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#252 Jan 24 2011 at 7:05 PM Rating: Decent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
Aurelius wrote:


So, let me see if I understand. I'm talking about why group grinding on solo mobs doesn't work, and why tuning mobs for groups and then mixing them in with mobs solo players are going to be fighting is a bad idea. Then you come back suggesting I'm saying the developers have said solo content is broken? What?

You're missing the point. You can't just do whatever the @#%^ you want with an MMO. You have to stop and consider BIG PICTURE what ALL of your decisions are going to do to the game. And you folks don't do that. At all. You think what you want and then all of a sudden it's possible and should be done even though it's not possible and isn't done for a reason. FFS...broaden your mind and come up with something that actually WORKS instead of arguing for weeks/months/years for sh*t that can't happen. That's all I'm saying. Don't twist it. Don't confuse it. Think ffs.


You've just summed up exactly what you need to do. To realize that they completely broke many basic mechanics that made FFXI successful. And rather than build upon them, they rebuilt from the ground up. Not a good move, and it's evident. You just don't see it that way.


They didn't break the mechanics that made FFXI successful. They tried to incorporate mechanics that made other MMOs successful but they made a mess of it. There's a difference. They tried to update their gaming model to more contemporary standards and they failed. You think it would be a good move for them to make the game even worse by reverting to dated mechanics that are only going to alienate even more of their players? Good luck with that.
#253 Jan 24 2011 at 7:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:

The playerbase's vision wasn't for a "true successor to FFXI." That's the vision of what's LEFT of the playerbase after the majority of players who wanted something different stopped playing.


NO. Yoshi-P is reacting to what the people who responded to the poll (people who bought the game and entered their code) have said - lots of those people are not currently playing.

Man, I generally respect you, but I don't think you can claim that you know more than any one of us in this situation. You know what your preferences are - you know what your beliefs are - but you don't know anything better or more insightfully than we do.

The evidence points to the fact that people who bought this game expected a game where you can party and get rewards worth the effort (like XI). I know I expected that. I know Mikhalia expected that... I am sure if you talked to anyone in my LS they would probably say they expected that.

Remembering back to the forums before release I think the general expectation was a game where soloing wouldn't be punished as harshly as pre-wings XI - but where grouping would still be needed. Don't you remember all the threads where we theorized about how DoL/DoH would fit into parties? Why would we even think about that if we didn't expect that partying would be rewarded in this game?

That brings me to another point - two of the disciplines are already pretty much entirely solo based - DoL and DoH.

That alone means that tipping the balance in favour of partying on DoW/DoM would not actually remove much in terms of soloable content.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#254 Jan 24 2011 at 7:16 PM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
Quanta wrote:


I think the "pipe dream" is that SE, a multinational corporation, wants to make a game that caters to a niche audience. Let's repeat that:

"Square-Enix, a multinational corporation, wants to make a game that caters to a niche audience.

Does that sound like the kind of thing a large business would do? I don't believe so.


Yeah, actually, I do think that sounds like the kind of thing a large business would do. When is the last time you bought an industrial power supply? Oh, never? Pretty much no ordinary person is going to buy an industrial power supply or a solar array - but some of the biggest companies in the world make these "niche" products.

A niche doesn't actually mean "small" in terms of the ability for companies to profit. Indeed, if that niche has not been exploited - there is often much more money to be made by targeting a niche because you will not have to fend off competitors who are not offering what you have.

At this point a niche game is probably the very best XIV can be. Maybe they tried to make this game more than that - but they failed in a horrible way - so their best option is to please their loyal customers. Yoshi-P pretty much admitted this was the route they are taking when he talked about how many players came from XI.

Quanta wrote:


Quote:
There is already a road for soloing/duoing to 50. Now we need other things. Honestly - if people want to solo to cap can't they do it in like almost every other MMO out there?


How many of those are Final Fantasy games? FFXIV is barely a game right now, so I wouldn't count it.


And your point is? Is there some rule that says every game series has to put out an MMO that wildly diverges from the core mechanics that their fans love about the series?
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#255 Jan 24 2011 at 7:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

The playerbase's vision wasn't for a "true successor to FFXI." That's the vision of what's LEFT of the playerbase after the majority of players who wanted something different stopped playing.


NO. Yoshi-P is reacting to what the people who responded to the poll (people who bought the game and entered their code) have said - lots of those people are not currently playing.

Man, I generally respect you, but I don't think you can claim that you know more than any one of us in this situation. You know what your preferences are - you know what your beliefs are - but you don't know anything better or more insightfully than we do.

The evidence points to the fact that people who bought this game expected a game where you can party and get rewards worth the effort (like XI). I know I expected that. I know Mikhalia expected that... I am sure if you talked to anyone in my LS they would probably say they expected that.

Remembering back to the forums before release I think the general expectation was a game where soloing wouldn't be punished as harshly as pre-wings XI - but where grouping would still be needed. Don't you remember all the threads where we theorized about how DoL/DoH would fit into parties? Why would we even think about that if we didn't expect that partying would be rewarded in this game?

That brings me to another point - two of the disciplines are already pretty much entirely solo based - DoL and DoH.

That alone means that tipping the balance in favour of partying on DoW/DoM would not actually remove much in terms of soloable content.


Olorinus, you and I clearly see eye to eye on this. The evidence is clear, Yoshida has clearly said it himself. Not sure why others aren't getting the same message - sometimes it's like we're all reading something different.


____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#256 Jan 24 2011 at 7:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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9,526 posts
KnocturnalOne wrote:


Olorinus, you and I clearly see eye to eye on this. The evidence is clear, Yoshida has clearly said it himself. Not sure why others aren't getting the same message - sometimes it's like we're all reading something different.



Some people like the way things are and are afraid of change. Some people believe they know what will work and what is "outdated" and what "the majority wants" and think we are thick for suggesting something that runs counter to that.

I am afraid of change in some ways too. However - the vast majority of people who cared enough to fill out the survey said they want change.

This game is party unfriendly and solo friendly now. It is not crazy to assume they would work on fixing parties - especially when they outright SAID they are fixing parties.

I don't think we will see the pull-grind party style that was dominant in XI - and frankly - I dig roaming, so I hope they don't bring that back... but don't get it when people claim partying is a dinosaur mechanic... in ONLINE games. Like, really? Are you serious? People honestly think that working with other people is an outdated mechanic... in ONLINE games?
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#257 Jan 24 2011 at 7:31 PM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Ostia wrote:
You have to actually go to said dungeons for them to be unlocked in the LFG tool, do you have an idea as to what you are talking bout ? or do you just make BS comment's and hope they pass for fact's ?


Uh... no. You don't.

Don't believe me? Level a character to 15-20+ and then open up the dungeon finder.

The only time you have to walk to them is if you die inside. I can't count the number of times post LFG tool I've had someone die in BRD or Maraudon or BFD or Scholomance or something and have no clue how to get there.

For someone accusing someone else of trying to "make BS comment's and hope they pass for fact's" [sic], you turn around and do the same thing.

Also, an apostrophe is for contractions or possessives. It does not mean "here comes an S!"

EDIT: Faster proof, since leveling to 15-20 takes too long: Create a death knight. Open queue. Look at dungeons.

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 5:35pm by Mikhalia


"Points at Cataclysm"



What about it? I quit back in April because I was unwilling to go through the same hamster wheel of "replace your purples with greens and blues" and then replacing my purples with more purples in new raids every time one was introduced. Are you telling me that Cataclysm actually made it so that you have to go to the dungeons before you can queue for them now?

Actually, you know what? Scratch all that. There's an easy way to figure this out.

I just logged on to my fiancee's level 29 Undead warlock. I have the ability to queue for Gnomeregan and Stormwind Stockades and I know FOR A FACT that she has never physically been to either, due to lack of map exploration, and having asked her to confirm. She doesn't even know where Gnomeregan -is- besides "It's near Ironforge, right?"

So yeah. Why are you pointing at Cataclysm?

EDIT: Ah, I see. So it looks like, for Cataclysm dungeons, and ONLY Cataclysm dungeons, you actually have to discover them first. For Vanilla/BC/LK, you can queue and go and never need to actually physically discover them.

Perhaps if they extended this feature to ALL dungeons then you'd be right, but it seems like what you said only applies to a small amount of dungeons.

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 7:23pm by Mikhalia


It applies to the current end game content, and the only content that really meters right now, and that's how it's gonna work from now on, and more on point, the LFG tool came around by the mid/end of WOTLK, to say MOST players dont know where the dungeons are is a flat out lie, since before that you had to phisically walk there and summon somebody or something, that was my point :)

BTW: Props to your fiancee for picking horde XD!
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#258 Jan 24 2011 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Let's continue on with the discussion here, shall we? Let's start by quoting a few things Yoshi P has said recently.

Yoshi P @ SE wrote:


The majority of FINAL FANTASY XIV players polled have a history of playing FINAL FANTASY XI, which is a result we here at Square Enix were certainly happy to see. To us, this serves to illustrate the loyalty and passion of FINAL FANTASY fans, and both the development and management teams were truly moved by this result!

This also tells us that the majority of responses to questions dealing with gameplay (from 5 onward) are the opinions of players with experience playing FINAL FANTASY XI. And so it will be operating under that premise that we will be examining the poll responses.


This clearly indicates that FFXI players are at the heart of disappointment in FFXIV. They are saying that with this data, they will be using this as a premise of how to move forward. Let's continue onward...

Yoshi P @ SE wrote:


Much as we expected, the vast majority of players are spending most of their play time engaged in battle-oriented content, with synthesis activities coming in second. I cannot help but be concerned over the 4.6% result for socializing. This leads me to believe that in its current state, the game is lacking group-oriented goals and means of communication. Rest assured we will be addressing this issue together with the battle system.



Clearly, the battle system is what people do mostly, and since they're mostly FFXI players, it's obvious they preferred an FFXI style system requiring more emphasis on party play.

