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Customization: A Philosophical DebateFollow

#1 Jan 26 2011 at 2:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Square Enix has been regularly presenting us with tidbits of their grand plans for revitalizing FFXIV on a weekly basis. These morsels of information have been feeling high on gristle low on meat to me for the last few weeks. As such, I thought I would put forth a more general question for discussion while we wait for them to toss us the real meat.

I have been contemplating the amount of customization offered by the Armory system and I have found myself wondering, neither in the positive nor the negative, whether absolute customization is really a good thing from a development perspective. There are two extremes you can examine for contrast. On one end, there are games like FFVI, in which characters have abilities that they learn at various levels and, with small exception, nothing you do is going to change that. On the other end of the spectrum, FFX allows near complete customization with no real levels. Each character is what you make of it, for better or worse.

The question I put forward is this: given that FFXIV already swings heavily toward FFX, from a general perspective, do people even embrace a game in which you could learn every skill and customize a character from the whole pool of abilities, rather than one in which you gain abilities over time through levels? Or perhaps a better question would, where is the balance? At what point are you giving players too much freedom, and at one point are you taking too much away? There are a lot of points to consider. For instance, in a system such as that, would the satisfaction of learning a new ability hold the same draw as the classic ding? Would the desire to find the ultimate combination of skills out-weight the human need to conform to established templates? Would the complete lack of templates discourage people from even trying to develop common trends?

Even in FFXIV there are basic templates that you build off of, limits that guide players into various corridors of ability sets. Would it be better or worse, if there were a game with no such limits/guides?
#2 Jan 26 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Well considering that abilities and spells don't really doing anything significant, I'd say it doesn't really matter in this game.

If I had it my way, I'd go back to FFXI's job system. There were actual party roles. You had your own unique way of helping out your party. In FFXIV, battles are just a 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 fest.
#3 Jan 26 2011 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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mout12 wrote:
If I had it my way, I'd go back to FFXI's job system. There were actual party roles. You had your own unique way of helping out your party. In FFXIV, battles are just a 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 fest.

Agree battles in FFxiv is similiar to what you mention, but if your only spamming 1 key, thats your fault in sticking with just 1 ability/move. As far as going back to FFxi battle scheme, gonna disagree with ya on that for the following reason. I would rather have someone active and at the keyboard during a party then having someone click on attack, move up so that he swings at the mob and then walks away from the computer for like 5-10 mins at a time. You can always tell hes afk with auto attack by just pulling the mob away from the person you suspect is doing so and leeching xp. He is just standing there with weapon drawn doing nothing.

@OP - sorry for the first part, but it had to be said.

FFVII also had the ability for everyone to learn everything with the materia by maxing it out and moving it around to your other players. Years after I beat the game I was bored and actually maxed out all the char with every spell, move and such. It made it rather trivial w/e battle popped up being you destroyed it. Perhaps in their mind with content passed rank/lv 50 perhaps we will need all of those.

I'm on the edge as far as customization with being a casual player and having the ability to choose where my stats go and to play my character they way I feel. Would hate to be placed into a build that forces me to do other things such as FFxi did, with gear and subjobs and such. There will always be a great, good, poor, bad way of playing things.
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#4 Jan 26 2011 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Right now I believe that, especially in MMOs, it takes time to develop certain skill sets and classes, as dictated by the community.

Meaning over time the community would decide through attrition or whatever, what skills are "optimal" and necessary and what skills most people would (have to) choose.

It doesn't matter how many skills or how little freedom. In the end the community will decide.

This even works for Single Player games; just read the FAQs. "It is strongly encouraged that you have Ultima for this boss fight..."

However...

My argument has always been that the more freedom you have with your skills, the less defined you will and can be.

If you're a PUG but all you do is use LNC abilities, then what are you?

That's why I really want, definition. I think strong character/player bonding happens when you identify with what class you're playing. FFXI hit the nail on the head by both making you retain your character throughout the entire game, but giving him/her strongly identifiable classes (by way of classic FF classes) that were immediately fulfilling by use of specific abilities per each class.

In FFXIV's case, too many abilities, PLUS the ability to share other abilities, PLUS not having a previous FF archetype really dilutes the bonding between character and player.
#5 Jan 26 2011 at 3:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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I love customization, when it's well implemented. Unfortunately I've yet to be convinced that it can be done well in a MMORPG. No matter how much freedom you give to people, in the end they will always gravitate towards a handful of generally accepted builds.

So you end up with something like XIV, where everyone is trying to be everything at once, and it just doesn't feel inspiring to me. I'll always prefer unique classes that are built from the ground up to fill one specific role. I usually find them to be deeper and more complex to master, and much more fun to play in the end.

I really disliked the FFX, FFXII and FFXIII leveling systems exactly for that reason. Sure, early on everyone starts at different spots on the grid/sphere, so the characters are actually different and unique. But the higher you get, the more similar they become...? How does that even make sense? I find it counter intuitive and end up feeling like it takes away the uniqueness of characters, making them bland and uninteresting.

One complaint I have that I never really see brought up, is that XIV currently restricts people from even using all of their OWN native abilities. What the ****? Restrict the amount, or what abilities I can grab from other classes, but let me use my whole ******** It's impossible to feel unique and grow attached to your character when you can't even use everything you learn. Why look forward to learning new spells/abilities, when you know you likely won't be using them anyway because you've already reached your maximum point allotment?

Full customization and hybrid classes always sounds amazing on paper, but it's so very rarely well implemented. I know I'll be welcoming whatever changes they'll make to create more unique, better balanced classes.
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#6 Jan 26 2011 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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the only problem with customization is simple. "its never been done before"

people are scared of not having a set role and before giving it a chance they want to go back to ff11...

I like that its different and i hope i can use all my skills because i learned them. besides MRD skills will ALWAYS be better as main MRD so the job system is still in play. i think because they game sucked at the start people want to take away all the things ff14 did and put old classic ways on it.

There are some things ff14 did right people i hope SE sees that.
#7 Jan 26 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
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Bruknarr wrote:
I love customization, when it's well implemented. Unfortunately I've yet to be convinced that it can be done well in a MMORPG. No matter how much freedom you give to people, in the end they will always gravitate towards a handful of generally accepted builds.

You bring up a good point here, the first is the trifecta of MMOs (quadfecta in FFXI/XIV) Healer, DPS, Tank, (and Support) have always and will always be the only four real classes. Everything else is just semantics. No matter how much customization you allow, ultimately, people will most likely distill them down to those 3-4 roles. But I don't think that that is necessarily a bad thing, as long as you give people a variety of ways to do those four roles, you will still have a variety of optimizations merely though player preference.

Kierk wrote:
In FFXIV's case, too many abilities, PLUS the ability to share other abilities, PLUS not having a previous FF archetype really dilutes the bonding between character and player.

This is another good point. What if the game had a set of classes, but you didn't fall into those classes to get abilities, but rather by getting abilities you fall into those classes. By this I mean let us say that the game rated abilities by their damage, healing, defense, and support power; then rated your character based on the class that you have built. In this way, everyone still has full customization, but players still have an aforementioned template to adhere to.

