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The FFXIV NGE is ComingFollow

#52 Jan 21 2011 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Guess you guys missed this one.
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#53 Jan 21 2011 at 5:22 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
airspirit wrote:
Big changes are coming, I guarantee it.


Screenshot


I feel dirty for posting Naruto though.


Lol its both so wonderful and so bad at the same time. I'm not sure if I should hate you or love you atm.
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#54 Jan 21 2011 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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EDIT: For those of you wondering:

NGE: New Game Enhancements.

Edited, Jan 21st 2011 6:28pm by KPBeta
#55 Jan 21 2011 at 5:43 PM Rating: Default
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Speeral wrote:

Even if the naming of the current classes changes this would be easily done for the DoW, but how would you rename the DoM? Look at Conj its whm and blm pushed into one class . . . Thaum is bloodmage and RDM in one class . . .
for the class system to be modified that much just for those two classes would mean almost to break them up into four separate classes and would put a lot of players out who enjoyed or do enjoy being healer and nuker at once from a conj perspective or a debuff/dot and blood tank/heal in the case for thaum.


This is the money quote right here. I've been having a problem putting to words why I don't think they could just rename and tweak the classes and this here is why. If they tried to do it it wouldn't be anything like what the player had leveled to that point. If they tried to tweak the current jobs into FF staples it would be like taking a character from a game like WoW, deleting it, rerolling it as a different but somewhat similar class with all the same physical traits and gear, and just giving it free levels.

For WoW players it would be like logging out one day as a level 80 Warrior and logging in the next as a level 80 Paladin. Sure, they both can use swords and shields and they both wear heavy armor but they aren't the same job. Imagine having a R50 Gladiator and logging out, then logging in the next day to a R50 Paladin that plays and handles fundamentally different than what you have previously played. Imagine them stripping your group buffs from your lancer and suddenly (inexplicably) you can jump. Imagine your Conjurer logging in to find that it is now a WHM (or a BLM for those that like to heal). If they split Conjurer into BLM and WHM, would someone that was a R50 CON be given both a 50 BLM and 50 WHM job?

They might as well just wipe the server and give people a free R50 character ticket if that is what they have planned. Given how the armory system is set up, I would be highly surprised if they didn't just take what they have now and use it as a stepping stone to the classic FF-style content.

Is there anyone here that wouldn't be horrifically angry if they were to log in and find their character fundamentally changed? I just can't see it.
#56 Jan 21 2011 at 5:48 PM Rating: Good
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airspirit wrote:


Is there anyone here that wouldn't be horrifically angry if they were to log in and find their character fundamentally changed? I just can't see it.



I would not be angry, in fact I would welcome it. I never had a connection to my character. PUG was my THF.

Also if there is an entire new game to be played from the beginning, I'd welcome it even more.


#57 Jan 21 2011 at 6:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Same I really don't have that connection I would welcome the change the game been out like a few month's so let it be done now!
#58 Jan 21 2011 at 6:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Suggestion to make everyone happy: Leave the names the way they are, add new "Specialist" classes with the traditional names.
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#59 Jan 21 2011 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for the Load stone breakdown Airspirit using a token to log there make that site a chore to look at casually and Mikhalia dorkly bits link made this a fine happy friday at least.... Smashing board.Smiley: laugh
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#60 Jan 21 2011 at 7:04 PM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Suggestion to make everyone happy: Leave the names the way they are, add new "Specialist" classes with the traditional names.


i think this approach has possibilities

Gladiator
paladin
warrior
dark knight
etc

Pugilist
monk
samurai
ninja

Lancer
dragoon
ummmmmmmmm

Marauder
thief
corsair
bard
dancer

Archer
beastmaster?

not sure how to split up mage classes, can be arbitrary i guess.

hmmm starting to think maybe their best bet really is just rename existing classes plus add a bunch more. but i'm probably just missing something, not being a game designer and all
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#61 Jan 21 2011 at 7:28 PM Rating: Good
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@OP: None of the stuff you posted requires an NGE...not even in the slightest.

They want to make classes more "unique"? Just implement things that makes them special and make it "Requires (put classname here)"...like the MP Regen skills of THM and CON.

They want more content...how does this even relate to NGE?...

They want to introduce classic FF jobs? Did you even read the letter? They think about changing the names of the CURRENT classes back to FFXI class names...not making new ones.

They want to change how levels and ranks work? How does this require a NGE? Just change the mechanic of DMG mitigation caused through ranks, or alter how you get stat points, instead of getting them through Physical levels etc...this is merely changing programm code, not NGEing...

They are looking to change skill? Just the same as I noted in my first answer.

Seriously...nothing they want to change/alter requires any kind of NGE...not even nearly...so get your facts straight.
#62 Jan 21 2011 at 9:47 PM Rating: Decent
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airspirit wrote:
Speeral wrote:

Even if the naming of the current classes changes this would be easily done for the DoW, but how would you rename the DoM? Look at Conj its whm and blm pushed into one class . . . Thaum is bloodmage and RDM in one class . . .
for the class system to be modified that much just for those two classes would mean almost to break them up into four separate classes and would put a lot of players out who enjoyed or do enjoy being healer and nuker at once from a conj perspective or a debuff/dot and blood tank/heal in the case for thaum.


This is the money quote right here. I've been having a problem putting to words why I don't think they could just rename and tweak the classes and this here is why. If they tried to do it it wouldn't be anything like what the player had leveled to that point. If they tried to tweak the current jobs into FF staples it would be like taking a character from a game like WoW, deleting it, rerolling it as a different but somewhat similar class with all the same physical traits and gear, and just giving it free levels.

For WoW players it would be like logging out one day as a level 80 Warrior and logging in the next as a level 80 Paladin. Sure, they both can use swords and shields and they both wear heavy armor but they aren't the same job. Imagine having a R50 Gladiator and logging out, then logging in the next day to a R50 Paladin that plays and handles fundamentally different than what you have previously played. Imagine them stripping your group buffs from your lancer and suddenly (inexplicably) you can jump. Imagine your Conjurer logging in to find that it is now a WHM (or a BLM for those that like to heal). If they split Conjurer into BLM and WHM, would someone that was a R50 CON be given both a 50 BLM and 50 WHM job?

They might as well just wipe the server and give people a free R50 character ticket if that is what they have planned. Given how the armory system is set up, I would be highly surprised if they didn't just take what they have now and use it as a stepping stone to the classic FF-style content.

Is there anyone here that wouldn't be horrifically angry if they were to log in and find their character fundamentally changed? I just can't see it.



i dont think they are going to change something like this in one day, before they do things like this, they will have polls for the comunity to say what they want.

so dont worry about ro get up one day and find your war became a pld
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#63 Jan 21 2011 at 9:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah making the existing classes Archetypes and adding Class Tree branches, like you can specialize at certain levels would be cool.


EQ2 did something kinda cool at first, they got rid of it but you used to start off like this:

Level 1 Commoner -
Level 3 Fighter
Level 10 Crusader
Level 20 Paladin

(With each tier having different options but ending in 24 different classes)

I'd be ok if they added some class branches or something. Even if it meant we got Level Refunds (Like if your a rank 50 gladiator, you delevel to 20, then have 30 levels you can assign in classes that branch off marauder, or continue in marauder).