Yoshi-P @ SE wrote:


This is something I haven't revealed before, but I believe we focused too much on FFXIV being different from FFXI. Making everything original isn't necessarily correct, I think.



So, based on all of that, that's why I believe Yoshi-P understands that the formula for FFXI needs to return (to a degree) and I for one am completely happy for.

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 8:48pm by KnocturnalOne

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 8:53pm by KnocturnalOne
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#259 Jan 24 2011 at 7:47 PM Rating: Decent
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2,202 posts
@ Olorinus and knockturnal

You guys seem to be missing the BIG point, wish is that this game will not, can not, and is not, going to survive with the current player base Period. SE must target the big casual audience if the hope for their game to survive, and eventually turn a profit, and for them to try and turn things around so that party play is as good or better than solo play, resources would need to be diverted from somewhere, and right now, they need to keep all their staff and resources on fixing this sinking ship :)

Just remember, Casual solo friendly = BIG BUCKS!
Must have party in order to GRIND = Loose of revenue!
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#260 Jan 24 2011 at 7:51 PM Rating: Decent
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447 posts
Ostia wrote:
@ Olorinus and knockturnal

You guys seem to be missing the BIG point, wish is that this game will not, can not, and is not, going to survive with the current player base Period. SE must target the big casual audience if the hope for their game to survive, and eventually turn a profit, and for them to try and turn things around so that party play is as good or better than solo play, resources would need to be diverted from somewhere, and right now, they need to keep all their staff and resources on fixing this sinking ship :)

Just remember, Casual solo friendly = BIG BUCKS!
Must have party in order to GRIND = Loose of revenue!


I'm not missing that point. You're totally correct, they can't survive with the current playerbase & they need to re-acquire the former FFXI fans who already quit the game. They know this, and right now that's their best chance to gain subscribers. Again, the way things look right now, I bet SE would be happy to have the niche audience that FFXI has/had. They aren't aiming for WoW #'s here dude.
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#261 Jan 24 2011 at 7:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Yeah, actually, I do think that sounds like the kind of thing a large business would do. When is the last time you bought an industrial power supply? Oh, never? Pretty much no ordinary person is going to buy an industrial power supply or a solar array - but some of the biggest companies in the world make these "niche" products.


I'm finding this concept difficult to process. You're comparing a creator of consumer products, of ENTERTAINMENT products--you know, **** that Joe Average would buy--to industrial parts ******************* that businesses buy.

I'm not sure what to think anymore.
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#262 Jan 24 2011 at 7:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Quanta wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Yeah, actually, I do think that sounds like the kind of thing a large business would do. When is the last time you bought an industrial power supply? Oh, never? Pretty much no ordinary person is going to buy an industrial power supply or a solar array - but some of the biggest companies in the world make these "niche" products.


I'm finding this concept difficult to process. You're comparing a creator of consumer products, of ENTERTAINMENT products--you know, sh*t that Joe Average would buy--to industrial parts manufacturers--sh*t that businesses buy.

I'm not sure what to think anymore.


He's talking about scalability/volume of a product or service, in his example a Pay-to-Play game as opposed to a product, and that it doesn't need to be mass produced in order for it to be profitable.

Make sense?
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#263 Jan 24 2011 at 8:03 PM Rating: Decent
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2,202 posts
KnocturnalOne wrote:
Ostia wrote:
@ Olorinus and knockturnal

You guys seem to be missing the BIG point, wish is that this game will not, can not, and is not, going to survive with the current player base Period. SE must target the big casual audience if the hope for their game to survive, and eventually turn a profit, and for them to try and turn things around so that party play is as good or better than solo play, resources would need to be diverted from somewhere, and right now, they need to keep all their staff and resources on fixing this sinking ship :)

Just remember, Casual solo friendly = BIG BUCKS!
Must have party in order to GRIND = Loose of revenue!


I'm not missing that point. You're totally correct, they can't survive with the current playerbase & they need to re-acquire the former FFXI fans who already quit the game. They know this, and right now that's their best chance to gain subscribers. Again, the way things look right now, I bet SE would be happy to have the niche audience that FFXI has/had. They aren't aiming for WoW #'s here dude.


Their best chance to success is to try and gain subs from a niche ****** that never broke 1mil subs, and is stuck 1998 ? Or to fix this game, and actually deliver on their promise of a NEW GAME where the target audience was the casual market ?

Let me see, they can either hope they gain from 60-100k they have right now, up to 300-500k that FFXI had, or they can go from 60-100K to 1mil, 2mil, 3mil, 4mil, 5mil etc etc ?

That's a hard one right there, oh my what might SE Do?
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#264 Jan 24 2011 at 8:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
Ostia wrote:
It applies to the current end game content, and the only content that really meters right now, and that's how it's gonna work from now on, and more on point, the LFG tool came around by the mid/end of WOTLK, to say MOST players dont know where the dungeons are is a flat out lie, since before that you had to phisically walk there and summon somebody or something, that was my point :)

BTW: Props to your fiancee for picking horde XD!


Yeah, but my point was that it only applies to the current expansion's content. New players who joined after the LFG tool was added are still never required to learn the locations of any dungeons prior to Cata. If anything, this is actually a really dumb idea because new players will go through 80 levels of free ports until all of the sudden "WTF? I have to FIND the dungeon first? OMFG BLIZZ SUXXX" and there will be whining and wailing and QQing until Blizzard removes that requirement.

Honestly though, between giving hunters a pet earlier or giving rogues dual wield to start with or decreasing the mounts from 40/60 to 20/40 and all the other sweeping stuff that Blizz has done over the years, I'm genuinely surprised that they'd actually make this requirement. I'd be doubly surprised if said requirement was not lifted before the next expansion though, for the reason mentioned above.

Think back to all the stuff that has been changed; attunements removed, quest requirements obsoleted... I heard that keys are no longer required to enter SM-Arm/Cath or Strat/Scholo and the back part of BRD but I can't vouch for any of these; it's just what I was told so some or all of these may be wrong. At any rate, I've seen so many changes to the game that a feature that actually requires people to DO SOMETHING is just flabbergasting.

Personally, I think they SHOULD have extended that feature to EVERY dungeon; that you have to physically enter it once before you can queue for it or be assigned there via random. I'm sure that a lot of people will disagree and think I'm an @#%^ though.

And she and I both have (Well... -had- in my case) Horde and Alliance characters, so don't get too excited :)

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 9:06pm by Mikhalia
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#265 Jan 24 2011 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
Quanta wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Yeah, actually, I do think that sounds like the kind of thing a large business would do. When is the last time you bought an industrial power supply? Oh, never? Pretty much no ordinary person is going to buy an industrial power supply or a solar array - but some of the biggest companies in the world make these "niche" products.


I'm finding this concept difficult to process. You're comparing a creator of consumer products, of ENTERTAINMENT products--you know, sh*t that Joe Average would buy--to industrial parts manufacturers--sh*t that businesses buy.

I'm not sure what to think anymore.


He's talking about scalability/volume of a product or service, in his example a Pay-to-Play game as opposed to a product, and that it doesn't need to be mass produced in order for it to be profitable.

Make sense?


A little bit. I guess my concern is whether FFXI fans alone are sufficient enough in number to give SE a timely ROI and generate said profit. You guys seem to be confident that it will.
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#266 Jan 24 2011 at 8:12 PM Rating: Good
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447 posts
Quanta wrote:


A little bit. I guess my concern is whether FFXI fans alone are sufficient enough in number to give SE a timely ROI and generate said profit. You guys seem to be confident that it will.


Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say that I'm confident, but I think it's probably the smarter play given the evidence/feedback they have to work with.
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#267 Jan 24 2011 at 8:12 PM Rating: Decent
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11,576 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

The playerbase's vision wasn't for a "true successor to FFXI." That's the vision of what's LEFT of the playerbase after the majority of players who wanted something different stopped playing.


NO. Yoshi-P is reacting to what the people who responded to the poll (people who bought the game and entered their code) have said - lots of those people are not currently playing.

Man, I generally respect you, but I don't think you can claim that you know more than any one of us in this situation. You know what your preferences are - you know what your beliefs are - but you don't know anything better or more insightfully than we do.


Then what you need to be able to do is intelligently discuss just how you're going to make group tuned mobs work alongside solo tuned mobs without ruining the experience for solo players or making it just oh-so-lame for groups by making none of the group tuned mobs aggressive. That's the issue. And if you can manage that without drifting off to things that are unrelated, so much the better. While all of you are waxing nostalgic about XI, what you need to realize is that those of us who went on to different games between XI and XIV were often treated to developers who would actually explain why they were doing what they were doing on a regular basis. And when you get an opportunity to see things from a developer's point of view, they actually start to make sense.

When players talk about "most players", they're talking about their sphere of association. They're talking about what they see within their line of sight in the game and they're talking about what they read on forums. When a developer talks about "most", they're usually talking hard numbers that they've polled from the servers that say this area isn't seeing a lot of use or this type of mob is avoided or ignored or the number of groups in this specific zone or area is low compared to that one. And when you've been around when developers share their insights based on that information, you get a bit more of an informed point of view than someone who simply says, "Well, this is what I like and a lot of people I talk to think it would be good too, therefore it's a good idea."

I'm not saying there shouldn't be things for groups to do. And I'm not saying that the generic concept of providing more group content would ruin solo play. What I AM saying is that the FFXIV game world could not support group grinding on generic mobs right now without a MAJOR overhaul to game systems. And if you're a developer who has a choice between overhauling to support a dull concept like group grinding or actually developing event and/or goal oriented content, which are you going to pick? Which is going to create a bigger draw? A 10 year old concept that appeals to a small niche of potential subscribers? No. Not a chance.

Generic grinding is the bottom rung of content. Imagine a developer who said, "Here's your open world, here are your generic mobs. They respawn. Fly at 'er. We're done our part." 10 years ago they might be able to make a go of it. Not anymore. Most people expect more. Actually, most people demand more. You're looking at group grinding in FFXI...a game that was conceived and tuned from the ground up to be group centric. Adding in that solo dimension changes things entirely. It's not simply a matter of adding mobs. It's not a matter of tweaking SP gains. There's a LOT more to it than that.

