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#302 Jan 25 2011 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:


In order to make up for the lost time, making a party - assembling - deciding on strategy - peak SP from a party should be higher than peak SP from soloing. It doesn't need to be astronomically higher - but if soloing is the best option - then only people hellbent on partying will party.

You need to make partying give slightly better SP in order to make up for the time (away from gaining SP) that it takes to put one together. Even if you get exactly the same SP/hr as soloing - then you lose with a party.

That doesn't mean SP should be bad for soloers... and in fact I hope it is tuned so "good" soloing is generally better than a "bad" party, SP-wise. However - a good party SHOULD get better SP than a good soloer - even if only because a good party is more difficult - thus should get better rewards - but mostly because if good soloing is the same or better than good partying then partying will stay broken.

Besides, soloers already have advantages - such as they get to keep all crystal/shards and drops - whereas in parties you split the loot.

Edited, Jan 25th 2011 11:05am by Olorinus


Bingo! You are my hero. This is exactly the type of play I would prefer, no matter how much of a minority I am in.
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#303 Jan 25 2011 at 1:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
That doesn't mean SP should be bad for soloers... and in fact I hope it is tuned so "good" soloing is generally better than a "bad" party, SP-wise. However - a good party SHOULD get better SP than a good soloer - even if only because a good party is more difficult - thus should get better rewards - but mostly because if good soloing is the same or better than good partying then partying will stay broken.


Yeah, that was the biggest problem with FFXI in terms of solo vs party is that for the longest time, even a ****** party was better xp than soloing, and some classes were flat out incapable of soloing at all.
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#304 Jan 25 2011 at 1:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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zanfire wrote:
KujaKof wrote:
It sounds to me like a lot of people don't just want grouping to be effective, they want FFXI style grouping to be not only effective, but also the best option.
in an MMO, grouping should ALWAYS be superior to solo.

I pretty much agree with this. Solo should always remain an option for those who either can't find groups or lack the time to invest in those pursuits, but group experience should always be the most efficient method for advancing skill ranks. If it wasn't, there would be little need for parties and people would solo all the time.

It's not without its pitfalls either, however. When I left, FFXI had pretty much become a nightmare for certain jobs because everyone had an idea of the ideal XP/hr and if your class didn't fit that method you had no place in a party. I'm looking at you, Summoner. Maybe its the same, maybe its evolved. I have no idea, I just don't want to see FFXIV turn into that.

Keeping things solo friendly while still making the game more beneficial for parties means the game can appeal to a wider audience as well as offer challenges to its hardcore players. It doesn't have to be black or white.
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#305 Jan 25 2011 at 2:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
That doesn't mean SP should be bad for soloers... and in fact I hope it is tuned so "good" soloing is generally better than a "bad" party, SP-wise. However - a good party SHOULD get better SP than a good soloer - even if only because a good party is more difficult - thus should get better rewards - but mostly because if good soloing is the same or better than good partying then partying will stay broken.


Yeah, that was the biggest problem with FFXI in terms of solo vs party is that for the longest time, even a sh*tty party was better xp than soloing, and some classes were flat out incapable of soloing at all.


Bang on, at least, solo some respectable mobs, meaning exp was almost entirely FOV dependent.

Concerning your first point, I'm not so sure.
It was quite common to see people go AFK or die all the time in poor pt then waiting for a raise because they thought that it was worth waiting 20 minutes to save 800 exp when you gain 6-10k exp per hour.
It could take a lot of time to replace people who were leaving, switching camps was a nightmare because you had to wait for everyone to stop by AH or MH etc. etc.

A good pt that could go on for at least 2 hours was definitely way better than soloing, but efficient soloing was close to an average pt when you consider all the time involved in just creating the party and get going, and the time spent at actually killing mobs.

Granted I played most of my solo time as DRG and BLU who were not bad soloers

Edited, Jan 25th 2011 3:19pm by northernsky
#306 Jan 25 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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northernsky wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
That doesn't mean SP should be bad for soloers... and in fact I hope it is tuned so "good" soloing is generally better than a "bad" party, SP-wise. However - a good party SHOULD get better SP than a good soloer - even if only because a good party is more difficult - thus should get better rewards - but mostly because if good soloing is the same or better than good partying then partying will stay broken.


Yeah, that was the biggest problem with FFXI in terms of solo vs party is that for the longest time, even a sh*tty party was better xp than soloing, and some classes were flat out incapable of soloing at all.


Bang on, at least, solo some respectable mobs, meaning exp was almost FOV dependent.

Concerning your first point, I'm not so sure.
It was quite common to see people go AFK or die all the time in poor pt, it could take a lot of time to replace people who were leaving, switching camps was a nightmare because you had to wait for everyone to stop by AH or MH etc. etc.

A good pt that could go on for at least 2 hours was definitely way better than soloing, but efficient soloing was close to an average pt when you consider all the time involved in just creating the party and get going.

Granted I played most of my solo time as DRG and BLU


It has improved over the years, but if you'll think back to a time when most classes could really only solo EP or low DC at higher levels, at 10-40 xp per kill, with 3-5 minute fights, partying was nearly always way more efficient unless your party stopped for a fifteen minute rest after each kill.

Soloing in FFXI has improved by leaps and bounds.
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#307 Jan 25 2011 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
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my point was mainly that I'm observing that people are continuously shooting down other grouping ideas, preferring the 6 vs mob style, and generally being against group vs mob group, group questing, or any type of instanced grouping.

What I liked, (and I'll get downrated for even bringing it up) was that WOW had roughly equal systems for both groups and solos, for large portions of the game. Depending on classes, level ranges/quest availability, and several other factors, I found that sometimes soloing was faster and more rewarding, sometimes instancing was, and I considered them actually equal.

