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Would you be in favour of removing fatigue?Follow

#1 Jan 27 2011 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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Just a quick question to the player base about this one. To me it seems most people have grown complacent with the idea of fatigue, but that no one is really in favour of it. I think that given the amount of grinding involved in this game, fatigue is sort of an extra, unnecessary barrier to leveling.

Since we know we're being listened to, perhaps now is the time to reopen this discussion so the devs take notice. I think there's more at stake here than an infringement upon a player's liberty to level how he or she sees fit. If I was working at SE, I'd be concerned about fatigue being a major turnoff for anyone looking to get (hardcore) into this game. I can also see fatigue being a major ******* for people with the inclination to 'party grind' post the upcoming patch, as their efforts will be undermined by this barrier. To the best of my knowledge, there has never been another mainstream MMO to utilize such a system (and probably with good reason).

Sorry if this topic feels like a bit of a dead horse but this is something that's always irked me about the game, and I feel it warrants further discussion and analysis by the new (and seemingly more open-minded) dev team.
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#2 Jan 27 2011 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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I don't really care either way, when I hit fatigue, it's usually only the first level, ie 10% and I grind though it while I finish my leves. It's usually gone within a day or two. Regardless of fatigue I'm usually able to gain around 50k sp running leves w/my LS.
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#3 Jan 27 2011 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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As much as it irks me in theory, in practice I haven't come remotely close at hitting the fatigue 'wall.'
#4 Jan 27 2011 at 1:48 PM Rating: Decent
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As much as it irks me in theory, in practice I haven't come remotely close at hitting the fatigue 'wall.'


As I mentioned, and I'm just speculating, but I see this becoming more of an issue when party SP gets fixed and we're back to party play. It's easy not to hit fatigue if you're soloing slowly for 100 sp a pop and you only have a couple hours. Just imagine how you'll when you're doing a quick 300-400 sp a pop in a party and you cap out half way into your available play time.
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#5 Jan 27 2011 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
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The lower the fatigue threshold - the less grind there needs to be.

The higher the fatigue treshold - the more grind there needs to be.

As most people are aware, the fatigue is not really that relevant anymore. Even if you hit it, you can still play for a long time before it starts hurting your progress significantly.

And as everyone is aware, there is a lot of grinding in this game as of right now.

These two aspects of the game are not separate. One causes the other. Both systems exist to slow down our progress, but they cater to different camps of players. A low fatigue threshold means casual playstyle can be quite effective. A high fatigue threshold means hardcore playstyle is the best, as you can play for longer periods of time.

For SE to make their decision based on player feedback on this subject, the playerbase needs to understand the function of the mechanic completely. Which is something I don't think they do at this point.

As a matter of fact, many Korean MMO's and pseudo-MMO's use this kind of system already. They are also not too grindy because of it.
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#6 Jan 27 2011 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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I have hit it twice since early release and even the effects are not that bad they should get rid of it. Its like getting a shot,it doesnt hurt to bad but who the **** wants to just get a shot for no reason sometimes.
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#7 Jan 27 2011 at 1:57 PM Rating: Default
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I like the idea of fatigue. People are in such a rush to hit 50 and then realize that there isn't any end game and they complain even more.

It's not a race.....Go see what your family looks like after 6 months....Enjoy the ride.
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#8 Jan 27 2011 at 1:57 PM Rating: Decent
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The lower the fatigue threshold - the less grind there needs to be.

The higher the fatigue treshold - the more grind there needs to be.


&

Quote:
Both systems exist to slow down our progress, but they cater to different camps of players.


If you removed it entirely then everyone would be satisfied because they'd have the freedom to choose, so what's your point?

Quote:
For SE to make their decision based on player feedback on this subject, the playerbase needs to understand the function of the mechanic completely. Which is something I don't think they do at this point.


How is it that we need to 'understand' the mechanic first (I'm not sure what you're even getting at with this, btw) before we can request its removal, when we can clearly see/measure its effects?

Quote:
As a matter of fact, many Korean MMO's and pseudo-MMO's use this kind of system already.


