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#202 Jan 24 2011 at 11:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Cant believe people bash WOW'S Dungeon tool, and then say this is supposed to be a MMORPG!


Ostia wrote:
Does the feature kills in-server grouping ? No

Yes, it does. The only real reason to form groups is for raids.

Ostia wrote:
does it not let you make a party from your server or friends or guild and tackle some dungeons ? No!

It makes doing so pointless. Even guild 5-mans just use the dungeon finder instead of running to the dungeons themselves. Most new people don't even know the actual locations of any of the dungeons.
#203 Jan 24 2011 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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RidingBean wrote:
northernsky wrote:
Party will become a must when classes will be more defined (right now everyone can tank/dd/cureII simultaneously... come on) and maximum number of members per party will be lowered. Partying needs to be challenging, i-e bad set-up or poorly skilled players means drastically lower SP per hour and repeated death, so everyone learns to play his job and role.

Also longer fights with proportional higher SP as well as exp chains for mobs yellow+ would provide good partying incentives without nerfing solo play. The fatigue system will then play its projected role and prevent hardcore players from having a supposedly unfair advantage.

I agree. Especially party setups similar to what we had in FFXI (regarding defined classes) would be great.
But how would you do that? How do you get people to play their class and use its abilities instead of mixing everything together?
I think a sollution would be to give boni for using the abilities of the current class.

For example:
A GLA equips Second Wind, Cure and Protect for solo play. Now that GLA is invited to a party so he equips Provoke, Rampage and Howling Vortex and recieves +5 enmity from Provoke, +20 Def from Rampage and +3 Str from Howling Vortex.
That way the GLA will most likely prefer his own abilities to max his potential in a party and to be able to fight stronger mobs for more SP.

Abilities could also give boni if you combine them. For example equipping Burn and Fire on CON increases fire affinity by 10.


I like your idea, but as I posted somewhere else, I would see the opposite, i-e ability-specific penalties when equipped cross-class.

SacrificeII (rank 20 ability) on your lancer rank 12? STR -5, MND -3, optimal rank 30 (50% more than the native ability, meaning the penalty will be even greater until your lancer reaches 30.

Still, we agree on the point, just shuffling the mechanics
#204 Jan 24 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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rfolkker wrote:
Someone previous posted about party vs solo mindsets, and missed one. There are the people like myself and my wife, who can't always party (we try and dou as much as we can), but we now have kids in the house, so we can't always dedicate the time necessary to a party w/o constant afking. And lets face it, EVERYONE hates parents in parties. Having the ability to have parents who can pt together, and drop in/out without impacting the party is great, and outside of the mob balance, I honestly think 14 has done that, with leves, and general exp mechanics, and job generalization. Unfortunately, that (and the mob balance), makes it harder for serious parties to find their specific peak SP output.

As for dungeon finder. The reference earlier about the FFXI auto-group (which SE later admitted was broken, and would be more damaging to remove than to leave it in it's pathetic state), 14 has a functioning version of that for partying. It's a great idea, and for leves would work great (but again, no job specialization, and no real reason to invite people for many things). What is really missing is LFP. While requesting people to join parties is nice, and handy, without the initial I am looking for something, the setup can be a pain.

So basically it feels like SE got one idea working in 11 and abandoned the other (for good reason), than got that idea working in 14, but than abandoned the other (for the same reason they feel 14 is suffering... to do something new...).

As for quests. I hate to be as biased as I am about this, but I DON'T CARE if I don't get exp from quests. I do them for the stories, for the interactions, for the immersion. That is part of the game.

In 11 90% (yes I am making a SWAG) were quests that had no tangable gain. The cardian quest chain for example, was a fun bit of running around and learning more about what their deal was. And if you completed those quests, when you completed the Windhurst quest you could understand better why things happened the way that they did.

There was the elvaan vampire quests, the Galkan quests that ended up in altepa, and the norg quests were just plain weird. But, some of these quests while some required you kill a mob for an item, a lot of them were just run around, talk to this person, find a ???, or simply buy something and give it to someone.

Kill quests are redundant, and they are boring, Final Fantasy has always been more than that, and that has always been the thing that has drawn me to the games. It has been sad recently, since 7, there has been a noticeable and painful drop in these types of quests. 8 hardly had any, I don't remember any in 9. 10 had a few, but they just weren't the same, 12 and 13 had zero. And well, because of this, I never completed x-2, 12, or 13. I got 14 hoping that, since 11 was just a storm of these types of funness, that I could get some satisfaction... And I am glad to hear that it will be coming finally. And I find it hard to believe that people argue for simple kill-quests, and call that content, when that has been the one element that had for the longest time kept final fantasy as one of the definitive RPGs was it's interconnected optional quests and storyline that went beyond simply playing through an low/medium res Anime.


It is nice to know that my husband and I aren't the only parents that are playing ^_^ What server are you guys on?

But I agree with you. When my husband and I didn't have the responsibilities we have now, we would hope on XI for hours at a time grinding and grinding. We just can't these days. I really do hope SE finds a good balance and doesn't alienate one group of the other.

As for defined classes...IDK if that is possible with the armory system...and TBH, I don't want the armory system to change. I really enjoy crossing abilities from one class to the next, unlike in XI, where you had your main job, and a sub job (and pending on the sub job the abilities would be horribly gimped). I know the abilities are gimped here too, just not to the extent it was in XI, and I am okay with that...I guess I'm a minority in that regard.

How would XIV have defined classes without this armory system in place? Are many thinking that maybe some of the abilities wouldn't cross over (Like THM and CON Exaltation abilities that give MP)? I know those can't cross over.
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#205 Jan 24 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I'm very pleased to see more people who like the idea of group grinding. I hope it becomes a possibility.


The vocal minority ruins MMOs if a developer listens too closely to them. Not trying to be mean guy, but it's the truth. .


Dude - the survey showed most of the players/people who bought XIV were from XI - where partying was heavy - not from WoW - where soloing is king.

People who like to party may be the minority in the overall MMO world - but I doubt that they are the minority among XI veterans. I know I was looking to have a chance to have some of the same kind of experience in XIV as in XI - and the survey seems to indicate I wasn't alone.

XIV needs to appeal to its base in order to become successful. That means appealing to XI players - that means meaningful party-based content BEFORE end game.

All of us who are in favour of more of a role for parties have made it clear we aren't asking for the devs to remove solo-friendly content - or lower solo SP gains.

You may think the game has to be solo onry to survive - but the developer seems to think otherwise. I'm glad for that.

Final fantasy - even single player titles - HAVE ALWAYS been party based. It is integral to the series.

Almost all MMOs are solo-heavy. XIV will be a niche game regardless - so they might as well appeal to the niche that so desperately wants to like it. You may think that giving people a reason to party will kill the game. Time will tell, I guess.



Edited, Jan 24th 2011 10:04am by Olorinus
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#206 Jan 24 2011 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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northernsky wrote:
RidingBean wrote:
northernsky wrote:
Party will become a must when classes will be more defined (right now everyone can tank/dd/cureII simultaneously... come on) and maximum number of members per party will be lowered. Partying needs to be challenging, i-e bad set-up or poorly skilled players means drastically lower SP per hour and repeated death, so everyone learns to play his job and role.

Also longer fights with proportional higher SP as well as exp chains for mobs yellow+ would provide good partying incentives without nerfing solo play. The fatigue system will then play its projected role and prevent hardcore players from having a supposedly unfair advantage.

I agree. Especially party setups similar to what we had in FFXI (regarding defined classes) would be great.
But how would you do that? How do you get people to play their class and use its abilities instead of mixing everything together?
I think a sollution would be to give boni for using the abilities of the current class.

For example:
A GLA equips Second Wind, Cure and Protect for solo play. Now that GLA is invited to a party so he equips Provoke, Rampage and Howling Vortex and recieves +5 enmity from Provoke, +20 Def from Rampage and +3 Str from Howling Vortex.
That way the GLA will most likely prefer his own abilities to max his potential in a party and to be able to fight stronger mobs for more SP.

