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Bring back the old leveling style?Follow

#152 Jan 23 2011 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
wrongfeifong wrote:
Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:

Please do elaborate because I am not following your point.


The reason why FFXIV isn't working is because there's not enough objective based content for solo players or groups, not because they've made it so you can solo to the level cap.
Spot on, there. They really need to hammer out more/better content first. They can tweak the actual numbers later.



First of all, you got to imagine or even consider what is contents.

1. WoW quests are contents ? You basically just kill XX, collect XXX , bring XXX to whatever. Those are NOT content where i would enjoy.

2. Consider the effort need to make these quests. Like DC universe, the quests system much like wow, is pratically 90% of the game and guess what, most people won't repeat it.

3. Quests doesn't work IN FFXIV. Why? the quests have to either be repeatable or you can't use another class to do it again. You might have 50 quests to get your conj to 50 but when you change class does it mean the quests get reset? Not to mention quests are level specific,
Sorry, I'm used to playing a game where storyline quests and missions had nothing to do with level progression.
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#153 Jan 23 2011 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
Can we all agree that this means more SP in parties? If so, my belief is that they will accomplish this by having SP distributed in a manner similar to FFXI, since they mention the bulk of dissatisfaction comes from FFXI users who make up the majority of the poll. I think this is what the OP was originally trying to clarify /assume.

This is what I agree with and am in favor of. That said, I welcome any additional means to level as variety is always welcome.


I don't think anyone would disagree that SE needs to provide opportunities for groups to gain reasonable SP outside of leves. Right now they can, but the process isn't really entertaining. The numbers say you can earn faster SP in a party than you can as a solo player, but the way in which you do that is pretty dull. And if you up the interest factor by fighting higher ranked mobs, you earn less SP overall because the gains don't scale appropriately. And if you target mobs that offer decent SP/kill, you start running into issues with the combat table that just make the fights take that much longer. And if you compensate for that by adding more people, you start splitting the base SP gains even more. You can't win for trying.
#154 Jan 23 2011 at 5:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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A thought that just occurred to me... literally, just now, like just this second...

Remember when I said that I like a game where partying is significantly better than soloing to the point that soloing is not even worth it, and partying is the only reasonable method of progression? Setting aside the fact that this is not a commonly held opinion, I just realized a huge flaw in my theory.

Consider the following:

How many parties have you had that were ruined by that one *******/elitist/scrub/whatever, but you stuck it out because you HAD to? If soloing is an option, you can bail on a ****** parties and go solo instead. If soloing is not an option, you're stuck with ****** xp because "Well...it's better than nothing."

Even if you think that soloing sucks, I think we can all agree that ****** parties suck WAY worse. Sometimes it's nice to have the option to say ********** this" and go solo instead.
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#155 Jan 23 2011 at 5:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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wrongfeifong wrote:
First of all, you got to imagine or even consider what is contents.

1. WoW quests are contents ? You basically just kill XX, collect XXX , bring XXX to whatever. Those are NOT content where i would enjoy.


If you take a single quest out of context, it's going to be pretty underwhelming, I agree. But if you look at a whole quest chain, and compare that to one of FFXI's quests, they'll be fairly similar in story, variety, and rewards.

Quote:
2. Consider the effort need to make these quests. Like DC universe, the quests system much like wow, is pratically 90% of the game and guess what, most people won't repeat it.


A single WOW quest isn't hard to make at all. But making a chain of them to expand a piece of lore in a meaningful way is a little more difficult.

Quote:
3. Quests doesn't work IN FFXIV. Why? the quests have to either be repeatable or you can't use another class to do it again. You might have 50 quests to get your conj to 50 but when you change class does it mean the quests get reset? Not to mention quests are level specific,


Agreed and I kinda hope they don't switch to a quest-based leveling system. Leves, which are comparable to WOW daily quests or Aion coin quests or EQ kill tasks or whatever, are great solo options for people leveling alt classes. But they should introduce more than just the "kill X of Y monster type" style of leves.
#156 Jan 23 2011 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
People don't pick the quest option because it's more "fun", don't fool yourself. They pick it because it's by far the most efficient exp/hr option. Granted I didn't play WoW, but I did play LoTRO for a few years. In LoTRO you leveled up via quests just like how I'm told you level up in WoW. And yes you could level up by grinding mobs, but it would take you at least ten times longer. It was utterly impractical to level up by grinding not because it wasn't "fun", but because that's just how the game was designed.
You forget about the part that while you're running errands for everyone in the world, you're getting interesting tidbits on life in that particular world, current events of the zone you're in, and even some fun tie-ins to known lore.

Yes, it's a leveling model that is objective-based, focused on killing a certain number of mobs and collecting a certain number of items, but it was also a great vessel through which your character was given a place in the world.

XI's main flaw with that was that your character was a nobody with nothing better to do. PCs were ridiculously disconnected from the game world, believe it or not.

PS: And no, I don't think grinding mobs on end for hours is a good model.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 7:06pm by Ruisu
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#157 Jan 23 2011 at 6:08 PM Rating: Good
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Ruisu wrote:
XI's main flaw with that was that your character was a nobody with nothing better to do. PCs were ridiculously disconnected from the game world, believe it or not.


I felt the opposite; to me, the missions in XI made it feel like your character was an active part of the story and that you mattered, whereas in WoW, it felt more to me like my character was just another ******* for 95% of the quests.

I'm willing to agree to disagree on this though, because this is an issue of subjectivity and I accept that different people will have different interpretations.
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#158 Jan 23 2011 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
A thought that just occurred to me... literally, just now, like just this second...

Remember when I said that I like a game where partying is significantly better than soloing to the point that soloing is not even worth it, and partying is the only reasonable method of progression? Setting aside the fact that this is not a commonly held opinion, I just realized a huge flaw in my theory.

Consider the following:

How many parties have you had that were ruined by that one @#%^/elitist/scrub/whatever, but you stuck it out because you HAD to? If soloing is an option, you can bail on a sh*tty parties and go solo instead. If soloing is not an option, you're stuck with sh*tty xp because "Well...it's better than nothing."

Even if you think that soloing sucks, I think we can all agree that sh*tty parties suck WAY worse. Sometimes it's nice to have the option to say "@#%^ this" and go solo instead.


I think that the next time we have an argument about something, I'll just walk away for a couple of months and you'll figure it out on your own ;D

Seriously though, that's been one of my points all along whenever someone comes along with the whole, "why play an MMO if you don't want to party?" When I left FFXI, I was so sick and tired of miserable parties that the whole concept of being able to just log in and go with or without a party was...awesome. And if I joined a group that was just stinking up the place with badism, I could bounce. No problem. I've got all these other things I can be doing with or without this group and if I'm not enjoying what's going on in this group, I'm no worse off for leaving. As you pointed out, if the game is done well with an appropriate balance of solo and group play, you never feel yourself having to choose between frustrating progression (ie. in a bad group) or no progression.
#159 Jan 23 2011 at 6:25 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
A thought that just occurred to me... literally, just now, like just this second...

