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Item Searching and Stacking (01/28/2011)Follow

#52 Jan 28 2011 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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So will we still need multiple wards?
#53 Jan 28 2011 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Looking good. :)
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#54 Jan 28 2011 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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reasons why wards are better than an AH:

-Ability to sell partial stacks instead of full stacks only or singles
-More sell slots than typical AH
-Ability to attract customers to "impulse" buys in addition to whatever they were seeking (I did this with low-priced green weathered spectacles selling beside my low level mage weapons)
-ability to seek for repairs or ask for payment in items (how will payment in items show up on search, anyway?)

They DO need to become more stable, for sure, and yes I realize an AH is faster than the wards but I think it is worth noting the wards do have some advantages over an AH as well.
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#55 Jan 28 2011 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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My opinion:

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
-Ability to sell partial stacks instead of full stacks only or singles


This is an advantage of FFXIV's MW over FFXI's AH, but other game's AHes will let you list partial stacks.

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
-More sell slots than typical AH


This is also an advantage (albeit a very slight one; 10 vs 7) of FFXIV's MW vs FFXI's AH. Most other AH systems allow you to list more than 10 items, excluding many F2P ones (e.g. F2P DDO only allows you to list one item at a time)

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
-Ability to attract customers to "impulse" buys in addition to whatever they were seeking (I did this with low-priced green weathered spectacles selling beside my low level mage weapons)


Agreed, but I think buyers should have the option to just buy what they want and move on if that's what they would prefer. For the people who want to shop around and impulse buy, then this should be an -option-, I believe.

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
-ability to seek for repairs or ask for payment in items (how will payment in items show up on search, anyway?)


Since FFXIV is one of the few games that has player based repairs as the primary repair system, I think that even an AH should include this feature, if introduced.

FFXIV's Market Wards -do- include -some- improvements over FFXI's AH, but other games do offer far better systems in their AH systems.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I'm liking the new additions and features, but in the end, they're just adding more features that make Market Wards more like an AH anyway.

Take away "You have to walk to a retainer" and replace it with "buy item from the search UI" and bam: we have an Auction House. We've gone from having to wander aimlessly through a sea of NPCs who may or may not be selling what you want, and who knows if the price is worth it or not to a system where we can efficiently and quickly find items, find how many are for sale, and find what they're worth. The only thing missing is the ease of purchase and ease of listing goods.

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 4:39pm by Mikhalia
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#56 Jan 28 2011 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Take away "You have to walk to a retainer" and replace it with "buy item from the search UI" and bam: we have an Auction House.


I'm so glad we voted AH as the #2 priority for SE in the poll when the Marketplace is one adjustment away from becoming just as good if not better than the XI AH as-is.

Excellent work all around, hopefully they'll listen to us even more in the future.

(Time to get rated down by the people who voted for AH).
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#57 Jan 28 2011 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

Take away "You have to walk to a retainer" and replace it with "buy item from the search UI" and bam: we have an Auction House. We've gone from having to wander aimlessly through a sea of NPCs who may or may not be selling what you want, and who knows if the price is worth it or not to a system where we can efficiently and quickly find items, find how many are for sale, and find what they're worth. The only thing missing is the ease of purchase and ease of listing goods.


Gonna go ahead and quote myself since it was lost in the sea of the last page's responses, if you dont mind lol.

Domino7337 wrote:
Best of both worlds, SE needs to implement a feature so that while in the search screen, we can select an item and make our retainer go buy it (the retainer would need to have sufficient funds on him/her). Immediately afterward, you can go to your retainer and pick the item up. This would save the trouble for people who do not like running into the wards, then finding items, but still provide the whole ward experience for those who like it and enjoy the idea of a ward as opposed to AH.


I think that everyone see's how this could be as good as, if not better than an AH. I personally used to be a major proponent of an Auction House, but now, i think that the wards could be perfectly fine. Going to the Search page would be similar to actually going to the auction house. Scrolling through it would be like looking for the items you want. Telling your retainer to pick it up for you would be like actually buying it, then picking it up off of your retainer would be like picking up your item out of the mailbox.

Just make it so that the purchased items go directly into your retainers inventory (and not bazaar) would allow you to purchase a lot of items at once, and then pick them all up at once. If you still want to browse the wards, no worries, just go and buy the item yourself (or do this if your retainer has no gil on it). Imo, a feature akin to this could be exactly what we need.
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#58 Jan 28 2011 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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Domino7337 wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

Take away "You have to walk to a retainer" and replace it with "buy item from the search UI" and bam: we have an Auction House. We've gone from having to wander aimlessly through a sea of NPCs who may or may not be selling what you want, and who knows if the price is worth it or not to a system where we can efficiently and quickly find items, find how many are for sale, and find what they're worth. The only thing missing is the ease of purchase and ease of listing goods.


