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The party problemFollow

#1 Jan 24 2011 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry if this has been brought up before but I haven't seen any threads on it. I was thinking about this for a bit and it seems a lot of people agree with me on the game so I'd like the opinions of people here.

One of the major factors of what is holding this game back from being as fun as possible is the party size. A 15 man party is ridiculous and a total mess. In past FF games your parties were in teams of 3-6. In FFXI the party size was 6. In said parties each member felt special in the sense that if they didn't play their role 100% the party was doomed. In these giant clusters of 15 people, you have some people going afk or people not paying attention and there's multiples of each class. Animations are out of control. It doesn't seem fun and a baby could probably sit there bashing the keyboard and they'd beat a behest/leve/NM.

I feel after they restructure classes to make them feel more unique they should restrict party size to 6. 15 should be reserved for more large-scale fights.

Please share your opinion.
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#2 Jan 24 2011 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
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You've been partying w/ the wrong people then. My LS holds regular events with parties of 15, we keep it pretty organized.
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#3 Jan 24 2011 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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That has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about. We're organized and we tackle things like cake, which is my point. It's far too easy and nobody feels like they're doing anything particularly useful because before you know it it's dead. Although when you have random behests with strangers and stuff, half of them don't pay attention. You can't see what's going on either due to the insane amount of animations. Simian Thrash is enough to blind you on Great Buffalo.
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#4 Jan 24 2011 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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You CAN have parties of 6 - no one is stopping you. I think that if SE tunes mobs/SP correctly then different mobs will be better with different party sizes. Allowing a party of up to 15 is important for things like behest. I don't think that hard-capping the number of party members is necessary - nor is it a good move.

We just need more partied monsters in the open world for 15 member parties to take on.
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#5 Jan 24 2011 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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You said parties of 15 are ridiculous and a total mess. I'm saying they don't have to be; mine aren't. Where is the misunderstanding?

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 1:29pm by Jefro420
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#6 Jan 24 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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So you're saying you have parties of 15 where 8 of them do nothing? By mess I mean the amount of people doing the exact same things to such a degree that you can't even tell what's going on. You have three people doing the exact same cure spells, and a bunch of other people doing the same attacks. Basically you're taking a 6 person fight, multiplying it by 2.5, and drawing it out even longer so it's the same thing over and over.

Otherwise, make the battles less drawn out. Perhaps you will see what I mean when you fight an NM. The NM fights like Haughtpox and Elder Mosshorn are fun because there's a lot more strategy involved and they're good for 15 man parties. But when you have a fight like Great Buffalo which takes up your entire screen and all everyone does is stand in front of him for 20-30 mins attacking senselessly doing the same things over and over it seems pointless, it doesn't matter what one single person does it doesn't feel they're adding to anything.

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 1:36pm by Rjain
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#7 Jan 24 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rjain wrote:
Sorry if this has been brought up before but I haven't seen any threads on it. I was thinking about this for a bit and it seems a lot of people agree with me on the game so I'd like the opinions of people here.

One of the major factors of what is holding this game back from being as fun as possible is the party size. A 15 man party is ridiculous and a total mess. In past FF games your parties were in teams of 3-6. In FFXI the party size was 6. In said parties each member felt special in the sense that if they didn't play their role 100% the party was doomed. In these giant clusters of 15 people, you have some people going afk or people not paying attention and there's multiples of each class. Animations are out of control. It doesn't seem fun and a baby could probably sit there bashing the keyboard and they'd beat a behest/leve/NM.

I feel after they restructure classes to make them feel more unique they should restrict party size to 6. 15 should be reserved for more large-scale fights.

Please share your opinion.


I agree. I barely pay 20% the attention I used to pay on xi when playing xiv. Its like, yeah okay, if I don't do my job I'm just an extra DD in the grinder, or healer be it the case, and if someone dies there's no loss. Just a quick run. There's no real strategy either. Its just engage, spam, when HP gets low throw in an aoe heal.
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#8 Jan 24 2011 at 12:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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I agree to an extent. Although, I see nothing wrong with the group size for behest. I don't think it's supposed to be challenging, just something else to do to give a bit of SP and provide group content.