Or, even if it's not branched off, but you unlock the classes from the Guilds via Quests, like you do Gladiator guild quests to unlock Paladin, and Marauder to unlock Dark Knight and Warrior, and Lancer to unlock Dragoon, Pugilist to unlock Monk and Thief, etc.

(btw try typing l-o-l-d-r-g without the - lol)

Quote:
Conj its whm and blm pushed into one class . . . Thaum is bloodmage and RDM in one class . . .


Conj is Scholar, Thm is Red Mage. Simple enough isn't it?

Edited, Jan 21st 2011 10:55pm by Eadieni
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#64 Jan 21 2011 at 10:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Eadieni wrote:
Conj is Scholar


I get the impression that Conj is more of a BLM, with the WHM spells being tacked on. Most of it's spells are either from the BLM spell list or ideal for dealing damage as opposed to healing. They should just remove those spells from the Conjurer, put them on a new White Mage class, and rename the Conjurer to Black Mage. Take Banish and some of the other old WHM spells off of Thaumaturge as well and give it to the new WHM class, and rename Thaumaturge to Red Mage. Suddenly, you have three DoMs instead of two, each with a distinct identity. The only thing left to do at that point is flesh out the White Mage a bit more so that it's abilities aren't so sparse from cannibalizing its sister classes.
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Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#65 Jan 21 2011 at 10:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quanta wrote:
Eadieni wrote:
Conj is Scholar


I get the impression that Conj is more of a BLM, with the WHM spells being tacked on. Most of it's spells are either from the BLM spell list or ideal for dealing damage as opposed to healing. They should just remove those spells from the Conjurer, put them on a new White Mage class, and rename the Conjurer to Black Mage. Take Banish and some of the other old WHM spells off of Thaumaturge as well and give it to the new WHM class, and rename Thaumaturge to Red Mage. Suddenly, you have three DoMs instead of two, each with a distinct identity. The only thing left to do at that point is flesh out the White Mage a bit more so that it's abilities aren't so sparse from cannibalizing its sister classes.


While I'm personally indifferent about changing class names, I really don't want FFXIV classes to become carbon copies of FFXI classes. Yes, being different just to be different is bad, but so is being the same just for the sake of being the same. I liked that FFXIV jobs were all functionally different than FFXI jobs. Doing what you suggest is literally just transferring FFXI WHM, BLM, and RDM into FFXIV.

Using traditional names is fine. But please, don't give us a WHM that uses cures, protect, shell, and banish; a BLM with stone, fire, aero, water; a RDM with blind, paralyze, slow, etc. etc.

FFXIV jobs need to become more differentiable amongst themselves, but there's more ways to do that than to copy FFXI jobs. I don't really care if the names are the same, just so they play differently.
#66 Jan 21 2011 at 11:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
While I'm personally indifferent about changing class names, I really don't want FFXIV classes to become carbon copies of FFXI classes. Yes, being different just to be different is bad, but so is being the same just for the sake of being the same. I liked that FFXIV jobs were all functionally different than FFXI jobs. Doing what you suggest is literally just transferring FFXI WHM, BLM, and RDM into FFXIV.

Using traditional names is fine. But please, don't give us a WHM that uses cures, protect, shell, and banish; a BLM with stone, fire, aero, water; a RDM with blind, paralyze, slow, etc. etc.

FFXIV jobs need to become more differentiable amongst themselves, but there's more ways to do that than to copy FFXI jobs. I don't really care if the names are the same, just so they play differently.


Giving the classes the same names and ability lists doesn't translate directly to them playing the same as their counterparts in the other online game; it's all in how the class is designed to use those abilities. All I propose is to bring the game's classes into line with the iconic classes of the series, so the names aren't just cosmetic, but actually fit their iconic status. That means that Black Mages cast nukes and White Mages cast healing spells; how they go about it is up to the designers.
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#67 Jan 21 2011 at 11:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quanta wrote:

Giving the classes the same names and ability lists doesn't translate directly to them playing the same as their counterparts in the other online game; it's all in how the class is designed to use those abilities. All I propose is to bring the game's classes into line with the iconic classes of the series, so the names aren't just cosmetic, but actually fit their iconic status. That means that Black Mages cast nukes and White Mages cast healing spells; how they go about it is up to the designers.


The problem is FFXI pretty much nailed all the iconic Final Fantasy jobs. I challenge you to describe how a "White Mage" could main-heal a party in a way significantly different than in FFXI while still being a "White Mage".

I'm not saying it can't be done, only that it seems more trouble than it's worth. What else would a paladin be besides a heavy armor wearing, sword/shield bearing, white magic utilizing tank? So he gets Cure 2 at a different level in FFXIV than in FFXI? Maybe rename a few job skills? Gets Provoke natively? I wouldn't call that "new". What would a Black mage be besides a cloth wearing, staff wielding, elemental caster? Again, does he just learn spells at different levels in FFXIV than in FFXI?

Maybe it's just me being unimaginative, but I don't see how SE could design the classic Final Fantasy jobs in FFXIV while still being functionally different than they were in FFXI.
#68 Jan 21 2011 at 11:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Llester wrote:
KristoFurwalken wrote:
I wouldn't mind renaming Pugilist to Monk just so I don't have to hear people mispronounce the word Pugilist anymore.


THIS x 1 bazillion.

it really annoyed me to watch a certain host from a certain XIV themed podcast that is now cancelled, mispronounce that word. I mean...come on. Don't you like...read books and stuff?


Yes. So hard.

As a total loser who studied latin till she failed it in second year - this hurt me so much.
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#69 Jan 21 2011 at 11:29 PM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Quanta wrote:
Eadieni wrote:
Conj is Scholar


I get the impression that Conj is more of a BLM, with the WHM spells being tacked on. Most of it's spells are either from the BLM spell list or ideal for dealing damage as opposed to healing. They should just remove those spells from the Conjurer, put them on a new White Mage class, and rename the Conjurer to Black Mage. Take Banish and some of the other old WHM spells off of Thaumaturge as well and give it to the new WHM class, and rename Thaumaturge to Red Mage. Suddenly, you have three DoMs instead of two, each with a distinct identity. The only thing left to do at that point is flesh out the White Mage a bit more so that it's abilities aren't so sparse from cannibalizing its sister classes.


While I'm personally indifferent about changing class names, I really don't want FFXIV classes to become carbon copies of FFXI classes. Yes, being different just to be different is bad, but so is being the same just for the sake of being the same. I liked that FFXIV jobs were all functionally different than FFXI jobs. Doing what you suggest is literally just transferring FFXI WHM, BLM, and RDM into FFXIV.

Using traditional names is fine. But please, don't give us a WHM that uses cures, protect, shell, and banish; a BLM with stone, fire, aero, water; a RDM with blind, paralyze, slow, etc. etc.