Let's say the game examined your damage and defense capabilities when you equipped abilities, then named you a Berserker when it sees you have over 9000 damage and less than 500 defense abilities. Do you think that this would allow players to "bond" with their characters in the same way perhaps? It would also give the player base a good gauge by which to make parties.
#8 Jan 26 2011 at 4:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Skills from other classes are weaker or have a longer cooldown. Party roles become more fleshed out as you get higher and have to fight enemies in groups. It's just too bad that there is nothing challenging enough to really warrant class roles, e.g. a Thaumaturge's debuffs will always be better than any other DoW or DoM stealing their skills, but the game is so ridiculously easy who even cares? "We're grinding leves, who wants in? Oh, looks like we have 10 Pugilists. Well that's fine." The fact that all DoW, DoM look the same and have the same plain animations doesn't help either. I myself believe the armory system can work (a simple tweaking of a skill's usefulness on other classes can deter other classes from using it); there's really just a lack of identity from class-specific gear and animations.
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#9 Jan 26 2011 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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SillyHawk wrote:
mout12 wrote:
If I had it my way, I'd go back to FFXI's job system. There were actual party roles. You had your own unique way of helping out your party. In FFXIV, battles are just a 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 fest.

Agree battles in FFxiv is similiar to what you mention, but if your only spamming 1 key, thats your fault in sticking with just 1 ability/move.


It's the game's fault for allowing that to be a viable way to complete leves.

My wife and I did an experiment in which we took on leves of "Party difficulty (☆☆☆)" and attempted to beat them as a duo using only our respective classes' Rank 1 starting ability, with no buffs beforehand and no cures throughout. Not only were we able to beat "difficult" leves this way, we were able to do them in about 6-7 minutes each, and never facing any deaths.

Is it really our fault for not pretending that it's necessary to use strategy? Only in the same way it's a player's fault for not making a blind/poison/confuse build in FFVI: the game should be hard enough to be impossible without decent skills/builds/equipment/strategy. If it's not, and you can beat the game spamming "attack," then the problem is that the game is badly balanced, not that the players aren't imaginative enough in their various ability choices.
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#10 Jan 26 2011 at 4:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hulan wrote:


Let's say the game examined your damage and defense capabilities when you equipped abilities, then named you a Berserker when it sees you have over 9000 damage and less than 500 defense abilities. Do you think that this would allow players to "bond" with their characters in the same way perhaps? It would also give the player base a good gauge by which to make parties.


I don't think bonding would occur in the same way but it would help. I do think that it would provide a cool sort of 'unlockable' job system.

I would even suggest that when you reach "Berserker" that you also get a cool new ability or tree of abilities. And perhaps a bonus to STR and ACC. It would give BOTH a in-game (tangible) incentive to level other classes while progressing on a specific class. A more game directed approach, rather than community directed.

And of course, the more you specialize, the more you run the risk of alienating parties, unless you're a class of high value. I don't know if that will ever be reconciled.
#11 Jan 26 2011 at 5:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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SillyHawk wrote:
As far as going back to FFxi battle scheme, gonna disagree with ya on that for the following reason. I would rather have someone active and at the keyboard during a party then having someone click on attack, move up so that he swings at the mob and then walks away from the computer for like 5-10 mins at a time. You can always tell hes afk with auto attack by just pulling the mob away from the person you suspect is doing so and leeching xp. He is just standing there with weapon drawn doing nothing.


I keep seeing this argument pop up all over these forums, but it's such a wild exageration. In order to keep an exp chain going in FFXI, the kill had to be completed in about 60 seconds while in the final stages of the chain. When a new mob comes in, it requires some input on the part of the player just to target and attack the new mob. So at most a person could stay away for one minute, give or take, without being exposed. People keep saying "walk away for 5-10 minutes" in an attempt to sway public opinion away from the FFXI style of partying, but it's neither accurate nor fair.
#12 Jan 26 2011 at 5:22 PM Rating: Good
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The customization is cool to an extent but it gets a bit ridiculous at times. How am I able to use Puncture on my PUG when my PUG doesn't use a bow? It feels goofy. So does casting spells on my archer. It just doesn't feel archer to me.

Almost every MMO that's come out in the last 8 years has let players level up solo if they want with no need for self cure magic.Whether it be through potions, bandages, or cooldowns; every class had a way of healing themselves. These methods would not however get you through group content or an elite/NM/named (whatever the @#%^ you want to call it) fight.

I don't see why SE couldn't figure out a better balance without me having to stand there and hit one over and over again while using healing magic to get the best results. It just boggles my mind.

Edited, Jan 26th 2011 6:22pm by Transmigration
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#13 Jan 26 2011 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
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Elswick78 wrote:
SillyHawk wrote:
As far as going back to FFxi battle scheme, gonna disagree with ya on that for the following reason. I would rather have someone active and at the keyboard during a party then having someone click on attack, move up so that he swings at the mob and then walks away from the computer for like 5-10 mins at a time. You can always tell hes afk with auto attack by just pulling the mob away from the person you suspect is doing so and leeching xp. He is just standing there with weapon drawn doing nothing.


I keep seeing this argument pop up all over these forums, but it's such a wild exageration. In order to keep an exp chain going in FFXI, the kill had to be completed in about 60 seconds while in the final stages of the chain. When a new mob comes in, it requires some input on the part of the player just to target and attack the new mob. So at most a person could stay away for one minute, give or take, without being exposed. People keep saying "walk away for 5-10 minutes" in an attempt to sway public opinion away from the FFXI style of partying, but it's neither accurate nor fair.


You may not of seen this happen but i have on many occasion. After the mob would die when you pulled it away they would just be standing there while your party is fighting the next battle. At lower levels it makes it a bit hard being you cant burn through it compared to when you are 75 in a merit party or even now in abyssea parties where other people help carry the load. Thats like if a tree falls down in a forest and no one is there to see it... did it really fall? If you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen and trust me it does.
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#14 Jan 26 2011 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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There are just limits to how you will be able to combine abilities in a game where you must cooperate with others. There is some thrill to be had from completing a challenge in a unique way but most people won't be looking for that particular thrill. The culture you live (or play) in will determine what style of play is accepted.

If this were a single player game like Chrono Cross you would be able to sculpt your character however you wanted and attack the challenges presented in the game the way you like. Alas, it is not, and people will always figure out what works "best", however they choose to define best, and expect you to play that way if you want to play with them.
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#15 Jan 26 2011 at 6:06 PM Rating: Good
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SillyHawk wrote:
Elswick78 wrote:
SillyHawk wrote:
As far as going back to FFxi battle scheme, gonna disagree with ya on that for the following reason. I would rather have someone active and at the keyboard during a party then having someone click on attack, move up so that he swings at the mob and then walks away from the computer for like 5-10 mins at a time. You can always tell hes afk with auto attack by just pulling the mob away from the person you suspect is doing so and leeching xp. He is just standing there with weapon drawn doing nothing.