You're right about being totally expendable in a party though most often. With the crazy heals in the game the only way someone dies is if they're dumb enough (i fit this requirement at times) to run in and AoE 4 or 5 behest mobs without waiting for the tank. You don't stack up buffs and pull off a huge WS and get that "wow nice man" response that you got in small groups. Perhaps this leads to a lack of competition which in the end can make you hit the snooze button.
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#9 Jan 24 2011 at 4:08 PM Rating: Default
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i do not think limiting the party to 6 people will cause the type of gameplay you are looking for. It will be the same just slower to kill.

I for one like that you are not limited to 6 people and sp doesnt suffer because of it.

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 5:08pm by dnored
#10 Jan 24 2011 at 4:13 PM Rating: Default
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Rjain wrote:
So you're saying you have parties of 15 where 8 of them do nothing?

No, that's what I'm saying, you're partying with the wrong people. I regularly form groups of 15 to do leves, my groups have not been as chaotic as you describe. We generally set the difficulty on leves a bit higher so the mobs are harder and take longer for our group.


Edited, Jan 24th 2011 5:20pm by Jefro420
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#11 Jan 24 2011 at 4:39 PM Rating: Excellent
Rjain wrote:

One of the major factors of what is holding this game back from being as fun as possible is the party size. A 15 man party is ridiculous and a total mess. In past FF games your parties were in teams of 3-6. In FFXI the party size was 6. In said parties each member felt special in the sense that if they didn't play their role 100% the party was doomed. In these giant clusters of 15 people, you have some people going afk or people not paying attention and there's multiples of each class. Animations are out of control. It doesn't seem fun and a baby could probably sit there bashing the keyboard and they'd beat a behest/leve/NM.

I feel after they restructure classes to make them feel more unique they should restrict party size to 6. 15 should be reserved for more large-scale fights.


Your line on parties reminded me of something I bumped into the other day: Importance of Job Roles.

Anyway, in regards to party size, I've been in parties ranging from duos to full blown 15 mans. In particular, I remember being in a lot of 15 man grind parties pre November patch, and they were, despite being a major whack-away-for-500-SP grind, fun, as we all learnt a lot, and we had some funny moments as well.

Personally, I don't quite believe that larger party sizes should only be allowed for certain tasks, since that's the beauty of a dynamic party - you can still do the same things (for the time being) with a smaller party, but with more members, things should get easier, if a little more organisation is required. 15 man Behests are always a substantial source of SP, and I sometimes wonder why they can't actually either:

a) Fit more people for Behest situations (or Hamlet Defence, more likely)
b) Have two Behest Wardens if one is full.

I agree with Olor that the game would definitely be more entertaining should there be beneficial changes to the party SP system, as well as more mobs that would effectively require a large party to defeat, since right there you have two things which would encourage partying - in varied sizes.
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#12 Jan 24 2011 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
There isn't much incentive to do anything in a 15 person behest. I can join follow the group and do nothing the whole time, get all the sp, and leave. And I bet if you ask everyone what I was doing during the behest, no one would know. So much happens at once, it's impossible to make sence of your combat log without very heavy filtering. And the screen is just a blob of players, monsters and animations. (Nanawa Mines Behest is a good example.) Seriously...join a 15 person behest and see how long you can stand around doing nothing before someone notices. I'm betting no one will.
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#13 Jan 24 2011 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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As far as I can tell, this is basically to handle the alliance bit. Rather than banding parties together, you can have one big party. Thereby keeping things smaller. Different linkshells, or depending on how they implement companies will allow for more closed communication. I can not honestly believe the intent was for people to actually form 15 person parties for regular use in the game, but to have the high limit set from the start.
#14 Jan 24 2011 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
rfolkker wrote:
As far as I can tell, this is basically to handle the alliance bit. Rather than banding parties together, you can have one big party. Thereby keeping things smaller. Different linkshells, or depending on how they implement companies will allow for more closed communication. I can not honestly believe the intent was for people to actually form 15 person parties for regular use in the game, but to have the high limit set from the start.


