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Bring back the old leveling style?Follow

#1 Jan 22 2011 at 5:10 PM Rating: Good
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Lately, i am pretty tired of just doing the same 8 leve or even group with others to do leves.

Let's just say, i am no longer interest in getting the quest... run half of the map kill 3 things and return and repeat.

I am also playing DC universe right now, and the content quests that FFXIVer seem to want exist here, and let me say that, i am not even enjoying them either, i rather have leve system.

Not only most of the quests are "kill XXXX, collect XXXX, or bring XXX or use XXX" the only change is the scenario (whoever request), location and what you fight are different. Other then that it is 100% repeating. Although DC universe feature an unique instance with a boss battle after 2-3 quest in the line.
The game play is absolutely same as WoW's quest. And i have a feeling The new director will implant something similar into FFXIV.

I think FFXIV needs the old "team and get go" grinding style. Leve system is ok for those seeking for groups, but group grinding should be the major experience advancement overall. Not group leves, because it is still just the same.

I think those who agree with me are the old FFXI'er, the leve system or WoW's quest system is ruining the game. It is the EVIL that is ruining our social aspect of FFXIV because we no longer have a common objective, there is no need for communication.

The new director need to understand this point. Not adding more leve or changing the style of leve. It is team grinding from FFXI that make the game great. Not to mention, the abilities to think about what setup make it works make FFXI a true great game, of course, there are those anti-social that can't make a group and quit.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2011 6:12pm by wrongfeifong
#2 Jan 22 2011 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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So instead of doing quests that are mildly entertaining, you'd rather return to a merciless grind because, while it may be more boring, at least it's more social! Am I understanding this correctly?

I'd rather have my genitals put through a meat slicer than return to pure grind.
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#3 Jan 22 2011 at 5:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd like to solo with quests and join together for party grinding. It's probably near impossible, but if we could have a mixture of both it sure would be nice.
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#4 Jan 22 2011 at 5:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Grinding grinding like back in the day ? No just no, now if it was a grind in the sense that leaves would require that you party up in order to complete them(For difficulty or w/e reason) then good.

But heavy grind style .... nah
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#5 Jan 22 2011 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
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I highly doubt there are enough people who want to grind in a party as the primary source of EXP/SP to sustain a subscription game.
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#6 Jan 22 2011 at 5:49 PM Rating: Good
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I think grinding should be an option ... as it is with coblyns, but with more variate and stronger mobs that require teamwork.
Without a good search system looking for people for a leve isn't really that good... the ammount of time you'd spend looking for people you could have used grinding for more sp.
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#7 Jan 22 2011 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
I think grinding should be an option ... as it is with coblyns, but with more variate and stronger mobs that require teamwork.
Without a good search system looking for people for a leve isn't really that good... the ammount of time you'd spend looking for people you could have used grinding for more sp.


As long as they don't remove SP from mobs, it always will be. It seems that DCU and champions online are the only games that give 1-10EXP per mob, when quests give thousands.

Of course they will have to tweak their party rewards numbers.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2011 6:52pm by KujaKoF
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#8 Jan 22 2011 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
I highly doubt there are enough people who want to grind in a party as the primary source of EXP/SP to sustain a subscription game.


I agree. It's a pretty one-dimensional approach to an MMO. You group, you grind. What's the objective? SP. Is SP the objective or the reward? Both. Really?
#9 Jan 22 2011 at 8:59 PM Rating: Decent
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You guys are missing the point here. I never mention remove leve system.

Leve can stay as a solo content. But grinding is actually the fun. Of course, i don't mean the long grinding say 3hours+. Some of us from FFXI are grinder, FFXI NEVER have experience quest. You are just spoiled by WoW.

You have to remember we HAVE a fatigue system whether it was removed or not, it seem like everyone already forgot about it.

Party grinding will increase experience speed and reach fatigue level faster then solo content. In the end, both way is the same, however grinding in a party is enjoyable because it SHOULD take less time then do 8 leves (30min each = 4 hour but i assume everyone finish them in 15min ea then 2 hour complete it + running around time.).

To add in this, all the dev team need to do is add CHAINS. yes, you heard me right. EXPERIENCE CHAIN! That is the solution. If they can bring auction house, then bring experience Chain in as well. That is all we need.

Of course, experience chain should ONLY happen in parties and should only works with monster of high level.




Edited, Jan 22nd 2011 9:59pm by wrongfeifong
#10 Jan 22 2011 at 9:15 PM Rating: Good
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wrongfeifong wrote:
You guys are missing the point here. I never mention remove leve system.

Leve can stay as a solo content. But grinding is actually the fun. Of course, i don't mean the long grinding say 3hours+. Some of us from FFXI are grinder, FFXI NEVER have experience quest. You are just spoiled by WoW.

You have to remember we HAVE a fatigue system whether it was removed or not, it seem like everyone already forgot about it.

Party grinding will increase experience speed and reach fatigue level faster then solo content. In the end, both way is the same, however grinding in a party is enjoyable because it SHOULD take less time then do 8 leves (30min each = 4 hour but i assume everyone finish them in 15min ea then 2 hour complete it + running around time.).

To add in this, all the dev team need to do is add CHAINS. yes, you heard me right. EXPERIENCE CHAIN! That is the solution. If they can bring auction house, then bring experience Chain in as well. That is all we need.

Of course, experience chain should ONLY happen in parties and should only works with monster of high level.


Why is it that every time someone comes along with a lame idea and everyone points out why it's lame, they automatically assume that the point was missed. The point wasn't missed. You can grind in FFXIV if you want to. You can grind in any other MMO if you want to. The point is, most people are no longer interested in joining a party for the explicit purpose of grinding with no objective other than grinding. That's the point that YOU aren't getting. It's a cop-out for a developer to hand players a game where the best route for progression is to simply grind with no objective beyond gaining SP. It should be about playing and enjoying the game, not progressing as fast as possible even if it means boring yourself to tears. The biggest mistake Yoshida could make right now is to listen to feedback such as yours and think that there's any benefit to be had from retuning the game to favor grinding in groups. 10 years ago it worked. It doesn't work now. Developers can do better, and if they don't, they'll always be compared to developers who did. That's just how it works.
#11 Jan 22 2011 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
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While I think leve system is a good start, I think the main problem with it (at least in my opinion) is that the quests it offers are too simplistic. I would like to see additions to it in terms of the variety of tasks given, perhaps more interaction with characters in towns and such to add to the story, etc. However, a few things I think would be fun (sorry for referring to FFXI but I don't have many MMO references that would be applicable).

a.) The traditional party grind, being able to go out with a group and fight challenging monsters for suitable experience.

b.) Something similar to besiege, with this game's equivalent of beastmen attempting to infiltrate territory close to the towns if not try to actually break in. (maybe this is what hamlet defense will be like?).

c.) Something similar to campaign. Since we don't have random forts in various places like in FFXI perhaps various enemy groups would attempt to attack aetheryte crystals (perhaps depending on how many are in the area so they don't randomly attack while no one is around), with the results of the battle maybe affecting the utility of the aetherytes in some way.


I enjoyed A not because of the "grind" (and what a grind it was), but simply because I would go together with a team against challenging enemies that wouldn't fall over before I had time to take out my weapon and press a macro. I'm not saying we need a grind, we just need enemies that present a suitable challenge with a suitable reward.

