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#102 Jan 23 2011 at 3:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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9,526 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


For a THM or CON who doesn't want to heal, they would probably prefer soloing as a DD to partying as a healer.

In a situation where partying is the only option for advancement and soloing is not an option at all, then I'm sure some of them might consider healing, even though they don't want to, because some xp is better than no xp...

But it isn't really good game design if you force a player to do something they don't want to do just so that they can get XP. Such was the plight of SMNs in XI who didn't want to heal... your options were either "Level in a matter you don't enjoy" or "Don't level at all".

It wouldn't be fair to force players who prefer DD to tank/healer into a healing/tanking role because that's the ONLY way they can level up. It's not fun for them at all.


I think if you read my posts you can see I am asking for partying to be an option - not THE ONLY option. What I am saying is if you really want to party you will play whatever role you need to, right? If you don't have to party, and don't want to fill a role that is needed - you just don't need to put your flag up. Simple.

Besides - healers are going to be less a factor in a game like this where every class has healing abilities. When you can AOE everyone for super cheap - you really only need 1 healer for a party of 15, essentially - maybe two. That is still allowing so lets say 2 healers, 2 tanks for a party of up to 15? That means 11/15 people can be DD. I think that is a lot more forgiving than only 3/6 being DD (since dedicated buffers were also pretty much needed) in XI.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#103 Jan 23 2011 at 3:59 PM Rating: Decent
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11,576 posts
ArchBlegan wrote:

Aurelius, you're the most annoying poster I've ever encountered on an MMO forum... thought I'd share that. Your posts aren't worth reading past the first sentence, I made the mistake of reading your posts in full before... wont make that mistake again. No need to even respond to someone who intentionally misrepresents what I'm saying.


Normally when someone says that, it's because I called them on being wrong, they know they're wrong, and they don't have the testicular fortitude to just bow out. Whatever floats your boat.
#104 Jan 23 2011 at 4:02 PM Rating: Excellent
****
9,526 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


In terms of FFXI, for the sake of argument, WAR and SAM could tank and DRG/mage and BLU could heal. But try convincing one to.


Actually I loved being a BLU/WHM... but never got invites... obvs it wasn't as hard to find healers as people are saying it was...


Actually, it was the opposite: Because most players assumed that a BLU was a DD, few people bothered asking a BLU to heal because they already knew what the answer was likely to be.


Well people are dumb as rocks if they couldn't figure out someone with BLU/WHM with their flag up wanted to be a healer. I even put it in my comment! (healing) (do you need it?)
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#105 Jan 23 2011 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
33 posts
Aurelius wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:

Aurelius, you're the most annoying poster I've ever encountered on an MMO forum... thought I'd share that. Your posts aren't worth reading past the first sentence, I made the mistake of reading your posts in full before... wont make that mistake again. No need to even respond to someone who intentionally misrepresents what I'm saying.


Normally when someone says that, it's because I called them on being wrong, they know they're wrong, and they don't have the testicular fortitude to just bow out. Whatever floats your boat.

Nah man, it's because your posts are annoying.
#106 Jan 23 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
322 posts
ArchBlegan wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:

Aurelius, you're the most annoying poster I've ever encountered on an MMO forum... thought I'd share that. Your posts aren't worth reading past the first sentence, I made the mistake of reading your posts in full before... wont make that mistake again. No need to even respond to someone who intentionally misrepresents what I'm saying.


Normally when someone says that, it's because I called them on being wrong, they know they're wrong, and they don't have the testicular fortitude to just bow out. Whatever floats your boat.


Nah man, it's because your posts are annoying.


^^
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#107 Jan 23 2011 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
ArchBlegan wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
For one, I've offered to pay people's respec costs for them to respec twice (once for the purpose and once to spec back) and only once has anyone ever actually agreed. For two, gold is so easy to come by that it's hardly hurtful to someone's pocket. Furthermore, dual spec pretty much shoots this argument to ****. But I'm not going to argue that point further.

The more important issue is that you're dodging the point:

What if they don't WANT to?

What if the CON just doesn't WANT to heal? What if that GLA doesn't WANT to tank?

You're just assuming that because someone CAN perform a role, that:

1) They don't mind doing it.
2) They're actually good at it.

Perhaps they are a DD because they're terrible at healing/tanking? Perhaps they're a DD because they don't WANT the responsibility of performing a role?

Like I said... DRG/mage and BLU -CAN- heal. SAM and WAR -can- tank. How many do you think will WANT to?

You can't just assume that you'll be able to whip up a party by grabbing whoever and that they won't mind healing or tanking.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 3:37pm by Mikhalia

And what if people want to switch? They can do it on the fly with greater ease than any of those games, even switching between classes. I'm planning on a MRD build that can switch between a DD and tank (FFIII Viking class ftw) -- I know I'm not alone with the building a multi-purpose job. The potential for this game to be a casual group-based game is much greater than WoW and FFXI because of how the system is set up. Stubborn people will simply have to sit around and do nothing or solo.

I'm carrying around gear for 4 different classes right now and still have 35 open inventory slots. Bag space in WoW is very limited to carry around multiple sets of gear and FFXI is notorious for not having enough places to hold gear... I hear people talking about it taking a half hour to shuffle through their mailbox, I never had a problem because I was just a 75PLD/WAR before I left for WoW because after the fun of the party grind I got bored of dealing with claimbots. You're comparing apples to oranges here.


If they want to, then fine. But most people DON'T want to.

Arguing "Some people might want to" does not dispute "most people don't want to". Just because you, personally, don't mind doing it does not mean that everyone will be willing to perform whatever task you decide to invite them for. Yes, some people won't mind switching. Never disputed that. My point, and a point that you haven't countered, is that MOST people WILL NOT be willing to change roles just because you ask them to, regardless of whether they CAN.

It is statical fact that most players of online games prefer damage roles to support roles such as tanking, healing, or buffing. Your implication that they're stubborn and that they can "sit around and do nothing or solo" is misguided. They'll probably take longer to get a party, but if the only person lfp is a Conjurer who doesn't want to heal and your group needs a healer, you're sitting around doing nothing just like they are. If the only person lfp is a Gladiator and he doesn't WANT to tank, then he's still standing there but so are you.

You seem to keep trying to imply that just because you are personally willing to perform multiple roles, that -everyone- should be. This is not the case.

If there are five conjurers and three Thaumaturges lfp and none of them want to heal, then guess what? You still need to wait as long as it takes to get a healer.

According to Mikhalia maybe most don't. And no one needs to ask them to change, they can choose for themselves if they want and that should be done before they receive an invite. Casual players will choose to play the game (or solo) and the people who have an hour or two to wait around can be a strict DD.

And if the only person lfp is a GLD then that means SE didn't change the battle system to support groups. Why are you people so opposed to other people having fun in FFXIV? It's like you misers want everyone to be as miserable as you. Adding the classical party mechanics does nothing to hinder your ability to solo.


If you think my claim is wrong, I invite you to look up the class breakdowns for any MMORPG ever and compare the amount of players who have picked support classes to the amount of players who pick pure damage dealing classes. Any data for any MMORPG you pick will support my claim. I'm not even going to point you towards any specific game, lest you try and claim why you think the data is flawed. Pick whatever game you'd like and show me statistical data for any MMORPG at all that shows an even breakdown between support players and DD players. I don't believe you'll find the data because it doesn't exist, but I invite you to disprove me statistically.

Moving on from that, I never said that I'm opposed to people having fun. I would have to counter by pointing out your silly little strawman and ask: Why is it that people who don't want to have fun -your- way are "opposed to people having fun"? Scroll up and you'll read that I support party play OVER solo play. If you read more of my posts in other threads, you'll find several points where I flat out say that I personally am not a fan of the ability to solo to cap in an MMORPG, so your claim that I have a problem with something hindering -my- ability to solo when I've argued against soloing in countless threads is rather amusing.

To sum up: I personally prefer party play and I personally do not like the notion of soloing in an MMORPG. HOWEVER, that does NOT detract from the points that:

1) As a player who prefers a game that is strictly group based and where soloing is discouraged, I am in a minority. Most people prefer soloing to be an option available to them and expect it to be equally as efficient as party play.
2) This game was pegged as a game that would be solo friendly. Changing that now is bait and switch.
3) Even when grouping is an option, a party still needs a tank and a healer.
4) Not all players who CAN tank and heal will WANT to.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 4:28pm by Mikhalia

Data... lol. You got MMOs down to a science, huh? I'm sure there being far more DDs than tank/healing classes has nothing to do with the fact that the majority of people picking a DD class.

