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#352 Jan 26 2011 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
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3,416 posts
Quote:
Making partying better doesn't take away options for soloers.


However, the grind will be designed with the fastest exp gain method in mind. Which in this case would be grouping. And if grouping for exp is "acceptable", then soloing is... not so much. In that way, it takes away enjoyment from soloers, who have to do more work than "acceptable" to get there.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#353 Jan 26 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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447 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
But I can look at the success of party geared games to solo geared games.


Party geared games designed for the hardcore audience vs. solo geared games designed for the casual audience, in other words.

Yes, casuals bring in more money. No, FFXI was not designed for casuals. Yes, casual grouping is possible but hasn't been properly done yet.

Quote:
I'll point out that FFXIV was attempting to move away from that system.


FFXIV is in fact trying to get away from hardcore grouping, which doesn't suddenly translate to soloing.

Quote:
That in itself implies that enough people don't like partying that they will only do it if its more rewarded.


It has very little to do with whether we like it or not. Our culture has taught us to be individualistic. We don't socialize with strangers without an agenda, which doesn't mean that we don't like it.


You're basing your facts off one hugely successful game (WoW) and assuming that the only element that that mattered in terms of bringing in more players/$$$ is solo vs party play. A couple things you should consider - a) WoW is the only one that has achieved commercial success at that level. Plenty of other games have tried & well, failed! b) You assume that the differentiator for wow was it's solo appeal only. Now, I only played WoW for a short time, but there were I'm sure other aspects people liked about, i.e. better UI, instanced dungeons, etc.

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#354 Jan 26 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Default
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Ostia wrote:

I understand what you are saying, but SE needs to understand this question and answer it

Do they cave in and please the small % of players that would quit if party play is not 50X better than solo?
Or do they fix this game up, add content, and make everybody else happy ? meanwhile targeting the big chunk of the casual player base ?



Poll suggests majority wants partying back. No one in this thread is asking for 50X better than solo... Just enough better than solo to make up for the time sink of forming a party.



If you look at the poll, people that want party and soloing to be equal, outnumber the people that want party to be the main focus and soloing a last option :)

So yeah the majority is not with you as of this moment, however they are up for party play to get other options, be it istance's or W/E Se can conjure up.

Now maybe WOW has treated me to good in this years, but i dont feel the need to party up to level up to cap, want i want a party for is for Istance's, PVP, Raids, END GAME CONTENT!! I'm all for partying up for istances at lower levels as a means to level up, but i'm not for the whole "Party Grind or GTFO"

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#355 Jan 26 2011 at 2:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:


If you look at the poll, people that want party and soloing to be equal, outnumber the people that want party to be the main focus and soloing a last option :)



So you can't compare numbers/count either?

Partying should be the primary focus of the game, with solo only available as a last resort.: 40
I would prefer an equal balance of party and solo play.: 22

Last I checked 40 > 22

And never mind the fact that everyone in this thread who wants parties just about has been calling for solo to still be viable. I voted for soloing to still be viable in that poll.

So I fail to understand what your point is.

Edited, Jan 26th 2011 12:44pm by Olorinus
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#356 Jan 26 2011 at 2:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
You're basing your facts off one hugely successful game (WoW) and assuming that the only element that that mattered in terms of bringing in more players/$$$ is solo vs party play. A couple things you should consider - a) WoW is the only one that has achieved commercial success at that level. Plenty of other games have tried & well, failed! b) You assume that the differentiator for wow was it's solo appeal only. Now, I only played WoW for a short time, but there were I'm sure other aspects people liked about, i.e. better UI, instanced dungeons, etc.


There is a very good point here, and that is that for as successful as WoW is, no game that has every tried to copy WoW has been even half as successful. Nearly every game that copies is is lucky to see 5% of the amount of subscribers WoW has.

Whether you like WoW or not, the point needs to be made that it's all about the total package and the presentation that keeps people play it. The soloing, the partying, the PvP, the PvE, the quests, the raiding, the advertising, the marketing... Everything that goes into the game collectively makes the game as a whole commercially and financially successful. You can't just pick one aspect of the game and say "This reason, and only this reason, is the reason the game is so popular" because it's not as simple as that.

And for all the companies who are trying to beat WoW at their own game (no pun intended) by copying the game, they all fall short because you can't make a game that is more WoW than WoW.

Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't take any features from WoW. There are some features like instanced dungeons and the Dungeon Finder tool that are popular aspects of the game. There are features like mailboxes and an action house that are common components of many successful games, including FFXI.