Remember when I said that I like a game where partying is significantly better than soloing to the point that soloing is not even worth it, and partying is the only reasonable method of progression? Setting aside the fact that this is not a commonly held opinion, I just realized a huge flaw in my theory.

Consider the following:

How many parties have you had that were ruined by that one @#%^/elitist/scrub/whatever, but you stuck it out because you HAD to? If soloing is an option, you can bail on a sh*tty parties and go solo instead. If soloing is not an option, you're stuck with sh*tty xp because "Well...it's better than nothing."

Even if you think that soloing sucks, I think we can all agree that sh*tty parties suck WAY worse. Sometimes it's nice to have the option to say "@#%^ this" and go solo instead.


I think that the next time we have an argument about something, I'll just walk away for a couple of months and you'll figure it out on your own ;D


I'll hold you to that. Smiley: lol

Aurelius wrote:
Seriously though, that's been one of my points all along whenever someone comes along with the whole, "why play an MMO if you don't want to party?" When I left FFXI, I was so sick and tired of miserable parties that the whole concept of being able to just log in and go with or without a party was...awesome. And if I joined a group that was just stinking up the place with badism, I could bounce. No problem. I've got all these other things I can be doing with or without this group and if I'm not enjoying what's going on in this group, I'm no worse off for leaving. As you pointed out, if the game is done well with an appropriate balance of solo and group play, you never feel yourself having to choose between frustrating progression (ie. in a bad group) or no progression.


I'm not trying to start up -that- argument again, but while I agree on this particular issue, my issue with solo play being an option has alwasy been the following:

There are four types of people: People who will solo no matter what, people who will party no matter what, people who will do whatever gives the best xp for the least amount of work, and people who will solo sometimes and party sometimes.

If soloing gives the most xp for the least amount of work, then the third group will solo, which leaves people like me who want to party with less possible people to party with.

Ideally I'd have a game where people want to party with me and we could go party and get good xp and everyone is happy. And to a point you've made in that other thread, if someone is going to solo ANYWAY, then them soloing doesn't affect me in any way. But if someone is only soloing because soloing is more effective than partying, then that DOES affect me because I can't party with them.

So in conclusion, I'm okay if other people want to solo from time to time, although I still don't like the notion of soloing the entire game to cap and never partying at all, anywhere, with anyone. But as I've said, I accept that XIV might be that type of game, so I'll try not to ***** about it too much. :)

In a perfect game (for me) though... if I want to party, I should be able to get one together in 15-20 minutes or less and go kill sh*t in a group for a couple hours. I think that'd be cool.

EDIT: Corrected an inaccurate statement.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2011 7:27pm by Mikhalia
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#160 Jan 23 2011 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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#161 Jan 23 2011 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


I'm hoping that the additions are enough to make people WANT to party without being so severe that they make people feel like partying is the ONLY option.

My main concern in XIV is that I can get a pickup group of people who WANT to party, not to be limited to only people from my LS who feel like they're only partying just because they feel obligated to party with an LS mate.

I've had plenty of fun parties in XI that weren't terribly efficient. They were still fun. But I'd ideally like XIV to give me the ability to have a pickup group that can be fun AND efficient.


I don't understand how adding party play that's more effective than solo play would be so horrible? Solo play as it is right now seems to be perfectly fine, you can grind, you can do leves, you can do behest and get respectable SP all the way up to 50.

XI heavily favored party play over solo play, yet Campaign was always packed, tons of people leveled up using FoV even if it was far from optimal, etc. **** some people did that exclusively. The difference between party/solo SP gain in XIV would likely be much smaller than it was in XI if things stay this way, so I'm sure both options would be popular.

If soloing is superior to grouping, no one will group.
If soloing is equal to grouping, very few people will group.
If grouping is superior to soloing, I believe a balance will be struck.

And with the ease of teleportation and strong solo content, you wouldn't be stuck looking for party for hours with nothing to do with your time, removing the biggest drawback from the partying system in my opinion, which was the wait.

I don't remember anyone thinking partying was the ONLY option once campaign and FoV were introduced. And XIV already has stronger solo content than XI has even now. I don't see that being an issue.
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#162 Jan 23 2011 at 7:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Even if you think that soloing sucks, I think we can all agree that sh*tty parties suck WAY worse. Sometimes it's nice to have the option to say "@#%^ this" and go solo instead.


I pulled the plug on something like 80% of my parties while I was a WHM and RDM. I still consistently received party invites though.

In hindsight, I was a ****** person for doing that and I realize I screwed over 5 other people every time. But at the time, the only thing running through my head was "oh my god, 2k exp/hour. I'd rather get no exp than ****** exp."

It would have indeed been nice if ALL of us could go off and solo, even if soloing only gave 2k exp/hour. At least we would have kept all monster drops, or didn't have to put up with ******** like me.
#163 Jan 23 2011 at 7:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bruknarr wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


I'm hoping that the additions are enough to make people WANT to party without being so severe that they make people feel like partying is the ONLY option.

My main concern in XIV is that I can get a pickup group of people who WANT to party, not to be limited to only people from my LS who feel like they're only partying just because they feel obligated to party with an LS mate.

I've had plenty of fun parties in XI that weren't terribly efficient. They were still fun. But I'd ideally like XIV to give me the ability to have a pickup group that can be fun AND efficient.


I don't understand how adding party play that's more effective than solo play would be so horrible? Solo play as it is right now seems to be perfectly fine, you can grind, you can do leves, you can do behest and get respectable SP all the way up to 50.

XI heavily favored party play over solo play, yet Campaign was always packed, tons of people leveled up using FoV even if it was far from optimal, etc. **** some people did that exclusively. The difference between party/solo SP gain in XIV would likely be much smaller than it was in XI if things stay this way, so I'm sure both options would be popular.

If soloing is superior to grouping, no one will group.
If soloing is equal to grouping, very few people will group.
If grouping is superior to soloing, I believe a balance will be struck.

And with the ease of teleportation and strong solo content, you wouldn't be stuck looking for party for hours with nothing to do with your time, removing the biggest drawback from the partying system in my opinion, which was the wait.

I don't remember anyone thinking partying was the ONLY option once campaign and FoV were introduced. And XIV already has stronger solo content than XI has even now. I don't see that being an issue.


When did you hit 50 in FFXI? If you didn't until after ToAU/WotG were released, then I can understand where you're trying to come from. If you were 50 (or 75) back in the RotZ/CoP days, before the additions of FoV, ampaign, the increase in solo XP, you might understand a little better.

Used to be that soloing was terribly inefficient, and that only a few jobs were even capable of soloing effectively. Back then, when 4-5k/hr was considered -good- XP and 6-7k was considered practically unheard of, soloing was regarded as something you really didn't do post level 10 or so.

Many changes were made to XI that made soloing a lot easier and a lot more effective, but it never used to be that way. And many people who remember those days are fearful of returning to them.
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#164 Jan 23 2011 at 7:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wolfums wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Even if you think that soloing sucks, I think we can all agree that sh*tty parties suck WAY worse. Sometimes it's nice to have the option to say "@#%^ this" and go solo instead.


