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Bring back the old leveling style?Follow

#52 Jan 23 2011 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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Well, we attacked a crab and it took about a minute to kill, and we got less than 100 SP. Before the party SP nerf a similar battle would have netted us 350-500 SP each. Solo we can get 100 each from things that die in ten seconds at R15 with the current system.

So the party broke up.


I don't understand why?


Because the SP is terrible in a group at that level.

Look - you don't have to make it so you get uber-SP grouping - but it has to at least be equal to soloing or people just gonna solo. If SP is WORSE in a group - no one is going to group. That is why if you check the party search at any time of any day on Rab there is never anyone seeking members - cause it is pointless.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#53 Jan 23 2011 at 1:19 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
but I would rather get SP in the open world.


That's where guildleves are..?

Quote:

Because the SP is terrible in a group at that level.


If you hit the party bonus range, you lose 10% individual SP but kill twice as fast... I don't think it is rank-dependent.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 10:20pm by Hyanmen
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#54 Jan 23 2011 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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LillithaFenimore wrote:
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I'm not going to pretend this wasn't an issue, however, I haven't been able to come up with a perfect solution other than try to encourage an even class role distribution so there are less bottle necks as far as group building goes. In any case, by the divine grace of the Windower, you could do other things while waiting for stuff to happen. I actually would have quit on the spot if Windower was taken down. It was so important for my enjoyment of the game.


The thing is no one should have to wait obscene amounts of time to get a group so they can level grind to "enjoy" something they are paying for. That's just not what I consider fun. I should be able to log on with my husband, be able to accomplish things with him, and log off when need be.


Agreed - but you don't have to make it so people can't get good SP in a party to make it so you can duo with your hubby, right?
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#55 Jan 23 2011 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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What's with this gameshark generation of gamers who always want an easy route to the end? Forming a party and establishing a camp is a fundamental aspect of an MMORPG and is what immersed so many us in MMORPGs in the first place. Perhaps there are some who can't stand in one spot for more than a half hour, but that's no excuse to make every single MMORPG's primary means of leveling be done with a bunch of pointless, soloable quests. The leve system, as is, should be enough for those kinds of gamers and partying should have much greater appeal for SP'ing without that crowd's incessant whine of how unfair it is.

I really hope the FFXIV quests do not give significant SP as rewards and would rather them give class-specific armor/weapons, faction points, abilities, spells, summons, key items, titles, etc. In other words, everything but SP. Quests are suppose to be independent of exp'ing, combining the two removes more from the game than it adds. WoW cheapened the whole questing experience imo. High difficulty, high reward quests > Quick, easy, exp-based quests any day of the week.

This isn't even about casual vrs hardcore game either. It's between the crowd of people who don't like MMORPGs and are trying to change them to suit their tastes for single-player games and those of us who have loved the classical MMORPGs that have been going extinct ever since the start of this WoW phase that MMOs are in. Partying is useful for casual gamers and hardcore gamers alike, I myself have very little time to play during the week and prefer spending an half-hour to an hour soloing a few leves and a behest a couple days a week (~15k SP). But on the weekend I want to find a camp, sit back, relax and spend a total of 4-6ish hours chaining mobs which should net between 35k-60k SP by the end of the weekend. That's impossible if questing is more efficient because the partying mechanic is removed from the game entirely due to lack of interest, ie the casual gamer with limited time is unable to find a group in a reasonable time-frame. Solo'ing your way to the cap should take longer, and I don't buy this "questing is for the casual gamer" nonsense... questing, as done in WoW, is for single-player gamers.
#56 Jan 23 2011 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:

Quote:

Because the SP is terrible in a group at that level.


If you hit the party bonus range, you lose 10% individual SP but kill twice as fast... I don't think it is rank-dependent.



We were all in range. Killed a crab - took forever - got 100 SP or less. My LSmate went and killed some jellies solo after that got 150 SP and killed them in less than half the time.

You kill something easy for 30 SP each in a party - or kill it solo in almost the same time for 80 SP. You kill something hard that takes 1 minute for 100 SP in a group or kill something medium solo in 30 seconds for 150 SP.

You can't make it so that groups get less than soloers and then expect people to group. At least when I am solo I can go afk whenever I want or whatever. Being in a group is harder than soloing - so you can't MINUS the rewards for people that do it - or why would anyone do it?

I mean I've made groups to go exploring and slaughtering stuff in Coerthas for fun... but yeah, it is only fun once or twice. Then it just feels lame and inefficient. Back to coblyns, I guess.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 11:29am by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#57 Jan 23 2011 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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but I would rather get SP in the open world.


That's where guildleves are..?


Guildleves are gated content. The open world means I can keep playing as long as I want to - NOT - oh here is five minutes of content - go twiddle your thumbs now till next reset.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#58 Jan 23 2011 at 1:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
In an ideal world, I'd like to group with people and grind.

Here are the reasons why this isn't "ideal":

1) Most people would rather solo -now- than party -eventually-. Most of the people who were in High School and College when XI was out are graduated and have jobs, families, or both now. Those same people who didn't mind (or at least tolerated) lfp for 1-2 hours before the group even departed for camp no longer have as much spare time as they once had. I don't think people would mind grinding as much if you could get a group in 15 minutes or less, but people who wouldn't mind hour long wait times are a dying breed.

2) This isn't my complaint, in fact, I don't like this point at all, but one of the bigger issues with a party in XI was the lack of a definitive time frame for partying. So many threads were started over the years on =10 about how long is an acceptable amount of time to party. Personally, I've always been of the opinion that past level 30 or so, if you don't have AT LEAST two hours to dedicate, don't even bother flagging up. I wasn't alone in this either; some people would say three or more. I've seen people join a party and try to get a replacement (or just leave) under an hour later, and oh my what rage followed this. Doubly so if it was the tank, healer, or refresher, because if there are none to replace them, you have wasted five people's time for half an hour of XP, because they're now forced to disband. I may not like the idea of "Group up, do leves, disband" but at least it puts an expectation of "You stay until the leves are done", rather than "How long should you stay with a party before you can leave without them getting mad at you?" like XI had.

I've said before that I wouldn't mind a game where you were expected to lfp, get a group, go to camp, and kill, and that that was the ONLY WAY to level, where soloing is impossible and parties are the ONLY way to progress... But FFXIV wasn't marketed as that and it would be a terrible bait and switch to change it to that at this point.

People such as myself and the OP who prefer the group grind are a dying minority, and even I am moving out of that mindset myself as I, too, have a regular 40 hour a week job and find that I'd rather feel like I'm accomplishing a little bit ore than just grinding for the sake of grinding.

As for XIV, it would not be in the game's best interests to turn into a grindfest. The game needs to do more to promote grouping, but to force people into a party grind like XI did, while I could live with it, is not something that most of the players could live with.

It's like trying to change Taco Bell from "Mexican" (intentional sarcasm quotes) cuisine to Mediterranean. You're not only losing the thing that the store was created to be, but you're trying to attract a much much smaller market. It's not that the idea is inherently bad, it's that it's not a popular idea and it's unfair to force it upon people who were expecting something else.



Thank you for being the voice of reason....

And s/he is right. 14 was geared toward people that have lives. There would be many who would most likely either fade away or just down right quit due to bait and switch.

Doing a bait and switch IS NOT good business ethics. That is how companies lose consumers. 14 has already lost a bunch of consumers for good as it is...I don't think they want to lose any more, especially with their competetors who are making games better than SE is at this point.
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#59 Jan 23 2011 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I still enjoy FFXI system more, the differences between a party in FFXIV and FFXI is how people in the group make th party more effective.

first, you build a group of different roles.

second, players can enchant the group by eating food

thirdly, players choose pullers and skill chain (well most of being burn right now)

and lastly the puller decide the pull time.

FFXIV doesn't have these, no one ever brother consider any of these, of course it won't be as effective as FFXI grouping when
1. No one enchanting their status by other means (food)
2. No skill chain or battle regimen order
3. No pullers and everyone roams. (which increase the time in between when the whole group search)

FFXIV doesn't allow any of these right now because
1. Food isn't easy obtainable because no auction house nor anyone clear on what food effects are as of yet.
2. ACC is not a major factor nor any stats is major factor right now enough for food to affect anything
3. Battle regimen is a pain and the bonus is nil.
4. monsters are all randomly spawn with long distances between and pulling is a hard job as monster CAN reset.
5. No experience bonus.

All these points are what preventing party grinding, party grinding can be better even with 30-60 sp per kill if players can actually pull them, i mean sure a solo can kill 1 for 100 within 30 sec. But if you have a puller your party could get another fight right after the first kill within the 30 sec right after it dies and continue chainning instead of the solor disengage and run some distances for a new fight.

That is the flaw of the game right now. Of course, these party also increase social value. How? Well you meet some new friends and they are actually good players, it will induce you to team them again and again and eventually you become friends. Inbetween fights players can talk to each others as well.

Guidleve party DOES not induce social element why? 1. you only team with LS players mostly. 2. Even have different leves at the time, one can finished that one before he joined and he found tagging along is boring. 3. You are all running after one leve end, there is no space to talks.
#60 Jan 23 2011 at 1:35 PM Rating: Default
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You kill something easy for 30 SP each in a party - or kill it solo in almost the same time for 80 SP.


I don't think that is the case. With the party bonus applied, the difference is 10%, give or take. This has been the case for all of my groups. Three people means 20% hit in individual SP, but you also kill (potentially) thrice as fast.

Quote:
Guildleves are gated content.


But that's why there are ways to open the gates indefinitely. There is no limit to doing shared leves. It's much like MMM system was- you can keep doing them as long as there are people.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 10:36pm by Hyanmen
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#61 Jan 23 2011 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:
Quote:
I'm not going to pretend this wasn't an issue, however, I haven't been able to come up with a perfect solution other than try to encourage an even class role distribution so there are less bottle necks as far as group building goes. In any case, by the divine grace of the Windower, you could do other things while waiting for stuff to happen. I actually would have quit on the spot if Windower was taken down. It was so important for my enjoyment of the game.