You can't just summarily state that the presence or absence of soloing or grouping in FFXIV will make or break it, because whether you're alone or with friends, nothing to do is still nothing to do.

The "solo or group" question can be debated at length, but the decision made will not be the sole thing that makes or breaks FFXIV. No matter which direction they go, there are bound to be players who are unhappy with it, but the game needs to be a lot more than just "a solo game" or "a group game" before it can hope to appeal to people. Whether you're alone or with other people, if you aren't having fun and you don't see a point in what you're doing, it really won't matter who you're with.
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#357 Jan 26 2011 at 3:10 PM Rating: Default
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Ostia wrote:


If you look at the poll, people that want party and soloing to be equal, outnumber the people that want party to be the main focus and soloing a last option :)



So you can't compare numbers/count either?

Partying should be the primary focus of the game, with solo only available as a last resort.: 40
I would prefer an equal balance of party and solo play.: 22

Last I checked 40 > 22

And never mind the fact that everyone in this thread who wants parties just about has been calling for solo to still be viable. I voted for soloing to still be viable in that poll.

So I fail to understand what your point is.

Edited, Jan 26th 2011 12:44pm by Olorinus


Sorry if mikhalia made the poll to complicated for you to understand :)

I'm okay if other people want partying options added, just so long as I can still solo without hindrance. 24
Party grinding is okay, but I would prefer other party options such as instanced dungeons. Solo should still be a valid option. 21
I would prefer an equal balance of party and solo play. 22


All the options where soloing should be equal, or viable outnumber party grind and soloing as a last effort. Basically "As long as solo is viable sure add party options IDGAF!"

Last time i checked 67 > 41

L2RP kid.

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#358 Jan 26 2011 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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447 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
You're basing your facts off one hugely successful game (WoW) and assuming that the only element that that mattered in terms of bringing in more players/$$$ is solo vs party play. A couple things you should consider - a) WoW is the only one that has achieved commercial success at that level. Plenty of other games have tried & well, failed! b) You assume that the differentiator for wow was it's solo appeal only. Now, I only played WoW for a short time, but there were I'm sure other aspects people liked about, i.e. better UI, instanced dungeons, etc.


There is a very good point here, and that is that for as successful as WoW is, no game that has every tried to copy WoW has been even half as successful. Nearly every game that copies is is lucky to see 5% of the amount of subscribers WoW has.

Whether you like WoW or not, the point needs to be made that it's all about the total package and the presentation that keeps people play it. The soloing, the partying, the PvP, the PvE, the quests, the raiding, the advertising, the marketing... Everything that goes into the game collectively makes the game as a whole commercially and financially successful. You can't just pick one aspect of the game and say "This reason, and only this reason, is the reason the game is so popular" because it's not as simple as that.

And for all the companies who are trying to beat WoW at their own game (no pun intended) by copying the game, they all fall short because you can't make a game that is more WoW than WoW.

Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't take any features from WoW. There are some features like instanced dungeons and the Dungeon Finder tool that are popular aspects of the game. There are features like mailboxes and an action house that are common components of many successful games, including FFXI.

You can't just summarily state that the presence or absence of soloing or grouping in FFXIV will make or break it, because whether you're alone or with friends, nothing to do is still nothing to do.

The "solo or group" question can be debated at length, but the decision made will not be the sole thing that makes or breaks FFXIV. No matter which direction they go, there are bound to be players who are unhappy with it, but the game needs to be a lot more than just "a solo game" or "a group game" before it can hope to appeal to people. Whether you're alone or with other people, if you aren't having fun and you don't see a point in what you're doing, it really won't matter who you're with.


Yes, 100% on that bro.

Hopefully Yoshi-P will continue to share his vision for the game and rationale behind it over the coming months and we can get all these answers.

How cool would it be for one of us to get an interview with him, so we could get into our own discussion with him?

Edited, Jan 26th 2011 4:14pm by KnocturnalOne
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FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#359 Jan 26 2011 at 3:17 PM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
You're basing your facts off one hugely successful game (WoW) and assuming that the only element that that mattered in terms of bringing in more players/$$$ is solo vs party play. A couple things you should consider - a) WoW is the only one that has achieved commercial success at that level. Plenty of other games have tried & well, failed! b) You assume that the differentiator for wow was it's solo appeal only. Now, I only played WoW for a short time, but there were I'm sure other aspects people liked about, i.e. better UI, instanced dungeons, etc.