I pulled the plug on something like 80% of my parties while I was a WHM and RDM. I still consistently received party invites though.

In hindsight, I was a sh*tty person for doing that and I realize I screwed over 5 other people every time. But at the time, the only thing running through my head was "oh my god, 2k exp/hour. I'd rather get no exp than sh*tty exp."

It would have indeed been nice if ALL of us could go off and solo, even if soloing only gave 2k exp/hour. At least we would have kept all monster drops, or didn't have to put up with @#%^s like me.


For a healer, support, or tank, this is an easy task. After being lfp for 4 hours before finally getting an invite on a DD class, and then only getting 2k/hr... sometimes you decide that 2k really -is- better than 0.

And I admit I've been guilty of the same crime myself.
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#165 Jan 23 2011 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


When did you hit 50 in FFXI? If you didn't until after ToAU/WotG were released, then I can understand where you're trying to come from. If you were 50 (or 75) back in the RotZ/CoP days, before the additions of FoV, ampaign, the increase in solo XP, you might understand a little better.

Used to be that soloing was terribly inefficient, and that only a few jobs were even capable of soloing effectively. Back then, when 4-5k/hr was considered -good- XP and 6-7k was considered practically unheard of, soloing was regarded as something you really didn't do post level 10 or so.

Many changes were made to XI that made soloing a lot easier and a lot more effective, but it never used to be that way. And many people who remember those days are fearful of returning to them.


I played from the NA PC release and on, so I remember the early days of the game quite well. My point is that XIV should be some kind of spiritual successor to XI. Learn from its mistakes, and I'll agree that the first few years, the solo play vs group play gap was completely unbalanced. Even now it's not optimal.

I think the solo aspects of the game as they are right now should remove that fear some people seem to have about returning to something as unbalanced as the early XI days. Solo play WILL be viable as they promised from the beginning. They just need to bring party play back up to its original standard, AND make it superior to solo play in some way. Else people will stick to soloing, like most MMOs out there have proven.
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#166 Jan 23 2011 at 7:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Bruknarr wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


When did you hit 50 in FFXI? If you didn't until after ToAU/WotG were released, then I can understand where you're trying to come from. If you were 50 (or 75) back in the RotZ/CoP days, before the additions of FoV, ampaign, the increase in solo XP, you might understand a little better.

Used to be that soloing was terribly inefficient, and that only a few jobs were even capable of soloing effectively. Back then, when 4-5k/hr was considered -good- XP and 6-7k was considered practically unheard of, soloing was regarded as something you really didn't do post level 10 or so.

Many changes were made to XI that made soloing a lot easier and a lot more effective, but it never used to be that way. And many people who remember those days are fearful of returning to them.


I played from the NA PC release and on, so I remember the early days of the game quite well. My point is that XIV should be some kind of spiritual successor to XI. Learn from its mistakes, and I'll agree that the first few years, the solo play vs group play gap was completely unbalanced. Even now it's not optimal.

I think the solo aspects of the game as they are right now should remove that fear some people seem to have about returning to something as unbalanced as the early XI days. Solo play WILL be viable as they promised from the beginning. They just need to bring party play back up to its original standard, AND make it superior to solo play in some way. Else people will stick to soloing, like most MMOs out there have proven.


As someone who prefers partying, I'm not opposed to the idea, but most of the people who are considerably in favor of solo play over party play will cry foul if partying is significantly better. Then you have to deal with the old "I have a life!" argument, and it's a whole can of worms.

So would I like party play to be better than solo? Yeah. But since this game was targeted to be solo friendly, I don't anticipate it happening any more than I anticipate world PvP.
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#167 Jan 23 2011 at 7:38 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


As someone who prefers partying, I'm not opposed to the idea, but most of the people who are considerably in favor of solo play over party play will cry foul if partying is significantly better. Then you have to deal with the old "I have a life!" argument, and it's a whole can of worms.

So would I like party play to be better than solo? Yeah. But since this game was targeted to be solo friendly, I don't anticipate it happening any more than I anticipate world PvP.


I'm not sure the outrage would be that bad as long as the solo content is solid. Sure some people will complain, but the game said it would be solo friendly (and it is), not solo only (it pretty much is right now). You can grind to 50. Most/all quests seem to be geared toward solo players as well (not something I personally like, I loved group story missions, but I can live with it). As of right now, outside the "end game" content, I don't think there's anything solo players can't accomplish. This is where the game is fundamentally different from XI. Making everyone happy is impossible, but alienating their biggest user base, ex/current XI players (why play XI if you hate party play? One thing I'll never understand.) isn't in their best interest right now when you look at the result of the polls.

So in the end, I think they've already found a way to make casual/solo players happy with the basic systems currently in place, even if they still need to be worked on and enchanced, of course. Now they need to win back the crowd that made their previous game a fairly successful, long lasting MMO.
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#168 Jan 23 2011 at 7:48 PM Rating: Good
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Bruknarr wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


As someone who prefers partying, I'm not opposed to the idea, but most of the people who are considerably in favor of solo play over party play will cry foul if partying is significantly better. Then you have to deal with the old "I have a life!" argument, and it's a whole can of worms.

So would I like party play to be better than solo? Yeah. But since this game was targeted to be solo friendly, I don't anticipate it happening any more than I anticipate world PvP.


I'm not sure the outrage would be that bad as long as the solo content is solid. Sure some people will complain, but the game said it would be solo friendly (and it is), not solo only (it pretty much is right now). You can grind to 50. Most/all quests seem to be geared toward solo players as well (not something I personally like, I loved group story missions, but I can live with it). As of right now, outside the "end game" content, I don't think there's anything solo players can't accomplish. This is where the game is fundamentally different from XI. Making everyone happy is impossible, but alienating their biggest user base, ex/current XI players (why play XI if you hate party play? One thing I'll never understand.) isn't in their best interest right now when you look at the result of the polls.

So in the end, I think they've already found a way to make casual/solo players happy with the basic systems currently in place, even if they still need to be worked on and enchanced, of course. Now they need to win back the crowd that made their previous game a fairly successful, long lasting MMO.


Okay. I'd agree with that.
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#169 Jan 23 2011 at 8:01 PM Rating: Good
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PS guys, I think regardless of what they do with leveling, the game will still feel patently Final Fantasy, which is generally what most of us liked about FFXI.
#170 Jan 23 2011 at 8:31 PM Rating: Default
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It really seems as if so many people are asking for a game they can beat in a few days, like almost everything else put out these days...

I vote yes to the grind. I don't care whether it is party or solo, just don't make it any easier than it already is...
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#171 Jan 23 2011 at 8:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bruknarr wrote:
why play XI if you hate party play? One thing I'll never understand.