It's impossible to have a party-based system where solo'ers can level at the same efficiency. Being solo-friendly doesn't mean it has to be as efficient as grouping. I have no trouble solo'ing right now and it shouldn't be made easier... that would be ridiculous. However leveling should be a bit faster and the best way to accomplish that add parties with FFXI's exp chain. They probably wouldn't even need to adjust the current SP given, just add in a multiplier for people who can kill mobs quickly. Even solo'ers would benefit if they burn through blues, just they'd never reach the highest chain levels which is where the party experience should be greater than solo because the party is doing something the single player cannot do by himself.

By the way, keep repeating this nonsense: "4) Not all players who CAN tank and heal will WANT to." Aurelius Jr. Keep putting words in my mouth, maybe you'll "win" the argument.


If more people wanted to tank or heal, then you would notice more people per class picking those classes. And yes, if more people wanted to tank and heal, there would be more tanks and healers, regardless of the number of classes. Again, pick a game that has a higher amount of classes that can tank/heal like Allods or DDO.

For that matter, 60% of WoW classes are capable of either healing or tanking. Go dig up some data on Paladins who are prot vs ret vs holy or Druids who are resto vs balance vs feral and compare which specs have more people. Again, I told you to pick whatever game you like.

FFXI's exp chain was a terrible idea and should not be added because of its overemphasis on optimal performance.

Want to debate that? Read this post where I spell out the math.

In that situation, partying is infinitely superior to solo play, but at the cost of punishing any player who has a less than optimal build, since hte difference between chain 5 versus chain 6+ is nearly 250% of the amount of xp.

If your argument is that there should be some benefits to partying over soloing, then I have never disagreed. If your argument is that all parties should always provide more xp than all soloing in all cases just by virtue of being in a party, then I would have to disagree. Again, I am personally IN FAVOR of party play, but it isn't fair to soloers to ***** them just because -I- want to party.

Finally:

ArchBlegan wrote:
By the way, keep repeating this nonsense: "4) Not all players who CAN tank and heal will WANT to." Aurelius Jr. Keep putting words in my mouth, maybe you'll "win" the argument.


Where did I put words in your mouth? Those are my words, not yours. I don't get how you can quote something I'm saying and say that I'm putting words in your mouth.

Considering you have totally ignored the first three points, and you STILL haven't disproven that point. I'd say I've won the argument long ago.

Again: My primary points are fourfold. Since you're apparently bad at arguing, I'll explain how you can win.

1) As a player who prefers a game that is strictly group based and where soloing is discouraged, I am in a minority. Most people prefer soloing to be an option available to them and expect it to be equally as efficient as party play.

To dispute this point: Please explain how the notion of wanting to play in a group in an environment where soloing is discouraged DOES NOT place you in the minority and/or prove to me that most people DO NOT prefer soloing, or that soloers are okay with a system where partying is always better xp than soloing.

2) This game was pegged as a game that would be solo friendly. Changing that now is bait and switch.

To dispute this point: Please prove how FFXIV was ever intended to be primarily party oriented, or that the game was never intended to be solo friendly.

3) Even when grouping is an option, a party still needs a tank and a healer.

To dispute this point: Explain how grouping could be more efficient than soloing without a tank and a healer.

4) Not all players who CAN tank and heal will WANT to.

To dispute this point: Prove to me that MOST players ARE willing to perform any role their class is capable of.


Seriously, I've made point after point and you have been unable to dispute any of them. All you're doing is throwing up smokescreens and strawmen to try to obfuscate the issue, even to the point of accusing me of putting words in your mouth.

If you think I'm wrong, stop dancing around and provide some PROOF that explains why and how I'm wrong. Some data, some statistics, SOMETHING. All you have are a few examples of perception bias where you believe that because you saw something somewhere or because you believe that something is theoretically possible, that this somehow makes it likely to happen.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#108 Jan 23 2011 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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447 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:


I miss the tactical-ness of XI's parties - and that AHHHH feeling when the group clicked and was just chaining mobs to high heaven. It felt good to be part of a team instead of a zerging mess.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 1:52pm by Olorinus


Exactly. I was the party leader 98% of the time in XI, so when they were huge success, when people said things like "this is the best party I've ever had", you really felt special.

I miss that feeling.
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#109 Jan 23 2011 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,539 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I think if you read my posts you can see I am asking for partying to be an option - not THE ONLY option. What I am saying is if you really want to party you will play whatever role you need to, right? If you don't have to party, and don't want to fill a role that is needed - you just don't need to put your flag up. Simple.

Besides - healers are going to be less a factor in a game like this where every class has healing abilities. When you can AOE everyone for super cheap - you really only need 1 healer for a party of 15, essentially - maybe two. That is still allowing so lets say 2 healers, 2 tanks for a party of up to 15? That means 11/15 people can be DD. I think that is a lot more forgiving than only 3/6 being DD (since dedicated buffers were also pretty much needed) in XI.


First, I've said since the beginning that I believe the game needs more incentive to party, because I hate soloing on an MMO. I really do wish that partying was a better option than it currently is.

As for whether a DD mage will be willing to heal if it gets them a party? That depends on the person. Surely people who prefer to DD would prefer to join a party as a DD versus as a healer, that's obvious. As to whether they would accept a party invite as a role they don't like just to be in a party? Most people won't, but some will. It really depends on the person.

I do agree that the hybrid nature of the armory system places less emphasis on having a dedicated healer though.

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


In terms of FFXI, for the sake of argument, WAR and SAM could tank and DRG/mage and BLU could heal. But try convincing one to.


Actually I loved being a BLU/WHM... but never got invites... obvs it wasn't as hard to find healers as people are saying it was...


Actually, it was the opposite: Because most players assumed that a BLU was a DD, few people bothered asking a BLU to heal because they already knew what the answer was likely to be.


Well people are dumb as rocks if they couldn't figure out someone with BLU/WHM with their flag up wanted to be a healer. I even put it in my comment! (healing) (do you need it?)


Yes, people are dumb as rocks. This is news? :)
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#110 Jan 23 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
Woo first post!! but any in FFXI I was a SMN personally sure it's wasn't always fun being a main heal in party but I picked to play that role only because it was faster to party. I could always solo it I wanted to but partying was just faster which is why the option of being able to party is something good to have. I still soloed when playing SMN but being able to have that option to party is always welcome in imo at least
#111 Jan 23 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
ArchBlegan wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:

Aurelius, you're the most annoying poster I've ever encountered on an MMO forum... thought I'd share that. Your posts aren't worth reading past the first sentence, I made the mistake of reading your posts in full before... wont make that mistake again. No need to even respond to someone who intentionally misrepresents what I'm saying.


Normally when someone says that, it's because I called them on being wrong, they know they're wrong, and they don't have the testicular fortitude to just bow out. Whatever floats your boat.

Nah man, it's because your posts are annoying.


Out of curiosity, when he makes an annoying post and you know he's right and can't argue with him, does that make him more annoying?

Am I annoying too, sine I'm also correct and you have been as of yet unable to counter -anything- I've said with any actual proof? Is your inability to actually disprove any point I've made so far making me more or less annoying?
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#112 Jan 23 2011 at 4:16 PM Rating: Default
33 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
For one, I've offered to pay people's respec costs for them to respec twice (once for the purpose and once to spec back) and only once has anyone ever actually agreed. For two, gold is so easy to come by that it's hardly hurtful to someone's pocket. Furthermore, dual spec pretty much shoots this argument to ****. But I'm not going to argue that point further.

The more important issue is that you're dodging the point:

What if they don't WANT to?

What if the CON just doesn't WANT to heal? What if that GLA doesn't WANT to tank?

You're just assuming that because someone CAN perform a role, that:

1) They don't mind doing it.
2) They're actually good at it.

Perhaps they are a DD because they're terrible at healing/tanking? Perhaps they're a DD because they don't WANT the responsibility of performing a role?

Like I said... DRG/mage and BLU -CAN- heal. SAM and WAR -can- tank. How many do you think will WANT to?

