I don't think it's a stretch to say that right now, most of the players left supporting XIV are either current or ex-XI players. If this game didn't have Final Fantasy in its name, and if it wasn't the "sequel" to a fairly successful MMO, this game would likely be dead already. Let's face it, the game right now is just bad.
On the player poll, I noticed that in terms of "What do you like most", "The Final Fantasy Name" ranked SIGNIFICANTLY higher than gameplay, etc. Graphics/World were the only things that ranked higher. So yeah, that pretty much proves that some people are ONLY playing because it's a FF game.
EDIT: Or rather, if it wasn't a FF game, they would have quit by now.
The thing is, there are still guilds in WoW. Those are server specific. There are still people you meet through other interactions that are on your server that you can get to know. The dungeon finder tool doesn't cut out all avenues of social interaction. It just seems to me like you're throwing out the baby with the bath water. I don't begrudge your point of view about the impact it has on you based on that point of view, I just think that to turn up your nose at something with so many benefits over something that you can readily work around is a bit silly. Most people appreciate the social interaction in an MMO, but they don't log in to take part in a chat room. They log in to play a game. And when a developer offers a tool that enhances the playability of that game to such a significant degree, awesome.
I'm not totally turning my nose up at the whole system; I think it's a good system and the addition of it improved the game overall. I was merely griping about one feature of it I don't like (the cross-server aspect). I certainly don't think the game was better off without it, or that it should be thrown out.
My question would be, how does it hurt you? By the time the dungeon finder tool came out, all of the WotLK 5-man content was in the game except for the ICC 5-mans. And now with Cataclysm, you have to have visited the dungeon in order to queue for it. So out of the entire game, there were literally 3 dungeons in total where it was somewhat common for people to arrive and have no clue how to get there without being ported there. Vanilla dungeons, TBC dungeons, most of the WotLK dungeons...most players had already been there countless times before on one character or another. So...the system doesn't work for you if you roll an alt? I used to love Shadowfang Keep. You think I really want to run another alt all the way the **** and gone through Hillsbrad just so I can prove...yet again...that I know how to get there so I can queue for a quick rip through for nostalgia's sake?
I said at the bottom of the post after the edit that I have no problem with alts, just so long as the person has physically been there once, on any character, on any server, on the same account. For that matter, I also think that achievements should have been account based and not character based, but that's another matter.
Did you say the same thing about summoning stones? I mean, from even before I started playing right after TBC launched up to today you could summon someone directly to the entrance of a dungeon even if they had never been there before. Did you ignore the benefit of that feature in order to condemn it for allowing people to be summoned to a dungeon they had never been to before? Did you complain that half the fun was chatting with your party members while you were all making your way to the dungeon and being able to summon them there and get started faster ruined the social aspect for you? Have you complained that in FFXIV, you can port someone to a camp they've never been to before as long as you've made the trip yourself?
Nah, because at least summoning stones required two people to physically go to the dungeon. I thought they were a nice feature. I wouldn't mind seeing something similar in XIV.
As I said, I don't care one way or the other. I'd have probably found all the entrances on my own in the process of questing through the zones, and unlike a lot of folks here, I don't get my jeans in a wad over what other people are or aren't doing if it doesn't affect me. I play the game my way, you play the game your way. Blizzard doesn't change things because people whine. You know that. If enough people whine, they take a look at things and like I pointed out in a previous post, they have all the objective numbers that will either support or refute the whining. If the numbers support it, they typically say so and adjust. If the numbers don't support it, they typically say so and leave things as they are.
Actually, I'd say they change A LOT of things because of players whining. Mount minimum level, the lowered level requirement of Rogue Dual Wield and Hunter pets, removal of keys and attunements were just a couple examples I gave. There's also the fact that they changed starter area mobs such that none of them aggro at all, added a @#%^load more flight paths, etc. Like I said, Blizzard is all about making everything as effortless as possible, to a fault. That was part of the reason I quit WoW, aside from the gear grind, was that other than raiding, the entire game was so **** effortless that I no longer felt like I was actually being challenged by anything else in the game. Raiding was the only remotely challenging thing in the game, and only three raids a week were even worth doing. Leveling more alts became a joke that required little effort whatsoever. Over time, the game just became less and less fun to play and felt like it was edging ever closer to including "Be 80" and "Get purples" buttons on the character creation screen.
And you can still do that. And yes, it will take you even longer to find a group that way than it would have before the dungeon finder tool, but that's the price you pay for being in the minority. I'm not trying to be rude, but MMO developers can't afford to cater to the minority.
Never said that Blizzard had to. Merely said that that was my preference.