B and C after being released I enjoyed more than anything. Whether I was by myself or teamed up with my friends, it wasn't just us but a large group of people giving what we had against enemy forces trying to keep them at bay knowing that if we failed there could be consequences such as certain influential NPC's being absent until we win them back in the next battle, etc. (thinking about it, are these similar to the "rift" feature in that new MMO coming out?).

So ya, there's my 2 gil.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2011 10:32pm by ThePacster
#12 Jan 22 2011 at 9:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:
wrongfeifong wrote:
You guys are missing the point here. I never mention remove leve system.

Leve can stay as a solo content. But grinding is actually the fun. Of course, i don't mean the long grinding say 3hours+. Some of us from FFXI are grinder, FFXI NEVER have experience quest. You are just spoiled by WoW.

You have to remember we HAVE a fatigue system whether it was removed or not, it seem like everyone already forgot about it.

Party grinding will increase experience speed and reach fatigue level faster then solo content. In the end, both way is the same, however grinding in a party is enjoyable because it SHOULD take less time then do 8 leves (30min each = 4 hour but i assume everyone finish them in 15min ea then 2 hour complete it + running around time.).

To add in this, all the dev team need to do is add CHAINS. yes, you heard me right. EXPERIENCE CHAIN! That is the solution. If they can bring auction house, then bring experience Chain in as well. That is all we need.

Of course, experience chain should ONLY happen in parties and should only works with monster of high level.


Why is it that every time someone comes along with a lame idea and everyone points out why it's lame, they automatically assume that the point was missed. The point wasn't missed. You can grind in FFXIV if you want to. You can grind in any other MMO if you want to. The point is, most people are no longer interested in joining a party for the explicit purpose of grinding with no objective other than grinding. That's the point that YOU aren't getting. It's a cop-out for a developer to hand players a game where the best route for progression is to simply grind with no objective beyond gaining SP. It should be about playing and enjoying the game, not progressing as fast as possible even if it means boring yourself to tears. The biggest mistake Yoshida could make right now is to listen to feedback such as yours and think that there's any benefit to be had from retuning the game to favor grinding in groups. 10 years ago it worked. It doesn't work now. Developers can do better, and if they don't, they'll always be compared to developers who did. That's just how it works.


While I agree with you on this Aurelius, I think you're ignoring the fact that players consume content much faster than developers can implement it. The only reason MMOs currently exist is due to grinds, timesinks, and <100% drop rates. To make leveling up as "fun" as end-game, developers would have to design complex content at all level stages. When you consider the typical player remains at a particular early/mid-game level for only a few days or weeks, it's just not practical to develop such fleeting content. Or rather, no one has figured out a leveling system that remains fun and new for years and years. Even WoW style quest leveling gets old when you realize all they did was change the NPC and mob names. Instead, MMOs rely on end-game content to keep players paying for years and years. The leveling up process becomes the necessary evil in order to reach end-game.

Now if SE had spent the last 5 years productively working on content to fit MMO progression, they very well could have made leveling up fun and slow at the same time. But they didn't. And now is not the time to try to re-invent the MMO with FFXIV. Party based grinding worked in the past, and solo based quest grinding is the modern fad. SE just needs to decide which route they'll take. But trying to develop party based quest leveling up content is probably not their best use of resources right now.
#13 Jan 22 2011 at 9:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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I wouldn't be opposed to you if you didn't propose that the group-oriented grind be the superior way to obtain exp/sp over everything else. It tells me that you have a poor understanding of why that style of play has fallen to the wayside in favor of a solo-friendly questing model.

It's boring, it always was. Being able to talk about the weather in Texas does not make standing in a ******* corner while one guy runs off to grab a monster while the rest of the group stands there scratching their balls any more entertaining than it was when you were dead silent; it only served to mask what a horrible ******* experience it all was and how nobody actually wanted to be there.

A game should maintain a certain level of excitement throughout, and not just be an episode of King of the Hill with Hank, Dale, Bill, and Boomhauer standing around waiting for something to happen while going "Yep," "Yep," "Yup," "MmmHmm." I don't want to spend my time standing next to a ******* wall while one guy goes to grab a monster because it's the most efficient way to level, and I would wager most others don't want to either.

Get with the times, old man.
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#14 Jan 22 2011 at 10:05 PM Rating: Decent
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i don't understand, up until this post it seemed everyone wanted a more group based leveling system but now it seems everyone wants to just quest and not have to grind at all? really what is the difference between going out and grinding with a group of people non-stop or grinding a certain number of something then having to stop and go back to an npc before doing it again? i just cant figure out what everyone expects SE to do? there is no way to make both of these things possible since no matter what, whichever one is faster is going to be what everyone will do thus making the other way nothing more than a waste of SE's time to develop it. i personal do not want to spend days upon days grinding again but i also don't want to do solo quests for ever, but i also know that for them to make fun quests we can do in groups for every level is both going to take them forever and cause huge "walls" for the people that do not play often and have a hard time finding a group of these quest. so in the end i vote for keeping what we have and making the "old style" group up and grind have better rewards. just use quests for getting items and access to new areas and what not, like the system that worked so well in ffxi for all those years.
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#15 Jan 22 2011 at 10:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
While I agree with you on this Aurelius, I think you're ignoring the fact that players consume content much faster than developers can implement it. The only reason MMOs currently exist is due to grinds, timesinks, and <100% drop rates. To make leveling up as "fun" as end-game, developers would have to design complex content at all level stages. When you consider the typical player remains at a particular early/mid-game level for only a few days or weeks, it's just not practical to develop such fleeting content. Or rather, no one has figured out a leveling system that remains fun and new for years and years. Even WoW style quest leveling gets old when you realize all they did was change the NPC and mob names. Instead, MMOs rely on end-game content to keep players paying for years and years. The leveling up process becomes the necessary evil in order to reach end-game.

Now if SE had spent the last 5 years productively working on content to fit MMO progression, they very well could have made leveling up fun and slow at the same time. But they didn't. And now is not the time to try to re-invent the MMO with FFXIV. Party based grinding worked in the past, and solo based quest grinding is the modern fad. SE just needs to decide which route they'll take. But trying to develop party based quest leveling up content is probably not their best use of resources right now.


I don't disagree with you in the sense that no matter what a developer...any developer...does, there's always going to be an element of repetition. That's when we MMO gamers start using the word "grind". The issue is that grouping specifically to grind mobs for SP is horribly unimaginative. Other developers have come up with far more entertaining ways to occupy groups than just running off to some spot in the world and slaughtering open world mobs. And for SE to take a step way back in the evolution of the genre to cater to such a minority niche as those who still thin grouping to grind generic mobs for leveling is the cat's meow would be a tragedy. Sure, quest centric leveling gets old, but at least it allows for a measure of diversity. I don't recall ever getting any one quest that involved grinding on the same mobs for hours and hours. If you want to do that, you can. Or if you want to do some of the quests but not all of them, you can. That's the one thing people who criticize quest-centric leveling always conveniently omit is that there's nothing in those systems that says you can't just flat grind if you want to, but most people don't want to so they go the quest route. And that says a lot. You're given two basic options: quest or grind. Just look at the option most people pick.
#16 Jan 22 2011 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm all for bringing bk the old style/ffxi party xp'ng. Dont get me wrong Leve linking parties are fun but they lack a few things ffxi parties had, one of them being job skill!.