Like what? Anything that's widely known, or are we talking obscure titles?
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#9 Jan 27 2011 at 1:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Fatigue is not a big deal. There are a myriad of other problems with the game still that are much more noteworthy.
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#10 Jan 27 2011 at 2:00 PM Rating: Default
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Fatigue is not a big deal. There are a myriad of other problems with the game still that are much more noteworthy.


I think we're all aware of this fact, but considering that it would probably be fairly simple to remove, it's not like it would draw a ton of man-hours from SE's side. I can't state technical time-requirement specifics, so I'll defer to one of programmers lurking in the midst should he/she choose to pipe up.
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#11 Jan 27 2011 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
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This is a pretty 1 sided question if you go straight for a yes or no answer


of course we want fatigue gone, but should it be


its like asking people "do you think we should have double the SP gains we do now" or "should all gear be free" or "should experience required per level be lowered"

the player is always going to go with the response that benefits them, and removing fatigue is a benefit
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#12 Jan 27 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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If you removed it entirely then everyone would be satisfied because they'd have the freedom to choose, so what's your point?


I'm saying you don't change one without the other. If they made the fatigue threshold lower, they would also lower the amount of grinding you need to do. And vice-versa.

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when we can clearly see/measure its effects?


I don't think people understand that most all the features in the game have wider consequences if you change them. If you understand what the intention of the system is, it's easier to make informed statements about changing it as well.

Quote:
Like what? Anything that's widely known, or are we talking obscure titles?


Not really, no. C9 is the most popular one, which is a pretty good game although not an MMORPG and more like an online RPG.
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#13 Jan 27 2011 at 2:03 PM Rating: Default
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I'm saying you don't change one without the other. If they made the fatigue threshold lower, they would also lower the amount of grinding you need to do. And vice-versa.


Sorry, I still don't follow-- why not? Or why can't you?
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#14 Jan 27 2011 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Sorry, I still don't follow-- why not? Or why can't you?


Both systems have been created to accomplish the same thing- to slow down the progression speed of the player.

There is a balance right now and what you are proposing is the same as telling them to change that balance. In all honesty, if this is what needs to be done I'd rather see them keep the system as-is and lower the TNL's needed to level instead. That should be more beneficial than removing the limitation from the upper end of the curve that only hinders the hardcore in the first place.

And honestly, with the amount of grind in 35-50 currently I'd rather see them make the fatigue threshold lower and drastically reduce the grind as the result. But I'm casual so I'm biased.

Edited, Jan 27th 2011 11:07pm by Hyanmen
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#15 Jan 27 2011 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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i personal do not think it should be removed unless they up the amount of sp needed per level. I only say this because i like a game that feels like a real accomplishment when you reach the level cap and making it take a long time is one factor that gives me that satisfaction. There are many other issues that need to be addressed in order for a longer leveling up time to be fully enjoyable but i still feel that the fatigue system at least puts a wall in place for some people that will hit it. This is just the way i feel and I'm sure many others do not feel the same way but i have a lot of free time right now and plan on playing this game for years to come so i am in no hurry to reach the level cap
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#16 Jan 27 2011 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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I'd say that 99.999% of people fall into one of three categories. Either:

- Fatigue doesn't affect them
- Fatigue affects them, but they deal with it.
- Fatigue affects them, and they think it should be removed.

The amount of people who are affected by fatigue AND like it are a very very tiny minority. Most of the people who actually LIKE the fatigue system aren't affected by it and out of everyone else, they either want it removed or they don't feel too strongly.

I see the intended benefit behind it, but it's almost like having your parents put vegetables on your plate as a kid; you really don't like them so you either suffer through it or you just ignore them, but either way you don't like being told "They're good for you! You'll thank me later!"
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#17 Jan 27 2011 at 2:19 PM Rating: Decent
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There is a balance right now and what you are proposing is the same as telling them to change that balance. In all honesty, if this is what needs to be done I'd rather see them keep the system as-is and lower the TNL's needed to level instead. That should be more beneficial than removing the limitation from the upper end of the curve that only hinders the hardcore in the first place.