Gonna go ahead and quote myself since it was lost in the sea of the last page's responses, if you dont mind lol.

Domino7337 wrote:
Best of both worlds, SE needs to implement a feature so that while in the search screen, we can select an item and make our retainer go buy it (the retainer would need to have sufficient funds on him/her). Immediately afterward, you can go to your retainer and pick the item up. This would save the trouble for people who do not like running into the wards, then finding items, but still provide the whole ward experience for those who like it and enjoy the idea of a ward as opposed to AH.


I think that everyone see's how this could be as good as, if not better than an AH. I personally used to be a major proponent of an Auction House, but now, i think that the wards could be perfectly fine. Going to the Search page would be similar to actually going to the auction house. Scrolling through it would be like looking for the items you want. Telling your retainer to pick it up for you would be like actually buying it, then picking it up off of your retainer would be like picking up your item out of the mailbox.

Just make it so that the purchased items go directly into your retainers inventory (and not bazaar) would allow you to purchase a lot of items at once, and then pick them all up at once. If you still want to browse the wards, no worries, just go and buy the item yourself (or do this if your retainer has no gil on it). Imo, a feature akin to this could be exactly what we need.


I think that's a completely reasonable compromise.

Another feature that could be added is to have your Retainer look for goods at a given price and to list these "Want to buy" ads on the search options as well. Let's say I have three swords I just made and I want to list them. But wait; it looks like two people want to buy these swords. I can sell to them, get my money now, and only have to list one.

Or let's say I'm a clothcrafter and I have no clue what I want to do. Looks like four people want cotton robes. I'll make some cotton robes because I know that they'll sell immediately, rather than what is typical in most games where you make the item, list it, and then hope it sells.


Now if they could add a way to search for people who want to buy items, and allow you to sell the item to their retainer (you get the money now, they pay the money when they talk to their retainer next), THEN we'd have a system that would beat pretty much any AH I've personally seen.

EDIT: ****, I just thought of a glaring flaw with this system... You could "Want to buy" an item for 9999999999999 gil, have your friend make it and "sell" it to you, and then you never pick the item up. Huge potential for exploit. Okay, so have the item sold to the person, but you can't pick up your cash until they pick up their item and pay their cash, at which point, your retainer gets your cash.

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 5:13pm by Mikhalia
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#59 Jan 28 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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See, i'd like that as well. We already have the feature that allows you to seek items, they just need to implement this into the search function (same goes for repairs). This would also finally give some retainers some utilization. It would be an effective way to make them be a part of your economic system. Put a retainer up in the wards with a wanting to buy x item, whilst also selling the items you wish to sell. Use your other retainer to go purchase items you want from the search screen, or sell items to people who are currently looking to buy. This type of thing is exactly what the wards need in order to separate themselves and simultaneously be efficient and appealing.

Edit: to get over that flaw you pointed out, simply make the retainer who is buying the item have the funds on him necessary to purchase it. It would be the same concept as when you are purchasing items straight from the ward as opposed to seeking them out by posting your retainer up in the ward. The big part of this system would be that your retainer(s) would always be making the transactions, and thus, would require a sufficient amount of gil on them.

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 5:19pm by Domino7337
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#60 Jan 28 2011 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
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am I the only one who kind of hopes that in the future they add a feature to "star" diferent items all at once? So you can go to the counter, marks a buncha, and then go hunting for them.
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#61 Jan 28 2011 at 4:49 PM Rating: Good
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
am I the only one who kind of hopes that in the future they add a feature to "star" diferent items all at once? So you can go to the counter, marks a buncha, and then go hunting for them.

Nope, I want that too. Actually what I'd really like is the ability to add the star only to the retainers I want to visit, instead of all that carry a particular item.
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#62 Jan 28 2011 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Would be nice if dried prunes and ginger cookies, etc stacked to 99. 12/12 stacks mean no inventory for me...

at least my mushrooms and peppers will stack up... but right now have 2 stacks of prunes, and 3 stacks of heart chocolates on me


Lux, I think food is included, at least, that's what I interpret "foodstuffs" to mean. It wouldn't make sense that you could carry 99 oak logs but only 12 pieces of dried fruit.
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#63 Jan 28 2011 at 5:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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LordTinyDragon wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Would be nice if dried prunes and ginger cookies, etc stacked to 99. 12/12 stacks mean no inventory for me...

at least my mushrooms and peppers will stack up... but right now have 2 stacks of prunes, and 3 stacks of heart chocolates on me


Lux, I think food is included, at least, that's what I interpret "foodstuffs" to mean. It wouldn't make sense that you could carry 99 oak logs but only 12 pieces of dried fruit.