Quote:
The evidence points to the fact that people who bought this game expected a game where you can party and get rewards worth the effort (like XI). I know I expected that. I know Mikhalia expected that... I am sure if you talked to anyone in my LS they would probably say they expected that.


The evidence points to the fact that players feel the group content is inadequate. Nothing more, nothing less. That doesn't mean it's time for SE to cop out and throw in trash systems just to keep the nichiest of niches happy.

Quote:
Remembering back to the forums before release I think the general expectation was a game where soloing wouldn't be punished as harshly as pre-wings XI - but where grouping would still be needed. Don't you remember all the threads where we theorized about how DoL/DoH would fit into parties? Why would we even think about that if we didn't expect that partying would be rewarded in this game?


And do you remember in those threads how I consistently said that DoL/DoH wouldn't fit into parties? That about the extent of DoH/DoL activity in your party would be the guy who came as a combat class but switch to a DoH class to repair something or a DoL class to gather a nearby node? And how all the pie-in-the-sky pipe dreamers were all like, "Ya, it would be so awesome if you would like bring an armorer to your endgame party specifically to repair gear on the fly and have miners dig out the path for your combat party to go do the fun stuff and..." What have we got? Why? Because ya'll didn't think it through. Ya'll didn't look at the big picture and how phenomenally @#%^ing boring it would be for a crafter or a miner to stand around for an hour doing one thing every few minutes to support the people actually doing something fun. YOU guys couldn't put two and two together and see what a ridiculous bloody idea it was but you insisted...nono..."You don't know that!!"

Apparently I did.

So now maybe SE is going to incorporate some sort of crafter activity in some sort of event as part of the overall "theme park". Or they'll have destructible things made out of rock that miners have to clear or things made of wood that beastmen knock down that botanists have to clear and you know what? Those people would probably STILL not be in your party. They might well be in the AREA of your party, but they're not going to be IN your party. Imagine a besieged-like event with something for everyone, not just the combat classes. Does that mean DoH and DoL have a role in your party? No. But that was apparently a very complicating thing for people to understand.

Quote:
That brings me to another point - two of the disciplines are already pretty much entirely solo based - DoL and DoH.

That alone means that tipping the balance in favour of partying on DoW/DoM would not actually remove much in terms of soloable content.


You're bouncing back and forth between the generic concept of more group content...which I support...and group grinding for SP...which I think would be lame. Please just pick one line and stick with it. SE is not going to gut the existing solo aspects of the game to favor group content. They'd be bloody retarded to do so. "We have viable (boring, but viable) solo play that, if we fill it out and make it suck a little less would be a big draw, but instead we're going to scrap it for boring-*** group grinds to appeal to a very small niche because we can't tune open world mobs to support both." Brilliant.

They don't need to gut the solo game to make groups happy. They just have to give groups something (ideally, many things) to do, and that doesn't entail dull-*** bottom rung grindfest circa 2002 bullsh*t.

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 6:15pm by Aurelius
#268 Jan 24 2011 at 8:16 PM Rating: Good
Bruknarr wrote:
Campaign and FoV were both incredibly popular in XI, despite being vastly inferior in terms of EXP/H to a classic party.

The response for both those systems was very positive overall. I sincerely doubt SE wouldn't learn from that and remove the ability to solo from XIV. If anything they'll make it so the gap between both play styles isn't as wide.


These were popular because you could solo and LFP while you get XP. (You could actually PT and get good XP gains if you knew where/how...Qufim Island burn comes to mind for FoV...but that was also using a regular PT location just boosting XP by abusing the FoV pages every hour.) I personally spent many an hour in campaign waiting for an invite. Of course the occasional money drop from a campaign battle was just icing on the cake.
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#269 Jan 24 2011 at 8:17 PM Rating: Good
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447 posts
Oh, and another statement from Yoshi-P indicating he's wanting to bring back that old feeling back (it was in the same interview with Famitsu

Yoshi-P @ SE wrote:


Next would be the battle system. Eorzea in its current state is way too peaceful. (laughs) I'm thinking of bringing that Final Fantasy essence to the forefront so we have players banding together to face down fearsome enemies.

____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#270 Jan 24 2011 at 8:21 PM Rating: Good
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2,202 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Ostia wrote:
It applies to the current end game content, and the only content that really meters right now, and that's how it's gonna work from now on, and more on point, the LFG tool came around by the mid/end of WOTLK, to say MOST players dont know where the dungeons are is a flat out lie, since before that you had to phisically walk there and summon somebody or something, that was my point :)

BTW: Props to your fiancee for picking horde XD!


Yeah, but my point was that it only applies to the current expansion's content. New players who joined after the LFG tool was added are still never required to learn the locations of any dungeons prior to Cata. If anything, this is actually a really dumb idea because new players will go through 80 levels of free ports until all of the sudden "WTF? I have to FIND the dungeon first? OMFG BLIZZ SUXXX" and there will be whining and wailing and QQing until Blizzard removes that requirement.

Honestly though, between giving hunters a pet earlier or giving rogues dual wield to start with or decreasing the mounts from 40/60 to 20/40 and all the other sweeping stuff that Blizz has done over the years, I'm genuinely surprised that they'd actually make this requirement. I'd be doubly surprised if said requirement was not lifted before the next expansion though, for the reason mentioned above.

Think back to all the stuff that has been changed; attunements removed, quest requirements obsoleted... I heard that keys are no longer required to enter SM-Arm/Cath or Strat/Scholo and the back part of BRD but I can't vouch for any of these; it's just what I was told so some or all of these may be wrong. At any rate, I've seen so many changes to the game that a feature that actually requires people to DO SOMETHING is just flabbergasting.

Personally, I think they SHOULD have extended that feature to EVERY dungeon; that you have to physically enter it once before you can queue for it or be assigned there via random. I'm sure that a lot of people will disagree and think I'm an @#%^ though.

And she and I both have (Well... -had- in my case) Horde and Alliance characters, so don't get too excited :)

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 9:06pm by Mikhalia


I agree in large part with how you feel about most of the change's, they dint extend the feature to every dungeon because they understand their player base, they get the fact, that 95% of WOW players are in the current content, and it would have been a lot more troublesome to extend the requirement to the older istance's, because what if i already went to X or Y but it still dint let me que for it on the LFG ? just like it happened with achivements, many people had to re-do some because the tool dint award a vast majority X or Y Kill of a boss, or a pet, or a mount etc etc.

I think they did it in the smothest way possible, we are gonna release this tool, but from the next xpac foward you need to uncover the dungeons to actually be able to que for them.

As for attunments, hmm mixed feelings on that, i loved BC, hated WOTLK, but some attunements where just annoying and a big time sink IMO
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#271 Jan 24 2011 at 8:24 PM Rating: Decent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
Oh, and another statement from Yoshi-P indicating he's wanting to bring back that old feeling back (it was in the same interview with Famitsu

Yoshi-P @ SE wrote:


Next would be the battle system. Eorzea in its current state is way too peaceful. (laughs) I'm thinking of bringing that Final Fantasy essence to the forefront so we have players banding together to face down fearsome enemies.



I take that to mean that he wants to give groups something to do. Instances, perhaps? BCNMs?
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#272 Jan 24 2011 at 8:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:


And when you get an opportunity to see things from a developer's point of view, they actually start to make sense.



Dude, seriously, are you privy to more interviews and direct interaction with developers any more than us? I seriously doubt it. The difference between you and most people here, is you continue believe that you're interpretation is the only correct interpretation, despite the comments coming directly from the man who matters most right now - Yoshi-P.

Aurelius, I can tell you're not an idiot, you communicate well enough for me to believe you're a rather sound guy. Swallow your pride once, it won't kill you to be wrong. It's one thing that you believe something different than some of us, or your "theories" might be right and ours wrong, but you continue to incessantly spew it out as if you're 100% correct. News Flash - you don't know any better than any of us, no matter how well you think you do.

Furthermore, you continue to ask others to relish in your argument to dissect how SE can code their game to solve the constraints currently presented. I for one can say I am not a game developer, so I cannot get into what they can or can't do no more than you can. You just to need to realize that.

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 9:30pm by KnocturnalOne
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#273 Jan 24 2011 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
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447 posts
Quanta wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
Oh, and another statement from Yoshi-P indicating he's wanting to bring back that old feeling back (it was in the same interview with Famitsu

Yoshi-P @ SE wrote:


Next would be the battle system. Eorzea in its current state is way too peaceful. (laughs) I'm thinking of bringing that Final Fantasy essence to the forefront so we have players banding together to face down fearsome enemies.



I take that to mean that he wants to give groups something to do. Instances, perhaps? BCNMs?


Well, that could be one way. I'm sure he's not only thinking of one possible way to disrupt the peace in Eorzea, but many that collectively draw you in. One way that he has confirmed, as quoted previously, is he will increase SP gained for parties, which means more groups out there fighting mobs!
____________________________
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FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#274 Jan 24 2011 at 8:28 PM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Yeah, but my point was that it only applies to the current expansion's content. New players who joined after the LFG tool was added are still never required to learn the locations of any dungeons prior to Cata. If anything, this is actually a really dumb idea because new players will go through 80 levels of free ports until all of the sudden "WTF? I have to FIND the dungeon first? OMFG BLIZZ SUXXX" and there will be whining and wailing and QQing until Blizzard removes that requirement.


Hold on now, let's just make sure I'm clear on what you're saying. To your way of thinking, it's more important for players to know where the entrance to the dungeon is than it is for them to have ready access to that content? Because it seems like that's what you're saying. Can you see how maybe that might come across as a little bit nit-picky and ****? I mean, to you that might be important. And I can say without any hesitation that it's important to me, too. I like to know where things are. But Bob may not give a ****. And if Bob can contribute to the group, I don't give a **** that he doesn't give a ****. That's his deal. That's his $15/month. I didn't join a group looking for a navigator. I joined looking for someone who could contribute to a successful clear.

