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#1 Jan 21 2011 at 9:24 PM Rating: Excellent
So after reading about the possible changes to classes as well as their names it got me thinking and this in turn led to a rousing discussion with some of my LS mates. We found the renaming of classes to be entirely unnecessary and thought of an alternative route of branching off into specialized classes. Sort of an advanced job, if you will. We sort of followed a FF Tactics scheme for this.

First off is Lancer it could branch off into a Dragoon or as my friend insanely suggested, Choco Knight. Still working out a viable off-shoot to complement this one.

Archer could branch off into a Hunter similar to the WoW version and be able to summon a familiar pet to assist them in battle or branch off into something similar to the Sniper class and have a series of debuffing attacks.

Pugilist could branch off into a Monk and get more abilities that correlate with that type of class or go the Rogue route and have more of the back-attacking and Stealing moves.

Gladiator could branch off into a Paladin type class or more of a melee heavy Swordmaster class with a dazzling variety of sword attacks.

Marauder could branch off into a Buccaneer class with some fancy moves that debuff the enemy or a Berzerker route that focuses more on raw damage.

Conjurer we figured could branch off into more of a White Mage spell set or a Black Mage spell set, we failed however to come up with cool names.

Thaumaturge could branch off more into a Red Mage or even some manner of battle mage or take a different route and be an Elementalist using spells that do lowish elemental damage and enfeebles the enemy

Now as far as the DoL and DoH classes I'm not entirely sure changes for them would be necessary or how they would even implement them.

I'm interested in seeing other peoples ideas and viewpoints as this is just a roughly sketched out idea I am working onSmiley: smile

tl;dr- Don't rename me into a monk, let me become one!


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#2 Jan 21 2011 at 10:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Excellent idea. Let's just hope they get rid of fatigue so we could take full advantage of a feature like this!

Edited, Jan 21st 2011 11:02pm by SuperCancerion
#3 Jan 21 2011 at 10:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd like to see something along those lines implemented, however I don't want to be locked out of the other option once I make my choice.

My favourite part of an MMO is to take a new class and learn to play it as I make my way up the levels. FFXI was especially awesome in that regard because I could do that on a single character. I wouldn't be very interested in leveling say Archer up to 30, and be forced to specialize in into a specific advanced class. I'd prefer that reaching a certain level unlocks 2 new advanced classes, which I am then free to pick up and play from level 1 and on.

Cross-class abilities between Archer, Sniper and Hunter for example, could be less restricted than picking from another group of classes. Either cost less to assign, or be full powered instead of somewhat gimped.
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#4 Jan 21 2011 at 10:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not a fan of branching like this. I feel it forces people to level things they don't want to, in a game that has so many classes.

I'm also just not sure that it works anymore, I haven't seen an MMO use a system like this in a long time. Every time I see specialization like this, its done via talent trees or some type, and its changeable at a later date. We may see clsases unlock via other class levels, but I highly doubt we will ever see classes transform.

The other thing is, and I'm sure not a lot of people will agree with me, I cannot see the iconic basic classes be advanced or second tier at all. If they're going to implement them, you're going to see the current classes heavily altered and renamed. If I had to guess, THM would lose alot of the dark magic and become red mage. Conjurer would lose its heals and some of its buffs and become black mage. a new white mage will be created. I simply don't feel there is a clean way to handle it.
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#5 Jan 21 2011 at 11:57 PM Rating: Good
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Archfiend Luceo wrote:
So after reading about the possible changes to classes as well as their names it got me thinking and this in turn led to a rousing discussion with some of my LS mates. We found the renaming of classes to be entirely unnecessary and thought of an alternative route of branching off into specialized classes. Sort of an advanced job, if you will. We sort of followed a FF Tactics scheme for this.

I like this idea!

First off is Lancer it could branch off into a Dragoon or as my friend insanely suggested, Choco Knight. Still working out a viable off-shoot to complement this one.

Choco Knight would be awesome. Dragoon, yes please.

Archer could branch off into a Hunter similar to the WoW version and be able to summon a familiar pet to assist them in battle or branch off into something similar to the Sniper class and have a series of debuffing attacks.

How about the FFTA "Hunter" that can capture the "souls" of enemies - maybe they could use those souls as pets. If the pet dies the soul is lost. You can only carry X amount of souls at a time.

Pugilist could branch off into a Monk and get more abilities that correlate with that type of class or go the Rogue route and have more of the back-attacking and Stealing moves.

Let people have their THF! Don't call it a rogue! PUG could also branch into a "Fighter" type ala FFTA

Gladiator could branch off into a Paladin type class or more of a melee heavy Swordmaster class with a dazzling variety of sword attacks.

I would suggest SPELLBLADE or Mystic Knight rather than swordmaster. Also "Templar" from FFTA would be cool to see

Marauder could branch off into a Buccaneer class with some fancy moves that debuff the enemy or a Berzerker route that focuses more on raw damage.

How about just straight up warrior instead of berserker - keeping with the FF tradition?

Conjurer we figured could branch off into more of a White Mage spell set or a Black Mage spell set, we failed however to come up with cool names.

Yeah, that is a tough one. I think elementalist has more in common with CON than THM. How about Geomancer a la FFV? I wouldn't suggest it be exactly the same, but could use it as a jumping off point. I honestly don't feel the need for WHM/BLM to return since CON has it all pretty much - and I like that!