The thing is no one should have to wait obscene amounts of time to get a group so they can level grind to "enjoy" something they are paying for. That's just not what I consider fun. I should be able to log on with my husband, be able to accomplish things with him, and log off when need be.


Agreed - but you don't have to make it so people can't get good SP in a party to make it so you can duo with your hubby, right?



I agree. There needs to be a good middle. I think someone said in my other thread that died out, that no matter how many people in the party, SE can have it coded to where the mobs are tailored to that group size.

For people who get in a group setting, SHOULD get more than someone who is soloing, and the kills would move faster. LIke I have stated before though, it shouldn't go to the extreme that XI went to. I am hoping with what they are doing and implementing they will find a happy median for all. Just so long as me and my hubby can move through the story line at a decent pace, I'm cool. As long as we can level at a decent pace, I'm cool.
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#62 Jan 23 2011 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:

This is where people point out that they have no desire to wait an hour to get a group. That's where I point out that I'd rather wait an hour to have fun than to endlessly wade through mediocrity because there is no possibility for fun regardless of how long I wait. I played THF to a high level in FFXI, I know what waiting for a group is. I definitely do. Did I get frustrated at times? You bet I did, but at least I had something to look forward to, something to prepare for so that I could be my very best when the time comes. Reputation mattered, you see, and being a good party member was a great way to stand out when people built parties. In WoW I know there's just going to be another quest hub with another set of trivial tasks for me to perform. Every time I group up in WoW I know none of the other guys and I probably won't see them again. This is also why they often play terribly and ninja all your stuff.


Totally! I would also like to note that XIV already has a lot of systems in place which make it so those people who don't want to wait an hour to group up - or who just want to do endless meaningless quests - can do so.

The game also already has systems in place which would make LFG much less painless (everyone can teleport - every hour on the hour behests that you can do while waiting - crafting quests that you can do while LFG etc.)

In XI there was literally nothing for me to do if I was LFG cause you were pretty much chained to the general area where you were hoping to get the group or to a town where you could teleport to the zone. Crafting was not really accessible to ordinary players because it was so expensive (and no crafting leves!)... gathering just wasn't something most people were doing etc.

Now if they introduced an XI style system of grouping I could put up my flag with my relevant class ranks in the tag, and then go fishing wherever it is I want to go fishing. Or I could solo some leves. Or I could craft and do behest. Then when I got an invite I could insta tele and change jobs. Awesome!
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#63 Jan 23 2011 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:


But that's why there are ways to open the gates indefinitely. There is no limit to doing shared leves. It's much like MMM system was- you can keep doing them as long as there are people.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 10:36pm by Hyanmen


Yeah, there is a limit - it is called 8 leves each per reset. It isn't like there is an infinite amount of players who just wanna let you leech the SP from their leves. When the people in your group are tapped out - you're tapped out. It doesn't usually take that long for that to happen, either. I mean we could stop leve-linking... but the SP for doing it once is the same as for doing it twice - so why wouldn't we link?

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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#64 Jan 23 2011 at 1:41 PM Rating: Default
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LillithaFenimore wrote:
And s/he is right. 14 was geared toward people that have lives. There would be many who would most likely either fade away or just down right quit due to bait and switch.

People who like to group and take down tough mobs have no lives? Good riddance to the holier-than-thou types then. SE will return to FFXI in terms of partying, no doubt. They'll still have leves and you guys with your "life" can run through a maze like a lab mouse all you like.
#65 Jan 23 2011 at 1:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:


But that's why there are ways to open the gates indefinitely. There is no limit to doing shared leves. It's much like MMM system was- you can keep doing them as long as there are people.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 10:36pm by Hyanmen


Yeah, there is a limit - it is called 8 leves each per reset. It isn't like there is an infinite amount of players who just wanna let you leech the SP from their leves. When the people in your group are tapped out - you're tapped out. It doesn't usually take that long for that to happen, either. I mean we could stop leve-linking... but the SP for doing it once is the same as for doing it twice - so why wouldn't we link?



I thought leve linking only gave a 30% or so bonus to SP? Doing every leve separately should give more SP total, obviously much lower SP per hour though, and it would take forever for an entire group to do that.
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#66 Jan 23 2011 at 1:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Side note:

LillithaFenimore wrote:
14 was geared toward people that have lives.


Never been a fan of that particular phrase; that people who only play for a short period of time "have lives" (as if to imply that people who play for longer amounts of time don't?)

Everyone has 24 hours in a day. Some choose to spend their time in clubs, some in bars, some at malls, some reading books, some watching sports, some playing video games. Everyone has "a life", different people just spend their time differently.

"Have family commitments", "Work more than 40 hours a week", "Prefer other things", whatever you want to say to dictate how someone wants to spend their time that isn't on a video game is fine. But to imply that people who have more time to spend or choose to spend more time on a game "don't have lives" is a bit condescending and judgmental.

I go to sleep at 1 AM, wake up at 9 AM, get to work at 9:30. Leave work at 6, get home at 6:30, and I now have from 6:30 to 1 AM, or roughly 7 hours to divide up as desired. I would prefer not to spend 3 of those 7 hours lfp and 4 hours actually partying versus playing the game for 3-5 hours and then logging off (perhaps to play another game, even?) but just because I choose to spend 3-5 hours on a game whereas someone with a child might only be able to spend 1-2 hours a day does not mean I don't "have a life"; it just means they have other commitments.



So I'm not disagreeing with the point you were making; just saying that I'm not a fan of the implication that some games are designed for people who "don't have lives", or that the ability to spend a given amount of time performing a given task (be it video games or TV or building a boat or fixing your car) implies that a person doesn't have "a life".
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#67 Jan 23 2011 at 1:45 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Yeah, there is a limit - it is called 8 leves each per reset.


Like I said, that limit doesn't apply as long as you share leves. Which is the system's primary function.

Quote:
It isn't like there is an infinite amount of players who just wanna let you leech the SP from their leves.


Leech? If he can solo the leve, up the difficulty.

Quote:
I mean we could stop leve-linking... but the SP for doing it once is the same as for doing it twice


Wait a second here... by leve linking you gain +50% more SP per monster (+50% bonus). By not leve linking you gain +100% SP per monster (double the original). Leve sharing, if you have the time for it, is better than leve linking.

+50% may be off but it is definitely not double SP per link.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 10:46pm by Hyanmen
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#68 Jan 23 2011 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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ArchBlegan wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:
And s/he is right. 14 was geared toward people that have lives. There would be many who would most likely either fade away or just down right quit due to bait and switch.

People who like to group and take down tough mobs have no lives? Good riddance to the holier-than-thou types then. SE will return to FFXI in terms of partying, no doubt. They'll still have leves and you guys with your "life" can run through a maze like a lab mouse all you like.



No offense but I call them like I see them. If you have time to sit for hours on end and wait for a group...then yeah, I'll say you don't have much of a life.

I agree with Mik that many people who played XI, were still in HS at the time. Now many of us have gone to college, had children started careers...and are having to deal with things IRL that keep us from having an abundance of time on our hands.

I used to enjoy leveling in XI, until I had to buckle down and study for my 3000,4000 level classes. I loved leveling in XI, when I didn't have a kid clinging to me and needing me. I loved XI, when other personal issues arose...however, I don't have time for XI. That doesn't make me "holier-than-thou". That just means I have my priorities straight. And when I have down time, I want a release that doesn't feel like a 2nd job.
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#69 Jan 23 2011 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Side note:

LillithaFenimore wrote:
14 was geared toward people that have lives.


Never been a fan of that particular phrase; that people who only play for a short period of time "have lives" (as if to imply that people who play for longer amounts of time don't?)

Everyone has 24 hours in a day. Some choose to spend their time in clubs, some in bars, some at malls, some reading books, some watching sports, some playing video games. Everyone has "a life", different people just spend their time differently.

"Have family commitments", "Work more than 40 hours a week", "Prefer other things", whatever you want to say to dictate how someone wants to spend their time that isn't on a video game is fine. But to imply that people who have more time to spend or choose to spend more time on a game "don't have lives" is a bit condescending and judgmental.

I go to sleep at 1 AM, wake up at 9 AM, get to work at 9:30. Leave work at 6, get home at 6:30, and I now have from 6:30 to 1 AM, or roughly 7 hours to divide up as desired. I would prefer not to spend 3 of those 7 hours lfp and 4 hours actually partying versus playing the game for 3-5 hours and then logging off (perhaps to play another game, even?) but just because I choose to spend 3-5 hours on a game whereas someone with a child might only be able to spend 1-2 hours a day does not mean I don't "have a life"; it just means they have other commitments.



So I'm not disagreeing with the point you were making; just saying that I'm not a fan of the implication that some games are designed for people who "don't have lives", or that the ability to spend a given amount of time performing a given task (be it video games or TV or building a boat or fixing your car) implies that a person doesn't have "a life".


Yeah I could probably use a better choice of words...hmmm....

I guess I could say people who have more pressing responsibilities?
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#70 Jan 23 2011 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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ArchBlegan wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:
And s/he is right. 14 was geared toward people that have lives. There would be many who would most likely either fade away or just down right quit due to bait and switch.

People who like to group and take down tough mobs have no lives? Good riddance to the holier-than-thou types then. SE will return to FFXI in terms of partying, no doubt. They'll still have leves and you guys with your "life" can run through a maze like a lab mouse all you like.


Yeah, I mean, I am in a relationship, 28 years old - job that is full time (more than full time sometimes) but I still want to party up and take down stuff. I still manage to have days where if partying was worth the effort I could totally do some good long party grinding (weekends are fun!)

I don't have children and stuff so I know that there are others with more time committments - but the existing systems in the game (leves, behest) if they were improved slightly - are there for people who don't want to party or don't have time for traditional style parties. I don't think it needs to be either/or.