I keep seeing this argument pop up all over these forums, but it's such a wild exageration. In order to keep an exp chain going in FFXI, the kill had to be completed in about 60 seconds while in the final stages of the chain. When a new mob comes in, it requires some input on the part of the player just to target and attack the new mob. So at most a person could stay away for one minute, give or take, without being exposed. People keep saying "walk away for 5-10 minutes" in an attempt to sway public opinion away from the FFXI style of partying, but it's neither accurate nor fair.


You may not of seen this happen but i have on many occasion. After the mob would die when you pulled it away they would just be standing there while your party is fighting the next battle. At lower levels it makes it a bit hard being you cant burn through it compared to when you are 75 in a merit party or even now in abyssea parties where other people help carry the load. Thats like if a tree falls down in a forest and no one is there to see it... did it really fall? If you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen and trust me it does.


I played for 6 years. I'm familiar with the situation you're referring to. I would even say I was guilty of it from time to time, being called away suddenly for some emergency or another. But the tenor of your post, at least my impression of it, would leave many to believe that under the FFXI system it was possible for players to walk away for 5-10 minutes without anyone knowing it, leaving others to shoulder their share of the burden. That's simply not the case.

I would equate your post to saying, "I don't fly because planes crash." Sure they do, but it is in fact more dangerous to drive than fly. It simply gets more attention when it happens, even though the occurences are few and far between. The situation you describe is the exception, not the rule. In fact, I would submit to you that it happens more under the current FFXIV system in Behest than it ever did in an FFXI exp grind party. How many people simply join the Behest party and then run around not doing anything, staying within range of the party to receive the exp? Alot more than went AFK to "make a sammich" in FFXI, I would say.

My point is, neither system is perfect. While the FFXI grind was mind-numbing at times for me, I can honestly say I prefer it to the button-mashing that is FFXIV combat. In order to bring FFXIV combat to a reasonable activity, it needs to be approached objectively. Neither "going AFK for 5-10 minutes" nor "pressing 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1" are accurate, objective statements.
#16 Jan 26 2011 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
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CatPredator wrote:
There are just limits to how you will be able to combine abilities in a game where you must cooperate with others. There is some thrill to be had from completing a challenge in a unique way but most people won't be looking for that particular thrill. The culture you live (or play) in will determine what style of play is accepted.

If this were a single player game like Chrono Cross you would be able to sculpt your character however you wanted and attack the challenges presented in the game the way you like. Alas, it is not, and people will always figure out what works "best", however they choose to define best, and expect you to play that way if you want to play with them.

Agreed, but this is less of a discussion about whether total customization will allow true player customization (because it won't, for exactly the reasons you mentioned). Rather, I'm more interested in whether people think it would even appeal to the masses to metaphorically plop a pile of abilities in front of them and say "have at it, see what you can build" (with a little more structure, but that would be the distilled essence of it). It's a theoretical debate on the psyche of the MMO community as a whole.
#17 Jan 26 2011 at 6:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Hulan wrote:
CatPredator wrote:
There are just limits to how you will be able to combine abilities in a game where you must cooperate with others. There is some thrill to be had from completing a challenge in a unique way but most people won't be looking for that particular thrill. The culture you live (or play) in will determine what style of play is accepted.

If this were a single player game like Chrono Cross you would be able to sculpt your character however you wanted and attack the challenges presented in the game the way you like. Alas, it is not, and people will always figure out what works "best", however they choose to define best, and expect you to play that way if you want to play with them.

Agreed, but this is less of a discussion about whether total customization will allow true player customization (because it won't, for exactly the reasons you mentioned). Rather, I'm more interested in whether people think it would even appeal to the masses to metaphorically plop a pile of abilities in front of them and say "have at it, see what you can build" (with a little more structure, but that would be the distilled essence of it). It's a theoretical debate on the psyche of the MMO community as a whole.


At the end of the day, people are sheep. The overwhelming majority of them will follow blindly along with whatever build is most generally accepted. Because of this, in the majority of cases it renders a diverse, dynamic character customization option moot, as they will all basically do whatever popular opinion dictates. The true question is whether or not it's worth having such a convoluted system in play to accomodate the true "snowflakes" of the MMO community.
#18 Jan 26 2011 at 10:00 PM Rating: Decent
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They should adapt FFXIII battle structure to help prevent the 1 smashing which would allow preloading abilities on a timer and put the no autoattack affects socilizing debate to an end. Characters should continue to be custimized like they were in tactics illusionist with time mage abilitys ftw.
#19 Jan 26 2011 at 10:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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You know, Radishspirit... that is actually incredibly ironic because FFXIII is x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x, lol. FFXIV is ridiculously easy, but I'm sorry, FFXIII takes the cake for most mindless combat system by far - you don't even have to move!
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#20 Jan 26 2011 at 10:27 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm more interested in whether people think it would even appeal to the masses to metaphorically plop a pile of abilities in front of them and say "have at it, see what you can build"


It would be more appealing in a PvP game where you opponent is constantly thinking and changing. Real time strategy games already aim to present you with this type of game play.

In a coop PvE game, the concept is still appealing, but I don't see a way you could make compelling content. Once you know what you're up against, you can just pick the strongest counter and play that. There needs to be a dynamic aspect to play that forces you to make decisions on the fly. There is also a huge balancing problem when it comes to PvE content under such a flexible system. If you think people were complaining about not getting a party on their DRG/RDM a lot, just wait for some of the snowflakes in a game like this...
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#21 Jan 26 2011 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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Aye I know you could blast threw the battles but jamming X ;however, you could also load abilitys A B C point is there was an option so it could easyily be worked in. Love it or hate it FXIII was at least complete XIV battle system just feels like there is a peice missing from it.
#22 Jan 27 2011 at 1:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elswick78 wrote:
Hulan wrote:
CatPredator wrote:
There are just limits to how you will be able to combine abilities in a game where you must cooperate with others. There is some thrill to be had from completing a challenge in a unique way but most people won't be looking for that particular thrill. The culture you live (or play) in will determine what style of play is accepted.

If this were a single player game like Chrono Cross you would be able to sculpt your character however you wanted and attack the challenges presented in the game the way you like. Alas, it is not, and people will always figure out what works "best", however they choose to define best, and expect you to play that way if you want to play with them.

Agreed, but this is less of a discussion about whether total customization will allow true player customization (because it won't, for exactly the reasons you mentioned). Rather, I'm more interested in whether people think it would even appeal to the masses to metaphorically plop a pile of abilities in front of them and say "have at it, see what you can build" (with a little more structure, but that would be the distilled essence of it). It's a theoretical debate on the psyche of the MMO community as a whole.


At the end of the day, people are sheep. The overwhelming majority of them will follow blindly along with whatever build is most generally accepted. Because of this, in the majority of cases it renders a diverse, dynamic character customization option moot, as they will all basically do whatever popular opinion dictates. The true question is whether or not it's worth having such a convoluted system in play to accomodate the true "snowflakes" of the MMO community.

Not sure if troll. But this is ZAM, after all, so I will assume you actually believe what you said.

Popular builds are often optimal builds; they are popular because they are optimal. A certain equipment set, a certain ability loadout and/or a certain playstyle is worth imitating if someone proves it's optimal. And I wonder why that is in any way bad. If the "sheep" are doing more damage than you because they allocated their points in a way proven to maximize damage, what then? Are you going to be a rebel and post how unique you are on ZAM for r8 upz or will you realize that following the dominant paradigm is not always a sign of blind ignorance?