No, foodstuffs is a category, sadly:

http://ffxiv.yg.com/items?c=4.13

I agree it makes no sense that you can carry 100 logs and only 12 prunes in a stack but the above list does not leave me hopeful
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#64 Jan 28 2011 at 7:35 PM Rating: Decent
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SirEdmundBurke wrote:
Something I am worrying about is HQ items. HQ items showed up in the item search function before, but did not distinguish themselves as such. In the new search feature, it seems HQ items will show up there as well, but will be indistinguishable from the same NQ item. It will just be listed for a higher price. If only the lowest priced 20 items show up on the item search, then will HQ items be bumped out of the search list?

Also, main difference I see between FFXI AH and FFXIV AH/WARDS is this. FFXI AH had price history, not current price. What this created was hesitance to pay more when supply went down or demand went up, relatively. FFXIV will have current price, which will create a system where balance between supply and demand will be quickly met in real time. Actual prices will adjust to these factors much faster.

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 3:26pm by SirEdmundBurke

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 3:26pm by SirEdmundBurke




<---This. I have to always cross my fingers and hope that I stumble across a HQ item the way it is now, hope that they fix that in the patch. Either way, I'll still be a happy lala.

What I would like to see implemented is the highlighted gear's effect on my currently equipped gear. Upgraded in green, downgraded in red, etc...

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 8:38pm by Buttsniffa
#65 Jan 29 2011 at 3:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I really hope this is just a temporary fix to satisfy people while they work on an AH.

Really the retainer system while these fixes will make it easier to use (In fact it's practically an AH already) you still cant get away from the fact that an AH is always going to be a more efficient soloution.

Also one thing i rarely see brought up about the downsides of the retainer system is that it doesnt let you sell more than 1 class of item on a retainer without extra taxes. I do many different crafts (because of the mind-boggling surplus system wont let me focus on the one i enjoy) so i need to sell different types of items but only have 2 retainers. This is very frustrating. Again while this update seems to fix that, i'll still have to pay larger tax to sell.

The lack of a price history is annoying as well, i mean who doesnt use YG or something to check prices anyway?

Seems to me like SE is just persisting with this in order to charge $1 for an extra retainer once the game goes pay to play.

Edited, Jan 29th 2011 4:31am by Eskeran
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#66 Jan 29 2011 at 3:51 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I agree it makes no sense that you can carry 100 logs and only 12 prunes in a stack but the above list does not leave me hopeful


Much the same gripe we had in FFXI...I can trek around with 70 Noble's Beds on my back, but can't stack Yag Drinks? Seriously?

We all understand it's a Fantasy world...but some things defy logic.
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#67 Jan 29 2011 at 4:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
you still cant get away from the fact that an AH is always going to be a more efficient soloution.


Please, do tell us what this magical AH can do that the Marketplace can not?
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#68 Jan 29 2011 at 4:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Well for one once you have walked to the AH you dont need to change ward and then walk to a retainer to buy your item. Srsly people who are defending this system stop white knighting for SE.
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#69 Jan 29 2011 at 4:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Well for one once you have walked to the AH you dont need to change ward and then walk to a retainer to buy your item.


Now please do tell us your reasoning as to how come this function can not be implemented into the Marketplace search?
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#70 Jan 29 2011 at 5:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Because if they eliminate the need to walk to and interact with the retainer to buy your item, or change ward, then it is an AH.


AH: walk to AH area and buy item from the search function there.

If they impliment no interaction with the retainer or having to change wards then the retainer becomes the same thing.

Example: Walk to Ward area and buy item from the search function there.

So now we have a ward system where you can see prices and can purchase from the search function without having to walk to the retainer or a seperate ward. I'm fine with that as it is identical as an AH in all but name.

That would leave the retainer as your main way of selling your goods, and your item storage, and it would act like an AH/Mog house combo. Why not just have an AH and a Mog House? At least with the mog house you could do stuff like gardening or decorate it. They just did this to be "different" when it's like trying to make a ball rounder and ending up with a square.

I would actually love it if they just left the retainer system and introduced an AH so we could have both. Then after a few months see how popular the retainers are.