Thaumaturge could branch off more into a Red Mage or even some manner of battle mage or take a different route and be an Elementalist using spells that do lowish elemental damage and enfeebles the enemy

I think that THM would be a great class to turn into a BLU sort of class (keeping in line with it's vampiric nature). Also how about illusionist? Obviously what FFtactics advance had going on wouldn't work - but might be a good class to have all the hide and sneak type skills on and some more debuffy type things (confuse, fear, etc)

Now as far as the DoL and DoH classes I'm not entirely sure changes for them would be necessary or how they would even implement them.

I'm interested in seeing other peoples ideas and viewpoints as this is just a roughly sketched out idea I am working onSmiley: smile



I also think advanced jobs are necessary beyond those:

Bard, Muskateer, PUP, BST, SMN, SAM, NIN, DNC etc.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#6 Jan 21 2011 at 11:59 PM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:

I'm also just not sure that it works anymore, I haven't seen an MMO use a system like this in a long time. Every time I see specialization like this, its done via talent trees or some type, and its changeable at a later date. We may see clsases unlock via other class levels, but I highly doubt we will ever see classes transform.


Oh I wouldn't want them to "become" that - just that you can unlock those jobs once you get a certain level of the main class. That would be cool. I think that is what the OP is referencing given that they are talking about FFtactics
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#7 Jan 22 2011 at 12:03 AM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:

I'm also just not sure that it works anymore, I haven't seen an MMO use a system like this in a long time. Every time I see specialization like this, its done via talent trees or some type, and its changeable at a later date. We may see clsases unlock via other class levels, but I highly doubt we will ever see classes transform.


Oh I wouldn't want them to "become" that - just that you can unlock those jobs once you get a certain level of the main class. That would be cool. I think that is what the OP is referencing given that they are talking about FFtactics


Maybe I did misunderstand, but the way I read it, the classes looked like they would be replacing them. They seemed more like evolutions, too related, and that they would outright replace the original class.
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#8 Jan 22 2011 at 12:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think it's a great idea, personally. There's a lot you could do with a system like that.

Quote:
I'm not a fan of branching like this. I feel it forces people to level things they don't want to, in a game that has so many classes.
I don't see how you're forced to level things you don't want. Right now if you want sneak attacks you level pugilist anyway. If you want enfeebles, you level Thaumaturge. The classes suggested by the OP branch off very realistically based on the skills those classes already have, so you know what you're getting into before you start.

I would have to suggest, however, that any skills gained by these 'advanced' classes should only be available when you ARE that class. Otherwise there would be little point to having an advanced class and it would ultimately still feel the same, with all players mixing and matching, never having a true identity to them.

Further, levelling one 'advanced' class should not prevent you from choosing an additional path, should you wish. You could branch off from Conjurer into White Mage, for example, and then try your hand at Black Mage. Advanced classes could start at R30 with the skills of their base profession available and traits to enhance their core skills (Attack spells in the case of Black Mage or heals for White).

It's definitely something the devs should consider when trying to give the classes a sense of uniqueness to them.
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#9 Jan 22 2011 at 12:20 AM Rating: Good
Glitterhands wrote:
I think it's a great idea, personally. There's a lot you could do with a system like that.

Quote:
I'm not a fan of branching like this. I feel it forces people to level things they don't want to, in a game that has so many classes.
I don't see how you're forced to level things you don't want. Right now if you want sneak attacks you level pugilist anyway. If you want enfeebles, you level Thaumaturge. The classes suggested by the OP branch off very realistically based on the skills those classes already have, so you know what you're getting into before you start.

I would have to suggest, however, that any skills gained by these 'advanced' classes should only be available when you ARE that class. Otherwise there would be little point to having an advanced class and it would ultimately still feel the same, with all players mixing and matching, never having a true identity to them.

Further, levelling one 'advanced' class should not prevent you from choosing an additional path, should you wish. You could branch off from Conjurer into White Mage, for example, and then try your hand at Black Mage. Advanced classes could start at R30 with the skills of their base profession available and traits to enhance their core skills (Attack spells in the case of Black Mage or heals for White).

It's definitely something the devs should consider when trying to give the classes a sense of uniqueness to them.


That is precisely the angle I am going for and I agree on the starting rank and that you shouldn't be locked into that specialization but you have to be the new specialized class to use the abilities that would come with it. Basically it offers more customization and would allow players to use the job in the way they prefer to play without having to level an entire new class.
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#10 Jan 22 2011 at 12:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Glitterhands wrote:
I think it's a great idea, personally. There's a lot you could do with a system like that.

Quote:
I'm not a fan of branching like this. I feel it forces people to level things they don't want to, in a game that has so many classes.
I don't see how you're forced to level things you don't want. Right now if you want sneak attacks you level pugilist anyway. If you want enfeebles, you level Thaumaturge. The classes suggested by the OP branch off very realistically based on the skills those classes already have, so you know what you're getting into before you start.

I would have to suggest, however, that any skills gained by these 'advanced' classes should only be available when you ARE that class. Otherwise there would be little point to having an advanced class and it would ultimately still feel the same, with all players mixing and matching, never having a true identity to them.