A system that offers as much "diversity" as FFXIV will eventually be reduced to a handful of supercombos. In FFXI, even though many jobs sometimes competed for the same niche, each job had a distinct identity defined by its abilities, spells and skill levels. The subjob system (up to 75; don't know how it is now) was prohibitive enough to keep any job from losing its identity--except NIN, of course, but every MMO needs a **** class. Yeah, I said it.

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#23 Jan 27 2011 at 1:55 AM Rating: Good
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Almalexia wrote:
Elswick78 wrote:
Hulan wrote:
CatPredator wrote:
There are just limits to how you will be able to combine abilities in a game where you must cooperate with others. There is some thrill to be had from completing a challenge in a unique way but most people won't be looking for that particular thrill. The culture you live (or play) in will determine what style of play is accepted.

If this were a single player game like Chrono Cross you would be able to sculpt your character however you wanted and attack the challenges presented in the game the way you like. Alas, it is not, and people will always figure out what works "best", however they choose to define best, and expect you to play that way if you want to play with them.

Agreed, but this is less of a discussion about whether total customization will allow true player customization (because it won't, for exactly the reasons you mentioned). Rather, I'm more interested in whether people think it would even appeal to the masses to metaphorically plop a pile of abilities in front of them and say "have at it, see what you can build" (with a little more structure, but that would be the distilled essence of it). It's a theoretical debate on the psyche of the MMO community as a whole.


At the end of the day, people are sheep. The overwhelming majority of them will follow blindly along with whatever build is most generally accepted. Because of this, in the majority of cases it renders a diverse, dynamic character customization option moot, as they will all basically do whatever popular opinion dictates. The true question is whether or not it's worth having such a convoluted system in play to accomodate the true "snowflakes" of the MMO community.

Not sure if troll. But this is ZAM, after all, so I will assume you actually believe what you said.

Popular builds are often optimal builds; they are popular because they are optimal. A certain equipment set, a certain ability loadout and/or a certain playstyle is worth imitating if someone proves it's optimal. And I wonder why that is in any way bad. If the "sheep" are doing more damage than you because they allocated their points in a way proven to maximize damage, what then? Are you going to be a rebel and post how unique you are on ZAM for r8 upz or will you realize that following the dominant paradigm is not always a sign of blind ignorance?

A system that offers as much "diversity" as FFXIV will eventually be reduced to a handful of supercombos. In FFXI, even though many jobs sometimes competed for the same niche, each job had a distinct identity defined by its abilities, spells and skill levels. The subjob system (up to 75; don't know how it is now) was prohibitive enough to keep any job from losing its identity--except NIN, of course, but every MMO needs a sh*t class. Yeah, I said it.



Not a troll at all. I agree with everything you said. If I gave the impression that I was in support of the "snowflake" theory, I apologize. As you said, the popular builds are popular for a very good reason. They're not always as completely set in stone as we'd believe, but for all intents and purposes, they're popular because they're indeed optimal. The reason I said they will "follow blindly along" is not because I'm skeptical of the popular builds. Rather, it was the result of my disgust towards people who do things that are popular without knowing why. You could probably ask the majority of the players why their build is the most widely accepted, and they'll stare at you with a "deer in the headlights" look. They should at least have a reason for doing so, beyond "I googled it, and the internetz said to do it this way." Again, my apologies for not being more clear in my support of this.

In my opinion, the reason the system is so convoluted currently is because abilities aren't gimped badly enough when equipped cross-class. In FFXI, because of the way the subjob system was set up, abilities were effectively given a 50% penalty (half the level). In FFXIV, the penalty is nowhere near that harsh. Reducing the effectiveness of abilities equipped cross-class, as well as prohibiting them from being equipped on a job lower in level than the required rank to receive the ability, would go a long way towards bringing about more definition to the class system without completely removing everyone's "individuality". lol

Edited, Jan 27th 2011 3:02am by Elswick78
#24 Jan 27 2011 at 2:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Jamaz wrote:
Skills from other classes are weaker or have a longer cooldown. Party roles become more fleshed out as you get higher and have to fight enemies in groups. It's just too bad that there is nothing challenging enough to really warrant class roles, e.g. a Thaumaturge's debuffs will always be better than any other DoW or DoM stealing their skills, but the game is so ridiculously easy who even cares? "We're grinding leves, who wants in? Oh, looks like we have 10 Pugilists. Well that's fine." The fact that all DoW, DoM look the same and have the same plain animations doesn't help either. I myself believe the armory system can work (a simple tweaking of a skill's usefulness on other classes can deter other classes from using it); there's really just a lack of identity from class-specific gear and animations.


I like this. I do feel that there need to be some tweaking, especially into what core identity each class represents.

THM certainly has a role, as Jamaz points, out, as it can be the primary debuffer with heals. But who in a group would accept spending mana on debuffs when they can heal? Plus, in the duo with my brother, I actually tank a lot, while he DPS with LNC. ...the ****? Yeah, sap debuffs, and spam heal with the "raise defense while casting" skill. I only have 200 less HP than his, and we never seem to raise in total HP, either. So what is THM? Healer? Debuffer? Off-tank? Mind you, if we hunter oranges and reds, I certainly couldnt tank those...but why kill those? Same SP, risk of death and it takes forever. plus, you don't really have to use more tactice against reds, you either die or you live, it depends on whether the 2 puks do their special attack at the same time or not. Where's the skill in that?

Anyway, let's check out other classes:

CON? Damage, plus heals? I suppose, but if a class has heals, no one will want it for damage.

Plus...
LNC? DPS?
MRD? DPS? AOE tank?
PUG? Uhhhhm tank? DPS?
ARC? DPS? CC?
GLA? Tank? (NOT). DPS? Sure, if you put all LNC skills...lol

What is in common, though, seriously, between all DoW classes? DPS! It takes so long to do anything else, you may as well just spam damage, especially since that is all the game really supports, tactically. Change this, and MAYBE, the classes would work as they are as people would be forced to create new builds and use tactics that MATTER. But I still say make the dang Gladiator THE tank in the game. and stop with each class being DPS, that's weak sauce.
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#25 Jan 27 2011 at 3:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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If they want to stay solo only then this system is ok.
If they want to have parties at anytime then this system is horrid.

The current system offers too much customization as is. You can’t depend on someone to fulfill a role when they could change at anytime. Of course this only has an effect on Group play which I favor. As for solo play the current system offers tons of great things. The problem here is that with this system you can’t have viable grouping and solo game play.

They defiantly need to bring back the classic “Ding!” system. Currently acquiring a new skill is lackluster at best. If the skills were significantly better then maybe that could work.
Back in FFXI acquiring something like Fire II or Cure II was a big deal when leveling our first job. Now you just get the skills. They are nowhere near useful in most situations and when they are everyone has/uses them. Allowing any class to heal makes the actual healers feel like Cure II is just another useless spell.