You can't just assume that you'll be able to whip up a party by grabbing whoever and that they won't mind healing or tanking.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 3:37pm by Mikhalia

And what if people want to switch? They can do it on the fly with greater ease than any of those games, even switching between classes. I'm planning on a MRD build that can switch between a DD and tank (FFIII Viking class ftw) -- I know I'm not alone with the building a multi-purpose job. The potential for this game to be a casual group-based game is much greater than WoW and FFXI because of how the system is set up. Stubborn people will simply have to sit around and do nothing or solo.

I'm carrying around gear for 4 different classes right now and still have 35 open inventory slots. Bag space in WoW is very limited to carry around multiple sets of gear and FFXI is notorious for not having enough places to hold gear... I hear people talking about it taking a half hour to shuffle through their mailbox, I never had a problem because I was just a 75PLD/WAR before I left for WoW because after the fun of the party grind I got bored of dealing with claimbots. You're comparing apples to oranges here.


If they want to, then fine. But most people DON'T want to.

Arguing "Some people might want to" does not dispute "most people don't want to". Just because you, personally, don't mind doing it does not mean that everyone will be willing to perform whatever task you decide to invite them for. Yes, some people won't mind switching. Never disputed that. My point, and a point that you haven't countered, is that MOST people WILL NOT be willing to change roles just because you ask them to, regardless of whether they CAN.

It is statical fact that most players of online games prefer damage roles to support roles such as tanking, healing, or buffing. Your implication that they're stubborn and that they can "sit around and do nothing or solo" is misguided. They'll probably take longer to get a party, but if the only person lfp is a Conjurer who doesn't want to heal and your group needs a healer, you're sitting around doing nothing just like they are. If the only person lfp is a Gladiator and he doesn't WANT to tank, then he's still standing there but so are you.

You seem to keep trying to imply that just because you are personally willing to perform multiple roles, that -everyone- should be. This is not the case.

If there are five conjurers and three Thaumaturges lfp and none of them want to heal, then guess what? You still need to wait as long as it takes to get a healer.

According to Mikhalia maybe most don't. And no one needs to ask them to change, they can choose for themselves if they want and that should be done before they receive an invite. Casual players will choose to play the game (or solo) and the people who have an hour or two to wait around can be a strict DD.

And if the only person lfp is a GLD then that means SE didn't change the battle system to support groups. Why are you people so opposed to other people having fun in FFXIV? It's like you misers want everyone to be as miserable as you. Adding the classical party mechanics does nothing to hinder your ability to solo.


If you think my claim is wrong, I invite you to look up the class breakdowns for any MMORPG ever and compare the amount of players who have picked support classes to the amount of players who pick pure damage dealing classes. Any data for any MMORPG you pick will support my claim. I'm not even going to point you towards any specific game, lest you try and claim why you think the data is flawed. Pick whatever game you'd like and show me statistical data for any MMORPG at all that shows an even breakdown between support players and DD players. I don't believe you'll find the data because it doesn't exist, but I invite you to disprove me statistically.

Moving on from that, I never said that I'm opposed to people having fun. I would have to counter by pointing out your silly little strawman and ask: Why is it that people who don't want to have fun -your- way are "opposed to people having fun"? Scroll up and you'll read that I support party play OVER solo play. If you read more of my posts in other threads, you'll find several points where I flat out say that I personally am not a fan of the ability to solo to cap in an MMORPG, so your claim that I have a problem with something hindering -my- ability to solo when I've argued against soloing in countless threads is rather amusing.

To sum up: I personally prefer party play and I personally do not like the notion of soloing in an MMORPG. HOWEVER, that does NOT detract from the points that:

1) As a player who prefers a game that is strictly group based and where soloing is discouraged, I am in a minority. Most people prefer soloing to be an option available to them and expect it to be equally as efficient as party play.
2) This game was pegged as a game that would be solo friendly. Changing that now is bait and switch.
3) Even when grouping is an option, a party still needs a tank and a healer.
4) Not all players who CAN tank and heal will WANT to.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 4:28pm by Mikhalia

Data... lol. You got MMOs down to a science, huh? I'm sure there being far more DDs than tank/healing classes has nothing to do with the fact that the majority of people picking a DD class.

It's impossible to have a party-based system where solo'ers can level at the same efficiency. Being solo-friendly doesn't mean it has to be as efficient as grouping. I have no trouble solo'ing right now and it shouldn't be made easier... that would be ridiculous. However leveling should be a bit faster and the best way to accomplish that add parties with FFXI's exp chain. They probably wouldn't even need to adjust the current SP given, just add in a multiplier for people who can kill mobs quickly. Even solo'ers would benefit if they burn through blues, just they'd never reach the highest chain levels which is where the party experience should be greater than solo because the party is doing something the single player cannot do by himself.

By the way, keep repeating this nonsense: "4) Not all players who CAN tank and heal will WANT to." Aurelius Jr. Keep putting words in my mouth, maybe you'll "win" the argument.


If more people wanted to tank or heal, then you would notice more people per class picking those classes. And yes, if more people wanted to tank and heal, there would be more tanks and healers, regardless of the number of classes. Again, pick a game that has a higher amount of classes that can tank/heal like Allods or DDO.

For that matter, 60% of WoW classes are capable of either healing or tanking. Go dig up some data on Paladins who are prot vs ret vs holy or Druids who are resto vs balance vs feral and compare which specs have more people. Again, I told you to pick whatever game you like.

FFXI's exp chain was a terrible idea and should not be added because of its overemphasis on optimal performance.

Want to debate that? Read this post where I spell out the math.

In that situation, partying is infinitely superior to solo play, but at the cost of punishing any player who has a less than optimal build, since hte difference between chain 5 versus chain 6+ is nearly 250% of the amount of xp.

If your argument is that there should be some benefits to partying over soloing, then I have never disagreed. If your argument is that all parties should always provide more xp than all soloing in all cases just by virtue of being in a party, then I would have to disagree. Again, I am personally IN FAVOR of party play, but it isn't fair to soloers to ***** them just because -I- want to party.

Finally:

ArchBlegan wrote:
By the way, keep repeating this nonsense: "4) Not all players who CAN tank and heal will WANT to." Aurelius Jr. Keep putting words in my mouth, maybe you'll "win" the argument.


Where did I put words in your mouth? Those are my words, not yours. I don't get how you can quote something I'm saying and say that I'm putting words in your mouth.

Considering you have totally ignored the first three points, and you STILL haven't disproven that point. I'd say I've won the argument long ago.

Again: My primary points are fourfold. Since you're apparently bad at arguing, I'll explain how you can win.

1) As a player who prefers a game that is strictly group based and where soloing is discouraged, I am in a minority. Most people prefer soloing to be an option available to them and expect it to be equally as efficient as party play.

To dispute this point: Please explain how the notion of wanting to play in a group in an environment where soloing is discouraged DOES NOT place you in the minority and/or prove to me that most people DO NOT prefer soloing, or that soloers are okay with a system where partying is always better xp than soloing.

2) This game was pegged as a game that would be solo friendly. Changing that now is bait and switch.

To dispute this point: Please prove how FFXIV was ever intended to be primarily party oriented, or that the game was never intended to be solo friendly.

3) Even when grouping is an option, a party still needs a tank and a healer.

To dispute this point: Explain how grouping could be more efficient than soloing without a tank and a healer.

4) Not all players who CAN tank and heal will WANT to.

To dispute this point: Prove to me that MOST players ARE willing to perform any role their class is capable of.


Seriously, I've made point after point and you have been unable to dispute any of them. All you're doing is throwing up smokescreens and strawmen to try to obfuscate the issue, even to the point of accusing me of putting words in your mouth.

If you think I'm wrong, stop dancing around and provide some PROOF that explains why and how I'm wrong. Some data, some statistics, SOMETHING. All you have are a few examples of perception bias where you believe that because you saw something somewhere or because you believe that something is theoretically possible, that this somehow makes it likely to happen.

Yeah, they choose to not be a dedicated healer/tank, that doesn't mean they wouldn't mind doing it from time to time. Sounds like a good break from the normal grind to me. And WoW's system required specialization. A warrior in WoW can't just switch from tank to DD wearing the same gear without being a huge gimp, they were virtually stuck on one class because of the dungeon's NB4G. Why do you intentionally leave out this information? You sound like you have a serious agenda right now... are you a WoW employee or something?

EDIT: And no, I don't want to read more of your posts in other threads about your "math" (again LOL @ you for that crap)

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 5:17pm by ArchBlegan
#113 Jan 23 2011 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent
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447 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I think if you read my posts you can see I am asking for partying to be an option - not THE ONLY option. What I am saying is if you really want to party you will play whatever role you need to, right? If you don't have to party, and don't want to fill a role that is needed - you just don't need to put your flag up. Simple.