FFXIV jobs need to become more differentiable amongst themselves, but there's more ways to do that than to copy FFXI jobs. I don't really care if the names are the same, just so they play differently.


what they can do instead of just renaming the classes, is officially renaming the schools. Cures, protects, banish, dia would count as white magic, be listed in the white magic tab. Elemental's under black magic. Some debuffs and such be listed under RDM. You would still learn them through con/thurm, but you could also deliberately only equip black magic if you wanted.

then they could change affinities from classes to schools. Similar stuff could be used for melee, dividing things into WSs, tricks, defences, or something along those lines.
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#70 Jan 21 2011 at 11:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Maybe it's just me being unimaginative, but I don't see how SE could design the classic Final Fantasy jobs in FFXIV while still being functionally different than they were in FFXI.


Well, my example would be Red Mage. Since they're pegged as the enfeebling class, why not tie their damage to it? A Red Mage could load up a target with Paralyze/Slow/Bio/etc. and then have a few specialized nukes that deal damage based on the number of enfeebling effects on the target, and perhaps one super-nuke that deals huge damage for each effect and then consumes them, which starts the rotation over. Then the RDM rotation becomes something like "Throw up enfeebles, cast a few nukes, cast super nuke, repeat".

Or how about BLM? They get all their elemental spells at the same level in FFXIV. The BLM rotation could just be cycling through the elemental wheel; each spell in their ******* also makes the target weak against a different element, so the BLM is all about casting spells that follow the cycle. So something like "Water>Lightning>Rasp>Aero>Blizzard>Burn>Water" and so on. BLM spell selection suddenly becomes all about what the enemy is currently weak to. Though maybe that's how it worked in FFXI; I'm not sure.

A WHM's healing spells could work in a similar manner to how the RDM's nukes work in the above example; for each beneficial effect on the target, Cure heals for more than if you were to cast it on its own. However, you set things up so that beneficial effects don't last as long as they did in FFXI, so the WHM suddenly has an interest in keeping Protect and Shell up on a tank, along with other effects, in order for Cure to have its maximum potency.
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Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#71 Jan 21 2011 at 11:43 PM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Quanta wrote:
Eadieni wrote:
Conj is Scholar


I get the impression that Conj is more of a BLM, with the WHM spells being tacked on. Most of it's spells are either from the BLM spell list or ideal for dealing damage as opposed to healing. They should just remove those spells from the Conjurer, put them on a new White Mage class, and rename the Conjurer to Black Mage. Take Banish and some of the other old WHM spells off of Thaumaturge as well and give it to the new WHM class, and rename Thaumaturge to Red Mage. Suddenly, you have three DoMs instead of two, each with a distinct identity. The only thing left to do at that point is flesh out the White Mage a bit more so that it's abilities aren't so sparse from cannibalizing its sister classes.


While I'm personally indifferent about changing class names, I really don't want FFXIV classes to become carbon copies of FFXI classes. Yes, being different just to be different is bad, but so is being the same just for the sake of being the same. I liked that FFXIV jobs were all functionally different than FFXI jobs. Doing what you suggest is literally just transferring FFXI WHM, BLM, and RDM into FFXIV.

Using traditional names is fine. But please, don't give us a WHM that uses cures, protect, shell, and banish; a BLM with stone, fire, aero, water; a RDM with blind, paralyze, slow, etc. etc.

FFXIV jobs need to become more differentiable amongst themselves, but there's more ways to do that than to copy FFXI jobs. I don't really care if the names are the same, just so they play differently.


Honestly I would be sad if they changed to the whole whm, rdm, blm stuff...

I mean I know people don't feel classes are defined enough - but why is it that I like playing THM so much better than CON? I can put all the same abilities on the bar pretty much... but I don't... the AOE styles are a big part of that... also the native spells DO work better than non-native. Plus THM has badass spells. I do usually equip one elemental nuke, cure II and some buffs but for the most part I am all kitted out as a THM and it does feel significantly different than CON.

I would be really sad if I lost THM. I like it, I like the name, I like the abilities.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#72 Jan 22 2011 at 12:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Quanta wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
Maybe it's just me being unimaginative, but I don't see how SE could design the classic Final Fantasy jobs in FFXIV while still being functionally different than they were in FFXI.


Well, my example would be Red Mage. Since they're pegged as the enfeebling class, why not tie their damage to it? A Red Mage could load up a target with Paralyze/Slow/Bio/etc. and then have a few specialized nukes that deal damage based on the number of enfeebling effects on the target, and perhaps one super-nuke that deals huge damage for each effect and then consumes them, which starts the rotation over. Then the RDM rotation becomes something like "Throw up enfeebles, cast a few nukes, cast super nuke, repeat".

Or how about BLM? They get all their elemental spells at the same level in FFXIV. The BLM rotation could just be cycling through the elemental wheel; each spell in their ******* also makes the target weak against a different element, so the BLM is all about casting spells that follow the cycle. So something like "Water>Lightning>Rasp>Aero>Blizzard>Burn>Water" and so on. BLM spell selection suddenly becomes all about what the enemy is currently weak to. Though maybe that's how it worked in FFXI; I'm not sure.

A WHM's healing spells could work in a similar manner to how the RDM's nukes work in the above example; for each beneficial effect on the target, Cure heals for more than if you were to cast it on its own. However, you set things up so that beneficial effects don't last as long as they did in FFXI, so the WHM suddenly has an interest in keeping Protect and Shell up on a tank, along with other effects, in order for Cure to have its maximum potency.


I get how that's technically "different" than in FFXI, but the jobs play exactly the same. RDM keeps enfeebles active; WHM keeps protect/shell active while healing; BLM nukes acording to mob weakness,... You can't make the iconic jobs play differently without deviating from the "iconic-ness" of the job. That's why they're iconic.

Again, I'm cool with renaming the jobs, they're a bit abstract. But, currently, to use the iconic names like White/Black/Red mage, Paladin, Thief, etc. just invites FFXI-2 mechanics. To use FFXI names with new mechanics would require a huge overhaul since the current armory system isn't too different than the subjob system, it just allows for multiple "subjobs". There are other "iconic" names like Fighter, Sorcerer, Mage, Master, so I'm not against traditional names, I just feel it's not worth redesigning the entire job system just for some new names.
#73 Jan 22 2011 at 12:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
I get how that's technically "different" than in FFXI, but the jobs play exactly the same. RDM keeps enfeebles active; WHM keeps protect/shell active while healing; BLM nukes acording to mob weakness,... You can't make the iconic jobs play differently without deviating from the "iconic-ness" of the job. That's why they're iconic.


Is this game really so different that a healing Conjurer isn't going to want to keep up Protect/Shell while healing, or a damage Conjurer isn't going to want to cast the nukes the enemy is weak to, or a Thaumaturge isn't going to want to enfeeble the target? Giving a class a different name doesn't make it magically different from its classic incarnation.

Quote:
Again, I'm cool with renaming the jobs, they're a bit abstract. But, currently, to use the iconic names like White/Black/Red mage, Paladin, Thief, etc. just invites FFXI-2 mechanics. To use FFXI names with new mechanics would require a huge overhaul since the current armory system isn't too different than the subjob system, it just allows for multiple "subjobs". There are other "iconic" names like Fighter, Sorcerer, Mage, Master, so I'm not against traditional names, I just feel it's not worth redesigning the entire job system just for some new names.