Abilities could also give boni if you combine them. For example equipping Burn and Fire on CON increases fire affinity by 10.


I like your idea, but as I posted somewhere else, I would see the opposite, i-e ability-specific penalties when equipped cross-class.

SacrificeII (rank 20 ability) on your lancer rank 12? STR -5, MND -3, optimal rank 30 (50% more than the native ability, meaning the penalty will be even greater until your lancer reaches 30. Still, we agree on the point, just shuffling the mechanics


Yeah IDK how I feel about that.
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#207 Jan 24 2011 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I'm very pleased to see more people who like the idea of group grinding. I hope it becomes a possibility.


The vocal minority ruins MMOs if a developer listens too closely to them. Not trying to be mean guy, but it's the truth. .


Dude - the survey showed most of the players/people who bought XIV were from XI - where partying was heavy - not from WoW - where soloing is king.

People who like to party may be the minority in the overall MMO world - but I doubt that they are the minority among XI veterans. I know I was looking to have a chance to have some of the same kind of experience in XIV as in XI - and the survey seems to indicate I wasn't alone.

XIV needs to appeal to its base in order to become successful. That means appealing to XI players - that means meaningful party-based content BEFORE end game.

All of us who are in favour of more of a role of parties have made it clear we aren't asking for the devs to remove solo-friendly content - or lower solo SP gains.

You may think the game has to be solo onry to survive - but the developer seems to think otherwise. I'm glad for that.

Final fantasy - even single player titles - HAVE ALWAYS been party based. It is integral to the series.

Almost all MMOs are solo-heavy. XIV will be a niche game regardless - so they might as well appeal to the niche that so desperately wants to like it. You may think that giving people a reason to party will kill the game. Time will tell, I guess.

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 10:01am by Olorinus


You are right, however, SE has put themselves in a pickle where they appealed to people like myself saying they would be casual user friendly. So in a way they should have some aspect in there, instead of doing a complete bait and switch.
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#208 Jan 24 2011 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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If we go back to more defined classes wont we go back to waiting around for a tank or healer? I would like a little more definition in the classes, but balanced as well. I do not want to see a class being excluded from a party.
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#209 Jan 24 2011 at 12:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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LillithaFenimore wrote:

You are right, however, SE has put themselves in a pickle where they appealed to people like myself saying they would be casual user friendly. So in a way they should have some aspect in there, instead of doing a complete bait and switch.


I don't see how it would be a bait and switch if they left the things you like alone and added more things for people like me, Mik, Wong etc. who want to party.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#210 Jan 24 2011 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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LillithaFenimore wrote:
northernsky wrote:


I like your idea, but as I posted somewhere else, I would see the opposite, i-e ability-specific penalties when equipped cross-class.

SacrificeII (rank 20 ability) on your lancer rank 12? STR -5, MND -3, optimal rank 30 (50% more than the native ability, meaning the penalty will be even greater until your lancer reaches 30. Still, we agree on the point, just shuffling the mechanics


Yeah IDK how I feel about that.


I don't care too much about how they could do it.

My initial point was that right now I could party with 14 gladiators who can heal me with high level cures and stupidly attack a random mob for bad sp.

If SP increases exponentially with the rank difference between you and the mob, it becomes advantageous to fight tougher mobs.

If fighting tougher mobs = significantly higher SP per hour, you need to be able to fight mobs as tough as possible for your rank.

To do that, you need a balanced and skilled party with defined roles.

And I think that putting harsher restrictions on the number of members in parties would favor "niche" fighting and end up in more parties being formed overall. I remember several times in XI when we had to disband because we could not replace a DD who was leaving but we could possibly still have almost as good exp on slightly weaker mobs. People just did not bother playing in a party that was not optimal for this level. As of now having an optimal party of 15 people is almost impossible.
#211 Jan 24 2011 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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Seventhblood wrote:
If we go back to more defined classes wont we go back to waiting around for a tank or healer? I would like a little more definition in the classes, but balanced as well. I do not want to see a class being excluded from a party.


If classes have a defined and relevant role, they won't be excluded from parties.

Granted if you want to debuff/heal with your gladiator, you probably won't get along well in a party, you will have to learn the role of a gladiator.

And further defining classes does not mean going back to FFXI system. The armory system still allows you to change jobs on the fly, most probably someone in the group can switch to healer or tank and be effective within 5 minutes after cooldowns.

#212 Jan 24 2011 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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SoumaKyou wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Cant believe people bash WOW'S Dungeon tool, and then say this is supposed to be a MMORPG!


Ostia wrote:
Does the feature kills in-server grouping ? No

Yes, it does. The only real reason to form groups is for raids.

Ostia wrote:
does it not let you make a party from your server or friends or guild and tackle some dungeons ? No!

It makes doing so pointless. Even guild 5-mans just use the dungeon finder instead of running to the dungeons themselves. Most new people don't even know the actual locations of any of the dungeons.


Cynicism does not entail fact. You're so off base it's not even amusing.
#213 Jan 24 2011 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I'm very pleased to see more people who like the idea of group grinding. I hope it becomes a possibility.


The vocal minority ruins MMOs if a developer listens too closely to them. Not trying to be mean guy, but it's the truth. People only stand up when they feel the urge to complain. In a sea of 100,000 people, if 1% of those people have a gripe they can seem very, very loud in an awful hurry. In a thread labeled as this one is, it wouldn't surprise me that you'd get a polarized response and given that these boards are now largely dominated by FFXI expats, it only makes sense that they'd call for what they're familiar with. Doesn't make it something the devs should be paying close attention to.


I said before that I know I'm in the minority, and I agree that vocal minorities are louder than silent majorities. That's why I said "I hope it becomes a possibility" and not "OMG SEE WE NEED TO KILL SOLOING AND MAKE THE GAME GROUP GRINDING ONLY". I'm sure someone would try to make that argument, but it won't be me.

I'd like group grinding to be an option that is available to people, should they choose to go that route, but it should not be the primary focus of leveling in FFXIV because it's not fair to the majority of people who -don't- like it.

Ostia wrote:
Cant believe people bash WOW'S Dungeon tool, and then say this is supposed to be a MMORPG! Jesus christ you can group up with people from a totally different server, what more MMORPG can you get ? Does the feature kills in-server grouping ? No, does it not let you make a party from your server or friends or guild and tackle some dungeons ? No!

Then what are you complaining about lol ?


The major complaint about WoW's dungeon tool is the cross server aspect. The best part about making your own groups in WoW pre DF tool or in FFXI is that you meet new people, you remember them, you add them to your friend list, and you try to party with them again. If I meet someone who is on a totally different server, it is impossible for my character and their character to say "Hey, after this dungeon, do you want to do leves?" or "Hey, do you think you'd be willing to help me with an NM later?" because once the group breaks, they're gone pretty much forever, unless luck groups you together again or one of you wants to server hop.

The biggest positive aspect (and for some, the ONLY positive aspect) of forced group leveling in XI was that you met new people and ended up helping each other. Maybe I'm in a group on my level 37 NIN and the healer says they need a coffer key on their PLD. Guess what? I can change to something else and help you with that after this party! Maybe I'm on a party and a guy mentions that he needs a DRK for PM 3-5. Someone else steps in and offers to join.

Here are just a few things that never would have happened if FFXI allowed me to group cross server:

- Our group in Kuftal allianced with another group in Kuftal to take down Pelican for the other group's RDM who wanted the shield.
- I got my Carbuncle's Ruby when a party disbanded and someone asked me if I wanted help with anything; he changed to THF and we headed to Qufim.
- I spent 5 hours helping someone get items for Genkai 1 after a Dunes party when they mentioned that their main was stuck at 50.
- I was invited to a Soboro run by some people I partied with.
- I was in a level 30ish party; Garlaige was full and we actually ended up doing all three Promyvions and getting Lufaise access for four people instead of XPing.

The list could go on, but my point is: Unless you're going to also let my character server hop back and forth as much as I want, for free, with no limitations, I'd rather stick to playing only with players who exist in the same world I do rather than players who exist on another server and I'm likely never to see again. That means no pelican, no ruby, no genkai items, no soboro, no CoP missions...