Further, levelling one 'advanced' class should not prevent you from choosing an additional path, should you wish. You could branch off from Conjurer into White Mage, for example, and then try your hand at Black Mage. Advanced classes could start at R30 with the skills of their base profession available and traits to enhance their core skills (Attack spells in the case of Black Mage or heals for White).

It's definitely something the devs should consider when trying to give the classes a sense of uniqueness to them.


What I don't want to happen is this example. I want to play a class that is derived from leveling lancer, call it L2. In order to play that, I'll have to level lancer to X (whatever that is, 30, 50, some other level it doesn't matter yet. No big deal, can start the game with lancer, and unlock it after X levels. Now I really want an ability from a class derived from Pugilist, call it P2. I then will have to level all the way through Pugilist, which I see no gain in other than unlocking P2, and spending however many hours is required to get to X, before I can get to what I consider more meaningful leveling of class P2.

Now what gets more frustrating, is what if class L2 is announced, and all I've done so far is level up Con and Thurm because I previously didn't enjoy any of the DOW. then I'll have to start by leveling up Lancer all the way too.

Now basically this is all dependent on how high X is, or how long it takes. At this point, if it was any higher than 20 (basically 20ish hours), I'd have no interest in it.

Basically, I feel this kinda plan is less flexible. I would prefer any level requirements be tied to physical (gotta get something else out of that system), or just highest class rank. I'm all for leveling a class for a specific ability, I think its one of the game design intents that we should be doing that, but I don't think we should have to level something specific to open up the chance to level a class for an ability.
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#11 Jan 22 2011 at 12:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Archfiend Luceo wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
I think it's a great idea, personally. There's a lot you could do with a system like that.

Quote:
I'm not a fan of branching like this. I feel it forces people to level things they don't want to, in a game that has so many classes.
I don't see how you're forced to level things you don't want. Right now if you want sneak attacks you level pugilist anyway. If you want enfeebles, you level Thaumaturge. The classes suggested by the OP branch off very realistically based on the skills those classes already have, so you know what you're getting into before you start.

I would have to suggest, however, that any skills gained by these 'advanced' classes should only be available when you ARE that class. Otherwise there would be little point to having an advanced class and it would ultimately still feel the same, with all players mixing and matching, never having a true identity to them.

Further, levelling one 'advanced' class should not prevent you from choosing an additional path, should you wish. You could branch off from Conjurer into White Mage, for example, and then try your hand at Black Mage. Advanced classes could start at R30 with the skills of their base profession available and traits to enhance their core skills (Attack spells in the case of Black Mage or heals for White).

It's definitely something the devs should consider when trying to give the classes a sense of uniqueness to them.


That is precisely the angle I am going for and I agree on the starting rank and that you shouldn't be locked into that specialization but you have to be the new specialized class to use the abilities that would come with it. Basically it offers more customization and would allow players to use the job in the way they prefer to play without having to level an entire new class.



First off sorry for double posting, didn't want to mess with editing this in.

What you're describing, basically turns off the armory system for those abilities? in your example only archers can be using Hunter/sniper abilities? If thats correct, I've personally be asking for a similar thing, only I didn't think anymore leveling should be involved, Just give classes abilities that are more flavored and themed to the class/weapon that cannot be used by other classes. I mean maybe still open up 2 branches within the current classes to specialize in one, or make them purchasable with marks. I think the downside would be that you're spreading 1 real class's worth of abilities in 3 classes, leaving everything feeling repetitive and stretched out, as well as adding hundreds to thousands of more grinding hours.
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#12 Jan 22 2011 at 1:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
What I don't want to happen is this example. I want to play a class that is derived from leveling lancer, call it L2. In order to play that, I'll have to level lancer to X (whatever that is, 30, 50, some other level it doesn't matter yet. No big deal, can start the game with lancer, and unlock it after X levels. Now I really want an ability from a class derived from Pugilist, call it P2. I then will have to level all the way through Pugilist, which I see no gain in other than unlocking P2, and spending however many hours is required to get to X, before I can get to what I consider more meaningful leveling of class P2.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. This is what we already have in the game. If you want Cure, for example, you'll need to level Conjurer. If you want Second Wind, you best level Pugilist. If you read my post, I strongly suggested that any of the 'advanced' skills gained through specialisation should be made available ONLY to those classes. Specialisation should be exactly that, being specific to a task. If you could cross-class any of the advanced skills it would defeat the whole purpose since players could remain 100% hybrids with no true sense of class identity.

Perhaps you meant to say that the current system is flawed, to which I would agree. The problem is you can't just destroy the entire class system right now without effectively 'wiping' some character data. People have levelled their Conjurers or Pugilists and earned the right to use the skills they've gained along the way. There would be a lot of backlash should they remove that capability at this point. No, instead of removal we need additions to the class system which bolt in specific tasks for classes so that everyone has their role.
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#13 Jan 22 2011 at 1:22 AM Rating: Good
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Glitterhands wrote:


Perhaps you meant to say that the current system is flawed, to which I would agree. The problem is you can't just destroy the entire class system right now without effectively 'wiping' some character data. People have levelled their Conjurers or Pugilists and earned the right to use the skills they've gained along the way. There would be a lot of backlash should they remove that capability at this point. No, instead of removal we need additions to the class system which bolt in specific tasks for classes so that everyone has their role.