But here we have a system that offers all these wonderful benefits, that makes grouping so much more accessible and approachable that people were (and apparently still are) running dungeons in record numbers. This system that got Blizzard relentless praise for how much "better" it made the game. This system that virtually everyone started using from day one because it took out one of the biggest, most tedious, irritating aspects of the game and BAM! Squared away. Big barrier gone. And all I see you talk about is, "Oh, now it's harder to make friends" and "Oh, some guy might not learn where the entrance is so it's bad."

Just...c'mon. Now you've got your two months to figure it out. Carry on, then.
#275 Jan 24 2011 at 8:30 PM Rating: Default
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
Aurelius wrote:


And when you get an opportunity to see things from a developer's point of view, they actually start to make sense.



Dude, seriously, are you privy to more interviews and direct interaction with developers any more than us? I seriously doubt it. The difference between you and most people here, is you continue believe that you're interpretation is the only correct interpretation, despite the comments coming directly from the man who matters most right now - Yoshi-P.


I've been right way, way more than I've been wrong here. So ya, apparently I've got SOMETHING going on that makes me more knowledgeable than you, now were you going to argue some points of your own like a grown-up or are you just going to duck and hide and come up with a new spin on the, "Well...well...YOU DON'T KNOW FOR SURE!!" line every post?

Quote:
Aurelius, I can tell you're not an idiot, you communicate well enough for me to believe you're a rather sound guy. Swallow your pride once, it won't kill you to be wrong. It's one thing that you believe something different than some of us, or your "theories" might be right and ours wrong, but you continue to incessantly spew it out as if you're 100% correct. News Flash - you don't know any better than any of us, no matter how well you think you do.


I'm not wrong until you prove me wrong and you're not even close so get on it or get off it.
#276 Jan 24 2011 at 8:33 PM Rating: Decent
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447 posts
Aurelius wrote:


I've been right way, way more than I've been wrong here. So ya, apparently I've got SOMETHING going on that makes me more knowledgeable than you, now were you going to argue some points of your own like a grown-up or are you just going to duck and hide and come up with a new spin on the, "Well...well...YOU DON'T KNOW FOR SURE!!" line every post?



WTF are you talking about, I've literally quoted the words from the only person that matters. You continue to ask me to prove something to you when there's nothing left to prove. WTF are you smoking?

Aurelius wrote:


I'm not wrong until you prove me wrong and you're not even close so get on it or get off it.


And you're no more right than me because you can't prove it either. You just can't admit that...cause you're clearly stubborn as a mule right now.
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#277 Jan 24 2011 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
Dude, seriously, are you privy to more interviews and direct interaction with developers any more than us? I seriously doubt it. The difference between you and most people here, is you continue believe that you're interpretation is the only correct interpretation, despite the comments coming directly from the man who matters most right now - Yoshi-P.


I'm guessing that he's read developer interviews, blog posts, news posts, etc. and been able to get insight into the process through that manner. I know I have. It's always educational to read one of Ghostcrawler's blog or forum posts, just like it's educational to have read Yoshi-P's letter.
____________________________
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Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#278 Jan 24 2011 at 8:43 PM Rating: Excellent
The lack of proof of something being right or true, isn't necessarily proof in itself of it being wrong or false. However the same applies in reverse. You can't claim to be right because someone can't prove you wrong. You can't claim someone is wrong because they can't prove they are right. All you can do is agree to disagree. In which case the argument is mute anyway.
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#279 Jan 24 2011 at 8:44 PM Rating: Good
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265 posts
Ostia wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
Ostia wrote:
@ Olorinus and knockturnal

You guys seem to be missing the BIG point, wish is that this game will not, can not, and is not, going to survive with the current player base Period. SE must target the big casual audience if the hope for their game to survive, and eventually turn a profit, and for them to try and turn things around so that party play is as good or better than solo play, resources would need to be diverted from somewhere, and right now, they need to keep all their staff and resources on fixing this sinking ship :)

Just remember, Casual solo friendly = BIG BUCKS!
Must have party in order to GRIND = Loose of revenue!


I'm not missing that point. You're totally correct, they can't survive with the current playerbase & they need to re-acquire the former FFXI fans who already quit the game. They know this, and right now that's their best chance to gain subscribers. Again, the way things look right now, I bet SE would be happy to have the niche audience that FFXI has/had. They aren't aiming for WoW #'s here dude.


Their best chance to success is to try and gain subs from a niche ****** that never broke 1mil subs, and is stuck 1998 ? Or to fix this game, and actually deliver on their promise of a NEW GAME where the target audience was the casual market ?

Let me see, they can either hope they gain from 60-100k they have right now, up to 300-500k that FFXI had, or they can go from 60-100K to 1mil, 2mil, 3mil, 4mil, 5mil etc etc ?

That's a hard one right there, oh my what might SE Do?


If they have any sense, they know to go for the niche, they are clearly the ones who bought the game and are willing to stick around. EVERYONE else is already trying to get a piece of the casual pie....ton apon tons of games, and many of them are failing because there is only so many casuals to try and grab. The game was already quite solo friendly and already failed pretty bad (its also bare bones and pretty broken).

I would much rather try for the niche, its pretty much wide open market, garunteed to get you a good foundation of players (enough to profit). When your game is being looked at by any MMO go-er, they instantly see FFXI and are either turned away or lead straight to it, because that is their past work...so no matter how casual the game is, there will always be tons of people turned away by its past game. SO the obvious choice would be to go for what you already have...the not completely overrun market.

On top of that with the fact that it already has a bad rap, requires a pretty good PC to run, i cant see them even hitting 1mil, that chance is gone. Most people who hop MMOs, or are looking for something new only take their first impression and thats it, so they lost them.


Edited, Jan 24th 2011 9:47pm by zanfire
#280 Jan 24 2011 at 8:45 PM Rating: Default
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
Aurelius wrote:


I've been right way, way more than I've been wrong here. So ya, apparently I've got SOMETHING going on that makes me more knowledgeable than you, now were you going to argue some points of your own like a grown-up or are you just going to duck and hide and come up with a new spin on the, "Well...well...YOU DON'T KNOW FOR SURE!!" line every post?



WTF are you talking about, I've literally quoted the words from the only person that matters. You continue to ask me to prove something to you when there's nothing left to prove. WTF are you smoking?


You haven't quoted a single thing...not ONE THING...that says or even hints at the idea of him bringing back the group grind. NOTHING you've quoted does anything of the sort. Because the one thing you're happily omitting is where the poll results said players want more goal-oriented content. First priority...what do you want? Goal-oriented content, please. Alright. And I see you also feel that grouping is a big pile of **** right now, too. And we agree. We think the SP system is kinda borked, too. So we're going to look into that.

And if you aren't knowledgeable enough to understand what it would require to "bring back" group grinding, you might see it as an easy fix, right? Short term...fix SP to make it worth our while to grind in groups and we'll be cool until you add things that are actually fun, right? That's the plan? "Feed us **** until dinner is ready and we'll be happy"? Can't see the big picture, can you? Can't see what that would do to the game as a whole in order to cater to the vocal minority because I'm pretty sure it was the objective majority of people who took the poll that said they GOAL-ORIENTED content, not grinds, right? You saw that part, yes? And that's not even everyone who bought the game. That's the people who care enough to have actually filled out the poll. So if the FFXI crew...the same people you're speaking on behalf of...list GOAL-ORIENTED content as the #1 thing they want to see, wtf makes you think they'd be happy with linear, crap grinding?

Quote:
Aurelius wrote:


I'm not wrong until you prove me wrong and you're not even close so get on it or get off it.


And you're no more right than me because you can't prove it either. You just can't admit that...cause you're clearly stubborn as a mule right now.


I don't have to prove it. I've got precedence on my side. You don't.
#281 Jan 24 2011 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
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^ its not for sure it will be there (though why not let it be an option?) there was that option pre-SP change, so if they make it so SP is good for groups...its coming back reguardless. Knowing that this game is mostly inhabited by FFXI vets...its likely to be a big thing to.

I don't think Yoshi is specifically saying that he wants it that way (hes being broad, everyone wants options) but its 99% change going to be an option..and one many will use.
#282 Jan 24 2011 at 8:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:

You haven't quoted a single thing...not ONE THING...that says or even hints at the idea of him bringing back the group grind. NOTHING you've quoted does anything of the sort. Because the one thing you're happily omitting is where the poll results said players want more goal-oriented content. First priority...what do you want? Goal-oriented content, please. Alright. And I see you also feel that grouping is a big pile of sh*t right now, too. And we agree. We think the SP system is kinda borked, too. So we're going to look into that.

And if you aren't knowledgeable enough to understand what it would require to "bring back" group grinding, you might see it as an easy fix, right? Short term...fix SP to make it worth our while to grind in groups and we'll be cool until you add things that are actually fun, right? That's the plan? "Feed us sh*t until dinner is ready and we'll be happy"? Can't see the big picture, can you? Can't see what that would do to the game as a whole in order to cater to the vocal minority because I'm pretty sure it was the objective majority of people who took the poll that said they GOAL-ORIENTED content, not grinds, right? You saw that part, yes? And that's not even everyone who bought the game. That's the people who care enough to have actually filled out the poll. So if the FFXI crew...the same people you're speaking on behalf of...list GOAL-ORIENTED content as the #1 thing they want to see, wtf makes you think they'd be happy with linear, crap grinding?

I'm not wrong until you prove me wrong and you're not even close so get on it or get off it.

I don't have to prove it. I've got precedence on my side. You don't.


LMAO, what precedence is that? That for SE, FFXI was way more successful than FFXIV is headed? Oh, and group play was a very close second to content, and just because it was second doesn't mean that the ones who voted for content first, didn't want group play better.