A major part of leveling in a 6 man party in ffxi ,was you had to know your job the help the party function properly.Knowing who to haste, when to cure, which weapon skills did what skill chain, who to SATA....and so on, all of this made the grind more rewarding! All of this is missing in the current party set up in xiv, with up to 15ppls the mobs dies in seconds and the buffs wear in minutes! as a mage I get to stand there and aoe heal, I mean even paralyze doesnt last long enough to aoe paralyna!

IMO the fights should be slowed down, give the mob more HP so we can stratagise on them!
There is no skill in button bashing : (




Edited, Jan 22nd 2011 11:31pm by Embershayze
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#18 Jan 22 2011 at 10:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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People want more group-based content, not more group-based grind. The difference is that group-based content typically has a goal beyond obtaining exp/sp, like getting powerful items or advancing a storyline.

The issue here is that there are some people still lingering around that want to bring back the bad ol' days of grouping up to level, just like in FFXI. Not just that, but they want to do it in the most boring way ******* possible: just grind mobs repeatedly for no other purpose than to obtain exp/sp.
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#19 Jan 22 2011 at 10:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
I don't disagree with you in the sense that no matter what a developer...any developer...does, there's always going to be an element of repetition. That's when we MMO gamers start using the word "grind". The issue is that grouping specifically to grind mobs for SP is horribly unimaginative. Other developers have come up with far more entertaining ways to occupy groups than just running off to some spot in the world and slaughtering open world mobs. And for SE to take a step way back in the evolution of the genre to cater to such a minority niche as those who still thin grouping to grind generic mobs for leveling is the cat's meow would be a tragedy. Sure, quest centric leveling gets old, but at least it allows for a measure of diversity. I don't recall ever getting any one quest that involved grinding on the same mobs for hours and hours. If you want to do that, you can. Or if you want to do some of the quests but not all of them, you can. That's the one thing people who criticize quest-centric leveling always conveniently omit is that there's nothing in those systems that says you can't just flat grind if you want to, but most people don't want to so they go the quest route. And that says a lot. You're given two basic options: quest or grind. Just look at the option most people pick.


People don't pick the quest option because it's more "fun", don't fool yourself. They pick it because it's by far the most efficient exp/hr option. Granted I didn't play WoW, but I did play LoTRO for a few years. In LoTRO you leveled up via quests just like how I'm told you level up in WoW. And yes you could level up by grinding mobs, but it would take you at least ten times longer. It was utterly impractical to level up by grinding not because it wasn't "fun", but because that's just how the game was designed.

As far as I know, no game developer has even tried (successfully or not) to equate quest leveling with mob grind leveling. So saying that quest leveling is better because it's more popular in games that drastically bias quest leveling is, well, biased.

If SE could find a way to fairly equate solo quest leveling with party grind leveling, I'm honestly not sure which would be more popular. I have a hunch there would be a significant playerbase in each field.
#20 Jan 22 2011 at 10:28 PM Rating: Decent
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It all boils down to what do you want to do in a group and what do you want to solo.

For me it falls down to this. DISCLAIMER: these are just my opinions and I not going to change them just in case someone wants to argue my point of view.

Solo:
XP for those who have limited time to play.
Quest/Story-line.
Crafting and harvesting.

Party:
XP for those who have a healthy amount of time to play.
Dungeons runs.
PvP.
Raids.
Behest, NM, and other crazy random battles.

I too have played DC Online and like some of the features it has into it. For one if I attack a quest mob someone else is fight I get credit and loot. They is a healthy balance of solo and party options. Leveling isn't a chore and the chain of quest are unique little stories. The fact that I don't have to official join a group to enjoy playing with other people.
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#21 Jan 22 2011 at 10:45 PM Rating: Good
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After some thought, a nap, and a weird dream in a place I'm pretty sure I've been in another life... I think I know why I miss group grinding. I made so many friends doing it that I never would have otherwise.

In FFXIV I've grouped up a few times for behest and leves, but they're over so quickly and so boring with no real teamwork. Once it's done everyone says peace and in most cases for me, never says another word to one another. In FFXI you were forced to stick it out with these people. Sometimes 5 strangers and I would grind for 3 or 4 hours in the same group. It was almost inevitable that some of those people became friends I kept for 4 or 5 years in the game. A couple I even went to visit if I was in Hawaii or LA.

Not really pushing for the game to go in that direction (it really won't, nothing to worry about), just a thought.
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#22 Jan 22 2011 at 11:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
People don't pick the quest option because it's more "fun", don't fool yourself. They pick it because it's by far the most efficient exp/hr option. Granted I didn't play WoW, but I did play LoTRO for a few years. In LoTRO you leveled up via quests just like how I'm told you level up in WoW. And yes you could level up by grinding mobs, but it would take you at least ten times longer. It was utterly impractical to level up by grinding not because it wasn't "fun", but because that's just how the game was designed.


I've played LOTRO and WoW, and "10 times longer" is a horrible exaggeration. In order for it to be an accurate statement, you'd have to get ten times the xp from turning in the quest than you would get from killing the mobs associated with that quest. It just doesn't happen and you do yourself (and the argument) no favors by exaggerating like that. Before Blizzard rescaled quest xp rewards, there was plenty of demonstrated math to show that grinding could still be faster xp than questing, but people still opted to quest the majority of the time. That's just fact.
#23 Jan 22 2011 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
I've played LOTRO and WoW, and "10 times longer" is a horrible exaggeration. In order for it to be an accurate statement, you'd have to get ten times the xp from turning in the quest than you would get from killing the mobs associated with that quest. It just doesn't happen and you do yourself (and the argument) no favors by exaggerating like that. Before Blizzard rescaled quest xp rewards, there was plenty of demonstrated math to show that grinding could still be faster xp than questing, but people still opted to quest the majority of the time. That's just fact.


Could you link these "demonstrated maths"? I'm curious to know what kind of circumstances you'd have to fill to actually get more exp/hr grinding than questing in these games. Maybe WoW was more grind friendly, but in LoTRO you simply couldn't find high-density mob respawns to support party-centric grinding. The landscape was simply designed for the solo explorer, not the party based grinder.
#24 Jan 22 2011 at 11:10 PM Rating: Good
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Transmigration wrote:
After some thought, a nap, and a weird dream in a place I'm pretty sure I've been in another life... I think I know why I miss group grinding. I made so many friends doing it that I never would have otherwise.

In FFXIV I've grouped up a few times for behest and leves, but they're over so quickly and so boring with no real teamwork. Once it's done everyone says peace and in most cases for me, never says another word to one another. In FFXI you were forced to stick it out with these people. Sometimes 5 strangers and I would grind for 3 or 4 hours in the same group. It was almost inevitable that some of those people became friends I kept for 4 or 5 years in the game. A couple I even went to visit if I was in Hawaii or LA.

Not really pushing for the game to go in that direction (it really won't, nothing to worry about), just a thought.


Actually this is happening in FFXIV too. When you start doing rank30 guildleves (at about r23) you'll be forced to do them in big parties of at least 10 ppl and it takes at least 2h per camp to do them all. After a couple of resets you'll notie that you are doing them always with the same ppl, since once some1 knows all the leves of a camp he tend to do them always in the same place. Basically you'll find yourself in a static guildleve party even if you didn't want it ^^'.

