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FFXIV not design for a Quest leveling system (content)Follow

#1 Jan 23 2011 at 5:39 PM Rating: Default
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I like to point out few thing why this system doesn't work.

1. FFXIV have multiply classes on 1 character. In a general, Quests are level Based, quests open up by either a line form or by level. FFXIV can't do it because there is 19 classes and 8 of those classes are combat related. Why? For example, those who leveled a WoW character or warhammer or whatever should count the amount of quests you took to become a level 60 or even a 85. I am pretty sure you did over 100-500+.

Now that mean you have 1 character reach level 60 or level 85. However, FFXIV let you level up to 19 jobs/classes to 50. Meaning you need to either repeat them all or there are 19 times 100-500 quests.

Think of the burden for the developer.

2. Quest system doesn't work because of LEVEL specific quest. Now imagine this, you are 32 conj. You just complete the Kill XXX dodo quests. you go back to the NPC. You change to your lancer level 31. Does it mean the NPC now reset their quest so you can take it @ 31 lancer? The world is not BIG enough to have 19 NPC giving you a quest every level.

consider 1 NPC per quest for 1 whole level, FFXIV will need 19 x 50 NPC. Meaning 950 NPC! Which is not likely to happen especially the guy who type and think all those scenarios up for a quest or several quests that last 1 level long. (they can do it if it took 5 years in development like WOW!)

3. GEARS. One major problem is rewards. Considering the fact gears in this game isn't randomly general like WoW because gears are crafted (don't get me wrong here wow have craft gear but most gear are random generated with different stats_. There is a limit amount of rewards to go around, therefore quest is reward won't have enough to go around beside money.

That's all i can think of so far, feel free to discuss.
#2 Jan 23 2011 at 5:59 PM Rating: Excellent
Don't give SP/EXP rewards for quests. Problem solved.
#3 Jan 23 2011 at 6:06 PM Rating: Good
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You're right, single completion quests for SP would not work with this system. I would prefer something like fields of valor, or other repeatable quests or events. things like

randomly assigning players bounties, so that player gets double EXP/SP for killing puks today, someone may have dodos, someone may have marmots.

more and different behest type events.

You could do supply gathering missions, where you can go gather various mob drops, gathering items etc and turn them in for EXP/SP, as a "go kill X guys for Drop Y" or just a reward for each you do collect.

there are tons of ways they can implement objective based leveling schemes.
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#4 Jan 23 2011 at 6:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Quests should give exp for completion, just a controlled amount.

In WoW quests give 5-10x the exp mobs give. So when mobs give 5000 exp the quests gave 25,000 to 50,000.

So in FFXIV a quest giving 1k exp for completion would be in line with that. (Although maybe only give 1k+ after rank 31, because before that it doesn't take long to level, and it should definitely take more than 10 quests to gain a level).

I mean if quests gave 1000 SP that's 1% of your level at rank 49 so thats 100 quests or 1000 kills. Or combined, 50 quests and their kills should level you up. It would beat grinding Doblyns at 10k/hr for 10 hours wouldn't it?
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#5 Jan 23 2011 at 6:24 PM Rating: Decent
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The OP raises a valid point in that you can't have static quests that you use to level because once you've done it on one class, any other class you opt to rank up is screwed.

And I'll just throw this out there: that doesn't mean the only other viable option is grinding.

Having said that, what this means is that objective-based content for ranking up combat classes would probably have to be event based and not quest based. Which is fine...as long as they do a better job of it than they did with Behest, because Behest is altogether too limited for people to see it as a viable means of progression. You shouldn't have to wait around for an event to start, and you shouldn't be excluded from that event because the ridiculously low player limit for that event has already been reached. I wasn't around in XI for campaign but I was there for Besieged and something like that might be a good start but they'd have to do a better job of it. There's no excuse for mainstay event content to be a choppy lagfest.

If they're going to go for event-based progression, they need to fully follow through with Yoshida's notion of a "theme park" where there is always something going on somewhere that doesn't require a half hour of travel to get to. It needs to be set up so that you can log in and pick and choose what you want to do and be able to do it. And when they've got enough core events to keep people happily occupied all the time, then they can start adding in the selective things that only happen once in a while or only allow a certain number of players to partake.

Whatever they do, they can't cop out and favor generic grinding over anything else, because that's pretty much what they did already outside of leves and it's not working for them.
#6 Jan 23 2011 at 9:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Don't give SP/EXP rewards for quests. Problem solved.