I don't think it's inviting FFXI-2 mechanics, mostly because the names themselves are not the exclusive domain of FFXI; they're staples of the entire series. Their explicit absence actually makes FFXIV more of a black sheep than it already is. Like many things in the game's design, their exclusion seems to have been nothing more than an attempt by Tanaka and co. to further distance the game from the franchise it's a part of. I can't say I agree with that direction.
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WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#74 Jan 22 2011 at 12:50 AM Rating: Good
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I would rather have the classes themselves behave in more or less the same way they have in FFXI and other previous games. Same spells, gear etc. What I want is a newer type of battle system and gameplay to use them though. FFXIV was a huge step towards dynamic fast paced combat, that almost feels real time, I would have liked to see them go the extra couple yards and get there.
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#75 Jan 22 2011 at 1:04 AM Rating: Good
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Quanta wrote:
Is this game really so different that a healing Conjurer isn't going to want to keep up Protect/Shell while healing, or a damage Conjurer isn't going to want to cast the nukes the enemy is weak to, or a Thaumaturge isn't going to want to enfeeble the target? Giving a class a different name doesn't make it magically different from its classic incarnation.


Yes, because a Conjurer has a choice between being a healer or an elemental damage dealer, or a bit of both. You could not change Conjurer into a "White mage" without removing the nukes. Likewise, simply changing the name to "white mage" without removing the nukes would damage the image of "White mage". And if you're not going to stick to the traditional definitions, why change the names at all?

Quanta wrote:
I don't think it's inviting FFXI-2 mechanics, mostly because the names themselves are not the exclusive domain of FFXI; they're staples of the entire series. Their explicit absence actually makes FFXIV more of a black sheep than it already is. Like many things in the game's design, their exclusion seems to have been nothing more than an attempt by Tanaka and co. to further distance the game from the franchise it's a part of. I can't say I agree with that direction.


You're right that the names are not staples of FFXI but of the series as a whole. However, FFXI is the only other online Final Fantasy, and an online game must conform to different rules than single player games. Single player Final Fantasy games have a nearly limitless potential for unique gameplay mechanics, but online games need to have certain features to be successful. Again, I'm not saying it isn't possible to completely redesign FFXIV from the ground, but that is what would be required in order to faithfully use traditional names without feeling like FFXI-2. I'm also not saying a complete redesign is a bad thing. However redesigning the game simply to use traditional names is a bad thing. If they do redesign FFXIV from the ground up I hope it's to make this game truly fun rather than a justification to rename Conjurer to White Mage.
#76 Jan 22 2011 at 2:04 AM Rating: Default
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I'm ready for some changes : P
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#77 Jan 22 2011 at 2:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm actually kind of surprised by the changes laid out. A lot of it is pretty tame, small evolutions and adjustments to existing system that is more in line with what I would have expected out of the old team. This suggests to me they're probably still in their ear at this point. I was convinced the new team's first orders of business were going to be total disruptions--completely trashing several mechanics (e.g repair/degradation system, SP/XP system, battle system, equipment requirements), adding an AH, etc... But this list almost reads like a 6 month plan from the old team.
#78 Jan 22 2011 at 2:32 AM Rating: Decent
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I was disappointed when they didn’t used the old class names from FFXI, now am happy that they are going to use it again.
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#79 Jan 22 2011 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
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Quanta wrote:
Eadieni wrote:
Conj is Scholar


I get the impression that Conj is more of a BLM, with the WHM spells being tacked on. Most of it's spells are either from the BLM spell list or ideal for dealing damage as opposed to healing. They should just remove those spells from the Conjurer, put them on a new White Mage class, and rename the Conjurer to Black Mage. Take Banish and some of the other old WHM spells off of Thaumaturge as well and give it to the new WHM class, and rename Thaumaturge to Red Mage. Suddenly, you have three DoMs instead of two, each with a distinct identity. The only thing left to do at that point is flesh out the White Mage a bit more so that it's abilities aren't so sparse from cannibalizing its sister classes.


**** no. I <3 Conj. spells the way they are.

KujaKoF wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
Quanta wrote:
Eadieni wrote:
Conj is Scholar


I get the impression that Conj is more of a BLM, with the WHM spells being tacked on. Most of it's spells are either from the BLM spell list or ideal for dealing damage as opposed to healing. They should just remove those spells from the Conjurer, put them on a new White Mage class, and rename the Conjurer to Black Mage. Take Banish and some of the other old WHM spells off of Thaumaturge as well and give it to the new WHM class, and rename Thaumaturge to Red Mage. Suddenly, you have three DoMs instead of two, each with a distinct identity. The only thing left to do at that point is flesh out the White Mage a bit more so that it's abilities aren't so sparse from cannibalizing its sister classes.


While I'm personally indifferent about changing class names, I really don't want FFXIV classes to become carbon copies of FFXI classes. Yes, being different just to be different is bad, but so is being the same just for the sake of being the same. I liked that FFXIV jobs were all functionally different than FFXI jobs. Doing what you suggest is literally just transferring FFXI WHM, BLM, and RDM into FFXIV.

Using traditional names is fine. But please, don't give us a WHM that uses cures, protect, shell, and banish; a BLM with stone, fire, aero, water; a RDM with blind, paralyze, slow, etc. etc.

FFXIV jobs need to become more differentiable amongst themselves, but there's more ways to do that than to copy FFXI jobs. I don't really care if the names are the same, just so they play differently.


what they can do instead of just renaming the classes, is officially renaming the schools. Cures, protects, banish, dia would count as white magic, be listed in the white magic tab. Elemental's under black magic. Some debuffs and such be listed under RDM. You would still learn them through con/thurm, but you could also deliberately only equip black magic if you wanted.

then they could change affinities from classes to schools. Similar stuff could be used for melee, dividing things into WSs, tricks, defences, or something along those lines.



I'm okay with what she said. I think that should be a more viable option for the mage classes. I like being able to have offensive spells and defensive/curative abilities on my character. I think breaking up the magic into "cateogories" like this are a good idea, however, I WOULD BE ******* if my conj. all of a sudden became a whm with whm spells only. ***** that.
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#80 Jan 22 2011 at 7:48 AM Rating: Decent
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I will stop reading at the begining before i know...


um... What the hells is NGE O.o? Neon Genesis Evangelion?
#81 Jan 22 2011 at 7:55 AM Rating: Good
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1) I try to stay far away from the negative stigma attached to using the acronym NGE. NGE was a mistake in Galaxies because it was an established game, was poorly implemented with lots of bugs, and made everyone Jedi's.

2) FFXIV... well let's face it.. it needs these changes. Galaxies quite honestly did not. Whatever they do, it will not be the terrible experience that was NGE because the game is new and is trying to save it's dwindling playerbase.