If Lillitha is satisfied with the pace of SP she is getting now - that won't be changed by allowing people to group up and get rewarded for doing so.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#71 Jan 23 2011 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
blah blah blah


I'm not going to argue with you anymore cause clearly you think the existing system is perfect, and that gated content is not gated, etc.

If you like leves onry as the way to rank up - that is fine. Others want more choice about ways to rank up.

Opening the system to choice won't stop you from doing the same frigging boring, limited guildleves over and over until your done playing the game. It will just allow players like me to do other things.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#72 Jan 23 2011 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:
And s/he is right. 14 was geared toward people that have lives. There would be many who would most likely either fade away or just down right quit due to bait and switch.

People who like to group and take down tough mobs have no lives? Good riddance to the holier-than-thou types then. SE will return to FFXI in terms of partying, no doubt. They'll still have leves and you guys with your "life" can run through a maze like a lab mouse all you like.


Yeah, I mean, I am in a relationship, 28 years old - job that is full time (more than full time sometimes) but I still want to party up and take down stuff. I still manage to have days where if partying was worth the effort I could totally do some good long party grinding (weekends are fun!)

I don't have children and stuff so I know that there are others with more time committments - but the existing systems in the game (leves, behest) if they were improved slightly - are there for people who don't want to party or don't have time for traditional style parties. I don't think it needs to be either/or.

If Lillitha is satisfied with the pace of SP she is getting now - that won't be changed by allowing people to group up and get rewarded for doing so.



ANd I'm hoping at the pace in which I gain exp won't be affected, but I do hope that there is some sort of component that rewards those for wanting to be in groups, the exp gain should be higher. And I do hope there is some element added to bring that groupd cohesion that everyone wants, w/o affecting my duoing with my marauding hubby and myself who plays con.
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#73 Jan 23 2011 at 1:58 PM Rating: Default
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I'm not going to argue with you anymore cause clearly you think the existing system is perfect, and that gated content is not gated, etc.


Pointing out your misconceptions = thinking the existing system is perfect.

But hey my name is blue, so you can just do that and get rated up. I'm nobody, you see.

Hopefully you still learned something today.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 10:58pm by Hyanmen
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#74 Jan 23 2011 at 1:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
LillithaFenimore wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Side note:

LillithaFenimore wrote:
14 was geared toward people that have lives.


Never been a fan of that particular phrase; that people who only play for a short period of time "have lives" (as if to imply that people who play for longer amounts of time don't?)

Everyone has 24 hours in a day. Some choose to spend their time in clubs, some in bars, some at malls, some reading books, some watching sports, some playing video games. Everyone has "a life", different people just spend their time differently.

"Have family commitments", "Work more than 40 hours a week", "Prefer other things", whatever you want to say to dictate how someone wants to spend their time that isn't on a video game is fine. But to imply that people who have more time to spend or choose to spend more time on a game "don't have lives" is a bit condescending and judgmental.

I go to sleep at 1 AM, wake up at 9 AM, get to work at 9:30. Leave work at 6, get home at 6:30, and I now have from 6:30 to 1 AM, or roughly 7 hours to divide up as desired. I would prefer not to spend 3 of those 7 hours lfp and 4 hours actually partying versus playing the game for 3-5 hours and then logging off (perhaps to play another game, even?) but just because I choose to spend 3-5 hours on a game whereas someone with a child might only be able to spend 1-2 hours a day does not mean I don't "have a life"; it just means they have other commitments.



So I'm not disagreeing with the point you were making; just saying that I'm not a fan of the implication that some games are designed for people who "don't have lives", or that the ability to spend a given amount of time performing a given task (be it video games or TV or building a boat or fixing your car) implies that a person doesn't have "a life".


Yeah I could probably use a better choice of words...hmmm....

I guess I could say people who have more pressing responsibilities?


Sure. I mean, I have a fiancee and our wedding date is this April, so we have our share of stuff that has to be done for that. Fortunately, spending time together, for us, involves playing video games together. e.g. I'm replaying an older FF game (no, I won't list which, lest this topic get derailed about "best FF game") and she's playing an MMORPG (no, I won't list which, lest this topic get derailed about THAT either) and we're hanging out in the computer room. That's how we spend time together so it works out great.

But I'm sure that once we start having kids, that's going to eat into our time pretty significantly. We also spend time with her family and with my family as well when we can, etc.

So yeah, some people do have ore pressing responsibilities that take priority over gaming and some people have less day to day responsibilities and are able to allocate them to gaming.

It's not fair to ***** over the group of people who WANT to spend 10+ hours a day on a game because "some people only have 1-2 hours a day", but it's also not fair to ***** over casual players because people with fewer daily duties want a game that demands a minimum time investment of several hours or don't even bother logging on.

Ideally, the game should try to offer solutions to both type of player.

****, sometimes on a Saturday or a Sunday when I have the whole day free, I might want to invest 12-14 or more hours into the game (e.g. my reply of the one I'm doing now). I wouldn't want to log onto XIV on a Sat/Sun with 8-14 hours to play and be limited to only 2-3 hours worth of content before there's nothing left to do. Grinding should be an option in situations like that. But it shouldn't be the -only- option.
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#75 Jan 23 2011 at 2:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:


Hopefully you still learned something today.


Yeah, thanks for pointing out that leve-linking isn't as good as I thought it was. One more reason why leves suck. YAY.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#76 Jan 23 2011 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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429 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I want both. The problem is quests are either:

a) boring (dailies, repeatables, guildleves, etc.)
OR
b) limited (one-time only, gated, etc.)

I do guildleves because it is the best way to get SP - but I would rather get SP in the open world. I find it more immersive.

Some people like quests, for sure. I am not one of them. I don't see why it has to be either/or. Make it so I can get good SP in a group outside of leves and other instanced content.

Also if they add dungeons I hope they are XI style (Garliage Citidel) not WoW style. I like having open world content much more than closed world content. Yes, I know that means you might have to share content (Gods forfend!) but it really kills immersion for me if everyone is in their own little bubble world instead of outside interacting with each other.


I don't see why we can't have everything, or at least more than one way of leveling up. That's what I've been trying to argue.

Don't want quests? Make solo quest grinding give on-par experience as solo monster grinding.
Don't want instanced dungeons? Make outdoor elite areas or elite, non-instanced dungeons along with a little instanced content.

Forcing people to only group, or making soloing by far the best way to level, or making it so you only have to quest, or whatever else, is the best way to make sure you've got a sub-par MMO. I'm pulling numbers out of my **** here, but if you provide at least 3 "styles" of leveling, all roughly equal in terms of performance/items/cool-factor, you're going to have a good MMO.
#77 Jan 23 2011 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
33 posts
LillithaFenimore wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:
And s/he is right. 14 was geared toward people that have lives. There would be many who would most likely either fade away or just down right quit due to bait and switch.

People who like to group and take down tough mobs have no lives? Good riddance to the holier-than-thou types then. SE will return to FFXI in terms of partying, no doubt. They'll still have leves and you guys with your "life" can run through a maze like a lab mouse all you like.



No offense but I call them like I see them. If you have time to sit for hours on end and wait for a group...then yeah, I'll say you don't have much of a life.

I agree with Mik that many people who played XI, were still in HS at the time. Now many of us have gone to college, had children started careers...and are having to deal with things IRL that keep us from having an abundance of time on our hands.

I used to enjoy leveling in XI, until I had to buckle down and study for my 3000,4000 level classes. I loved leveling in XI, when I didn't have a kid clinging to me and needing me. I loved XI, when other personal issues arose...however, I don't have time for XI. That doesn't make me "holier-than-thou". That just means I have my priorities straight. And when I have down time, I want a release that doesn't feel like a 2nd job.

You add on a conditional to your flawed argument that makes no sense -- can you forsee the future and your crystal ball tells you that FFXIV will take hours to find/form a party? The armoury system is geared towards making it easier to fill the key roles... for example by combining Black Mage and White Mage into one class increases the number of healers dramatically, heck even THM can heal. MRD/PGL/GLA can all fill the role of tank and every class in the game can be a DPS even GLA could be spec'd to DPS.

Making a party would only take hours if people like you get their way and soloing dominates the game. And yes, you have a holier-than-thou attitude because you seem to believe any style of play other than your own is self-destructive when I only average 1.25 hours a day per week on the game, it just so happens a chunk of it is done on the weekend. If you have a child... what are you doing playing a game with intent to reach the cap and do end-game raiding? Sounds like you don't have your priorities straight anyhow and convinced yourself you're "under control" by comparing yourself to your stereotypical image of how much time other players put into this game.

#78 Jan 23 2011 at 2:06 PM Rating: Default
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3,416 posts
Quote:
Yeah, thanks for pointing out that leve-linking isn't as good as I thought it was. One more reason why leves suck. YAY.


Yep, getting more total exp per sitting sucks.

But what the **** is up with the hostility? Jesus christ.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 11:07pm by Hyanmen
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#79 Jan 23 2011 at 2:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
ArchBlegan wrote:
You add on a conditional to your flawed argument that makes no sense -- can you forsee the future and your crystal ball tells you that FFXIV will take hours to find/form a party? The armoury system is geared towards making it easier to fill the key roles... for example by combining Black Mage and White Mage into one class increases the number of healers dramatically, heck even THM can heal. MRD/PGL/GLA can all fill the role of tank and every class in the game can be a DPS even GLA could be spec'd to DPS.


You're ignoring one very important point:

The problem in grouping in any game (be it FFXI or FFXIV or WoW or anything) is not an issue of a lack of classes capable of performing a role, but a lack of PLAYERS who WANT to perform that role. Just because someone CAN heal doesn't mean the WANT to. Just because someone CAN tank doesn't mean they WANT to.

WoW is actually a great example of this:

Classes that can tank: Paladin, Warrior, Death Knight, Druid (Excluding situational tanks or weird tanking situations)
Classes that can heal: Priest, Druid, Shaman, Paladin
Classes that can do neither: Hunter, Rogue, Mage, Warlock

So by this logic, four of ten classes can heal and four of ten can tank. Two of them (Druid and Paladin) can heal -or- tank.