Edited, Jan 29th 2011 6:23am by Eskeran
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#71 Jan 29 2011 at 5:25 AM Rating: Decent
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You don't make any sense.

Quote:
I really hope this is just a temporary fix to satisfy people while they work on an AH.


This change is them working on an AH. As in turning the Marketplace into one. This is not "a temporary fix", this is one of the many partial changes that make this an AH-like system. It isn't coming all at once as people seem to think, it is coming at a steady pace as the features are finished. It is also more efficient to do it this way because the search system among other things are already in place, they just need to be tweaked further.

It is not white knighting to point out that when Marketplace is turned into an AH there is no need for a normal XI AH.

Not long ago people criticised SE for "being stubborn with developing the Marketplace instead of just giving us an AH". Now you can see why.
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#72 Jan 29 2011 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Eskeran wrote:


I would actually love it if they just left the retainer system and introduced an AH so we could have both. Then after a few months see how popular the retainers are.

Edited, Jan 29th 2011 6:23am by Eskeran


This makes no sense because logically when people get the thing they're crying themselves to sleep at night for it will be more popular. These systems are basically one in the same. At present time the only thing an AH would do over this is buying from search and having the money delivered to the seller.

Which is something that can be implemented into market/retainers when they implement the delivery system. So why make a new system when they can just update the current one? We all know when people demand an AH they're not talking about placing bids and hope you win type of AH.
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#73 Jan 29 2011 at 8:46 AM Rating: Default
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A close examination of the image of this new search function reveals a potential issue.

The search feature will display the 20 *lowest* asking prices. When you look at the retainer names in the search results, you'll find there are a couple of people listed twice. I'm assuming this is because they have more than one stack of the item being sold.

So someone who wants to exploit this dynamic to prevent other sellers items displaying in the search results can do the following: Put up two retainers, each holding 10 stacks of the item they're intending to control. The search result will then display only a single player's results; blocking buyers from conveniently discovering all the other options as the search function is intended to provide.

I hope they change the filter to display the 50 lowest asking prices, stipulating that an account's retainers' name can only be listed once within the search results.

#74 Jan 29 2011 at 10:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Although I would still rather just buy the item from the menu for the sake of convenience, this update will change my opinion of the Market Wards to actually being superior to the Auction House system of FFXI.

While I'm not going to get into a big rant about my numerous irritations with the AH of FFXI, there's obviously something suspect with a system that people decide to ignore in favor of standing in Rolanberry Fields waiting for someone to buy their expensive McGuffin.

Edited, Jan 29th 2011 11:16am by WarkupoZ
#75 Jan 29 2011 at 10:31 AM Rating: Decent
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JhanaVish wrote:
A close examination of the image of this new search function reveals a potential issue.

The search feature will display the 20 *lowest* asking prices. When you look at the retainer names in the search results, you'll find there are a couple of people listed twice. I'm assuming this is because they have more than one stack of the item being sold.

So someone who wants to exploit this dynamic to prevent other sellers items displaying in the search results can do the following: Put up two retainers, each holding 10 stacks of the item they're intending to control. The search result will then display only a single player's results; blocking buyers from conveniently discovering all the other options as the search function is intended to provide.

I hope they change the filter to display the 50 lowest asking prices, stipulating that an account's retainers' name can only be listed once within the search results.



I don't see how this is really a problem. The buyer is usually going to want the least expensive item up for sale, and the search function lists those first. If the guy with 20 stacks of the item is the cheapest price, it makes sense for him to be on the list over anyone else. The buyer isn't really missing out on any other options because they weren't options he was going to consider to begin with.

If a seller wants to move his item more quickly then he should lower his price to combat the influx of the item he's trying to sell.


Edited, Jan 29th 2011 11:34am by WarkupoZ
#76 Jan 29 2011 at 11:20 AM Rating: Default
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WarkupoZ wrote:


I don't see how this is really a problem. The buyer is usually going to want the least expensive item up for sale, and the search function lists those first. If the guy with 20 stacks of the item is the cheapest price, it makes sense for him to be on the list over anyone else. The buyer isn't really missing out on any other options because they weren't options he was going to consider to begin with.

If a seller wants to move his item more quickly then he should lower his price to combat the influx of the item he's trying to sell.



Not all buyer's want the least expensive item. Many are interested in giving business to a regular supplier, even though it costs slightly more. Many people will prefer to avoid those who undersell by 1%, etc.

Regardless, it might be helpful to gain clarity on the intention of the search results window. Does SE intend for players to find the 20 *retainers* selling the searched item at the lowest price, or does SE intend us to find the 20 *stacks* of lowest priced items.

