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#52 Jan 23 2011 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Quanta wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
Quanta wrote:
I feel this is appropriate, given the current climate of the thread.


I never played WoW, but didn't the RealID system actually link a person's forum account to their real life name? That I think IS too far. Not because I think anyone can find me with just my name, but I play games to escape real life. Using my given name as my screen-name would really detract from the ever decreasing immersion online games have these days.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2011 8:43pm by Hydragyrum


It was proposed that your RealID appear on the forums, but Blizzard withdrew it at the the last minute. I believe one of the community reps gave out their real name as a precursor to the system, and then people tracked down all of their personal information and posted it publicly on the forums within 24 hours.


I think it was faster than that. Poor guy had pizza deliveries, phone calls, tons of stuff to the point where his family had to be moved out for safety. ReadID was not a good idea as presented at the start. It allowed the friends of your friends to see your info. That was changed, but I still don't like it. There's no privacy in the game if you use it. No hopping on an alt server just for a few quiet hrs away from friend, relative or guild stuff.
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#53 Jan 23 2011 at 9:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Vorkosigan wrote:
Quanta wrote:
Lukky wrote:
If it's anything like the beta forums it's gonna get crazy


If it's anything like the beta forums, everyone will say things are just super, even if the entire game is falling apart around them.


You must've been on different beta forums than me then. I think most people simply gave up towards the end tho.
I think the karma system on Zam works. There are ways to combat being karma bombed, mods are pretty quick about it from what I've seen. I will say I'd never used the /ignore function here until the FFXIV forums came along. My red arrow usage has gone up honestly, where before I mostly just rated posts up when I thought they deserved it and ignored the others.


Meh, people get bombed when they say even one negative thing about the game. That said it is only a handful of people still sporting those rose-tinted glasses.

That said I hope the offical forums are pretty snazzy and have a dev section.
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#54 Jan 23 2011 at 12:03 PM Rating: Excellent
Glitterhands wrote:
Quote:
Official forums could be good, or they could start to resemble the official US Playstation forums. I feel braincells die every time I visit those. They're heavily moderated and there is very little in the way of free thinking allowed.
I've never visited the PS forums so I can't really judge. What sort of things are moderated like this? I've only been on a handful of official forums and only one to date really comes down hard on posts (I'm looking at you, Perfect World forum with your "do not mention rival MMO games" rule!).

Any examples of the sort of extreme moderation that official forums get up to?


The Old Republic forums are a pretty disgusting example of over moderation. I used to be a regular until their mods drove me away. That's why I've always been a fan of ZAM. I don't like being treated like a school child. Keep in mind I say this having only been hired on in September, and having been a member of ZAM since August 2004.

Here is a small list of words you aren't allowed to say in the SWTOR forums:
**** pron pornography wtf ***. Sorry to put everyone's delicate psyche though such terror (or, at least, that's the way they must feel about such terrible words).

On top of that, they actually moderate "rudeness", using the same delicateness they use for their auto-word filter. Thanks, but no thanks.
#55 Jan 23 2011 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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It's been a long standing rule of the admins around here, and one that I've disagreed with at some points, but respect nonetheless:

"We don't ban for being stupid"

It really takes A LOT to deserve a ban/mute around here and you really have to bust your *** to deserve it.

Conversely, other forums will sometimes delete or lock threads because of someone using a naughty word, or taking a given point of view, or even just because they don't like them.

I've seen threads around here on Zam where certain posters will outright ***** at the admins or even at the company that owns the site. While I'm sure the admins around here aren't terribly fond of those posters, the important thing is that they allow people to have an opposing point of view.

Like I said, there are some cases where I think that maybe the admins around here are being a little too nice to certain posters who clearly have nothing positive to contribute whatsoever... but I respect that they'd rather do that than outright ban anyone who they don't like for no reason other than not liking them. I could probably name at least half a dozen posters who would have been banned long ago if the admins around here decided to drop the iron fist on them.

Now, while I think that SE's official forums should probably be moderated a little stronger to keep the people who are just being troublemakers at bay, I think that if they deleted every post that they didn't like, it would be a terrible place. A forum full of sycophants is pretty much useless.