It wasn't really a question of hating party play; party play was actually quite good if you ended up in a decent group. It rarely happened though unless you were pestering people with their flag down to come tank/heal for you. If you were the kind of person that didn't want to bother people in such a fashion (like I was, and still very much am), you were ****** unless you were a tank/healer, or you latched on for dear life to a born extravert your level and never let go.
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#172 Jan 23 2011 at 8:52 PM Rating: Good
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SirEdmundBurke wrote:
It really seems as if so many people are asking for a game they can beat in a few days, like almost everything else put out these days...

I vote yes to the grind. I don't care whether it is party or solo, just don't make it any easier than it already is...


Grind =/= difficulty.
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#173 Jan 23 2011 at 8:55 PM Rating: Good
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SirEdmundBurke wrote:
It really seems as if so many people are asking for a game they can beat in a few days, like almost everything else put out these days...

I vote yes to the grind. I don't care whether it is party or solo, just don't make it any easier than it already is...


I'm not sure where you get the idea that people are asking for a fast ride to the level cap. Some are, but most are talking about what you do between rank 1 and 50, which right now is not much. Maybe next time read the thread before spewing your malformed opinions of what people are talking about?
#174 Jan 23 2011 at 9:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Quanta wrote:
Bruknarr wrote:
why play XI if you hate party play? One thing I'll never understand.


It wasn't really a question of hating party play; party play was actually quite good if you ended up in a decent group. It rarely happened though unless you were pestering people with their flag down to come tank/heal for you. If you were the kind of person that didn't want to bother people in such a fashion (like I was, and still very much am), you were @#%^ed unless you were a tank/healer, or you latched on for dear life to a born extravert your level and never let go.



I agree that parties could be very hit and miss, but personally I had a lot more good experiences than bad ones even in pick up groups. Sure sometimes the exp/h wasn't as high as it could be, but it was still fun to experiment with less common party builds and whatnot. I was rarely a party leader as well, but I've never really had much trouble getting invites. Most classes had a certain level range where they would be picked up really fast, and a range where it would be much slower.

How would people feel about a system similar to WoW's Dungeon Finder? Flag and queue yourself for the specific role you want to accomplish and go about your business till the game puts together a party for you.
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#175 Jan 23 2011 at 9:23 PM Rating: Good
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Bruknarr wrote:
How would people feel about a system similar to WoW's Dungeon Finder? Flag and queue yourself for the specific role you want to accomplish and go about your business till the game puts together a party for you.


You're treading into dangerous waters with that suggestion. People don't take kindly to WoW suggestions around these parts. >_>

In any event, it's going to depend on what kind of content SE adds to the game. The Dungeon Finder works great for cross-server instance runs, but I'm not sure it would even be a functional tool for making a leveling group on any server even with a healthy population.
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#176 Jan 23 2011 at 9:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Quanta wrote:
Bruknarr wrote:
How would people feel about a system similar to WoW's Dungeon Finder? Flag and queue yourself for the specific role you want to accomplish and go about your business till the game puts together a party for you.


You're treading into dangerous waters with that suggestion. People don't take kindly to WoW suggestions around these parts. >_>

In any event, it's going to depend on what kind of content SE adds to the game. The Dungeon Finder works great for cross-server instance runs, but I'm not sure it would even be a functional tool for making a leveling group on any server even with a healthy population.


Yeah, that's what I thought as well. Unless a lot of people never bothered to flag up and look for party because they felt it would be a waste a time, there might just never be enough people to support it. Though it would eliminate having a bunch of people sitting around twiddling their thumbs and waiting for someone else to take charge.
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#177 Jan 23 2011 at 9:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bruknarr wrote:
Yeah, that's what I thought as well. Unless a lot of people never bothered to flag up and look for party because they felt it would be a waste a time, there might just never be enough people to support it. Though it would eliminate having a bunch of people sitting around twiddling their thumbs and waiting for someone else to take charge.


FFXI actually had an automatic grouping system via /autogroup.

But it was never used, since it always created really crappy parties. If SE would have worked on it some, it could have seen a lot more use. I would welcome the autogroup feature back into FFXIV if it was modified to create workable parties.
#178 Jan 23 2011 at 10:01 PM Rating: Good
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Wolfums wrote:

FFXI actually had an automatic grouping system via /autogroup.

But it was never used, since it always created really crappy parties. If SE would have worked on it some, it could have seen a lot more use. I would welcome the autogroup feature back into FFXIV if it was modified to create workable parties.


You're right, I completely forgot about that.
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#179 Jan 23 2011 at 10:02 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
A thought that just occurred to me... literally, just now, like just this second...

Remember when I said that I like a game where partying is significantly better than soloing to the point that soloing is not even worth it, and partying is the only reasonable method of progression? Setting aside the fact that this is not a commonly held opinion, I just realized a huge flaw in my theory.

Consider the following:

How many parties have you had that were ruined by that one @#%^/elitist/scrub/whatever, but you stuck it out because you HAD to? If soloing is an option, you can bail on a sh*tty parties and go solo instead. If soloing is not an option, you're stuck with sh*tty xp because "Well...it's better than nothing."
Even if you think that soloing sucks, I think we can all agree that sh*tty parties suck WAY worse. Sometimes it's nice to have the option to say "@#%^ this" and go solo instead.


Finally! It's friggin hallelujah day! Someone gets it! That was a huge pet peve of mine in XI. One of the many reasons why I love my duo time with my hubbie <3....btw...whatever happened to that Arch something er other? Did he finally decide to stop kicking that dead horse?
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#180 Jan 23 2011 at 11:26 PM Rating: Default
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Aurelius wrote:
I'm not sure where you get the idea that people are asking for a fast ride to the level cap. Some are, but most are talking about what you do between rank 1 and 50, which right now is not much. Maybe next time read the thread before spewing your malformed opinions of what people are talking about?


I already addressed that what would fix the problem of the pointless grind was a point. Something to fight for...

It seems you even agree with me that there are those out there asking for the quick route to rank cap. If that does not include you, then please try not to get buttsore over comments that don't apply to you.
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#181 Jan 23 2011 at 11:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quanta wrote:
SirEdmundBurke wrote:
It really seems as if so many people are asking for a game they can beat in a few days, like almost everything else put out these days...

I vote yes to the grind. I don't care whether it is party or solo, just don't make it any easier than it already is...


Grind =/= difficulty.


Exactly. Repetition is just time consuming. It neither is easy nor is it hard.

Some people like grinding, others don't. You can't really remove the grind from an MMOG, but you -can- try to make it more fun. Most logical people do not want the grind removed because they want a quick ride to cap, they want it removed because they don't find it fun. Said logical people would usually not mind if they actually ENJOYED it.

People who want the grind removed specifically so that they can get to level cap faster are just lazy.



Bruknarr wrote:
How would people feel about a system similar to WoW's Dungeon Finder? Flag and queue yourself for the specific role you want to accomplish and go about your business till the game puts together a party for you.