There is a very good point here, and that is that for as successful as WoW is, no game that has every tried to copy WoW has been even half as successful. Nearly every game that copies is is lucky to see 5% of the amount of subscribers WoW has.

Whether you like WoW or not, the point needs to be made that it's all about the total package and the presentation that keeps people play it. The soloing, the partying, the PvP, the PvE, the quests, the raiding, the advertising, the marketing... Everything that goes into the game collectively makes the game as a whole commercially and financially successful. You can't just pick one aspect of the game and say "This reason, and only this reason, is the reason the game is so popular" because it's not as simple as that.

And for all the companies who are trying to beat WoW at their own game (no pun intended) by copying the game, they all fall short because you can't make a game that is more WoW than WoW.

Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't take any features from WoW. There are some features like instanced dungeons and the Dungeon Finder tool that are popular aspects of the game. There are features like mailboxes and an action house that are common components of many successful games, including FFXI.

You can't just summarily state that the presence or absence of soloing or grouping in FFXIV will make or break it, because whether you're alone or with friends, nothing to do is still nothing to do.

The "solo or group" question can be debated at length, but the decision made will not be the sole thing that makes or breaks FFXIV. No matter which direction they go, there are bound to be players who are unhappy with it, but the game needs to be a lot more than just "a solo game" or "a group game" before it can hope to appeal to people. Whether you're alone or with other people, if you aren't having fun and you don't see a point in what you're doing, it really won't matter who you're with.


If you where knocking on Rift! I agree, i been trying the beta for the past 2 day's, and for a company that claims their world is not Azeroth, it sure feels like Azeroth <.<
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#360 Jan 26 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
You're basing your facts off one hugely successful game (WoW) and assuming that the only element that that mattered in terms of bringing in more players/$$$ is solo vs party play. A couple things you should consider - a) WoW is the only one that has achieved commercial success at that level. Plenty of other games have tried & well, failed! b) You assume that the differentiator for wow was it's solo appeal only. Now, I only played WoW for a short time, but there were I'm sure other aspects people liked about, i.e. better UI, instanced dungeons, etc.


There is a very good point here, and that is that for as successful as WoW is, no game that has every tried to copy WoW has been even half as successful. Nearly every game that copies is is lucky to see 5% of the amount of subscribers WoW has.

Whether you like WoW or not, the point needs to be made that it's all about the total package and the presentation that keeps people play it. The soloing, the partying, the PvP, the PvE, the quests, the raiding, the advertising, the marketing... Everything that goes into the game collectively makes the game as a whole commercially and financially successful. You can't just pick one aspect of the game and say "This reason, and only this reason, is the reason the game is so popular" because it's not as simple as that.

And for all the companies who are trying to beat WoW at their own game (no pun intended) by copying the game, they all fall short because you can't make a game that is more WoW than WoW.

Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't take any features from WoW. There are some features like instanced dungeons and the Dungeon Finder tool that are popular aspects of the game. There are features like mailboxes and an action house that are common components of many successful games, including FFXI.

You can't just summarily state that the presence or absence of soloing or grouping in FFXIV will make or break it, because whether you're alone or with friends, nothing to do is still nothing to do.

The "solo or group" question can be debated at length, but the decision made will not be the sole thing that makes or breaks FFXIV. No matter which direction they go, there are bound to be players who are unhappy with it, but the game needs to be a lot more than just "a solo game" or "a group game" before it can hope to appeal to people. Whether you're alone or with other people, if you aren't having fun and you don't see a point in what you're doing, it really won't matter who you're with.


Yes, 100% on that bro.

Hopefully Yoshi-P will continue to share his vision for the game and rationale behind it over the coming months and we can get all these answers.

How cool would it be for one of us to get an interview with him, so we could get into our own discussion with him?

Edited, Jan 26th 2011 4:14pm by KnocturnalOne


You touched into something that i really wanna see from SE, Yoshi-P should make an account and talk to the game users, just like blizzard does, i mean i don't LOVE Ghostcrawler, but i appriciate the fact that he takes time out of his life, to sometimes go into the forums and talk, debate, or just be mean to us at times <.<
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#361 Jan 26 2011 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Who says causals can't party?


Thank you Olorinus for bringing this up :)

There seems to be a tendency for the MMO community to following the logic below when it comes to defining "Casual players":

Casual = don't have time to play = prefers to solo

I consider myself to be a “casual” player (as in not caring much about how fast I level & the end-game contents, instead spending time immersing myself in the FF world with friends, etc) who would love to party to socialize/meet new friends/etc… I may indeed not spend nearly as much time on FFXIV as many of the “hardcore” players here, but I also wouldn’t mind investing some of my playing time to LFP or setting one up myself. Though I may be a minority here so...