Ah okay, I see what you mean.

My only concern with lowering the TNLs is that the SP earned particularly for people at higher levels will be wasted. When they made the prior adjustment to the SP-curve, players didn't get the full reimbursement for their lost SP. You just got moved as close as possible (within 1 SP) to your next level and that was it. It would have been a more complete remedy had players had the excess SP above and beyond what the new level caps were applied towards their previously current level. So for example, if a player went 30-40 and it took 100k SP (I know this isn't accurate, just for the sake of this example here are the numbers) pre-patch, then post-patch it took only 80k SP, then said player should get the extra 20k SP applied to his/her level, which would put this person at level ~42 or so in this example. In short, people who worked hard for their SP get screwed with SE's reallocation system the way it is.

Personally, I have no problem having higher TNLs if and only if there is a fairly efficient leveling system to go with it. So imagine that the fix for party SP is spot on-- the rate at which you're gaining SP will be substantially higher than previously, which in turn negates high TNL costs on the basis of time invested.



Edited, Jan 27th 2011 2:19pm by Onionthiefx
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#18 Jan 27 2011 at 2:25 PM Rating: Decent
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In all honesty, in due time both mechanics are going to be toned down or removed completely. Grind exists so that players won't catch up to the development- so when the developers get far enough, they can lower the TNL's as well (or raise the amount of SP you get- either way works really). It's a slow process (because fleshing out the game is slow) but it'll always get better as time goes on.


Edited, Jan 27th 2011 11:26pm by Hyanmen

Edited, Jan 27th 2011 11:26pm by Hyanmen
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#19 Jan 27 2011 at 2:26 PM Rating: Default
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i personal do not think it should be removed unless they up the amount of sp needed per level. I only say this because i like a game that feels like a real accomplishment when you reach the level cap and making it take a long time is one factor that gives me that satisfaction.


I agree, but only to an extent. I feel there's a fine line between achieving 'satisfaction' in this way, and sadism. Grinding for 80 SP on Coblyns to 50 as it stands is torturous. Sure, it feels good as **** if you actually get to 50, but from the people I've spoken to who has leveled via this manner have been extremely frustrated and beleaguered.

I'm a firm believer that in order for you to value something, you must make an investment in it: whether that be a relationship, your job, or even a game. No one likes things that are too easy, and most people really enjoy a challenge. Ideally, a challenge should provide some degree of satisfaction while doing it, and upon completing said challenge one should not lament any aspect of it. The reward should justify the means, you should be able to say 'man, that was worth it'. And as was said, in XIV, this is just not the case.
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#20 Jan 27 2011 at 2:27 PM Rating: Default
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I see the intended benefit behind it, but it's almost like having your parents put vegetables on your plate as a kid; you really don't like them so you either suffer through it or you just ignore them, but either way you don't like being told "They're good for you! You'll thank me later!"


What are we supposed to be grateful for here exactly?
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#21 Jan 27 2011 at 2:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I know for me, it feels like an accomplishment when I hit fatigue. It's like a merit badge in boy scouts or something. I wear it proudly lol.
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#22 Jan 27 2011 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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I always thought it was a temporary thing due to lack of content and holding people back due do to the delayed release of the PS3.

Anyone actually think Yoshida would leave in such a poison to help get players back? I don't. Announcing that fatigue has been abolished would definitely send a positive message to those who are waiting for good news and are on the fence as to whether or not to pay a monthly sub someday.
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#23 Jan 27 2011 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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I always thought it was a temporary thing due to lack of content and holding people back due do to the delayed release of the PS3.


Underneath all the reasons and theories people may come up with or we may have been told, I believe this to be the real intent behind the fatigue system. It bears mentioning then that once content, or things other to do than grind are implemented, the perceived requirement (on SE's side) for the constraint should no longer be present.
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#24 Jan 27 2011 at 2:37 PM Rating: Default
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In all honesty, in due time both mechanics are going to be toned down or removed completely. Grind exists so that players won't catch up to the development- so when the developers get far enough, they can lower the TNL's as well (or raise the amount of SP you get- either way works really). It's a slow process (because fleshing out the game is slow) but it'll always get better as time goes on.