Personally, I find more value and utility in knowing the 20 unique *retainers*
#77 Jan 29 2011 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Ah! But crafters do not want a free market economy.
They believe they have some sort of "natural right"
to make good profit with what they are selling, so
listing only the lowest-priced items is agains their
wishes.

At the moment, the game is tremendously over-saturated
with crafters who expect that the effort they put into
leveling now will pay off sometime later.

Edited, Jan 29th 2011 12:28pm by Rinsui
#78 Jan 29 2011 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
At the moment, the game is tremendously over-saturated
with crafters who expect that the effort they put into
leveling now will pay off sometime later.


And this is wrong...how?

What's the point of being a crafter if no one will buy the items you're making for what it costs to make them (in both materials, crystals and TIME)?
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#79 Jan 29 2011 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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JhanaVish wrote:
WarkupoZ wrote:


I don't see how this is really a problem. The buyer is usually going to want the least expensive item up for sale, and the search function lists those first. If the guy with 20 stacks of the item is the cheapest price, it makes sense for him to be on the list over anyone else. The buyer isn't really missing out on any other options because they weren't options he was going to consider to begin with.

If a seller wants to move his item more quickly then he should lower his price to combat the influx of the item he's trying to sell.



Not all buyer's want the least expensive item. Many are interested in giving business to a regular supplier, even though it costs slightly more. Many people will prefer to avoid those who undersell by 1%, etc.

Regardless, it might be helpful to gain clarity on the intention of the search results window. Does SE intend for players to find the 20 *retainers* selling the searched item at the lowest price, or does SE intend us to find the 20 *stacks* of lowest priced items.

Personally, I find more value and utility in knowing the 20 unique *retainers*


I'd say 'many' is a very generous estimate of the people who prefer to pay more for an item than is necessary. No game or life experience has shown me that people would rather pay extra for an item than they had too, and I don't see FFXIV being the exception.

If you are referring to people who 'undercut' I want to point out that deflation of an item is a natural and necessary process of an economy. If there is such a surplus of an item that a lone person can fill the search results with that item than people SHOULD be competing with each other to lower the price of that item. It would be ridiculous to expect people to pay, say, a thousand gil for an item when there is over 2,000 of that item for sale. It's ridiculous to list people who are selling that item for a thousand gil when someone is selling it for far less.

If someone has a 'preferred' buyer, for whatever reason, I have to imagine that they would know who that is on some personal level, and not require a search function to 'discover' them.

Finally, there's no reason to be aware of who normally sells the item. That's entirely what a search function means to alleviate. Rather than trying to remember who usually sells moko grass, I just do a search for 'moko grass' and the game finds that person for me.


Edited, Jan 29th 2011 1:51pm by WarkupoZ
#80 Jan 29 2011 at 2:07 PM Rating: Default
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Eskeran wrote:

That would leave the retainer as your main way of selling your goods, and your item storage, and it would act like an AH/Mog house combo. Why not just have an AH and a Mog House? At least with the mog house you could do stuff like gardening or decorate it. They just did this to be "different" when it's like trying to make a ball rounder and ending up with a square.


I still believe that they're avoiding AH not because they want to create something different for the sake of being different. Please consider the below scenario :-
- You check on AH for marmot pelt
- All marmot pelts are bought by Gilseller A at 300gil
- Whenever you bid on 300 eventhough 20 selling, you will never get them.
- You bid 400, and you got it from Gilseller B.
- Someone wish to sell his stuff faster, so he undercuts and sells at 300, it's automatically bought by Gilseller A.
- End of each day, transfer items from Gilseller A to B.

Some elaboration what's making above possible.
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=1295865687191653558&page=1&howmany=50#msg1295895294162428666

It is hard to script a bot to 'move' about accurately to a precise location and make purchase. It's easy to script a bot to keep 'talking' to AH and input a set of key strokes and keep bidding 300 on the said item.

WarkupoZ wrote:
JhanaVish wrote:
WarkupoZ wrote:


I don't see how this is really a problem. The buyer is usually going to want the least expensive item up for sale, and the search function lists those first. If the guy with 20 stacks of the item is the cheapest price, it makes sense for him to be on the list over anyone else. The buyer isn't really missing out on any other options because they weren't options he was going to consider to begin with.

If a seller wants to move his item more quickly then he should lower his price to combat the influx of the item he's trying to sell.



Not all buyer's want the least expensive item. Many are interested in giving business to a regular supplier, even though it costs slightly more. Many people will prefer to avoid those who undersell by 1%, etc.