This!

If I've leveled up THM for Siphon MP and then SE takes away the ability for me to cross-class it - it would be the same thing as a wipe because the effort I put into getting that ability was premised on the ability to use it cross-class. If all of the sudden my grinding was pretty much pointless then it might as well be a wipe.

I would like to see them redefine the combat system by changing mechanics such as SP, modifiers, enemity, the way classes deal damage and their speed, how they take damage, deal damage, etc - maybe adding some traits to base jobs (key is adding) to make them more defined - and by working in new jobs where the rules are different, re: cross classing.

I didn't rank up LNC to get speed surge for my THM cause I knew the rules. If they add bard or beastmaster - and the skills are simply generally not cross-classable I am not going to feel very butthurt that I can't cross-class them. Like we all just dealt with the fact that /DRG did NOT get a pet.

Also I think that classes like BRD and BST are totally reasonable for cross class abilities - beastmaster should just be more like FFTA beastmaster where you learn to control certain beasts. So you would have things like "control Doblyn, control rodent, control roseling, etc" - it could be limited in terms of crossclassing by level - for example - make it that there is a 7 rank penalty to the check on the control debuff - so you wouldn't be able to control same level beasts like a full beastmaster - and probably wouldn't bother to use the points to equip more than 1 or two beast control spells.

BRD could be limited the same it was in XI - without an intrument equipped, a sub bard can only have one song effect. Make bards be able to have more beneficial effects on - and of course un-crossclassable skills.

I don't think you actually have to restrain abilities to have job definition - what you need to do is give each class more proficiency at their chosen vocation and special abilities which enhance that.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#14 Jan 22 2011 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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Glitterhands wrote:
Quote:
What I don't want to happen is this example. I want to play a class that is derived from leveling lancer, call it L2. In order to play that, I'll have to level lancer to X (whatever that is, 30, 50, some other level it doesn't matter yet. No big deal, can start the game with lancer, and unlock it after X levels. Now I really want an ability from a class derived from Pugilist, call it P2. I then will have to level all the way through Pugilist, which I see no gain in other than unlocking P2, and spending however many hours is required to get to X, before I can get to what I consider more meaningful leveling of class P2.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. This is what we already have in the game. If you want Cure, for example, you'll need to level Conjurer. If you want Second Wind, you best level Pugilist. If you read my post, I strongly suggested that any of the 'advanced' skills gained through specialisation should be made available ONLY to those classes. Specialisation should be exactly that, being specific to a task. If you could cross-class any of the advanced skills it would defeat the whole purpose since players could remain 100% hybrids with no true sense of class identity.

Perhaps you meant to say that the current system is flawed, to which I would agree. The problem is you can't just destroy the entire class system right now without effectively 'wiping' some character data. People have levelled their Conjurers or Pugilists and earned the right to use the skills they've gained along the way. There would be a lot of backlash should they remove that capability at this point. No, instead of removal we need additions to the class system which bolt in specific tasks for classes so that everyone has their role.


I'll try to be more clear. I have zero problem leveling Conjurer to get conjurer spells. I have a huge problem if I have to level another specific class in order to unlock conjurer so I can level conjurer to get conjurer spells, especially if I see no other reason to level the class that I leveled in order to unlock conjurer (if that all makes sense). I think Specifying the class that has to be used to unlock an advanced class just adds more grind most of the time. It lowers flexibility imo.

To use a FFXI example, it would be like forcing you to level warrior to 30 to unlock dragoon. What if from day one I've wanted to be a drg/WHM, I'll have to level WHM, then warrior (which I have no plans to play) to unlock Dragoon, then I can go on as the drg/whm I wanted to be, having been out the X hours it took to level up warrior. And you may say thats fine, plenty of older games did this because grinding was more acceptable back then. It isn't today and if thats the system, I'm fairly certain it will turn plenty of people away.

What I have suggested, was that if you want a class that is unlocked through pugilist, call it monk. And the abilities that monk gets can only be used if you in the monk class, why not save everyone the grinding time, and just make those abilities pugilist only.
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#15 Jan 22 2011 at 6:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Email this to Yoshi-P now!
#16 Jan 22 2011 at 7:47 PM Rating: Good
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Archfiend Luceo wrote:
So after reading about the possible changes to classes as well as their names it got me thinking and this in turn led to a rousing discussion with some of my LS mates. We found the renaming of classes to be entirely unnecessary and thought of an alternative route of branching off into specialized classes. Sort of an advanced job, if you will. We sort of followed a FF Tactics scheme for this.

First off is Lancer it could branch off into a Dragoon or as my friend insanely suggested, Choco Knight. Still working out a viable off-shoot to complement this one.

Archer could branch off into a Hunter similar to the WoW version and be able to summon a familiar pet to assist them in battle or branch off into something similar to the Sniper class and have a series of debuffing attacks.

Pugilist could branch off into a Monk and get more abilities that correlate with that type of class or go the Rogue route and have more of the back-attacking and Stealing moves.

Gladiator could branch off into a Paladin type class or more of a melee heavy Swordmaster class with a dazzling variety of sword attacks.

Marauder could branch off into a Buccaneer class with some fancy moves that debuff the enemy or a Berzerker route that focuses more on raw damage.