I would rather see game in the future take on this approach, and allow for group grinding to be equal to solo objective play. I would prefer to see the average solo EXP be equal to the average group exp, because I don't feel either form of play style is harder, superior, better. I would rather see players see their returns based on their actual gameplay and getting the most out of the systems, than flat out say that grouping is worth more.

I consider myself someone who likes both styles. Sometimes I want to put on a movie and play at my own pace, sometimes I want to group up and play a different role and tackle something a bit more challenging. I really don't feel that any game can succeed by leaning too much to either side. WoW had plenty of players who only solo'd, and it was often a negative experience when they finally did come in contact with some people. Guild war's heros and henchmen let me go through the entire storyline without another person (I liked the challenge and strategy, but I can see why people don't like that). Vanguard came out as primary grouping, and people didn't jump on that train. FFXI spent years trying to make the game more solo friendly and reduce grind. FFXIV started off pretty group heavy and I think thats one of the reasons that people left.

When you make grouping inherently better, you're going to alienate other players. And so heres the part I'd love some feedback/opinions on. If grouping produced equal, or moderately higher returns (say 5-10% higher, enough that it doesn't become 'the way'), would that be enough for people? Or do you guys really want a group focused game with an option to solo. (i guess this pertains to ideal, and/or FFXIV)
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#308 Jan 25 2011 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
When you make grouping inherently better, you're going to alienate other players.


Well, this "equal" approach of WoW alienated me. You're not going to have a win/win situation because the system is never equal for everyone. And WoW already offers the alternative if that's what you prefer.

Edited, Jan 26th 2011 2:02am by Hyanmen
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#309 Jan 25 2011 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:

When you make grouping inherently better, you're going to alienate other players. And so heres the part I'd love some feedback/opinions on. If grouping produced equal, or moderately higher returns (say 5-10% higher, enough that it doesn't become 'the way'), would that be enough for people? Or do you guys really want a group focused game with an option to solo. (i guess this pertains to ideal, and/or FFXIV)


Yeah I would be happy with even a moderately higher potential for groups. I think 10% would be enough a reward for the trouble it takes to put together a group and form a strategy. I do think that grouping IS harder than soloing cause you need to depend on one another, look for members, gather together, etc. so I think there needs to be at least a small reward for enough people to consider doing it.

If you make the game totally cater to soloers it hurts people who like to group. I'd like to see a solution where people who hate grouping can play - without making it so people who want to group will never be able to find one because soloing is more efficient.
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#310 Jan 25 2011 at 5:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
@ Olorinus and knockturnal

Just remember, Casual solo friendly = BIG BUCKS!
Must have party in order to GRIND = Loose of revenue!


Okay can you explain this to me? I am not the most business savy person and I've only played XI, so I really can't compare.

Aurelius wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
Aurelius wrote:


And when you get an opportunity to see things from a developer's point of view, they actually start to make sense.



Dude, seriously, are you privy to more interviews and direct interaction with developers any more than us? I seriously doubt it. The difference between you and most people here, is you continue believe that you're interpretation is the only correct interpretation, despite the comments coming directly from the man who matters most right now - Yoshi-P.


I've been right way, way more than I've been wrong here. So ya, apparently I've got SOMETHING going on that makes me more knowledgeable than you, now were you going to argue some points of your own like a grown-up or are you just going to duck and hide and come up with a new spin on the, "Well...well...YOU DON'T KNOW FOR SURE!!" line every post?

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Aurelius, I can tell you're not an idiot, you communicate well enough for me to believe you're a rather sound guy. Swallow your pride once, it won't kill you to be wrong. It's one thing that you believe something different than some of us, or your "theories" might be right and ours wrong, but you continue to incessantly spew it out as if you're 100% correct. News Flash - you don't know any better than any of us, no matter how well you think you do.


I'm not wrong until you prove me wrong and you're not even close so get on it or get off it.


Can we just get over the e-peens everyone? Seriously! I don't want to put everyone to shame with mine :P Jking :)

KujaKoF wrote:
It sounds to me like a lot of people don't just want grouping to be effective, they want FFXI style grouping to be not only effective, but also the best option.


Yeah, it's because of that why I am so fearful of the big changes...so scared that for those that wish for solo/duo, that it will be wiped out.

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
It sounds to me like a lot of people don't just want grouping to be effective, they want FFXI style grouping to be not only effective, but also the best option.


In order to make up for the lost time, making a party - assembling - deciding on strategy - peak SP from a party should be higher than peak SP from soloing. It doesn't need to be astronomically higher - but if soloing is the best option - then only people hellbent on partying will party.

You need to make partying give slightly better SP in order to make up for the time (away from gaining SP) that it takes to put one together. Even if you get exactly the same SP/hr as soloing - then you lose with a party.

That doesn't mean SP should be bad for soloers... and in fact I hope it is tuned so "good" soloing is generally better than a "bad" party, SP-wise. However - a good party SHOULD get better SP than a good soloer - even if only because a good party is more difficult - thus should get better rewards - but mostly because if good soloing is the same or better than good partying then partying will stay broken.

Besides, soloers already have advantages - such as they get to keep all crystal/shards and drops - whereas in parties you split the loot.

Edited, Jan 25th 2011 11:05am by Olorinus


<3 you Olo, words right out of my mouth!

Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
That doesn't mean SP should be bad for soloers... and in fact I hope it is tuned so "good" soloing is generally better than a "bad" party, SP-wise. However - a good party SHOULD get better SP than a good soloer - even if only because a good party is more difficult - thus should get better rewards - but mostly because if good soloing is the same or better than good partying then partying will stay broken.


Yeah, that was the biggest problem with FFXI in terms of solo vs party is that for the longest time, even a sh*tty party was better xp than soloing, and some classes were flat out incapable of soloing at all.