Using the term NGE is doing s disservice to what the devs are attempting to do and only hurting the reputation of a game that already has earned a negative reputation. At least wait until implementation before throwing Yoshi-P under the bus

3) I do feel like sweeping changes will / should be made. I feel that the stat allocation system is unnecessarily clunky and complicated. It should be either done away with completely or altered to eliminate physical levels since its really unclear how those stats scale with rank and feels tacked on. The targeting system needs work and party VS party dynamics are way to cumbersome. In FFXI, getting a link was an exciting and potentially deadly experience but one that you felt skilled if you could manage it with sleeps or dual tanking. Here, it's just annoying.
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#82 Jan 22 2011 at 8:05 AM Rating: Good
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EmiyaShirou wrote:
I will stop reading at the begining before i know...


um... What the hells is NGE O.o? Neon Genesis Evangelion?


New Game Enhancement. Referring to an epic update in Star Wars Galaxies that completely overhauled the class and combat systems. The biggest criticisms arose because it was released two years after the initial launch and only two DAYS after the third expansion. While my opinion is that of an outsider, it appears that SOE had a fairly successful niche game, but wanted a piece of the WoW pie, so attempted to drastically simplify the game to attract more users. The most extreme example is that the Jedi class, previously an "end-game" type reward similar to relic weapons in FFXI, became selectable upon character creation.
#83 Jan 22 2011 at 8:10 AM Rating: Decent
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airspirit wrote:

As it stands now there is no way for them to implement job archetypes familiar to final fantasy games and fit it into the current framework. Imagine trying to introduce any kind of bard or minstrel ... would each song be an AP skill? How would you sub that? Would a lancer start stroking the song out on his spear? How would a summoner work? How would a beastmaster type class work? If taming was a skill, why not just tag that skill to a different class? To make a long story short, the current system is an absolute dead-end in expanding the style of play to different classes in any meaningful way and utterly blocks the introduction of thematic elements many people find essential to the concept of a final fantasy game. I think the new development team understands these things, and given that 80% of their polled players basically asked for a NGE it is likely they will provide one to prevent what appears currently to be the inevitable death of the game.


Both examples were in ffxi....

Drg/brd would SING because they could not equip instruments.

/Bst was one of the greatest soloing jobs around. /bst would be able to charm monsters at Even Match to their current BST level.

I agree with the rigidness of jobs in FFXI but honestly I liked that more than this wishy-washy job system where nothing is defined. I enjoyed finding creative ways to accomplish goals solo or in small groups. I loved Cor/Whm main healing my melee party in the CoP mammets fight while our whm kept the pld alive as he kited the other mammets and we peeled them off.

I loved puppetmaster. I can't mention that enough. It is a great example of a job with a rigid definition but oozing with flexibility. I could tank while my puppet melees, or ranged attacks. He could tank (though not as well) or he could drop endless cure V's on my party with infinite mp. Then I could go solo the badest of the bad nms as long as they were kiteable and susceptable to my 2k+ Aero V's.

Basically, SE, can I have pup back?
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#84 Jan 22 2011 at 9:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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I am definately OK with major changes, but its not like I want it to be FFXI-2. However, FFXI got a lot of things right. I want party dynamics, and FFXIV just doesnt have that. So I definately think more defined roles are a way to go. Defined roles have the ability to make parties more fun, because people have to work together to accomplish a goal. In all honesty, I feel no connection to my character. There is nothing really besides my weapon that sets me apart from others. They offered freedom with these new classes, but they went way too far with it. Everybody has the potential to make all-in-one classes, that amounts to practically no uniqueness. And if I can design a character that can do it all, then why wouldn't I just solo? I've said this before, but I'll say it again: There is a difference between a group of players working together in a dependent and coordinated manner to defeat an enemy, and a group of people that just happen to be beating on the same target. So I don't care if its remaking the classes into classic FF jobs, or leaving the current classes alone but adding in the classic jobs, or even leaving the current classes as they are but adding in exclusive abilities that give them clearly defined roles, but something like this has to be done.

As for the battle system, I think they need to do one of two things. Either scale it back to a much slower pace (i.e. FFXI), or speed it up with a more action paced feel (i.e. Vindictus or TERA). This in between crap just feels weird. The problem is that they tried to please everyone by meeting in the middle. Some people wanted a combat pace more like FFXI and others wanted it more like Vindictus. And honestly I'd have been OK with either extreme, but where it is now feels very half-assed to me. Hopefully they can make some positive changes to the battle system to counter this situation.


P.S. Yoshi-P, I am still waiting for that ridiculous repair/durability system to either get significant changes or to just go away........ forever and ever.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2011 10:59am by AmsaimSutavarg
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#85 Jan 22 2011 at 10:31 AM Rating: Decent
WOW they are considering changing the stupid class names to the ones from previous FF. The **** with marauder, pugilist and Thaumaturge we want Warrior, Paladin, Monk, Thief, Red Mage, Black Mage and White Mages. **** just import all classes from FFXI how could you go wrong with that?

Who wouldn't want to reborn in this game as their retired character in FFXI? I would like to have my Red Mage in FFXIV thats for sure.
#86 Jan 22 2011 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
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seems like the only issues people have with the class names are coming from "how would the mages be?"...which of course there is only 2. The DoWs are pretty self explanatory, with at most a couple of them having some slight adjustments. As for what they should do? im not sure myself, but it will be interesting to see what they came up with...i think i will leave it to them to do whats right (no amount of ideas or conflicting yes/no thoughts will suddenly change that)

I think im going to just ride it out and see what they do before i judge right away, i mean they clearly want to change a lot, including battle and classes, so to sit here and say something wont work is pointless knowing it may be quite different soon. After the changes have been made, then il come up with something, but to say "CON can't be this!" right now is almost pointless, because for all we know CON might be changed quite a bit in 3-6 months. it was a resounding YES to big changes so lets see what they do first.
#87 Jan 22 2011 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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I do not want FFXI-2. For too long the XI job system was so rigid that attempting to do anything outside of your job's intended role was simply impossible. This led to problems later when most of the games content no longer NEEDED the particular niche that your job fufilled, and thus many players were tossed off to the side. In fact, because XI had so many jobs that fulfilled very similar roles it was often the case were a vast majority of jobs were simply considered worthless because another job could fill the ONE role they shared better. This resulted in a lot of people using the same job because, after all, why be a monk when a ranger deals better damage? Why be a ranger when a ninja does better damage? Why be a ninja when a warrior does better damage? Why be a Tank when nobody needs you to tank? Why be a healer when nobody needs to be healed? Many jobs were either not played, or left to rot in Jueno.

This was such a major complaint of FFXI for so long that many jobs *had* to eventually be changed to be more fluid in their nature and thus capable of filling in for many situations so that nobody could claim to do everything they do but better. Samurai was given tanking abilities. Paladin was given better damage abilities. Many of the new jobs offered a plethora of party pleasing buff moves that could be easily utilized by anyone. While there is still a lot of dominance over what job/subjob combo is acceptable, I like to think it is a lot less rigid than the game had been for so many years.