Regardless, it might be helpful to gain clarity on the intention of the search results window. Does SE intend for players to find the 20 *retainers* selling the searched item at the lowest price, or does SE intend us to find the 20 *stacks* of lowest priced items.

Personally, I find more value and utility in knowing the 20 unique *retainers*


I'd say 'many' is a very generous estimate of the people who prefer to pay more for an item than is necessary. No game or life experience has shown me that people would rather pay extra for an item than they had too, and I don't see FFXIV being the exception.

If you are referring to people who 'undercut' I want to point out that deflation of an item is a natural and necessary process of an economy. If there is such a surplus of an item that a lone person can fill the search results with that item than people SHOULD be competing with each other to lower the price of that item. It would be ridiculous to expect people to pay, say, a thousand gil for an item when there is over 2,000 of that item for sale. It's ridiculous to list people who are selling that item for a thousand gil when someone is selling it for far less.

If someone has a 'preferred' buyer, for whatever reason, I have to imagine that they would know who that is on some personal level, and not require a search function to 'discover' them.

Finally, there's no reason to be aware of who normally sells the item. That's entirely what a search function means to alleviate. Rather than trying to remember who usually sells moko grass, I just do a search for 'moko grass' and the game finds that person for me.


Edited, Jan 29th 2011 1:51pm by WarkupoZ


It's really not a problem until someone abuse this system and deliberately prevent others from being listed ? I think they should group how many stacks they're selling, and at the same time, display all other sellers as well, it will not do any harm doing this, but granting choice for the buyers.
#81 Jan 29 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
5 posts
I agree I don't see why people are so obsessed with undercutting I think what really hurts the economy is the fact that weapon and armor in this and in FFXI are not consumable. You're not really "buying" gear in this game if you can turn around and sell it back in the market for exactly what you paid for it. It's more like you are renting your gear out for a small time for little or no cost. This kind of economy requires a steady influx of new players to keep up with the constant increases in supply for certain items and the subsequent drops in demand as people get to higher levels. Since there isn't any real money sink (except for foods and a few other consumables) since all the materials are gathered from mobs or harvested and not payed for, then ultimately there will be a lot of inflation. This is what really causes undercutting: too many people trying to sell something that nobody wants to buy.
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#82 Jan 29 2011 at 3:27 PM Rating: Decent
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322 posts
Might as well add an auction house now

Whats the point
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#83 Jan 29 2011 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
35 posts
katakuri wrote:
This is what really causes undercutting: too many people trying to sell something that nobody wants to buy.


Yes, but let's expand on this just a little bit. If 'stuff' can be created and gathered faster than it can be sold, then the price will go down, i.e. what so many of you call undercutting. On the flipside, if 'stuff' can be sold faster than it is created or gathered, you guessed it, the price will go up. Balance must be met by these methods, or what you end up with is either a stagnant economy, or a gluttonous one where people hoard more than they need.
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#84 Jan 29 2011 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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3,530 posts
katakuri wrote:
You're not really "buying" gear in this game if you can turn around and sell it back in the market for exactly what you paid for it. It's more like you are renting your gear out for a small time for little or no cost.


So since Craigslist, I guess I no longer "buy" anything... except food. XD

Oh, and what about buying something and selling it for more? Is that "renting something for a negative amount of money," then? o_O

I do, however, see some of your concerns with rapid deflation of the economy, and I can't wait for the days when any and all "skill-up items" are permanently out-of-stock from being sold to NPCs, worthless if they're not HQ, and a complete loss compared to the materials they're made of.
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#85 Jan 29 2011 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
5 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
katakuri wrote:
You're not really "buying" gear in this game if you can turn around and sell it back in the market for exactly what you paid for it. It's more like you are renting your gear out for a small time for little or no cost.


So since Craigslist, I guess I no longer "buy" anything... except food. XD

Oh, and what about buying something and selling it for more? Is that "renting something for a negative amount of money," then? o_O

I do, however, see some of your concerns with rapid deflation of the economy, and I can't wait for the days when any and all "skill-up items" are permanently out-of-stock from being sold to NPCs, worthless if they're not HQ, and a complete loss compared to the materials they're made of.