Imo a game gets a lot more from making classes more specific and allowing the player to branch out rather than allowing everyone to be everything. I prefer to steer my character rather than being forced to have every skill for any situation. If I want to be a caster then I shouldn’t be required to have the skills to DD. If I want to be a caster then I don’t want to see the PUG casting spells like mine. Instead of feeling unique I am now nothing but another faceless player who can do anything you can.

Customization can only go so far before it begins to degrade the game. When everyone can and will have every skill then what’s the point of doing any of it? I always think of the WoW tradeskill system when I’m forced to think about FFXIV classes and armory system. Everyone in WoW had every Mat and every skill and pretty much none of them were worth the time spent on leveling them.

Lets all race to cap to be level 100 mimes! yay!
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#26 Jan 27 2011 at 3:58 AM Rating: Good
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By making it solo-friendly, they took the role-playing element out of the RPG.

In away, they made the old PvP vs PvE mistake; they tried to make all classes
equally good at soloing (PvP / 1 on 1 fights), severely weakening the PvE (group
vs group) strategical element.
#27 Jan 27 2011 at 4:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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First of all, I just want to say that I think FFXI has had the best mmo formula to date. FFXIV is still too young to tell, with so much yet to be seen, it's really still up in the air how well the whole armory system is going to play out.

I do value customization in some ways though... I like a lot of cosmetic customization especially, from character creation to colored chocobos, or in other games different mounts altogether.

As far as practical customization goes... It's a yes and no answer. I would like to be able to customize my role, but I don't want to be playing a dozen roles at once. I play a healer, so if I could customize my healer to set it apart from another healer, that'd be fine. I do not want my healer to be part melee, part black mage, or part tank though. Those are completely different roles and should be left to other players in my party. I don't solo unless I'm crafting or farming petty items, and I don't need a character that can do everything.

I could still see some room for viable customization though... Like if I could pull some abilities that help support/heal the group, they'd be worthwhile. From what I've noticed so far though, it's just kind of a mess. The impaired function of abilities from other jobs seems to wildly differ, when I use Sacrifice on my Conjurer, it works ok, but if I use any of the enfeebles or that stuff, they are horribly gimped. I think the system needs some serious revamping, and should probably hack away certain aspects while they're at it, so that non support/heal things for example, aren't usable by a healer. etc. etc. etc.

To be totally honest, after giving it plenty of thought, and a solid open minded try, I think I'd be more happy if they just scrapped it, brought back classic FF jobs, and let us "reroll our parameters", then go from there with a replacement to the subjob system, that was somewhere in between the two current systems.

I'd be more than happy if they just took away all my black mage traits, and replaced them with white mage traits. Then I'd gladly sub /brd or maybe /blm for aspir/siphon mp, and trade the armory system for a mount that was cooler than the chocobos, like a grass raptor from FFXIV or a sabretooth tiger from FFXI. XD

We'll see how it goes though... I'm a healer either way, and the blm crap my job gets is useless to me. I don't want that type of role system to change. I'm not about to start clubbing away at mobs because healing isn't enough... Yes I have a lack of abilities beyond just cures and spiritbind, but I sure don't want random BS stuff to do just because, I want more White mage things to do. It's really way to mindless atm, I don't even have to bother picking targets because of the auto AoE on every spell... Make the game harder, make it require more strategy, and for the love of god do not turn it into a solo grind.
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#28 Jan 27 2011 at 6:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Firstly, we are playing with very generic classes, more than likely these lead into sub class abilities for advanced classes. Now as far as how useful having hybrid builds, say your healers die, you have a lancer with 100% conj affinity filling the healer role, without having to change to conj, and without suffering a huge dps penalty for taking on a support role. Hybrids more often than not are support roles either backup heals or crowd control, which the only 2 roles support fullfills.

Another example would be a ARC having both 100% affinity in conj and thm, and using both abilities from both classes, to crowd control. That ARC would be highly specialized in managing adds, kiting a boss in a wipe, ect. Depending on how far this arc rolled back his stats and elements, could pull of this unique role very effectively.

This system is as only as limited as you make it out to be, but if you learn to think outside the box, and get away from ideals you once learned. That roles still exist with the potential for having far more specialization in every role and not just the tank, healer, dps roles. When the sh*t hits the fan, it's always nice to have more than the "wipe it up" option.

Look at the gear, some pieces are made for hybrids, they have dex and int, mnd and strength. SE did think this through.

Edited, Jan 27th 2011 7:27am by Spyrit178
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#29 Jan 27 2011 at 7:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Spyrit178 wrote:
Firstly, we are playing with very generic classes, more than likely these lead into sub class abilities for advanced classes. Now as far as how useful having hybrid builds, say your healers die, you have a lancer with 100% conj affinity filling the healer role, without having to change to conj, and without suffering a huge dps penalty for taking on a support role. Hybrids more often than not are support roles either backup heals or crowd control, which the only 2 roles support fullfills.

Another example would be a ARC having both 100% affinity in conj and thm, and using both abilities from both classes, to crowd control. That ARC would be highly specialized in managing adds, kiting a boss in a wipe, ect. Depending on how far this arc rolled back his stats and elements, could pull of this unique role very effectively.

This system is as only as limited as you make it out to be, but if you learn to think outside the box, and get away from ideals you once learned. That roles still exist with the potential for having far more specialization in every role and not just the tank, healer, dps roles. When the sh*t hits the fan, it's always nice to have more than the "wipe it up" option.

Look at the gear, some pieces are made for hybrids, they have dex and int, mnd and strength. SE did think this through.

Edited, Jan 27th 2011 7:27am by Spyrit178


^ This. I guess the biggest problem of the armory system is that it requires people to think.
#30 Jan 27 2011 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
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Hulan wrote:
Square Enix has been regularly presenting us with tidbits of their grand plans for revitalizing FFXIV on a weekly basis. These morsels of information have been feeling high on gristle low on meat to me for the last few weeks. As such, I thought I would put forth a more general question for discussion while we wait for them to toss us the real meat.

I have been contemplating the amount of customization offered by the Armory system and I have found myself wondering, neither in the positive nor the negative, whether absolute customization is really a good thing from a development perspective. There are two extremes you can examine for contrast. On one end, there are games like FFVI, in which characters have abilities that they learn at various levels and, with small exception, nothing you do is going to change that. On the other end of the spectrum, FFX allows near complete customization with no real levels. Each character is what you make of it, for better or worse.

The question I put forward is this: given that FFXIV already swings heavily toward FFX, from a general perspective, do people even embrace a game in which you could learn every skill and customize a character from the whole pool of abilities, rather than one in which you gain abilities over time through levels? Or perhaps a better question would, where is the balance? At what point are you giving players too much freedom, and at one point are you taking too much away? There are a lot of points to consider. For instance, in a system such as that, would the satisfaction of learning a new ability hold the same draw as the classic ding? Would the desire to find the ultimate combination of skills out-weight the human need to conform to established templates? Would the complete lack of templates discourage people from even trying to develop common trends?

Even in FFXIV there are basic templates that you build off of, limits that guide players into various corridors of ability sets. Would it be better or worse, if there were a game with no such limits/guides?