Conjurer we figured could branch off into more of a White Mage spell set or a Black Mage spell set, we failed however to come up with cool names.

Thaumaturge could branch off more into a Red Mage or even some manner of battle mage or take a different route and be an Elementalist using spells that do lowish elemental damage and enfeebles the enemy

Now as far as the DoL and DoH classes I'm not entirely sure changes for them would be necessary or how they would even implement them.

I'm interested in seeing other peoples ideas and viewpoints as this is just a roughly sketched out idea I am working onSmiley: smile

tl;dr- Don't rename me into a monk, let me become one!




I love everything about this.
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#17 Jan 22 2011 at 8:44 PM Rating: Decent
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i have a thread kind of like this one, thought my approach is just slightly different, basically taking FFT full on.

level GLD and COn to X level and unlock PLD as a new class, this way you can play any of them and have the skills you learned from leveling those classes all the time (usually making the 2 combo classes as mixtures of stuff you would use anyway with the more "defined" FF classic job anyways). And those special classes being much more specialized where most skills are not interchangeable (so they stay defined in there own ways)

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=129573763819889688&page=1

Our ideas are pretty similar. The only reason i went this way is because of what some people where thinking with many other games "skill tree" style, where you feel locked into one way or another. Too many people think of it that way because a lot of games use skill tree type systems.

#18 Jan 22 2011 at 11:04 PM Rating: Good
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Archfiend Luceo wrote:
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Now as far as the DoL and DoH classes I'm not entirely sure changes for them would be necessary or how they would even implement them.

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Well for DoL, we could have the

Miners could have them branch out to Goldsmith mats oriented and Metalsmith mats oriented.

Botanist, well.... Environmental Activist or Eco Terrorists <--- **** yeah!!!
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#19 Jan 22 2011 at 11:31 PM Rating: Good
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for Miner could add in Driller (maybe workshop that a bit lol) but add in a subsurface rather than pure surface mining.

Edit: since mining is split into VIT and MND, possibly Driller more VIT, and add in a telekinesis miner for MND or possibly some strange process of magical osmosis. /shrug

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 12:35am by TempLoop
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#20 Jan 23 2011 at 2:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
think Specifying the class that has to be used to unlock an advanced class just adds more grind most of the time. It lowers flexibility imo.
In the case of the classes listed, all of them in some way relate to the advanced versions. For example Conjurer is effectively a white and black mage rolled into one. Making it branch into either White or Black magic isn't anything more than a logical step forward. If you didn't want to level the precursor class for some reason, chances are you wouldn't enjoy the advanced version of it either because of the similarity between them.


Quote:
the abilities that monk gets can only be used if you in the monk class, why not save everyone the grinding time, and just make those abilities pugilist only.
The problem is that many of the classes are so widely varied. Take a look at Pugilist and you'll see a Monk/Thief/Warrior hybrid class (Hand-to-hand, Blindside, Taunt). One look at Conjurer and you'll see a White/Black mage hybrid class. While this makes for great multi-classing its lousy for giving characters a true sense of identity, which is the whole point to this.

Having branching classes off the main ones does nothing to deter players of the original class because you would already have levelled with some of those abilities anyway. The core element of the class is still there. The idea here being that you can simply bolt on new skills specialised in one of the areas that your base class was good at and make them unique to that class. That is how you specialise, rather than giving them to the base class and just making them better hybrids.

Its easy enough to say "Make Pugilist into a monk" but what if you'd prefer to become more of a Thief? After all, both of those elements are in the Pugilist class. Do you give them specialised THF skills or specialised MNK skills? Do you give them both? If so, how is that any different than what we already have? The point im trying to make is that even if you were to make these skills unique only to PUG, its still a blend of several FFXI classes, which doesn't make for very good specialisation.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 4:00am by Glitterhands
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#21 Jan 23 2011 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
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I would like this as a higher level content type thing. Let's pretend I am a Gladiator and I have just hit level 50, where upon I am offered two new quests. Quest-line one gives me a Knightsword at the end which when upon equipping changes my job to Paladin. I keep my gladiator abilities and can continue leveling to 75 or 100 or whatever. Quest-line two gives me a wakizishi which upon equipping turns me into a Ninja. Again, I keep my gladiator abilities and go level up my new class.

The 'advanced' classes would then have abilities that are more 'unique' towards their class and the 'roll' of that class. A Paladin would focus on light magic based sword attacks and reducing damage to himself and his allies through his shield, while a ninja would focus on quick lethal attacks and dual wielding. But for the love of christ, no Utsusemi.

If the goal then is to keep the jobs unique, simply keep more of the skills unique. Or Perhaps make cross class skills cost an additional skill point so as to force people to have to use more skills from their currently equipped class rather than taking any ability that they've unlocked.



Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 10:49am by WarkupoZ
#22 Jan 23 2011 at 10:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Glitterhands wrote:
Quote:
think Specifying the class that has to be used to unlock an advanced class just adds more grind most of the time. It lowers flexibility imo.
In the case of the classes listed, all of them in some way relate to the advanced versions. For example Conjurer is effectively a white and black mage rolled into one. Making it branch into either White or Black magic isn't anything more than a logical step forward. If you didn't want to level the precursor class for some reason, chances are you wouldn't enjoy the advanced version of it either because of the similarity between them.