Besides - healers are going to be less a factor in a game like this where every class has healing abilities. When you can AOE everyone for super cheap - you really only need 1 healer for a party of 15, essentially - maybe two. That is still allowing so lets say 2 healers, 2 tanks for a party of up to 15? That means 11/15 people can be DD. I think that is a lot more forgiving than only 3/6 being DD (since dedicated buffers were also pretty much needed) in XI.


First, I've said since the beginning that I believe the game needs more incentive to party, because I hate soloing on an MMO. I really do wish that partying was a better option than it currently is.

As for whether a DD mage will be willing to heal if it gets them a party? That depends on the person. Surely people who prefer to DD would prefer to join a party as a DD versus as a healer, that's obvious. As to whether they would accept a party invite as a role they don't like just to be in a party? Most people won't, but some will. It really depends on the person.

I do agree that the hybrid nature of the armory system places less emphasis on having a dedicated healer though.

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


In terms of FFXI, for the sake of argument, WAR and SAM could tank and DRG/mage and BLU could heal. But try convincing one to.


Actually I loved being a BLU/WHM... but never got invites... obvs it wasn't as hard to find healers as people are saying it was...


Actually, it was the opposite: Because most players assumed that a BLU was a DD, few people bothered asking a BLU to heal because they already knew what the answer was likely to be.


Well people are dumb as rocks if they couldn't figure out someone with BLU/WHM with their flag up wanted to be a healer. I even put it in my comment! (healing) (do you need it?)


Yes, people are dumb as rocks. This is news? :)


I wouldn't invite a BLU/WHM to heal in a party because it usually wasn't the most efficient choice for a slot in my party setups.
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#114 Jan 23 2011 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent
35 posts
I really like the idea of need to grind XP or SP, and not because it is the most fun thing to do. I enjoy it because after you spend soooo much time gaining that last level, it makes every reward for that grind that much more satisfying.

I also believe having a long and sometimes tedious grind effects the player base. I have no proof as to whether it does or not, but it seemed as if the FFXI player base was more mature, more nice, more intelligent. I don't mean to insult anyone either, but most people know there are MANY a-holes around the online world. Just a theory.

The grind doesn't have to be group vrs world-mob, or quest-based, or anything specific. I'd say, balance out many different versions of the grind, and give them all to us to decide how they are used. If you want something easy and immediately self-gratifying, go play a game like that. Hardly any of the Final Fantasy genre has been that though, I don't want XIV to be. I want the grind, and like I said, not because it is the most fun thing.

A couple things that would solve the problem of the grind in this game are:

1) A more strategic and challenging system of battle. The button mash just isn't enjoyable.
2) Content that gives you purpose for grinding out those levels. There is nothing to aim for at the moment.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 5:19pm by SirEdmundBurke
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#115 Jan 23 2011 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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429 posts
KnocturnalOne wrote:
Wolfums wrote:


As much as I liked FFXI, the leveling in it was the worst thing out of any game I have ever played. The only thing I was looking forward to in FFXI was NOT having to level again, which is why I only took one job to 75.


The thing is, that's just your opinion. There are MANY people who liked partying (see my above post why) in FFXI. We want that as an option. Not sure why people don't understand that.


Sure, that should always be an option. But it shouldn't be the only option, which is what I was getting at with FFXI's system.

I think that saying that a lot of people in FFXI enjoyed the group grind is a little inaccurate, seeing as how for the longest time it was the ONLY option available for leveling characters. Then when they put in solo stuff, partying was still miles better than trying to solo.
#116 Jan 23 2011 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
SugarDoodle wrote:
Woo first post!! but any in FFXI I was a SMN personally sure it's wasn't always fun being a main heal in party but I picked to play that role only because it was faster to party. I could always solo it I wanted to but partying was just faster which is why the option of being able to party is something good to have. I still soloed when playing SMN but being able to have that option to party is always welcome in imo at least


Question: If you could get equal XP solo or in a party, would you rather party as a healer, or would you rather solo with your pets?
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#117 Jan 23 2011 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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11,576 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I think if you read my posts you can see I am asking for partying to be an option - not THE ONLY option. What I am saying is if you really want to party you will play whatever role you need to, right? If you don't have to party, and don't want to fill a role that is needed - you just don't need to put your flag up. Simple.

Besides - healers are going to be less a factor in a game like this where every class has healing abilities. When you can AOE everyone for super cheap - you really only need 1 healer for a party of 15, essentially - maybe two. That is still allowing so lets say 2 healers, 2 tanks for a party of up to 15? That means 11/15 people can be DD. I think that is a lot more forgiving than only 3/6 being DD (since dedicated buffers were also pretty much needed) in XI.


As a basic concept or a theory, that's all fine. But it can't end there. You have to further the thought process to what exactly you're going to be doing with that massive party that warrants the SP you're earning.

So what could SE possibly do to make it so that your massive party is actually challenged in some way with entertaining combat mechanics? You can't just bump up the rank of mobs they're fighting with a static SP system, because it's more than just mob HP and incoming damage to players that has to be taken into account. You have to take into account hit rates and magic resistances and all that other stuff that doesn't scale to parties fighting mobs that were tuned to be fought solo.

So do you set aside massive segments of the world and fill them with elite mobs for groups to grind on? No. You can't do that kind of thing without alienating solo players because of the time and money it takes to develop the environments. That's why MMO studios instance group content. You can develop an environment and fill it with mobs tuned for group play and then have many, many groups participating in that content without having to compete for respawns. It's a functional element that allows developers to duplicate their efforts as often as the server resources allow, and while I don't disagree that it comes at the cost of decreased immersion, that decrease in immersion is the lesser of two evils. If tons of people are forming tons of groups and going into the group content, you have to exceed server load before groups arrive to find nothing for them. If you try and do it all in the open world, you can fit far fewer groups into an area before they start tripping over one another.

I've never taken issue with anyone who says, "I like to do <this> and I would like to be able to progress at a reasonable rate while doing it." Where I take issue is when <this> requires alienating people who prefer <that>. And as players, it's easy for us to come up with all these theories and ideas based on our narrow views, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a successful MMO.
#118 Jan 23 2011 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
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KnocturnalOne wrote:

I wouldn't invite a BLU/WHM to heal in a party because it usually wasn't the most efficient choice for a slot in my party setups.


More efficient than standing around getting 0 xp

:)
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#119 Jan 23 2011 at 4:22 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
ArchBlegan wrote:
Yeah, they choose to not be a dedicated healer/tank, that doesn't mean they wouldn't mind doing it from time to time. Sounds like a good break from the normal grind to me. And WoW's system required specialization. A warrior in WoW can't just switch from tank to DD wearing the same gear without being a huge gimp, they were virtually stuck on one class because of the dungeon's NB4G. Why do you intentionally leave out this information? You sound like you have a serious agenda right now... are you a WoW employee or something?

EDIT: And no, I don't want to read more of your posts in other threads about your "math" (again LOL @ you for that crap)

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 5:17pm by ArchBlegan


No, it doesn't mean that they wouldn't mind. It ALSO doesn't mean that they are willing to. What part of "Just because some people might want to do X does not mean all people will want to do X" do you not understand?

No, a Warrior in WoW typically can't switch from tank to DD without changing gear. But what about the fact that you could always carry two sets of gear? I carried Fury gear and Protection gear on my Warrior so that I could DD or tank. Most Warriors did not do this.

As for not reading other posts... first you have no proof to counter anything I'm saying, now you're admitting that you're wilfully disregarding the proof I am providing you.

So if you're going to not only NOT provide any proof whatsoever, but ALSO ignore the data that is inconvenient for you, then how confident are you you in your own words? Yet again, you dance around my points.

You STILL haven't disproven anything. Your only rebuttal to all four of my points was "Some people might want a change of pace" and "Warriors need a second set of gear for an off-spec".
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#120 Jan 23 2011 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
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447 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:

I wouldn't invite a BLU/WHM to heal in a party because it usually wasn't the most efficient choice for a slot in my party setups.


More efficient than standing around getting 0 xp

:)


I don't know why everyone stood around doing nothing. There were plenty of things for me to do if I couldn't get a party on a particular job, e.g. work on a storyline mission, change to another job, go farm something, etc. etc.