Yeah you remember those days too? And you are right, XI has come a long way with making soloing/duoing easier, but it still sucks for those just starting out. Again you have to solo the "right" jobs with the "right" subjobs for it to be even worth while.
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#311 Jan 25 2011 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm a little late on this, but the niche SE should be aiming at with FFXIV is not the hardcore group grindan niche, rather the Final Fantasy fan niche. Those are not necessarily the same thing, and it looks like Yoshi P seems to get that.

Look at this way: for every person that played FFXI, there were probably another two or three that wanted to get into it but were turned off because it was an extremely inaccessible game. And I'm gonna go out on a limb here and also say that the overwhelming majority of the people who played FFXI didn't like the objective-less group grind and simply put up with it because they found other parts of the game enjoyable.
#312 Jan 25 2011 at 5:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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KujaKoF wrote:


When you make grouping inherently better, you're going to alienate other players. And so heres the part I'd love some feedback/opinions on. If grouping produced equal, or moderately higher returns (say 5-10% higher, enough that it doesn't become 'the way'), would that be enough for people? Or do you guys really want a group focused game with an option to solo. (i guess this pertains to ideal, and/or FFXIV)



As long as they manage to find the right balance to keep people interested in partying. Is 10% more SP/EXP worth losing on 5/6th of the shards/loot monsters drop? There are many ways they could use to try and balance things, and honestly, even if things were completely equal, I would still prefer to party personally. I just know I'd have an incredibly hard time finding people to play with. There absolutely needs to be some kind of incentive behind party play, or it simply won't work out. Can be more SP/EXP, can be different loot/shard drops. They could bring back something like beastman/kindred seals that drop exclusively in parties and that are used to unlock additional party based challenges. Could be some form of skill-ups like someone else mentionned.

I'm really not a fan of the group vs mob group mentality. I don't like the AoE toggle (and the fact I can't use it with a controller). Being able to AoE all my cure spells and magic spells for no penalty of any kind just feels blah... It's no wonder the classes all feel so similar when everyone can just AoE spam sacrifice/cure and pretty much keep themselves alive with or without a dedicated healer.

What I am not against, is quality group mission/questing. I really like the story so far from both my class quests and the main storyline, but it's all so pathetically easy it takes away the fun from it. Needs more battlefields/group-oriented missions and goals. If they made battle leves that are exclusively aimed at groups, with a bigger challenge and better rewards, that don't take 2 minutes to complete, I'm sure it would be popular content. This might be what Faction leves are supposed to be, but frankly the few I've done solo were no harder than regular leves.

If you add leves that are specifically tuned for solo players, and some for groups of various size, and pair that with a solid grouping system + the solo friendliness of the game as it is, I think most people would be satisfied.
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#313 Jan 25 2011 at 5:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wolfums wrote:
I'm a little late on this, but the niche SE should be aiming at with FFXIV is not the hardcore group grindan niche, rather the Final Fantasy fan niche. Those are not necessarily the same thing, and it looks like Yoshi P seems to get that.

Look at this way: for every person that played FFXI, there were probably another two or three that wanted to get into it but were turned off because it was an extremely inaccessible game. And I'm gonna go out on a limb here and also say that the overwhelming majority of the people who played FFXI didn't like the objective-less group grind and simply put up with it because they found other parts of the game enjoyable.


I don't necessarily disagree, but XIV is a lot more accessible than XI ever was. So where is that Final Fantasy crowd now, when they need it? They bought the game when it came out, found out it was pretty bad and quit? They read reviews and decided not to even bother? They just raged over the forums about how online Final Fantasy games being numbered entries was the worst offense in the history of video gaming?

They need to win those fans back eventually, but I'm pretty sure it starts with the XI players first and foremost. As to whether they liked the group grinding or simply put up with it, that's up for debate. But I don't think XIV would be worst off by offering solid solo and group play to appease both crowds.
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#314 Jan 25 2011 at 5:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wanted to catch this point:

KujaKoF wrote:
my point was mainly that I'm observing that people are continuously shooting down other grouping ideas, preferring the 6 vs mob style, and generally being against group vs mob group, group questing, or any type of instanced grouping.


For one, I think group vs mob group is pretty fun. Way more fun than group vs 1 mob.

Secondly, I don't care if I'm grinding or questing or doing dungeon instances or circle jerking or what. As long as I'm in a group and I'm getting a good amount of XP, I'm happy.
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#315 Jan 25 2011 at 6:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bruknarr wrote:


I'm really not a fan of the group vs mob group mentality. I don't like the AoE toggle (and the fact I can't use it with a controller). Being able to AoE all my cure spells and magic spells for no penalty of any kind just feels blah... It's no wonder the classes all feel so similar when everyone can just AoE spam sacrifice/cure and pretty much keep themselves alive with or without a dedicated healer.



"Select" button does it for me, weirdly enough it's listed under "emote list/stack battle command" in my gamepad config
#316 Jan 25 2011 at 6:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bruknarr wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree, but XIV is a lot more accessible than XI ever was. So where is that Final Fantasy crowd now, when they need it? They bought the game when it came out, found out it was pretty bad and quit? They read reviews and decided not to even bother? They just raged over the forums about how online Final Fantasy games being numbered entries was the worst offense in the history of video gaming?

They need to win those fans back eventually, but I'm pretty sure it starts with the XI players first and foremost. As to whether they liked the group grinding or simply put up with it, that's up for debate. But I don't think XIV would be worst off by offering solid solo and group play to appease both crowds.


Well... FFXIV does not feel very Final Fantasy esque. The class names are weird, there is no story that immediately sticks out at you after the opening cut scene, the world is hard to explore, the monsters lowbies see are uninspiring, and there's no villain in sight. It's why the #1 poll result for what people wanted to see most was more quest-like content.