The only problem I see with this is before you had three PT's with 3 seperate hate pools. Now you have one big PT with one big hate pool. How can you manage enmity in a situation where all monsters are super tough. Take Dynamis in FFXI for example. When 75 was still the cap you went in with 3 parties in an alliance, and each PT had a role. THey could conquer tasks seprately while workign towards a common objective.

In FFXIV if 15 people are all in one PT, you get one healer to AoE heal too much and pull hate while one person tries to tank a mob off to the side, and at the same time the main group is killing something else, all of a sudden every mob runs to the healer.

We need to break down the individual PT size to an "optimal" size for getting SP/XP, then allow an alliance to form to allow each PT group to manage enmity seperately (or in some endgame instances there may be shared alliance hate to make the fight harder).

EDIT: Just wanted to add that FFXIV significantly emphisizes multiple monster per fight instances... where as FFXI was almost entirely PT vs one monster (at least for leveling). So far the only 1 on 1 is soloing. LQs are mostly groups of 2+ monsters, behests are the same way, etc...

Edited, Jan 24th 2011 6:02pm by StateAlchemist2
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#15 Jan 24 2011 at 5:16 PM Rating: Good
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IMO this also hurts the communication/bonding with new people. When I'm in a 15 player party I set my chat to LS mode, when I'm in a 3 man party its party mode all the way.
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#16 Jan 24 2011 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
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Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
There isn't much incentive to do anything in a 15 person behest. I can join follow the group and do nothing the whole time, get all the sp, and leave. And I bet if you ask everyone what I was doing during the behest, no one would know. So much happens at once, it's impossible to make sence of your combat log without very heavy filtering. And the screen is just a blob of players, monsters and animations. (Nanawa Mines Behest is a good example.) Seriously...join a 15 person behest and see how long you can stand around doing nothing before someone notices. I'm betting no one will.


I liked your answer. For me in 15 man Behests I get excited when I even get to get a few hits in on a mob, let alone target them. lol. I mean there are targets everywhere in the case of Horizon in every direction. Chat log is running too fast and there is too much comotion to really organize stuff. Of course I'm just starting out in this game and probably don't know better, but you are right. I could just not engage anything the whole behest and no one would say anything. We're all there for one thing and that is to get in, get SP, and get out!
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#17 Jan 24 2011 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
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Exactly. I think things would work out for the best if enemies had certain "recommended" party amounts. 6 or so people for normal large/strong enemies/ bosses (Malboro,Efts,Raptors, Crabs, Drakes, Ahriman, Boar, etc.), 3-4 people for smaller enemies (dodos, rams, normal races, skeletons, etc.), and 10-15 for huge enemies ( Buffalo, Behemoth, Oliphants, etc.)
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#18 Jan 24 2011 at 5:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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To the OP

I agree with you at 100%. When i play with a 15 man party at times i cannot even target the mob before it dies. I think the mobs hit for to much. So far to me to kill something its kill them as fast as you can before the AOE att you and take half your hp. ok back on track/ I miss how important you felt in FFXI when you would party. Now in FFXIV i fell like everyone else, a button smasher with really no defined role. As pug i can tank and DD even throw out some buffs and heals.

On another note: I am very excited for some content and the changes to the game no matter how big or small.
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#19 Jan 24 2011 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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I am just gonna back up GuiltyBoomerang and also refer to her post about role-based party dynamics. I have said it myself in plenty of threads. Monsters might need some tweaking for party style play, but more than anything what is killing the game for me is the lack of defined roles. Everything just feels so ho-hum. Like what I do doesn't particularly matter..... just another cog in the machine. Not to mention what someone else touched on with everyone just sort of doing there own thing, BECAUSE THEY CAN!! Too much freedom, not enough definition, makes everyone to a greater or lesser degree tankDDsupportHEALnukers (i.e. all-in-one super class).


So the way this game functions makes me ask myself, why even have different classes.
And honestly if I just wanted to play an MMO with a classless system in place, I'd just re-activate my old Asheron's Call account.