"Hey, want to join our Linkshell? You can't; you're not on our sever."
"Hey, want to go explore the world? We can't, we're on different servers."
"Hey, do you need me to craft anything for you? I can't, I'm on another server."
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#214 Jan 24 2011 at 1:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Seventhblood wrote:
If we go back to more defined classes wont we go back to waiting around for a tank or healer? I would like a little more definition in the classes, but balanced as well. I do not want to see a class being excluded from a party.


I am a bit concerned about that as well. I know we want them to be "defined", but to me classes in a way are defined, - the DOM and the Armory system. I think, correct me if I am wrong, maybe the armory system is what messes the defined classes up, I think someone somewhere mentioned this already...

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:

You are right, however, SE has put themselves in a pickle where they appealed to people like myself saying they would be casual user friendly. So in a way they should have some aspect in there, instead of doing a complete bait and switch.


I don't see how it would be a bait and switch if they left the things you like alone and added more things for people like me, Mik, Wong etc. who want to party.


Well the bait and switch I guess I am referring to is going to kick it back old school in XI. There were ways to "solo", however soloing IMO and duoing was horrible, unless you were playing the "right" classes with the "right" sub jobs.

I am a little worried, that the things I like such as getting decent exp, soloing on a DOM, will be what it was in XI...just **** near impossible or horrible.

northernsky wrote:
Seventhblood wrote:
If we go back to more defined classes wont we go back to waiting around for a tank or healer? I would like a little more definition in the classes, but balanced as well. I do not want to see a class being excluded from a party.


If classes have a defined and relevant role, they won't be excluded from parties.


Granted if you want to debuff/heal with your gladiator, you probably won't get along well in a party, you will have to learn the role of a gladiator.

And further defining classes does not mean going back to FFXI system. The armory system still allows you to change jobs on the fly, most probably someone in the group can switch to healer or tank and be effective within 5 minutes after cooldowns.




If classes get too defined, as was previous mentioned, yes there are going to be jobs that are excluded. I think it was Mik that mentioned about what happed to DRK. My husband wanted to level DRK so bad...but he and I knew it was be hard to get groups, then you have to factor in "well would we get a good group that knew how to play their jobs? Are we going to get a group that isn't flakey, gets us killed...and etc."

So when SE does make all the changes, these are things I think they need to consider. They have a tough job on their hands w/o a doubt, I think. I am looking forward to seeing how they will implement everything.


Edited, Jan 24th 2011 2:40pm by LillithaFenimore
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#215 Jan 24 2011 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:



Final fantasy - even single player titles - HAVE ALWAYS been party based. It is integral to the series.




Edited, Jan 24th 2011 10:04am by Olorinus



Crisis Core wasn't my favorite entry, but it isn't bad enough to warrant dismissing it entirely.

There was also that game on the Wii. That one we can dismiss.
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#216 Jan 24 2011 at 2:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Quanta wrote:

Grind =/= difficulty.


Exactly. Repetition is just time consuming. It neither is easy nor is it hard.

Some people like grinding, others don't. You can't really remove the grind from an MMOG, but you -can- try to make it more fun. Most logical people do not want the grind removed because they want a quick ride to cap, they want it removed because they don't find it fun. Said logical people would usually not mind if they actually ENJOYED it.

People who want the grind removed specifically so that they can get to level cap faster are just lazy.


I think many people enjoyed the grind, for the most part. Did it get repetitious? Sure, good thing there was alot of content to break the monotony. What made the exp grind fun though was the battle system. It was not a challenge to just go push down mobs. But getting exp chain #500 (in FFXI) was definitely not easy, and yes many including myself found that to be very fun.

My point is that don't make grind any easier, I don't care whether is it party/solo/leve. The amount of exp/hr you can get now is just fine, if not too high already. I don't even care that it isn't immediately self-gratifying or ALWAYS fun. The problem is that battle is currently a mindless button mash. What will fix the current XP/SP situation is adding content and a challenging, strategic, perhaps team oriented, perhaps multifaceted battle system.

Will there always be complainers wanting things to come to them faster? Of course, myself included probably. I just hope SE doesn't listen to them (or me at times) because I'm sure people will feel so much better having to put in the extra effort to accomplish their goals.
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#217 Jan 24 2011 at 2:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Here are just a few things that never would have happened if FFXI allowed me to group cross server:

- Our group in Kuftal allianced with another group in Kuftal to take down Pelican for the other group's RDM who wanted the shield.
- I got my Carbuncle's Ruby when a party disbanded and someone asked me if I wanted help with anything; he changed to THF and we headed to Qufim.
- I spent 5 hours helping someone get items for Genkai 1 after a Dunes party when they mentioned that their main was stuck at 50.
- I was invited to a Soboro run by some people I partied with.
- I was in a level 30ish party; Garlaige was full and we actually ended up doing all three Promyvions and getting Lufaise access for four people instead of XPing.

The list could go on, but my point is: Unless you're going to also let my character server hop back and forth as much as I want, for free, with no limitations, I'd rather stick to playing only with players who exist in the same world I do rather than players who exist on another server and I'm likely never to see again. That means no pelican, no ruby, no genkai items, no soboro, no CoP missions...


I would argue that you could achieve most, if not all, of those goals just by being active in server chat channels (eg. trade chat) or on official forums. You could even offer your services in some cases ("anyone need a hand with anything?").
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Don't play that game anymore. :P
#218 Jan 24 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Decent
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LillithaFenimore wrote:
rfolkker wrote:
Someone previous posted about party vs solo mindsets, and missed one. There are the people like myself and my wife, who can't always party (we try and dou as much as we can), but we now have kids in the house, so we can't always dedicate the time necessary to a party w/o constant afking. And lets face it, EVERYONE hates parents in parties. Having the ability to have parents who can pt together, and drop in/out without impacting the party is great, and outside of the mob balance, I honestly think 14 has done that, with leves, and general exp mechanics, and job generalization. Unfortunately, that (and the mob balance), makes it harder for serious parties to find their specific peak SP output.

As for dungeon finder. The reference earlier about the FFXI auto-group (which SE later admitted was broken, and would be more damaging to remove than to leave it in it's pathetic state), 14 has a functioning version of that for partying. It's a great idea, and for leves would work great (but again, no job specialization, and no real reason to invite people for many things). What is really missing is LFP. While requesting people to join parties is nice, and handy, without the initial I am looking for something, the setup can be a pain.

So basically it feels like SE got one idea working in 11 and abandoned the other (for good reason), than got that idea working in 14, but than abandoned the other (for the same reason they feel 14 is suffering... to do something new...).

As for quests. I hate to be as biased as I am about this, but I DON'T CARE if I don't get exp from quests. I do them for the stories, for the interactions, for the immersion. That is part of the game.

In 11 90% (yes I am making a SWAG) were quests that had no tangable gain. The cardian quest chain for example, was a fun bit of running around and learning more about what their deal was. And if you completed those quests, when you completed the Windhurst quest you could understand better why things happened the way that they did.

There was the elvaan vampire quests, the Galkan quests that ended up in altepa, and the norg quests were just plain weird. But, some of these quests while some required you kill a mob for an item, a lot of them were just run around, talk to this person, find a ???, or simply buy something and give it to someone.

Kill quests are redundant, and they are boring, Final Fantasy has always been more than that, and that has always been the thing that has drawn me to the games. It has been sad recently, since 7, there has been a noticeable and painful drop in these types of quests. 8 hardly had any, I don't remember any in 9. 10 had a few, but they just weren't the same, 12 and 13 had zero. And well, because of this, I never completed x-2, 12, or 13. I got 14 hoping that, since 11 was just a storm of these types of funness, that I could get some satisfaction... And I am glad to hear that it will be coming finally. And I find it hard to believe that people argue for simple kill-quests, and call that content, when that has been the one element that had for the longest time kept final fantasy as one of the definitive RPGs was it's interconnected optional quests and storyline that went beyond simply playing through an low/medium res Anime.


It is nice to know that my husband and I aren't the only parents that are playing ^_^ What server are you guys on?