I think this system is much more social then the one in XI, since if you want to make party with some of your friends there's no way they will be left out of party because of their class or because the party is full and i can say both this things were happening a lot of times back in XI

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 12:10am by alcide
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#25 Jan 22 2011 at 11:27 PM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
I've played LOTRO and WoW, and "10 times longer" is a horrible exaggeration. In order for it to be an accurate statement, you'd have to get ten times the xp from turning in the quest than you would get from killing the mobs associated with that quest. It just doesn't happen and you do yourself (and the argument) no favors by exaggerating like that. Before Blizzard rescaled quest xp rewards, there was plenty of demonstrated math to show that grinding could still be faster xp than questing, but people still opted to quest the majority of the time. That's just fact.


Could you link these "demonstrated maths"? I'm curious to know what kind of circumstances you'd have to fill to actually get more exp/hr grinding than questing in these games. Maybe WoW was more grind friendly, but in LoTRO you simply couldn't find high-density mob respawns to support party-centric grinding. The landscape was simply designed for the solo explorer, not the party based grinder.


I'm not talking about party grinding. I'm talking about grinding solo vs. questing solo. Grouping in those games is an entirely separate scenario and content is provided specifically for groups featuring elite mobs that are not only tuned to be fought by parties, but award substantially more xp than non-elite mobs. I'm not digging through years of forum posts and threads to find the ones where people illustrated the math, but you shouldn't need a link to a spreadsheet to have it made clear to you that if you kill 20 mobs for 1000xp each and then turn in the quest for another 20000xp, you're not getting 10 times the xp and therefore leveling 10 times faster. And if you account for travel time, you're not even leveling at double the speed questing vs. grinding. And that was the basis for the demonstration...that if you could find a camp with mobs you could kill quickly with little downtime and grind, you'd actually come out ahead of the guy who runs back and forth between quest spots and quest hubs.

I've tried straight grinding in both LOTRO and WoW and it wasn't the pace of progression that steered me back to questing, it was the mountain of dull. If SE wanted to enable practical, functional group grinding on generic mobs in FFXIV, they would have to implement a very convoluted dynamic mob tuning system because mobs that are tuned to be fought in groups are very different from simply higher level solo mobs.
#26 Jan 22 2011 at 11:34 PM Rating: Good
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As much as I'm dreading the rate downs for this, why not take hints from WOW and Aion's models?

They give options for both solo and group play. Solo play generally awards faster leveling, but worse gear and attunements/unlocks/whatever. Group play is slower in leveling, but gives great, great gear and grouping experience.

If SE doesn't want to do instanced dungeons, for which I understand the counter arguments, then it's possible to do outdoor "elite" areas similar to what Aion does with areas like Mist Mane Village. That way, there's an area where you can go do the traditional group grind and get good item rewards while you're at it, and also options if you don't want to or can't get a group.
#27 Jan 22 2011 at 11:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Could you link these "demonstrated maths"? I'm curious to know what kind of circumstances you'd have to fill to actually get more exp/hr grinding than questing in these games.


The old WoW forums are gone, so any math that was done is likely long gone, if not irrelevant because of the recent changes to the game. However, all you really needed to maximize exp gain while grinding was a class with an AoE (usually a caster; mages were best) and enough game knowledge to pick decent camps (ones without casters or ranged attackers, for instance). It was then just a matter of gathering them up and AoEing them down. Respawns weren't usually an issue since most camps were coded to have a minimum population. So if you gathered up the 12 mobs at a camp and AoE'd them down, 4 of those killed would repop instantly, allowing you to chain-pull mobs in groups of 4 until you got low on health, ran out of mana, or were otherwise depleted of resources that you had to stop and rest for a moment. This was faster than questing because you could just plant yourself in one spot for several levels and kill stuff non-stop, with no travel involved.

Additionally, for a long time, instance grinding was preferable if you had a stable group, since chaining instances not only netted you more exp/hr, but you also got you a lot more gold, cloth, and rare equipment to use. However, Blizzard changed this in Cataclysm because people were going into instances via the dungeon finder and coming out of them only to discover that they'd outleveled the zone they were in while doing the dungeon, which I'm guessing killed the experience for people for some reason.
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#28 Jan 22 2011 at 11:46 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
It just doesn't happen and you do yourself (and the argument) no favors by exaggerating like that. Before Blizzard rescaled quest xp rewards, there was plenty of demonstrated math to show that grinding could still be faster xp than questing, but people still opted to quest the majority of the time. That's just fact.


But quests also give money... and good equipment... and fame... and open other quests that give more of the aforementioned... so I don't think quests and grinding are equal, exaggeration or not.
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#29 Jan 22 2011 at 11:53 PM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
But quests also give money... and good equipment... and fame... and open other quests that give more of the aforementioned... so I don't think quests and grinding are equal, exaggeration or not.


You still got money, and equipment, trade goods, and in some cases you got rep as well. You also had more of a chance to get a rare or an epic world drop, simply because you were killing more mobs than the questing crowd. That wasn't really the point of grinding though; the point was to maximize your exp/hr.
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#30 Jan 23 2011 at 12:10 AM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:

As long as they don't remove SP from mobs, it always will be. It seems that DCU and champions online are the only games that give 1-10EXP per mob, when quests give thousands.


DDO is another MMORPG that doesn't give any xp (or very little) for random mobs. It gives a chunk of xp for completing the quest. The amount of XP varies with player level, difficulty level (can be selected for each quest), and objectives completed during the quest. You can solo most of the quests on the easier difficulty settings, but for the more difficult settings it's almost required to be in a party, but it also yields more bonus xp.

I found DDO to be very fun.



Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 12:12am by Threx
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#31 Jan 23 2011 at 12:10 AM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
It just doesn't happen and you do yourself (and the argument) no favors by exaggerating like that. Before Blizzard rescaled quest xp rewards, there was plenty of demonstrated math to show that grinding could still be faster xp than questing, but people still opted to quest the majority of the time. That's just fact.


But quests also give money... and good equipment... and fame... and open other quests that give more of the aforementioned... so I don't think quests and grinding are equal, exaggeration or not.


Mobs drop vendor trash. That's the equivalent of money. They also drop equipment, and since most quest rewards end up being sold to vendors, it works out about the same in terms of profit and if you really want/"need" an upgrade you can poke around for quests that offer one between grinds. Grinding mobs also yields more crafting mats than questing, meaning that if you chose your camps, grinding could be more profitable in the long run. Rep is a different issue. Allowing you to grind rep solo would largely trivialize the process, as rep grinds were moved to dailies and group content with TBC just like how faction credits only come from leves in FFXIV. It's not going to be a 1:1 comparison, and the point is simply that people try to downplay the fact that people quest instead of grind because most people find questing to be more fun. That's all there is to it. I'd rather go kill 10 of <a> and then go over there and kill 12 of <b> and gather 6 items from <c> in that area and then go over there and kill 10 of <d> and 8 of <e> than stand in one spot and kill 50 of <f>. And the feedback MMO developers get form their players is that most people feel the same way.

Of course, "most" is not "all", but that doesn't mean straight grinding is something a contemporary developer is going to get away with trying to push on their players. And if you offer incentive for straight grinding in groups over whatever solo players are getting, what do you offer for rewards for objective-based group content? Even more than what a solo player gets? Do you really think alienating solo players by building this massive discrepancy between generic solo content and organized, objective-based group content is going to make enough people happy for it to be labeled a smart business move?

This isn't about, "I like this so let's pull all kinds of rationalizations out of my *** as to why a developer should do it." It comes down to the big picture and whether or not it's going to draw and keep subscribers. The developers themselves might be all about making the game this or making the game that, but at the end of the day it's still folks like Wada keeping them accountable to the business end of things. And taking a dated concept like group grinding and trying to make it appealing by offering this incentive or that is just going to alienate a very large group of people. I don't care if anyone wants to face that fact or not. Avoiding it doesn't make it any less of a fact.