Better solution: give the inactive jobs a percentage of the quest sp, while the active job gets the full amount. Kinda like how inactive party members in some FF games would get a percentage of the active party's exp to keep them from falling too far behind. Obviously, you'd segregate combat, crafting, and gathering jobs so that you can't level all of your crafts by doing combat quests, or level your combat jobs by gathering.
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#7 Jan 23 2011 at 9:21 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
The OP raises a valid point in that you can't have static quests that you use to level because once you've done it on one class, any other class you opt to rank up is screwed.



Have quests you can only accomplish as a certain class, maybe ones that add lore to the job.
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#8 Jan 23 2011 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Quanta wrote:
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Don't give SP/EXP rewards for quests. Problem solved.


Better solution: give the inactive jobs a percentage of the quest sp, while the active job gets the full amount. Kinda like how inactive party members in some FF games would get a percentage of the active party's exp to keep them from falling too far behind. Obviously, you'd segregate combat, crafting, and gathering jobs so that you can't level all of your crafts by doing combat quests, or level your combat jobs by gathering.


This probably wouldnt work because they will most likely add jobs later on that you will have to unlock. So lets say you completed all quests in the game and you have 2-3 classes currently at max level. Those unlocked jobs will be all grind then due to not having any quests to provide that extra sp.

I think AnnabelleCloud has it right on. Its similar to how it is now except we'd actually get sp and there would be more job specific quests. Maybe Job specific leves other than for Guild marks.
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#9 Jan 23 2011 at 9:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Or since this game is similar to ffxi the quests could work the same how many people here used to do avatar run weekly for gil?Every week those quests reset I don't see why this game could do the same thing jeez the one npc in sandy needed unlimiteed supply of bat wings why does it have to be once and done?
#10 Jan 23 2011 at 9:54 PM Rating: Default
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Have repeatable quests that you can do for SP (Something like tiered NPC escort).

Have non-repeatable quests for gear. (With story and battles).
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#11 Jan 23 2011 at 9:56 PM Rating: Good
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RadishSpirit wrote:
Or since this game is similar to ffxi the quests could work the same how many people here used to do avatar run weekly for gil?Every week those quests reset I don't see why this game could do the same thing jeez the one npc in sandy needed unlimiteed supply of bat wings why does it have to be once and done?


The weekly ENM type quest or the ones that gave exp scrolls (Cookbook in Sacrarium for example). There were a lot of repeatable quests in XI that not too many NA knew about or if they did, just didn't do them. JP sure did though.
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#12 Jan 23 2011 at 10:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I figured they would just do quest the same way they are implemented in XI. You did not level off quests, they were their for story, unlock content, maybe some gil and cool items. If you wanted to level that is what partying or going out and soloing was for. XI has multiple jobs on one character but you did not to go back and redo all the normal quest because you changed jobs. Once you did the quests they are gone (unless its some repeatable type thing). That is how I think it will work but wont know till they add them.
#13 Jan 23 2011 at 10:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Yea did enm weekly also but choose avatars due to the fact you could choose your reward weapon item or gill
#14 Jan 23 2011 at 10:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's not that much of a problem.. Just look at the leve system... How many battle leves are there total? More than just a few, and they are all issued by 3 npc's. They could easily do something similar with the generic go kill xxxx mobs or fetch quest npcs, rather than having 1 npc whose sole purpose is that quest, and making hundreds of them, just make a few npc's who offer loads of quests and objectives.

On the other hand, I thought the leveling by quest system WoW had was terrible. I'd much rather the quests be fewer, but more unique and engaging like they were in FFXI. No, you didn't do 100 quests per level, but when you did do a quest, it was a significant experience, and you often got something like your teleport spell or sleepga II.

And to be completely honest, I don't care one bit what direction they go with all that, because I don't solo grind for sp. Only pre level 20 at the very highest, but preferably never after R10. My conjurer is 50 and I never once solo'd past level 5. Since they changed the sp system, I haven't gotten a single battle class rank, and I won't until they give more incentive for group leveling.

I much prefer the ffxi party grind style, but something else like leve parties could be tolerable if they cut out 80% of the running around. I can understand not having a tele straight to the objective, but instead of giving you like 3 mobs to kill in a large party, on an 8 min defense level, give us a defense level that lasts the full 30 minutes+, and sends like up to 50 tough mobs at you.