But I agree with you. When my husband and I didn't have the responsibilities we have now, we would hope on XI for hours at a time grinding and grinding. We just can't these days. I really do hope SE finds a good balance and doesn't alienate one group of the other.

As for defined classes...IDK if that is possible with the armory system...and TBH, I don't want the armory system to change. I really enjoy crossing abilities from one class to the next, unlike in XI, where you had your main job, and a sub job (and pending on the sub job the abilities would be horribly gimped). I know the abilities are gimped here too, just not to the extent it was in XI, and I am okay with that...I guess I'm a minority in that regard.

How would XIV have defined classes without this armory system in place? Are many thinking that maybe some of the abilities wouldn't cross over (Like THM and CON Exaltation abilities that give MP)? I know those can't cross over.


We are on Mysidia. If you are there, look for Mara Jade or Lythe Jade:).
#219 Jan 24 2011 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Final fantasy - even single player titles - HAVE ALWAYS been party based. It is integral to the series.


Sure, but that's the story for almost any RPG, WoW included. You aren't going around killing the most powerful beings in the world singlehandedly, and I doubt it takes the combined effort of 6 people to kill a common crab.

Quote:
Almost all MMOs are solo-heavy. XIV will be a niche game regardless - so they might as well appeal to the niche that so desperately wants to like it. You may think that giving people a reason to party will kill the game. Time will tell, I guess.


I doubt SE wants FFXIV to remain in its niche, assuming they're hoping to at least make their money back.
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Don't play that game anymore. :P
#220 Jan 24 2011 at 3:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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LillithaFenimore wrote:
If classes get too defined, as was previous mentioned, yes there are going to be jobs that are excluded. I think it was Mik that mentioned about what happed to DRK.


I don't think it was me who mentioned that but I could be wrong.

SirEdmundBurke wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Quanta wrote:

Grind =/= difficulty.


Exactly. Repetition is just time consuming. It neither is easy nor is it hard.

Some people like grinding, others don't. You can't really remove the grind from an MMOG, but you -can- try to make it more fun. Most logical people do not want the grind removed because they want a quick ride to cap, they want it removed because they don't find it fun. Said logical people would usually not mind if they actually ENJOYED it.

People who want the grind removed specifically so that they can get to level cap faster are just lazy.


I think many people enjoyed the grind, for the most part. Did it get repetitious? Sure, good thing there was alot of content to break the monotony. What made the exp grind fun though was the battle system. It was not a challenge to just go push down mobs. But getting exp chain #500 (in FFXI) was definitely not easy, and yes many including myself found that to be very fun.

My point is that don't make grind any easier, I don't care whether is it party/solo/leve. The amount of exp/hr you can get now is just fine, if not too high already. I don't even care that it isn't immediately self-gratifying or ALWAYS fun. The problem is that battle is currently a mindless button mash. What will fix the current XP/SP situation is adding content and a challenging, strategic, perhaps team oriented, perhaps multifaceted battle system.

Will there always be complainers wanting things to come to them faster? Of course, myself included probably. I just hope SE doesn't listen to them (or me at times) because I'm sure people will feel so much better having to put in the extra effort to accomplish their goals.


The thing is, -many- people did enjoy grinding. However, -most- people didn't. That's the catch there.

Quanta wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Here are just a few things that never would have happened if FFXI allowed me to group cross server:

- Our group in Kuftal allianced with another group in Kuftal to take down Pelican for the other group's RDM who wanted the shield.
- I got my Carbuncle's Ruby when a party disbanded and someone asked me if I wanted help with anything; he changed to THF and we headed to Qufim.
- I spent 5 hours helping someone get items for Genkai 1 after a Dunes party when they mentioned that their main was stuck at 50.
- I was invited to a Soboro run by some people I partied with.
- I was in a level 30ish party; Garlaige was full and we actually ended up doing all three Promyvions and getting Lufaise access for four people instead of XPing.

The list could go on, but my point is: Unless you're going to also let my character server hop back and forth as much as I want, for free, with no limitations, I'd rather stick to playing only with players who exist in the same world I do rather than players who exist on another server and I'm likely never to see again. That means no pelican, no ruby, no genkai items, no soboro, no CoP missions...


I would argue that you could achieve most, if not all, of those goals just by being active in server chat channels (eg. trade chat) or on official forums. You could even offer your services in some cases ("anyone need a hand with anything?").


I would counterargue that after you're in a party with someone for a couple hours and you realize that they're a cool person who knows how to play and they have a good nature and attitude about them, you're a lot more inclined to help them than someone who is just randomly asking "Can someone help me with something?" in say.

I can't begin to count the number of random people I've offered to help with something based on seeing them ask for help in /s or /sh and not finding out until an hour later that:

- They have no idea where they're supposed to go or what to do
- They forgot something and now have to run back to town to get it
- They don't bring oil and powder and expect me to not only sneak/invis them, but to know when their sneak and invis are wearing
- They are a huge aggro magnet
- They're impatient and/or ungrateful

Everyone talks about the horrors of terrible pickup groups when they pug 5 man content in WoW or horrible parties in FFXI where people are idiots and ruin everyone's good time... Agreeing to help some random person is subject to this same chance of becoming a total and utter disaster.

Conversely, if you've already been partying with the person for a couple hours and you know they aren't functionally retarded, you suddenly feel a lot more willing to help them.

The thing I loved about FFXI is that it allowed me to meet new friends and acquaintances, add them to my friend list, and group with them again for years to come. I got that out of WoW at first as well. But once WoW added the cross server seeking function, 90% of the people I'd partied with from that day on were people I'd never see or hear from again.

How am I expected to form and maintain relationships with new people when I will never see most of them again? I don't think that randomly trying to ask from help from strangers by shouting in town is a better solution than making friends in parties who you know you can rely on and asking those friends for help instead.

EDIT: In summary, for me, the most important part of an MMORPG is the friendships and relationships I form with people I meet. I don't look at other players as only being there when I need them to help me clear group content. I don't look at other players as a commodity that I can fill my group with when I want a group and I can disband when I'm done with them. I look at other players as people. Real people who have real interests and sometimes these real people just want to chit chat about things. It doesn't always have to be about needing or giving help. Maybe the DRG in my party is a fan of anime and a week later I wanted to ask him if he has seen Azumanga Daioh. Maybe that WHM I partied with last week is a football fan and they wanted to ask who I think is a better Wide Receiver.

And ****, sometimes you just happen to run into someone in the world that you partied with a week ago and you wave to them and they wave back. Can't wave to someone on another server.

When the vast majority of people you a party with are people you'll never see again, you miss out on the ability to make as many new friends and acquaintances. Other characters are no longer "players", but they become a commodity to fill your group with when you need them and leave when you don't.

In short, I'd rather stick with the world of people I have decided to play on and get to know them and befriend them as the years go by than be inundated with leagues of players that I have little chance of running into ever again.

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 4:10pm by Mikhalia
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#221 Jan 24 2011 at 3:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Contrary to popular belief, cross-realm grouping didn't completely kill off WOW's dungeon groups. There's still TONS of 5 man heroic groups that recruit in trade or LFG chat. The dungeon finder tool was a blessing for easy content and levelup dungeons, but a huge chunk of people avoid it for hard content.
#222 Jan 24 2011 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I'm very pleased to see more people who like the idea of group grinding. I hope it becomes a possibility.


The vocal minority ruins MMOs if a developer listens too closely to them. Not trying to be mean guy, but it's the truth. .


Dude - the survey showed most of the players/people who bought XIV were from XI - where partying was heavy - not from WoW - where soloing is king.

People who like to party may be the minority in the overall MMO world - but I doubt that they are the minority among XI veterans. I know I was looking to have a chance to have some of the same kind of experience in XIV as in XI - and the survey seems to indicate I wasn't alone.

XIV needs to appeal to its base in order to become successful. That means appealing to XI players - that means meaningful party-based content BEFORE end game.

All of us who are in favour of more of a role for parties have made it clear we aren't asking for the devs to remove solo-friendly content - or lower solo SP gains.