For sure, even in SE's case: look at XI and Abyssea.

I remember once upon a time though SE told us XIV wouldn't have a normal numeric leveling system. People thought it might play out like FFII. I've accepted the reality that they couldn't deliver on this promise. But what I do expect is that they throw us a bone, and at least give us a fair way to make it through the tedious task of leveling. If they really want to differentiate their product, SE should increase the ease of leveling. Again, the plausibility of this comes back to content: people won't stay around if there isn't anything fun to do. That's why things such features such as PVP and the Gold Saucer idea(s) are definitely worth our attention.
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#25 Jan 27 2011 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:


And honestly, with the amount of grind in 35-50 currently I'd rather see them make the fatigue threshold lower and drastically reduce the grind as the result. But I'm casual so I'm biased.



Yeah I agree with this - I would rather have smaller TNLS with more fatigue cause I like to play a lot of jobs - so I would get to make more overall progress under a system like that.

However, I am biased... cause that would benefit me.
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#26 Jan 27 2011 at 2:52 PM Rating: Decent
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There are already several people with rank 50s, some with multiples. Get rid of fatigue you arent doing anything but ****************** off your customers with it.
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#27 Jan 27 2011 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
In all honesty, in due time both mechanics are going to be toned down or removed completely. Grind exists so that players won't catch up to the development- so when the developers get far enough, they can lower the TNL's as well (or raise the amount of SP you get- either way works really). It's a slow process (because fleshing out the game is slow) but it'll always get better as time goes on.


Edited, Jan 27th 2011 11:26pm by Hyanmen

Edited, Jan 27th 2011 11:26pm by Hyanmen


Pretty much this. The fatigue system, from what I understand, sounds like it was designed to stall for time while they scramble to add content to the game. Once there's more to do than level or craft, I would expect the system to vanish.
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#28 Jan 27 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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I think both fatigue and weapon/armor damage should be removed.

One doesn't even really ever affect us, one is so bad at rank 35+ you have to start carrying 2 spares around if you want to use your job for more than 2 hours without stopping what you're doing for lolrepairs.

Fatigue is pointless.
Gear damage is punishment for playing the game.

They are both stupid.
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#29 Jan 27 2011 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
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I can say that i hate fatigue more then the people of ZAM hate me.
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#30 Jan 27 2011 at 3:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Get rid of it. Don't penalize me for playing.
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#31 Jan 27 2011 at 3:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well lets not make the discussion based on the assumption there is no content.
Because that's going to be fixed in time regardless.

If there was content would you mind a slow leveling system?
I personally never hit the fatigue wall on my way to 50, even going from 38 to 50 in 2 weeks. You hit the first threshold at 50% through Rank 18 going from 1 to 20 in a day, then roughly every 10k after that, but even so I've seen people go from 1 to 30 in a week and not notice anything major.

Fatigue really only seems to affect crafters a lot in this game right now, because your spending money per synth vs killing another mob. At 120 SP a kill going down to 110 it's not a big deal.


SE intended, at least with what they projected via interviews and FAQS, was to -not- make FFXIV about trying to hit 50 as quick as possible to jump into doing HNMs with a LS, but rather to have a slow, long, difficult journey full of adventure and quests, and lots of grind. Sure, what we actually got was Final Coblyn 14, but assuming we get the content we expect, theres nothing wrong with having slow meaningful grinding. In fact, we need a Level-Sync.

NMs are great but SE originally made a point about not trying to compete with WoW by doing the same setup - The "quick grind" to max level, so you can jump into raiding and gearing up. They intended on storyline, and questing, and if they slowly fill in that content I don't mind fatigue or slower leveling, but perhaps better visuals of how far into fatigue you are would be useful.