I have no problem with people who want to group all the time. I never have. Where they start to get ridiculous is when they start concocting all these bonuses and extras they want to see because they're in a group without thought or regard for what it would do to an MMO as a whole in this day and age. There's room for some incentive, but you can't even bring it up without some lunatic going off the wall and insisting that ************** group content needs to be way, way better than anything you do solo and and and...

Do it because you like to do it and ask that it allows you to progress at a reasonable rate. People don't need to compare it to this guy or that guy and what they're doing. If it's fun and accessible, people will do it. If it sucks, you're on your own.
#32 Jan 23 2011 at 1:47 AM Rating: Decent
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I am also playing DC universe right now, and the content quests that FFXIVer seem to want exist here, and let me say that, i am not even enjoying them either, i rather have leve system.
Um... wow, just wow. You played DC Universe Online and hated the one thing about the game that I thought was it's crowning achievement. There's an abundance of story missions that you can undertake. They each have their own lore, and unique villains. They also have interesting boss fights as opposed to the 'spam every attack you have' type you usually find in MMOs, And you thought that was a bad thing?

Just goes to show, there's no pleasing everyone.

Personally, I loved DC Universe's quest-to-level concept. There's a wealth of missions on offer, so you're never bored and unlike so many games with their 'insert generic boss type' these are well thought out enemies with their own twist to them. Taking out Superman, for example, requires you to weaken him temporarily with kryptonite. Battling against Queen Bee involves dodging her pollen and dealing with mind-controlled guards who would otherwise assist you during the fight. That's just two examples and there are tons of bosses in DCU. Honestly, I don't understand why you dislike it so much.

Ahem, but back to the topic in hand. I really miss questing. I miss it so much that it pained me greatly when I discovered that not only do we not have any regular quests in FFXIV, but neither do Levequests offer XP or SP rewards upon completion. And you know why it pains me? Because grinding the same monsters over and over again is neither fun nor rewarding.

Levequests are a means to an end. You do them to level. I doubt anyone here is there for the gripping storylines or even reads them prior to accepting the mission. Most people just look at the rewards, rank level and the target mobs. FFXI was a different beast. There were real tactics to combat, requiring a good party setup and plenty of locations where you could happily grind away on target enemies. XP chains made the tactical combat faster paced, with people trying to kill them fast so they could maintain high chains. I stilly happily remember my chain #201 in King Ranperre's Tomb in a 'bones' party.

The point is, right now FFXIV doesn't have enough monsters to be able to do that effectively. Where there are clusters of enemies ripe for camping it tends to be overcamped and only good for a few ranks. This is why we need to avoid the grind mentality for FFXIV. Bring back quests with SP rewards so we can choose how we want to level rather than have grinds forced down our throats.

TL;DR DC Universe's missions were great. FFXIV leves are no match for proper quests with XP rewards.
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#33 Jan 23 2011 at 2:33 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah I definitely miss the early ffxiv/ffxi party grind style sp system.

I got conjurer to 50 with that system, and it was a lot of fun. Ever since they changed it, the only battle job I've leveled was thm from 10-20, and it was meh. I really haven't even been playing FFXIV much anymore, except for nm runs, because the solo grind is just boring, and the leves are just meh.

A party grind with tough mobs that keep you on your toes is the best way to level in my book. And since I've already tasted it, it's hard to settle for anything else. It sounds like they might change it back thankfully, but if they don't, I'll just play w/e content they put out with a gimped subjob, and when they raise the cap, form a party grind group and level that way, even if it's far less sp per hour than solo'ing leves/mobs would be. At least it's fun.

I'm not playing this game so I can troll around about how big my epeen is like some of those WoW players, nor am I playing so I can sit and grind solo stuff for hours. I want a group experience, when I want a solo experience, I'll play something that isn't a massively multiplayer online game, duh.
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#34 Jan 23 2011 at 3:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd love to see group based grinding in XIV. It was one of my favorite things about XI, and it's where I met most of my friends in the game.

I'd like to see the combat system changed from the "spammy" mentality pace of WoW to the more deliberate and skill-based combat of XI. Even at low levels, monsters in XI mostly all had different "personalities". Crawlers would slow/poison you. Bees could final sting kill you. Goblins had bomb toss. Beastmen all had different abilities that made them feel unique, etc. Right now in XI I feel like whether I kill a marmot, a dodo, a wisp or an imp, it's all the same fight. I don't know the name of a single TP move monsters have because they all seem to have similar animations, with similar damage. Even monsters that cast magic are barely noticeable, because it seems to deal the same amount of damage as regular monster hits. **** even Cactuars die so fast I've never seen 1000 needles yet. Granted my Conjurer is only in its mid 20s and I hear its a bit more varied at higher levels, I still find it concerning.

It would be nice if they could tune the monsters to be more challenging, more unique. Even in solo play, I'd prefer the fights last longer than the 10 seconds it takes to fire off 2-3 spells before moving on the next target. Just adjust SP gain accordingly. Stronger monsters with adequate camps and enemy placements could allow people to group up and fight in more skill-based encounters. There's no better way to learn how to play a class than by grouping and using it in situations where you depend on others, and they depend on you.

Pair this up with robust single player content, which is what XI lacked for the longest time, and I think it left a stigma that parties are horrible and hard to find etc. If they leave the solo abilities as they are, paired with the leves, there would be plenty of content to keep both crowds happy.

As for questing for exp, I'm not against it, but personally I much prefer to have a handful of well-developed, interesting quests/missions than 3000 copy/pasted fetch quests. I had more fun questing in XI than I did in WoW, even if the rewards for it were really lacking in most cases.
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#35 Jan 23 2011 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Quanta wrote:
So instead of doing quests that are mildly entertaining, you'd rather return to a merciless grind because, while it may be more boring, at least it's more social! Am I understanding this correctly?

I'd rather have my genitals put through a meat slicer than return to pure grind.


Ostia wrote:
Grinding grinding like back in the day ? No just no, now if it was a grind in the sense that leaves would require that you party up in order to complete them(For difficulty or w/e reason) then good.

But heavy grind style .... nah


KujaKoF wrote:
I highly doubt there are enough people who want to grind in a party as the primary source of EXP/SP to sustain a subscription game.


MajidahSihaam wrote:
I think grinding should be an option ... as it is with coblyns, but with more variate and stronger mobs that require teamwork.
Without a good search system looking for people for a leve isn't really that good... the ammount of time you'd spend looking for people you could have used grinding for more sp.


I agree with these folks and the others who I refuse to quote becuase that would be quite a bit of people on this thread. No one is missing your point like Aur said...sorry old school grinding from XI sucks...that is why when this game came out, I quit XI. For someone like me, I just don't have time, and to ask to turn this game into an XI type grinding...no, just no. IDK about you, but I actually have a real life to worry about. I want my gaming exp to be fun...not worrying about "Okay Main healer...check! DD, Check!..Now where the **** are the tanks!?"....No thank you....and don't even say many of us are spoiled by WoW...I NEVER even played WoW. If you want XI type grinding, then do us all a favor and go back to playing XI...or better yet, go play Ever Crack (Ever Quest), I hear that game has tons of grinding from level 1+... I wouldn't know never played it, that's just what I hear.