You may think the game has to be solo onry to survive - but the developer seems to think otherwise. I'm glad for that.

Final fantasy - even single player titles - HAVE ALWAYS been party based. It is integral to the series.

Almost all MMOs are solo-heavy. XIV will be a niche game regardless - so they might as well appeal to the niche that so desperately wants to like it. You may think that giving people a reason to party will kill the game. Time will tell, I guess.



Edited, Jan 24th 2011 10:04am by Olorinus



This sums up exactly how I feel. Thank you for typing it out for me. ^^'
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#223 Jan 24 2011 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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For reference purposes - evidence that the developer is interpreting survey results to mean the majority of people who have bought the game want/need more group based content:

Quote:

I cannot help but be concerned over the 4.6% result for socializing. This leads me to believe that in its current state, the game is lacking group-oriented goals and means of communication. Rest assured we will be addressing this issue together with the battle system.


Quote:
Once prioritized changes to the battle system have been made, we will continue to balance and adjust guildleve and behest rewards, as well as improve overall user-friendliness. I realize there are many things, but for me the first order of business is to create the FINAL FANTASY feeling. To have players take part in engaging quests that place them in a struggle against an impending crisis that threatens their world. To have those players combine their strength and fight alongside one another.


Quote:
Improvements to skill point acquisition for parties


So, those of us who look forward to more group-based content have an ally in Yoshi-P.

Smiley: grin

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 1:56pm by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#224 Jan 24 2011 at 4:27 PM Rating: Default
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SoumaKyou wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Cant believe people bash WOW'S Dungeon tool, and then say this is supposed to be a MMORPG!


Ostia wrote:
Does the feature kills in-server grouping ? No

Yes, it does. The only real reason to form groups is for raids.

Ostia wrote:
does it not let you make a party from your server or friends or guild and tackle some dungeons ? No!

It makes doing so pointless. Even guild 5-mans just use the dungeon finder instead of running to the dungeons themselves. Most new people don't even know the actual locations of any of the dungeons.


Man you are such a lying douchebag is not even funny <.<

You have to actually go to said dungeons for them to be unlocked in the LFG tool, do you have an idea as to what you are talking bout ? or do you just make BS comment's and hope they pass for fact's ?

Also is way better to run heroics with your guild, that way every person can get their off spec gear also, instead of hoping that some DPS will let you need for your offspec as a prot pally for example, not to mention that guilds now level up and doing heroics/raids with your guild increases the % bonus of aquired EXP <.<

So STFU
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#225 Jan 24 2011 at 4:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
You have to actually go to said dungeons for them to be unlocked in the LFG tool, do you have an idea as to what you are talking bout ? or do you just make BS comment's and hope they pass for fact's ?


Uh... no. You don't.

Don't believe me? Level a character to 15-20+ and then open up the dungeon finder.

The only time you have to walk to them is if you die inside. I can't count the number of times post LFG tool I've had someone die in BRD or Maraudon or BFD or Scholomance or something and have no clue how to get there.

For someone accusing someone else of trying to "make BS comment's and hope they pass for fact's" [sic], you turn around and do the same thing.

Also, an apostrophe is for contractions or possessives. It does not mean "here comes an S!"

EDIT: Faster proof, since leveling to 15-20 takes too long: Create a death knight. Open queue. Look at dungeons.

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 5:35pm by Mikhalia
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Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#226 Jan 24 2011 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I'm very pleased to see more people who like the idea of group grinding. I hope it becomes a possibility.


The vocal minority ruins MMOs if a developer listens too closely to them. Not trying to be mean guy, but it's the truth. People only stand up when they feel the urge to complain. In a sea of 100,000 people, if 1% of those people have a gripe they can seem very, very loud in an awful hurry. In a thread labeled as this one is, it wouldn't surprise me that you'd get a polarized response and given that these boards are now largely dominated by FFXI expats, it only makes sense that they'd call for what they're familiar with. Doesn't make it something the devs should be paying close attention to.


I wouldn't be too sure we're in the minority that you think we're in. You state alot of things as gospel sometimes Aurelius when you have no facts to back it up. Specifically, in a minority so much that adding bringing it back would be detrimental to the game. I believe quite the contrary, it will provide a significant boost in players, and overall player satisfaction, even though it's only one of many areas the game needs improvement.

Think about it this way...if FFXIV could ever get to the peak of what FFXI did, it would be a huge success relative to where it's at or currently headed. Do you think there's not enough people who enjoyed the old FFXI that would support this game? I think some of us older people, who say things like "well I have kids now, I can't devote to those kinds of parties" fail to realize that for every one of you who say that now, there's two more younger versions of you who would like to play that way.

I firmly believe bringing back the FFXI feeling/playstyle is probably the best thing they can do right now. Even if some of you say it's a bait and switch, too bad, they're bottom line is currently in the red. It needs to move above the line, and the message I got from the "Letters from the Producer" clearly indicated they need FFXIV to cater to FFXI fans and become more FFXI-esque.
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#227 Jan 24 2011 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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LillithaFenimore wrote:


You are right, however, SE has put themselves in a pickle where they appealed to people like myself saying they would be casual user friendly. So in a way they should have some aspect in there, instead of doing a complete bait and switch.


How does SE say it? {That's just too bad!}

Seriously, so what they said it was casual. Nobody is saying take casual out, but right now the game is failing and they need to cater to the core fan-base. The game is failing, and they need to fix that, and it's clear fixing that will require bringing back the old FFXI feel IMO.

I'm sure you parents will find a way to grind if it's addicting like FFXI was. My kids are 8 & 11 and I can find time to grind.
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#228 Jan 24 2011 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
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wrongfeifong wrote:
I think FFXIV needs the old "team and get go" grinding style.

+1
But they wound need to address that FFXIV is the only MMORPG i know of where you cannot rest for Mana...
I miss the 3 hours of PT grinding. 3 hr of solo grinding = Smiley: oyvey but it was always fun in a group!
#229 Jan 24 2011 at 4:57 PM Rating: Good
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447 posts
LillithaFenimore wrote:


Well the bait and switch I guess I am referring to is going to kick it back old school in XI. There were ways to "solo", however soloing IMO and duoing was horrible, unless you were playing the "right" classes with the "right" sub jobs.

I am a little worried, that the things I like such as getting decent exp, soloing on a DOM, will be what it was in XI...just **** near impossible or horrible.



Why in the **** does everyone assume that if party play came back, that the current solo play you guys like has to go away? And Aurelius, before you start with some crap about how you can't have solo type mobs in the same zones with mobs that are there for parties, just stop, let the developers figure that stuff out. That's why they're game developers.

If you like what you're getting today, then keep getting it. Even if I start getting more SP than you in a party, I haven't changed your gaming experience at all. So don't worry about ABC player in a party gets more SP now than I do. If you thought it was good for you before, then it should be good for you then. Kinda like the guy at work who, with the same job, gets ****** because I make 2$ an hour more than him. If your pay suited you before, then it still suits you, you're just jealous for whatever reason.
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#230 Jan 24 2011 at 5:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

The thing is, -many- people did enjoy grinding. However, -most- people didn't. That's the catch there.



No, the thing is, that -many- people is *MANY MANY MANY* more people would play/enjoy FFXIV than currently do. They need those people to stop the bleeding.
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#231 Jan 24 2011 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
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11,576 posts
KnocturnalOne wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:


Well the bait and switch I guess I am referring to is going to kick it back old school in XI. There were ways to "solo", however soloing IMO and duoing was horrible, unless you were playing the "right" classes with the "right" sub jobs.

I am a little worried, that the things I like such as getting decent exp, soloing on a DOM, will be what it was in XI...just **** near impossible or horrible.



Why in the **** does everyone assume that if party play came back, that the current solo play you guys like has to go away? And Aurelius, before you start with some crap about how you can't have solo type mobs in the same zones with mobs that are there for parties, just stop, let the developers figure that stuff out. That's why they're game developers.