Of course they could just add that Rested SP/XP that WoW/EQ2/Lotro (and others) has, where you get a exp bonus the longer your not playing for a set amount of SP, on a per job basis. And, remove Fatigue in doing so, like +25% rested bonus, and +0% when it wears off. ...... maybe -25% if you go -insanely- far ahead, like 35 levels in a week :P

A big problem with the whole fatigue system is that its an annoyance, not a hinderance. It adds, at most, 1 extra week to your rank 50 journey. If they want to make it meaningful they need increase the amount it lowers your SP, like at the first threshold (80k ish) you lose 50%, then 10% each one after until 0%. (no, im not saying im in favor of this, just that they either need to stick by it, or get rid of it, because right now it serves no purpose). It's either stopping you from getting 50 in a week or it isn't, and if you can still hit 50 quickly it's just annoying. (if they did stick the the values I just cited, you'd basically hit the impassible wall at rank 25, and again at about 35, then 40) Grinding 12 hours a day will only make you wait 1-2 fatigue thresholds before being able to hit 50

Edited, Jan 27th 2011 4:35pm by Eadieni
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#32 Jan 27 2011 at 3:49 PM Rating: Good
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If I see anyone EVER mention getting rid of gear damage or fatigue...it will be an instant rate up from me. The rest of your post can be pure garbage.

That means even you Corny.

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#33 Jan 27 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I'd say that 99.999% of people fall into one of three categories. Either:

- Fatigue doesn't affect them
- Fatigue affects them, but they deal with it.
- Fatigue affects them, and they think it should be removed.

The amount of people who are affected by fatigue AND like it are a very very tiny minority. Most of the people who actually LIKE the fatigue system aren't affected by it and out of everyone else, they either want it removed or they don't feel too strongly.

I see the intended benefit behind it, but it's almost like having your parents put vegetables on your plate as a kid; you really don't like them so you either suffer through it or you just ignore them, but either way you don't like being told "They're good for you! You'll thank me later!"



this 100%

people who it does not bother are not even near high levels. If i get a good party and get 80k sp im already in yellow. that means i have to wait a week for it to reset.

Now what does this mean? starting from level 40 (i think) its over 80k tnr. That means in order to rank up i would need to 1) get 1 rank a week. 2) blow through it and get less sp a week (which we all do) 3) level something esle.

This is a stupid system that needs to be dropped ASAP. SE is making rank up other jobs that i do not want to rank up. It was put into place so people with a lot of time would stay close with casuals. Guess what SE it's actually doing the oppsite. people who are rank 30 trying to catch up to rank 50 are actaully slowed down with this method. this is stupid.

I am sorry to bring WoW into this but they did it right. they did not punish hardcore players but the rewarded casuals by giving extra XP to players who did play for a week (or so i heard ima ff fan i never played it). This is the better system. DO not punish your base SE that makes them leave.......

End rant
#34 Jan 27 2011 at 4:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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I like the idea of fatigue. People are in such a rush to hit 50 and then realize that there isn't any end game and they complain even more.


this is what gets to me, yes there are lots of people who are in a rush to hit the level cap.... BUT THIS GAME IS THE SLOWEST TO LEVEL IN! lol
leveling in this game is soooo slow and counterproductive compared to like ever other game in existance lol whats sad is im only slightly exaggerating.

plus once we get party SP fixes and quests to SP off of, dont you think people will be hitting fatigue alot sooner and more often? basicly, THIS game doesnt even need fatigue to slow people down from getting to the cap too fast even with the party SP fix. PLUUUS this game encourages multi class leveling and they consider crafts as viable classes, so lets just slowly stop people from leveling

Quote:
Now what does this mean? starting from level 40 (i think) its over 80k tnr. That means in order to rank up i would need to 1) get 1 rank a week. 2) blow through it and get less sp a week (which we all do) 3) level something esle.


assuming you need or want to level something else, something you shouldnt be forced to do in the first place. i was happy with my one and only single spec pally on wow.