I like that FFXIV allows me to take skills from various classes while giving me control over how Attribute Points are distributed because it allows me to make a character specifically tailored to myself. While I would welcome the different classes have more UNIQUE abilities, I do not want them to suddenly be FORCED into only being able to fulfill one role as was the case for so long in FFXI. I would not, for example, like to log on and suddenly find my Gladiator is only capable of tanking, with abilities that are focused only upon tanking, or that my conjurer has been reformatted to only healing and buffing abilities. I certainly don't want to find out that I can no longer place magic I have learned from my Conjurer onto my Gladiator and allocate his Attribute Points so that he can use it effectively.






Edited, Jan 22nd 2011 2:07pm by WarkupoZ
#88 Jan 22 2011 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
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WarkupoZ wrote:
I do not want FFXI-2. For too long the XI job system was so rigid that attempting to do anything outside of your job's intended role was simply impossible. This led to problems later when most of the games content no longer NEEDED the particular niche that your job fufilled, and thus many players were tossed off to the side. In fact, because XI had so many jobs that fulfilled very similar roles it was often the case were a vast majority of jobs were simply considered worthless because another job could fill the ONE role they shared better. This resulted in a lot of people using the same job because, after all, why be a monk when a ranger deals better damage? Why be a ranger when a ninja does better damage? Why be a ninja when a warrior does better damage? Why be a Tank when nobody needs you to tank? Why be a healer when nobody needs to be healed? Many jobs were either not played, or left to rot in Jueno.

This was such a major complaint of FFXI for so long that many jobs *had* to eventually be changed to be more fluid in their nature and thus capable of filling in for many situations so that nobody could claim to do everything they do but better. Samurai was given tanking abilities. Paladin was given better damage abilities. Many of the new jobs offered a plethora of party pleasing buff moves that could be easily utilized by anyone. While there is still a lot of dominance over what job/subjob combo is acceptable, I like to think it is a lot less rigid than the game had been for so many years.

I like that FFXIV allows me to take skills from various classes while giving me control over how Attribute Points are distributed because it allows me to make a character specifically tailored to myself. While I would welcome the different classes have more UNIQUE abilities, I do not want them to suddenly be FORCED into only being able to fulfill one role as was the case for so long in FFXI. I would not, for example, like to log on and suddenly find my Gladiator is only capable of tanking, with abilities that are focused only upon tanking, or that my conjurer has been reformatted to only healing and buffing abilities. I certainly don't want to find out that I can no longer place magic I have learned from my Conjurer onto my Gladiator and allocate his Attribute Points so that he can use it effectively.






Edited, Jan 22nd 2011 2:07pm by WarkupoZ


Sorry but how is this game (group grind wise) not the same thing pretty much? If your a GLD , everyone wants you to tank, if your a con or even THM, everyone wants you to spam heals and toss random buffs (shell/pro), if your anything else your pretty much set to smash the 1 key over and over. Just like FFXI these classes had intentions to do alternative things, like MNK and WAR sub tank, which they could, but most didnt use them. Same here, most people would take GLD to tank any day over a MRD and PUG...because they are just never as good.

Like very MMO on the planet, these jobs, even with the slight pre-set roles they do have, they will fall into the same trappings and this game is no different, no matter what abilitys you set or how you think it might make you a tottaly new role.
#89 Jan 22 2011 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the game is too early for us to be defining roles to classes, especially with the variety of options available to the classes. In FFXI the Paladin tanked because the Paladin really couldn't DO anything else. A gladiator is entirely capable of modifying itself to focus on damage, and a Pugilist or Marauder seems just as likely to be able to tank. That nobody wants to play that way doesn't mean they aren't capable of it.

I also want to add that the DD roll in my gameplay has not felt so simplistic, especially in larger group oriented battles. Because you are often fighting more than one enemy at a time, the DD, if he's smart, will try to maneuver himself to where his damage can be most effective. Whether this is in taking out the enemy fighting the mage that the "tank" can't get, or unleashing an AOE on the three enemies the "tank" is holding. I certainly don't feel like they just smash 1.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2011 2:41pm by WarkupoZ

Edited, Jan 22nd 2011 2:52pm by WarkupoZ
#90 Jan 22 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Default
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I seriously doubt this, nice try tho. Surprised you didnt get karma camped for agrevating the fanboys.

airspirit wrote:
I've been reading the lodestone information and have tried to mash it up with what has previously been said and then read between the lines. It looks like the new development team has some serious stones, and I think they are going to do a full NGE of this game. Given that, the only promise that we have is that they will not do character wipes. How do I think they will pull this off? It is simple, really.

What we know:
- They want more job differentiation
- They want more content
- They are looking at introducing classic FF jobs
- They are looking at changing how levels and ranks work
- They are looking to change skills

There is only one real way to accomplish all this without a character wipe: a full NGE.

What I think will happen is that everything that we are leveling now (aside from hand/land) are simply going to be the FFXIV version of subjobs. These will also be the introductory classes for new players (similar to the six classes in FFXI). When a player gets one of these to a certain level, they will have the option to do an advanced class quest similar to those in FFXI and gain the ability to level an advanced job.

This is where the job system will fundamentally change from where it is now. An advanced job will have a set weapon selection (such as swords, shields, greatswords for paladin) that has no respect to anything except that specific job. Each job will then have either a set amount of AP or one that scales by job level so that they can use these slots to pick and choose skills from their leveled war/magic subjobs to form their own custom subjob for that class.

In doing this there are probably going to be a number of skills that get extremely nerfed (punishing barbs?) or might even disappear altogether (ancient magic would be removed to BLM, etc). They will also undoubtably shorten the SP curve to make leveling the disciple jobs much easier. In doing this it makes the work we currently have in the game meaningful and preperatory for the "next stage", but also allows a customizable job system like in FFXI without the pitfalls that game faced.

The beauty of a system like this is that it corrects the broken subjob system of FFXI in that it doesn't force players to pick one of the "mandatory" subjobs for any given primary (i.e. no more /NIN situations). It also allows them to really differentiate the advanced jobs without having to worry about what that will do with subjob situations (i.e. no more /NIN situations). Having similar skills between the war jobs now allows a player to custom tailor their job to match their personal flavor (circle slash vs. brandish? red lotus vs. trunksplitter?) and keeps player customability high. This system would also fix the current system's inevitable dead-end: how many more weapons can they add in without it becoming little more than a palette swap? Right now there is little difference between the classes, how bad would it be if they added in another half dozen weapons?

This system would be a real coup on their part: they get to NGE the game in a way that doesn't break anything the players have achieved to that point, they get to introduce a tremendous amount of content to the game without a whole lot of deep development time, it meets many of the demands that players have given to date (regarding class differentiation and whatnot), and it is something that the majority of players would probably accept gladly. Furthermore, it allows them to make a massive PR push as if it was an entirely new game ... and good PR from that would help reel in new and prior players to see what all the fuss is about. Without an event like that, this game is probably going to fail: lets not kid ourselves any longer. S-E is bleeding right now keeping its full development team running while the game is seeing low sales and no monthly income.

