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#1 Jan 26 2011 at 10:15 PM Rating: Decent
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120 posts
Hello again everyone!This topic is for PvP fans and people willing to try it on FFXIV! I loved PVP in FFXI, it really did make you a better player. You had to think outside the box, you had to have great awareness of your surrounding from those people who had invisible on all the time, and you had to work with people you had on your team even if you didn't like them. A time where enemies become friends! Not to mention Ballista Royale was really epic! Anyways! I was wondering how do you think PVP in FF14 will be? Will it be the same format as in XI? I don't have the game but I do hear changing weapons changes your job...which kinda sounds lame in my opinion. I loved that a WAR can dual wield axes and swords and switch of main hand to sword for spirits within, or another usual setup like PLD/NIN using KC in mainhand to spam flash nova so he cant get hit. Aha! Another reason why I loved PVP, so many unusual setups and where a lot of those useless gear in the auction house you find useful when it comes down to situational battles.

I never played other MMORPGs but I know WoW is very famous. Reason why I don't like it is because I think I'm too late to join and too much catching up and the graphics look like someone farted in a shoe!I'm kidding! I know graphics dont make a game all the time, I respect WOW.So yeah, I know SE has a lot of plans for FF14 and I know they will bring it to the right direction, and I know PVP will be implemented, but how good will it be? How will it attract players to play? I usually get common answers like "There are no rewards" or "Its mindless". Well PVP for me was fun, just like why yall are playing FFXIV at its current state right? Who cares about rewards! PVP was always about titles, epeen for a few others, the thrill of living on the edge of battle and well, because its just fun! I'm bringing this up because even though FFXI was successful, the PVP department didn't really get the attention it needed! So even when this game does get successful and once PVP is implemented, how good and balanced will it be with the job changing system and what not >_>....
Anyway, thanks for reading! Have a good one!
#2 Jan 26 2011 at 10:20 PM Rating: Good
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It's gonna be a long time until PvP is implemented - probably last on the list of priorities. I do feel that if you know your class building mechanics (taking certain skills from other classes) you can create a real juggernaut and kind of abuse the combat system. Then again, this is definitely not the place to find balanced PvP (or any other MMO for that matter). I'd stick to PvE in my MMOs and move onto LoL, Starcraft, or console fighters if I wanted to beat up on other people.
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#3 Jan 27 2011 at 12:19 AM Rating: Good
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VitaminD2112 wrote:
I loved PVP in FFXI, it really did make you a better player... I loved that a WAR can dual wield axes and swords and switch of main hand to sword for spirits within, or another usual setup like PLD/NIN using KC in mainhand to spam flash nova so he cant get hit.


I really think that you just illustrated why PvP was mildly broken in FFXI, not why it was good. Not only were jobs completely unbalanced for PvP but, to use your example, someone with a KC spamming Flash Nova gains a huge advantage so far as to be utterly unfair -- talk about a situation where gear > skill!

In conclusion, I think you "loved PVP in FFXI" because you know little about it (you did say that you've never played a game that focused on PvP).

VitaminD2112 wrote:
I loved PVP in FFXI

VitaminD2112 wrote:
[in FFXI] the PVP department didn't really get the attention it needed!


Wait, now my head kind of hurts; did you love the PvP content, then, because it wasn't balanced? o_O
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#4 Jan 27 2011 at 12:52 AM Rating: Good
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211 posts
This game is a PvE game. And it's balanced towards it. Making a game for PvP requires that you balance towards that. As such, though we may someday see a minor implementation of PvP, probably "sports like" and most likely pushed out of the way, it will never be balanced, nor will it receive much attention from the players nor the dev team.

If PvP is your main draw to MMO's, you might want to branch out and try some other mmo's. Many of them focus almost exclusively on PvP, with WoW being the standard example. Yes it's old, but you can catch up to everyone else in a month, since the game stresses making multiple characters instead of taking one character a really long way. Seriously, get a friend who plays, and you can get triple xp to 60, then you can grind the same handful of gear everyone else uses in a few weeks, and you'll be caught up with everyone else in no time. The graphics are kind of meh, as is the whole game imo, but that's because I'm not a PvP fan.