And hey, why can't they add in a checkbox on the LFG tool that says "Only group me with players on my server"? It'll take longer, but I'm -choosing- to let it take longer, so it doesn't affect anyone else.
Honestly...none of your business. It's not your place to even ponder imposing your notion of a "work ethic" in a video game on other players. Especially when you take such a narrow view on something that you'd poo-poo an idea even though the people you're referring to in this case...the ones who genuinely don't know where a dungeon is...are the minority. Again...@#%^ing over the masses to suit your minority, or to stick it to another minority. One of these days you're going to suddenly come to the conclusion that the more picky and uptight you are about sh*t that doesn't matter, the more you're just ruining your own fun. "I think people should have to work for <x>." Awesome...YOU work for it, and leave everyone else the @#%^ alone.
I said we'd disagree on this. Yes, I think people should have to work for things. No, I don't think a trivial amount of nominal effort (In this case, walking to the dungeon, once, on any character at all) is too much to ask.
And if the people who haven't located these dungeons are the minority, then they should have no problem putting in the same effort that every player before them has put in for years. Ooohh... they have to get to the dungeon. That's sooo hard. There aren't even elites at the entrance anymore.
Why don't we just skip the dungeon and the wait time too and just give them the gear as soon as they queue for the dungeon? You think FINDING the place is hard, actually DOING the work is even harder! And that's not even remotely fair to bads who suck and can't clear a dungeon. They should get purples too! Wouldn't want to exclude them. After all, none of our business, right?
No. If WoW wants to promote the idea that you shouldn't have to work for things, then fine. That's part of the reason I don't play WoW anymore. I'd like to see a lot of FFXIV's limitations removed, though.
Don't do that. Don't exaggerate what I've said. I've criticized the gating in FFXIV because it's atrocious. No really, stop and think about it for a minute or two. EVERY...SINGLE...ACTIVITY is gated in FFXIV except for generic grinding. W...T...F. Regional leves are gated. 8 every 36 hours (and shared between combat classes and DoL). Local leves are gated. 8 every 36 hours. Faction leves are gated. Faction credits or gtfo (gated content behind gated content...awesome). Behest is gated. Strict party limit and if you can't get a spot, @#%^ off for another hour. World spawn NMs are gated. Be there with your group when it's up or go to ****. There's hardly anything fun in the game to begin with and then they go and gate all of it? Really?
Garbage. Utter garbage.
If a developer is going to gate something, there has to be a reason for it. And it has to be a significant reason.
And I agree with you that it's garbage that all of the leves and behest and partying are on such ridiculous restrictions and that those restrictions should be removed. I still don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone to have to walk somewhere before they can fast travel there though. There's a line of how much gating is too much and FFXIV crosses so far over the line that the line is now a dot.
Right. And the majority of people playing are people who have already been to a majority of the content. So who are you really restricting? New players. The minority. To suit some **** retentive desire to make sure that someone knows how to steer their character. Wee.
Cool, you get it. Yes, new players, the minority, should have to put in the same amount of work to locate the dungeon that everyone before them did for years. They only even have to do it once, ever. I don't get why that's a big deal, but as I said, I knew you'd fly off the handle at the notion when I first brought it up.
I don't care. I really don't. I'd have most likely found the entrances on my own anyways. It's not a big deal to me. And as long as Bob can contribute to the group (or can take some helpful advice), I don't care what he does when he's not in my group (as long as he's not being a nuisance or a twerp, of course.) It's not worth my time to get all butthurt because Bob queued for BFD and had never even quested in Kalimdor before. Before the dungeon finder, the group would probably have just summoned him there anyways, so wtf does it matter?
Told you we'd disagree. Told you it was pointless to argue with me because we're going to continue to disagree. This is me still disagreeing. And this is one point I won't change my mind on in a month or two or five. I honestly believe that a nominal amount of effort required on the part of a new player is not inherently a bad thing, and no, I really don't give a sh*t if it inconveniences them. They should either put in the work to walk to the dungeon (boo hoo, that's so hard) or they can simply not queue for that dungeon.
I'm not saying to gate the living @#%^ out of everything like XIV does, because XIV goes way too far overboard with it, but a little bit of effort is not the most terrible thing in the world. They'll live, I promise.
I'm not sure what you're expecting by trying to argue this point. I already told you that my mind was made up and you aren't going to change it and I already said I'm aware your mind is made up and I'm not going to change it. We can either agree to disagree, or you can keep trying to tell me why you think I'm wrong and I can keep not caring. I get where you're coming from. I get why you believe I am wrong. I disagree.
EDIT: Broke quote limit. Edited, Jan 25th 2011 11:46am by Mikhalia