You're so freaking laughable right now!
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FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#283 Jan 24 2011 at 9:13 PM Rating: Default
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I think alot of people skipped over this part of Aurelius's post.

What I AM saying is that the FFXIV game world could not support group grinding on generic mobs right now without a MAJOR overhaul to game systems.

The game system cannot support both now without a Major overhaul...
Yes, it could support both groups if they wanted to redo the entire game from bottom to top but they wont. Solo play is the base of the game pyramid. If you remove it then all of the crap you stacked on top is bound to self destruct.

They could scale the mobs better for parties
They could scale mobs for group # and Difficulty
They could make both mobs exsist in the same zone
They could make SP gain equal for solo, grouping

You cant take a solo oriented game with solo friendly systems and then throw in equal party systems without adjusting the base system to support parties. One of the biggest items in this is the current class system. Without defined roles parties are irrelevant and useless. So what do you want them to do? Change the entire class system? Last i looked the class system is the base of the game. This means the game would have to be redone from step 1 to incorporate equal party systems.

Yoshi may have said they are working on more party based content and a more FFXI feel but that does not mean that partying will become the main source of exploration/content in this game. Sure you may get more defined classes but they will still be based off of the old system. AS long as the "change my role anytime" base system exsists there will always be a more defined solo game than party.

Trying to incorporate both systems would be a major undertaking. Redesign the class system. Balance the classes. Blanace solo/group play. Add tons of content for both. Adjust SP so the Groups/soloers dont whine. Adjust the crafting system due to class changes. Build Mog house, banks, AH to support char changes. Find a system to switch jobs that allows groups to be viable while not hurting soloers. etc etc etc.

I like grinding games and i loved FFXI but i dont see them rebuilding the entire game to support party=solo.
I also have no doubt that they will put in group based dynamis, raids, NMs but partying as a staple wont be there.


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#284 Jan 24 2011 at 9:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Quanta wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
Dude, seriously, are you privy to more interviews and direct interaction with developers any more than us? I seriously doubt it. The difference between you and most people here, is you continue believe that you're interpretation is the only correct interpretation, despite the comments coming directly from the man who matters most right now - Yoshi-P.


I'm guessing that he's read developer interviews, blog posts, news posts, etc. and been able to get insight into the process through that manner. I know I have. It's always educational to read one of Ghostcrawler's blog or forum posts, just like it's educational to have read Yoshi-P's letter.


Some of the LOTRO devs have written really good dev diaries as well. Like this one which is somewhat relevant to this discussion because he's talking about upgrades to their grouping system for instances. If someone hadn't played LOTRO, it might not make a ton of sense. WTF is a fellowship or a skirmish? I do not...

I love that stuff, though. I love reading something from a developer that starts off with "...I’m going to be talking about our <whatever> and explaining what that means, how it works, and giving you a bit of insight into why we made a lot of the decisions we did..." A person reads enough of those and all of a sudden design decisions don't seem quite so black and white. Not every developer is oblivious to what is going on in their games and when they can come out and say, "We made this decision and we knew some people would be unhappy about it but we did it anyways and this is why..."

As opposed to the XI crowd, the majority of whose interaction with the devs prior to Yoshi-P has been, "no plans at this time," and "please look forward to in the future." I'm not saying XI players are stupid. I am saying that someone whose MMO experience has been fully dominated by the XI bubble would do well to take a look around with an objective eye from time to time.
#285 Jan 24 2011 at 9:23 PM Rating: Default
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11,576 posts
KnocturnalOne wrote:
LMAO, what precedence is that? That for SE, FFXI was way more successful than FFXIV is headed? Oh, and group play was a very close second to content, and just because it was second doesn't mean that the ones who voted for content first, didn't want group play better.


You're so freaking laughable right now!


No, precedence in my history here of being right more often than not. And just a related aside, are you aware you have yet to make a reasonable point to support your point of view? Just sayin'. You can take shots at me all day long if that's what you want to do but any rational person is going to take that as an indication that you can't support your opinion. That's just how it works.

I'm right about that, too.
#286 Jan 24 2011 at 9:25 PM Rating: Decent
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You can have the last word, Aurelius. Now go feel good about yourself.
____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#287 Jan 24 2011 at 9:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
Aurelius wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Yeah, but my point was that it only applies to the current expansion's content. New players who joined after the LFG tool was added are still never required to learn the locations of any dungeons prior to Cata. If anything, this is actually a really dumb idea because new players will go through 80 levels of free ports until all of the sudden "WTF? I have to FIND the dungeon first? OMFG BLIZZ SUXXX" and there will be whining and wailing and QQing until Blizzard removes that requirement.


Hold on now, let's just make sure I'm clear on what you're saying. To your way of thinking, it's more important for players to know where the entrance to the dungeon is than it is for them to have ready access to that content? Because it seems like that's what you're saying. Can you see how maybe that might come across as a little bit nit-picky and ****? I mean, to you that might be important. And I can say without any hesitation that it's important to me, too. I like to know where things are. But Bob may not give a sh*t. And if Bob can contribute to the group, I don't give a sh*t that he doesn't give a sh*t. That's his deal. That's his $15/month. I didn't join a group looking for a navigator. I joined looking for someone who could contribute to a successful clear.


I get where you're coming from. You're saying you just want to be able to join a group and you really don't think there should be a requirement to have physically located for someone to group with you. We've discussed gating before and how you're against it and I'm for it.

Yes, I don't see anything wrong with forcing a player to perform a relatively trivial task (locating the entrance to a dungeon before being able to queue for it). I pretty much assumed you'd disagree with me on that, and we're not going to see eye to eye on this one.

Incidentally, what -are- your feelings on the fact that the Cata dungeons require you to locate the dungeon entrance before being able to queue? In your opinion, is this a good idea or a bad move on Blizzard's part? As I've mentioned, I fully expect players to whine about it until they go back on it and remove the requirement, because Blizzard is all about removing all of the effort out of everything they possibly can if enough people ***** about "it's too hard!", but for the time being, I'm curious what your opinion is regarding the fact that Cataclysm dungeons require you to physically locate them before you can queue for them.

Aurelius wrote:
But here we have a system that offers all these wonderful benefits, that makes grouping so much more accessible and approachable that people were (and apparently still are) running dungeons in record numbers. This system that got Blizzard relentless praise for how much "better" it made the game. This system that virtually everyone started using from day one because it took out one of the biggest, most tedious, irritating aspects of the game and BAM! Squared away. Big barrier gone. And all I see you talk about is, "Oh, now it's harder to make friends" and "Oh, some guy might not learn where the entrance is so it's bad."

Just...c'mon. Now you've got your two months to figure it out. Carry on, then.


The first argument: Yes, I'd prefer to play with people on my own server. I get that having people from multiple servers shortens queue times. I get that limiting such a tool to only one server lengthens queue times. I'd rather wait longer and group only with people on my server. Personal preference.

As for the entrance thing, I fully admit that it has less to do with caring whether someone knows where the entrance is and more to do with my desires to see other players put in work to gain access to something; in this case, locate the dungeon in order to be able to queue for it. I'm not even talking about long *** attunement chains to fight Onyxia; I'm just talking about "Physically locate the entrance one time. Boom. Now you can queue for it".

Again, yes, I realize I'm advocating "gating" and you think that any form of gating is terrible. Yes, I expect you to say you disagree. You and I will continue arguing this particular point forever if we really want to go down that road and frankly, I think it's just as much a waste of your time to argue with me as is it a waste of mine to argue with you on this issue.

So in short: Yes. I see absolutely nothing wrong with requiring a player to physically locate the dungeon once before they can queue for it. Nothing at all. Not a **** thing. (EDIT: ****, I'd even be fine with the requirement being "Physically located the dungeon once on any character on any server on the same account" before the argument is made that "What if someone doesn't want to do that on several alts?" Totally cool with that. Just so long as they've been there once, on any character, I think that's totally okay. I see nothing wrong with REQUIRING they have been there ONCE before they can queue for it)

And as mentioned, I am curious about your opinion on the fact that Cata dungeons -do- require this.

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 10:47pm by Mikhalia
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#288 Jan 24 2011 at 9:44 PM Rating: Good
Sage
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447 posts
Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
The lack of proof of something being right or true, isn't necessarily proof in itself of it being wrong or false. However the same applies in reverse. You can't claim to be right because someone can't prove you wrong. You can't claim someone is wrong because they can't prove they are right. All you can do is agree to disagree. In which case the argument is mute anyway.



Exactly, only the argument would be 'moot' and not 'mute'. It should be mute, though.
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#289 Jan 24 2011 at 10:31 PM Rating: Excellent
*
53 posts
Ostia wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
Ostia wrote:
@ Olorinus and knockturnal

You guys seem to be missing the BIG point, wish is that this game will not, can not, and is not, going to survive with the current player base Period. SE must target the big casual audience if the hope for their game to survive, and eventually turn a profit, and for them to try and turn things around so that party play is as good or better than solo play, resources would need to be diverted from somewhere, and right now, they need to keep all their staff and resources on fixing this sinking ship :)

Just remember, Casual solo friendly = BIG BUCKS!
Must have party in order to GRIND = Loose of revenue!


I'm not missing that point. You're totally correct, they can't survive with the current playerbase & they need to re-acquire the former FFXI fans who already quit the game. They know this, and right now that's their best chance to gain subscribers. Again, the way things look right now, I bet SE would be happy to have the niche audience that FFXI has/had. They aren't aiming for WoW #'s here dude.


Their best chance to success is to try and gain subs from a niche ****** that never broke 1mil subs, and is stuck 1998 ? Or to fix this game, and actually deliver on their promise of a NEW GAME where the target audience was the casual market ?

Let me see, they can either hope they gain from 60-100k they have right now, up to 300-500k that FFXI had, or they can go from 60-100K to 1mil, 2mil, 3mil, 4mil, 5mil etc etc ?

That's a hard one right there, oh my what might SE Do?