The devs have figured it out. That's thy you get leves with mobs that can scale based on party size. That's why developers who are not SE put group mobs in dungeons or segregate them into small areas of specific zones. And in the case of the open world group mobs, they aren't intended for group grinding. They're typically there as part of group quests. At some point some of you are just going to have to wise up and get over the pipe dreams. You left it up to SE to figure out enough and reinvent the wheel enough already and look what you got. It's time for SE and their steadfast fans to get with the times. Looks like Yoshida might be on the right track. Are you?


Edited, Jan 24th 2011 3:09pm by Aurelius
#232 Jan 24 2011 at 5:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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9,526 posts
sideways wrote:
wrongfeifong wrote:
I think FFXIV needs the old "team and get go" grinding style.

+1
But they wound need to address that FFXIV is the only MMORPG i know of where you cannot rest for Mana...
I miss the 3 hours of PT grinding. 3 hr of solo grinding = Smiley: oyvey but it was always fun in a group!


You run out of mana? For serious?

FFFFFed if I want to sit on my **** again now that I know the joy of nearly infinite MP.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#233 Jan 24 2011 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:


You are right, however, SE has put themselves in a pickle where they appealed to people like myself saying they would be casual user friendly. So in a way they should have some aspect in there, instead of doing a complete bait and switch.


How does SE say it? {That's just too bad!}

Seriously, so what they said it was casual. Nobody is saying take casual out, but right now the game is failing and they need to cater to the core fan-base. The game is failing, and they need to fix that, and it's clear fixing that will require bringing back the old FFXI feel IMO.

I'm sure you parents will find a way to grind if it's addicting like FFXI was. My kids are 8 & 11 and I can find time to grind.



KnocturnalOne wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:


Well the bait and switch I guess I am referring to is going to kick it back old school in XI. There were ways to "solo", however soloing IMO and duoing was horrible, unless you were playing the "right" classes with the "right" sub jobs.

I am a little worried, that the things I like such as getting decent exp, soloing on a DOM, will be what it was in XI...just **** near impossible or horrible.



Why in the **** does everyone assume that if party play came back, that the current solo play you guys like has to go away? And Aurelius, before you start with some crap about how you can't have solo type mobs in the same zones with mobs that are there for parties, just stop, let the developers figure that stuff out. That's why they're game developers.

If you like what you're getting today, then keep getting it. Even if I start getting more SP than you in a party, I haven't changed your gaming experience at all. So don't worry about ABC player in a party gets more SP now than I do. If you thought it was good for you before, then it should be good for you then. Kinda like the guy at work who, with the same job, gets ****** because I make 2$ an hour more than him. If your pay suited you before, then it still suits you, you're just jealous for whatever reason.


No it doesn't mean they will bring back the old ways of level grinding? Do you work for SE? Do you have insight none of us have? No one knows what they will do in order to bring group cohesion so please don't act like you know.

And I am so happy you can find time to grind, considering you have kids, sorry some of us don't. So please don't put some of our situations in comparisons to yours.

No one is jealous, if you interpret a discussion that some are having are "jealousy", then you aren't obviously reading this entire thread and some of the threads myself and others have posted on, which is fine, but at least take the time to read the entire thread before you make such accusations. So please do the community a favor and stop trolling, or post some relavent information or discussion in a decent manner.

The point is NO ONE wants to be left out. We seem to all agree there needs to be some sort of balance, and that seems to sum up the discussion. Some want group play, but understand soloers/casuals players stance, and vice-a-versa.
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#234 Jan 24 2011 at 5:21 PM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Ostia wrote:
You have to actually go to said dungeons for them to be unlocked in the LFG tool, do you have an idea as to what you are talking bout ? or do you just make BS comment's and hope they pass for fact's ?


Uh... no. You don't.

Don't believe me? Level a character to 15-20+ and then open up the dungeon finder.

The only time you have to walk to them is if you die inside. I can't count the number of times post LFG tool I've had someone die in BRD or Maraudon or BFD or Scholomance or something and have no clue how to get there.

For someone accusing someone else of trying to "make BS comment's and hope they pass for fact's" [sic], you turn around and do the same thing.

Also, an apostrophe is for contractions or possessives. It does not mean "here comes an S!"

EDIT: Faster proof, since leveling to 15-20 takes too long: Create a death knight. Open queue. Look at dungeons.

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 5:35pm by Mikhalia


"Points at Cataclysm"

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#235 Jan 24 2011 at 5:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
Looks like Yoshida might be on the right track. Are you?


Edited, Jan 24th 2011 3:09pm by Aurelius


I do believe so, but I think you live in fantasy land sometimes. I think you like to argue so you can go back and read your posts and get some warm and fuzzy feeling when you come across smarter than others. I think I understand where the games headed and you don't.

But in the end, you'll keep arguing and post-whoring to make your views dominant on ZAM and believing you represent not only what's right (even though that's only in your mind), but what's factual, and what's forseeable in the near future.

Sadly, it's just your disconnected sense of reality sometimes.

Yes, I went there. Cause you've annoyed me.
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#236 Jan 24 2011 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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447 posts
LillithaFenimore wrote:


No it doesn't mean they will bring back the old ways of level grinding? Do you work for SE? Do you have insight none of us have? No one knows what they will do in order to bring group cohesion so please don't act like you know.

And I am so happy you can find time to grind, considering you have kids, sorry some of us don't. So please don't put some of our situations in comparisons to yours.

No one is jealous, if you interpret a discussion that some are having are "jealousy", then you aren't obviously reading this entire thread and some of the threads myself and others have posted on, which is fine, but at least take the time to read the entire thread before you make such accusations. So please do the community a favor and stop trolling, or post some relavent information or discussion in a decent manner.

The point is NO ONE wants to be left out. We seem to all agree there needs to be some sort of balance, and that seems to sum up the discussion. Some want group play, but understand soloers/casuals players stance, and vice-a-versa.


I've stated multiple times that I simply "believe" this is where the game is headed.

I'm not comparing my situation to yours, what I said was that for every one of you parents like yourself, there's many more younger versions without kids who CAN put themselves in your previous situation.

How will you be left out if you still get to have a solo/casual friendly experience?

Edit - edited post to remove offensive statement, not try to offend anyone (well, except one)

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 6:33pm by KnocturnalOne
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#237 Jan 24 2011 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good
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Sad fact is, most players want group play primarily as per FFXI. There is nothing this game offers solo that any other game doesn't do better.

It isn't there and the servers are empty because of it. Renew the group play focus and maybe we'll see some increase in activity but until that happens, enjoy your laborius drawn-out solo grind.
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#238 Jan 24 2011 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
Why in the **** does everyone assume that if party play came back, that the current solo play you guys like has to go away?


I think the main worry is that party-goers won't simply be content with being on an even playing field to the solo crowd. When partying becomes a viable alternative, and people continue to struggle to assemble groups (and I imagine that this will be the case), they'll demand greater incentives for grouping, not because they're warranted, but because having those incentives is the only thing that keeps them supplied with fresh bodies. I avoid grouping for mundane tasks like killing crabs because 1) it wears on me far faster than when I'm by myself; 2) I always seem to have the misfortune of ending up with either the special needs kids or the raging, self-serving ********, even when I do everything I need to do right. I mean, it's cool if we have **** in common, that's great, I love it. But please, PLEASE know the basics of playing the god damned game.

Quote:
Kinda like the guy at work who, with the same job, gets ****** because I make 2$ an hour more than him. If your pay suited you before, then it still suits you, you're just jealous for whatever reason.


You left out the part where you're not nearly as good as the other guy, but you still got the raise because nobody schmoozes like you do.
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#239 Jan 24 2011 at 5:46 PM Rating: Default
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
I do believe so, but I think you live in fantasy land sometimes. I think you like to argue so you can go back and read your posts and get some warm and fuzzy feeling when you come across smarter than others. I think I understand where the games headed and you don't.

But in the end, you'll keep arguing and post-whoring to make your views dominant on ZAM and believing you represent not only what's right (even though that's only in your mind), but what's factual, and what's forseeable in the near future.

Sadly, it's just your disconnected sense of reality sometimes.