If the game -had- instanced dungeons, I'd steal that feature in a heartbeat. Only change I'd make is that I wouldn't make it cross-server. That was the only thing I dislike about the dungeon finder is that it placed you in groups with people you'd likely never see or talk to again. One of the best parts of FFXI was partying with new people, adding them to your friend list, and partying with them again. I got that in WoW -before- the dungeon finder, but ever since it was added, it made it feel less like you were partying with four other people and more like they were NPCs that came and went.

LillithaFenimore wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
A thought that just occurred to me... literally, just now, like just this second...

Remember when I said that I like a game where partying is significantly better than soloing to the point that soloing is not even worth it, and partying is the only reasonable method of progression? Setting aside the fact that this is not a commonly held opinion, I just realized a huge flaw in my theory.

Consider the following:

How many parties have you had that were ruined by that one @#%^/elitist/scrub/whatever, but you stuck it out because you HAD to? If soloing is an option, you can bail on a sh*tty parties and go solo instead. If soloing is not an option, you're stuck with sh*tty xp because "Well...it's better than nothing."
Even if you think that soloing sucks, I think we can all agree that sh*tty parties suck WAY worse. Sometimes it's nice to have the option to say "@#%^ this" and go solo instead.


Finally! It's friggin hallelujah day! Someone gets it! That was a huge pet peve of mine in XI. One of the many reasons why I love my duo time with my hubbie <3....btw...whatever happened to that Arch something er other? Did he finally decide to stop kicking that dead horse?


I think (hope) he watched that video I pointed him to, That or he realized that he couldn't argue against a **** thing I was saying and gave up. Or some combination of the two.
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#182 Jan 24 2011 at 12:11 AM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
If the game -had- instanced dungeons, I'd steal that feature in a heartbeat. Only change I'd make is that I wouldn't make it cross-server. That was the only thing I dislike about the dungeon finder is that it placed you in groups with people you'd likely never see or talk to again. One of the best parts of FFXI was partying with new people, adding them to your friend list, and partying with them again. I got that in WoW -before- the dungeon finder, but ever since it was added, it made it feel less like you were partying with four other people and more like they were NPCs that came and went.


While it is rather impersonal compared to the standard method of group construction, I don't think the tool is really capable of working in a cross-server capacity. I mean, I'm sure it'd work fine on high-pop servers because there'd be plenty of players making use of it. However, if you happened to be on a low-pop server, (or even just a server with a faction imbalance, in the case of WoW), I'm guessing that the tool would be almost non-functional. Imagine waiting 3 hours for your group to form instead of 30 minutes as a DPS.
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Don't play that game anymore. :P
#183 Jan 24 2011 at 12:36 AM Rating: Decent
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My two gil....

Although the same leves over and over again is a little boring, I dont actually mind that grind. The part of the leve quests that irritate me the worst is turning them in after I finish them. If I didnt have to run all over the map every thirty-six hours to turn in leves, I wouldnt mind this part of the game at all. Having to run because I would quickly run out of anima and I have no mount makes the leve system hard to tolerate. I am not sure how making transportation easy would be game breaking. Im not sure how running to the same places over and over and over again makes the world more immersive. Over all, in my opinion, if the constant running was fixed/changed, the leves would be fine. Maybe add more variety...

However, once leves are complete, there needs to be more options. A game doesnt have to be completly new. I dont think SE should be afraid to take ideas from other games. As much as I hate to bring WOW up, there were aspects of that game that I really enjoyed for alot of years. There were many things I hated which is why I no longer play it but I can give Blizzard credit for the things I liked. Gamers like a dungeon crawl. Fighting through an area and killing bosses is fun. Knocking off mini bosses to get to the big boss is fun. In WOW you fought your way through to try and get gear drops. Since FFXIV is based around crafting, maybe have players fight their way through to get a sword hilt or something else used to make a l33t item. FFXIV can use some of other MMOs ideas without becoming a clone. There needs to be things to do to get that epic feel. The Jboot quest EQ1 had that feel. How would a run speed increase be game breaking?

Weaver level 35
Road Runner Slippers
/prerequisite Cobbling Training
Red Velveteen x2
Golden laces X1 ( Rare drop off Crab boss in XXX Dungeon)
Satin Feathers X1 ( Common drop off Dodo boss in yyy Dungeon)
Sparkling Pixie Dust x1 ( drops every time off ZZZ Notorious Wisp)

40% run speed increase
Non-tradeable

Get all of the items and you still must be a high level weaver to make them. This is just one idea. My point is that there needs to be something for people to try to attain, other that levels. I guarantee if there was something as silly as a 40% run increase boot recipe like this one in the game, people would go goofy trying to get it. People would grind out level 35 weaver just for these boots. They would drag all people in their LS to these dungeons repeatedly until they got thier items. Key is to make it hard enough that everyone doesnt have it immediately. Do something like this for every craft and it would be like crack....player population would be hooked.

Key Point Incoming...after these quests are implemented....DO NOT CAVE TO THE CASUALS AND MAKE THE QUESTS EASY.

Last point then I will quit rambling. Implementing silly stuff like these quests would give SE the time they need to fix the other broken parts of the game by keeping us occupied. Battle mechanics...end game...etc



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#184 Jan 24 2011 at 12:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Grind or no grind, I could care less. I just want to party with good (not overly so, calm down soloers) sp. Part of the problem is that party sp is lame and/or broken. The major reason why partying sucks though is lack of role-based classes and party dynamics. If they can fix these 2 things, then for those of us that can't summon the will to solo, partying would become viable. Seriously, the lack of party dynamics and role-based classes make me hate to party. However, I can't bare to adventure alone......... its so lonely (sniffle). I have to have that feeling of comradery. Otherwise, I'm practically falling asleep from boredom after 2 leves. It was like that in FFXI too. If I could not get a party, soloing was not an option. I'd be nodding off after the 4th - 5th kill. I guess you could say that having a group of friends that rely on me gave me motivation to level. Because to me leveling is the necessary evil, until you get to the good part: ENDGAME!!
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#185 Jan 24 2011 at 3:07 AM Rating: Good
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Wolfums wrote:
Bruknarr wrote:
Yeah, that's what I thought as well. Unless a lot of people never bothered to flag up and look for party because they felt it would be a waste a time, there might just never be enough people to support it. Though it would eliminate having a bunch of people sitting around twiddling their thumbs and waiting for someone else to take charge.


FFXI actually had an automatic grouping system via /autogroup.

But it was never used, since it always created really crappy parties. If SE would have worked on it some, it could have seen a lot more use. I would welcome the autogroup feature back into FFXIV if it was modified to create workable parties.
A large part of that problem was the lack of parity with the jobs. During the CoP days the standard set up was tank (preferably NIN), DDs, healer and someone to spam refresh. The major disparities came in the tank and DD department.