Quote:
the abilities that monk gets can only be used if you in the monk class, why not save everyone the grinding time, and just make those abilities pugilist only.
The problem is that many of the classes are so widely varied. Take a look at Pugilist and you'll see a Monk/Thief/Warrior hybrid class (Hand-to-hand, Blindside, Taunt). One look at Conjurer and you'll see a White/Black mage hybrid class. While this makes for great multi-classing its lousy for giving characters a true sense of identity, which is the whole point to this.

Having branching classes off the main ones does nothing to deter players of the original class because you would already have levelled with some of those abilities anyway. The core element of the class is still there. The idea here being that you can simply bolt on new skills specialised in one of the areas that your base class was good at and make them unique to that class. That is how you specialise, rather than giving them to the base class and just making them better hybrids.

Its easy enough to say "Make Pugilist into a monk" but what if you'd prefer to become more of a Thief? After all, both of those elements are in the Pugilist class. Do you give them specialised THF skills or specialised MNK skills? Do you give them both? If so, how is that any different than what we already have? The point im trying to make is that even if you were to make these skills unique only to PUG, its still a blend of several FFXI classes, which doesn't make for very good specialisation.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 4:00am by Glitterhands


I don't know, I think you're thinking more in terms of classes, and I'm still thinking in terms of the armory system as it is now, which I think what you're suggesting wouldn't work very well with it.
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#23 Jan 23 2011 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Archfiend Luceo wrote:
So after reading about the possible changes to classes as well as their names it got me thinking and this in turn led to a rousing discussion with some of my LS mates. We found the renaming of classes to be entirely unnecessary and thought of an alternative route of branching off into specialized classes. Sort of an advanced job, if you will. We sort of followed a FF Tactics scheme for this.

... or as my friend insanely suggested, Choco Knight. Still working out a viable off-shoot to complement this one.




There will be a Shepard class. Perhaps we will be able to use this class to branch into mob related classes once it is implemented.

X + shepard = Beast Master

Lancer + Gladiator + Shepard = Choco Knight

Thaumaturge/Conjurer + Shepard = Summoner

Thaumaturge/Conjurer + Shepard = Blue Mage

Also, I really like the tactice class system, I really wish we could get more of a return to that type of skill slot system to prevent the /everything that we have now.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 12:58pm by RenaultBenoit
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#24 Jan 24 2011 at 4:47 AM Rating: Decent
Archfiend Luceo wrote:


Conjurer we figured could branch off into more of a White Mage spell set or a Black Mage spell set, we failed however to come up with cool names.



This sounds to me like Scholar on FFXI....
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#25 Jan 24 2011 at 5:16 AM Rating: Good
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I would do it more general. Start off with classes and as they level and evolve have them upgrade. You should be able to see where the class goes from lvl 1. You keep skills magic from lower class and gain more as you evolve.

My example:

Normal Classes:
Warrior – Melee/ Tank class (Balance)
Knight - Melee/Party buff (Balance)
Dark Knight - Melee/Enemy Debuff (Major Melee)
Monk – Melee/Party Healing (Major Melee)
Mage – Magic/Distance Assault (Major magic Dmg)
Priest – Magic/Group Healing (Group Heal)
Warlock – Magic/Enemy Hex (Balance)
Geomancer – Magic/Distance Assault (Major magic Dmg)
Hunter – Ranged Melee/Enemy Hex (Balance)
Rogue – Melee/Initial assault (Assault)

Upgraded Classes:
Juggernaut– Melee/Tank (Major both) ((upgrade Class Warrior))
Praetorian – Melee/holy magic (Major both) ((upgrade Class Knight))
Executioner – Melee/Dark magic (Major both) ((upgrade class Dark Knight)
Sensei – Melee/Chi magic (Major both) ((Upgrade class Monk))
Sorcerer – Magic/Conjuring (major both) ((upgrade class Mage))
Seraph – Healing/group buffs (major both) ((upgrade class Priest))
Tormentor – Magic/DoT’s (Major both) ((Upgrade class Warlock))
Elemental - Magic/Nature (major both) ((upgrade class Geomancer))
Ranger – Ranged Melee (Major both) ((Upgrade class Hunter))
Brigand – Melee/Stealth (Major both) ((upgrade class Rogue))

Which would at cap lead to the final super class.

My opiinion anyway.

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#26 Jan 24 2011 at 5:42 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
How about just straight up warrior instead of berserker - keeping with the FF tradition?


Allow a nitpick ^^

Berserker is a job in FFV.

I'm not sure if Warrior has always been "Warrior" in Japan, but it was "Fighter" here before they did an overall re-name of mobs/classes after XI hit NA (and re-releases swept the land to keep the company rolling).

I'm happy calling it Warrior, but from my NA perspective the name "Berserker" is more traditional. Hehe.
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#27 Jan 24 2011 at 6:50 AM Rating: Good
Doing something along these lines à la Final Fantasy Tactics would definitely add much more FF feeling to this game. I just can't imagine having only these jobs was SE's vision from the start. There's just something good about aiming to level that "Advanced" class, it might not necessarily be better, but there's just something about it.
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#28 Jan 24 2011 at 7:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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KujaKoF wrote:

The other thing is, and I'm sure not a lot of people will agree with me, I cannot see the iconic basic classes be advanced or second tier at all.