I would be ****** if Yoshi even thought about implementing XI type grinding as a main way to level...I would most likely quit...I honstly just don't have time...no time...no time...no....time...

And like Aur, said, you CAN grinde in 14....just don't do leves, and good luck finding someone who wants to kick it old school, I am sure there are those out there who do, but the search for thos is just going to be a hassle without a good search function...
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#36 Jan 23 2011 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I would really like to see group grinding.

What made it work for FFXI?

1. There was MUCH more storyline/content to set goals upon.

2. Very dynamic party setups

3. Striving for non-stop pulling.

4. Skills/Abilities interacted with other players skills/abilities

5. Change of scenery every 10 or so levels

6. A better feel of progression

I didn't feel like it was grinding. To me it felt like playing a Final Fantasy to achieve many goals.

I felt a much more grinding feeling playing FF7 to reach level 99, so I could complete all the side-quests than compared to FFXI.

Chow

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 11:05am by SplatterPattern
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#37 Jan 23 2011 at 10:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Long rant mode on.

Personally, I don't understand why people buy an MMO and then expect to play alone most of the time. Why would you ever buy an MMO if you want to play alone? Buy a single-layer game instead! It's more fun and the gameplay is actually optimized for a single player!

The reason people quest in WoW/WAR/Aion/whatever modern MMO is not because questing alone is more fun, it's because questing alone is more fun than grinding alone. End game bosses in WoW are more fun than solo quests, no? Why is that? Because you're doing team work! The gameplay in current MMOs is too rigid to provide fun if you don't expand the situation to encompass a whole team of players. When you're alone it's mostly just about numbers and not so much about the actions of the player.

Lately I've been trying Cataclysm and Rift and before that I tested WAR. All of these have almost identical quest based progression and I don't even read the quests. I don't know why random NPC wants to free the moles or why another random NPC wants me to kill X amount of birdmen, and frankly, I don't care. Their existence is an insignificant drop in the ocean and I just want to get my exp and move on. I just go to every NPC with a ! on their heads, click the accept buttons, look at the map and head for the nearest quest marker. Rinse and repeat. Every enemy feels the same: They're weak, a threat only when ganging up on me. I could try to interrupt their casts and whatever but why bother when it makes no difference? That spell, whatever it is, isn't going to as much as dent me, let alone make me react to it in any way. Even if I take 10% more damage from non-optimal play, my character regens so fast it makes zero difference. It is just so very, very dull when the game gives you no meaningful feedback. It doesn't reward excellence or penalize failure, it's just kind of an endless sea of gray mush.

I really liked leveling in the pre-2006 era of FFXI. Groups required cooperation rather than spamming your stuff independently. You weren't playing alone together like is so common in other MMOs. Sure, the grind could sometimes get get annoying, but after the first exp curve nerfs it wasn't too bad. You still got to see new, usually quite beautiful or otherwise interesting, areas and new mobs often enough to help alleviate the boredom. In many areas there was also a real risk of death and even the journey to the camp could be perilous. It was just so much more exciting than what we have in current gen hand-holding MMOs.

This is where people point out that they have no desire to wait an hour to get a group. That's where I point out that I'd rather wait an hour to have fun than to endlessly wade through mediocrity because there is no possibility for fun regardless of how long I wait. I played THF to a high level in FFXI, I know what waiting for a group is. I definitely do. Did I get frustrated at times? You bet I did, but at least I had something to look forward to, something to prepare for so that I could be my very best when the time comes. Reputation mattered, you see, and being a good party member was a great way to stand out when people built parties. In WoW I know there's just going to be another quest hub with another set of trivial tasks for me to perform. Every time I group up in WoW I know none of the other guys and I probably won't see them again. This is also why they often play terribly and ninja all your stuff.

Long rant mode off.



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#38 Jan 23 2011 at 10:31 AM Rating: Default
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I really liked leveling in the pre-2006 era of FFXI. Groups required cooperation rather than spamming your stuff independently. You weren't playing alone together like is so common in other MMOs. Sure, the grind could sometimes get get annoying, but after the first exp curve nerfs it wasn't too bad. You still got to see new, usually quite beautiful or otherwise interesting, areas and new mobs often enough to help alleviate the boredom. In many areas there was also a real risk of death and even the journey to the camp could be perilous. It was just so much more exciting than what we have in current gen hand-holding MMOs.

This is where people point out that they have no desire to wait an hour to get a group. That's where I point out that I'd rather wait an hour to have fun than to endlessly wade through mediocrity because there is no possibility for fun regardless of how long I wait.


I'd rather not have neither as they both come with horrible downsides, but that's just me.

An hour to get a group... so lucky.

Quote:
group leves


This is what needs to happen.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 7:33pm by Hyanmen
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#39 Jan 23 2011 at 10:46 AM Rating: Good
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AkumaOokami wrote:
Why can't we just have both?

For those that want to solo, they can go do their leves.

For those that want to party grind, they can.

Why can't we have this?!


because when they tried to do this, the people who wanted a party grind got upset that the people were soloing could do as well as them. They feel they're special because they are tackling "harder" content, even when they're not because the game is tuned for it.

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#40 Jan 23 2011 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:
Long rant mode on.

Personally, I don't understand why people buy an MMO and then expect to play alone most of the time. Why would you ever buy an MMO if you want to play alone? Buy a single-layer game instead! It's more fun and the gameplay is actually optimized for a single player!


An MMO doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. Maybe some people like the idea of a persistent world where they can occasionally meet up with friends or show off their progress. MMOs, like other genres, have evolved since the mid-late 90's. The theme park comparison is an excellent one; MMOs have to cater to more than just one type of player. An MMO that only offers one gimmick is an MMO that will likely not see any success today.

Quote:
The reason people quest in WoW/WAR/Aion/whatever modern MMO is not because questing alone is more fun, it's because questing alone is more fun than grinding alone. End game bosses in WoW are more fun than solo quests, no? Why is that? Because you're doing team work! The gameplay in current MMOs is too rigid to provide fun if you don't expand the situation to encompass a whole team of players. When you're alone it's mostly just about numbers and not so much about the actions of the player.


I want to say that most people want goal-oriented leveling regardless of being solo or in a group. Getting a group, finding a camp somewhere, and grinding out monsters is something that most people would rather skip out on and instead do something like, say, a dungeon or group quest or anything that's not as monotonous.

Quote:
Lately I've been trying Cataclysm and Rift and before that I tested WAR. All of these have almost identical quest based progression and I don't even read the quests. I don't know why random NPC wants to free the moles or why another random NPC wants me to kill X amount of birdmen, and frankly, I don't care. Their existence is an insignificant drop in the ocean and I just want to get my exp and move on. I just go to every NPC with a ! on their heads, click the accept buttons, look at the map and head for the nearest quest marker. Rinse and repeat. Every enemy feels the same: They're weak, a threat only when ganging up on me. I could try to interrupt their casts and whatever but why bother when it makes no difference? That spell, whatever it is, isn't going to as much as dent me, let alone make me react to it in any way. Even if I take 10% more damage from non-optimal play, my character regens so fast it makes zero difference. It is just so very, very dull when the game gives you no meaningful feedback. It doesn't reward excellence or penalize failure, it's just kind of an endless sea of gray mush.