That's just me though... I understand how some people want solo content, but personally I don't want any solo content at all, because when I'm in the mood to play alone, I play an offline game and get a far more fun and exciting solo experience. I play online for the superior multiplayer experience that you can't get with most console games.
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#15 Jan 23 2011 at 10:15 PM Rating: Good
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Quests shouldn't award experience, yes. Leves, Behest, and other non-quest, goal-oriented tasks will be fine to use for leveling lower level classes. The only thing is that they have to give us more Leves, Behests, and whatever else. Once there's enough of those, a lot of leveling problems will go away.
#16 Jan 24 2011 at 2:03 AM Rating: Good
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Let's not overthink this. Allow a player to do each quest one time on each class. Incredibly simple fix.
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#17 Jan 24 2011 at 2:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
1. FFXIV have multiply classes on 1 character. In a general, Quests are level Based, quests open up by either a line form or by level. FFXIV can't do it because there is 19 classes and 8 of those classes are combat related. Why? For example, those who leveled a WoW character or warhammer or whatever should count the amount of quests you took to become a level 60 or even a 85. I am pretty sure you did over 100-500+.

Now that mean you have 1 character reach level 60 or level 85. However, FFXIV let you level up to 19 jobs/classes to 50. Meaning you need to either repeat them all or there are 19 times 100-500 quests.


isnt this moot since the average wow player has several characters each in a different class spec who also redo the same the quests when they level that new character?
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#18 Jan 24 2011 at 3:06 AM Rating: Decent
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AnnabelleCloud wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
The OP raises a valid point in that you can't have static quests that you use to level because once you've done it on one class, any other class you opt to rank up is screwed.



Have quests you can only accomplish as a certain class, maybe ones that add lore to the job.


That's too many quests to have a quest-centric leveling system. As part of the process, absolutely and it would fall in line with all the other things they could add after they have addressed the core issue of inadequate objective-based content. Leves are overly restricted and overly restrictive. I don't like questing on a timer, but they need that timer there to control server resources. I think that if the devs had had time to work mainly on new content instead of trying to fix things we might have a much wider variety of leves, but they're still leves. They're still fundamentally flawed. They're the kind of thing you should be able to do if you want to do them and if you don't want to do them there should be plenty of other things with which to occupy your time.
#19 Jan 24 2011 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Or just make the quests come from the Guilds of your class, therefore specific to that class?
Maybe you can't start quests until your rank 20 and join the guild? I mean it only takes you a couple hours to hit r20 and thats when quest EXP would start being useful anyways.
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#20 Jan 25 2011 at 1:28 AM Rating: Good
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What if they just added a crap ton of new leves and removed the leve cap per 32 hours?
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#21 Jan 25 2011 at 5:05 AM Rating: Good
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Maybe it's just me but why would we want quests with SP/EXP as reward?

We have Guildleves for that.

What we need is quests that give you an insight to the lore and world of FFXIV.

And from reading the OP I got the clear idea that he never played FFXI, if you have then I would like to remind you that in quests like the one given by Brigitte in Bastok related to fashion you could indeed have the same NPC give you 2 or more of the same quest, all you had to do was change your job/class. As sich I dont see why the same wouldn't work on FFXIV.

Give us quests that will give us membership to the 3 fashions (mentioned on leves) and present us with lore, just like the "Tanshodo" quest line in Jeuno.

Give us quests for special/ubber abilities for each job and let us know more about what goes on in the class guilds.

Give us quests to access advanced classes and explain how they came about.

Quests do not need to give SP or EXP, thats what leves are there for along with grinding.
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#22 Jan 25 2011 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
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We've got class quests at 20+ that give gil/marks and leves that give SP. Leves are by no means quests, but they get you sp. Oddly, I haven't done my class quests and I've got 8 jobs above 20..
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#23 Jan 25 2011 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
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Quests like those that the OP is referring to are by no means the only type that can be added, and in my opinion, are the worst kinda of content to add. Almost any content is a plus, but something plot advancing like FFXI missions are much more enjoyable forms of "quest" content in my opinion. Use a few repeatable quests (like FFXI rep quests), specific item quests (like FFXI spell and AF quests), behest, garrison, maybe some eco quest stuff, something like BCNMs, possibly they can throw in the aspect of nation quests with the next city...