I don't think it's a stretch to say that right now, most of the players left supporting XIV are either current or ex-XI players. If this game didn't have Final Fantasy in its name, and if it wasn't the "sequel" to a fairly successful MMO, this game would likely be dead already. Let's face it, the game right now is just bad.

Most of the people that saw the early previews and trailers and were impressed by the quality of the graphics or were looking for something to bridge the gap till Cataclysm or whatnot are already long gone. The game betrayed the expectations of pretty much everyone, and they need to fight to regain the trust of the consumers now. The game will never be a smash hit, no matter how many improvements they make. That boat has passed, first impressions are way too important in such a competitive market.

Right now what makes the most sense for them, and it's obvious by Yoshi-P's message that they understand that, is to win back the XI crowd. That's the only way they have right now of salvaging this mess and get a relatively healthy player base going, get subscriptions running, and get out of the red.

Once that's done, they can start looking at pulling in people from other crowds. Aiming at the casual players at this point would be suicidal. The game already IS overly casual and look what state its in?. What keeps a game running are the hardcore, people that log on constantly and obsess over the game and convince their friends to join. Word of mouth will be their best friend for the near future. How many of us still around have friends in XI or other games regularly asking for updates on how the game is doing? Lots of people want to play this game and love it. It's just impossible to in its current state.

No one wants this game to be XI-2 exactly. We want them to take the best from it, learn from its mistakes, and update it so it's competitive in today's market.
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#290 Jan 24 2011 at 10:51 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I get where you're coming from. You're saying you just want to be able to join a group and you really don't think there should be a requirement to have physically located for someone to group with you. We've discussed gating before and how you're against it and I'm for it.


The thing is, there are still guilds in WoW. Those are server specific. There are still people you meet through other interactions that are on your server that you can get to know. The dungeon finder tool doesn't cut out all avenues of social interaction. It just seems to me like you're throwing out the baby with the bath water. I don't begrudge your point of view about the impact it has on you based on that point of view, I just think that to turn up your nose at something with so many benefits over something that you can readily work around is a bit silly. Most people appreciate the social interaction in an MMO, but they don't log in to take part in a chat room. They log in to play a game. And when a developer offers a tool that enhances the playability of that game to such a significant degree, awesome.

Quote:
Yes, I don't see anything wrong with forcing a player to perform a relatively trivial task (locating the entrance to a dungeon before being able to queue for it). I pretty much assumed you'd disagree with me on that, and we're not going to see eye to eye on this one.


My question would be, how does it hurt you? By the time the dungeon finder tool came out, all of the WotLK 5-man content was in the game except for the ICC 5-mans. And now with Cataclysm, you have to have visited the dungeon in order to queue for it. So out of the entire game, there were literally 3 dungeons in total where it was somewhat common for people to arrive and have no clue how to get there without being ported there. Vanilla dungeons, TBC dungeons, most of the WotLK dungeons...most players had already been there countless times before on one character or another. So...the system doesn't work for you if you roll an alt? I used to love Shadowfang Keep. You think I really want to run another alt all the way the **** and gone through Hillsbrad just so I can prove...yet again...that I know how to get there so I can queue for a quick rip through for nostalgia's sake?

Did you say the same thing about summoning stones? I mean, from even before I started playing right after TBC launched up to today you could summon someone directly to the entrance of a dungeon even if they had never been there before. Did you ignore the benefit of that feature in order to condemn it for allowing people to be summoned to a dungeon they had never been to before? Did you complain that half the fun was chatting with your party members while you were all making your way to the dungeon and being able to summon them there and get started faster ruined the social aspect for you? Have you complained that in FFXIV, you can port someone to a camp they've never been to before as long as you've made the trip yourself?

Quote:
Incidentally, what -are- your feelings on the fact that the Cata dungeons require you to locate the dungeon entrance before being able to queue? In your opinion, is this a good idea or a bad move on Blizzard's part? As I've mentioned, I fully expect players to whine about it until they go back on it and remove the requirement, because Blizzard is all about removing all of the effort out of everything they possibly can if enough people ***** about "it's too hard!", but for the time being, I'm curious what your opinion is regarding the fact that Cataclysm dungeons require you to physically locate them before you can queue for them.


As I said, I don't care one way or the other. I'd have probably found all the entrances on my own in the process of questing through the zones, and unlike a lot of folks here, I don't get my jeans in a wad over what other people are or aren't doing if it doesn't affect me. I play the game my way, you play the game your way. Blizzard doesn't change things because people whine. You know that. If enough people whine, they take a look at things and like I pointed out in a previous post, they have all the objective numbers that will either support or refute the whining. If the numbers support it, they typically say so and adjust. If the numbers don't support it, they typically say so and leave things as they are.

Quote:
The first argument: Yes, I'd prefer to play with people on my own server. I get that having people from multiple servers shortens queue times. I get that limiting such a tool to only one server lengthens queue times. I'd rather wait longer and group only with people on my server. Personal preference.


And you can still do that. And yes, it will take you even longer to find a group that way than it would have before the dungeon finder tool, but that's the price you pay for being in the minority. I'm not trying to be rude, but MMO developers can't afford to cater to the minority.

Quote:
As for the entrance thing, I fully admit that it has less to do with caring whether someone knows where the entrance is and more to do with my desires to see other players put in work to gain access to something; in this case, locate the dungeon in order to be able to queue for it. I'm not even talking about long *** attunement chains to fight Onyxia; I'm just talking about "Physically locate the entrance one time. Boom. Now you can queue for it".


Honestly...none of your business. It's not your place to even ponder imposing your notion of a "work ethic" in a video game on other players. Especially when you take such a narrow view on something that you'd poo-poo an idea even though the people you're referring to in this case...the ones who genuinely don't know where a dungeon is...are the minority. *************** over the masses to suit your minority, or to stick it to another minority. One of these days you're going to suddenly come to the conclusion that the more picky and uptight you are about **** that doesn't matter, the more you're just ruining your own fun. "I think people should have to work for <x>." Awesome...YOU work for it, and leave everyone else the **** alone.

Quote:
Again, yes, I realize I'm advocating "gating" and you think that any form of gating is terrible. Yes, I expect you to say you disagree. You and I will continue arguing this particular point forever if we really want to go down that road and frankly, I think it's just as much a waste of your time to argue with me as is it a waste of mine to argue with you on this issue.


Don't do that. Don't exaggerate what I've said. I've criticized the gating in FFXIV because it's atrocious. No really, stop and think about it for a minute or two. EVERY...SINGLE...ACTIVITY is gated in FFXIV except for generic grinding. W...T...F. Regional leves are gated. 8 every 36 hours (and shared between combat classes and DoL). Local leves are gated. 8 every 36 hours. Faction leves are gated. Faction credits or gtfo (gated content behind gated content...awesome). Behest is gated. Strict party limit and if you can't get a spot, **** off for another hour. World spawn NMs are gated. Be there with your group when it's up or go to ****. There's hardly anything fun in the game to begin with and then they go and gate all of it? Really?

Garbage. Utter garbage.

If a developer is going to gate something, there has to be a reason for it. And it has to be a significant reason.

Quote:
So in short: Yes. I see absolutely nothing wrong with requiring a player to physically locate the dungeon once before they can queue for it. Nothing at all. Not a **** thing. (EDIT: ****, I'd even be fine with the requirement being "Physically located the dungeon once on any character on any server on the same account" before the argument is made that "What if someone doesn't want to do that on several alts?" Totally cool with that. Just so long as they've been there once, on any character, I think that's totally okay. I see nothing wrong with REQUIRING they have been there ONCE before they can queue for it)


Right. And the majority of people playing are people who have already been to a majority of the content. So who are you really restricting? New players. The minority. To suit some **** retentive desire to make sure that someone knows how to steer their character. Wee.

Quote:
And as mentioned, I am curious about your opinion on the fact that Cata dungeons -do- require this.


I don't care. I really don't. I'd have most likely found the entrances on my own anyways. It's not a big deal to me. And as long as Bob can contribute to the group (or can take some helpful advice), I don't care what he does when he's not in my group (as long as he's not being a nuisance or a twerp, of course.) It's not worth my time to get all butthurt because Bob queued for BFD and had never even quested in Kalimdor before. Before the dungeon finder, the group would probably have just summoned him there anyways, so wtf does it matter?
#291 Jan 25 2011 at 2:12 AM Rating: Good
**
568 posts
I agree on the gating bit. That is annoying and it seems to be a new FF trend that bleeds from the horror that is XIII.
players don't like to be drip-fed content.

I don't know what they have to do to make partying work but I hope they do since currently it's too short lived and messy.

Behests are zerg fests but i have to admit that there's something utterly exciting about the chaos they contain.
Making battle slower and enemies harder would go a long way into solving the problem.

Now if only I could just target the mob with my controller before it's dead before most players catch on the fact that I'm not really contributing to kills that much >___>()
#292 Jan 25 2011 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
Bruknarr wrote:
I don't think it's a stretch to say that right now, most of the players left supporting XIV are either current or ex-XI players. If this game didn't have Final Fantasy in its name, and if it wasn't the "sequel" to a fairly successful MMO, this game would likely be dead already. Let's face it, the game right now is just bad.


On the player poll, I noticed that in terms of "What do you like most", "The Final Fantasy Name" ranked SIGNIFICANTLY higher than gameplay, etc. Graphics/World were the only things that ranked higher. So yeah, that pretty much proves that some people are ONLY playing because it's a FF game.

EDIT: Or rather, if it wasn't a FF game, they would have quit by now.

Aurelius wrote:
The thing is, there are still guilds in WoW. Those are server specific. There are still people you meet through other interactions that are on your server that you can get to know. The dungeon finder tool doesn't cut out all avenues of social interaction. It just seems to me like you're throwing out the baby with the bath water. I don't begrudge your point of view about the impact it has on you based on that point of view, I just think that to turn up your nose at something with so many benefits over something that you can readily work around is a bit silly. Most people appreciate the social interaction in an MMO, but they don't log in to take part in a chat room. They log in to play a game. And when a developer offers a tool that enhances the playability of that game to such a significant degree, awesome.