If you want a newer game, they are making several WoW clones you could try, or several others. Just try them, can't say you don't like them until you do. I tried them and prefer this game over them. You might be missing out on your preferred experience though.

But long story short, this game is just not meant for PvP. Whatever PvP we get will be very minor, and that's if we get any at all. If you're still **** bent on PvP, and refuse to try other games, you might be sol for a long while. Just something to consider.
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#5 Jan 27 2011 at 1:06 AM Rating: Decent
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A general rule of thumb is that pvp with a multiclass system with more than 3 abilities will never be balanced. As far as I know, no MMO to date has managed to maintain both a healthy (100k+) player base and completely balanced small group PvP.
However, there are quite a few mid-quality korean games that have managed to perfect the gameplay mechanics of large scale siege warfare. The first to do it was Lineage, followed by Dark Age of Camelot (the only western game to manage that feat), then Lineage 2, and after that most devs have copied the system those have used but not balanced abilities around it.
Thus, most games have one of 3 ways of dealing with PvP.
1. ***** PvP balance. It can bite our shiny metal burros (what, you think I'd drop an A-Bomb here?). Make leveling anywhere from moderately time consuming to the entire point of the game. Some games may even utilize PvP as the main draw, but then make leveling a real pain and never bother to balance it (Archlord, many other Korean PvP-based games).
2. Balance the game completely around PvP. ***** PvE except for story lines. Make leveling either incredibly fast or optional.
3. Balance the game around PvE, but try to balance it around PvP too, which merely leads to more imbalances across the board. Make leveling even faster than true PvP games so every time you completely break a class, you can just tell your players to re roll, which results in them playing the game for many more months than they would otherwise. Yeah, that game. You know the one.

Edited for a typo or 2. Maybe 3.

I guess you could call "turn it into a card game" a way of dealing with it. Some games do that <.<




Edited, Jan 27th 2011 1:15am by Uryuu
#6 Jan 27 2011 at 1:23 AM Rating: Default
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2,202 posts
Tiger228 wrote:
This game is a PvE game. And it's balanced towards it. Making a game for PvP requires that you balance towards that. As such, though we may someday see a minor implementation of PvP, probably "sports like" and most likely pushed out of the way, it will never be balanced, nor will it receive much attention from the players nor the dev team.

If PvP is your main draw to MMO's, you might want to branch out and try some other mmo's. Many of them focus almost exclusively on PvP, with WoW being the standard example. Yes it's old, but you can catch up to everyone else in a month, since the game stresses making multiple characters instead of taking one character a really long way. Seriously, get a friend who plays, and you can get triple xp to 60, then you can grind the same handful of gear everyone else uses in a few weeks, and you'll be caught up with everyone else in no time. The graphics are kind of meh, as is the whole game imo, but that's because I'm not a PvP fan.

If you want a newer game, they are making several WoW clones you could try, or several others. Just try them, can't say you don't like them until you do. I tried them and prefer this game over them. You might be missing out on your preferred experience though.

But long story short, this game is just not meant for PvP. Whatever PvP we get will be very minor, and that's if we get any at all. If you're still **** bent on PvP, and refuse to try other games, you might be sol for a long while. Just something to consider.


I liked your cheapshot at WOW, i approve :)
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#7 Jan 27 2011 at 2:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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211 posts
It wasn't a cheapshot. I have a couple friends who still play WoW, and I had some fun in the game with them, it just dried up real fast compared to the FF games. I did love all the novelty toy items and mounts though, and stuff like that. And the raids/dungeons were fun the first couple times, there just wasn't enough of them. FFXI had expansive amounts of PvE to pick from... WoW had a few raids. But that's the point, because WoW had tons of PvP content and the multiple characters aspects that I never touched.