On top of that, the game is plenty unintuitive, especially for those that never played FFXI.

SE is not going to win fans back by simply throwing in a grinding system. They're going to win them back by making the game easy to pick up (and maybe hard to master), by putting in compelling NPC characters and story lines, and something interesting to hook people with.

The grind is NOT what most people consider a good part of FFXI.
#317 Jan 25 2011 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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northernsky wrote:

"Select" button does it for me, weirdly enough it's listed under "emote list/stack battle command" in my gamepad config


Good to know, I'll have to try that out! Thanks for the info!
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#318 Jan 25 2011 at 6:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wolfums wrote:
Bruknarr wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree, but XIV is a lot more accessible than XI ever was. So where is that Final Fantasy crowd now, when they need it? They bought the game when it came out, found out it was pretty bad and quit? They read reviews and decided not to even bother? They just raged over the forums about how online Final Fantasy games being numbered entries was the worst offense in the history of video gaming?

They need to win those fans back eventually, but I'm pretty sure it starts with the XI players first and foremost. As to whether they liked the group grinding or simply put up with it, that's up for debate. But I don't think XIV would be worst off by offering solid solo and group play to appease both crowds.


Well... FFXIV does not feel very Final Fantasy esque. The class names are weird, there is no story that immediately sticks out at you after the opening cut scene, the world is hard to explore, the monsters lowbies see are uninspiring, and there's no villain in sight. It's why the #1 poll result for what people wanted to see most was more quest-like content.

On top of that, the game is plenty unintuitive, especially for those that never played FFXI.

SE is not going to win fans back by simply throwing in a grinding system. They're going to win them back by making the game easy to pick up (and maybe hard to master), by putting in compelling NPC characters and story lines, and something interesting to hook people with.

The grind is NOT what most people consider a good part of FFXI.


I half disagree. Many people enjoyed the grind in XI, but they didn't enjoy XI -because of- the group grind, they enjoyed that aspect of the game as a whole.

Buying an MMORPG with group grinding because you like group grinding is like buying a car with an MP3 player because you like MP3 players. Yes, it's a nice feature if you like it, but there are far more efficient ways to get it, and there are many more important aspects you need to consider before your purchase than that.
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#319 Jan 25 2011 at 6:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Wolfums wrote:
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and also say that the overwhelming majority of the people who played FFXI didn't like the objective-less group grind and simply put up with it because they found other parts of the game enjoyable.


You contradict yourself. The group grind of FFXI had an objective. It was either to become able to take down more content, or do a better job on said content. Many also just wanted to create incredibly powerful characters. It doesn't matter too much how we grind out the exp. I hope a system is created that makes it as interesting as possible, and gives us some options other than "Party Onry".

I'd welcome the party play from XI. The difference in the XIV system so far is that you wouldn't necessarily need six people to fill the typical responsibilities since all the jobs are so versatile now. I'd also welcome other ways to grind. I'd probably grind more on what I found most interesting, but I'm sure I use other options if they were available as well.
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#320 Jan 25 2011 at 6:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I half disagree. Many people enjoyed the grind in XI, but they didn't enjoy XI -because of- the group grind, they enjoyed that aspect of the game as a whole.

Buying an MMORPG with group grinding because you like group grinding is like buying a car with an MP3 player because you like MP3 players. Yes, it's a nice feature if you like it, but there are far more efficient ways to get it, and there are many more important aspects you need to consider before your purchase than that.


Does that mean you half agree with me? =D

The bottom line is, SE should not make group grinding the only way to level in FFXIV (as some people seem to want). That's only going to drive away a lot of people.
#321 Jan 25 2011 at 6:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wolfums wrote:

Well... FFXIV does not feel very Final Fantasy esque. The class names are weird, there is no story that immediately sticks out at you after the opening cut scene, the world is hard to explore, the monsters lowbies see are uninspiring, and there's no villain in sight. It's why the #1 poll result for what people wanted to see most was more quest-like content.

On top of that, the game is plenty unintuitive, especially for those that never played FFXI.

SE is not going to win fans back by simply throwing in a grinding system. They're going to win them back by making the game easy to pick up (and maybe hard to master), by putting in compelling NPC characters and story lines, and something interesting to hook people with.

The grind is NOT what most people consider a good part of FFXI.


The game is pretty easy to pick up right now, no? I mean once you get over the lack of tutorial and get going, there's nothing really hard to do even as a new player. My biggest fear is that most of those people have already tried the game out and written it off as a failure, with no plans to try it again in the near future.

I totally agree they need more than a grinding system. No one plays an MMO for the grind alone, yet it's an integral part at the very base of the game. They need to figure a way to make it fun and not just barely tolerable. Else people will give up before even reaching the content they add in the game, kinda like what's going on right now. Mindless button mashing won't cut it in the long run. They have an upward battle ahead no matter what they decide to go with at this point. Trust is hard to gain but easy to betray.
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#322 Jan 25 2011 at 6:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wolfums wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I half disagree. Many people enjoyed the grind in XI, but they didn't enjoy XI -because of- the group grind, they enjoyed that aspect of the game as a whole.

Buying an MMORPG with group grinding because you like group grinding is like buying a car with an MP3 player because you like MP3 players. Yes, it's a nice feature if you like it, but there are far more efficient ways to get it, and there are many more important aspects you need to consider before your purchase than that.


Does that mean you half agree with me? =D

The bottom line is, SE should not make group grinding the only way to level in FFXIV (as some people seem to want). That's only going to drive away a lot of people.


Yes, I half agree :)

While I -personally- prefer group grinding, I believe that:

- Group activity should not be limited to JUST grinding
- Grouping should be preferred, but NOT at the cost of making soloing inhospitable.