People preferred NIN because it generated no downtime and simply required a competent WHM with haste and flash to help them keep shadows up. PLD had to be carried by someone with refresh because of MP pools, and their constant intake of damage translated to more downtime than people wanted. DDs ranged from proficient and desirable (WAR, SAM, RNG, MNK, DRK when skillchains mattered) to mediocre and "last picks" (THF, BST, DRK when it didn't involve closing light, DRG). Auto-grouping works when the classes are pretty much interchangable and you're not too overly reliant on "support" outside of heals. In the end it was better to sit around waiting for either a WHM, BRD and NIN tank than try your luck with less-than-optimal DD and getting stuck with a PLD tanking. Too much time wasted to get to a camp (which means you want the best possible party to ensure a decent exp session and no delays) sealed the deal there. A complicated problem, to say the least.
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#186 Jan 24 2011 at 3:43 AM Rating: Default
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The solo/group issue can be solved very easily.

-Mob level adjusts to # of group members
-Mobs difficulty adjust to # of group members
-SP gain adjusts to Mobs level/difficulty
-No timers on leve's (to adjust for the party Sp gain)
-Increase soloers SP gains to scale with avg party SP (leve's Quests) This allows good group to make out a little atleast
-Mobs level range loot table the same with a decrease in rare drops for soloers ( lv 1-15, 16-24 etc)
-Increase in mob density and pull range (i liked having to run for my life in FFXI)
-Party only zones (something akin to a WoW raid or the Dynamis from FFXI etc)
-Party only or duo,trio missions quests that bring the story together alla FFXI missions
-Fix the interface to allow chatting while in combat. <Help Me> <Wight> anyone?
-Class specific skills instead of jack of all trades. this would atleast make duoing more viable
because if i can heal tank and DD whats the freakin point of getting a partner.
-Specific quests for classes to be soloed - no party allowed or you instantly fail.
-Cap quests like FFXI to be soloed - no PT allowed. figure it out yourself quests with little info to make you think a little.
End-game Group only raids like WoW, FFXI and every other MMO out there. Items you can only get by raiding!


Needs to be a little less "im a every class reject" and more "i can DD or heal either way". Simply the above would be significantly better for all concerned solo, duo, trio, whatever you want to do can get you there. I do think people that try to party and take on tougher mobs whould get better loot. I also think the elitists out there should be able to get higher Sp per hour if they so choose.

The grind BTw as it currently stands is a little too easy. No i dont want FFXI back but a little bit harder would be preferable. That or a level cap at 200 with sub caps at 50 100 150 175. The tradeskills also need to be a little slower with an exception on fishing. If everyone can make that gold breastplate of cool then what incentive do i have to even level it. (WoW skills were a joke)






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#187 Jan 24 2011 at 4:18 AM Rating: Decent
I actually really miss the grind parties...
I made some of my best friends now (online and nowadays real life friends) in a grind party on FFXI.

Leves are fun for as long as they last but to say that they are meant for more "casual" players, I am not so sure which game you play.
One leve can take 20-30 mins ... so doing 8 leves would take half of a working day... PLUS all the running to the Aethrials etc.

In FFXI, I logged on, seeked for party... let's say 20 minutes... partied for 2 hours, gained a level and logged off less than 3 hours later... TO ME and my lifestyle since I have real life as well, the "grinding" actually made a lot more sense and I had more fun than running around from A to B to C to kill the same mobs over and over.
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#188 Jan 24 2011 at 4:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Group/Dungeon finder would be a huge mistake.

WoW Dungeon finder was not server specific and we are trying to build a server community in this game. MMORPG anyone?

Group finder was just about the worst item in all of FFXI. By the time it was released everyone had started static groups due to the lack of time, energy, sanity.

Most people who want to group have ppl in mind that they want to group with. As long as Duo and Trio groups are viable there is no need for a Party finder. That being said they need to make Duo, Trios viable. It isnt difficult to find 1 or 2 ppl who want to party. Raids and the like should be difficult to set up. People who want to come should be able/willing to devote a chunk of time to participating. Quality over quantity.
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#189 Jan 24 2011 at 4:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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I agree that both styles should be avaliable and viable for players.
Most leves are too short to make up for the time it takes to get the leve, run to the camp and run to the mobs.
It's more effective to just kill random stuff for SP.

Would be nice if they made the leves longer and more complex. Increase the number of mobs and add some random factors. For example, you have to beat the mobs in a certain way or with some of your abilities locked like it was in FFXI's Nyzul Isle fights if I'm correct.
That way we could have a bit more variation and leves wouldn't get so repetitive.

To make grinding viable and attractive again the party SP need to change. That's already on Yoshida's list though, so we might see these changes soon.
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#190 Jan 24 2011 at 4:57 AM Rating: Good
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I agree with making guild leve's more involved. Perhaps making them a chain instead of single leve's where if you complete the chain you get better rewards. The chain needs to be story oriented with CS. The rewards for leve need to be drastically altered in some way. Currently there are far too few and the rewards dont reflect the effort as you said.

As for the long leve's i included that in my posting a few up with fixing solo/party play.
Adding duo trio or party Missions (Guild leve adventures) needs to be put in for all styles of play.

As the game stands there is so little offered that just about anything added would be an improvement.
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#191 Jan 24 2011 at 5:08 AM Rating: Good
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The main ingredient this game lacks is love.
The love a painter has for his picture and
the love of an author who really wants to tell a story.

By now, most of those involved possibly can't help but
feel that what they produced is some sort of abomination they
have to artificially keep alive although they don't really want to.

The whole team should go talk to a counselor.


Edited, Jan 24th 2011 6:13am by Rinsui
#192 Jan 24 2011 at 8:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Omena wrote:
Long rant mode on.

Personally, I don't understand why people buy an MMO and then expect to play alone most of the time. Why would you ever buy an MMO if you want to play alone? Buy a single-layer game instead! It's more fun and the gameplay is actually optimized for a single player!

The reason people quest in WoW/WAR/Aion/whatever modern MMO is not because questing alone is more fun, it's because questing alone is more fun than grinding alone. End game bosses in WoW are more fun than solo quests, no? Why is that? Because you're doing team work! The gameplay in current MMOs is too rigid to provide fun if you don't expand the situation to encompass a whole team of players. When you're alone it's mostly just about numbers and not so much about the actions of the player.

Lately I've been trying Cataclysm and Rift and before that I tested WAR. All of these have almost identical quest based progression and I don't even read the quests. I don't know why random NPC wants to free the moles or why another random NPC wants me to kill X amount of birdmen, and frankly, I don't care. Their existence is an insignificant drop in the ocean and I just want to get my exp and move on. I just go to every NPC with a ! on their heads, click the accept buttons, look at the map and head for the nearest quest marker. Rinse and repeat. Every enemy feels the same: They're weak, a threat only when ganging up on me. I could try to interrupt their casts and whatever but why bother when it makes no difference? That spell, whatever it is, isn't going to as much as dent me, let alone make me react to it in any way. Even if I take 10% more damage from non-optimal play, my character regens so fast it makes zero difference. It is just so very, very dull when the game gives you no meaningful feedback. It doesn't reward excellence or penalize failure, it's just kind of an endless sea of gray mush.