And yet how any raid groups do you see with 8/10 or 21/25 who have a handfull of these players but they're still looking for healers or tanks? Even if their gear could serve the purpose desired and even if respeccing was an option, most players would rather go with damage dealing classes. Sometimes you'll get a player who doesn't mind tanking or healing even though it's not what they'd -prefer- to do, but more often than not, asking someone who preferred a DD role to tank/heal instead is not typically met with agreement. Most players would rather disband the group and reflag as a damage dealer than agree to perform a support role and invite another DD to take their place.

In terms of FFXI, for the sake of argument, WAR and SAM could tank and DRG/mage and BLU could heal. But try convincing one to.

So while it may or may not take "hours" to build a party, the fact remains that just because several classes CAN heal or tank does not mean they WANT to. And unless you have a player who WANTS to heal and a player who WANTS to tank, you don't have a party.

The issue in FFXI was not a lack of PLD/NIN or WHM/RDM/SCH/SMN but a lack of players who wanted to perform the tank/healer role.
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#80 Jan 23 2011 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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11,576 posts
ArchBlegan wrote:

You add on a conditional to your flawed argument that makes no sense -- can you forsee the future and your crystal ball tells you that FFXIV will take hours to find/form a party? The armoury system is geared towards making it easier to fill the key roles... for example by combining Black Mage and White Mage into one class increases the number of healers dramatically, heck even THM can heal. MRD/PGL/GLA can all fill the role of tank and every class in the game can be a DPS even GLA could be spec'd to DPS.

Making a party would only take hours if people like you get their way and soloing dominates the game. And yes, you have a holier-than-thou attitude because you seem to believe any style of play other than your own is self-destructive when I only average 1.25 hours a day per week on the game, it just so happens a chunk of it is done on the weekend. If you have a child... what are you doing playing a game with intent to reach the cap and do end-game raiding? Sounds like you don't have your priorities straight anyhow and convinced yourself you're "under control" by comparing yourself to your stereotypical image of how much time other players put into this game.


The armory system hasn't been tested in "challenging" content outside of NMs. And if there's anything experience has shown me, just because you give someone the tools to tank or heal doesn't mean they're going to be a good tank or healer (or even that they'll want to tank/heal).

The point people with priorities are trying to make that you're overlooking in your zeal to slam them for having spare time at all is that if you've got <x> amount of time to yourself to indulge in a hobby, you don't want to waste a substantial chunk of that time waiting for things to happen. If the work week is over and the kids are in bed and you've got a few hours to kick back and relax in an MMO, you don't want to waste the first hour or more of that time waiting around on a group. Don't delude yourself. The armory system isn't going to eliminate wait times for groups if the content involves more than gang beating mobs tuned for solo play. If the mobs you intend to fight actually hit hard enough to warrant a proper tank and healer, there are going to be wait times. If anyone with a healing spell can heal and any melee class can tank, it's not really challenging group content, is it?
#81 Jan 23 2011 at 2:29 PM Rating: Default
33 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
You add on a conditional to your flawed argument that makes no sense -- can you forsee the future and your crystal ball tells you that FFXIV will take hours to find/form a party? The armoury system is geared towards making it easier to fill the key roles... for example by combining Black Mage and White Mage into one class increases the number of healers dramatically, heck even THM can heal. MRD/PGL/GLA can all fill the role of tank and every class in the game can be a DPS even GLA could be spec'd to DPS.


You're ignoring one very important point:

The problem in grouping in any game (be it FFXI or FFXIV or WoW or anything) is not an issue of a lack of classes capable of performing a role, but a lack of PLAYERS who WANT to perform that role. Just because someone CAN heal doesn't mean the WANT to. Just because someone CAN tank doesn't mean they WANT to.

WoW is actually a great example of this:

Classes that can tank: Paladin, Warrior, Death Knight, Druid (Excluding situational tanks or weird tanking situations)
Classes that can heal: Priest, Druid, Shaman, Paladin
Classes that can do neither: Hunter, Rogue, Mage, Warlock

So by this logic, four of ten classes can heal and four of ten can tank. Two of them (Druid and Paladin) can heal -or- tank.

And yet how any raid groups do you see with 8/10 or 21/25 who have a handfull of these players but they're still looking for healers or tanks? Even if their gear could serve the purpose desired and even if respeccing was an option, most players would rather go with damage dealing classes. Sometimes you'll get a player who doesn't mind tanking or healing even though it's not what they'd -prefer- to do, but more often than not, asking someone who preferred a DD role to tank/heal instead is not typically met with agreement. Most players would rather disband the group and reflag as a damage dealer than agree to perform a support role and invite another DD to take their place.

In terms of FFXI, for the sake of argument, WAR and SAM could tank and DRG/mage and BLU could heal. But try convincing one to.

So while it may or may not take "hours" to build a party, the fact remains that just because several classes CAN heal or tank does not mean they WANT to. And unless you have a player who WANTS to heal and a player who WANTS to tank, you don't have a party.

The issue in FFXI was not a lack of PLD/NIN or WHM/RDM/SCH/SMN but a lack of players who wanted to perform the tank/healer role.

That's because they'd have to run to town and completely respec, typically at a huge gold cost. CON has all their spells regardless of what they spend most of their time doing, they don't need to do a whole lot to change from "BLM" to "WHM." There was an entirely different system that isn't even close to FFXIV.
#82 Jan 23 2011 at 2:32 PM Rating: Decent
33 posts
Aurelius wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:

You add on a conditional to your flawed argument that makes no sense -- can you forsee the future and your crystal ball tells you that FFXIV will take hours to find/form a party? The armoury system is geared towards making it easier to fill the key roles... for example by combining Black Mage and White Mage into one class increases the number of healers dramatically, heck even THM can heal. MRD/PGL/GLA can all fill the role of tank and every class in the game can be a DPS even GLA could be spec'd to DPS.

Making a party would only take hours if people like you get their way and soloing dominates the game. And yes, you have a holier-than-thou attitude because you seem to believe any style of play other than your own is self-destructive when I only average 1.25 hours a day per week on the game, it just so happens a chunk of it is done on the weekend. If you have a child... what are you doing playing a game with intent to reach the cap and do end-game raiding? Sounds like you don't have your priorities straight anyhow and convinced yourself you're "under control" by comparing yourself to your stereotypical image of how much time other players put into this game.


The armory system hasn't been tested in "challenging" content outside of NMs. And if there's anything experience has shown me, just because you give someone the tools to tank or heal doesn't mean they're going to be a good tank or healer (or even that they'll want to tank/heal).

The point people with priorities are trying to make that you're overlooking in your zeal to slam them for having spare time at all is that if you've got <x> amount of time to yourself to indulge in a hobby, you don't want to waste a substantial chunk of that time waiting for things to happen. If the work week is over and the kids are in bed and you've got a few hours to kick back and relax in an MMO, you don't want to waste the first hour or more of that time waiting around on a group. Don't delude yourself. The armory system isn't going to eliminate wait times for groups if the content involves more than gang beating mobs tuned for solo play. If the mobs you intend to fight actually hit hard enough to warrant a proper tank and healer, there are going to be wait times. If anyone with a healing spell can heal and any melee class can tank, it's not really challenging group content, is it?

Aurelius, you're the most annoying poster I've ever encountered on an MMO forum... thought I'd share that. Your posts aren't worth reading past the first sentence, I made the mistake of reading your posts in full before... wont make that mistake again. No need to even respond to someone who intentionally misrepresents what I'm saying.
#83 Jan 23 2011 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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429 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
So while it may or may not take "hours" to build a party, the fact remains that just because several classes CAN heal or tank does not mean they WANT to. And unless you have a player who WANTS to heal and a player who WANTS to tank, you don't have a party.

The issue in FFXI was not a lack of PLD/NIN or WHM/RDM/SCH/SMN but a lack of players who wanted to perform the tank/healer role.


Don't forget that a huge amount of FFXI players also wanted a buff class in their group. If you couldn't find a tank, a healer, and a RDM/BRD/COR, you'd likely not have a group.
#84 Jan 23 2011 at 2:36 PM Rating: Default
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ArchBlegan wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:
And s/he is right. 14 was geared toward people that have lives. There would be many who would most likely either fade away or just down right quit due to bait and switch.

People who like to group and take down tough mobs have no lives? Good riddance to the holier-than-thou types then. SE will return to FFXI in terms of partying, no doubt. They'll still have leves and you guys with your "life" can run through a maze like a lab mouse all you like.



No offense but I call them like I see them. If you have time to sit for hours on end and wait for a group...then yeah, I'll say you don't have much of a life.

I agree with Mik that many people who played XI, were still in HS at the time. Now many of us have gone to college, had children started careers...and are having to deal with things IRL that keep us from having an abundance of time on our hands.

I used to enjoy leveling in XI, until I had to buckle down and study for my 3000,4000 level classes. I loved leveling in XI, when I didn't have a kid clinging to me and needing me. I loved XI, when other personal issues arose...however, I don't have time for XI. That doesn't make me "holier-than-thou". That just means I have my priorities straight. And when I have down time, I want a release that doesn't feel like a 2nd job.

You add on a conditional to your flawed argument that makes no sense -- can you forsee the future and your crystal ball tells you that FFXIV will take hours to find/form a party? The armoury system is geared towards making it easier to fill the key roles... for example by combining Black Mage and White Mage into one class increases the number of healers dramatically, heck even THM can heal. MRD/PGL/GLA can all fill the role of tank and every class in the game can be a DPS even GLA could be spec'd to DPS.

Making a party would only take hours if people like you get their way and soloing dominates the game. And yes, you have a holier-than-thou attitude because you seem to believe any style of play other than your own is self-destructive when I only average 1.25 hours a day per week on the game, it just so happens a chunk of it is done on the weekend. If you have a child... what are you doing playing a game with intent to reach the cap and do end-game raiding? Sounds like you don't have your priorities straight anyhow and convinced yourself you're "under control" by comparing yourself to your stereotypical image of how much time other players put into this game.