Well when you buy and then resell something on craigslist it usually loses its value because its been used. This isn't the case with digital items because there isn't any "wear and tear" involved or any stigmas about buying something "used" compared to "new".
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#86 Jan 29 2011 at 5:24 PM Rating: Default
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93 posts
The market wards will never work no matter what they do SE's crappy servers can't sustain the load of all the retainers trying to load now with low populations imagine large populations heck I would foresee wards crashing left and right like besiged does in FF11 well.. not anymore since its not as popular as it used to be with abyssea but before it was slow to load on grid sometimes you would die from getting hit from nowhere and then crash
#87 Jan 29 2011 at 5:30 PM Rating: Default
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93 posts
Also to people who say gilsellers or elite will take control of a AH if added well its NOT gonna happen on FF14 NEVER! the main reason is because money is worthless in FF14 (unlike FF11) because you can obtain it so easily be it leves getting high value items through leves or quests it just has no value unlike FF11 where gil was VERY HARD to come by rarely any quests gave any and if it did it was not very much
#88 Jan 29 2011 at 5:34 PM Rating: Default
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93 posts
Also thanks to actual crafting classes people are flooding the game with so much gear that supply is by a large majority beating demand plus there is no reason to craft low level gear since you can wear gear at any level and getting to 20 is a joke you can do it in a few hours so why bother? in my honest opinion adding a AH will help in a large part with server stability sorry for the repeated posts

Edited, Jan 29th 2011 6:35pm by Rankin657
#89 Jan 30 2011 at 9:47 AM Rating: Good
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52 posts
Genkineko wrote:
It's really not a problem until someone abuse this system and deliberately prevent others from being listed ? I think they should group how many stacks they're selling, and at the same time, display all other sellers as well, it will not do any harm doing this, but granting choice for the buyers.


It's not a problem because the only way to "abuse" the system is to be the person selling the item for the least amount of gil. Which is who a buyer wants to buy from anyway.

If a bunch of people want to "abuse" the system by putting up their items for 1 gil so nobody else appears on the list I promise you that such "abuse" will last a very short period of time.

Edited, Jan 30th 2011 10:54am by WarkupoZ
#90 Feb 01 2011 at 5:35 AM Rating: Good
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952 posts
The ability to search all the wards and the ability to see the prices and amount being sold? This is all I ever wanted from the start, that is, the ability to find what I'm looking for and getting on with doing whatever else I was doing.

The only other thing an auction house would offer now is price history. I could care less about price history. I honestly don't think we even need an auction house anymore.

Now if they could fix the stability of the wards I'll be one happy camper with this part of the game.
#91 Feb 01 2011 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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473 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
When people were strongly against an FFXI-style AH, one of the biggest (and loudest) objections came in the form of its promotion of undercutting, in its promotion of deflation... now SE gives you a system that won't even show any prices after the twenty lowest... and everyone is super happy.


I don't understand the hatred towards undercutting. As long as you check prices before mass producing something, you can easily avoid non-profitable items. Undercutting is the natural way for goods to reach their "actual value".

The way the game works goods are going to be over-produced due to people ranking up on them. Supply will almost always be higher than demand, so of course prices will be low. If you don't want to deal with undercutting then sell your goods to NPC, it's not like materials are hard to come by.



i gotta ask though because I am with you on the fact that undercutting things hurts the day to day casual gamer. But we have to consider the drop rates of everything in this game, aside from orbs from leve's and NM drops. The regular roaming mob and gathering items drops like water in a stream. Its the general over availability of raw mats that will cause the most undercutting. This game just needs gil sinks to make people value gil more than they do now. I hardly spend gil as things are now and now that my loot will stack I can make millions just gathering and npc'ing, tack on leve's and doing low level repairs it works out great to make 400-500k a week right now.

Since I'll be dropping less items and having larger stacks I'll be rolling it in. Also gear is so cheap i have effectively nothing to save gil for anyways.
#92 Feb 01 2011 at 12:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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95 posts
WarkupoZ wrote:

It's not a problem because the only way to "abuse" the system is to be the person selling the item for the least amount of gil. Which is who a buyer wants to buy from anyway.

If a bunch of people want to "abuse" the system by putting up their items for 1 gil so nobody else appears on the list I promise you that such "abuse" will last a very short period of time.


That is true, but keep in mind, I don't have to set 'extreme low prices' (like 1gil) on my pricing to abuse this.
- You or maybe other sellers selling at 300gil - market price.
- I can sell 20x of the item at 299 gil and still remain on the top of the list. 1gil lower than what you're listing is good enough to dominate the list.

What I'm trying to say is that, if it has no negative sides on keeping all buyers informed of the entire market situation, why not do it ? Why impose limits to only 20 results, where it 'can' have a risk of being abused ? If they're doing this because of technical limitations ( server load on search ), then I can understand, or better yet, have it customizable, or simply a field to put in - return maximum xxx results.