Yes, I went there. Cause you've annoyed me.


You're pretty easy to annoy. You do realize that almost every time someone has been butthurt because their dinosaur pipe dreams got shot down in a discussion, the typical response in a last desperate gasp to cling to a bad idea has been, "Well...well...YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO!!"

Did you miss the interview with Tanaka and Komoto shortly after launch where they explicitly said that they came up with the leve system for players to group and tackle and that they noticed a lot of players were doing them solo and to please try grouping for them? I bet you did, or at least you've forgotten. That was their attempt at segregating group mobs from solo mobs so your rank 12 miner wouldn't get clobbered by the 5-star humanoid mobs spawned for the group doing leves out of Camp Horizon. You simply can't have an abundance of aggressive mobs that require a group to kill mixed in with mobs tuned for solo players without ruining the solo experience. And if you disagree, at least TRY to argue points that make sense instead of the tired old "you don't know!!" line. Seriously. And if your best response is to take shots at me instead of addressing the issue, don't bother at all.
#240 Jan 24 2011 at 5:59 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:


You're pretty easy to annoy. You do realize that almost every time someone has been butthurt because their dinosaur pipe dreams got shot down in a discussion, the typical response in a last desperate gasp to cling to a bad idea has been, "Well...well...YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO!!"


No, my annoyance meter only detects you as annoying sometimes. It usually has a pretty good threshold before I feel like giving someone like you a taste of your own medicine. You continuously make "I'm holier than thou" comments on these boards. I've stated my viewpoints and supported my statements based on my perception of current issues, what they're addressing, and how that can help the game.

Aurelius wrote:


Did you miss the interview with Tanaka and Komoto shortly after launch where they explicitly said that they came up with the leve system for players to group and tackle and that they noticed a lot of players were doing them solo and to please try grouping for them? I bet you did, or at least you've forgotten. That was their attempt at segregating group mobs from solo mobs so your rank 12 miner wouldn't get clobbered by the 5-star humanoid mobs spawned for the group doing leves out of Camp Horizon. You simply can't have an abundance of aggressive mobs that require a group to kill mixed in with mobs tuned for solo players without ruining the solo experience. And if you disagree, at least TRY to argue points that make sense instead of the tired old "you don't know!!" line. Seriously. And if your best response is to take shots at me instead of addressing the issue, don't bother at all.


I didn't miss those interviews. That was their attempt then. But, you know what, it's not working, so now they have to change gears and try it a different way. A way that's not so 'reinventing-the-wheel' like, *cough cough* FFXI-like.

Edit - I've decided to further debate with you...debating the developmental rails/constraints that you think are unable to be overcome in some ways. How about they could change the leve system where it only works for soloing, and that if you're tagged as having a leve activated (for solo content), then roaming around that particular area mobs made for partying are no longer aggressive to you. This way, solo players would use leves and party players would be partying, and everyone gets their cake and eat it too.

But again, you consistently think of constraints based on your experience, but experience tells me that you're not a game developer and they probably can overcome obstacles in development that you could never think of.

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 7:05pm by KnocturnalOne
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#241 Jan 24 2011 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:


No it doesn't mean they will bring back the old ways of level grinding? Do you work for SE? Do you have insight none of us have? No one knows what they will do in order to bring group cohesion so please don't act like you know.

And I am so happy you can find time to grind, considering you have kids, sorry some of us don't. So please don't put some of our situations in comparisons to yours.

No one is jealous, if you interpret a discussion that some are having are "jealousy", then you aren't obviously reading this entire thread and some of the threads myself and others have posted on, which is fine, but at least take the time to read the entire thread before you make such accusations. So please do the community a favor and stop trolling, or post some relavent information or discussion in a decent manner.

The point is NO ONE wants to be left out. We seem to all agree there needs to be some sort of balance, and that seems to sum up the discussion. Some want group play, but understand soloers/casuals players stance, and vice-a-versa.


I've stated multiple times that I simply "believe" this is where the game is headed.

I'm not comparing my situation to yours, what I said was that for every one of you parents like yourself, there's many more younger versions without kids who CAN put themselves in your previous situation.

How will you be left out if you still get to have a solo/casual friendly experience? Edit - edited post to remove offensive statement, not try to offend anyone (well, except one)

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 6:33pm by KnocturnalOne


I will be shocked if someone can honestly put themselves in my situation right now, and TBH, I really don't want to discuss that.

One other poster stated that it's possible that once group cohesion is implemented that maybe it won't stop there, possible restructure of game (since that is what the polls said) will stopI the solo play all together, or possible the solo play will be left in, and just not treated as equally as the group cohesion. What I mean by that is, that the group play will become so popular, that the solo stuff could not be developed any further while grouping things would be.

Again, I don't want anyone group to be left out. I am hoping that the extreme changes that many voted on are very thoughtful and balanced, so it could appeal to all.
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#242 Jan 24 2011 at 6:08 PM Rating: Good
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
sideways wrote:
wrongfeifong wrote:
I think FFXIV needs the old "team and get go" grinding style.

+1
But they wound need to address that FFXIV is the only MMORPG i know of where you cannot rest for Mana...
I miss the 3 hours of PT grinding. 3 hr of solo grinding = Smiley: oyvey but it was always fun in a group!


You run out of mana? For serious?

FFFFFed if I want to sit on my **** again now that I know the joy of nearly infinite MP.


A lover of Stygian Spikes and Siphon MP in AoE mode, obviously :p

In regards to the old leveling style - I liked that style of play, yet also hated the fact that SP was entirely random in that you could get 0 or 500SP for the mobs you killed along with your party. No talking during the however long grind? Absolutely, unless you got KOed or were chatting in Linkshells, since everyone was hellbent on SP. Behests? No one went for them because SP was gained through the party grind.

With the new, set SP system, I feel as though I've gone back to Ragnarok Online, which I enjoyed for a few years. I like the ease that newer players have to reach Physical 50 through combat now, as opposed to crafting, but party SP is now determined by the number of mobs you can kill in as little time as possible. Behests probably illustrate my experience with RO - target and pull one group of mobs, then AoE them to bits, only you have more people supporting you, gain the little SP per mob, knowing it's 0.01% of a rank, and move on.

If there was a hybrid of the two systems, I'd probably go exploring with a party more :-)
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#243 Jan 24 2011 at 6:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:

You're pretty easy to annoy. You do realize that almost every time someone has been butthurt because their dinosaur pipe dreams got shot down in a discussion, the typical response in a last desperate gasp to cling to a bad idea has been, "Well...well...YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO!!"


I dunno - I don't see anywhere in the producer's letter where he says solo content is broken and that is what he is going to work on. From what I quoted above, Yoshi-P agrees with the pro-grouping crowd.

I don't think they will make soloing suck more (why would they?) they are just going to make partying better. It is right there in the list - improving SP gains for parties - I don't see how wanting to play with others in a massive multiplayer game... in a series like Final Fantasy which has pretty much always been about grouping is a "dinosaur pipe dream" - and the evidence seems to be clear that the development team thinks that group play is one of the things this game needs. I would agree.

There is already a road for soloing/duoing to 50. Now we need other things. Honestly - if people want to solo to cap can't they do it in like almost every other MMO out there?
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#244 Jan 24 2011 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
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LillithaFenimore wrote:


Again, I don't want anyone group to be left out. I am hoping that the extreme changes that many voted on are very thoughtful and balanced, so it could appeal to all.


Agreed. Honestly - I can't see this development team being willing to alienate ANYONE right now.

That said - for those who will be alienated just because party play is made viable (aka better SP once they get going than soloing) - they're the type of people that can't be happy unless others are miserable, so there isn't much the dev. team can do to make things better for them.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#245 Jan 24 2011 at 6:14 PM Rating: Default
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

You're pretty easy to annoy. You do realize that almost every time someone has been butthurt because their dinosaur pipe dreams got shot down in a discussion, the typical response in a last desperate gasp to cling to a bad idea has been, "Well...well...YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO!!"


I dunno - I don't see anywhere in the producer's letter where he says solo content is broken and that is what he is going to work on. From what I quoted above, Yoshi-P agrees with the pro-grouping crowd.