I really liked leveling in the pre-2006 era of FFXI. Groups required cooperation rather than spamming your stuff independently. You weren't playing alone together like is so common in other MMOs. Sure, the grind could sometimes get get annoying, but after the first exp curve nerfs it wasn't too bad. You still got to see new, usually quite beautiful or otherwise interesting, areas and new mobs often enough to help alleviate the boredom. In many areas there was also a real risk of death and even the journey to the camp could be perilous. It was just so much more exciting than what we have in current gen hand-holding MMOs.

This is where people point out that they have no desire to wait an hour to get a group. That's where I point out that I'd rather wait an hour to have fun than to endlessly wade through mediocrity because there is no possibility for fun regardless of how long I wait. I played THF to a high level in FFXI, I know what waiting for a group is. I definitely do. Did I get frustrated at times? You bet I did, but at least I had something to look forward to, something to prepare for so that I could be my very best when the time comes. Reputation mattered, you see, and being a good party member was a great way to stand out when people built parties. In WoW I know there's just going to be another quest hub with another set of trivial tasks for me to perform. Every time I group up in WoW I know none of the other guys and I probably won't see them again. This is also why they often play terribly and ninja all your stuff.

Long rant mode off.






Omena I think you hit the nail on the head. I also want to bring to light something else about many players who are western me being included. Its a behavior I am talking about and I feel has become a main staple in modern MMO gaming and doesn't fit well with MMO dynamics which is every player has a sense or need of instant entitlement. MMO's are based on a system of scarcity which what drives people to play them over long periods of time. That Loot or super rare piece of gear or weapon everyone wants, in MMO's like EQ and FFXI many players resorted to some very nasty tactics to attain those items, I was burned a few times in these types of environments. Blizzard with WOW did two things with its gear/weapon drops that helped and made the problem worse. By making very good equipment to easy to get and levels as well it instantly gratified the ego of the player thus getting many MMO gamers used to this kind of rapid level and gear progression.

Sadly gone are the times where the grind is part of the game and the time it took to achieve something meant something. These days its about how many toons you have to max leve, how well spec'd you are, and everyone using a counter to measure their own input into the battle.

These fights even in wow used to be fun when players had to feel out how much damage they should push, or when to scale back damage to allow tanks to garner more hate. MMO gaming has become a task of accounting in terms of maximizing efficiency and getting to end level in the least amount of time possible. Gone is the day where the leveling up part was a fun part of the game and enjoyment of an MMO.

Personally I would like to see a return of party play into the game and balance it between different things to do so that the over all exp/sp is about the same and gives players the option to level according to content they find fun. Whether its group based quest grind, town defence grind, or roaming mob party grind. Make them all have very similar returns and everyone will find a niche thing to do to enjoy the party aspect of the game. For the solo'ers keep them to have solo activities that comes close but isn't the most optimal way to level but they get the added rewards of more loots, materials, and crystals to keep for themselves.

FFXIV at this moment the solo experience leveling is on par with party for the most part, but the added benefit is the ability to make literally a metric ton of gil off shards and raw materials you gathering while doing these activities.

Personally I would welcome group partying back ala ffxi style and as well have other means to level for the times I don't have 2-4 hours to just sit down and do some grinding and socialize away while doing it.

#193 Jan 24 2011 at 9:09 AM Rating: Decent
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146 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I understand people not wanting the party grind to be king like it was in XI... but here is an example... I was with some LS mates doing leves at Skull Valley - we had a nice party going - picked up a couple more members after behest so it was a nice and balanced party with tank, healer and DDs.

We finished all of our leves, and we were having fun playing together, so I suggested we try to kill something together for SP.

Well, we attacked a crab and it took about a minute to kill, and we got less than 100 SP. Before the party SP nerf a similar battle would have netted us 350-500 SP each. Solo we can get 100 each from things that die in ten seconds at R15 with the current system.

So the party broke up.

I didn't bother killing things solo though - cause for me soloing is way more boring than partying.

I just want it to be feasible for people to get good SP in the open world by working together to take down tougher creatures.


Party will become a must when classes will be more defined (right now everyone can tank/dd/cureII simultaneously... come on) and maximum number of members per party will be lowered. Partying needs to be challenging, i-e bad set-up or poorly skilled players means drastically lower SP per hour and repeated death, so everyone learns to play his job and role.

Also longer fights with proportional higher SP as well as exp chains for mobs yellow+ would provide good partying incentives without nerfing solo play. The fatigue system will then play its projected role and prevent hardcore players from having a supposedly unfair advantage.
#194 Jan 24 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
I want parties. I don't care if there are otehr ways to level. FFXI offered a few different ways: Soloing (low sp/hr for the most part), FoV (still soloing, but enhanced sp gains), Parties (blm burn, smn burn, zerg, etc), then of course we had campaign too. All of these were adequate means of leveling. Personally I prefered a standard party. Grab 5 friends, find a good camp, and grind out some mobs for the most XP you could squeeze out in an hour possible. It was fun finding the best camps, and figuring out the best PT setups. If you didn't wanna "figure out" anything you could still do FoV, or campaign. At the moment LQs are nice and behest is decent. But they require too much travel, and dont last very long. So even if they give good sp/xp they wont give good sp/xp over time. Soloing at the moment seems to give just as much sp as PTing (which from my experience so far doesn't even exist anymore post-sp-patch).

I would like to be able to sit in one spot to minimize any wasted time traveling, and just grind out some levels in an organized group. I want to know before hand that I can go out and get a Rank in 1-2 hours because I already know what the sp/hr gains are gonna be. As it is your sp/hr stays the same from Rank 20+ so every rank just adds more time for you to level again. There is no "incentive" to level so-to-speak. THe higher we go the faster (as an organized group exploiting a monsters weaknesses) we should be able to kill. For example, in FFXI I started running a "burn pt" in qufim island. as of then that wasn't very popular or even widely known about. Using a NIN or PLD tank and one RDM healer with a combination of BLMs and SCHs for the rest of the group, you could burn through Crabs and Pugs starting at level 18 or 19. You could effectively get over 20k+ xp/hr using a combination of xp rings and FoV, assuming everyone in the PT knew exactly what to do. Of course havign a PL made it easier allowing you to ditch your healer for another blm or sch, but it wasn't necessary.
THe point is, because of the organization, and exploit of the monsters weakness to ice/lightning we could level on an IT++ mob when normally you wouldnt pt on them til 20~21 ish. THis allowed us to get super fast kills and get from 18-24 in a matter of 2-3 hours tops. Bird PTs in Bhalfau THickets is another example. Using zerg you could kil colibri in 30 sec allowing you to get a near endless xp chain for staggering amount of xp/hr.

THere is nothing liek this yet in FFXIV...we need an option to grind as a group, where there is a significant sp gain benefit over soloing. Until then, theres no reason to try and PT when you can solo the same sp gain and not worry about waiting to group together or having to switch jobs to fit a role in a pt.
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#195 Jan 24 2011 at 10:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm very pleased to see more people who like the idea of group grinding. I hope it becomes a possibility.
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#196 Jan 24 2011 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
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1,636 posts
Bruknarr wrote:
Quanta wrote:
Bruknarr wrote:
why play XI if you hate party play? One thing I'll never understand.