To each his own. I've been reading quest text in every MMO I played and I found that it enriched my experience. Yeah maybe when you take a single quest out of context, like "go kill 10 orcs here", it doesn't make sense. But when you look at the quests that preceded it and the quests that will follow it, you start to see some pretty interesting story-driven leveling done through quest chains. It's nice to have option of getting lore tidbits while leveling, even if it requires you to actually read stuff.

Quote:
I really liked leveling in the pre-2006 era of FFXI. Groups required cooperation rather than spamming your stuff independently. You weren't playing alone together like is so common in other MMOs. Sure, the grind could sometimes get get annoying, but after the first exp curve nerfs it wasn't too bad. You still got to see new, usually quite beautiful or otherwise interesting, areas and new mobs often enough to help alleviate the boredom. In many areas there was also a real risk of death and even the journey to the camp could be perilous. It was just so much more exciting than what we have in current gen hand-holding MMOs.

This is where people point out that they have no desire to wait an hour to get a group. That's where I point out that I'd rather wait an hour to have fun than to endlessly wade through mediocrity because there is no possibility for fun regardless of how long I wait. I played THF to a high level in FFXI, I know what waiting for a group is. I definitely do. Did I get frustrated at times? You bet I did, but at least I had something to look forward to, something to prepare for so that I could be my very best when the time comes. Reputation mattered, you see, and being a good party member was a great way to stand out when people built parties. In WoW I know there's just going to be another quest hub with another set of trivial tasks for me to perform. Every time I group up in WoW I know none of the other guys and I probably won't see them again. This is also why they often play terribly and ninja all your stuff.

Long rant mode off.


As much as I liked FFXI, the leveling in it was the worst thing out of any game I have ever played. The only thing I was looking forward to in FFXI was NOT having to level again, which is why I only took one job to 75. You got to fight maybe 10% of available monster species, as the levelup camps only revolved around monsters that were deemed to be easy fights. When you had one or two crappy players in your group, your exp/hour bottomed out and god forbid you wiped, because then you quite literally could make negative progress. Similarly, you got to see maybe 10% of what the world offered while leveling; if you wanted to see other stuff, you had to go shout in Jeuno/Whitegate for questing/mission groups.

And good luck if you were an unpopular class and didn't have much time at your disposal. If you weren't prepared to put in 5+ hour sessions of the game, 3-4 hours of which were spent doing nothing but waiting, you were not going to get anywhere. More than half of the time that I logged into FFXI was spent AFKing and waiting, which is complete ********* That's a system that a huge amount of people would rather not see again.
#41 Jan 23 2011 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
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An MMO doesn't mean the same thing to everyone.

MMOs, like other genres, have evolved since the mid-late 90's.

MMOs have to cater to more than just one type of player.


These are the points I want to discuss.

Firstly, an MMO doesn't mean the same thing to everyone- this is important.

Now, you say that "MMO's have evolved since the late 90's" which is not entirely accurate. As much as there is progress in this genre, there is also devolution. Devolution that is not really justified, and touches the first point.

The devolution completely disregards one group of players that have different opinion as to what MMO is and what it should be. The devolution of socialization.

It is also quite clear that an MMO doesn't -have- to cater to these type of players, but it is also clear that an MMO that caters to these type of players do not have to cater to the players that regard persistent, lively world filled with NPC's and scripted events as more important and "immersive" features.

This does not have to be the only "gimmick" in the game, it is just exchanging one gimmick for the other, keeping the status-quo similar.

Some people (the group of players I am talking about) value socialization in the game more than how lively the world itself is and that you can be an Army of One if you so desire.

But they have no agenda to socialize- which is important for someone living in a Western individualistic society. Without agenda, we do not socialize, and most MMO's do not offer that agenda. Why? Because it goes against the ideal of Army of One thinking and individualistic principles. You do not need the help of anyone.

These two groups thinking clashes with each other. You can't realistically have both. You can't be an Army of One and on the other hand need the help of someone else for most tasks you do.

This gives the player a sense of purpose in the game world. You are needed, and you need others. You have your place and an agenda to socialize, so it happens naturally.

It also means inconvenience, so compromises are needed. That inconvenience will turn off those that do not care about this kind of immersion, and would rather see the world around them immerse them, not really the people that reside in it. XI nor this game isn't for them, but there are more than enough alternatives, current and upcoming.

On the other hand the lack of an agenda will turn off those that do not care about the game world immersing them. People such as Omena.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 8:38pm by Hyanmen
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#42 Jan 23 2011 at 11:44 AM Rating: Decent
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It also means inconvenience, so compromises are needed.


And to touch on this point, XI did not have enough compromises. It was very inconvenient, so much even that it turned off those that were genuinely immersed by the socialization. It went too far.

Which is why I don't personally want to see it happen again in XIV. Compromises are needed now. Whether that means easier fights to make the group size and set-up less relevant (which in turn makes finding a group easier) or homogenization of classes (which in turn makes it so you are not stuck looking for a single class that can perform at role X) or something else entirely is debatable.

It is also up for debate as to whether they should make us grind monsters in the group or grind quests in the group. I like my small goals to accomplish, but I realize that the GL system needs more work to become objectively better option than monster grinding. I'd like to give the system that chance, myself.

And to add to the homogenization part, which I think needs more explaining...

What I mean here is that classes can perform various roles, but unlike now, they do it in a more distinctive, different ways. We could call it a "theme" of the class. "A Dark knight" themed class would deal damage in a true DRK fashion and tank as well (whatever that could mean). "A Paladin" themed class would deal damage in a PLD'ish fashion and tank as well.

Equipment can be added to further enhance the identity of these classes, as well as the storylines that expand their lore.

Right now we have few mechanics that support this kind of thinking, but the developers aren't making use of them, sadly.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 9:00pm by Hyanmen
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#43 Jan 23 2011 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
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Wolfums wrote:

Getting a group, finding a camp somewhere, and grinding out monsters is something that most people would rather skip out on and instead do something like, say, a dungeon or group quest or anything that's not as monotonous.

I don't really see the difference. Just yesterday I was doing DM runs in WoW and after the second run I was pretty much completely fed up for the day and it didn't take long. Only the bosses offered some momentary enjoyment while the trash pulls felt just like that; trash.

I think at least partially it comes down to pacing. WoW has a much faster tempo, so it builds fatigue over time. As play fatigue goes up, the content has to stimulate you more to keep you interested.

Quote:

To each his own. I've been reading quest text in every MMO I played and I found that it enriched my experience. Yeah maybe when you take a single quest out of context, like "go kill 10 orcs here", it doesn't make sense. But when you look at the quests that preceded it and the quests that will follow it, you start to see some pretty interesting story-driven leveling done through quest chains. It's nice to have option of getting lore tidbits while leveling, even if it requires you to actually read stuff.

I did this back when this stuff was new at WoW launch. By the time my second and eventual main character hit the late 50s, I was already done with questing and didn't want to do another one for as long as I live. I've been very selective with which quests I read since then as there are just so, so many and nothing stands out. It's kind of like how advertising has fallen in effectiveness because of how much of it there is in today's world.

Quote:

And good luck if you were an unpopular class and didn't have much time at your disposal. If you weren't prepared to put in 5+ hour sessions of the game, 3-4 hours of which were spent doing nothing but waiting, you were not going to get anywhere. More than half of the time that I logged into FFXI was spent AFKing and waiting, which is complete bullsh*t. That's a system that a huge amount of people would rather not see again.