I'm not totally turning my nose up at the whole system; I think it's a good system and the addition of it improved the game overall. I was merely griping about one feature of it I don't like (the cross-server aspect). I certainly don't think the game was better off without it, or that it should be thrown out.

Aurelius wrote:
My question would be, how does it hurt you? By the time the dungeon finder tool came out, all of the WotLK 5-man content was in the game except for the ICC 5-mans. And now with Cataclysm, you have to have visited the dungeon in order to queue for it. So out of the entire game, there were literally 3 dungeons in total where it was somewhat common for people to arrive and have no clue how to get there without being ported there. Vanilla dungeons, TBC dungeons, most of the WotLK dungeons...most players had already been there countless times before on one character or another. So...the system doesn't work for you if you roll an alt? I used to love Shadowfang Keep. You think I really want to run another alt all the way the **** and gone through Hillsbrad just so I can prove...yet again...that I know how to get there so I can queue for a quick rip through for nostalgia's sake?


I said at the bottom of the post after the edit that I have no problem with alts, just so long as the person has physically been there once, on any character, on any server, on the same account. For that matter, I also think that achievements should have been account based and not character based, but that's another matter.

Aurelius wrote:
Did you say the same thing about summoning stones? I mean, from even before I started playing right after TBC launched up to today you could summon someone directly to the entrance of a dungeon even if they had never been there before. Did you ignore the benefit of that feature in order to condemn it for allowing people to be summoned to a dungeon they had never been to before? Did you complain that half the fun was chatting with your party members while you were all making your way to the dungeon and being able to summon them there and get started faster ruined the social aspect for you? Have you complained that in FFXIV, you can port someone to a camp they've never been to before as long as you've made the trip yourself?


Nah, because at least summoning stones required two people to physically go to the dungeon. I thought they were a nice feature. I wouldn't mind seeing something similar in XIV.

Aurelius wrote:
As I said, I don't care one way or the other. I'd have probably found all the entrances on my own in the process of questing through the zones, and unlike a lot of folks here, I don't get my jeans in a wad over what other people are or aren't doing if it doesn't affect me. I play the game my way, you play the game your way. Blizzard doesn't change things because people whine. You know that. If enough people whine, they take a look at things and like I pointed out in a previous post, they have all the objective numbers that will either support or refute the whining. If the numbers support it, they typically say so and adjust. If the numbers don't support it, they typically say so and leave things as they are.


Actually, I'd say they change A LOT of things because of players whining. Mount minimum level, the lowered level requirement of Rogue Dual Wield and Hunter pets, removal of keys and attunements were just a couple examples I gave. There's also the fact that they changed starter area mobs such that none of them aggro at all, added a @#%^load more flight paths, etc. Like I said, Blizzard is all about making everything as effortless as possible, to a fault. That was part of the reason I quit WoW, aside from the gear grind, was that other than raiding, the entire game was so **** effortless that I no longer felt like I was actually being challenged by anything else in the game. Raiding was the only remotely challenging thing in the game, and only three raids a week were even worth doing. Leveling more alts became a joke that required little effort whatsoever. Over time, the game just became less and less fun to play and felt like it was edging ever closer to including "Be 80" and "Get purples" buttons on the character creation screen.

Aurelius wrote:
And you can still do that. And yes, it will take you even longer to find a group that way than it would have before the dungeon finder tool, but that's the price you pay for being in the minority. I'm not trying to be rude, but MMO developers can't afford to cater to the minority.


Never said that Blizzard had to. Merely said that that was my preference.

And hey, why can't they add in a checkbox on the LFG tool that says "Only group me with players on my server"? It'll take longer, but I'm -choosing- to let it take longer, so it doesn't affect anyone else.

Aurelius wrote:
Honestly...none of your business. It's not your place to even ponder imposing your notion of a "work ethic" in a video game on other players. Especially when you take such a narrow view on something that you'd poo-poo an idea even though the people you're referring to in this case...the ones who genuinely don't know where a dungeon is...are the minority. Again...@#%^ing over the masses to suit your minority, or to stick it to another minority. One of these days you're going to suddenly come to the conclusion that the more picky and uptight you are about sh*t that doesn't matter, the more you're just ruining your own fun. "I think people should have to work for <x>." Awesome...YOU work for it, and leave everyone else the @#%^ alone.


I said we'd disagree on this. Yes, I think people should have to work for things. No, I don't think a trivial amount of nominal effort (In this case, walking to the dungeon, once, on any character at all) is too much to ask.

And if the people who haven't located these dungeons are the minority, then they should have no problem putting in the same effort that every player before them has put in for years. Ooohh... they have to get to the dungeon. That's sooo hard. There aren't even elites at the entrance anymore.

Why don't we just skip the dungeon and the wait time too and just give them the gear as soon as they queue for the dungeon? You think FINDING the place is hard, actually DOING the work is even harder! And that's not even remotely fair to bads who suck and can't clear a dungeon. They should get purples too! Wouldn't want to exclude them. After all, none of our business, right?

No. If WoW wants to promote the idea that you shouldn't have to work for things, then fine. That's part of the reason I don't play WoW anymore. I'd like to see a lot of FFXIV's limitations removed, though.

Aurelius wrote:
Don't do that. Don't exaggerate what I've said. I've criticized the gating in FFXIV because it's atrocious. No really, stop and think about it for a minute or two. EVERY...SINGLE...ACTIVITY is gated in FFXIV except for generic grinding. W...T...F. Regional leves are gated. 8 every 36 hours (and shared between combat classes and DoL). Local leves are gated. 8 every 36 hours. Faction leves are gated. Faction credits or gtfo (gated content behind gated content...awesome). Behest is gated. Strict party limit and if you can't get a spot, @#%^ off for another hour. World spawn NMs are gated. Be there with your group when it's up or go to ****. There's hardly anything fun in the game to begin with and then they go and gate all of it? Really?

Garbage. Utter garbage.

If a developer is going to gate something, there has to be a reason for it. And it has to be a significant reason.


And I agree with you that it's garbage that all of the leves and behest and partying are on such ridiculous restrictions and that those restrictions should be removed. I still don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone to have to walk somewhere before they can fast travel there though. There's a line of how much gating is too much and FFXIV crosses so far over the line that the line is now a dot.

Aurelius wrote:
Right. And the majority of people playing are people who have already been to a majority of the content. So who are you really restricting? New players. The minority. To suit some **** retentive desire to make sure that someone knows how to steer their character. Wee.


Cool, you get it. Yes, new players, the minority, should have to put in the same amount of work to locate the dungeon that everyone before them did for years. They only even have to do it once, ever. I don't get why that's a big deal, but as I said, I knew you'd fly off the handle at the notion when I first brought it up.

Aurelius wrote:
I don't care. I really don't. I'd have most likely found the entrances on my own anyways. It's not a big deal to me. And as long as Bob can contribute to the group (or can take some helpful advice), I don't care what he does when he's not in my group (as long as he's not being a nuisance or a twerp, of course.) It's not worth my time to get all butthurt because Bob queued for BFD and had never even quested in Kalimdor before. Before the dungeon finder, the group would probably have just summoned him there anyways, so wtf does it matter?


Told you we'd disagree. Told you it was pointless to argue with me because we're going to continue to disagree. This is me still disagreeing. And this is one point I won't change my mind on in a month or two or five. I honestly believe that a nominal amount of effort required on the part of a new player is not inherently a bad thing, and no, I really don't give a sh*t if it inconveniences them. They should either put in the work to walk to the dungeon (boo hoo, that's so hard) or they can simply not queue for that dungeon.

I'm not saying to gate the living @#%^ out of everything like XIV does, because XIV goes way too far overboard with it, but a little bit of effort is not the most terrible thing in the world. They'll live, I promise.

I'm not sure what you're expecting by trying to argue this point. I already told you that my mind was made up and you aren't going to change it and I already said I'm aware your mind is made up and I'm not going to change it. We can either agree to disagree, or you can keep trying to tell me why you think I'm wrong and I can keep not caring. I get where you're coming from. I get why you believe I am wrong. I disagree.

EDIT: Broke quote limit.

Edited, Jan 25th 2011 11:46am by Mikhalia
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#293 Jan 25 2011 at 9:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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473 posts
I'd like to interject some common sense into this thread that might have started to become a flame on flame by some of the posters.

With adding group based content and mobs that are in the open world that can killed by parties and solo'ers. I play this game both ways and have seen in quite a few areas where there is an intermix of mobs for all rank levels to kill. The Zones are large and can have pockets tuned with mobs specific to those who want to party grind sp, and then have areas such as main travel paths and mining/botany/fishing nodes that can be reached by those not looking to battle a mob.

As well for those gathering class players who are gathering, when engaged in a gathering mode with you're tool out the dev can easily give them a no aggro zone so that aggressive monsters will ignore them. Once done gathering you have 30-45 seconds to move before the monster will be aggressive towards you again. That helps casual gatherers and prevents needles death returns. As well areas like coerthas and mor dhona. As well in the rank 30 behest areas there could be mob pockets for solo'ers that are scaled to them and pockets of mobs scaled to group players within that rank range. Or have the mines meant for activities of that nature.

As from an SP perspective there doesn't need a nurf stick to be waved around. Solo and casual play does not need to be nerfed. Party play with a bit better sp because of the nature of the mobs being fought should be slightly better to encourage grouping but not take away from the solo experience. Solo is also great for gathering of materials and shards/crystals and give the solo players a better boost when they go out farming more loot and a desirable sp level. It would balance out for both ends.

Now again I am not a SE developer but I am sure they are looking into the best way for both types of players to be satisfied with what they give us. Leve's also give a nice exp/sp boost to the solo oriented player as well and that would go into their pool of ways to garner experience.

Neither group of player is going to be hung to dry, I don't see that as being SE intention.