I'd like to come back to this point if I may, I know it isnt what the OP was getting at but I actually think it could work this way. I'll explain.

In XI if I was a WAR who used a dagger and then I wanted to use a sword I would have to go back and level up my sword skill so I could continue killing the same mobs as before.

XIV is actually similar to this. All I see we are doing at the moment is leveling up our skill with certain weapons/tools. So once I am skilled enough in Conjury I could become a Black Mage. Or once I am skilled enough at Swordsmanship I can become a Samurai etc. Then add the combinations which Renault Benoit mentionned. i.e. once I am skilled enough in Conjury and Sheparding, Summoner becomes available (with quests too of course).

So its not that the Black Mage would be an advanced job but we're just starting out at a more basic level.

But in general I like a lot of the ideas in this thread. Great discussion :)
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#29 Jan 24 2011 at 8:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Archfiend Luceo wrote:
So after reading about the possible changes to classes as well as their names it got me thinking and this in turn led to a rousing discussion with some of my LS mates. We found the renaming of classes to be entirely unnecessary and thought of an alternative route of branching off into specialized classes. Sort of an advanced job, if you will. We sort of followed a FF Tactics scheme for this.

First off is Lancer it could branch off into a Dragoon or as my friend insanely suggested, Choco Knight. Still working out a viable off-shoot to complement this one.

Archer could branch off into a Hunter similar to the WoW version and be able to summon a familiar pet to assist them in battle or branch off into something similar to the Sniper class and have a series of debuffing attacks.

Pugilist could branch off into a Monk and get more abilities that correlate with that type of class or go the Rogue route and have more of the back-attacking and Stealing moves.

Gladiator could branch off into a Paladin type class or more of a melee heavy Swordmaster class with a dazzling variety of sword attacks.

Marauder could branch off into a Buccaneer class with some fancy moves that debuff the enemy or a Berzerker route that focuses more on raw damage.

Conjurer we figured could branch off into more of a White Mage spell set or a Black Mage spell set, we failed however to come up with cool names.

Thaumaturge could branch off more into a Red Mage or even some manner of battle mage or take a different route and be an Elementalist using spells that do lowish elemental damage and enfeebles the enemy

Now as far as the DoL and DoH classes I'm not entirely sure changes for them would be necessary or how they would even implement them.

I'm interested in seeing other peoples ideas and viewpoints as this is just a roughly sketched out idea I am working onSmiley: smile

tl;dr- Don't rename me into a monk, let me become one!




I'd like to see this system, and hopefully you would have to go through a challenging quest to gain access to those new classes.

The idea of affinities (lower penalties) between advanced classes and their "root" basic class is great, it would kind of give a purpose to the current leveling of somewhat similar and loose classes, leveling would become more goal-oriented.

In FFXI, it was generally accepted that the 6 basic classes were good subs (although they were good main, too) and advanced classes should be played as main classes.

Your system would take the rules of the current armory system to try and to obtain such a balance between class specialization and early leveling of more general classes.
#30 Jan 24 2011 at 6:03 PM Rating: Good
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I'd love a Bard class who uses music instruments as weapons (and is not an Animist).
#31 Jan 24 2011 at 8:55 PM Rating: Good
20 posts
Yes Metin that is exactly the type of system I want them to implement. Let us keep the work we have done with these " basic" jobs and add our content that we need class wise through a class advancement system. I really want to see more traits and slots to implement them within, as well, even if they must be purchased with marks from their respective disciplines. And please, give me my geomancer that I crave so much!

Arcanist + Gladiator = GEOMANCER
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#32 Jan 25 2011 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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hmmm im not sure i understand but i will give my thoughts anyway.

If it is just quests like ff11 were u get 1 job to 30 (anyjob) then u can unlock all these advanced jobs then yes good idea

If you are saying i need to level up lancer to 30 just to get ONE job (chocobo knight, dragoon etc) then no thats a time sink and a waste.

when i want to play summoner i do not want to level black mage to 30-40 just to do it. Likewise if i want to play lancer i do not want to level another job to 30 to do it. you should level to a certain level ONCE to unlock missions to all jobs or it becames a grind fest just to unlock the job you need.

Also if i want to stay MRD (cause if my first job and i love it) i do not want to HAVE to branch off to something esle just to be strong. MRD should be just as strong/usefull as choco knight or w/e just like how FF11's advanced/basic jobs were. I would be ****** if i have to level another job just to compete when my MRD is 50 already.

Edited, Jan 25th 2011 1:53pm by dnored

Edited, Jan 25th 2011 1:53pm by dnored

Edited, Jan 25th 2011 1:54pm by dnored
#33 Jan 25 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
when i want to play summoner i do not want to level black mage to 30-40 just to do it. Likewise if i want to play lancer i do not want to level another job to 30 to do it. you should level to a certain level ONCE to unlock missions to all jobs or it becames a grind fest just to unlock the job you need.
Technically, FFXI had this in some form anyway. In order to be a half-way decent Summoner you'd NEED to have White Mage levelled to at least 40 for your support job. In order to be considered a decent Paladin, you would NEED to have Warrior as a support job for Provoke.