I'm not going to pretend this wasn't an issue, however, I haven't been able to come up with a perfect solution other than try to encourage an even class role distribution so there are less bottle necks as far as group building goes. In any case, by the divine grace of the Windower, you could do other things while waiting for stuff to happen. I actually would have quit on the spot if Windower was taken down. It was so important to my enjoyment of the game.

@Hyan
I disagree with you more often than not, but that latest post was very good. Keep it up.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 1:30pm by Omena
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#44 Jan 23 2011 at 12:09 PM Rating: Default
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I disagree with you more often than not, but that latest post was very good. Keep it up.


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#45 Jan 23 2011 at 12:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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I hated FFXI's grind, I really hope they don't bring it back as the primary source of levelling. However, they do need to at least make it an option, and not require a full team of people. 2-4 people in a party to grind should be sufficient.

Right now, both Final Fantasy XI and XIV are on opposite extremes. For the longest time, FFXI required a full party of 6 individuals and it wouldn't work with less than that. In XIV, it's the opposite extreme, it's best off solo. They need to find a good balance where a party of 2-4 friends can just go out on an adventure and get a quest and kill some monsters for decent EXP.

^ The above may sound the same as guildleves, but I mean something that's not as limiting as that system.




Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 10:41am by UltKnightGrover
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#46 Jan 23 2011 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:
I did this back when this stuff was new at WoW launch. By the time my second and eventual main character hit the late 50s, I was already done with questing and didn't want to do another one for as long as I live. I've been very selective with which quests I read since then as there are just so, so many and nothing stands out. It's kind of like how advertising has fallen in effectiveness because of how much of it there is in today's world.


I think it's fair to say that you are/were simply bored of repetitious content, which will likely happen regardless of whether it's group dungeons, group grinding, solo questing, solo grinding, PVP, or whatever else there is. I personally only have 3 high level characters in WOW, which I've leveled through a mix of dungeons and questing because doing one for too long is boring as ****. I also never touched PVP because I'm not a fan.

The point is, you can have multiple systems in a game as long as they're accessible and one doesn't dramatically outweigh the other in benefits (or penalties).

Quote:
I'm not going to pretend this wasn't an issue, however, I haven't been able to come up with a perfect solution other than try to encourage an even class role distribution so there are less bottle necks as far as group building goes. In any case, by the divine grace of the Windower, you could do other things while waiting for stuff to happen. I actually would have quit on the spot if Windower was taken down. It was so important for my enjoyment of the game.


No kidding, thank god for Windower and the /tell ringing.
#47 Jan 23 2011 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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I understand people not wanting the party grind to be king like it was in XI... but here is an example... I was with some LS mates doing leves at Skull Valley - we had a nice party going - picked up a couple more members after behest so it was a nice and balanced party with tank, healer and DDs.

We finished all of our leves, and we were having fun playing together, so I suggested we try to kill something together for SP.

Well, we attacked a crab and it took about a minute to kill, and we got less than 100 SP. Before the party SP nerf a similar battle would have netted us 350-500 SP each. Solo we can get 100 each from things that die in ten seconds at R15 with the current system.

So the party broke up.

I didn't bother killing things solo though - cause for me soloing is way more boring than partying.

I just want it to be feasible for people to get good SP in the open world by working together to take down tougher creatures.
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#48 Jan 23 2011 at 1:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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In an ideal world, I'd like to group with people and grind.

Here are the reasons why this isn't "ideal":

1) Most people would rather solo -now- than party -eventually-. Most of the people who were in High School and College when XI was out are graduated and have jobs, families, or both now. Those same people who didn't mind (or at least tolerated) lfp for 1-2 hours before the group even departed for camp no longer have as much spare time as they once had. I don't think people would mind grinding as much if you could get a group in 15 minutes or less, but people who wouldn't mind hour long wait times are a dying breed.

2) This isn't my complaint, in fact, I don't like this point at all, but one of the bigger issues with a party in XI was the lack of a definitive time frame for partying. So many threads were started over the years on =10 about how long is an acceptable amount of time to party. Personally, I've always been of the opinion that past level 30 or so, if you don't have AT LEAST two hours to dedicate, don't even bother flagging up. I wasn't alone in this either; some people would say three or more. I've seen people join a party and try to get a replacement (or just leave) under an hour later, and oh my what rage followed this. Doubly so if it was the tank, healer, or refresher, because if there are none to replace them, you have wasted five people's time for half an hour of XP, because they're now forced to disband. I may not like the idea of "Group up, do leves, disband" but at least it puts an expectation of "You stay until the leves are done", rather than "How long should you stay with a party before you can leave without them getting mad at you?" like XI had.

I've said before that I wouldn't mind a game where you were expected to lfp, get a group, go to camp, and kill, and that that was the ONLY WAY to level, where soloing is impossible and parties are the ONLY way to progress... But FFXIV wasn't marketed as that and it would be a terrible bait and switch to change it to that at this point.

People such as myself and the OP who prefer the group grind are a dying minority, and even I am moving out of that mindset myself as I, too, have a regular 40 hour a week job and find that I'd rather feel like I'm accomplishing a little bit ore than just grinding for the sake of grinding.

As for XIV, it would not be in the game's best interests to turn into a grindfest. The game needs to do more to promote grouping, but to force people into a party grind like XI did, while I could live with it, is not something that most of the players could live with.

It's like trying to change Taco Bell from "Mexican" (intentional sarcasm quotes) cuisine to Mediterranean. You're not only losing the thing that the store was created to be, but you're trying to attract a much much smaller market. It's not that the idea is inherently bad, it's that it's not a popular idea and it's unfair to force it upon people who were expecting something else.
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#49 Jan 23 2011 at 1:08 PM Rating: Default
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Well, we attacked a crab and it took about a minute to kill, and we got less than 100 SP. Before the party SP nerf a similar battle would have netted us 350-500 SP each. Solo we can get 100 each from things that die in ten seconds at R15 with the current system.

So the party broke up.


I don't understand why?
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#50 Jan 23 2011 at 1:12 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not going to pretend this wasn't an issue, however, I haven't been able to come up with a perfect solution other than try to encourage an even class role distribution so there are less bottle necks as far as group building goes. In any case, by the divine grace of the Windower, you could do other things while waiting for stuff to happen. I actually would have quit on the spot if Windower was taken down. It was so important for my enjoyment of the game.


The thing is no one should have to wait obscene amounts of time to get a group so they can level grind to "enjoy" something they are paying for. That's just not what I consider fun. I should be able to log on with my husband, be able to accomplish things with him, and log off when need be.
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#51 Jan 23 2011 at 1:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wolfums wrote:

I want to say that most people want goal-oriented leveling regardless of being solo or in a group. Getting a group, finding a camp somewhere, and grinding out monsters is something that most people would rather skip out on and instead do something like, say, a dungeon or group quest or anything that's not as monotonous.


I want both. The problem is quests are either:

a) boring (dailies, repeatables, guildleves, etc.)
OR
b) limited (one-time only, gated, etc.)

I do guildleves because it is the best way to get SP - but I would rather get SP in the open world. I find it more immersive.

Some people like quests, for sure. I am not one of them. I don't see why it has to be either/or. Make it so I can get good SP in a group outside of leves and other instanced content.

Also if they add dungeons I hope they are XI style (Garliage Citidel) not WoW style. I like having open world content much more than closed world content. Yes, I know that means you might have to share content (Gods forfend!) but it really kills immersion for me if everyone is in their own little bubble world instead of outside interacting with each other.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


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