Edited, Jan 24th 2011 6:59pm by AmsaimSutavarg
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#20 Jan 24 2011 at 8:10 PM Rating: Excellent
Buckeyespud wrote:
Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
There isn't much incentive to do anything in a 15 person behest. I can join follow the group and do nothing the whole time, get all the sp, and leave. And I bet if you ask everyone what I was doing during the behest, no one would know. So much happens at once, it's impossible to make sence of your combat log without very heavy filtering. And the screen is just a blob of players, monsters and animations. (Nanawa Mines Behest is a good example.) Seriously...join a 15 person behest and see how long you can stand around doing nothing before someone notices. I'm betting no one will.


I liked your answer. For me in 15 man Behests I get excited when I even get to get a few hits in on a mob, let alone target them. lol. I mean there are targets everywhere in the case of Horizon in every direction. Chat log is running too fast and there is too much comotion to really organize stuff. Of course I'm just starting out in this game and probably don't know better, but you are right. I could just not engage anything the whole behest and no one would say anything. We're all there for one thing and that is to get in, get SP, and get out!


One other thing I forgot to mention... another thing that currently 'breaks' parting is the inability to 'claim' a mob group outside the one your PT is currently engaging. When you go to behest you might have 6 monsters attacking your 15 person PT but you cant kill anything but the two mobs in red because then you wont get SP or drops. THis kind of defeats the purpose of the battle in the first place.

Meanwhile people attack the yellow mobs anyway because they dont wanna sit there and die because the healers is concentrating on the people fighting the red mobs. It's chaos.
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#21 Jan 25 2011 at 12:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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I couldn't agree more with OP for the most part. And I'm sure we will be seeing some kind of change in this direction. I was thinking they could just make the system a little more simple like 11. If they want to keep 15 the max number of a partied group, they should just make 1 party equal 5 people and have 3 parties join up to form the 15 man alliances when needed. I've been waiting since day 1 to see this something great like this happen!! It will happen.
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#22 Jan 25 2011 at 2:05 AM Rating: Decent
You are right in the fact that there it feels like you dont have a specific role other than spammer or healer. I also think that emnity is a bit off in behests, I as primarally a Marauder have to be very close to the mob to do dmg. What I dont like is some archer half a mile away shoots the mob once and generates more emnity than I do so that mob then goes running off to attack the archer and its a giant game of ping pong between the archers and the close range fighters.
#23 Jan 25 2011 at 2:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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I agree 100%. My LS runs "organized" leve runs and behest all the time. It's meaningless in the context of which the OP is speaking. Even if you mark a mob for attacking and set the order of things its still ultimately a mash fest against too weak mobs that don't have a chance even if you could set it on 9 stars.

No, I miss having a role in a part and truly unique abilities to bring to the table.
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#24 Jan 25 2011 at 4:53 AM Rating: Good
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No, they should not reduce the max party size. The reason is because it has a place... It might not always be the way to go, at which point you should recruit less people, but it does certainly have it's place. So it falls to the players to group into parties that are of the right size.

I also disagree that it's not fun. Back on the old SP system, a lot of people from my linkshell got to 50 in parties of 12-15 people. We killed raptors, efts, and crabs that were well above our level, and they gave great SP for just about everyone usually, while still dying pretty quick. At 40+ we started taking on drakes, and they were pretty fun. People still had to pay attention though, otherwise you'd get spike flailed, but yes you could have a couple DD's go afk and still keep going. I don't think it was that big a deal.

And you might think it's too many people to keep track of, or too chaotic, but when you group with the same people, you do still get to know all of them pretty well. We don't usually do leves as a party that big, but we do NM's as a full group, and it's a lot of fun. Again, you just have to use the party size that fits what you're trying to do.

heh, and lastly, I noticed your on besaid, and you mentioned you fought nm's... Are you in that WF linkshell by chance? We saw those guys take on dodore a bit ago, and they definitely need to work on their teamwork and strategy. The easier fights are a good opportunity to get into a good rhythm. But one or two people messing up on that fight can wipe the whole group, so that NM alone gives the 15 man party size a reason for existing. Not to mention any future content that would be good for 15 players, or even more.