In XI, making a party now is difficult. IDK if you played XI recently, but as of when this game came out, it was **** near impossible to pull anything together. And I know the armory system helps to eleminate some of that. I don't want to make a group beyond 2 maybe 3. I don't even get to play an hour every day.

And as far as making it to do raids, I never said I wanted to do raids. If you would have read my posts in the past in other threads, you would know that the only thing I want to do is get through the main story line with myself and my husband. I've stated before there should be additional content for those who wish to do raids or grouping. As for playing a game with my kid. FYI, I don't. I do not log on while she is awake. I only log on during her nap to get my retainer out and purchase items to use to craft things later. And at night, when my husband doesn't get home from work at a late time. Shows how much you know. Stick to the topic and stop trying to nose into what I do with my family when and where.
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#85 Jan 23 2011 at 2:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
ArchBlegan wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
You add on a conditional to your flawed argument that makes no sense -- can you forsee the future and your crystal ball tells you that FFXIV will take hours to find/form a party? The armoury system is geared towards making it easier to fill the key roles... for example by combining Black Mage and White Mage into one class increases the number of healers dramatically, heck even THM can heal. MRD/PGL/GLA can all fill the role of tank and every class in the game can be a DPS even GLA could be spec'd to DPS.


You're ignoring one very important point:

The problem in grouping in any game (be it FFXI or FFXIV or WoW or anything) is not an issue of a lack of classes capable of performing a role, but a lack of PLAYERS who WANT to perform that role. Just because someone CAN heal doesn't mean the WANT to. Just because someone CAN tank doesn't mean they WANT to.

WoW is actually a great example of this:

Classes that can tank: Paladin, Warrior, Death Knight, Druid (Excluding situational tanks or weird tanking situations)
Classes that can heal: Priest, Druid, Shaman, Paladin
Classes that can do neither: Hunter, Rogue, Mage, Warlock

So by this logic, four of ten classes can heal and four of ten can tank. Two of them (Druid and Paladin) can heal -or- tank.

And yet how any raid groups do you see with 8/10 or 21/25 who have a handfull of these players but they're still looking for healers or tanks? Even if their gear could serve the purpose desired and even if respeccing was an option, most players would rather go with damage dealing classes. Sometimes you'll get a player who doesn't mind tanking or healing even though it's not what they'd -prefer- to do, but more often than not, asking someone who preferred a DD role to tank/heal instead is not typically met with agreement. Most players would rather disband the group and reflag as a damage dealer than agree to perform a support role and invite another DD to take their place.

In terms of FFXI, for the sake of argument, WAR and SAM could tank and DRG/mage and BLU could heal. But try convincing one to.

So while it may or may not take "hours" to build a party, the fact remains that just because several classes CAN heal or tank does not mean they WANT to. And unless you have a player who WANTS to heal and a player who WANTS to tank, you don't have a party.

The issue in FFXI was not a lack of PLD/NIN or WHM/RDM/SCH/SMN but a lack of players who wanted to perform the tank/healer role.

That's because they'd have to run to town and completely respec, typically at a huge gold cost. CON has all their spells regardless of what they spend most of their time doing, they don't need to do a whole lot to change from "BLM" to "WHM." There was an entirely different system that isn't even close to FFXIV.


For one, I've offered to pay people's respec costs for them to respec twice (once for the purpose and once to spec back) and only once has anyone ever actually agreed. For two, gold is so easy to come by that it's hardly hurtful to someone's pocket. Furthermore, dual spec pretty much shoots this argument to ****. But I'm not going to argue that point further.

The more important issue is that you're dodging the point:

What if they don't WANT to?

What if the CON just doesn't WANT to heal? What if that GLA doesn't WANT to tank?

You're just assuming that because someone CAN perform a role, that:

1) They don't mind doing it.
2) They're actually good at it.

Perhaps they are a DD because they're terrible at healing/tanking? Perhaps they're a DD because they don't WANT the responsibility of performing a role?

Like I said... DRG/mage and BLU -CAN- heal. SAM and WAR -can- tank. How many do you think will WANT to?

You can't just assume that you'll be able to whip up a party by grabbing whoever and that they won't mind healing or tanking.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 3:37pm by Mikhalia
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Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#86 Jan 23 2011 at 2:41 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,539 posts
ArchBlegan wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:

You add on a conditional to your flawed argument that makes no sense -- can you forsee the future and your crystal ball tells you that FFXIV will take hours to find/form a party? The armoury system is geared towards making it easier to fill the key roles... for example by combining Black Mage and White Mage into one class increases the number of healers dramatically, heck even THM can heal. MRD/PGL/GLA can all fill the role of tank and every class in the game can be a DPS even GLA could be spec'd to DPS.

Making a party would only take hours if people like you get their way and soloing dominates the game. And yes, you have a holier-than-thou attitude because you seem to believe any style of play other than your own is self-destructive when I only average 1.25 hours a day per week on the game, it just so happens a chunk of it is done on the weekend. If you have a child... what are you doing playing a game with intent to reach the cap and do end-game raiding? Sounds like you don't have your priorities straight anyhow and convinced yourself you're "under control" by comparing yourself to your stereotypical image of how much time other players put into this game.


The armory system hasn't been tested in "challenging" content outside of NMs. And if there's anything experience has shown me, just because you give someone the tools to tank or heal doesn't mean they're going to be a good tank or healer (or even that they'll want to tank/heal).

The point people with priorities are trying to make that you're overlooking in your zeal to slam them for having spare time at all is that if you've got <x> amount of time to yourself to indulge in a hobby, you don't want to waste a substantial chunk of that time waiting for things to happen. If the work week is over and the kids are in bed and you've got a few hours to kick back and relax in an MMO, you don't want to waste the first hour or more of that time waiting around on a group. Don't delude yourself. The armory system isn't going to eliminate wait times for groups if the content involves more than gang beating mobs tuned for solo play. If the mobs you intend to fight actually hit hard enough to warrant a proper tank and healer, there are going to be wait times. If anyone with a healing spell can heal and any melee class can tank, it's not really challenging group content, is it?

Aurelius, you're the most annoying poster I've ever encountered on an MMO forum... thought I'd share that. Your posts aren't worth reading past the first sentence, I made the mistake of reading your posts in full before... wont make that mistake again. No need to even respond to someone who intentionally misrepresents what I'm saying.


u mad bro?

If you think he's misrepresenting what you're saying then correct him.

Wolfums wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
So while it may or may not take "hours" to build a party, the fact remains that just because several classes CAN heal or tank does not mean they WANT to. And unless you have a player who WANTS to heal and a player who WANTS to tank, you don't have a party.

The issue in FFXI was not a lack of PLD/NIN or WHM/RDM/SCH/SMN but a lack of players who wanted to perform the tank/healer role.


Don't forget that a huge amount of FFXI players also wanted a buff class in their group. If you couldn't find a tank, a healer, and a RDM/BRD/COR, you'd likely not have a group.


I intentionally left buff/refresh out of the equation because XI is one of the few games that is designed in such a way that you pretty much need one, but you are correct. It's just one more class type, like healer and tank, that you have to find someone who is WILLING to perform that role.

Most people just want to beat things up. Not nearly as many people WANT to heal or tank or buff others instead.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 3:42pm by Mikhalia
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#87 Jan 23 2011 at 2:55 PM Rating: Default
33 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
You add on a conditional to your flawed argument that makes no sense -- can you forsee the future and your crystal ball tells you that FFXIV will take hours to find/form a party? The armoury system is geared towards making it easier to fill the key roles... for example by combining Black Mage and White Mage into one class increases the number of healers dramatically, heck even THM can heal. MRD/PGL/GLA can all fill the role of tank and every class in the game can be a DPS even GLA could be spec'd to DPS.


You're ignoring one very important point:

The problem in grouping in any game (be it FFXI or FFXIV or WoW or anything) is not an issue of a lack of classes capable of performing a role, but a lack of PLAYERS who WANT to perform that role. Just because someone CAN heal doesn't mean the WANT to. Just because someone CAN tank doesn't mean they WANT to.

WoW is actually a great example of this:

Classes that can tank: Paladin, Warrior, Death Knight, Druid (Excluding situational tanks or weird tanking situations)
Classes that can heal: Priest, Druid, Shaman, Paladin
Classes that can do neither: Hunter, Rogue, Mage, Warlock

So by this logic, four of ten classes can heal and four of ten can tank. Two of them (Druid and Paladin) can heal -or- tank.

And yet how any raid groups do you see with 8/10 or 21/25 who have a handfull of these players but they're still looking for healers or tanks? Even if their gear could serve the purpose desired and even if respeccing was an option, most players would rather go with damage dealing classes. Sometimes you'll get a player who doesn't mind tanking or healing even though it's not what they'd -prefer- to do, but more often than not, asking someone who preferred a DD role to tank/heal instead is not typically met with agreement. Most players would rather disband the group and reflag as a damage dealer than agree to perform a support role and invite another DD to take their place.

In terms of FFXI, for the sake of argument, WAR and SAM could tank and DRG/mage and BLU could heal. But try convincing one to.

So while it may or may not take "hours" to build a party, the fact remains that just because several classes CAN heal or tank does not mean they WANT to. And unless you have a player who WANTS to heal and a player who WANTS to tank, you don't have a party.

The issue in FFXI was not a lack of PLD/NIN or WHM/RDM/SCH/SMN but a lack of players who wanted to perform the tank/healer role.

That's because they'd have to run to town and completely respec, typically at a huge gold cost. CON has all their spells regardless of what they spend most of their time doing, they don't need to do a whole lot to change from "BLM" to "WHM." There was an entirely different system that isn't even close to FFXIV.