Edited, Jan 27th 2011 5:43pm by pixelpop

Edited, Jan 27th 2011 5:44pm by pixelpop

Edited, Jan 27th 2011 5:44pm by pixelpop
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#35 Jan 27 2011 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think that anyone is actually pro-fatigue; most people just seem ambivalent, and mention how it's never really bothered them.

I also don't think that anyone agrees, philosophically, with the idea of fatigue (or if anyone does, they are certainly in the smallest minority), and that most everyone believes that, if you pay for a game and if you (eventually) continue to pay monthly to access it, you should be allowed to put as many hours on your Conjurer/Pugilist/Fisher/etc. as you please. It's almost like having a TV that shuts itself off if it thinks you watch too much of it.

There's no argument from a game-balance perspective; fatigue is really just a matter of injecting a simple and direct barrier to the leveling process. It is neither a test of "skill" (like Maat fights) nor a "half-test/half-contrivance" to slow you down (like limit break quests), but simply a mechanic to stop you from leveling "too fast/much."

The most convincing theory I have heard for its existence states that is was made to comply with some sort of Chinese MMO regulation. I think this makes the most sense because, if it were a matter of someone reaching the cap too quickly, SE could have just made it harder to level by lengthening battles, reducing SP gains, raising SP requirements, and many other ways. (A counter to this position could be reached, however, by playing the "lazy" or the "last minute" card -- that is also a valid, explanation, I think.)
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#36 Jan 27 2011 at 4:49 PM Rating: Default
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i'd rather have fatigue then lose exp from dying
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#37 Jan 27 2011 at 4:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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i'd rather have fatigue then lose exp from dying


id rather not have either . lucky for me ill probly get my wish in this game soon enough.
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#38 Jan 27 2011 at 4:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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As someone who so far has only really seen fatigue once, for my sentinel. I can honestly say I really don't see the point for it.

If people are finding things to do in this game to the point where they are actually being effected by fatigue, I say take it out. At that point it is directly interfering with their enjoyment. And if they can enjoy the game that much then kudos to them.

This game already has such a horrible rate of progression both with rapidly increasing rank requirements and bizarrely decreasing returns the higher you go that fatigue at this point is just adding insult to injury.
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#39 Jan 27 2011 at 7:05 PM Rating: Good
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I'd love to see fatigue gone...I don't hit fatigue that much now, since my Main Class is done and I only grind "reasonable" on my crafting classes, but still everytime I hit fatigue...it's like "k...have to do something else now", cause me personally, I hate getting SP while fatigued, cause all the time I only think about the SP im losing instead...
#40 Jan 27 2011 at 8:10 PM Rating: Good
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I'd say that 99.999% of people fall into one of three categories. Either:

- Fatigue doesn't affect them
- Fatigue affects them slightly, so they deal with it. Mostly Casual players
- Fatigue affects them drastically, and they think it should be removed. Almost all hardcore.

fixed that for you Mik.

I agree that It needs to be removed as it does nothing but hurt people who actually play more than casual.
I like the idea of a WoW type SP bonus for playing less but not a system intended to hurt you for playing.
This sounds to me like a "Mommy friendly" MMO system so kids dont play 7 hours a day.

The gear deappreciation system is a joke as well. Sounds like they tried to follow WoW but didnt realize it only works when its not a pain in the **** to repair. If they decide to keep it then it needs to be alot less taxing on your gear. I say remove it.
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#41 Jan 27 2011 at 8:11 PM Rating: Good
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To the OP, Yes, yes i would.
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#42 Jan 27 2011 at 8:55 PM Rating: Good
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its not a big deal for most people, but at this point, why keep it in there? not only has it pretty much only given negative feedback and press (they had a field day with it) but if your going to blow through to 50, you can still do it pretty **** fast as it is, kind of pointless now IMO.
#43 Jan 27 2011 at 9:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I'd say that 99.999% of people fall into one of three categories. Either:

- Fatigue doesn't affect them
- Fatigue affects them, but they deal with it.
- Fatigue affects them, and they think it should be removed.