Personally I would say "Yes" on providing more incentives for players to PT, but not just back paddling and implement whatever we had in FFXI.
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#362 Jan 26 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
You're basing your facts off one hugely successful game (WoW) and assuming that the only element that that mattered in terms of bringing in more players/$$$ is solo vs party play. A couple things you should consider - a) WoW is the only one that has achieved commercial success at that level. Plenty of other games have tried & well, failed! b) You assume that the differentiator for wow was it's solo appeal only. Now, I only played WoW for a short time, but there were I'm sure other aspects people liked about, i.e. better UI, instanced dungeons, etc.


There is a very good point here, and that is that for as successful as WoW is, no game that has every tried to copy WoW has been even half as successful. Nearly every game that copies is is lucky to see 5% of the amount of subscribers WoW has.

Whether you like WoW or not, the point needs to be made that it's all about the total package and the presentation that keeps people play it. The soloing, the partying, the PvP, the PvE, the quests, the raiding, the advertising, the marketing... Everything that goes into the game collectively makes the game as a whole commercially and financially successful. You can't just pick one aspect of the game and say "This reason, and only this reason, is the reason the game is so popular" because it's not as simple as that.

And for all the companies who are trying to beat WoW at their own game (no pun intended) by copying the game, they all fall short because you can't make a game that is more WoW than WoW.

Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't take any features from WoW. There are some features like instanced dungeons and the Dungeon Finder tool that are popular aspects of the game. There are features like mailboxes and an action house that are common components of many successful games, including FFXI.

You can't just summarily state that the presence or absence of soloing or grouping in FFXIV will make or break it, because whether you're alone or with friends, nothing to do is still nothing to do.

The "solo or group" question can be debated at length, but the decision made will not be the sole thing that makes or breaks FFXIV. No matter which direction they go, there are bound to be players who are unhappy with it, but the game needs to be a lot more than just "a solo game" or "a group game" before it can hope to appeal to people. Whether you're alone or with other people, if you aren't having fun and you don't see a point in what you're doing, it really won't matter who you're with.


If you where knocking on Rift! I agree, i been trying the beta for the past 2 day's, and for a company that claims their world is not Azeroth, it sure feels like Azeroth <.<


I haven't played Rift, so I don't know, but I do know that between quitting FFXI/WoW and starting FFXIV, I went through a lot of MMOGs like Allods, Shaiya, etc, and nearly every one makes it obvious that they're trying as hard as they can to look and feel EXACTLY like WoW.

Besides FFXI/FFXIV and games that were older than WoW like EQ and RO and EVE, it seems like the only MMORPG I could find that didn't look and feel like I was playing WoW all over again was DDO. (I logically assume LotRO is much the same but have not played it)

I'm not saying that people need to avoid trying to be anything like WoW, in fact, I'd say that that was the main reason that FFXIV flopped on release: They wasted so much time and effort trying to make FFXIV as "not FFXI" as they could that they overlooked the things that made FFXI popular. Rather than build on something that already worked, they tried to be different for the sake of being different.

There's nothing wrong with adopting features from other games in an effort to build a successful game of your own, but you cannot expect to beat your competition if all you're offering is a less polished version of what your competitor already offers.

At least to Rift's credit, they try to implement new ideas (e.g. Rifts) that WoW doesn't have. But again, I don't play the game so I don't know how "WoW-like" it is or isn't.

In the end, SE needs to take a good long look at what makes games like FFXI, WoW, SWG, EVE popular and also look at what aspects of them are unpopular and to be avoided. Out of that, they need to build FFXIV into a game that is not a clone of FFXI nor WoW nor any other game, but a game that adopts the successful aspects of other games, improves upon them, reduces or eliminates the negative aspects, and ultimately make the game into a product that people not only WANT to play, but most important of all a product that gives people a reason to pick it over something else.

FFXIV needs that "thing" that makes people say "_____ is a good game, but I like FFXIV better because _____".

It's not a success until it's players, be they 100k, 1 mil, or 100 mil, are saying that about it.
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#363 Jan 26 2011 at 3:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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146 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Making partying better doesn't take away options for soloers.


