hard drive that costs more than the game.

Flash Drives are nearly free. In fact, a lot of flash drives (2-4gig) -are- free :P


Also the karma bombing on this forum is amazing. My post went from being rated Decent to Excellent in about 2 hours, and I log in today and it's Decent again. According to the replies people seem to think it was a feasible idea that -could in theory- help. People really do love to rate down anything and everything here regardless of content. If this keeps up I'm sure these forums will die (the FFXIV part) when the new official ones come out.
All my posts were either Good or Excellent which means 1-2 users went and rated everything down like a tool. Congrats on being a tool :D

Edited, Jan 22nd 2011 2:54pm by Eadieni
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