For one, I've offered to pay people's respec costs for them to respec twice (once for the purpose and once to spec back) and only once has anyone ever actually agreed. For two, gold is so easy to come by that it's hardly hurtful to someone's pocket. Furthermore, dual spec pretty much shoots this argument to ****. But I'm not going to argue that point further.

The more important issue is that you're dodging the point:

What if they don't WANT to?

What if the CON just doesn't WANT to heal? What if that GLA doesn't WANT to tank?

You're just assuming that because someone CAN perform a role, that:

1) They don't mind doing it.
2) They're actually good at it.

Perhaps they are a DD because they're terrible at healing/tanking? Perhaps they're a DD because they don't WANT the responsibility of performing a role?

Like I said... DRG/mage and BLU -CAN- heal. SAM and WAR -can- tank. How many do you think will WANT to?

You can't just assume that you'll be able to whip up a party by grabbing whoever and that they won't mind healing or tanking.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 3:37pm by Mikhalia

And what if people want to switch? They can do it on the fly with greater ease than any of those games, even switching between classes. I'm planning on a MRD build that can switch between a DD and tank (FFIII Viking class ftw) -- I know I'm not alone with the building a multi-purpose job. The potential for this game to be a casual group-based game is much greater than WoW and FFXI because of how the system is set up. Stubborn people will simply have to sit around and do nothing or solo.

I'm carrying around gear for 4 different classes right now and still have 35 open inventory slots. Bag space in WoW is very limited to carry around multiple sets of gear and FFXI is notorious for not having enough places to hold gear... I hear people talking about it taking a half hour to shuffle through their mailbox, I never had a problem because I was just a 75PLD/WAR before I left for WoW because after the fun of the party grind I got bored of dealing with claimbots. You're comparing apples to oranges here.
#88 Jan 23 2011 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
ArchBlegan wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
For one, I've offered to pay people's respec costs for them to respec twice (once for the purpose and once to spec back) and only once has anyone ever actually agreed. For two, gold is so easy to come by that it's hardly hurtful to someone's pocket. Furthermore, dual spec pretty much shoots this argument to ****. But I'm not going to argue that point further.

The more important issue is that you're dodging the point:

What if they don't WANT to?

What if the CON just doesn't WANT to heal? What if that GLA doesn't WANT to tank?

You're just assuming that because someone CAN perform a role, that:

1) They don't mind doing it.
2) They're actually good at it.

Perhaps they are a DD because they're terrible at healing/tanking? Perhaps they're a DD because they don't WANT the responsibility of performing a role?

Like I said... DRG/mage and BLU -CAN- heal. SAM and WAR -can- tank. How many do you think will WANT to?

You can't just assume that you'll be able to whip up a party by grabbing whoever and that they won't mind healing or tanking.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 3:37pm by Mikhalia

And what if people want to switch? They can do it on the fly with greater ease than any of those games, even switching between classes. I'm planning on a MRD build that can switch between a DD and tank (FFIII Viking class ftw) -- I know I'm not alone with the building a multi-purpose job. The potential for this game to be a casual group-based game is much greater than WoW and FFXI because of how the system is set up. Stubborn people will simply have to sit around and do nothing or solo.

I'm carrying around gear for 4 different classes right now and still have 35 open inventory slots. Bag space in WoW is very limited to carry around multiple sets of gear and FFXI is notorious for not having enough places to hold gear... I hear people talking about it taking a half hour to shuffle through their mailbox, I never had a problem because I was just a 75PLD/WAR before I left for WoW because after the fun of the party grind I got bored of dealing with claimbots. You're comparing apples to oranges here.


If they want to, then fine. But most people DON'T want to.

Arguing "Some people might want to" does not dispute "most people don't want to". Just because you, personally, don't mind doing it does not mean that everyone will be willing to perform whatever task you decide to invite them for. Yes, some people won't mind switching. Never disputed that. My point, and a point that you haven't countered, is that MOST people WILL NOT be willing to change roles just because you ask them to, regardless of whether they CAN.

It is statistical fact that most players of online games prefer damage roles to support roles such as tanking, healing, or buffing. Your implication that they're stubborn and that they can "sit around and do nothing or solo" is misguided. They'll probably take longer to get a party, but if the only person lfp is a Conjurer who doesn't want to heal and your group needs a healer, you're sitting around doing nothing just like they are. If the only person lfp is a Gladiator and he doesn't WANT to tank, then he's still standing there but so are you.

You seem to keep trying to imply that just because you are personally willing to perform multiple roles, that -everyone- should be. This is not the case.

If there are five conjurers and three Thaumaturges lfp and none of them want to heal, then guess what? You still need to wait as long as it takes to get a healer.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 4:12pm by Mikhalia
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#89 Jan 23 2011 at 3:17 PM Rating: Default
33 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
For one, I've offered to pay people's respec costs for them to respec twice (once for the purpose and once to spec back) and only once has anyone ever actually agreed. For two, gold is so easy to come by that it's hardly hurtful to someone's pocket. Furthermore, dual spec pretty much shoots this argument to ****. But I'm not going to argue that point further.

The more important issue is that you're dodging the point:

What if they don't WANT to?

What if the CON just doesn't WANT to heal? What if that GLA doesn't WANT to tank?

You're just assuming that because someone CAN perform a role, that:

1) They don't mind doing it.
2) They're actually good at it.

Perhaps they are a DD because they're terrible at healing/tanking? Perhaps they're a DD because they don't WANT the responsibility of performing a role?

Like I said... DRG/mage and BLU -CAN- heal. SAM and WAR -can- tank. How many do you think will WANT to?

You can't just assume that you'll be able to whip up a party by grabbing whoever and that they won't mind healing or tanking.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 3:37pm by Mikhalia

And what if people want to switch? They can do it on the fly with greater ease than any of those games, even switching between classes. I'm planning on a MRD build that can switch between a DD and tank (FFIII Viking class ftw) -- I know I'm not alone with the building a multi-purpose job. The potential for this game to be a casual group-based game is much greater than WoW and FFXI because of how the system is set up. Stubborn people will simply have to sit around and do nothing or solo.

I'm carrying around gear for 4 different classes right now and still have 35 open inventory slots. Bag space in WoW is very limited to carry around multiple sets of gear and FFXI is notorious for not having enough places to hold gear... I hear people talking about it taking a half hour to shuffle through their mailbox, I never had a problem because I was just a 75PLD/WAR before I left for WoW because after the fun of the party grind I got bored of dealing with claimbots. You're comparing apples to oranges here.


If they want to, then fine. But most people DON'T want to.

Arguing "Some people might want to" does not dispute "most people don't want to". Just because you, personally, don't mind doing it does not mean that everyone will be willing to perform whatever task you decide to invite them for. Yes, some people won't mind switching. Never disputed that. My point, and a point that you haven't countered, is that MOST people WILL NOT be willing to change roles just because you ask them to, regardless of whether they CAN.

It is statical fact that most players of online games prefer damage roles to support roles such as tanking, healing, or buffing. Your implication that they're stubborn and that they can "sit around and do nothing or solo" is misguided. They'll probably take longer to get a party, but if the only person lfp is a Conjurer who doesn't want to heal and your group needs a healer, you're sitting around doing nothing just like they are. If the only person lfp is a Gladiator and he doesn't WANT to tank, then he's still standing there but so are you.

You seem to keep trying to imply that just because you are personally willing to perform multiple roles, that -everyone- should be. This is not the case.

If there are five conjurers and three Thaumaturges lfp and none of them want to heal, then guess what? You still need to wait as long as it takes to get a healer.

According to Mikhalia maybe most don't. And no one needs to ask them to change, they can choose for themselves if they want and that should be done before they receive an invite. Casual players will choose to play the game (or solo) and the people who have an hour or two to wait around can be a strict DD.

And if the only person lfp is a GLD then that means SE didn't change the battle system to support groups. Why are you people so opposed to other people having fun in FFXIV? It's like you misers want everyone to be as miserable as you. Adding the classical party mechanics does nothing to hinder your ability to solo.
#90 Jan 23 2011 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
ArchBlegan wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
For one, I've offered to pay people's respec costs for them to respec twice (once for the purpose and once to spec back) and only once has anyone ever actually agreed. For two, gold is so easy to come by that it's hardly hurtful to someone's pocket. Furthermore, dual spec pretty much shoots this argument to ****. But I'm not going to argue that point further.

The more important issue is that you're dodging the point:

What if they don't WANT to?

What if the CON just doesn't WANT to heal? What if that GLA doesn't WANT to tank?

You're just assuming that because someone CAN perform a role, that:

1) They don't mind doing it.
2) They're actually good at it.

Perhaps they are a DD because they're terrible at healing/tanking? Perhaps they're a DD because they don't WANT the responsibility of performing a role?

Like I said... DRG/mage and BLU -CAN- heal. SAM and WAR -can- tank. How many do you think will WANT to?

You can't just assume that you'll be able to whip up a party by grabbing whoever and that they won't mind healing or tanking.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 3:37pm by Mikhalia

And what if people want to switch? They can do it on the fly with greater ease than any of those games, even switching between classes. I'm planning on a MRD build that can switch between a DD and tank (FFIII Viking class ftw) -- I know I'm not alone with the building a multi-purpose job. The potential for this game to be a casual group-based game is much greater than WoW and FFXI because of how the system is set up. Stubborn people will simply have to sit around and do nothing or solo.

I'm carrying around gear for 4 different classes right now and still have 35 open inventory slots. Bag space in WoW is very limited to carry around multiple sets of gear and FFXI is notorious for not having enough places to hold gear... I hear people talking about it taking a half hour to shuffle through their mailbox, I never had a problem because I was just a 75PLD/WAR before I left for WoW because after the fun of the party grind I got bored of dealing with claimbots. You're comparing apples to oranges here.


If they want to, then fine. But most people DON'T want to.