Plus, most of the people who 'stood around getting 0 XP', were usually too lazy to make a party of their own and waited for someone to invite them.

:)~

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 5:25pm by KnocturnalOne
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#121 Jan 23 2011 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:

I wouldn't invite a BLU/WHM to heal in a party because it usually wasn't the most efficient choice for a slot in my party setups.


More efficient than standing around getting 0 xp

:)


Indeed it is, but doesn't that lend more credence to the fact that people who prefer a given role are more likely to perform roles they dislike only in situations where the penalty for not doing so is severely harsh? (In this case, it's either "do something you don't like" or "no xp at all")

If you actually provide players the OPTION of partying OR soloing, then these same players would lend themselves to soloing in a role they enjoy before they'd party in a role they don't enjoy UNLESS the partying option is significantly more efficient, e.g. FFXI.
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#122 Jan 23 2011 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
Aurelius wrote:

So do you set aside massive segments of the world and fill them with elite mobs for groups to grind on? No. You can't do that kind of thing without alienating solo players because of the time and money it takes to develop the environments.


You don't need to "set aside" areas for party grinds - just have some mobs tuned for parties - in the same zones as mobs not tuned for parties. Crikes, this game has a lot of empty space still - and new zones WILL be added. Is anyone in Coerthas? Mor Dhona? No. Almost no one in those zones. While I realize part of that is just the incredibly small server populations we have - the other part is there is just no point in going to those zones... no behest, no leves... nothing but a couple of NMs...

XI had things work great for parties - yes, sometimes the camps were full - but people just moved on or made due.

Also soloers still would have behest and leves etc. so I don't see how changing some goats into mobs people can party on would hurt anything (or even making the goats worth partying on)... I don't agree with you that group content needs to be instanced.

Yes, occasionally it will be inconvenient for people cause they will want to party somewhere that is already camped - but if you have enough areas to choose from - that won't be a big deal.

People who solo can have rats and coblyns, etc. small, non-epic mobs that they can safely grind away on.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#123 Jan 23 2011 at 4:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
Aurelius wrote:
I've never taken issue with anyone who says, "I like to do <this> and I would like to be able to progress at a reasonable rate while doing it." Where I take issue is when <this> requires alienating people who prefer <that>. And as players, it's easy for us to come up with all these theories and ideas based on our narrow views, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a successful MMO.


I have to agree with this point. Even though I personally prefer partying and dislike soloing, I support the idea of having a game where soloing -and- partying are both equally acceptable options. The problem is, it's very difficult to balance this. No matter what you do, you're nearly always going to end up with the result that either partying blows soloing away (in which case, soloers are hurt) or that soloing is just as good as partying (in which case party play suffers since many people would rather just solo).

It's a very difficult balancing game and for everything you add to appease one group, you take a little away from the other group.

EDIT: Honestly, I like the idea of setting aside certain zones for leveling groups and having other zones be solo zones. I think that's fine. *shrug*.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 5:32pm by Mikhalia
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#124 Jan 23 2011 at 4:31 PM Rating: Decent
33 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
Yeah, they choose to not be a dedicated healer/tank, that doesn't mean they wouldn't mind doing it from time to time. Sounds like a good break from the normal grind to me. And WoW's system required specialization. A warrior in WoW can't just switch from tank to DD wearing the same gear without being a huge gimp, they were virtually stuck on one class because of the dungeon's NB4G. Why do you intentionally leave out this information? You sound like you have a serious agenda right now... are you a WoW employee or something?

EDIT: And no, I don't want to read more of your posts in other threads about your "math" (again LOL @ you for that crap)

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 5:17pm by ArchBlegan


No, it doesn't mean that they wouldn't mind. It ALSO doesn't mean that they are willing to. What part of "Just because some people might want to do X does not mean all people will want to do X" do you not understand?

No, a Warrior in WoW typically can't switch from tank to DD without changing gear. But what about the fact that you could always carry two sets of gear? I carried Fury gear and Protection gear on my Warrior so that I could DD or tank. Most Warriors did not do this.

As for not reading other posts... first you have no proof to counter anything I'm saying, now you're admitting that you're wilfully disregarding the proof I am providing you.

So if you're going to not only NOT provide any proof whatsoever, but ALSO ignore the data that is inconvenient for you, then how confident are you you in your own words? Yet again, you dance around my points.

You STILL haven't disproven anything. Your only rebuttal to all four of my points was "Some people might want a change of pace" and "Warriors need a second set of gear for an off-spec".

What about the fact that bag space is limited in WoW? Another fact you so quickly overlook in a desperate attempt to be right. Few people have, let alone bring along, the gear to be multiple classes. CON can switch seamlessly, my MRD can switch seamlessly, completely different system and not even comparable.

What kind of loser thinks he can/needs to prove something about a MMO? I guess it's the kind with 10k posts. I'll save my proof gathering for debates about real topics like science, politics and history. Not waste my time reading through your life's work in analyzing MMO's in a pathetic attempt to have some kind of credibility in fantasy land.

Bottom line: Partying should have better SP/hour otherwise partying would be non-existent. Soloing doesn't need to be nerfed, it's fine as is and would benefit from the addition of exp chaining.
#125 Jan 23 2011 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
SugarDoodle wrote:
Woo first post!! but any in FFXI I was a SMN personally sure it's wasn't always fun being a main heal in party but I picked to play that role only because it was faster to party. I could always solo it I wanted to but partying was just faster which is why the option of being able to party is something good to have. I still soloed when playing SMN but being able to have that option to party is always welcome in imo at least


Question: If you could get equal XP solo or in a party, would you rather party as a healer, or would you rather solo with your pets?


Well me personally I'd still would do both I liked to be versatile with my jobs so being asked to be main heal in parties taught me how to use my mp efficiently to be main heal and still toss out some avatars to still have some fun. I still wouldn't mind being able to get good XP on my own but party experiences have their benefits as well
#126 Jan 23 2011 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
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447 posts
ArchBlegan wrote:


Bottom line: Partying should have better SP/hour otherwise partying would be non-existent. Soloing doesn't need to be nerfed, it's fine as is and would benefit from the addition of exp chaining.


While I could do away with all of your arguing, I believe in some of your points, not that they are factual nor do I have any evidence other than anecdotal to support it.

I think if you add a party sp system like FFXI in addition to what we have now, that it would be a great thing for this game. At the end of the day, I believe it would lessen attrition & gain subscribers and that's what they need right now. I would see quite a few players coming back who quit because of it & I don't think many of the solo people would quit since again, we're not talking about changing the way they can get sp today solo.

And if someone wants to say they would quit because of it, then please state why? I'm curious as to how making the game more fun for some, while not impacting your experience, lessens your gaming experience.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 5:39pm by KnocturnalOne

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 5:40pm by KnocturnalOne
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#127 Jan 23 2011 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
ArchBlegan wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
Yeah, they choose to not be a dedicated healer/tank, that doesn't mean they wouldn't mind doing it from time to time. Sounds like a good break from the normal grind to me. And WoW's system required specialization. A warrior in WoW can't just switch from tank to DD wearing the same gear without being a huge gimp, they were virtually stuck on one class because of the dungeon's NB4G. Why do you intentionally leave out this information? You sound like you have a serious agenda right now... are you a WoW employee or something?

EDIT: And no, I don't want to read more of your posts in other threads about your "math" (again LOL @ you for that crap)

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 5:17pm by ArchBlegan


No, it doesn't mean that they wouldn't mind. It ALSO doesn't mean that they are willing to. What part of "Just because some people might want to do X does not mean all people will want to do X" do you not understand?

No, a Warrior in WoW typically can't switch from tank to DD without changing gear. But what about the fact that you could always carry two sets of gear? I carried Fury gear and Protection gear on my Warrior so that I could DD or tank. Most Warriors did not do this.

As for not reading other posts... first you have no proof to counter anything I'm saying, now you're admitting that you're wilfully disregarding the proof I am providing you.

So if you're going to not only NOT provide any proof whatsoever, but ALSO ignore the data that is inconvenient for you, then how confident are you you in your own words? Yet again, you dance around my points.

You STILL haven't disproven anything. Your only rebuttal to all four of my points was "Some people might want a change of pace" and "Warriors need a second set of gear for an off-spec".

What about the fact that bag space is limited in WoW? Another fact you so quickly overlook in a desperate attempt to be right. Few people have, let alone bring along, the gear to be multiple classes. CON can switch seamlessly, my MRD can switch seamlessly, completely different system and not even comparable.