It's a balance, sure, but there's a time and place for it, and just because you have a lot of people doesn't mean things have to be chaotic or strategy has to be thrown to the wind. We wipe the floor with Dodore half the time we fight him, but it took practice as a group to get there. It's definitely a lot of fun though.. Probably the most fun NM fight by far, and I'd love to see more stuff like that, not less.

I won't lie though, I did love the feel of the old 6 man parties in ffxi... It was infinitely better than solo sp'ing, and usually more fun than 15 player sp parties, though they did have their moments... If they brought back the old 6 person party / 3 party alliance system, I wouldn't complain a bit.
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#25 Jan 25 2011 at 5:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Surely - people stood around doing "nothing" in a behest party is ideal - if over half of the people in one of my behest parties did nothing - trust me I would have been extactic.

Instead - half of the numpties decided to attack mobs that were not red - wasting SP.

This is unreal - people moan that behest is rubbish as people attack wrong mobs - then moan at people stood doing nothing in a behest party.

Other than behest / NM and leve linking / sharing - there is no reason to be in a party of 15 man there is nothing that challanging currently in game.

And if people do nothing in a 15 man behest - well at least they aint wasting sp!!!

Also, at least going AFK under the old system only hurt your SP - under new system people cry - OMG leech

Really is no pleasing this crowd - rofl





Edited, Jan 25th 2011 6:36am by MisterGaribaldi

Edited, Jan 25th 2011 6:37am by MisterGaribaldi
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#26 Jan 25 2011 at 6:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Although I did love the 6-man parties in XI, I find having the freedom to roam about just as fulfilling. I do miss the particular structuring that was required for the most efficient EXP, (Healer, Tank, Support, DDx3), stationary camps with pullers dodging aggro to and from camp. That was then, and this is now.

I think current server populations and active players prevent most from discovering the best setups. Has anyone had the opportunity to kill Raptors in a 6-man group @Boulder Downs yet with the aforementioned setup R40-45 only? I have, once. As opposed to the typical ~130SP/kill at Boulder Downs, we were getting ~160/kill. Unfortunately, people have used this same camp to grind all the way to 50, when there is another camp south of Camp Ever Lakes chock full of higher-rank Raptors that would probably be best suited for 45-50. I feel at the moment many are just settling for what is available. I think it is far too early in the game to decide that something really needs fixing when the majority haven't really had the opportunity to experience maximum efficiency.


#27 Jan 25 2011 at 12:28 PM Rating: Decent
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This party system just makes it were you need almost no skill to play. You could play this game on a old NES controller, A button for attack 1, and B button for TP attack and its going to breed playing with no skills, other then zerging skills.
#28 Jan 25 2011 at 2:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Discussing the inherent problem of partying and large group content not being worthwhile look at what SE tried to do. By eliminating the overall job roles and allowing everyone to do a bit in regards to tanking, DD, heal, nuke, debuff its created party flexibility how ever hindered group play and the skill that we saw in XI.

Xi has also in some ways fallen to this trend as well. We look at most MMO's these days we see combat as being evolved and quick with everyone using their attacks and skills as soon as timers are ready and their in game tool says they are below the hate line enough. What made XI so appealing to its niche player base was that many a time each job had and parties in situations had to exercise a level of patience, thus calling Xi's combat to slow. It may have been or felt slow but it had a rythem to it that made job roles possible. Jobs had abilities and skills that could build off of each other to allow the group to be effective and reach its goal in this game that is far different.

XIV IMO should have kept that ideal from XI in regards to the function and combat style because that is what the core player base knows and is familiar with. I have played many of the current MMO's out and that is my biggest gripe with them many fights is just zerg and mash ability keys and boom monster dead. Everyone wants to do damage but no one wants to heal, or debuff, or let go of their numbers Epeen. I am sorry but MMO culture has moved from being proud of the wins and how they are attained to how fast, biggest numbers in terms of dps, most leet gear I have.

If XIV continues down that road of button mashing with no real reason aside from that is the only timer that is ready than we the playerbase will see this game as other MMO's just fade into obscurity. I like my leve's I do with 3-4 players we have 2 mages one tank and one DD and we do really well one mage is heal and buff the other always focuses on nuke and debuff and we switch the roles around. Our tank at r30 is a mrd and they use skills that give up DD potential and increase their defense to make healing easier.