Grouping should be emphasized enough that people will want to group, and that people will be unlikely to just solo to the cap because the effort and time required to party with others is a barrier to them, however, I feel that soloing should still be a viable option such that anyone can decide "I really don't want to join a party today", whether it's because they don't have time, or because they know they will have to afk too frequently, or even because they just want a break from partying, and they can solo instead without feeling like Sisyphus.

That's my opinion. I'm sure I'll have people on either side of the argument who would disagree, and they're entitled to their opinion as well.

I -do- think the game could use a little more involved of a tutorial, but with the option to skip the tutorial as well. Some players seem to take to new games slower than others, and tutorials have come to be commonly expected in most current gen MMOGs, so if SE is trying to entice people to come play their game, the lack of a tutorial is going to make many give up and quit before they really get a change to decide if they like the game or not based on the ACTUAL merits of the game.
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#323 Jan 25 2011 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
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265 posts
i never understood why so many people are paranoid that if they added effecient group grind that suddenly solo would go away...its not like leves or doblyns will suddenly poof. I think way too many people are going straight to oldschool FFXI thoughts and why...im not sure. Not even FFXI is half that restrictive anymore so why would they do that to this game?
#324 Jan 25 2011 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
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Because there are those out there who believe that FFXI grind is the only and true way and should be brought back, I think that is why some worry. Just a thought.
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#325 Jan 25 2011 at 10:04 PM Rating: Decent
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447 posts
LillithaFenimore wrote:
Because there are those out there who believe that FFXI grind is the only and true way and should be brought back, I think that is why some worry. Just a thought.


I haven't seen one person who wants the group play/grind back ask SE to nerf solo. You guys seem to keep that stuck in your head though.
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#326 Jan 25 2011 at 10:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
KnocturnalOne wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:
Because there are those out there who believe that FFXI grind is the only and true way and should be brought back, I think that is why some worry. Just a thought.


I haven't seen one person who wants the group play/grind back ask SE to nerf solo. You guys seem to keep that stuck in your head though.


Not to belittle your point, but I think there was like one guy who did come out and say that he thought soloing should be nerfed to **** and that partying should be the only option. And as I recall, people on both sides (people who prefer solo and people who prefer partying) essentially told him where to shove it as he got rated down to oblivion.

Other than that though, yeah, nearly everyone who wants more party play has either not said anything about solo play or directly come out and said they want solo to be left the way it is.
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#327cornyboob, Posted: Jan 25 2011 at 11:18 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Bring it back with the current SP as a base so you cant ever get 0 unless your a total leech on auto follow.
#328 Jan 25 2011 at 11:46 PM Rating: Decent
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134 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
I highly doubt there are enough people who want to grind in a party as the primary source of EXP/SP to sustain a subscription game.

You mean like FFXI or Everquest?
#329 Jan 25 2011 at 11:59 PM Rating: Default
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2,202 posts
LillithaFenimore wrote:
Ostia wrote:
@ Olorinus and knockturnal

Just remember, Casual solo friendly = BIG BUCKS!
Must have party in order to GRIND = Loose of revenue!


Okay can you explain this to me? I am not the most business savy person and I've only played XI, so I really can't compare.


The most casual solo friendly MMO in the market is WOW with 12million+ Subscriptions
FFXI a party grind MMO never even made a 1mil mark of Subs in 8yrs of it's life.




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#330 Jan 26 2011 at 7:44 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:
Ostia wrote:
@ Olorinus and knockturnal

Just remember, Casual solo friendly = BIG BUCKS!
Must have party in order to GRIND = Loose of revenue!


Okay can you explain this to me? I am not the most business savy person and I've only played XI, so I really can't compare.


The most casual solo friendly MMO in the market is WOW with 12million+ Subscriptions
FFXI a party grind MMO never even made a 1mil mark of Subs in 8yrs of it's life.






and again WoW is the only solo quest grind game to keep over a mil at a time, the tons of others out there that thought the same thing (and there is a lot of them, with plenty more coming) have not even scratched those #s. Why take the risk of being yet another of many when you have a pretty much garunteed auidence sitting there...which are obviously a solid amount.

so risk being yet another solo fest?
or take the garunteed money?

il take the deal Howy.
#331 Jan 26 2011 at 8:12 AM Rating: Decent
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447 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:
Because there are those out there who believe that FFXI grind is the only and true way and should be brought back, I think that is why some worry. Just a thought.


I haven't seen one person who wants the group play/grind back ask SE to nerf solo. You guys seem to keep that stuck in your head though.


Not to belittle your point, but I think there was like one guy who did come out and say that he thought soloing should be nerfed to **** and that partying should be the only option. And as I recall, people on both sides (people who prefer solo and people who prefer partying) essentially told him where to shove it as he got rated down to oblivion.

Other than that though, yeah, nearly everyone who wants more party play has either not said anything about solo play or directly come out and said they want solo to be left the way it is.


I must have missed that one. I know I sure don't want them to nerf solo play even though I want a much better emphasis on party play. And for the record, I am all for new creative ways to party, not just the traditional FFXI grind. I'd love to see roaming group vs group battles (would love playing a role that specializes in mob control for example), etc.

I just think for those of us who prefer the old style party play, it's much easier for us to compare to the FFXI style obviously, but that doesn't mean we're not open to other creative ways to party. At least I am.

I'm bookmarking this link and throwing a reminder on my calendar in a year to revisit this thread and compare everyones vision to where we think the game was heading (now) to where it went (then). Should be fun!!!