If the advanced classes branch off appropriately, there is no reason why this can't work in a similar and well thought out fashion. People are already levelling multiple classes anyway so they can mix and match skills. Adding this level of specialisation only encourages what is already considered the norm.
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#34 Jan 25 2011 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Archfiend Luceo wrote:
Thaumaturge could branch off more into a Red Mage or even some manner of battle mage or take a different route and be an Elementalist using spells that do lowish elemental damage and enfeebles the enemy
Whatever they do, all I can hope for is that Red Mage equates to "magic fencer" this time around instead of refreshbot/hastebot/curebot/buffbot. *nod*
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#35 Jan 25 2011 at 5:38 PM Rating: Decent
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LeilaniWildfire wrote:
Archfiend Luceo wrote:


Conjurer we figured could branch off into more of a White Mage spell set or a Black Mage spell set, we failed however to come up with cool names.



This sounds to me like Scholar on FFXI....


close though scholar never had access to high teir nukes or heals, they were reserved for the BLM and WHM. CON already (stupidly IMO) 3 major apects of a mages, top healer, top nuker top buffer, which doesnt leave much for future mages...they would all have to be specialized...in turn making them feel lesser then CON.

they would have to be mostly seperated for the classic names to come, or for SCH to happen, take away and make spells need higher levels.
#36 Jan 25 2011 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
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Glitterhands wrote:
Quote:
when i want to play summoner i do not want to level black mage to 30-40 just to do it. Likewise if i want to play lancer i do not want to level another job to 30 to do it. you should level to a certain level ONCE to unlock missions to all jobs or it becames a grind fest just to unlock the job you need.
Technically, FFXI had this in some form anyway. In order to be a half-way decent Summoner you'd NEED to have White Mage levelled to at least 40 for your support job. In order to be considered a decent Paladin, you would NEED to have Warrior as a support job for Provoke.

If the advanced classes branch off appropriately, there is no reason why this can't work in a similar and well thought out fashion. People are already levelling multiple classes anyway so they can mix and match skills. Adding this level of specialisation only encourages what is already considered the norm.


I get your point, and I'm one of the players who would likely in this system be leveling the optimal, or 'appropriate' classes anyways, but I still don't think it should be actually forced. I think the system is more welcoming when it stays a should and not a must.

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#37 Jan 25 2011 at 7:43 PM Rating: Good
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Final Fantasy Tactics worked semi similar to this and I loved it.

In fact, I'd go a step further to say that leveling two classes or three could unlock other advanced jobs. e.g. leveling ThM and CON to a certain level would unlock Scholar, etc.
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#38 Jan 25 2011 at 7:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I think it's a very "meh" idea. Some people will like it and others will hate it, depending on their playstyle and goals. And while I subsequently don't care either way if they do something like this, I think it's the last sort of thing they should do given the state of the game.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#39 Jan 25 2011 at 8:15 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
I think it's a very "meh" idea. Some people will like it and others will hate it, depending on their playstyle and goals. And while I subsequently don't care either way if they do something like this, I think it's the last sort of thing they should do given the state of the game.


Thats kinda where I am with it, I just don't feel its right for this game, and especially the armory system. I just don't like it for the amount of time it takes to level, and amount of classes that would end up in a game that promotes leveling every class
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#40 Jan 25 2011 at 8:36 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Final Fantasy Tactics worked semi similar to this and I loved it.

In fact, I'd go a step further to say that leveling two classes or three could unlock other advanced jobs. e.g. leveling ThM and CON to a certain level would unlock Scholar, etc.


(Yes,Please)
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#41 Jan 26 2011 at 4:54 AM Rating: Good
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I like the idea of class branches or advanced classes becomming avaliable when certain classes reach a certain rank too.

But I don't want a new class to just "be there" when the requirements are met. It would be more fun and would create more atmosphere if you would just unlock a quest to unlock a new class. Similar to the advanced job quests in XI.
These quests should become avaliable pretty soon so people don't have to rank up too high to play what they want.
R30 is already kinda high. I think r20 should be the maximum required rank.

Glitterhands wrote:
I don't see how you're forced to level things you don't want. Right now if you want sneak attacks you level pugilist anyway. If you want enfeebles, you level Thaumaturge. The classes suggested by the OP branch off very realistically based on the skills those classes already have, so you know what you're getting into before you start.

I would have to suggest, however, that any skills gained by these 'advanced' classes should only be available when you ARE that class. Otherwise there would be little point to having an advanced class and it would ultimately still feel the same, with all players mixing and matching, never having a true identity to them.

Further, levelling one 'advanced' class should not prevent you from choosing an additional path, should you wish. You could branch off from Conjurer into White Mage, for example, and then try your hand at Black Mage. Advanced classes could start at R30 with the skills of their base profession available and traits to enhance their core skills (Attack spells in the case of Black Mage or heals for White).


I agree with that. Especially with the restriction of class specific skills and abilities. Maybe not all of them but enough to really make that class special and unique.

And I don't think there would be any restriction of chosing another "avanced" class as freedom is one of the core aspects of the game.
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#42 Jan 27 2011 at 6:45 PM Rating: Decent
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for the love of all that is holy, please give us a Beastmaster type job, i miss liveing in the wild and i miss killin parties, and soloing things everyone says you cant!! and so i can stay with this game and give SE at least the next 5 years of my life to them as a 12 doller monthly fee ;-; i hate being a fanboy some times (._. )
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