What kind of loser thinks he can/needs to prove something about a MMO? I guess it's the kind with 10k posts. I'll save my proof gathering for debates about real topics like science, politics and history. Not waste my time reading through your life's work in analyzing MMO's in a pathetic attempt to have some kind of credibility in fantasy land.

Bottom line: Partying should have better SP/hour otherwise partying would be non-existent. Soloing doesn't need to be nerfed, it's fine as is and would benefit from the addition of exp chaining.


Bag space isn't nearly as limited as you seem to be implying it is. Four Frostweave bags are 80 slots, and it takes less than one to hold a second set of gear. You're also ignoring the fact that with the LFG tool, you could hearth out, go to your bank, get any gear, and port right back to the dungeon entrance (or be summoned if the group has a lock).

You're ignoring the fact that gear for DDing might not necessarily be gear for healing or tanking. You're also neglecting that if someone's stats are allocated for DDing, they might have to dump and reallocate those stats, and doing so a second time AFTER the party is on a timer.

As for your second paragraph... you're trying to prove a point and part of your argument is "What kind of loser thinks he can/needs to prove something"? Really? I mean, how far do you have to backpedal that your counterpoint is to question why I'm trying to prove something? Aren't you ALSO trying to prove something?

As for your "bottom line", this is just a restatement of your personal opinion, and you still haven't disproven a **** thing I said. I provided proof as to why chaining is bad and you have ignored the proof simply because you don't like it. I have explained why partying should not have better SP/hour and you have not disproven my counterpoints.

All you're doing is ignoring all the proof that is staring you in the face and repeating yourself.

I only have one thing to say to you at this point.

Dunning-Kruger effect.

The unfortunate shame is that you probably will either not watch the video, or that you won't understand it.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 5:43pm by Mikhalia
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#128 Jan 23 2011 at 4:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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429 posts
ArchBlegan wrote:
What about the fact that bag space is limited in WoW? Another fact you so quickly overlook in a desperate attempt to be right. Few people have, let alone bring along, the gear to be multiple classes. CON can switch seamlessly, my MRD can switch seamlessly, completely different system and not even comparable.


As someone who is still actively playing WOW, and who carries two gear sets for two roles on him, I want to say that this point is ********* Bag space is NOT limited in WOW. There's only a few packrats that don't go sell grays to a vendor except once a week, or that don't use the bank.

People aren't tanks/healers/whatever the fack you want because they can't be, people aren't tanks/healers/whatever because they don't want to be. 9 out of 10 dungeons that I run, DPS players don't roll for offspec gear because they DO NOT WANT TO BE A HEALER/TANK. Get that through your thick skull.

Quote:
Bottom line: Partying should have better SP/hour otherwise partying would be non-existent. Soloing doesn't need to be nerfed, it's fine as is and would benefit from the addition of exp chaining.


If people would consistently rather solo than group when the two offer near equal benefits, then it's stupid to try to force them to do only one of the two. People who would rather only group are in an extreme minority, and pandering to them is not what FFXIV should strive for (and thankfully, it doesn't).
#129 Jan 23 2011 at 4:44 PM Rating: Good
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447 posts
One other anecdotal point to support my belief, I nearly have two entire LS' from FFXI who aren't playing FFXIV because the SP system doesn't support good party play.

I realize this is only but a fraction of viewpoints out there.
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#130 Jan 23 2011 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
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447 posts
Wolfums wrote:


If people would consistently rather solo than group when the two offer near equal benefits, then it's stupid to try to force them to do only one of the two. People who would rather only group are in an extreme minority, and pandering to them is not what FFXIV should strive for (and thankfully, it doesn't).


Thankfully, SE doesn't agree with you as it's evident your solo style isn't currently successful for SE & FFXIV.
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#131 Jan 23 2011 at 4:48 PM Rating: Decent
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11,576 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

So do you set aside massive segments of the world and fill them with elite mobs for groups to grind on? No. You can't do that kind of thing without alienating solo players because of the time and money it takes to develop the environments.


You don't need to "set aside" areas for party grinds - just have some mobs tuned for parties - in the same zones as mobs not tuned for parties. Crikes, this game has a lot of empty space still - and new zones WILL be added. Is anyone in Coerthas? Mor Dhona? No. Almost no one in those zones. While I realize part of that is just the incredibly small server populations we have - the other part is there is just no point in going to those zones... no behest, no leves... nothing but a couple of NMs...


Have you ever played an MMO where elite mobs are mixed in with non-elite mobs in any significant number? It has the very real potential to make solo play ****. Stop and think about mob density and how many of these "group" mobs you would need in any given area to keep a any significant number of groups happily occupied. So do they make all of these group mobs non-aggressive so they don't faceroll solo players, or do they make them with very small roaming areas? And you can't just fill up all the empty space in the game now because if, as you said, the game actually had healthy server populations (ie. 3k+ logged and active at any given time), those zones would be a lot more active, and even moreso still when Ishgard is added in. If the game actually had objective-based content, the world as it currently exists would be large enough for solo content for all rank ranges from 1-50. All that empty space is what SE gave themselves to work with for content additions most likely right the way through to the first expansion.

Quote:
XI had things work great for parties - yes, sometimes the camps were full - but people just moved on or made due.


And just imagine how small the XI world would have seemed if SE had tried to include mobs for solo players as well.

Quote:
Also soloers still would have behest and leves etc. so I don't see how changing some goats into mobs people can party on would hurt anything (or even making the goats worth partying on)... I don't agree with you that group content needs to be instanced.


I don't think you're looking at the big picture. We're not talking about making enough mobs for you and your group. We're talking about adding in enough group mobs for you and your group and every other group that wants to go grind in the open world and how much space that would take up and the impact it would have on solo accessibility. You can't restrict solo players to leves for the sake of open world group content. You'd **** off a lot of people.

Quote:
People who solo can have rats and coblyns, etc. small, non-epic mobs that they can safely grind away on.


It seems like your specifically avoiding the big picture in order to support your point of view. And, as I've said in the past, while I don't take issue with your preference towards partying, I do take issue with how readily you relegate solo players to second class citizens in order to accommodate your preferences. That might be okay with you, but you don't have to worry about building and maintaining a healthy subscription base that is going to recover your investment and generate a profit for you. All I can really say is don't get your hopes up, because either SE is going to do something differently from what you want, or FFXIV is going to continue to struggle.
#132 Jan 23 2011 at 4:51 PM Rating: Decent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
Wolfums wrote:


If people would consistently rather solo than group when the two offer near equal benefits, then it's stupid to try to force them to do only one of the two. People who would rather only group are in an extreme minority, and pandering to them is not what FFXIV should strive for (and thankfully, it doesn't).


Thankfully, SE doesn't agree with you as it's evident your solo style isn't currently successful for SE & FFXIV.


SE could make it successful as long as Yoshida doesn't have even half of his head as far up his *** as Tanaka did. I wouldn't take FFXIV's current plight as an indication that supporting solo play can't work, because I could point you in the direction of several other MMOs that would prove your theory quite wrong.
#133 Jan 23 2011 at 4:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wolfums wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
What about the fact that bag space is limited in WoW? Another fact you so quickly overlook in a desperate attempt to be right. Few people have, let alone bring along, the gear to be multiple classes. CON can switch seamlessly, my MRD can switch seamlessly, completely different system and not even comparable.


As someone who is still actively playing WOW, and who carries two gear sets for two roles on him, I want to say that this point is bullsh*t. Bag space is NOT limited in WOW. There's only a few packrats that don't go sell grays to a vendor except once a week, or that don't use the bank.

People aren't tanks/healers/whatever the fack you want because they can't be, people aren't tanks/healers/whatever because they don't want to be. 9 out of 10 dungeons that I run, DPS players don't roll for offspec gear because they DO NOT WANT TO BE A HEALER/TANK. Get that through your thick skull.


Exactly.

Wolfums wrote:
Quote:
Bottom line: Partying should have better SP/hour otherwise partying would be non-existent. Soloing doesn't need to be nerfed, it's fine as is and would benefit from the addition of exp chaining.


If people would consistently rather solo than group when the two offer near equal benefits, then it's stupid to try to force them to do only one of the two. People who would rather only group are in an extreme minority, and pandering to them is not what FFXIV should strive for (and thankfully, it doesn't).