____________________________
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FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#332 Jan 26 2011 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
Ostia wrote:
@ Olorinus and knockturnal

You guys seem to be missing the BIG point, wish is that this game will not, can not, and is not, going to survive with the current player base Period. SE must target the big casual audience if the hope for their game to survive, and eventually turn a profit, and for them to try and turn things around so that party play is as good or better than solo play, resources would need to be diverted from somewhere, and right now, they need to keep all their staff and resources on fixing this sinking ship :)

Just remember, Casual solo friendly = BIG BUCKS!
Must have party in order to GRIND = Loose of revenue!


zanfire wrote:
Ostia wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:
Ostia wrote:
@ Olorinus and knockturnal

Just remember, Casual solo friendly = BIG BUCKS!
Must have party in order to GRIND = Loose of revenue!


Okay can you explain this to me? I am not the most business savy person and I've only played XI, so I really can't compare.


The most casual solo friendly MMO in the market is WOW with 12million+ Subscriptions
FFXI a party grind MMO never even made a 1mil mark of Subs in 8yrs of it's life.






and again WoW is the only solo quest grind game to keep over a mil at a time, the tons of others out there that thought the same thing (and there is a lot of them, with plenty more coming) have not even scratched those #s. Why take the risk of being yet another of many when you have a pretty much garunteed auidence sitting there...which are obviously a solid amount.

so risk being yet another solo fest?
or take the garunteed money?

il take the deal Howy.


And why would we again want another WOW?
I am telling you, FFXIV is not casual friendly!!! (Leves take foever)
I actually got more done in FFXI in a day even on my Puppetmaster than I do on FFXIV in a week.

I loved seeking for people to my party, asking random people and making new friends on the way.
Someone should make a poll if we should get FFXI style partying back :)
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#333 Jan 26 2011 at 8:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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LeilaniWildfire wrote:
I loved seeking for people to my party, asking random people and making new friends on the way.
Someone should make a poll if we should get FFXI style partying back :)


Challenge accepted.
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#334 Jan 26 2011 at 8:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
The vocal minority ruins MMOs if a developer listens too closely to them. Not trying to be mean guy, but it's the truth. People only stand up when they feel the urge to complain. In a sea of 100,000 people, if 1% of those people have a gripe they can seem very, very loud in an awful hurry. In a thread labeled as this one is, it wouldn't surprise me that you'd get a polarized response and given that these boards are now largely dominated by FFXI expats, it only makes sense that they'd call for what they're familiar with. Doesn't make it something the devs should be paying close attention to.


At the moment the vocal minority is all there's left in this game.

Btw, while they are at it, they should not only bring back the "old"
leveling styles, but also the old development team. E.g. the story-
writers that made Chrono Trigger.

I hope you guys don't take it as an offense, but I think one of the
main reasons SE has lost so much during the last decade is because
it increasingly tried to cater to what they perceived to be the
"western taste".

For some strange reason they don't seem to realize that the one thing
that earned them their strong niche in the so-called west was their
"non-western" focus on stories of friendship, cooperation and sacrifice.
On party play.


Edited, Jan 26th 2011 10:00am by Rinsui
#335 Jan 26 2011 at 10:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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zanfire wrote:
and again WoW is the only solo quest grind game to keep over a mil at a time, the tons of others out there that thought the same thing (and there is a lot of them, with plenty more coming) have not even scratched those #s. Why take the risk of being yet another of many when you have a pretty much garunteed auidence sitting there...which are obviously a solid amount.


I second that. WoW came out with the right setup at the right time. And many publishers still think they can roll in the big money if they make something similar. And we get loads of clones that bring nothing new or innovative to attract players.

That's why I want FFXIV to be successful, no WoW killer or 10 million subscribers MMO, just successful enough to have a healthy playerbase. Because it's something different and innovative, even if it's in kinda bad shape at the moment.

But what FFXIV needs is a good party system and something to do for groups. You can solo pretty well already which is a good thing for players with limited time like myself. But if I have more time on my hands I'd like to gather some friends or join a group to get that feeling of fellowship I had in XI...and get good SP of course ^^
This doesn't mean people who did like the leveling style of FFXI want this game to turn into a grindfest! But we should be able to if we want.
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#336 Jan 26 2011 at 10:20 AM Rating: Default
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zanfire wrote:
Ostia wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:
Ostia wrote:
@ Olorinus and knockturnal

Just remember, Casual solo friendly = BIG BUCKS!
Must have party in order to GRIND = Loose of revenue!


Okay can you explain this to me? I am not the most business savy person and I've only played XI, so I really can't compare.


The most casual solo friendly MMO in the market is WOW with 12million+ Subscriptions
FFXI a party grind MMO never even made a 1mil mark of Subs in 8yrs of it's life.






and again WoW is the only solo quest grind game to keep over a mil at a time, the tons of others out there that thought the same thing (and there is a lot of them, with plenty more coming) have not even scratched those #s. Why take the risk of being yet another of many when you have a pretty much garunteed auidence sitting there...which are obviously a solid amount.

so risk being yet another solo fest?
or take the garunteed money?

il take the deal Howy.


Why would you invest a huge amount of money and resources building a next gen MMO for a very small % of the MMORPG population ? Specially when you already got one out, that caters to that audience..... That's just STUPID!

In those 5 years they could have done any number of projects that dint suck as bad as this one, and as far as guaranteed audiences goes, this game does not has the support of the FFXI crowd, not even at launch it had more players than FFXI currently has, so yeah BIG support there from the FFXI crowd XD!



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#337 Jan 26 2011 at 10:27 AM Rating: Default
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RidingBean wrote:
zanfire wrote:
and again WoW is the only solo quest grind game to keep over a mil at a time, the tons of others out there that thought the same thing (and there is a lot of them, with plenty more coming) have not even scratched those #s. Why take the risk of being yet another of many when you have a pretty much garunteed auidence sitting there...which are obviously a solid amount.