I find your post quite strange, I understand what youre asking but I would have placed VI and X the other way round. I prefered the customisation from VI equip any esper and learn any spell. Or learn all spells with each character you want. I didnt like what I saw as limited customisation of X. Well maybe my head is on backwards but I know I preferred VI and the system of espers. Didn't like the system of IX or X as much. Can't even remember what was in IX system. anyway, why compare to these when VII is my fav. Each character has uniqueness through stats, weapons and learns unique skills in the form of limit breaks but the focus was materia. I could give any character the abilities/spells I wanted. In XIV I give my character any weapon which my race will have different affinities for but the focus is skills and abilities learned which I can give any of them to my character.
I severely detest talent trees. I do not like that limitation at all. It makes me sick and never want to see one in any FF. Whats the closest we've had to one?
Having said all that XI was awesome and wouldn't mind seeing that again.

Wait Ive got it now,
What I Like: I choose this path, after XXpoints/time, I get XXXskill (FFVI, FFVII, FFXI)
What I dont Like: I get XXpoints, I buy XXX skill (FFX, FFXIII)

Whether I like to equip those skills any way I want is a bit different. If it makes sense like VII the materia contains the skill when it matures, I can equip that materia to anyone. VI character learns it from the esper and it stays learned. The equiping the skill in XIV doesnt seem to make much sense. I should be able to use any skill, pick it from a list at any time and not have to equip it (like VI) or make it more limited and only useable on that job(like XI).


Sorry for the disorganised ramble.
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#31 Jan 27 2011 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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It seems to me that with such great customization, player skill will be what separates players and defines roles.

I can see being in duos you would need to be more flexible, but in larger parties, there should be a good bit of communication before setting out where each player is assigned a role. It's up to the individual player to pull their weight through skill at the role.

If you are wanting to tank, set up your character as a tank. What will distinguish you from other tanks will be your skill at tanking and not what class name you tank with.

I'm thinking that we as a community have gotten used to being told what class can do what that when we're offered the freedom, it's overwhelming and frustrating to many. "Why can't SE just tell me what job is the best tank or make it so xxx class is the one tank?"

just my 2gil
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CoV, King Ghidora, Dominator retired
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Tabula Rasa, Super King, Grenadier retired
SWG, Hazero Ghidora, retired
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#32 Jan 27 2011 at 9:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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KingGhidora wrote:
It seems to me that with such great customization, player skill will be what separates players and defines roles.

I can see being in duos you would need to be more flexible, but in larger parties, there should be a good bit of communication before setting out where each player is assigned a role. It's up to the individual player to pull their weight through skill at the role.

If you are wanting to tank, set up your character as a tank. What will distinguish you from other tanks will be your skill at tanking and not what class name you tank with.

I'm thinking that we as a community have gotten used to being told what class can do what that when we're offered the freedom, it's overwhelming and frustrating to many. "Why can't SE just tell me what job is the best tank or make it so xxx class is the one tank?"

just my 2gil

this

I have fun playing more of a support role as a GLA in parties when there is more than one tank, that being said I can still tank when needed.

I don't want cookie cutter jobs, since when are more restrictions a good thing? just use your brain and equip abilities that fit the role you want to play. That's why we get more abilities than we can assign for each class, because not all of those abilities fit everyone's play style. You just need to mix and match the ones that fit yours and then you have your defined role.
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#33 Jan 27 2011 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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146 posts
Hulan wrote:

This is another good point. What if the game had a set of classes, but you didn't fall into those classes to get abilities, but rather by getting abilities you fall into those classes. By this I mean let us say that the game rated abilities by their damage, healing, defense, and support power; then rated your character based on the class that you have built. In this way, everyone still has full customization, but players still have an aforementioned template to adhere to.

Let's say the game examined your damage and defense capabilities when you equipped abilities, then named you a Berserker when it sees you have over 9000 damage and less than 500 defense abilities. Do you think that this would allow players to "bond" with their characters in the same way perhaps? It would also give the player base a good gauge by which to make parties.


I like the idea of using current game mechanics to bring further specialization and definition to the characters.

But do you think that just having a different class name when you meet the said requirements would be enough?

I think there would need to be further incentive, like berserker-exclusive traits/abilities in your example, once you meet the criteria. Still I like the general idea
#34 Jan 27 2011 at 2:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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146 posts
Hulan wrote:
Square Enix has been regularly presenting us with tidbits of their grand plans for revitalizing FFXIV on a weekly basis. These morsels of information have been feeling high on gristle low on meat to me for the last few weeks. As such, I thought I would put forth a more general question for discussion while we wait for them to toss us the real meat.

I have been contemplating the amount of customization offered by the Armory system and I have found myself wondering, neither in the positive nor the negative, whether absolute customization is really a good thing from a development perspective. There are two extremes you can examine for contrast. On one end, there are games like FFVI, in which characters have abilities that they learn at various levels and, with small exception, nothing you do is going to change that. On the other end of the spectrum, FFX allows near complete customization with no real levels. Each character is what you make of it, for better or worse.


Even in FFXIV there are basic templates that you build off of, limits that guide players into various corridors of ability sets. Would it be better or worse, if there were a game with no such limits/guides?


In my opinion, the FFX system you are referring to was very good and balanced... until you started exping abusively at the end of the game.
At this point, every character became the same and only weapon attacks and limit breaks were relevant at doing damage.

Starting from here, IMO, customization is good but it has to be constrained in some way to keep the player interested in leveling in a specific way, the same way it was in FFX under normal leveling conditions.
#35 Jan 27 2011 at 3:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jefro420 wrote:
KingGhidora wrote:
It seems to me that with such great customization, player skill will be what separates players and defines roles.

I can see being in duos you would need to be more flexible, but in larger parties, there should be a good bit of communication before setting out where each player is assigned a role. It's up to the individual player to pull their weight through skill at the role.

If you are wanting to tank, set up your character as a tank. What will distinguish you from other tanks will be your skill at tanking and not what class name you tank with.

I'm thinking that we as a community have gotten used to being told what class can do what that when we're offered the freedom, it's overwhelming and frustrating to many. "Why can't SE just tell me what job is the best tank or make it so xxx class is the one tank?"

just my 2gil

this

I have fun playing more of a support role as a GLA in parties when there is more than one tank, that being said I can still tank when needed.

I don't want cookie cutter jobs, since when are more restrictions a good thing? just use your brain and equip abilities that fit the role you want to play. That's why we get more abilities than we can assign for each class, because not all of those abilities fit everyone's play style. You just need to mix and match the ones that fit yours and then you have your defined role.


yeah, I love the customization and get sad when I see people calling for things to be more cookie cutter. Don't like casting spells on ARC? Then don't! Don't want your GLA to act like a red mage? Then don't equip abilities like that! There are plenty of options for people... and I can see why maybe some find that overwhelming - but I really like it.

I mean, I would love to see BST come out, for example - with charms tuned to specific mobs... and I can tell ya I will find it awesome if I can play my GLA like a red mage beside my marmot pet.

XD

Others can disagree but honestly I love the customization - I have NEVER partied with someone who has the exact same abilities as me on the bar - and I think that is cool. It also means I can get benefit from leveling lots of jobs - whereas in XI I was pretty much just wasting my time by leveling almost everything.