I'll still be posting here. Whether I post on both depends on how good the official forums turn out.
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#56 Jan 23 2011 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Quote:
Official forums could be good, or they could start to resemble the official US Playstation forums. I feel braincells die every time I visit those. They're heavily moderated and there is very little in the way of free thinking allowed.
I've never visited the PS forums so I can't really judge. What sort of things are moderated like this? I've only been on a handful of official forums and only one to date really comes down hard on posts (I'm looking at you, Perfect World forum with your "do not mention rival MMO games" rule!).

Any examples of the sort of extreme moderation that official forums get up to?


The Old Republic forums are a pretty disgusting example of over moderation. I used to be a regular until their mods drove me away. That's why I've always been a fan of ZAM. I don't like being treated like a school child. Keep in mind I say this having only been hired on in September, and having been a member of ZAM since August 2004.

Here is a small list of words you aren't allowed to say in the SWTOR forums:
**** pron pornography wtf ***. Sorry to put everyone's delicate psyche though such terror (or, at least, that's the way they must feel about such terrible words).

On top of that, they actually moderate "rudeness", using the same delicateness they use for their auto-word filter. Thanks, but no thanks.



you dont know overmoderation til youve seen Lego Universes forums, every post has to be aproved to even show
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#57 Jan 23 2011 at 6:35 PM Rating: Decent
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In the long run, who really cares if you are rated "up" or "down" for voicing your opinion. Like they say, opinions are like buttholes, everybody has one. Not gonna ruin my day if a few people on a public forum disagree with what I said or think I am a loser.
#58 Jan 23 2011 at 6:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Ravashack wrote:
Official Forums are a kind of a mixed bag.

Everyone (in the US at least) expects them now out of MMOs and it's really convenient for the company to communicate things...

But man, I don't want to imagine the amount of sewage the moderators would have to wade through and clean up on a daily basis on an official board.



Yea, but it's 2011. Hire two people to take two shifts at minimum wage to moderate the forums. For a company with the cajones such as SE, I don't really see it being too big of a deal to have a super clean forum for players to post.
#59nick2412, Posted: Jan 23 2011 at 10:01 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ... Square Enix panic button Ftw.. first caving in to demands for an AH.. now caving in to demands for a fan forum.. SUPER DUPER!
#60 Jan 23 2011 at 10:31 PM Rating: Good
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nick2412 wrote:
... Square Enix panic button Ftw.. first caving in to demands for an AH.. now caving in to demands for a fan forum.. SUPER DUPER!

I am here because some stupid FFXIV fanbois/whiteknight thought it would be funny to troll on the Rift forum..


Go back to the Rift forum, nobody will be upset.
#61 Jan 24 2011 at 2:00 AM Rating: Good
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Karma works fine. You generally have to be a pretty lousy poster to not make scholar. Getting Sage/Guru is certainly a matter of saying mostly the right things and rarely voicing unpopular opinions, but that's only reason to not care about Sage/Guru. They don't come with any added benefits anyway.

I certainly have made no effort to be well-liked, and despite people actively karma-bombing me for extended periods of time, still scholar.

Sub-default, default, and scholar work fine. Too many moderated forums fall to the mercy of their moderators' whims. Pretty much the only well-moderated forums I've ever seen were very lightly moderated anyway, at which point you may as well just implement a karma system.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#62 Jan 24 2011 at 2:20 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Too many moderated forums fall to the mercy of their moderators' whims.


So a better method is to let the forums fall to the mercy of the posters?
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#63 Jan 24 2011 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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The beta forums were a **** fest, if the official forums are anything close I won't be using them.
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#64 Jan 24 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Karma works fine. You generally have to be a pretty lousy poster to not make scholar. Getting Sage/Guru is certainly a matter of saying mostly the right things and rarely voicing unpopular opinions, but that's only reason to not care about Sage/Guru. They don't come with any added benefits anyway.

I certainly have made no effort to be well-liked, and despite people actively karma-bombing me for extended periods of time, still scholar.