I second that. WoW came out with the right setup at the right time. And many publishers still think they can roll in the big money if they make something similar. And we get loads of clones that bring nothing new or innovative to attract players.

That's why I want FFXIV to be successful, no WoW killer or 10 million subscribers MMO, just successful enough to have a healthy playerbase. Because it's something different and innovative, even if it's in kinda bad shape at the moment.

But what FFXIV needs is a good party system and something to do for groups. You can solo pretty well already which is a good thing for players with limited time like myself. But if I have more time on my hands I'd like to gather some friends or join a group to get that feeling of fellowship I had in XI...and get good SP of course ^^
This doesn't mean people who did like the leveling style of FFXI want this game to turn into a grindfest! But we should be able to if we want.


Is there a feature in place stopping you from grinding mobs to level cap ? serious question......

Oh wait there is not, you guys are just complaining that "Omg solo is easier and gives rewards, nobody wants to party with me :( " Well if they dont wanna party and grind like you do, maybe they have different priorities ? Aren't people that like grinding and party, gonna grind and party anyways ? or do you need to take something from somebody else in order to make party and grind enjoyable ?
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#338 Jan 26 2011 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Oh wait there is not, you guys are just complaining that "Omg solo is easier and gives rewards, nobody wants to party with me :( " Well if they dont wanna party and grind like you do, maybe they have different priorities ? Aren't people that like grinding and party, gonna grind and party anyways ? or do you need to take something from somebody else in order to make party and grind enjoyable ?


Actually... yes. Some things have to be impossible to solo, or even the party-play people would solo it out of convenience. Which doesn't mean they will have more "grand total" fun soloing it. They just chose the simplest way to reach their (perceived) distal goal to "finish" the grinding.

Sounds illogical? Maybe. You may blame the mindsets of those players, but it's a reality nonetheless. Humans are not about logic. Or at least, their perception and reward delay tolerance mechanisms are not geared in that way. That's where I am happy game developers build in artifical barriers to satisfy those of their player's wishes those players are unaware of, or unable to maintain as a guiding principle by themselves.

(...)

Not sure whether I made myself understood?
#339 Jan 26 2011 at 11:15 AM Rating: Decent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:
Because there are those out there who believe that FFXI grind is the only and true way and should be brought back, I think that is why some worry. Just a thought.


I haven't seen one person who wants the group play/grind back ask SE to nerf solo. You guys seem to keep that stuck in your head though.


I've seen people suggesting that party play be so much more rewarded that it would likely act as an indirect nerf by comparator to solo play. You are right that nobody has suggested that soloing get any worse, they've just asked that partying be infinitely better.



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#340 Jan 26 2011 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
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3,416 posts
Quote:
I've seen people suggesting that party play be so much more rewarded that it would likely act as an indirect nerf by comparator to solo play.


Otherwise we won't party. It's in our culture.
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#341 Jan 26 2011 at 11:38 AM Rating: Default
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
Oh wait there is not, you guys are just complaining that "Omg solo is easier and gives rewards, nobody wants to party with me :( " Well if they dont wanna party and grind like you do, maybe they have different priorities ? Aren't people that like grinding and party, gonna grind and party anyways ? or do you need to take something from somebody else in order to make party and grind enjoyable ?


Actually... yes. Some things have to be impossible to solo, or even the party-play people would solo it out of convenience. Which doesn't mean they will have more "grand total" fun soloing it. They just chose the simplest way to reach their (perceived) distal goal to "finish" the grinding.

Sounds illogical? Maybe. You may blame the mindsets of those players, but it's a reality nonetheless. Humans are not about logic. Or at least, their perception and reward delay tolerance mechanisms are not geared in that way. That's where I am happy game developers build in artifical barriers to satisfy those of their player's wishes those players are unaware of, or unable to maintain as a guiding principle by themselves.

(...)

Not sure whether I made myself understood?


I understand what you are saying, but SE needs to understand this question and answer it

Do they cave in and please the small % of players that would quit if party play is not 50X better than solo?
Or do they fix this game up, add content, and make everybody else happy ? meanwhile targeting the big chunk of the casual player base ?

So far this game has no identity, and nobody knows where is going, is it a casual game ? is it a grind fest ? where is SE gonna take it ? nobody knows, all we get is "We are looking at this and that, and updates are coming", but no definitive answers have been laid out.
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#342 Jan 26 2011 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
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1,636 posts
I think some people are forgetting, the whole is there enough content thing came about because the game was nothing but parties for EXP or, soloing at awful rates (basically what FFXI was without sidequests). I know there are lots of people who like parties for party EXP sake, but a lot of people don't, and I don't think the game can possibly improve by going back to that.
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#343 Jan 26 2011 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I know there are lots of people who like parties for party EXP sake, but a lot of people don't


So why do you think SE should choose those who don't instead of those who do like it?
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#344 Jan 26 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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1,636 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I know there are lots of people who like parties for party EXP sake, but a lot of people don't


So why do you think SE should choose those who don't instead of those who do like it?


To be blunt, because they're worth more money, and because SE targeted a casual audience with this game. In doing so, its a pretty crappy move to say "yeah totally its for you, but its for these guys more".
____________________________


#345 Jan 26 2011 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
Ostia wrote:

I understand what you are saying, but SE needs to understand this question and answer it

Do they cave in and please the small % of players that would quit if party play is not 50X better than solo?
Or do they fix this game up, add content, and make everybody else happy ? meanwhile targeting the big chunk of the casual player base ?



Poll suggests majority wants partying back. No one in this thread is asking for 50X better than solo... Just enough better than solo to make up for the time sink of forming a party.

____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#346 Jan 26 2011 at 12:39 PM Rating: Default
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3,416 posts
Quote:
To be blunt, because they're worth more money, and because SE targeted a casual audience with this game. In doing so, its a pretty crappy move to say "yeah totally its for you, but its for these guys more".