Arguing "Some people might want to" does not dispute "most people don't want to". Just because you, personally, don't mind doing it does not mean that everyone will be willing to perform whatever task you decide to invite them for. Yes, some people won't mind switching. Never disputed that. My point, and a point that you haven't countered, is that MOST people WILL NOT be willing to change roles just because you ask them to, regardless of whether they CAN.

It is statical fact that most players of online games prefer damage roles to support roles such as tanking, healing, or buffing. Your implication that they're stubborn and that they can "sit around and do nothing or solo" is misguided. They'll probably take longer to get a party, but if the only person lfp is a Conjurer who doesn't want to heal and your group needs a healer, you're sitting around doing nothing just like they are. If the only person lfp is a Gladiator and he doesn't WANT to tank, then he's still standing there but so are you.

You seem to keep trying to imply that just because you are personally willing to perform multiple roles, that -everyone- should be. This is not the case.

If there are five conjurers and three Thaumaturges lfp and none of them want to heal, then guess what? You still need to wait as long as it takes to get a healer.

According to Mikhalia maybe most don't. And no one needs to ask them to change, they can choose for themselves if they want and that should be done before they receive an invite. Casual players will choose to play the game (or solo) and the people who have an hour or two to wait around can be a strict DD.

And if the only person lfp is a GLD then that means SE didn't change the battle system to support groups. Why are you people so opposed to other people having fun in FFXIV? It's like you misers want everyone to be as miserable as you. Adding the classical party mechanics does nothing to hinder your ability to solo.


If you think my claim is wrong, I invite you to look up the class breakdowns for any MMORPG ever and compare the amount of players who have picked support classes to the amount of players who pick pure damage dealing classes. Any data for any MMORPG you pick will support my claim. I'm not even going to point you towards any specific game, lest you try and claim why you think the data is flawed. Pick whatever game you'd like and show me statistical data for any MMORPG at all that shows an even breakdown between support players and DD players. I don't believe you'll find the data because it doesn't exist, but I invite you to disprove me statistically.

Moving on from that, I never said that I'm opposed to people having fun. I would have to counter by pointing out your silly little strawman and ask: Why is it that people who don't want to have fun -your- way are "opposed to people having fun"? Scroll up and you'll read that I support party play OVER solo play. If you read more of my posts in other threads, you'll find several points where I flat out say that I personally am not a fan of the ability to solo to cap in an MMORPG, so your claim that I have a problem with something hindering -my- ability to solo when I've argued against soloing in countless threads is rather amusing.

To sum up: I personally prefer party play and I personally do not like the notion of soloing in an MMORPG. HOWEVER, that does NOT detract from the points that:

1) As a player who prefers a game that is strictly group based and where soloing is discouraged, I am in a minority. Most people prefer soloing to be an option available to them and expect it to be equally as efficient as party play.
2) This game was pegged as a game that would be solo friendly. Changing that now is bait and switch.
3) Even when grouping is an option, a party still needs a tank and a healer.
4) Not all players who CAN tank and heal will WANT to.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 4:28pm by Mikhalia
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#91 Jan 23 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
Wolfums wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I want both. The problem is quests are either:

a) boring (dailies, repeatables, guildleves, etc.)
OR
b) limited (one-time only, gated, etc.)

I do guildleves because it is the best way to get SP - but I would rather get SP in the open world. I find it more immersive.

Some people like quests, for sure. I am not one of them. I don't see why it has to be either/or. Make it so I can get good SP in a group outside of leves and other instanced content.

Also if they add dungeons I hope they are XI style (Garliage Citidel) not WoW style. I like having open world content much more than closed world content. Yes, I know that means you might have to share content (Gods forfend!) but it really kills immersion for me if everyone is in their own little bubble world instead of outside interacting with each other.


I don't see why we can't have everything, or at least more than one way of leveling up. That's what I've been trying to argue.

Don't want quests? Make solo quest grinding give on-par experience as solo monster grinding.
Don't want instanced dungeons? Make outdoor elite areas or elite, non-instanced dungeons along with a little instanced content.

Forcing people to only group, or making soloing by far the best way to level, or making it so you only have to quest, or whatever else, is the best way to make sure you've got a sub-par MMO. I'm pulling numbers out of my **** here, but if you provide at least 3 "styles" of leveling, all roughly equal in terms of performance/items/cool-factor, you're going to have a good MMO.


Cool, then we essentially agree. ^^;
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#92 Jan 23 2011 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


In terms of FFXI, for the sake of argument, WAR and SAM could tank and DRG/mage and BLU could heal. But try convincing one to.


Actually I loved being a BLU/WHM... but never got invites... obvs it wasn't as hard to find healers as people are saying it was...
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#93 Jan 23 2011 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
**
447 posts
Aurelius wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
While I agree with you on this Aurelius, I think you're ignoring the fact that players consume content much faster than developers can implement it. The only reason MMOs currently exist is due to grinds, timesinks, and <100% drop rates. To make leveling up as "fun" as end-game, developers would have to design complex content at all level stages. When you consider the typical player remains at a particular early/mid-game level for only a few days or weeks, it's just not practical to develop such fleeting content. Or rather, no one has figured out a leveling system that remains fun and new for years and years. Even WoW style quest leveling gets old when you realize all they did was change the NPC and mob names. Instead, MMOs rely on end-game content to keep players paying for years and years. The leveling up process becomes the necessary evil in order to reach end-game.

Now if SE had spent the last 5 years productively working on content to fit MMO progression, they very well could have made leveling up fun and slow at the same time. But they didn't. And now is not the time to try to re-invent the MMO with FFXIV. Party based grinding worked in the past, and solo based quest grinding is the modern fad. SE just needs to decide which route they'll take. But trying to develop party based quest leveling up content is probably not their best use of resources right now.


I don't disagree with you in the sense that no matter what a developer...any developer...does, there's always going to be an element of repetition. That's when we MMO gamers start using the word "grind". The issue is that grouping specifically to grind mobs for SP is horribly unimaginative. Other developers have come up with far more entertaining ways to occupy groups than just running off to some spot in the world and slaughtering open world mobs. And for SE to take a step way back in the evolution of the genre to cater to such a minority niche as those who still thin grouping to grind generic mobs for leveling is the cat's meow would be a tragedy. Sure, quest centric leveling gets old, but at least it allows for a measure of diversity. I don't recall ever getting any one quest that involved grinding on the same mobs for hours and hours. If you want to do that, you can. Or if you want to do some of the quests but not all of them, you can. That's the one thing people who criticize quest-centric leveling always conveniently omit is that there's nothing in those systems that says you can't just flat grind if you want to, but most people don't want to so they go the quest route. And that says a lot. You're given two basic options: quest or grind. Just look at the option most people pick.


Sorry if I am joining the party late here. I also have a buzz, so if I don't clearly convey my message, my apologies up front.

I think the OP just doesn't communicate well or thoroughly enough support why he feels the way he does about traditional FFXI-style grinding. Here's why, and why I support traditional FFXI-style grinding as an option.

First, party in a group simply from a social aspect, is more fun to me then soloing. Not that I can't group now, but it's just not worth it. Secondly, it's not just about the grind, when I grinded in FFXI I really enjoyed it for a number of reasons. From testing out that new weapon to see how it performs compared to another one, to just just getting that new spell (dispel for example) on beetles because I know when I get to said end-game event, my timing on dispelling effect will be critical to taking down ABC NM. You see, I viewed parties as test runs on your setup, analyzing the data, all that jazz.

Now, nobody who wants this style of play is asking to take away any current systems, nor tell SE not to try and find other ways which they or others would enjoying getting SP. But, my aforementioned reasons are in my opinion, why many many players who would be playing FFXIV, aren't. Any from SE's own comments, many of the upset people were FFXI people who don't like the game, and they make up the majority.

____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#94 Jan 23 2011 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
****
9,526 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


If there are five conjurers and three Thaumaturges lfp and none of them want to heal, then guess what? You still need to wait as long as it takes to get a healer.



I don't think that what you are saying makes sense Mik, sorry. I am highly doubtful that THE MAJORITY of con/thms looking for party would rather sit around with their thumb up their bums than heal. If partying carries a reward- people will be willing be whatever role they need to in order to get a party.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#95 Jan 23 2011 at 3:45 PM Rating: Decent
**
447 posts
Wolfums wrote:


As much as I liked FFXI, the leveling in it was the worst thing out of any game I have ever played. The only thing I was looking forward to in FFXI was NOT having to level again, which is why I only took one job to 75.


The thing is, that's just your opinion. There are MANY people who liked partying (see my above post why) in FFXI. We want that as an option. Not sure why people don't understand that.
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#96 Jan 23 2011 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


In terms of FFXI, for the sake of argument, WAR and SAM could tank and DRG/mage and BLU could heal. But try convincing one to.


Actually I loved being a BLU/WHM... but never got invites... obvs it wasn't as hard to find healers as people are saying it was...


Actually, it was the opposite: Because most players assumed that a BLU was a DD, few people bothered asking a BLU to heal because they already knew what the answer was likely to be. It's the same reason that SMN had such a problem when they didn't want to heal. One of the pitfalls of XI was that certain classes had certain expectations of them; if you wanted to NOT tank as a PLD or NIN or you wanted to NOT heal as a SMN or WHM, you were in the minority and not only would you get significantly fewer party invites, you would frequently find yourself being asked to perform these roles because it was assumed of you.

BLU/WHM could be an effective healer, but if no WHM, RDM, SCH, or SMN were available, the first person to get asked to heal would usually be a BLM before a BLU.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
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#97 Jan 23 2011 at 3:48 PM Rating: Default
33 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
For one, I've offered to pay people's respec costs for them to respec twice (once for the purpose and once to spec back) and only once has anyone ever actually agreed. For two, gold is so easy to come by that it's hardly hurtful to someone's pocket. Furthermore, dual spec pretty much shoots this argument to ****. But I'm not going to argue that point further.

The more important issue is that you're dodging the point:

What if they don't WANT to?

What if the CON just doesn't WANT to heal? What if that GLA doesn't WANT to tank?