The amount of people who are affected by fatigue AND like it are a very very tiny minority. Most of the people who actually LIKE the fatigue system aren't affected by it and out of everyone else, they either want it removed or they don't feel too strongly.

I see the intended benefit behind it, but it's almost like having your parents put vegetables on your plate as a kid; you really don't like them so you either suffer through it or you just ignore them, but either way you don't like being told "They're good for you! You'll thank me later!"


[quote=dnored]

Personally, I don't care whether they get rid of fatigue or not even though I was constantly under the effect of "bonus" sp on my way to R50. Each week (it's Friday night for me), I got into yellow sp the same day or the very next day. But if it makes other people happy, then sure remove it, it's fine by me.

I just don't get why people get so worked up about it. I honestly don't care how fast I rank up. I grind because I have fun doing it with people (I don't solo except to do leves), so I don't care how long it takes me to get the next rank/level, be it a day or a week. If it is not fun, i wouldn't do it even if they give me 2x sp. There is nothing to achieve by playing mmo besides maybe making friendship if you are lucky. Besides, there is not much to see or do at the end game right now, so why the rush?

With that said, it seems to me many posters in this thread don't really know how fatigue/surplus currently works. They have really toned it down since the beta. So much so that it's really not doing it's intended purpose. In fact, they achieved what the fatigue system was supposed to do (i.e. slow down people's progression) by changing the SP system.

For the combat classes, your sp turns yellow and reaches the first level of surplus after about 80k or 100k sp. At this stage, your sp gain is reduced by 10%. After another 80k or 100k sp, your surplus ranks up, but the penalty is still 10%. When your surplus ranks up again (now level 3), the penalty becomes 20%. As far as I can see, the max penalty right now is 20%. So instead of say, 8 hours to rank up, it now takes 10 hours. For the gathering classes, there is a different kind of fatigue, and it is much more limiting from what Ive heard from LS mates. I think you stopped getting resources after a set number of attempts (200?). There is likely a different reason behind it (i.e. economy), but I don't know enough about it to make any comments since I haven't leveled any gathering classes.



Edited, Jan 27th 2011 10:35pm by tyrionfigaro

Edited, Jan 27th 2011 10:40pm by tyrionfigaro
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#44 Jan 27 2011 at 9:43 PM Rating: Good
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I think it's rather easy for people to become complacent about the things that don't affect them. And to be honest, it's hard to hit fatigue when you play for 6 hours a month like me. Still, I'd be all for removing fatigue if for no other reason than that it serves no discernible purpose other than to hamper the progress of the people who still enjoy the game enough to put in the amount of effort it takes just to reach it.



Edited, Jan 27th 2011 10:48pm by SickleSageKiroh
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#45 Jan 27 2011 at 10:00 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

I see the intended benefit behind it, but it's almost like having your parents put vegetables on your plate as a kid; you really don't like them so you either suffer through it or you just ignore them, but either way you don't like being told "They're good for you! You'll thank me later!"


On a side note regarding vegetable. The problem with parents is that they assume that children are dumb and can't understand basic science. Telling someone that something is "good for them" means absolute **** 20 minutes later. If children were taught nutritional science at a young age instead of that bunk "food pyramid" propaganda, they'd be more apt to eat their vegetables. For example, a lot of people don't like fish or avocados. Telling them it's "good" pales in comparison to an explanation of good cholesterol and how it destroys the bad, giving you a fighting chance against carotid arteries. Also, take the fat from beef/chicken/pork and let it sit at room temperature until it turns into a solid white mass; then tell them that's what it becomes inside your body. Sometimes I think our government wants us to die of disease and malnutrition.