Sub-default, default, and scholar work fine. Too many moderated forums fall to the mercy of their moderators' whims. Pretty much the only well-moderated forums I've ever seen were very lightly moderated anyway, at which point you may as well just implement a karma system.


There are three issues with karma, as I see it

The first is that it's effect over time is diminished. Half of the time, whatever you are by post 100 (Guru/Sage/Scholar/Nothing) is what you'll be forever. 95% of the time, by post 1000, it's pretty much set in stone. No amount of ratedowns will ever drop me to Scholar and no amount of rateups will ever raise me to Guru, short of admin intervention or an army of ratebots, the former of which will not happen and the latter of which would result in someone getting a nasty talking to.

The second is that a lot of people use it less as a "Green = Funny/Helpful/Informative, Red = Trolling/Flaming/Spamming" and use it more of a "Green = I agree, Red = I disagree" or even "Green = I like this poster, Red = I don't like this poster" or more commonly "Red = I don't like what you have to say but I can't disprove you and/or the fact that you won't agree with me is ******* me off". It's not meant to be used that way. Most forums with user moderation are strictly a report feature (which we -also- have here) and reporting a post requires you to select a reason from a drop down list, e.g. flaming, spam, posting personal information, etc.

The third, and some may disagree with me on this, is that the current rating system does not require anything other than the click of a button to rate. You aren't required to post in a topic or reply to a poster before you can rate them up/down, and you can rate any amount of posts by the user up/down for any or no reason at all. Don't like black mages? Rate me down for my avatar. Think my sig is funny? Rate me up regardless of what the post says. Don't like official forums? Rate down every single user in this thread regardless of who they are or what they said. Someone mentioned they own a PS3 and you prefer 360? Rate down every post of theirs that you can find in every forum. There's no accountability or limit to how much you can rate someone down.

I'm well aware that I have a couple people who like to rate my posts down regardless of content and a couple who like to rate them up regardless of content. My gripes with the karma system are not because I care about my karma (although I won't lie; I'd like to get Guru one day. Will never happen though) but because it has the workings of being a good form of user self-moderation that ends up turning into a popularity contest.

There are a couple alternatives I like, such as the ability to report individual posts, the removal of anonymous rate-ups/rate-downs, there are several options for user rating systems that are less prone to abuse.

Overmoderation is a bad thing, but so is no moderation at all. The best solution is to moderate... in moderation.
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#65 Jan 24 2011 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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TheRealDestian wrote:
The ZAM forums unfortunately tend to generate a "hive mind mentality" via the karma system. Players who post a suggestion that others disagree with will have their post sub-defaulted in seconds with no actual counter-argument appearing in the thread as to why they don't like it. In the end, it encourages people to not post any dissenting opinions, which is the exact OPPOSITE of what this game needs right now.
I think this happens less than you assume. What I tend to notice is that bad arguments get rated down quickly into oblivion but well-developed opposing ideas fair much better.
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#66 Jan 24 2011 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I hope that these official forums are nothing like the beta forums were.
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#67 Jan 25 2011 at 1:35 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So a better method is to let the forums fall to the mercy of the posters?


Yep. Better to be judged democratically than autocratically.

@Mik: those are valid criticisms, and nothing I'm not familiar with, trust me; however, they don't really affect the bottom line. Yeah, it'd be nice if my name were green or red, but it will never budge. However, it's also hella easy to get and keep scholar if you even remotely deserve the ability to rate. Few people who are generally constructive don't get it, and while a fair number of people who aren't generally constructive do get it, they can't do much damage to the community. Their individual posts can still be subdefaulted easily enough if they spam or troll. While it may suck to know that people are rarely rated as the system intends, and your karma doesn't portray what it should be, looking at the utilitarian end of the system, it works.

Nothing about the karma system sucks nearly as badly as having a small group of people with the unchecked ability to ban you if you cross them. Then on the other end, you have a bunch of ***-kissers that will always support their decision.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#68 Jan 25 2011 at 4:06 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Official forums could be good, or they could start to resemble the official US Playstation forums. I feel braincells die every time I visit those. They're heavily moderated and there is very little in the way of free thinking allowed.