You're just assuming that because someone CAN perform a role, that:

1) They don't mind doing it.
2) They're actually good at it.

Perhaps they are a DD because they're terrible at healing/tanking? Perhaps they're a DD because they don't WANT the responsibility of performing a role?

Like I said... DRG/mage and BLU -CAN- heal. SAM and WAR -can- tank. How many do you think will WANT to?

You can't just assume that you'll be able to whip up a party by grabbing whoever and that they won't mind healing or tanking.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 3:37pm by Mikhalia

And what if people want to switch? They can do it on the fly with greater ease than any of those games, even switching between classes. I'm planning on a MRD build that can switch between a DD and tank (FFIII Viking class ftw) -- I know I'm not alone with the building a multi-purpose job. The potential for this game to be a casual group-based game is much greater than WoW and FFXI because of how the system is set up. Stubborn people will simply have to sit around and do nothing or solo.

I'm carrying around gear for 4 different classes right now and still have 35 open inventory slots. Bag space in WoW is very limited to carry around multiple sets of gear and FFXI is notorious for not having enough places to hold gear... I hear people talking about it taking a half hour to shuffle through their mailbox, I never had a problem because I was just a 75PLD/WAR before I left for WoW because after the fun of the party grind I got bored of dealing with claimbots. You're comparing apples to oranges here.


If they want to, then fine. But most people DON'T want to.

Arguing "Some people might want to" does not dispute "most people don't want to". Just because you, personally, don't mind doing it does not mean that everyone will be willing to perform whatever task you decide to invite them for. Yes, some people won't mind switching. Never disputed that. My point, and a point that you haven't countered, is that MOST people WILL NOT be willing to change roles just because you ask them to, regardless of whether they CAN.

It is statical fact that most players of online games prefer damage roles to support roles such as tanking, healing, or buffing. Your implication that they're stubborn and that they can "sit around and do nothing or solo" is misguided. They'll probably take longer to get a party, but if the only person lfp is a Conjurer who doesn't want to heal and your group needs a healer, you're sitting around doing nothing just like they are. If the only person lfp is a Gladiator and he doesn't WANT to tank, then he's still standing there but so are you.

You seem to keep trying to imply that just because you are personally willing to perform multiple roles, that -everyone- should be. This is not the case.

If there are five conjurers and three Thaumaturges lfp and none of them want to heal, then guess what? You still need to wait as long as it takes to get a healer.

According to Mikhalia maybe most don't. And no one needs to ask them to change, they can choose for themselves if they want and that should be done before they receive an invite. Casual players will choose to play the game (or solo) and the people who have an hour or two to wait around can be a strict DD.

And if the only person lfp is a GLD then that means SE didn't change the battle system to support groups. Why are you people so opposed to other people having fun in FFXIV? It's like you misers want everyone to be as miserable as you. Adding the classical party mechanics does nothing to hinder your ability to solo.


If you think my claim is wrong, I invite you to look up the class breakdowns for any MMORPG ever and compare the amount of players who have picked support classes to the amount of players who pick pure damage dealing classes. Any data for any MMORPG you pick will support my claim. I'm not even going to point you towards any specific game, lest you try and claim why you think the data is flawed. Pick whatever game you'd like and show me statistical data for any MMORPG at all that shows an even breakdown between support players and DD players. I don't believe you'll find the data because it doesn't exist, but I invite you to disprove me statistically.

Moving on from that, I never said that I'm opposed to people having fun. I would have to counter by pointing out your silly little strawman and ask: Why is it that people who don't want to have fun -your- way are "opposed to people having fun"? Scroll up and you'll read that I support party play OVER solo play. If you read more of my posts in other threads, you'll find several points where I flat out say that I personally am not a fan of the ability to solo to cap in an MMORPG, so your claim that I have a problem with something hindering -my- ability to solo when I've argued against soloing in countless threads is rather amusing.

To sum up: I personally prefer party play and I personally do not like the notion of soloing in an MMORPG. HOWEVER, that does NOT detract from the points that:

1) As a player who prefers a game that is strictly group based and where soloing is discouraged, I am in a minority. Most people prefer soloing to be an option available to them and expect it to be equally as efficient as party play.
2) This game was pegged as a game that would be solo friendly. Changing that now is bait and switch.
3) Even when grouping is an option, a party still needs a tank and a healer.
4) Not all players who CAN tank and heal will WANT to.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 4:28pm by Mikhalia

Data... lol. You got MMOs down to a science, huh? I'm sure there being far more DDs than tank/healing classes has nothing to do with the fact that the majority of people picking a DD class.

It's impossible to have a party-based system where solo'ers can level at the same efficiency. Being solo-friendly doesn't mean it has to be as efficient as grouping. I have no trouble solo'ing right now and it shouldn't be made easier... that would be ridiculous. However leveling should be a bit faster and the best way to accomplish that add parties with FFXI's exp chain. They probably wouldn't even need to adjust the current SP given, just add in a multiplier for people who can kill mobs quickly. Even solo'ers would benefit if they burn through blues, just they'd never reach the highest chain levels which is where the party experience should be greater than solo because the party is doing something the single player cannot do by himself.

By the way, keep repeating this nonsense: "4) Not all players who CAN tank and heal will WANT to." Aurelius Jr. Keep putting words in my mouth, maybe you'll "win" the argument.
#98 Jan 23 2011 at 3:49 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


If there are five conjurers and three Thaumaturges lfp and none of them want to heal, then guess what? You still need to wait as long as it takes to get a healer.



I don't think that what you are saying makes sense Mik, sorry. I am highly doubtful that THE MAJORITY of con/thms looking for party would rather sit around with their thumb up their bums than heal. If partying carries a reward- people will be willing be whatever role they need to in order to get a party.


For a THM or CON who doesn't want to heal, they would probably prefer soloing as a DD to partying as a healer.

In a situation where partying is the only option for advancement and soloing is not an option at all, then I'm sure some of them might consider healing, even though they don't want to, because some xp is better than no xp...

But it isn't really good game design if you force a player to do something they don't want to do just so that they can get XP. Such was the plight of SMNs in XI who didn't want to heal... your options were either "Level in a matter you don't enjoy" or "Don't level at all".

It wouldn't be fair to force players who prefer DD to tank/healer into a healing/tanking role because that's the ONLY way they can level up. It's not fun for them at all.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#99 Jan 23 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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1,636 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


If there are five conjurers and three Thaumaturges lfp and none of them want to heal, then guess what? You still need to wait as long as it takes to get a healer.



I don't think that what you are saying makes sense Mik, sorry. I am highly doubtful that THE MAJORITY of con/thms looking for party would rather sit around with their thumb up their bums than heal. If partying carries a reward- people will be willing be whatever role they need to in order to get a party.


I don't know, from what I"ve read on this board it seems like half of the people rolling gladiators are trying to make them red mages. I don't see those people agreeing to tank very often, if ever. Some people just flat out don't like to tank/heal, but with the armory system, they can still get plenty of enjoyment out of the classes that usually fill that role.
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#100 Jan 23 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
KnocturnalOne wrote:


I think the OP just doesn't communicate well or thoroughly enough support why he feels the way he does about traditional FFXI-style grinding. Here's why, and why I support traditional FFXI-style grinding as an option.

First, party in a group simply from a social aspect, is more fun to me then soloing. Not that I can't group now, but it's just not worth it. Secondly, it's not just about the grind, when I grinded in FFXI I really enjoyed it for a number of reasons. From testing out that new weapon to see how it performs compared to another one, to just just getting that new spell (dispel for example) on beetles because I know when I get to said end-game event, my timing on dispelling effect will be critical to taking down ABC NM. You see, I viewed parties as test runs on your setup, analyzing the data, all that jazz.

Now, nobody who wants this style of play is asking to take away any current systems, nor tell SE not to try and find other ways which they or others would enjoying getting SP. But, my aforementioned reasons are in my opinion, why many many players who would be playing FFXIV, aren't. Any from SE's own comments, many of the upset people were FFXI people who don't like the game, and they make up the majority.



Yeah! It is all about options - also the poll shows the vast majority of players came over from XI or had at least played XI - this in a world dominated by WoW. Now it is entirely possible that all those people left XI because of party grind - but the key difference is in XI that is all there was pretty much. Now there is Abbysea and stuff but when I stopped playing we just had fields of valour (which was just solo grind on a few select mobs forever - but the tabs and equipment augmenting system was kind of neat) and party leveling.

I don't think making SP rewards for parties better than they are currently would take anything away from people who want to solo to cap. It would just provide more options (and for christ's sake it wouldn't even take much dev time).

There should be easy-sauce mobs for people who want to solo - and good mobs that give higher SP for parties to take on. Simple.

No one is saying don't add side quests or continue to develop the leve system - but when we are done our leves make it so it is worthwhile to keep playing together if we want to - that is all.

I miss the tactical-ness of XI's parties - and that AHHHH feeling when the group clicked and was just chaining mobs to high heaven. It felt good to be part of a team instead of a zerging mess.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 1:52pm by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#101 Jan 23 2011 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


If there are five conjurers and three Thaumaturges lfp and none of them want to heal, then guess what? You still need to wait as long as it takes to get a healer.



I don't think that what you are saying makes sense Mik, sorry. I am highly doubtful that THE MAJORITY of con/thms looking for party would rather sit around with their thumb up their bums than heal. If partying carries a reward- people will be willing be whatever role they need to in order to get a party.


I don't know, from what I"ve read on this board it seems like half of the people rolling gladiators are trying to make them red mages. I don't see those people agreeing to tank very often, if ever. Some people just flat out don't like to tank/heal, but with the armory system, they can still get plenty of enjoyment out of the classes that usually fill that role.


Yeah, I play my GLA like a red mage when I am solo - and when I am in a group I put on abilities that make me a tank. Just cause people are playing one way now when parties are nearly non-existant outside of leves doesn't mean they hate tanking. I like tanking... however when you are soloing - provoke is not very useful on the bar, is it?
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


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