Edited, Feb 1st 2011 2:02pm by Genkineko
#93 Feb 01 2011 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
Honestly, I think the search results should list all sellers, at all prices, for a given item. It should also show you the name of the seller so that you can choose to buy from a certain buyer if you like them, or if you want that specific buyer to get your money rather than a different one.
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#94 Feb 01 2011 at 3:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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52 posts
Genkineko wrote:

That is true, but keep in mind, I don't have to set 'extreme low prices' (like 1gil) on my pricing to abuse this.
- You or maybe other sellers selling at 300gil - market price.
- I can sell 20x of the item at 299 gil and still remain on the top of the list. 1gil lower than what you're listing is good enough to dominate the list.

What I'm trying to say is that, if it has no negative sides on keeping all buyers informed of the entire market situation, why not do it ? Why impose limits to only 20 results, where it 'can' have a risk of being abused ? If they're doing this because of technical limitations ( server load on search ), then I can understand, or better yet, have it customizable, or simply a field to put in - return maximum xxx results.

Edited, Feb 1st 2011 2:02pm by Genkineko


That's still just called deflation, and it's going to happen whether or not there are twenty viewable slots available or two-hundred. If there are seriously over twenty of the same item or stack of items being sold then that item *needs* to deflate, and 'Undercutting' is traditionally how it starts. Soon that 299 gil becomes 298, then 297, then someone gets impatient and it becomes 250, then 200, then 150, etc.

The item will then eventually become worthless, people will stop selling it in such high quantities, the market will stagnate for a bit, demand will eventually return, and someone will move into fill that demand. Then the cycle repeats itself.

The only significant system limitation I can see is that the menu might load slowly if it has to load every single instance of the item being sold across multiple wards, especially once this game starts achieving a higher population of players. Excluding that, or a way around it, I will concede that I don't see any negative reason to add more slots, I just really don't think it's exceptionally necessary either, and I certainly don't think it is an "oversight."

Undercutting and deflation are not "abuse". They are annoying, more so when it is happening to a niche you are involved in, but they are not abuse.


Edited, Feb 1st 2011 4:23pm by WarkupoZ
#95 Feb 03 2011 at 12:29 AM Rating: Decent
35 posts
SirEdmundBurke wrote:
Something I am worrying about is HQ items. HQ items showed up in the item search function before, but did not distinguish themselves as such. In the new search feature, it seems HQ items will show up there as well, but will be indistinguishable from the same NQ item. It will just be listed for a higher price. If only the lowest priced 20 items show up on the item search, then will HQ items be bumped out of the search list?

Also, main difference I see between FFXI AH and FFXIV AH/WARDS is this. FFXI AH had price history, not current price. What this created was hesitance to pay more when supply went down or demand went up, relatively. FFXIV will have current price, which will create a system where balance between supply and demand will be quickly met in real time. Actual prices will adjust to these factors much faster.


I was afraid this would happen...
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#96 Feb 03 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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WarkupoZ wrote:

That's still just called deflation, and it's going to happen whether or not there are twenty viewable slots available or two-hundred. If there are seriously over twenty of the same item or stack of items being sold then that item *needs* to deflate, and 'Undercutting' is traditionally how it starts. Soon that 299 gil becomes 298, then 297, then someone gets impatient and it becomes 250, then 200, then 150, etc.

The item will then eventually become worthless, people will stop selling it in such high quantities, the market will stagnate for a bit, demand will eventually return, and someone will move into fill that demand. Then the cycle repeats itself.

The only significant system limitation I can see is that the menu might load slowly if it has to load every single instance of the item being sold across multiple wards, especially once this game starts achieving a higher population of players. Excluding that, or a way around it, I will concede that I don't see any negative reason to add more slots, I just really don't think it's exceptionally necessary either, and I certainly don't think it is an "oversight."

Undercutting and deflation are not "abuse". They are annoying, more so when it is happening to a niche you are involved in, but they are not abuse.


Just to be clear, I undercut a lot, when I need to sell things quick ^^.

All I can say is, the scenario you have in mind differs to the one I'm thinking.
Under normal circumstances, the things you explained is exactly what's going to happen, and it's going to be alright, no problem at all. I understand all about those supply / demand rules, how price is going to drop to it's minimal value, and supply party will see it not profitable causing yadayadayada....

Maybe I'm thinking too much what RMT is capable of, and destroying the market is usually one of their side effects, and I was hoping players are given the choice to boycott these players / or sellers once they're identified to be involved in such activities. Instead of being 'forced' to buy from "Abcde fghij" selling cheapest goods.
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