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#36 Jan 27 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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Daishihan wrote:
Imo a game gets a lot more from making classes more specific and allowing the player to branch out rather than allowing everyone to be everything. I prefer to steer my character rather than being forced to have every skill for any situation. If I want to be a caster then I shouldn’t be required to have the skills to DD. If I want to be a caster then I don’t want to see the PUG casting spells like mine. Instead of feeling unique I am now nothing but another faceless player who can do anything you can.

Customization can only go so far before it begins to degrade the game. When everyone can and will have every skill then what’s the point of doing any of it? I always think of the WoW tradeskill system when I’m forced to think about FFXIV classes and armory system. Everyone in WoW had every Mat and every skill and pretty much none of them were worth the time spent on leveling them.

Lets all race to cap to be level 100 mimes! yay!

This is an interesting point; what do you suppose it is that makes makes MMO players want to do "everything" if given the chance? If you did not have to learn every ability for a job - say, for instance, that you bought abilities/spells FFXI style, but you could equip them FFXIV style - do you think that people would still feel compelled to do "everything" or would they pick a style they wanted to play and just purchase those types of abilities?

Personally, I feel that the MMO mentality is one of completion, and that that is what drives players to get "everything". On the other hand, plenty of people who play FFXI level multiple jobs on the side but still consider themselves a BLM or a WAR. Perhaps that is the key, finding a system in which people can do everything, but they love doing one thing.

Metin wrote:
I find your post quite strange, I understand what youre asking but I would have placed VI and X the other way round. I prefered the customisation from VI equip any esper and learn any spell. Or learn all spells with each character you want. I didnt like what I saw as limited customisation of X. Well maybe my head is on backwards but I know I preferred VI and the system of espers. Didn't like the system of IX or X as much. Can't even remember what was in IX system. anyway, why compare to these when VII is my fav. Each character has uniqueness through stats, weapons and learns unique skills in the form of limit breaks but the focus was materia. I could give any character the abilities/spells I wanted. In XIV I give my character any weapon which my race will have different affinities for but the focus is skills and abilities learned which I can give any of them to my character.
I severely detest talent trees. I do not like that limitation at all. It makes me sick and never want to see one in any FF. Whats the closest we've had to one?


This is just a idiot moment on my part, and I beg your forgiveness. It has been a long time since I have played VI and I was scrounging for a good example. I had forgotten about equipping espers, thank you for reminding me.
#37 Jan 27 2011 at 4:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've enjoyed reading through this thread very much. Everyone is making very good points for each differing opinion. Customization is great in my opinion. not just abilities but appearance as well. I like to be able to express myself in my character, visually and just in how they work.

That being said, too much customization really just confuses things. And that is one of the problems ffxiv is struggling with right now. This is a bit anecdotal and personal, but it represents my views well. Back in school (waaay back) when we were given assignments in english to write a paper, I did much better with the assignments where we were given a subject and a goal. I did considerably worse when I was given complete freedom to choose my topic and source material. Sometimes having to work with limitations allows for more creativity than being given complete freedom.

I loved ffxi's subjob system. It allowed for optimal set-ups for certain things, but then also allowed for alot of freedom as well. And as long as you didn't try to force your freedom on others (Waaah, no one invites my melee rdm to parties!) it allowed for alot of enjoyment and diversity.

Right now ffxiv is just way too freeform. Yes you can use almost any ability on any job, but most abilities are so similar to everything else out there that why even bother?

FFXIV's problem right now is not one of customization and how much freedom we should have, it's more an issue of nothing is being clearly defined. The only class really that has a defined position is gladiator, it's a tank. everything else almost seems like it is just building blocks for trying to make your own class, but even the building blocks are insufficient. It's like trying to build an exact, life-sized replica of the empire state building using legos.

Classes need their own unique identity, their own defined role. Once that is set we can figure out how much freedom there should be within that role.
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#38 Jan 28 2011 at 6:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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F3rth wrote:
I've enjoyed reading through this thread very much. Everyone is making very good points for each differing opinion. Customization is great in my opinion. not just abilities but appearance as well. I like to be able to express myself in my character, visually and just in how they work.

That being said, too much customization really just confuses things. And that is one of the problems ffxiv is struggling with right now. This is a bit anecdotal and personal, but it represents my views well. Back in school (waaay back) when we were given assignments in english to write a paper, I did much better with the assignments where we were given a subject and a goal. I did considerably worse when I was given complete freedom to choose my topic and source material. Sometimes having to work with limitations allows for more creativity than being given complete freedom.

I loved ffxi's subjob system. It allowed for optimal set-ups for certain things, but then also allowed for alot of freedom as well. And as long as you didn't try to force your freedom on others (Waaah, no one invites my melee rdm to parties!) it allowed for alot of enjoyment and diversity.

Right now ffxiv is just way too freeform. Yes you can use almost any ability on any job, but most abilities are so similar to everything else out there that why even bother?

FFXIV's problem right now is not one of customization and how much freedom we should have, it's more an issue of nothing is being clearly defined. The only class really that has a defined position is gladiator, it's a tank. everything else almost seems like it is just building blocks for trying to make your own class, but even the building blocks are insufficient. It's like trying to build an exact, life-sized replica of the empire state building using legos.

Classes need their own unique identity, their own defined role. Once that is set we can figure out how much freedom there should be within that role.


I think we already have our roles pretty well defined. Tank, DD, Support(buff/debuff) and Healer.

I think its not class names that need retooling or restrictions placed on them, but how we think of our characters. We have the freedom to customize our characters to fill one of the needed roles and be great at it, or we can set up for two or more of the roles with limited effectiveness at each role.

I think what we should be looking at is how to build the different types of tanks and DDs and such. We should be asking each other questions like*:
"What skill/class combo will make the best evade tank?"
"What skills will improve on my front line DD?"
"Can I blood tank with xxx skill set up?"


*I would have used more examples, but it's early/late and my coffee's not ready yet
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FFXI Hazero, Elvan PLD, retiered.
CoV, King Ghidora, Dominator retired
AoC, Mecha Ghidora, Dark Templar retired
Tabula Rasa, Super King, Grenadier retired
SWG, Hazero Ghidora, retired
DCUO, Crushlordian Earth Tank Retired
#39 Jan 28 2011 at 10:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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And interesting, and unusually civil discussion, yes.

What I miss in the current system is "real" customization
that forces you to trade-off one thing for another. At the
moment, with the huge amount of skill points you get @30+,
there is virtually no reason to NOT equip spells like cure
or sacrifice for use in emergency situations. So virtually
everybody has them equipped.

That's not customization. It's just assembling 100% of the
must-have skills, and adding in some unimportant little extras.


There's a lack of skills that are very powerful, but also take
a lot of action points to equip. Like a "+25% melee damage"
trait that uses up 9 action points. That would force people
to really think whether they really need those shock spikes
on their marauder. ^.^/
#40 Jan 28 2011 at 10:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Btw, they could do away with all that "increased cooldowns / somewhat less effective"
crap for subbed skills if they simply tripled the equipment costs for skills that are
not native to your class.