As long as the battle and party system stays this way and SE doesn't make each class have a specific role within a party than nothing will change and everything will remain a zerg fight. face it everyone this is what MMO culture has come to in terms of combat.

You guys can discuss back and forth all you want but unless there is a drastic change to something based off of XI's mechanics it will stay very much like it is.

#29 Jan 25 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Decent
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You guys can discuss back and forth all you want but unless there is a drastic change to something based off of XI's mechanics it will stay very much like it is.


What they can do is make the classes be able to perform in similar roles differently. A DRK does damage, a SAM does damage, but slightly differently, and each job had a theme. XIV classes kind of lack that theme right now.
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#30 Jan 25 2011 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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You guys can discuss back and forth all you want but unless there is a drastic change to something based off of XI's mechanics it will stay very much like it is.


What they can do is make the classes be able to perform in similar roles differently. A DRK does damage, a SAM does damage, but slightly differently, and each job had a theme. XIV classes kind of lack that theme right now.



I totally agree with you. Everyjob had its niche qualities . .


SAM TP master for skillchain
DRK best spike damage using magic and blood to do huge weaponskills
THF hate control and spike damage and TH
NIN back up tank and DD and enfeeble
WAR Spike DMG and great DOT melee with gaxe
RNG best spike weaponskill dmg and ranged attacks for aoe heavy fights
DRG steady DD used jumps for spike dmg and assisting with enmity

Every job had its role in the party and various niche qualities, that is what is lacking here. Either way people argue there is one constant no one will be happy. I would prefer a battle system based on what was before but taken to a different level. how? I do not know and that is up to SE
#31 Jan 25 2011 at 11:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
heh, and lastly, I noticed your on besaid, and you mentioned you fought nm's... Are you in that WF linkshell by chance? We saw those guys take on dodore a bit ago, and they definitely need to work on their teamwork and strategy. The easier fights are a good opportunity to get into a good rhythm. But one or two people messing up on that fight can wipe the whole group, so that NM alone gives the 15 man party size a reason for existing. Not to mention any future content that would be good for 15 players, or even more.

It's a balance, sure, but there's a time and place for it, and just because you have a lot of people doesn't mean things have to be chaotic or strategy has to be thrown to the wind. We wipe the floor with Dodore half the time we fight him, but it took practice as a group to get there. It's definitely a lot of fun though.. Probably the most fun NM fight by far, and I'd love to see more stuff like that, not less.


Yes I'm in WF. I was in PvR too and I left it.

I didn't fight Dodore because people had to go to bed, but we burned through the rest of the NMs within a couple of hours in one sitting. We even got the aeolian scimitar. It wasn't very difficult and that's not the point I'm bringing up here, the point is that it's chaotic, ugly, and just not as specialized and... well, challenging as in FFXI. This game and the NMs in general seems to be diet FFXI, instead of holding calories though it's holding back the challenge.

I'm not complaining about organization (except for stuff like behest when you're playing with strangers). All organized parties I've been in have been second to none. We perform quite well. It's just not very fun, the animations are out of control, there's too many people doing the same thing, and I could sit there pressing the same single button for 10 mins to kill an NM without having to worry about anything.
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#32 Jan 25 2011 at 11:51 PM Rating: Good
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
I agree. I barely pay 20% the attention I used to pay on xi when playing xiv. Its like, yeah okay, if I don't do my job I'm just an extra DD in the grinder, or healer be it the case, and if someone dies there's no loss. Just a quick run. There's no real strategy either. Its just engage, spam, when HP gets low throw in an aoe heal.


Yeah, sometimes I feel like I can just hit things randomly and the monster will be dead in about eleven seconds regardless; other times I can't even manage to engage a monster before it's been killed. It's not that I'm lazy or overly sluggish, it's just that every monster is made of ancient clay pottery and adventurers have sledgehammers for hands. X_x
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#33 Jan 26 2011 at 12:55 AM Rating: Decent
12 posts
Tiger228 wrote:


I also disagree that it's not fun. Back on the old SP system, a lot of people from my linkshell got to 50 in parties of 12-15 people. We killed raptors, efts, and crabs that were well above our level, and they gave great SP for just about everyone usually, while still dying pretty quick. At 40+ we started taking on drakes, and they were pretty fun. People still had to pay attention though, otherwise you'd get spike flailed, but yes you could have a couple DD's go afk and still keep going. I don't think it was that big a deal.