I keep restating this, but I'm a firm believer that (in MY mind) grouping should be encouraged over soloing. However, I'm ALSO a firm believer that IDEALLY soloing and grouping should be equally encouraged.

People like me who don't mind a game where soloing is impossible and grouping is the only way are an extreme minority. I accept that.

All I personally ask is that FFXIV gives people incentives to party, because I -want- to party and if there are virtually no incentives to party, then I have no one to party -with-. Currently, I don't feel XIV offers enough incentive to make partying more appealing than soloing to most people.

Conversely, I don't feel it's fair for them to redesign XIV as a party heavy game because it was never intended to be one, and it's not fair to the people who bought a solo friendly game to suddenly make their game no longer solo friendly. It's one thing for me to go into a Subway and ask if they'll make me a sandwich, it's another to go into a Subway and get angry with them because most of their menu is subs.

Back in XIV's infancy, I was on these very boards saying that I hoped XIV would be party heavy. It isn't. That ship has sailed. By signing on to XIV, I agreed to sign on for a solo friendly game. I'd like it to be more party friendly, but it's unfair of me to expect that at the cost of solo players.
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#134 Jan 23 2011 at 4:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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This game isn't FFXI, and the mobs don't seem to be tuned to be fought large group VS 1 mob. I get that people liked it that way, but they would have to retune the mobs to be intended to killed that way. I see the same thing coming up all the time on these boards, People trying to cram features they liked form old games into the FFXIV mold.

Instead of learning how group combat could work in this game they just want to go back to the old FFXI way.
Personally I see a group of 6-8 fighting 2-3 mobs at the same time as being the intent of group combat in this game. I think thats why the basic heals are AoE, and I think this is the only system that allows 1-3 person groups to do as well as 6-8, or 13-15 member groups.

But anyways, a couple things I think would have to happen in order to make the group vs mob combat work.

Group mobs would have to be visibly classified, that way solo people won't be mistaking them for soloable stuff. They'd have to be either in their own areas, or non-aggro as to not hamper the solo experience. I think the best idea would be to have them instanced though, as Aurelius said.

Group mobs would need to have their SP reworked so it properly divides among the group, and rewards them all accordingly.

Lastly, because of the way they are tuned, groups aren't going to be able to vary in size. Mobs SP, HP, damage output will all have to be tuned to specific group sizes.
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#135 Jan 23 2011 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
Wolfums wrote:


If people would consistently rather solo than group when the two offer near equal benefits, then it's stupid to try to force them to do only one of the two. People who would rather only group are in an extreme minority, and pandering to them is not what FFXIV should strive for (and thankfully, it doesn't).


Thankfully, SE doesn't agree with you as it's evident your solo style isn't currently successful for SE & FFXIV.


SE could make it successful as long as Yoshida doesn't have even half of his head as far up his *** as Tanaka did. I wouldn't take FFXIV's current plight as an indication that supporting solo play can't work, because I could point you in the direction of several other MMOs that would prove your theory quite wrong.


Please do elaborate because I am not following your point.
____________________________
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FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#136 Jan 23 2011 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
ArchBlegan wrote:
Yeah, they choose to not be a dedicated healer/tank, that doesn't mean they wouldn't mind doing it from time to time. Sounds like a good break from the normal grind to me. And WoW's system required specialization. A warrior in WoW can't just switch from tank to DD wearing the same gear without being a huge gimp, they were virtually stuck on one class because of the dungeon's NB4G. Why do you intentionally leave out this information? You sound like you have a serious agenda right now... are you a WoW employee or something?

EDIT: And no, I don't want to read more of your posts in other threads about your "math" (again LOL @ you for that crap)

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 5:17pm by ArchBlegan


No, it doesn't mean that they wouldn't mind. It ALSO doesn't mean that they are willing to. What part of "Just because some people might want to do X does not mean all people will want to do X" do you not understand?

No, a Warrior in WoW typically can't switch from tank to DD without changing gear. But what about the fact that you could always carry two sets of gear? I carried Fury gear and Protection gear on my Warrior so that I could DD or tank. Most Warriors did not do this.

As for not reading other posts... first you have no proof to counter anything I'm saying, now you're admitting that you're wilfully disregarding the proof I am providing you.

So if you're going to not only NOT provide any proof whatsoever, but ALSO ignore the data that is inconvenient for you, then how confident are you you in your own words? Yet again, you dance around my points.

You STILL haven't disproven anything. Your only rebuttal to all four of my points was "Some people might want a change of pace" and "Warriors need a second set of gear for an off-spec".

What about the fact that bag space is limited in WoW? Another fact you so quickly overlook in a desperate attempt to be right. Few people have, let alone bring along, the gear to be multiple classes. CON can switch seamlessly, my MRD can switch seamlessly, completely different system and not even comparable.

What kind of loser thinks he can/needs to prove something about a MMO? I guess it's the kind with 10k posts. I'll save my proof gathering for debates about real topics like science, politics and history. Not waste my time reading through your life's work in analyzing MMO's in a pathetic attempt to have some kind of credibility in fantasy land.

Bottom line: Partying should have better SP/hour otherwise partying would be non-existent. Soloing doesn't need to be nerfed, it's fine as is and would benefit from the addition of exp chaining.


Bag space isn't nearly as limited as you seem to be implying it is. Four Frostweave bags are 80 slots, and it takes less than one to hold a second set of gear. You're also ignoring the fact that with the LFG tool, you could hearth out, go to your bank, get any gear, and port right back to the dungeon entrance (or be summoned if the group has a lock).

You're ignoring the fact that gear for DDing might not necessarily be gear for healing or tanking. You're also neglecting that if someone's stats are allocated for DDing, they might have to dump and reallocate those stats, and doing so a second time AFTER the party is on a timer.

As for your second paragraph... you're trying to prove a point and part of your argument is "What kind of loser thinks he can/needs to prove something"? Really? I mean, how far do you have to backpedal that your counterpoint is to question why I'm trying to prove something? Aren't you ALSO trying to prove something?

As for your "bottom line", this is just a restatement of your personal opinion, and you still haven't disproven a **** thing I said. I provided proof as to why chaining is bad and you have ignored the proof simply because you don't like it. I have explained why partying should not have better SP/hour and you have not disproven my counterpoints.

All you're doing is ignoring all the proof that is staring you in the face and repeating yourself.

I only have one thing to say to you at this point.

Dunning-Kruger effect.

The unfortunate shame is that you probably will either not watch the video, or that you won't understand it.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 5:43pm by Mikhalia

If soloing is equivalent to partying, then no one is going to form parties. It's that easy to prove, but you obviously are an irrational person or perhaps you're simply another one of those sophists who intentionally "proves" things that are blatantly false. Either way, you have a whole lot of douche in you if you want to prevent a large portion of the MMO community's idea of fun because you want soloing to be dominate. Of course you're going to say you prefer partying, but nothing you have said is rational so there's no reason to waste any more of my time with the likes of you.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 5:56pm by ArchBlegan
#137 Jan 23 2011 at 4:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Woot, Chicago just scored! Maybe they make it a game?

Oh wait, we're talking about my favorite topic, party play in FFXIV. So yeah, judging by everything I've read on Alla on arguments of what system won't work and why, we're all doomed since nobody is smart enough to make a system that will be successful.

Just a little humor on a Sunday evening!

p.s Go Green Bay!!
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#138 Jan 23 2011 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
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ArchBlegan wrote:

If soloing is equivalent to partying, then no one is going to form parties. It's that easy to prove, but you obviously are an irrational person or perhaps you're simply another one of those sophists who intentionally "proves" things that are blatantly false. Either, you have a whole lot of douche in you if you want to prevent a large portion of the MMO community's idea of fun because you want soloing to be dominate. Of course you're going to say you prefer partying, but nothing you have said is rational so there's no reason to waste any more of my time with the likes of you.


1) Learn to use the quote feature. Trim out the parts of the discussion that you've already quoted in previous posts. You don't need 3 pages worth of quote to remind people what you're referencing.

2) There's benefit to offering incentive to groups above and beyond what they could get from soloing, but they don't have to be enormous benefits. People who call for massive discrepancies between solo rewards and group rewards aren't thinking clearly.
#139 Jan 23 2011 at 5:06 PM Rating: Good
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KnocturnalOne wrote:

Please do elaborate because I am not following your point.