I suppose the way to tell if this is going to be coming down the pipe would be for them to extend the 1-20 SP curve (ease of leveling) all the way through 50. This massive nerf will probably come a couple months before the NGE hits to keep the current players in the game while they implement the NGE. You'll probably see the PS3 port hit the shelves three months after this riding on the PR wave. Further, my guess is that while it may take, say, level 30 in a disciple job to unlock an advanced job, the advanced jobs will probably start at a higher level (in the 15-20 range) to prevent flooding of newbie zones and they will probably have the same level curve that our current disciple classes have. Even though they will be harder to level in terms of SP, though, they'll be easier to level at each stage since their abilities will be more powerful than the generic war/magic ones and will be much more geared toward party play. Disciple jobs will be easy to level and allow casuals to see endgame, while advanced jobs are more hardcore and fully unlock the game's content.

Other thoughts: the stat allocation will probably be for disciples only (subjobs). The primary jobs almost undoubtably will have set stats. The physical level system will also, accordingly, be for disciples only to assist in leveling those to later support your advanced job(s).

My crystal ball just went dark ... anyone think this scenario is unlikely?

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#91 Jan 22 2011 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
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Let me expand upon what I said a few posts back about role-defined classes. It seems to me some people wouldn't like it because they don't want there classes limited. Who said anything about limiting? I'm just saying that the each class in and of itself should take on a specific role. I love the way FFXIV gives us the abilities to take skills we have learned from other classes and apply them to our current class. I am all for this. I just want each job to be able to excell at one thing, but with the ability to swap in other skills and abilities for different situations. Basically it would just be an upgrade to FFXI job/subjob system. I just dislike the lack of defined roles for each class, not the ability to sub in other skills and abilities. Now I still would like more restriction on the effectiveness of the swapped in skills to like 75% effectiveness. Here is an example: Give me a good tank class (cures, buffs, self and party defensive abilities, enmity abilities), then let me swap in most any abilities I want from other classes. I definately want there to be at least a handful of class-specific only defining skills, so we cant swap in any skills. And as I said before they would be pretty effective, but not 100%, more like 75%. If I need to do more damage, I swap in those abilities. If I need more enfeebs, I swap in those. Etc. Etc.

To be clear there was never any problems with the jobs in FFXI, the problems came from the lack of subjob options. All they needed to do was expand upon the subjob system by doing exactly what they are doing in FFXIV. As for certain jobs becoming useless like in FFXI, there are two things they can do. I like the idea of multiple classes, but they can keep the number relatively low so there are not that many balancing issues. The other thing is they can give classes with similar roles a hook. Damage dealers: one might do more damage, and one does less damage but has some awesome debuffs. The idea here is to make each class attractive to a party. So even if they have similar roles, they won't be clones of eachother, but will still be equally attractive to a party. It will require balancing, but it can be done.

I definately agree that there should be no useless classes. They shouldn't go inventing new classes right and left just for flavor. Perfect example: As much as I like pet jobs, they should never make them unless they are sure they can ballance them so that they will be useful in every situation. Not limited usefulness in endgame like summoner or completely useless in endgame like beastmaster. Its sad but unfortunate. A class should never be made in the first place, if people end up leveling it as their main only to be left out of everything.
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#92 Jan 22 2011 at 5:14 PM Rating: Decent
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airspirit wrote:
Speeral wrote:

Even if the naming of the current classes changes this would be easily done for the DoW, but how would you rename the DoM? Look at Conj its whm and blm pushed into one class . . . Thaum is bloodmage and RDM in one class . . .
for the class system to be modified that much just for those two classes would mean almost to break them up into four separate classes and would put a lot of players out who enjoyed or do enjoy being healer and nuker at once from a conj perspective or a debuff/dot and blood tank/heal in the case for thaum.


This is the money quote right here. I've been having a problem putting to words why I don't think they could just rename and tweak the classes and this here is why. If they tried to do it it wouldn't be anything like what the player had leveled to that point. If they tried to tweak the current jobs into FF staples it would be like taking a character from a game like WoW, deleting it, rerolling it as a different but somewhat similar class with all the same physical traits and gear, and just giving it free levels.

For WoW players it would be like logging out one day as a level 80 Warrior and logging in the next as a level 80 Paladin. Sure, they both can use swords and shields and they both wear heavy armor but they aren't the same job. Imagine having a R50 Gladiator and logging out, then logging in the next day to a R50 Paladin that plays and handles fundamentally different than what you have previously played. Imagine them stripping your group buffs from your lancer and suddenly (inexplicably) you can jump. Imagine your Conjurer logging in to find that it is now a WHM (or a BLM for those that like to heal). If they split Conjurer into BLM and WHM, would someone that was a R50 CON be given both a 50 BLM and 50 WHM job?

They might as well just wipe the server and give people a free R50 character ticket if that is what they have planned. Given how the armory system is set up, I would be highly surprised if they didn't just take what they have now and use it as a stepping stone to the classic FF-style content.

Is there anyone here that wouldn't be horrifically angry if they were to log in and find their character fundamentally changed? I just can't see it.



I wouldn't have a problem with it if they let me choose whether or not I would change my CON to a WHM or a BLM but not both. I wouldn't want them to give me two lvl 50 classes for doing the work of one.
#93 Jan 22 2011 at 5:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
Let me expand upon what I said a few posts back about role-defined classes. It seems to me some people wouldn't like it because they don't want there classes limited. Who said anything about limiting? I'm just saying that the each class in and of itself should take on a specific role. I love the way FFXIV gives us the abilities to take skills we have learned from other classes and apply them to our current class. I am all for this. I just want each job to be able to excell at one thing, but with the ability to swap in other skills and abilities for different situations. Basically it would just be an upgrade to FFXI job/subjob system. I just dislike the lack of defined roles for each class, not the ability to sub in other skills and abilities. Now I still would like more restriction on the effectiveness of the swapped in skills to like 75% effectiveness. Here is an example: Give me a good tank class (cures, buffs, self and party defensive abilities, enmity abilities), then let me swap in most any abilities I want from other classes. I definately want there to be at least a handful of class-specific only defining skills, so we cant swap in any skills. And as I said before they would be pretty effective, but not 100%, more like 75%. If I need to do more damage, I swap in those abilities. If I need more enfeebs, I swap in those. Etc. Etc.

To be clear there was never any problems with the jobs in FFXI, the problems came from the lack of subjob options. All they needed to do was expand upon the subjob system by doing exactly what they are doing in FFXIV. As for certain jobs becoming useless like in FFXI, there are two things they can do. I like the idea of multiple classes, but they can keep the number relatively low so there are not that many balancing issues. The other thing is they can give classes with similar roles a hook. Damage dealers: one might do more damage, and one does less damage but has some awesome debuffs. The idea here is to make each class attractive to a party. So even if they have similar roles, they won't be clones of eachother, but will still be equally attractive to a party. It will require balancing, but it can be done.

I definately agree that there should be no useless classes. They shouldn't go inventing new classes right and left just for flavor. Perfect example: As much as I like pet jobs, they should never make them unless they are sure they can ballance them so that they will be useful in every situation. Not limited usefulness in endgame like summoner or completely useless in endgame like beastmaster. Its sad but unfortunate. A class should never be made in the first place, if people end up leveling it as their main only to be left out of everything.