Talking on role differentiation It also seems the armoury system as it is not 100% broken, it just needs adjusting. If SE can balance some of the skills and give each class actual traits that are different for every class and would skew how they would fight in battle as well as diversify the class skill animations we would see a marked difference between the current classes. As well I would encourage SE to allow magical finishers into the BR system as how the old Skillchain system worked in XI. That was unique and fun to pull off and catered to the whole parties Epeen when it went of right and the mobs were being blasted to bits. That will give room for thaum and conj to have a dedicated nuking role as well. Meaning parties would be 10 people but you have the cure oriented mages and the magic based nuke caster tuning themselves for those roles. Since the armoury systems allows for on the fly skill set ups each group could cater to its own needs. Allowing for solo, small, and large group play to be done effectively.


Its going to take time, and yes much of my post is speculation and my own thoughts on what SE can do about the current battle system. But anything that engages the whole party and gives players things to do and allows for strategy I have no problem voicing those thoughts.

Any ideas and criticisms I do appreciate because this is how we as a community will help SE evolve this game into what we want.
#294 Jan 25 2011 at 10:05 AM Rating: Default
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3,416 posts
Quote:
If a developer is going to gate something, there has to be a reason for it. And it has to be a significant reason.


I see you have quite the negative opinion about gating. No company gates the content of their game for no reason.

It is rather simple concept, and stems from the companies desire to make the content grindy. The reward of said content is in direct relation to whether it's gated content or grindy content. The harsher the gating, the better the over-all effort vs. gain when you do it once. It all depends on how the developers want to balance the rewards. If they want you to get a maximum of 20k SP solo doing leves in a period of 36 hours, you will be getting an average 20k SP solo in a period of 36 hours regardless of if the content is gated or not. Either it takes 8 leves to get there, or it takes 30. If the content is not gated, you will need to do it many more times. If the content is harshly gated (let's say one leve per 36 hours), you only need to do the event once per 36 hours to get 20k SP.

In some cases gating depending on how it's done also has additional effects. If you can do 8 leves alone and multiple times that in a group setting (and the rewards for doing as many leves as possible are high enough), the incentive (agenda) to group is much higher.

In other words "I will group because the gain vs. effort ratio is high enough for me." Most of us, living in Western individualistic societies, require that agenda to socialize with people other than our friends. If the agenda is not good enough, we'd rather mind our own business. Harsh generalization I know, but so I've noticed. On the other hand, Japanese living in a more collectivistic society do not need such an agenda and as such they are much more eager to group even if the incentive is not that high.

Edited, Jan 25th 2011 7:12pm by Hyanmen
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#295 Jan 25 2011 at 10:23 AM Rating: Good
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1,606 posts
KnocturnalOne wrote:
Aurelius wrote:


I've been right way, way more than I've been wrong here. So ya, apparently I've got SOMETHING going on that makes me more knowledgeable than you, now were you going to argue some points of your own like a grown-up or are you just going to duck and hide and come up with a new spin on the, "Well...well...YOU DON'T KNOW FOR SURE!!" line every post?



WTF are you talking about, I've literally quoted the words from the only person that matters. You continue to ask me to prove something to you when there's nothing left to prove. WTF are you smoking?

A lot of what you quoted has been kind of subjective. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not saying you're right. Just that it leaves a lot of gray in what it actually means.
Same with the assumption that because a lot of the players of FFXIV played FFXI they would want party grinding. I know plenty of people who played FFXI but quit because of the forced partying (back when only BST and SMN (in certain situations) could solo well). May well have liked everything about FFXI but the need for partying to level was unacceptable. I would imagine FFXIV would have had a lot of appeal to those players if that was the case. FF but a lot more solo friendly.

Aurelius is annoying (though the way he acts in some of his posts "jerk" or worse may be more accurate) but I think he's right that it wouldn't be just a simple matter of dropping some party type mobs into the game and everyone could be happy. If this were years back and it was still in it's development then there would be all kinds of possibilities but for something in progress that went live 4? months ago, that's a real challenge. I'm not saying they can't do it because SE is God in this game but have concerns how they might implement it.

Who knows, maybe SE will decide that after the damage that has been done that there best bet for making money off it will be to make it a niche game. Maybe it will be a game that made early years of FFXI look like a solo game by comparison (or whatever it is "party people" want). We may be at a point where this game could go in any direction in order to increase subs and eventually revenue.
#296 Jan 25 2011 at 11:12 AM Rating: Decent
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447 posts
MrTalos wrote:


Aurelius is annoying (though the way he acts in some of his posts "jerk" or worse may be more accurate) but I think he's right that it wouldn't be just a simple matter of dropping some party type mobs into the game and everyone could be happy. If this were years back and it was still in it's development then there would be all kinds of possibilities but for something in progress that went live 4? months ago, that's a real challenge. I'm not saying they can't do it because SE is God in this game but have concerns how they might implement it.

Who knows, maybe SE will decide that after the damage that has been done that there best bet for making money off it will be to make it a niche game. Maybe it will be a game that made early years of FFXI look like a solo game by comparison (or whatever it is "party people" want). We may be at a point where this game could go in any direction in order to increase subs and eventually revenue.


I can certainly appreciate your point, and agree with you overall. If it were a simple fix, we'd already have it now. That said, I think they can take the good things from how parties worked in XI, the improvements they made to it (Level-Synch, etc.) over the years, and make it work in this game. Could a side effect of that impact the game experience in FFXIV as we know it now? Sure, but according to player feedback they are relatively ok with a major gameplay change. Could that make it a niche game rather than appealing to the masses? Sure, but I think it could still make this game more successful than it's headed.

I also think alot of people quit FFXI early on when there were no fields of valor, level-synching so you can always party with your friends without fear of your static getting too hight, or campaign to solo in when you only have an hour to party or don't feel like joining a group. If they would have had that from the beginning, I think more people would have stuck around.

They've proven they can build upon that successful formula. They should have took it one step further in XIV with party play, while also focusing on solo content too!

____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#297 Jan 25 2011 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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1,636 posts
It sounds to me like a lot of people don't just want grouping to be effective, they want FFXI style grouping to be not only effective, but also the best option.
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#298 Jan 25 2011 at 12:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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265 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
It sounds to me like a lot of people don't just want grouping to be effective, they want FFXI style grouping to be not only effective, but also the best option.


in an MMO, grouping should ALWAYS be superior to solo. Its the only way for people to want to even bother to do it. What people should have is options, leve's, quests, group grind...w/e. Something will always end up being the better of the options because of xp per hour or always having it available or something, but that does not mean everyone has to do it, there is already more then 1 way to group and grind and these days people want more then 1 thing (including solo)so its will never be required.
#299 Jan 25 2011 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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53 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
It sounds to me like a lot of people don't just want grouping to be effective, they want FFXI style grouping to be not only effective, but also the best option.


If you give people 2 options :

1- Step outside of town and mass murder marmots, dodos, mushrooms, etc.

or

2- Do a search, find people around your level, invite them to build a balanced party, find a suitable camp, head out and cooperate together to take down stronger foes.

If both options give the exact same end result in terms of SP/EXP, 90% of people will pick option #1, because it's "easier" and there's no real work involved with it beyond spamming 1-2-3 over and over again. Looking at any of the quest/solo heavy MMOs out there proves it. You can party and kill monsters in WoW but does anyone do it? Not really, because you'll do just as well on your own.

Without some form of incentive over solo play, group play will never really work out. On the other hand, even if grouping ends up with a certain advantage over soloing, people will still solo regardless, because it's perfectly viable right now to do so, and because most MMOs have turned into individualistic games and it's what the majority is now used to.
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FFXIV - Bruknar Dinendal - Istory.
#300 Jan 25 2011 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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9,526 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
It sounds to me like a lot of people don't just want grouping to be effective, they want FFXI style grouping to be not only effective, but also the best option.


In order to make up for the lost time, making a party - assembling - deciding on strategy - peak SP from a party should be higher than peak SP from soloing. It doesn't need to be astronomically higher - but if soloing is the best option - then only people hellbent on partying will party.

You need to make partying give slightly better SP in order to make up for the time (away from gaining SP) that it takes to put one together. Even if you get exactly the same SP/hr as soloing - then you lose with a party.

That doesn't mean SP should be bad for soloers... and in fact I hope it is tuned so "good" soloing is generally better than a "bad" party, SP-wise. However - a good party SHOULD get better SP than a good soloer - even if only because a good party is more difficult - thus should get better rewards - but mostly because if good soloing is the same or better than good partying then partying will stay broken.

Besides, soloers already have advantages - such as they get to keep all crystal/shards and drops - whereas in parties you split the loot.

Edited, Jan 25th 2011 11:05am by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#301 Jan 25 2011 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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146 posts
Bruknarr wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
It sounds to me like a lot of people don't just want grouping to be effective, they want FFXI style grouping to be not only effective, but also the best option.


If you give people 2 options :

1- Step outside of town and mass murder marmots, dodos, mushrooms, etc.

or

2- Do a search, find people around your level, invite them to build a balanced party, find a suitable camp, head out and cooperate together to take down stronger foes.

If both options give the exact same end result in terms of SP/EXP, 90% of people will pick option #1, because it's "easier" and there's no real work involved with it beyond spamming 1-2-3 over and over again.


Good point. In a general way, they need to find incentives so fighting tougher mobs would be more rewarding.

It could be more SP, and/or it could be something else that makes your character more efficient in its class.

You know, in the same principle as evasion skill or healing magic skill or parrying skill etc. in XI, for which you got decent skill ups only when fighting mobs higher than the level of a given skill.

Soloing could still take you to 50 but you would have to party at least here and there so you can take these tougher mobs on and skill up...

Edit: I'm NOT saying I want a skill up system like in XI, I only pointed out that there are other incentives to fight tougher mobs, thus to group, than more SP. I still would like to see improved party SP.


Edited, Jan 25th 2011 2:23pm by northernsky
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