The reason why FFXIV isn't working is because there's not enough objective based content for solo players or groups, not because they've made it so you can solo to the level cap.
#140 Jan 23 2011 at 5:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
ArchBlegan wrote:
If soloing is equivalent to partying, then no one is going to form parties. It's that easy to prove, but you obviously are an irrational person or perhaps you're simply another one of those sophists who intentionally "proves" things that are blatantly false. Either way, you have a whole lot of douche in you if you want to prevent a large portion of the MMO community's idea of fun because you want soloing to be dominate. Of course you're going to say you prefer partying, but nothing you have said is rational so there's no reason to waste any more of my time with the likes of you.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 5:56pm by ArchBlegan


If soloing is equivalent to parties, then fewer people will form parties. If you had read my posts, you would notice that I ALREADY SAID THAT. Is your argument really so weak that you have to rely on repeating things I said back to me just so that you can have a valid point?

I am not irrational; I have provided plenty of points to you and plenty of proof to you and you have willfilly ignored all of it and have admitted as such. How is is that you have spent this entire thread ignoring everything I say, unable to disprove anything, and you think -I'm- irrational? What irrational statements have I made, against the mountain of yours?

You're STILL ignoring the fact that I've stated SEVERAL TIMES that I personally PREFER partying. Have you really ignored so much of my posts that you don't realize that you're accusing me of not wanting myself to have fun? And you call -me- irrational?

The proof is there that players LIKE ME AND YOU (yes, BOTH of us) who prefer partying over soloing are a minority. Did you read that? You and I are both in a minority. More players prefer soloing. The type of party-based play style that YOU AND I BOTH enjoy is one that is in the minority. It may very well be a large portion of people, but we are still a minority.

You're also still willfully ignoring that XIV was intended as a solo game. I have come to terms with this and accepted that. Why can't you?

I've made point after point that you can't disprove. I've provided proof after proof that you have ADMITTED you are ignoring. Your argument has devolved to "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU". You have even gone so far as to include "Why are you trying to prove something?", which is quite possibly the dumbest rebuttal I've ever heard by anyone, and you think that -I'm- irrational?

I'm going to say this one more time:

Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
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#141 Jan 23 2011 at 5:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:

Please do elaborate because I am not following your point.


The reason why FFXIV isn't working is because there's not enough objective based content for solo players or groups, not because they've made it so you can solo to the level cap.


I concur, but for me, one of the reasons is the party play style. In it's simplest form, that's all I am saying, and many others that I know who quit or won't play because of it.

Edit - It just amazes me that we need all these complex arguments to get to this point.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 6:10pm by KnocturnalOne
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#142 Jan 23 2011 at 5:11 PM Rating: Good
Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:

Please do elaborate because I am not following your point.


The reason why FFXIV isn't working is because there's not enough objective based content for solo players or groups, not because they've made it so you can solo to the level cap.
Spot on, there. They really need to hammer out more/better content first. They can tweak the actual numbers later.
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#143 Jan 23 2011 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:

Please do elaborate because I am not following your point.


The reason why FFXIV isn't working is because there's not enough objective based content for solo players or groups, not because they've made it so you can solo to the level cap.


I concur, but for me, one of the reasons is the party play style. In it's simplest form, that's all I am saying, and many others that I know who quit or won't play because of it.


I agree that party play is nowhere near up to par, I just throw in that solo play isn't up to par, either. There's nothing about the game right now that most people are going to find compelling enough to stick around for any length of time until Yoshida starts producing substantial results.
#144 Jan 23 2011 at 5:13 PM Rating: Good
KnocturnalOne wrote:


Edit - It just amazes me that we need all these complex arguments to get to this point.

Sometimes the longer road is the better road.
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#145 Jan 23 2011 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
Thankfully, SE doesn't agree with you as it's evident your solo style isn't currently successful for SE & FFXIV.


Thankfully, SE said that they've been developing FFXIV from day one to appeal to both solo play styles and group play styles. And thankfully, SE agrees with me when I say that there should be both group and solo options. And thankfully, that's exactly what they said they'll be doing in Yoshi P's letter.
#146 Jan 23 2011 at 5:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:

Please do elaborate because I am not following your point.


The reason why FFXIV isn't working is because there's not enough objective based content for solo players or groups, not because they've made it so you can solo to the level cap.


I concur, but for me, one of the reasons is the party play style. In it's simplest form, that's all I am saying, and many others that I know who quit or won't play because of it.


I agree that party play is nowhere near up to par, I just throw in that solo play isn't up to par, either. There's nothing about the game right now that most people are going to find compelling enough to stick around for any length of time until Yoshida starts producing substantial results.


Indeed. If you don't enjoy something solo, you usually aren't going to enjoy it in a group either. Once the game starts getting more content, solo play -and- party play should pick up nicely.

I'm looking forward to that time. Partying with my LS mates was the only enjoyment I have gotten out of XIV so far.
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#147 Jan 23 2011 at 5:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wolfums wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
Thankfully, SE doesn't agree with you as it's evident your solo style isn't currently successful for SE & FFXIV.


Thankfully, SE said that they've been developing FFXIV from day one to appeal to both solo play styles and group play styles. And thankfully, SE agrees with me when I say that there should be both group and solo options. And thankfully, that's exactly what they said they'll be doing in Yoshi P's letter.


Here's hoping. :)
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#148 Jan 23 2011 at 5:25 PM Rating: Default
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Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:

Please do elaborate because I am not following your point.


The reason why FFXIV isn't working is because there's not enough objective based content for solo players or groups, not because they've made it so you can solo to the level cap.
Spot on, there. They really need to hammer out more/better content first. They can tweak the actual numbers later.



First of all, you got to imagine or even consider what is contents.

1. WoW quests are contents ? You basically just kill XX, collect XXX , bring XXX to whatever. Those are NOT content where i would enjoy.

2. Consider the effort need to make these quests. Like DC universe, the quests system much like wow, is pratically 90% of the game and guess what, most people won't repeat it.

3. Quests doesn't work IN FFXIV. Why? the quests have to either be repeatable or you can't use another class to do it again. You might have 50 quests to get your conj to 50 but when you change class does it mean the quests get reset? Not to mention quests are level specific,
#149 Jan 23 2011 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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Wolfums wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
Thankfully, SE doesn't agree with you as it's evident your solo style isn't currently successful for SE & FFXIV.


Thankfully, SE said that they've been developing FFXIV from day one to appeal to both solo play styles and group play styles. And thankfully, SE agrees with me when I say that there should be both group and solo options. And thankfully, that's exactly what they said they'll be doing in Yoshi P's letter.


SE wrote:
Revisions to party-based skill point acquisition in parties. Improvements to skill point acquisition for parties.


Can we all agree that this means more SP in parties? If so, my belief is that they will accomplish this by having SP distributed in a manner similar to FFXI, since they mention the bulk of dissatisfaction comes from FFXI users who make up the majority of the poll. I think this is what the OP was originally trying to clarify /assume.

This is what I agree with and am in favor of. That said, I welcome any additional means to level as variety is always welcome.
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PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#150 Jan 23 2011 at 5:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
SE wrote:
Revisions to party-based skill point acquisition in parties. Improvements to skill point acquisition for parties.


Can we all agree that this means more SP in parties? If so, my belief is that they will accomplish this by having SP distributed in a manner similar to FFXI, since they mention the bulk of dissatisfaction comes from FFXI users who make up the majority of the poll. I think this is what the OP was originally trying to clarify /assume.

This is what I agree with and am in favor of. That said, I welcome any additional means to level as variety is always welcome.


I'm hoping that the additions are enough to make people WANT to party without being so severe that they make people feel like partying is the ONLY option.

My main concern in XIV is that I can get a pickup group of people who WANT to party, not to be limited to only people from my LS who feel like they're only partying just because they feel obligated to party with an LS mate.

I've had plenty of fun parties in XI that weren't terribly efficient. They were still fun. But I'd ideally like XIV to give me the ability to have a pickup group that can be fun AND efficient.
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#151 Jan 23 2011 at 5:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


I'm hoping that the additions are enough to make people WANT to party without being so severe that they make people feel like partying is the ONLY option.

My main concern in XIV is that I can get a pickup group of people who WANT to party, not to be limited to only people from my LS who feel like they're only partying just because they feel obligated to party with an LS mate.

I've had plenty of fun parties in XI that weren't terribly efficient. They were still fun. But I'd ideally like XIV to give me the ability to have a pickup group that can be fun AND efficient.


I completely agree with you!
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PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


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