My point was that the game isn't for me. I don't like it. I'd rather stop playing MMO's than go back to it. But that doesn't make it a bad game. I've never seen Blizzard make a game that wasn't of exceedingly high quality, I just prefer a different style, different mechanics, different everything pretty much. I also wasn't really big on the WoW community, but that's not really Blizzards fault.

But a lot of people really like WoW. And if you haven't at least tried it, go get the free trial before you go and bash it. It's really not a half assed game, like I said I just differ widely on what I consider a good game, and since it's a completely subjective matter, the only solution is for me to play something else. I'm sure a lot of people who think they hate the game, because of all the trash talking and easy mode labels would probably enjoy it if they gave it a chance.

So if you're not in line with the strong team based focus FF games tend to develop, don't like the idea of etiquette and cultural diversity, and can't be bothered with a much longer term game development as opposed to multiple characters and quicker progression, (not to mention a complete lack of PvP) you should give other games a try before you go pestering this games dev team to change the game towards what like every other mmo on the market is doing. It's good to have variety, and the industry really needs it.
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#8Ostia, Posted: Jan 27 2011 at 3:27 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Woooshhhh!!!!
#9 Jan 27 2011 at 4:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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211 posts
Ostia wrote:

Woooshhhh!!!!


You quoted my entire post, and tossed out a single sentence that could be easily misinterpreted at least half a dozen different ways.

Learn to communicate better if you want me to understand you. I just picked a response that seemed most relevant to anyone reading it who may have thought I was taking a cheapshot at the game based on your crummy post lol. :P
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PvR fun!
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#10 Jan 27 2011 at 5:33 AM Rating: Good
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The best PvP is one with no restrictions. Kill, Die or Hide. You decide.
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#11 Jan 27 2011 at 7:37 AM Rating: Decent
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120 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
VitaminD2112 wrote:
I loved PVP in FFXI, it really did make you a better player... I loved that a WAR can dual wield axes and swords and switch of main hand to sword for spirits within, or another usual setup like PLD/NIN using KC in mainhand to spam flash nova so he cant get hit.


I really think that you just illustrated why PvP was mildly broken in FFXI, not why it was good. Not only were jobs completely unbalanced for PvP but, to use your example, someone with a KC spamming Flash Nova gains a huge advantage so far as to be utterly unfair -- talk about a situation where gear > skill!

In conclusion, I think you "loved PVP in FFXI" because you know little about it (you did say that you've never played a game that focused on PvP).

VitaminD2112 wrote:
I loved PVP in FFXI

VitaminD2112 wrote:
[in FFXI] the PVP department didn't really get the attention it needed!


Wait, now my head kind of hurts; did you love the PvP content, then, because it wasn't balanced? o_O


What are you talking about? PvP was balanced at some point in the game's younger days. It just got retarded once BLU and COR came out, then more unbalanced once abyssea expansions came out. I understand some games focus on PvP like WoW but if FFXIV made an effort in getting people for it, I'm sure they would attract a lot of players. I don't know SE's plans but they seem to target a specific audience right? Story in a game is one thing, then crafting or whatever other hobbies, NM hunting, questing etc. I hear they're getting ideas from other MMOs right? WoW for example. Aint WoW well-known for PvP? If they don't put that much focus on it, FFXIV population will me limited. You will be surprised how many love PvP. To me, I get bored fighting a virtual monster in endgame once in a while, so PVP is a good thing to do for a change. My intention was to discuss how PVP will be in this game, no arguments really or telling me to play another game that focuses on PVP. Flash nova wasn't broken, it was broken once PLD got enlight. That's 50 damage per swing >_>...