And you might think it's too many people to keep track of, or too chaotic, but when you group with the same people, you do still get to know all of them pretty well. We don't usually do leves as a party that big, but we do NM's as a full group, and it's a lot of fun. Again, you just have to use the party size that fits what you're trying to do.


Yes, those 10-15 man party prior to Nov patch were a lot of fun. Grinding is fun when it's challenging. Eft parties were ok unless 2 or 3 aggroed at the same time. Raptors and drakes were much more exciting. In these fights, your party will become organized, cuz you have to watch carefully where you stand or you get one-shotted. In my LS party, when we had new players reaching the required rank to join our raptor party, sometimes we didnt tell them anything. The smart ones would imitate what the others are doing, but most likely a new DD will hit from behind and get one shotted by tail swipe for 1500 dmg and caster/archer would get one-shotted by fire breath. Needless to say, they all learned their lessons quickly XD. And to whoever that says this game's spell/weapon skill animation suck, the game has awesome animation on special moves....except all the cool looking moves are only available to mobs.

Tiger228 wrote:

We saw those guys take on dodore a bit ago, and they definitely need to work on their teamwork and strategy. The easier fights are a good opportunity to get into a good rhythm. But one or two people messing up on that fight can wipe the whole group, so that NM alone gives the 15 man party size a reason for existing. Not to mention any future content that would be good for 15 players, or even more.


Dodore is definitely the hardest of the 5 overland NMs ....until you discover the NM's AI tendency. Our LS party wiped on 3 of our first 5 attempts, then we noticed that the eyes like to stand still and use only ranged attack. After that the fight becomes so easy that I wish we had not discovered it.

Tiger228 wrote:

I won't lie though, I did love the feel of the old 6 man parties in ffxi... It was infinitely better than solo sp'ing, and usually more fun than 15 player sp parties, though they did have their moments... If they brought back the old 6 person party / 3 party alliance system, I wouldn't complain a bit.


6 person party and 15 person party each has its advantage/disadvantage. Personally I don't care either way as long as it takes team work and is exciting enough to not put me to sleep. In a 6 person party, each player has more responsibility. However, because of that, people tend to be more picky when choosing who to invite to their party. After filling in the "required" roles of tank, healer, refresher/clarity, CC, you only have two spots left for DD. So it can become difficult for the less "desirable" classes to get a party invite. For 15 player sp parties, there are a lot more flexibility.

KaneKitty wrote:

Yeah, sometimes I feel like I can just hit things randomly and the monster will be dead in about eleven seconds regardless; other times I can't even manage to engage a monster before it's been killed. It's not that I'm lazy or overly sluggish, it's just that every monster is made of ancient clay pottery and adventurers have sledgehammers for hands. X_x


That's because people only fight easy mobs that die quickly, due to the current sp system rewarding fast killing of weak mobs. The game has lots of mobs that take a while to kill and some even require a little team work and strategy, but people don't want to fight them because they give the same amount of sp as coblyns.

Edited, Jan 26th 2011 1:56am by tyrionfigaro

Edited, Jan 26th 2011 2:06am by tyrionfigaro
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#34 Jan 26 2011 at 1:12 AM Rating: Good
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211 posts
Well, overall, I do think we could use more challenging stuff, and I wouldn't mind if the jobs had more things to keep track of and do than just a couple of actions. I miss playing RDM in FFXI, it was a lot more engaging than player Conjurer is now.

That's not to say you can't have fun with the way things are now, but yes, way too many mmo's cater to the button mashing players... Would be nice if SE went after the more strategic style. With them basically admitting the game is in beta still, they have a great opportunity to revamp things and still keep afloat, thanks to the PS3 launch, which is a trump card most mmo's don't get... Not to mention SE isn't some tiny company that goes paycheck to paycheck with their dev costs. They have the money to put some work into the game in hopes of profits in the long run, and that looks to be exactly what they're doing. I hope they can pull it off, most game companies couldn't, but I think they do have a solid chance to depending on their choices now.