It would be simple enough to place quest givers and have wow style quests, whether you want to do each quest line over as different jobs, each quest line only once, or have totally unrelated job specific quest lines it wouldn't encounter the problems listed above, it would just drive me nuts if SE took the route of saying content = killing x mobs or get x number of items and returning to the quest giver, repeat 300 times per job with slight difference. The have a lot to live up to as far as plot goes with the precedent they set in FFXI missions, while I'm not looking for them to clone FFXI's take on quest-like content, the one thing that will make me quit cold turkey is getting a clone of WoW's.
#24 Jan 25 2011 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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Or you could just add SP bonuses onto levequests and bypass all of the issues you mentioned entirely. True they're not proper 'quests' but right now the entirety of SP is earned through combat only. However you look at it, its effectively still grinding mobs until rank 50. I'm not vehemently opposed to that, but considering that right now combat is pretty uninteresting, I'd prefer SP rewards on leves.

Personally, I disliked the fact that in FFXI I had to kill monsters for even the tiniest amount of XP to level up. Sure there were XP scroll quests and BCNM XP rewards, but at best you'd only get 2k experience or so (3k on high level BCNMs) which doesn't even put a dent in the majority of level ups. Worse, XP scrolls gave random XP and it was entirely possible to get less than 100 XP for one.

At some point I think it's safe to assume that the rank cap will increase. Perhaps to 75 perhaps all the way to 100 or so. They need groundwork now in this early stage of the game for people to actually attain those ranks on multiple classes so they can make use of the cross classing which is key to gameplay. Enemies are currently pretty scarce, leves are rationed and combat boils down to spamming your default attack. That's not how I'd like to reach rank 50 personally.

Leves are already limited to 8 in any 36 hour period. Why not go the whole way and just add SP rewards for completing them? It does little harm considering some leves, despite their rewards, give very few enemies and thus little SP or XP, and gives players more incentive to pick leves less popular because of their low reward or monster count.
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#25 Jan 25 2011 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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wrongfeifong wrote:
I like to point out few thing why this system doesn't work.

1. FFXIV have multiply classes on 1 character. In a general, Quests are level Based, quests open up by either a line form or by level. FFXIV can't do it because there is 19 classes and 8 of those classes are combat related. Why? For example, those who leveled a WoW character or warhammer or whatever should count the amount of quests you took to become a level 60 or even a 85. I am pretty sure you did over 100-500+.

Now that mean you have 1 character reach level 60 or level 85. However, FFXIV let you level up to 19 jobs/classes to 50. Meaning you need to either repeat them all or there are 19 times 100-500 quests.

Think of the burden for the developer.

2. Quest system doesn't work because of LEVEL specific quest. Now imagine this, you are 32 conj. You just complete the Kill XXX dodo quests. you go back to the NPC. You change to your lancer level 31. Does it mean the NPC now reset their quest so you can take it @ 31 lancer? The world is not BIG enough to have 19 NPC giving you a quest every level.

consider 1 NPC per quest for 1 whole level, FFXIV will need 19 x 50 NPC. Meaning 950 NPC! Which is not likely to happen especially the guy who type and think all those scenarios up for a quest or several quests that last 1 level long. (they can do it if it took 5 years in development like WOW!)

3. GEARS. One major problem is rewards. Considering the fact gears in this game isn't randomly general like WoW because gears are crafted (don't get me wrong here wow have craft gear but most gear are random generated with different stats_. There is a limit amount of rewards to go around, therefore quest is reward won't have enough to go around beside money.

That's all i can think of so far, feel free to discuss.

Really?

Even if they do not use what FFXI already does that addresses everything that is stated, there are a million and 1 ways to accomplish anything that can be thought of on principal alone. The question is not if it can be done but how it should be done.

And thank you for confirming why I will never touch WOW.
#26 Jan 25 2011 at 10:56 PM Rating: Good
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JFisher24 wrote:
I figured they would just do quest the same way they are implemented in XI. You did not level off quests, they were their for story, unlock content, maybe some gil and cool items. If you wanted to level that is what partying or going out and soloing was for. XI has multiple jobs on one character but you did not to go back and redo all the normal quest because you changed jobs. Once you did the quests they are gone (unless its some repeatable type thing). That is how I think it will work but wont know till they add them.


That right there is what makes the OP's points irrelevant. Let us hope that the new production team doesn't try to reinvent the wheel here like they have done for so much else in this game. I loved XI's quest system because it made me feel more connected to the story. You didn't undertake "An Explorer's Footsteps" for exp progression, but for a little bit of gil and the map of the Crawlers' Nest. I was an avid map collector in XI and feel a little bit cheated they just gave us all the maps in XIV.
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