I know a lot about PVP, because my brother has been playing it for years and still is.I know playing and spectating are two different things but tbh, I kinda get into it just watching at times. I just don't really like playing other people's character. It looks fun though! It's just that FFXI was good and I want to see a PVP content here.I say skies the limit when it comes to side content, add the mini games, casinos or whatever.I don't know whats up with everyone saying "This game doesn't focus on PVP so play something else" tf!? It's for something to do when you want a change in things. What I'm trying to say is this game should be like Disney World and who is Disney World's target audience? Everyone! It's for kids, couples, business people, old people!
But geez, so far you're a bigger jerk than Thomas Edison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr0cqfjWzLQ
#12 Jan 27 2011 at 5:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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60 posts
Honestly, even though this isn't meant to be a pvp based game, a few small things couldn't hurt at all. If they would add in some small capture the flag type scenario and utilize the gladiator arena for arena matches, it could really tide over all the people screaming that there's nothing to do. In PvP, no matter how many times you replay it, you will never get the same experience, so it always provides you with something new. Do this, and give minor rewards for it, and it could add a whole new element of fun to the game (and we all know it could use a little more of the "fun" factor).

As long as the dev team kept it mildly fair, but did not try extremely hard to balance for PvP, it could still be a PvE focused game with a mild PvP experience for those who want it. This, however, is just one man's opinion, and although i definitely would not want to see PvP added in before more essential things like actual side quests and more storyline quests, battle system fix, etc, it could still be a viable option somewhere down the road in a month or so.
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#13 Jan 27 2011 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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I would love it if we could duel in the arena... balance? pfffft. I don't care. Since we can level anything on one char - if you are unhappy with the performance of your char in PVP - play on a different job or try a different combo of abilities. Would be great if items were allowed too because people might use more potions...

/rubs her alchemist hands together/
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#14 Jan 27 2011 at 8:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I would love to see some kind of betting arena set up. I'm going way back to the days of Dragon Warrior 3 here, where you could gamble on mobs fighting each other and were given odds (like 1:4:4:12). I would like to see lots of different variations on this. Contestants should have to pay an entry fee, and be rewarded for winning such as a percentage of the money taken in by the colloseum. Rewards would have to be balanced so that successful contestants make gil, unsuccessful ones lose gil, spectators can make gil through correct betting (with odds) and so that linkshells CANNOT exploit the process. To prevent linkshell exploitation, the only gil rewarded beyond what is put into the system by contestants/spectators should be in the range of levequests. I think not putting much extra gil into the system would help prevent people from throwing fights and whatnot, but I also think that if 50 people watch and bet they could get a little more bonus VS 0-5 spectators. The odds for generation would have to be based on level of something similar (I'd prefer total element/attribute points) with maybe a hard override for contestants. i.e. R50 Conjurer VS R42 Tharumage yields 1.8:5.6 payout odds. The contestant would have to get paid more than his own entry fee but less than both entry fees, and the difference between those would make up a portion of spectator payouts (the other portion supplied by betting spectators.) Then, because the colloseum made so much gil from spectators (lets say there are 12 people betting, four of whom win) the victor gets 25% royalties of what the house takes on.

In homage to FFVI, betting could also take place on an individual basis. Perhaps two contestants could place an item up before the fight - I bet my helm VS your longsword. If only one contestant signs up, I would like to see them fight somewhat random mobs, like betting an elixer to have Chaupan to come out and sneeze you away. I always loved the randomness of betting my items in FFVI for the rare Relic. The lower the item rank/gil, the easier the mob, the higher odds in favor of the contestant for spectator payout.

If no contestants sign up, I would still like to see these colloseums function at all times. Mob Vs Mob fights. This is how Dragon Warrior 3 worked. There was always an opportunity to bet on the upcomming fight. So I guess I would like to see PVP, PVMob, MobVMob.
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#15 Jan 28 2011 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
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NO. It doesn't take anything more than an Archer with multishot to drop someone in 2 hits.



Edited, Jan 28th 2011 9:49pm by Spyrit178
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#16 Jan 28 2011 at 11:06 PM Rating: Good
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3,530 posts
Domino7337 wrote:
i definitely would not want to see PvP added in before more essential things like actual side quests and more storyline quests, battle system fix, etc, it could still be a viable option... in a month or so.


I agree, but... probably more than a month. XD
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#17 Jan 28 2011 at 11:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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<----this guy's opinion, and everyone has one. I never want to see PvP in my role playing. I'd rather see more challenging PvE content added. If I want PvP I'll throw in Black Ops.
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