And yeah, Dodore is pretty easy with a decent setup, and is a pushover with a good one. I hope they bring back some hard fights, especially for the missions/quests... I'm so disappointed in how easy the main quest has been so far... But, the game still looks more fun than the other mmo's on the market, so as long as they don't make it worse, I'll stay around. If they make it better, well then it'll be great.
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#35 Jan 26 2011 at 2:20 AM Rating: Default
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395 posts
If you have 15 person parties and 8 people are doing nothing you should fight harder mobs.
Do some battle regimen chains on tougher mobs to weaken them down to a point they are killable.
You can reduce their offensive and defensive capabilities, then end with a burst of WS > WS > Nuke.

8 person BR chains can be deadly, you'll likely see some hits over 2k dmg, and probably 5k+ from the chain.


You never tried doing the Black Eft parties with 15 people at rank 25? I know it's a little harder since the Protect/Shell nerf, and positioning is important, but there's no reason you can't have 15 person parties, and on Levequests doing rank 40 leves on 5 star is good SP leve-linked with 6+ links.

With large parties you have the ability to get max debuffs on the enemy in a quick amount of time, and with the BR chains you can take really tough mobs, like Raptors or Efts, several levels before you could normally take them in 6 person parties.

Generally though, you SHOULD do EXP grinds in parties of 6 or less, and save 15 person parties for Behest, because the level of mobs you need to kill to get good SP in 15-person parties tend to one shot kill even with protect/shell.

The game is giving you the option, and tools, that you need to play how you want to play, and how your friends want to play with you.

Edited, Jan 26th 2011 3:20am by Eadieni
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#36 Jan 26 2011 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
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I'd just like to point out to the poster above that SP stops increasing after 5 links on a leve, it's better to save the rest and do the leve again with another 5 links.

I have 3 r40 leves that I do with my LS every reset, we always have a full 15 man group. The mobs are tough enough (especially dogs) that nobody stands around doing nothing. It's not unheard of to gain 50k sp on those leves that way.

Edited, Jan 26th 2011 9:59am by Jefro420

Edited, Jan 26th 2011 10:00am by Jefro420
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#37 Jan 26 2011 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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395 posts
Dunesfolk for Dinner, r40 leve brokenwater.
Make sure you get that one. Abandon the leve before the last peiste.

Link it with your buds.

Enjoy massive SPs :)
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#38 Jan 26 2011 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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Eadieni wrote:
Dunesfolk for Dinner, r40 leve brokenwater.
Make sure you get that one. Abandon the leve before the last peiste.

Link it with your buds.

Enjoy massive SPs :)

add toads at iron lake and ranine reveries at broken water to that list and you have the same leves my LS does every reset.

Edited, Jan 26th 2011 1:01pm by Jefro420
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#39 Jan 26 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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I gotta say I agree with the OP.

I can't help but to think back to FFXI (I hate to compare this new game to an old one, but its all we have to compare) where you had the alliance of 3 six-person parties. This gave rise to a lot more strategic planning outside of just figuring your plan of attack on a NM or in a BCNM. You had to think about having the proper support/DD in each party to maximize your survivability. This time though, you just have 2-3 mages in one huge party who AoE spam cure and theres not much to it. You don't have to completely pay attention to whats going on because you have those other healers doing the same thing on top of none of these mobs being of any real challenge. No challenge, no strategic party management.

But yeah, also the point you guys make about not being able to target things easily in the midst of the chaos. Dealing with the battle effects isn't terribly bad, but it does get in the way with 15 people spamming abilities. I hope something is done about either the need of very large parties, the difficulty of enemies, or a split-party concept as per FFXI be implemented.

P.S. The one thing that gets me the most is that mobs who's name is highlighted in red above the actual game model do not have a similar name highlighted in red for the targeting Mob Name/HP bar. That is one thing that adds to frustration of targeting when you have, say, 2-3 groups of the same mob-type in the same area and one group is pulled.
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