However, the grind will be designed with the fastest exp gain method in mind. Which in this case would be grouping. And if grouping for exp is "acceptable", then soloing is... not so much. In that way, it takes away enjoyment from soloers, who have to do more work than "acceptable" to get there.


I guess that's what fatigue, leves and behest were meant for at the beginning.
#364 Jan 26 2011 at 11:19 PM Rating: Default
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100 posts
8 pages of people agreeing with each other on the crux of the matter yet still arguing and insulting...this thread is funny.

If there is one valid difference of opinion it's what the disparity between solo and group rewards should be.

Everyone agrees the difference should not be large. Groups should not be vastly more rewarding than solo, nor should the opposite be true.

So that brings the difference down to slim or none. Who gives a ****? Even if SE attempts to balance the game so that there is absolutely no difference between the rate at which you accrue rewards from soloing and grouping, it will be IMPOSSIBLE to tell. There is such a large number of variables at play, it won't be immediately obvious which is better. That's just the way SE likes it too, covert and nebulous.

If there is some opportunity cost associated with lost time waiting for a group, that is something you just have to eat, or offset by soloing during the wait, because it's going to be different for everyone and every group. If SE makes SP or $$ gains more lucrative per hour for a group to offset the cost, once you surpass that cost, the longer you are with that group the larger the disparity becomes between a solo player and a team player. We already agreed we don't want a large disparity so that can not happen.

When it comes to end game content, it's reasonable to expect group content will reward better stuff. That's the way it's been since the dawn of time with multi-player games.
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#365 Jan 26 2011 at 11:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ahem...

CatPredator wrote:
8 pages of people agreeing with each other on the crux of the matter yet still arguing and insulting...this thread is funny.


*clears throat*


NO, U!
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#366 Jan 27 2011 at 2:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,146 posts
Ostia wrote:
RidingBean wrote:
zanfire wrote:
and again WoW is the only solo quest grind game to keep over a mil at a time, the tons of others out there that thought the same thing (and there is a lot of them, with plenty more coming) have not even scratched those #s. Why take the risk of being yet another of many when you have a pretty much garunteed auidence sitting there...which are obviously a solid amount.


I second that. WoW came out with the right setup at the right time. And many publishers still think they can roll in the big money if they make something similar. And we get loads of clones that bring nothing new or innovative to attract players.

That's why I want FFXIV to be successful, no WoW killer or 10 million subscribers MMO, just successful enough to have a healthy playerbase. Because it's something different and innovative, even if it's in kinda bad shape at the moment.

But what FFXIV needs is a good party system and something to do for groups. You can solo pretty well already which is a good thing for players with limited time like myself. But if I have more time on my hands I'd like to gather some friends or join a group to get that feeling of fellowship I had in XI...and get good SP of course ^^
This doesn't mean people who did like the leveling style of FFXI want this game to turn into a grindfest! But we should be able to if we want.


Is there a feature in place stopping you from grinding mobs to level cap ? serious question......

Oh wait there is not, you guys are just complaining that "Omg solo is easier and gives rewards, nobody wants to party with me :( " Well if they dont wanna party and grind like you do, maybe they have different priorities ? Aren't people that like grinding and party, gonna grind and party anyways ? or do you need to take something from somebody else in order to make party and grind enjoyable ?

Um...no there is nothing stopping anyone from grinding mobs. But, yes, I am complaining. Not about solo play but about party play not being attractive enough to encourage people to party.
And forgive me if I'm wrong but I think a MMO (Massively Multiplayer Online) is for people to play together and therefore should focus on that aspect.
If people don't want to party in a MMO because it's not viable/fun or for any other reason besides personal preference, something is wrong.
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#367 Jan 27 2011 at 3:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Everyone agrees the difference should not be large. Groups should not be vastly more rewarding than solo

Huh? I never agreed on that. Speak for yourself.
Grouping should be way more rewarding to make it viable.
Read my previous post about human nature.

Edited, Jan 27th 2011 4:44am by Rinsui
#368 Jan 27 2011 at 4:01 AM Rating: Excellent
Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
Everyone agrees the difference should not be large. Groups should not be vastly more rewarding than solo

Huh? I never agreed on that. Speak for yourself.
Grouping should be way more rewarding to make it viable.
Read my previous post about human nature.

Edited, Jan 27th 2011 4:44am by Rinsui


Exactly, I never agreed the difference should not be large....
I think MMORPG should always encourage people to gather up rather than solo!
Solo content is vital and should not be removed but it's a MMORPG for gods sake... I want to interact with other people and only solo on some occasions!!!
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