It wasn't really a question of hating party play; party play was actually quite good if you ended up in a decent group. It rarely happened though unless you were pestering people with their flag down to come tank/heal for you. If you were the kind of person that didn't want to bother people in such a fashion (like I was, and still very much am), you were @#%^ed unless you were a tank/healer, or you latched on for dear life to a born extravert your level and never let go.



I agree that parties could be very hit and miss, but personally I had a lot more good experiences than bad ones even in pick up groups. Sure sometimes the exp/h wasn't as high as it could be, but it was still fun to experiment with less common party builds and whatnot. I was rarely a party leader as well, but I've never really had much trouble getting invites. Most classes had a certain level range where they would be picked up really fast, and a range where it would be much slower.

How would people feel about a system similar to WoW's Dungeon Finder? Flag and queue yourself for the specific role you want to accomplish and go about your business till the game puts together a party for you.


I actually think that the wow dungeon finder is the only way to successfully implement group leveling mechanics these days. I think so because it easily handles the problems with groups, mainly that people have varying times available to group, and putting the group together.

Not everyone has several hours to spend leveling, some may have an entire afternoon, someone may have 30 minutes. that type of system (including performing some grouped 30 minute event) allows both people to participate, If you have more time, keep going.

It makes the finding of groups easy, takes a lot of the work out, you don't really have to negotiate with people to get parties setup. I hated in FFXI forming pugs, it always felt like I was negotiating contracts, "Ok this WHM will come if I get a BRD and Nin, the NIN only comes if we've got a BLM etc..."

I mean, yes a static party of your 5 BFFs will always be the best option for grouping. But a dungeon finder is the best option to make PUGs work. Now having said that, DCU released with an abysmal queue/instance feature, so its quite possible to still implement one poorly.
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#197 Jan 24 2011 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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2,214 posts
Someone previous posted about party vs solo mindsets, and missed one. There are the people like myself and my wife, who can't always party (we try and dou as much as we can), but we now have kids in the house, so we can't always dedicate the time necessary to a party w/o constant afking. And lets face it, EVERYONE hates parents in parties. Having the ability to have parents who can pt together, and drop in/out without impacting the party is great, and outside of the mob balance, I honestly think 14 has done that, with leves, and general exp mechanics, and job generalization. Unfortunately, that (and the mob balance), makes it harder for serious parties to find their specific peak SP output.

As for dungeon finder. The reference earlier about the FFXI auto-group (which SE later admitted was broken, and would be more damaging to remove than to leave it in it's pathetic state), 14 has a functioning version of that for partying. It's a great idea, and for leves would work great (but again, no job specialization, and no real reason to invite people for many things). What is really missing is LFP. While requesting people to join parties is nice, and handy, without the initial I am looking for something, the setup can be a pain.

So basically it feels like SE got one idea working in 11 and abandoned the other (for good reason), than got that idea working in 14, but than abandoned the other (for the same reason they feel 14 is suffering... to do something new...).

As for quests. I hate to be as biased as I am about this, but I DON'T CARE if I don't get exp from quests. I do them for the stories, for the interactions, for the immersion. That is part of the game.

In 11 90% (yes I am making a SWAG) were quests that had no tangable gain. The cardian quest chain for example, was a fun bit of running around and learning more about what their deal was. And if you completed those quests, when you completed the Windhurst quest you could understand better why things happened the way that they did.

There was the elvaan vampire quests, the Galkan quests that ended up in altepa, and the norg quests were just plain weird. But, some of these quests while some required you kill a mob for an item, a lot of them were just run around, talk to this person, find a ???, or simply buy something and give it to someone.

Kill quests are redundant, and they are boring, Final Fantasy has always been more than that, and that has always been the thing that has drawn me to the games. It has been sad recently, since 7, there has been a noticeable and painful drop in these types of quests. 8 hardly had any, I don't remember any in 9. 10 had a few, but they just weren't the same, 12 and 13 had zero. And well, because of this, I never completed x-2, 12, or 13. I got 14 hoping that, since 11 was just a storm of these types of funness, that I could get some satisfaction... And I am glad to hear that it will be coming finally. And I find it hard to believe that people argue for simple kill-quests, and call that content, when that has been the one element that had for the longest time kept final fantasy as one of the definitive RPGs was it's interconnected optional quests and storyline that went beyond simply playing through an low/medium res Anime.
#198 Jan 24 2011 at 11:02 AM Rating: Good
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1,146 posts
northernsky wrote:
Party will become a must when classes will be more defined (right now everyone can tank/dd/cureII simultaneously... come on) and maximum number of members per party will be lowered. Partying needs to be challenging, i-e bad set-up or poorly skilled players means drastically lower SP per hour and repeated death, so everyone learns to play his job and role.

Also longer fights with proportional higher SP as well as exp chains for mobs yellow+ would provide good partying incentives without nerfing solo play. The fatigue system will then play its projected role and prevent hardcore players from having a supposedly unfair advantage.

I agree. Especially party setups similar to what we had in FFXI (regarding defined classes) would be great.
But how would you do that? How do you get people to play their class and use its abilities instead of mixing everything together?
I think a sollution would be to give boni for using the abilities of the current class.

For example:
A GLA equips Second Wind, Cure and Protect for solo play. Now that GLA is invited to a party so he equips Provoke, Rampage and Howling Vortex and recieves +5 enmity from Provoke, +20 Def from Rampage and +3 Str from Howling Vortex.
That way the GLA will most likely prefer his own abilities to max his potential in a party and to be able to fight stronger mobs for more SP.

Abilities could also give boni if you combine them. For example equipping Burn and Fire on CON increases fire affinity by 10.
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#199 Jan 24 2011 at 11:23 AM Rating: Default
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11,576 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I'm very pleased to see more people who like the idea of group grinding. I hope it becomes a possibility.


The vocal minority ruins MMOs if a developer listens too closely to them. Not trying to be mean guy, but it's the truth. People only stand up when they feel the urge to complain. In a sea of 100,000 people, if 1% of those people have a gripe they can seem very, very loud in an awful hurry. In a thread labeled as this one is, it wouldn't surprise me that you'd get a polarized response and given that these boards are now largely dominated by FFXI expats, it only makes sense that they'd call for what they're familiar with. Doesn't make it something the devs should be paying close attention to.
#200 Jan 24 2011 at 11:31 AM Rating: Default
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2,202 posts
Cant believe people bash WOW'S Dungeon tool, and then say this is supposed to be a MMORPG! Jesus christ you can group up with people from a totally different server, what more MMORPG can you get ? Does the feature kills in-server grouping ? No, does it not let you make a party from your server or friends or guild and tackle some dungeons ? No!

Then what are you complaining about lol ?
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#201SoumaKyou, Posted: Jan 24 2011 at 11:41 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It makes doing so pointless. Even guild 5-mans just use the dungeon finder instead of running to the dungeons themselves. Most new people don't even know the actual locations of any of the dungeons.
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