Possibly with another trait availible at the respective guild that lowers equipment
costs for subbed skills from that class, but itself has a high cost to equip -> payoff
only when equipping several skills from one "subjob" class.

Complete freedom, but with restrictions that require you to actually make *real* choices.
And not only to spend your youth on leveling X jobs you don't really want to play just to
attain ability Y which happens to wait at LV 40. Which is, well, just... outdated.

At least for me.
I prefer games that force me to think to those that force me to be an impotent nerd.
#41 Jan 28 2011 at 12:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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I like the system so far. There is tons of stuff to customize. Each Class has it's own characteristics that make it Unique.
Gladiator - Equips Shields
Maruauder - Steadfast, Makes it's abilites unique to it
Lancer - Many Class Specific Skills

Archer - Burst Damage (Have you ever tried to Damnation with Archer, it just wont hit)
Archer skills work best with archer

Thaum - AOE Heals and Debuffs, Damage
Conj - AOE Heals and Buffs, Damage

There are many Cross Class Skills that have Optimal Ranks, as well as penalties for equipping to another class (AOE option). Party play doesn't require everyone to run around with CURE II and Protect II. Why would you need it if you team mate can cast it AOE? When you should be bashing on the boss. But at the same time, a solo player would love to have Buffs and Debuffs.

Most of these people here make it sound like there are Gladiators running around with Iron Lances spamming Simian Thrash. Or Thaum with Vintage Haubergeon spamming Chaos Thrust. Maybe a Conjurer would be good with Wide Volley II and Thunderstorm Axe. Since we like to go for Extreme Flame Crying :-)

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 1:01pm by SlayerXero
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#42 Jan 28 2011 at 12:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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SlayerXero wrote:
There are many Cross Class Skills that have Optimal Ranks, as well as penalties for equipping to another class (AOE option). Party play doesn't require everyone to run around with CURE II and Protect II. Why would you need it if you team mate can cast it AOE? When you should be bashing on the boss. But at the same time, a solo player would love to have Buffs and Debuffs.

Most of these people here make it sound like there are Gladiators running around with Iron Lances spamming Simian Thrash. Or Thaum with Vintage Haubergeon spamming Chaos Thrust. Maybe a Conjurer would be good with Wide Volley II and Thunderstorm Axe. Since we like to go for Extreme Flame Crying :-)

This is actually a good point, and is the reason I've got a couple different macros to change out my second row of abilities depending on whether I'm solo or with a party and depending on what that party make-up is like.
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#43 Jan 29 2011 at 1:29 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Square Enix has been regularly presenting us with tidbits of their grand plans for revitalizing FFXIV on a weekly basis.


I want to take this thread seriously (and I don't -mean- to troll) but it's hard to take OP seriously when his first line opens with this.

My use of "regularly" and "weekly" don't include 45 days of radio silence. I'm still a little ****-hurt about the BIG NEWS: NEW DEV TEAM REORG followed by absolutely nothing. I hope this "Letter from Producer" series is (in fact) "regular" because it was just what the doctor ordered, but it took so! long. I'm also underwhelmed by the upcoming patch, but I'll save my judgment for when it actually hits the news stands.

Okay, but really, I'll try to read from Sentence #2 onward. -_-
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#44 Jan 29 2011 at 1:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kirutaru wrote:
Quote:
Square Enix has been regularly presenting us with tidbits of their grand plans for revitalizing FFXIV on a weekly basis.


I want to take this thread seriously (and I don't -mean- to troll) but it's hard to take OP seriously when his first line opens with this.

My use of "regularly" and "weekly" don't include 45 days of radio silence. I'm still a little ****-hurt about the BIG NEWS: NEW DEV TEAM REORG followed by absolutely nothing. I hope this "Letter from Producer" series is (in fact) "regular" because it was just what the doctor ordered, but it took so! long. I'm also underwhelmed by the upcoming patch, but I'll save my judgment for when it actually hits the news stands.

Okay, but really, I'll try to read from Sentence #2 onward. -_-

Ok, I know I'm going to regret dignifying this with a response, since this thread has been doing so well with staying on topic, but.... Perhaps if you had read literally one more sentence, you would have picked up on the fact that the lack of new information is, in fact, one of the main reasons why I stared this thread. The fact of the matter is, Square Enix has been releasing regular updates, one every week in fact - virtually clockwork. The fact that none of these posts have been terribly substantial is immaterial. Forgive my attempt at literary flow in a forum post.
#45 Jan 29 2011 at 1:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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291 posts
Quote:
What if the game had a set of classes, but you didn't fall into those classes to get abilities, but rather by getting abilities you fall into those classes. By this I mean let us say that the game rated abilities by their damage, healing, defense, and support power; then rated your character based on the class that you have built.


This is a really cool idea, however difficult to implement. It makes up for the previous quote I posted 100x over. I'd like a game that did that - especially a FF game.

I think people have the "wrong mentality" when approaching XIV. (I place the blame on SE for the record, but won't get into it). You should be developing the "whole character" and not just thinking of the game in black & white terms. The concept might have been executed better if they scrapped "Classes" (rather than telling us they were scrapping leveling, then not scrapping it) and just having a Physical Level and Weapon Skill (Level). This is in effect what they have, but instead of saying "I'm a level 50 character with Rank 50 skill in sword." People ignore the Phys and say "I'm a Rank 50 Gladiator."

The person crying about how casting magic on Archer "doesn't feel like Archer" is borderline pathetic. I could make the same argument that if I learn how to shoot Fireballs out of my fingertips when I hold a stick, why can't I shoot them when I hold a bow? If you don't like casting spells on Archer, don't equip spells. You can (in fact) use potions for most of your curative needs. There's no reason for a DoW to use DoM magic if they don't want to and you don't have to break the "character" you've build.

The game gives us the freedom to make the kind of character (not class) we want to play. If you WANT to play a Sword/Shield wielding debuffer you can. It really bugs me this Armory system seems (according to the majority) so unsatisfying. It should be the exact opposite. The player should/could set out from the beginning knowing exactly what they want to play and then set out to play it.

That's how I feel anyway. I wanted to heal so I took up both DoM. Pretty soon, though, I'm going to have to go through and farm Defender & some job traits to make my healer even more effective. I don't really sit around wishing my "Conjurer" felt more like a "Conjurer" because it's what I make it up to be. If more people felt like that (or were more open minded) then I think they'd see the strengths in the system.

Don't get me wrong, though, it does need to be tweaked. Class specific gear and abilities will help span this gap in player mentalities though.
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#46 Jan 29 2011 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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It would be pretty great if you equipped a certain group of abilities, you get a bonus trait or even some kind of advanced class title with trait/s. That would give the people who like the templates a goal but not pigeon hold you into any one class or play style. Just a thought
#47 Jan 30 2011 at 2:32 AM Rating: Good
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I really don't mind the Armoury system as it is, and I think it has good potential.

However, I would like to see each class get more unique abilities as well that other classes cannot use. Create a good balance between skills only that class can use and learn cross-class skills that everyone can use for any class. It doesn't have to be so black and white, and S-E already has the groundwork laid out for it. (See: The two starting abilities for each class)
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