I know my opinions are biased, but they could either be a really good thing, or a really bad thing. We'll just have to wait and see. Either way, I think Zam will still be a good home for a lot of people, there are some great posters here that I would be sad to see leave.


I'd rather carve designs into my eyeballs with a spork than go to the Playstation forums.
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#69cornyboob, Posted: Jan 25 2011 at 9:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Lol you are worse person then me.
#70 Jan 25 2011 at 10:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
No amount of ratedowns will ever drop me to Scholar and no amount of rateups will ever raise me to Guru, short of admin intervention or an army of ratebots, the former of which will not happen and the latter of which would result in someone getting a nasty talking to.


Not entirely true. Gbaji used to be sage Smiley: tongue
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#71 Jan 25 2011 at 10:18 PM Rating: Good
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Not entirely true. Gbaji used to be sage


System working as intended.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#72 Jan 25 2011 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Not entirely true. Gbaji used to be sage


System working as intended.


This.
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Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
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#73 Jan 26 2011 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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TheRealDestian wrote:
SE needs feedback. They need to know what players don't like about the game because that's the only way they're ever going to make it better. The ZAM forums are just too full of people who will latch onto something sub-par and claim they love it just to feel like an individual.

Actually, the hive mentality is the other way around. Most people who say they find the game enjoyable tend to get rated down more often and berated as being "fanboys" as opposed to those who complain about every single aspect of the game just for the sake of complaining.
#74 Jan 26 2011 at 12:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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I just hate seeing myself (or anyone for that matter) rated down just because someone didn't like what I said.
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#75 Jan 26 2011 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Do you think that suggestions will have a better chance of getting consideration on the official forum?
#76 Jan 29 2011 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
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RufuSwho wrote:
Do you think that suggestions will have a better chance of getting consideration on the official forum?


A hundred times, yes.

Back when I played WoW, a few of my suggestions on those forums made it into the game. Same with the Valve forums.

I've no doubt that direct communication with the devs will help in getting suggestions considered.
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#77 Jan 29 2011 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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Mitsuuko wrote:
Forums in general are elitist in nature... All you can do is suppress the elitism the best you can with proper community managers and admins.


Admins ranked ★★A★★, who post in threads and can't be rated down... now there's a counter to elitism. XD

edit: zomg, zomg, 1337 posts!

Edited, Jan 29th 2011 1:56pm by KaneKitty
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#78 Jan 29 2011 at 3:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Not entirely true. Gbaji used to be sage


System working as intended.


This.


I never said this was a break in the system, just that you aren't safe just because you have a high post count.

Also, would you rather have admins who were actively discussing the game, or never posting at all? I don't see what the big deal is about being able to rate admins up and down. Many of the things we have to do around here make us natural targets for retaliation.
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#79 Jan 29 2011 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Not entirely true. Gbaji used to be sage


System working as intended.


This.


I never said this was a break in the system, just that you aren't safe just because you have a high post count.

Also, would you rather have admins who were actively discussing the game, or never posting at all? I don't see what the big deal is about being able to rate admins up and down. Many of the things we have to do around here make us natural targets for retaliation.


Two things:

1) When I said "This" I was referring to the fact that Gbaji actually managed to get enough ratedowns to be desaged with a high post count. That in itself is pretty impressive, in a weird way.

2) Of course I'd like to see admins actively discussing the game. The funny thing though, I'd think, since admins can see who is rating posts, would be if you COULD rate admins up and down. I'd be interested to see someone try to karma camp an admin. Hilarity would ensue.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#80 Jan 30 2011 at 12:11 AM Rating: Good
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@Osarian

Yeah, official forums are almost always either over-moderated or lacking moderation completely.
I remember back when WOW was having tons of issues with player-held events and they just perma-banned everyone on the forums who ever mentioned an event and even suspended entire zones in game just for standing there. Luckily, SE has a history of none of these, even after 4 MMORPGS being made under their wing.
And then there's forums in many free to plays which get 1 paid mod and lots of "player mods..."
#81 Jan 30 2011 at 1:22 AM Rating: Default
ZOMG I'VE BEEN BOMBED!!!
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