At risk of being called a tinfoil hat, I find it hard to come to any other conclusion.
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#46 Jan 27 2011 at 10:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration wrote:
Telling them it's "good" pales in comparison to an explanation of good cholesterol and how it destroys the bad, giving you a fighting chance against carotid arteries.


wut?
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#47 Jan 27 2011 at 11:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes, Remove the fatigue and repair system. I hate them both with a passion.
#48 Jan 28 2011 at 1:38 AM Rating: Good
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pixelpop wrote:
Quote:
I like the idea of fatigue. People are in such a rush to hit 50 and then realize that there isn't any end game and they complain even more.


this is what gets to me, yes there are lots of people who are in a rush to hit the level cap.... BUT THIS GAME IS THE SLOWEST TO LEVEL IN! lol
leveling in this game is soooo slow and counterproductive compared to like ever other game in existance lol whats sad is im only slightly exaggerating.

plus once we get party SP fixes and quests to SP off of, dont you think people will be hitting fatigue alot sooner and more often? basicly, THIS game doesnt even need fatigue to slow people down from getting to the cap too fast even with the party SP fix. PLUUUS this game encourages multi class leveling and they consider crafts as viable classes, so lets just slowly stop people from leveling

Quote:
Now what does this mean? starting from level 40 (i think) its over 80k tnr. That means in order to rank up i would need to 1) get 1 rank a week. 2) blow through it and get less sp a week (which we all do) 3) level something esle.


assuming you need or want to level something else, something you shouldnt be forced to do in the first place. i was happy with my one and only single spec pally on wow.

Edited, Jan 27th 2011 5:43pm by pixelpop

Edited, Jan 27th 2011 5:44pm by pixelpop

Edited, Jan 27th 2011 5:44pm by pixelpop


yup that was the point i was trying to make if you read the whole post.
I sometimes do not want 3 jobs on rank 30 when i can have 1 on 50.
#49 Jan 28 2011 at 9:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

I see the intended benefit behind it, but it's almost like having your parents put vegetables on your plate as a kid; you really don't like them so you either suffer through it or you just ignore them, but either way you don't like being told "They're good for you! You'll thank me later!"


On a side note regarding vegetable. The problem with parents is that they assume that children are dumb and can't understand basic science. Telling someone that something is "good for them" means absolute sh*t 20 minutes later. If children were taught nutritional science at a young age instead of that bunk "food pyramid" propaganda, they'd be more apt to eat their vegetables. For example, a lot of people don't like fish or avocados. Telling them it's "good" pales in comparison to an explanation of good cholesterol and how it destroys the bad, giving you a fighting chance against carotid arteries. Also, take the fat from beef/chicken/pork and let it sit at room temperature until it turns into a solid white mass; then tell them that's what it becomes inside your body. Sometimes I think our government wants us to die of disease and malnutrition.

At risk of being called a tinfoil hat, I find it hard to come to any other conclusion.


I was pretty sure someone would pick apart that bit of my analogy and explain why/how vegetables actually -are- good for you. I'm surprised it took so many posts before it happened.

But back to my point: There's no -actual- direct benefit to people who are affected by fatigue. The only "indirect benefit" is when people say "Well at least fatigue is better than [other system that could have been done instead]" and I don't really believe that "It could be worse" is a good reason to include a feature.

Might as well say that it's a good thing your game crashes when you alt-tab because "At least it's better than your computer restarting when you alt-tab". If it affects you, it doesn't benefit you in any way to compensate for the penalty.
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#50 Jan 28 2011 at 9:22 AM Rating: Good
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F3rth wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
Telling them it's "good" pales in comparison to an explanation of good cholesterol and how it destroys the bad, giving you a fighting chance against carotid arteries.


wut?


What Are the Risk Factors for Carotid Artery Disease?

The risk factors for carotid artery disease are similar to those for other types of heart disease. They include:

* age
* smoking
* hypertension (high blood pressure) -- the most important treatable risk factor for stroke
* abnormal lipids or high cholesterol
* diet high in saturated fats

* insulin resistance
* diabetes
* obesity
* sedentary lifestyle
* family history of atherosclerosis, either coronary artery disease or carotid artery disease
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#51 Jan 28 2011 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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That's all well and good, but your post doesn't say fighting carotid artery disease, your post says fighting carotid arteries.

Can't fight carotid arteries, that's your neck vein. Everyone's got one.
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