I'd like to hear why you think these two things:

A) grouping can't be casual

B) soloers are worth more money

because they are quite some assumptions you have there...
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#347 Jan 26 2011 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I know there are lots of people who like parties for party EXP sake, but a lot of people don't


So why do you think SE should choose those who don't instead of those who do like it?


To be blunt, because they're worth more money, and because SE targeted a casual audience with this game. In doing so, its a pretty crappy move to say "yeah totally its for you, but its for these guys more".


Who says causals can't party? Also who says people who don't like to party worth more money? You're just making crap up.

Also I don't buy your line that if there was a party SP bonus that made partying worthwhile it makes soloing horrible - soloing should be slower than partying. As long as you can still make good time, who cares?

It looks like the people who actually play this game/want to play this game want to party - do you honestly think SE can make more money by targeting an imaginary "majority" that wants a solo only game rather than the REAL majority who ARE playing their game and want to have a game it is worth inviting their friends to play?

God, you must not actually be in marketing - cause if you were you would know it is crazy to alienate your ACTUAL REAL playerbase in favour of targeting some other imaginary one.



____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#348 Jan 26 2011 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
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1,636 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I know there are lots of people who like parties for party EXP sake, but a lot of people don't


So why do you think SE should choose those who don't instead of those who do like it?


To be blunt, because they're worth more money, and because SE targeted a casual audience with this game. In doing so, its a pretty crappy move to say "yeah totally its for you, but its for these guys more".


Who says causals can't party? Also who says people who don't like to party worth more money? You're just making crap up.

Also I don't buy your line that if there was a party SP bonus that made partying worthwhile it makes soloing horrible - soloing should be slower than partying. As long as you can still make good time, who cares?

It looks like the people who actually play this game/want to play this game want to party - do you honestly think SE can make more money by targeting an imaginary "majority" that wants a solo only game rather than the REAL majority who ARE playing their game and want to have a game it is worth inviting their friends to play?

God, you must not actually be in marketing - cause if you were you would know it is crazy to alienate your ACTUAL REAL playerbase in favour of targeting some other imaginary one.


As far as more money, I don't KNOW anymore than you do. But I can look at the success of party geared games to solo geared games. Games where the solo vs party leveling speed are roughly equal have turned this from a million dollar industry, into a billion dollar industry. Again, I'll cite the current games with heavy party focus are not doing as well as those are not, and I'll point out that FFXI has made far more moves away from heavy partying since release than towards it. I'll point out that FFXIV was attempting to move away from that system.

You're argument is that if soloing is worthwhile partying is horrible, nobody will do it. That in itself implies that enough people don't like partying that they will only do it if its more rewarded.

Honestly, I dont think soloing SHOULD be slower than partying. I've pointed out, it takes roughly the same amount of effort to solo something, as it does to defeat as a group something that was designed to be defeated as a group. Why do I care if soloing is equal, its the same reason why you think grouping should be better, its what I'd like to see. Again, I would like grouping to be viable, but I don't want it to be better, I don't want it to be in the FFXIV fashion, I'd rather see a grouping system that works better with the systems the game already has in place.



____________________________


#349 Jan 26 2011 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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9,526 posts
It is all about markets man...

For example

Happy Planet is a juice company that makes organic juices. They make less money than Sun Rype, a company that makes non organic juices.

Do you really think that Happy Planet would make more money simply by switching to making non organic juices?

I think what would happen is Happy Planet would lose money because their customer base wants organic juices. So while the non organic juice market may be bigger than the organic juice market - that doesn't mean it is automatically better to target the bigger market. You have to think about your brand.

It is the same with partying and the final fantasy MMO brand. Yes, many successful mmos are not party focused. But the question for SE is not whether more MMO players like soloing or not - but about whether more FINAL FANTASY mmo players like soloing.

Yes, it is good to try to bring people to your brand - but you have to remember that solo play is only 1 aspect of a brand. There are also things like lore, art style, etc. People who like gore, for example - or playing an evil character - or faction based PvP or (insert feature XIV will never have here) will not come to Final Fantasy regardless.

The key for SE is to play to their strengths - targeting the largest market isn't actually the best way for companies to reach their full market potential.





Edited, Jan 26th 2011 11:09am by Olorinus
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#350 Jan 26 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Default
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3,416 posts
Quote:
But I can look at the success of party geared games to solo geared games.


Party geared games designed for the hardcore audience vs. solo geared games designed for the casual audience, in other words.

Yes, casuals bring in more money. No, FFXI was not designed for casuals. Yes, casual grouping is possible but hasn't been properly done yet.

Quote:
I'll point out that FFXIV was attempting to move away from that system.


FFXIV is in fact trying to get away from hardcore grouping, which doesn't suddenly translate to soloing.

Quote:
That in itself implies that enough people don't like partying that they will only do it if its more rewarded.


It has very little to do with whether we like it or not. Our culture has taught us to be individualistic. We don't socialize with strangers without an agenda, which doesn't mean that we don't like it.
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#351 Jan 26 2011 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:

Quote:
That in itself implies that enough people don't like partying that they will only do it if its more rewarded.


It has very little to do with whether we like it or not. Our culture has taught us to be individualistic. We don't socialize with strangers without an agenda, which doesn't mean that we don't like it.


It is also about efficiency - even if parties gain more SP than soloing there will still be instances where soloing is MORE efficient than grouping. I soloed all the time in XI, which was way less solo-friendly than XIV. Making partying better doesn't take away options for soloers.

If parties and soloing nets the same SP - there will never be a situation where it is more efficient to party than to solo. Which means the vast majority of people will never/rarely party.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


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