I don't think they will make soloing suck more (why would they?) they are just going to make partying better. It is right there in the list - improving SP gains for parties - I don't see how wanting to play with others in a massive multiplayer game... in a series like Final Fantasy which has pretty much always been about grouping is a "dinosaur pipe dream" - and the evidence seems to be clear that the development team thinks that group play is one of the things this game needs. I would agree.

There is already a road for soloing/duoing to 50. Now we need other things. Honestly - if people want to solo to cap can't they do it in like almost every other MMO out there?


Exactly. It all boils down to what potential/current/ex players envisioned the game to be. The reality is, even though SE wanted FFXIV to be very different from FFXI, the playerbase's vision was a true successor to FFXI. SE now realizes that, and I firmly believe Yoshida realizes that. Unfortunately, some of you don't adapt to change very well. I think we need some "who moved my cheese" training in here.

http://www.whomovedmycheese.com/?gclid=CM-9udmK1KYCFQQ65QodsSZJJQ

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 7:19pm by KnocturnalOne
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#246 Jan 24 2011 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Ostia wrote:
You have to actually go to said dungeons for them to be unlocked in the LFG tool, do you have an idea as to what you are talking bout ? or do you just make BS comment's and hope they pass for fact's ?


Uh... no. You don't.

Don't believe me? Level a character to 15-20+ and then open up the dungeon finder.

The only time you have to walk to them is if you die inside. I can't count the number of times post LFG tool I've had someone die in BRD or Maraudon or BFD or Scholomance or something and have no clue how to get there.

For someone accusing someone else of trying to "make BS comment's and hope they pass for fact's" [sic], you turn around and do the same thing.

Also, an apostrophe is for contractions or possessives. It does not mean "here comes an S!"

EDIT: Faster proof, since leveling to 15-20 takes too long: Create a death knight. Open queue. Look at dungeons.

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 5:35pm by Mikhalia


"Points at Cataclysm"



What about it? I quit back in April because I was unwilling to go through the same hamster wheel of "replace your purples with greens and blues" and then replacing my purples with more purples in new raids every time one was introduced. Are you telling me that Cataclysm actually made it so that you have to go to the dungeons before you can queue for them now?

Actually, you know what? Scratch all that. There's an easy way to figure this out.

I just logged on to my fiancee's level 29 Undead warlock. I have the ability to queue for Gnomeregan and Stormwind Stockades and I know FOR A FACT that she has never physically been to either, due to lack of map exploration, and having asked her to confirm. She doesn't even know where Gnomeregan -is- besides "It's near Ironforge, right?"

So yeah. Why are you pointing at Cataclysm?

EDIT: Ah, I see. So it looks like, for Cataclysm dungeons, and ONLY Cataclysm dungeons, you actually have to discover them first. For Vanilla/BC/LK, you can queue and go and never need to actually physically discover them.

Perhaps if they extended this feature to ALL dungeons then you'd be right, but it seems like what you said only applies to a small amount of dungeons.

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 7:23pm by Mikhalia
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#247 Jan 24 2011 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I dunno - I don't see anywhere in the producer's letter where he says solo content is broken and that is what he is going to work on. From what I quoted above, Yoshi-P agrees with the pro-grouping crowd.


Sure, but I think the cognitive dissonance that Aurelius is attempting to address is that, once it's fixed, both progression paths will probably remain on equal footing, with soloing perhaps maintaining a slight lead because it's by far the dominant style in the market.

Quote:
I don't think they will make soloing suck more (why would they?) they are just going to make partying better. It is right there in the list - improving SP gains for parties - I don't see how wanting to play with others in a massive multiplayer game... in a series like Final Fantasy which has pretty much always been about grouping is a "dinosaur pipe dream" - and the evidence seems to be clear that the development team thinks that group play is one of the things this game needs. I would agree.


I think the "pipe dream" is that SE, a multinational corporation, wants to make a game that caters to a niche audience. Let's repeat that:

"Square-Enix, a multinational corporation, wants to make a game that caters to a niche audience.

Does that sound like the kind of thing a large business would do? I don't believe so.

In any event, given how events have transpired since last September, I would say that was never the case. The "pipe dream" isn't referring to fixes to the current problem with grouping.

Quote:
There is already a road for soloing/duoing to 50. Now we need other things. Honestly - if people want to solo to cap can't they do it in like almost every other MMO out there?


How many of those are Final Fantasy games? FFXIV is barely a game right now, so I wouldn't count it.
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#248 Jan 24 2011 at 6:32 PM Rating: Default
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

You're pretty easy to annoy. You do realize that almost every time someone has been butthurt because their dinosaur pipe dreams got shot down in a discussion, the typical response in a last desperate gasp to cling to a bad idea has been, "Well...well...YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO!!"


I dunno - I don't see anywhere in the producer's letter where he says solo content is broken and that is what he is going to work on. From what I quoted above, Yoshi-P agrees with the pro-grouping crowd.

I don't think they will make soloing suck more (why would they?) they are just going to make partying better. It is right there in the list - improving SP gains for parties - I don't see how wanting to play with others in a massive multiplayer game... in a series like Final Fantasy which has pretty much always been about grouping is a "dinosaur pipe dream" - and the evidence seems to be clear that the development team thinks that group play is one of the things this game needs. I would agree.

There is already a road for soloing/duoing to 50. Now we need other things. Honestly - if people want to solo to cap can't they do it in like almost every other MMO out there?


So, let me see if I understand. I'm talking about why group grinding on solo mobs doesn't work, and why tuning mobs for groups and then mixing them in with mobs solo players are going to be fighting is a bad idea. Then you come back suggesting I'm saying the developers have said solo content is broken? What?

You're missing the point. You can't just do whatever the **** you want with an MMO. You have to stop and consider BIG PICTURE what ALL of your decisions are going to do to the game. And you folks don't do that. At all. You think what you want and then all of a sudden it's possible and should be done even though it's not possible and isn't done for a reason. FFS...broaden your mind and come up with something that actually WORKS instead of arguing for weeks/months/years for **** that can't happen. That's all I'm saying. Don't twist it. Don't confuse it. Think ffs.
#249 Jan 24 2011 at 6:34 PM Rating: Default
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
Exactly. It all boils down to what potential/current/ex players envisioned the game to be. The reality is, even though SE wanted FFXIV to be very different from FFXI, the playerbase's vision was a true successor to FFXI. SE now realizes that, and I firmly believe Yoshida realizes that. Unfortunately, some of you don't adapt to change very well. I think we need some "who moved my cheese" training in here.


The playerbase's vision wasn't for a "true successor to FFXI." That's the vision of what's LEFT of the playerbase after the majority of players who wanted something different stopped playing.
#250 Jan 24 2011 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:


So, let me see if I understand. I'm talking about why group grinding on solo mobs doesn't work, and why tuning mobs for groups and then mixing them in with mobs solo players are going to be fighting is a bad idea. Then you come back suggesting I'm saying the developers have said solo content is broken? What?

You're missing the point. You can't just do whatever the @#%^ you want with an MMO. You have to stop and consider BIG PICTURE what ALL of your decisions are going to do to the game. And you folks don't do that. At all. You think what you want and then all of a sudden it's possible and should be done even though it's not possible and isn't done for a reason. FFS...broaden your mind and come up with something that actually WORKS instead of arguing for weeks/months/years for sh*t that can't happen. That's all I'm saying. Don't twist it. Don't confuse it. Think ffs.


You've just summed up exactly what you need to do. To realize that they completely broke many basic mechanics that made FFXI successful. And rather than build upon them, they rebuilt from the ground up. Not a good move, and it's evident. You just don't see it that way.
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#251 Jan 24 2011 at 6:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Campaign and FoV were both incredibly popular in XI, despite being vastly inferior in terms of EXP/H to a classic party.

The response for both those systems was very positive overall. I sincerely doubt SE wouldn't learn from that and remove the ability to solo from XIV. If anything they'll make it so the gap between both play styles isn't as wide.
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