I agree with you here about subjob options, most of the time you were only getting 2-4 abilities, and often they were useless (ward/circles of protection on drg/sam for example)
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#94 Jan 23 2011 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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52 posts
AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
Let me expand upon what I said a few posts back about role-defined classes. It seems to me some people wouldn't like it because they don't want there classes limited. Who said anything about limiting? I'm just saying that the each class in and of itself should take on a specific role. I love the way FFXIV gives us the abilities to take skills we have learned from other classes and apply them to our current class. I am all for this. I just want each job to be able to excell at one thing, but with the ability to swap in other skills and abilities for different situations. Basically it would just be an upgrade to FFXI job/subjob system. I just dislike the lack of defined roles for each class, not the ability to sub in other skills and abilities. Now I still would like more restriction on the effectiveness of the swapped in skills to like 75% effectiveness. Here is an example: Give me a good tank class (cures, buffs, self and party defensive abilities, enmity abilities), then let me swap in most any abilities I want from other classes. I definately want there to be at least a handful of class-specific only defining skills, so we cant swap in any skills. And as I said before they would be pretty effective, but not 100%, more like 75%. If I need to do more damage, I swap in those abilities. If I need more enfeebs, I swap in those. Etc. Etc.

To be clear there was never any problems with the jobs in FFXI, the problems came from the lack of subjob options. All they needed to do was expand upon the subjob system by doing exactly what they are doing in FFXIV. As for certain jobs becoming useless like in FFXI, there are two things they can do. I like the idea of multiple classes, but they can keep the number relatively low so there are not that many balancing issues. The other thing is they can give classes with similar roles a hook. Damage dealers: one might do more damage, and one does less damage but has some awesome debuffs. The idea here is to make each class attractive to a party. So even if they have similar roles, they won't be clones of eachother, but will still be equally attractive to a party. It will require balancing, but it can be done.

I definately agree that there should be no useless classes. They shouldn't go inventing new classes right and left just for flavor. Perfect example: As much as I like pet jobs, they should never make them unless they are sure they can ballance them so that they will be useful in every situation. Not limited usefulness in endgame like summoner or completely useless in endgame like beastmaster. Its sad but unfortunate. A class should never be made in the first place, if people end up leveling it as their main only to be left out of everything.



Rather than decrease the effectiveness of cross class skills, why not require that they cost more Action Points to equip? While I hardly agree with your sentiment that the main jobs were all "fine" and didn't require many drastic face lifts over the years, I agree that a large part of the problem with subjobs in FFXI is that many of the abilities simply didn't DO anything because there was no way to increase their potency to a level where they could be appropriate for use. I couldn't, for example, suit up as a Paladin, equip Blackmage as my subjob, and start casting Black Magic to any useful degree. About all I could do was warp home to Jueno.

I feel that if you give the classes more defined roles, and then make it more difficult to take cross class skills, the result will be that you can still make your character more suited to your playstyle, but you will also put a greater emphasis on abilities that come with your job. Perhaps -1 AP Cost to primary class skills, and +1 AP Cost to cross skills.




Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 11:14am by WarkupoZ
#95 Jan 23 2011 at 11:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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264 posts
I could get on board with that. My point was to make it so that people cant just go nuts with it and be all-in-one uber gods. So it would be near 100% effectiveness but with a much larger AP requirement could work as well. I would still want there to be those class specific skills that could not be transfered over, but thats about it. In this way, classes could still be well defined by what they excell at through the use of these core skills and abilities.

Another thing I saw someone else talking about, was proper hybrid classes. Thats another thing that bugs me is the strict separation of DoW and DoM. I know you can set your stats how you want, but what I mean is the magic potency/attack power divide on weapons. There should be at least a few of each weapon type that help with a hybrid build. This might mean that the overall attack/potency wouldn't be as high as normal weapons of the same level, but that would be the price you pay for being a hybrid. On the other hand, if they came out with classic FF jobs, some of them would be hybrids by default. Whatever, it just needs to be fixed.
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#96 Jan 23 2011 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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9,526 posts
AmsaimSutavarg wrote:

Another thing I saw someone else talking about, was proper hybrid classes. Thats another thing that bugs me is the strict separation of DoW and DoM. I know you can set your stats how you want, but what I mean is the magic potency/attack power divide on weapons. There should be at least a few of each weapon type that help with a hybrid build. This might mean that the overall attack/potency wouldn't be as high as normal weapons of the same level, but that would be the price you pay for being a hybrid. On the other hand, if they came out with classic FF jobs, some of them would be hybrids by default. Whatever, it just needs to be fixed.


THIS. It is so dumb to be like - here is a system - be what you want! Except you will be gimped if you try to actually use the system! MWAH HA HA!

It would be awesome if they added gear that had proficiencies on it so you could be more effective with some magic without letting classes be overpowered. Like a GLA sword that boosted the effectiveness of fire based magic. So you wouldn't be able to be a good overall nuker as a GLA - but you could unleash some good fire nukes/debuffs.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 11:59am by Olorinus
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#97 Jan 23 2011 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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265 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
AmsaimSutavarg wrote:

Another thing I saw someone else talking about, was proper hybrid classes. Thats another thing that bugs me is the strict separation of DoW and DoM. I know you can set your stats how you want, but what I mean is the magic potency/attack power divide on weapons. There should be at least a few of each weapon type that help with a hybrid build. This might mean that the overall attack/potency wouldn't be as high as normal weapons of the same level, but that would be the price you pay for being a hybrid. On the other hand, if they came out with classic FF jobs, some of them would be hybrids by default. Whatever, it just needs to be fixed.


THIS. It is so dumb to be like - here is a system - be what you want! Except you will be gimped if you try to actually use the system! MWAH HA HA!


Every time i see people say how "well you can just mix stuff and be that class" type of argument...this is what i say. They tried to set the game as a custom class game, but also pre-set you with things like weapons stats (being a huge portion of your effectiveness) HP/MP settings with each class and out of class gimpings and AoE. You can never really make those mixed classes as well as you want (or go out of your archtype almost at all.

its in this middle of the road limbo that doesnt really help. For solo it has parts that work, but for the most part its a mess. Just like they tried to be "hardcore" and "casual" at the same time, they tried to be fully custom and define at the same time...and it dint work at all....like they say, you cant please them all.

The day a game CAN work for everyone, and be both things at once, is the day we have the greats MMO of all time...and noone has even come close yet.
#98 Jan 23 2011 at 4:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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9,997 posts
I hope they don't take away the ability to customize your ability set. That's not even nearly the problem with FFXIV-- one of the few things it does right imo.

The problem isn't that, for example, Conjurer and Thaumaturge can use one another's spells, but that their spells are essentially identical, and so is their role-- they play very similarly.

What any great MMO needs is for each of its classes to play in a unique way, so that the player is not merely unlocking higher levels, abilities, quests, etc., but also experiencing an entirely new way of playing the game. However, if players can amend these classes with other abilities, allowing them to play the same classes in different ways, that's even better.

The problem with XIV is that classes have very few, very shallow differences to begin with.
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