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Are DoH true classes?Follow

#1 Jan 28 2011 at 5:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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In a couple of thread I've noticed a certain discrimination and quite a number of ZAM members present their opinion against DoH and DoL stating that these are not "true" classes.

Most people that are against these Disciples being considered classes are so because they see them as an oposing force to interesting and challenging main story mainly by preventing these from having boss battles, other reasons I see people basing their opinions are on one hand that these disciples cannot partake of "End-Game" activities and on another that they do not have enough abilities that entitle them to be a class.

Instead of just throwing mud at each other I'm gonna try and defend DoH based on the criteria presented by the other people.

In regards to main storyline my experience is restricted up to rank 36 but although i can see a clear decline on the ammount of fights that one would usually expect from these I still see that there are a number of quests which give you the oportunity to fight. In adition SE introduced the parley ability which allows DoH/L to go through the quests without the need to fight. If anything I would say that the DoW/M have the upper hand because they can both fight and parley.

In regards to "End-Game" activities, when mentioned everyone, and myself included, automatically think of dungeons and big boss battles because that is what we hare used to. Since this is the first game to implement crafting as a class then we have to assume that we will be able to expect different things in reagards to these classes"end-Game" activities.

I would like to remind everyone about a post by SE which I think was made before launch in which they mentioned the possibilities of compannies having their own ships.

Quote:
The first version update of 2011 will introduce what are known as "companies," a special type of linkshell with more group-oriented progression and goals.

Once estbalished, companies will be able to work towards acquiring their own communal assets, such as buildings that can serve as headquarters, or ships that can be used to access multiplayer content. The system will provide concrete benefits to players who align themselves with a company, as well as motivate already established companies to seek out new recruits. In essence, the focus will be on providing new, innovative content for all players to enjoy. The FINAL FANTASY XIV Lodestone will also offer a number of online services covering both companies and linkshells.


Original link.

I can't be 100% sure but there were also rumours that these ships could be crafted or improved by groups of DoH. This, because of it's dificulty would be probbaly something that only high rank DoH could take part in so my question now is, would a group effor between DoH with a clear objective not be considered as "End-Game" activity?

This way DoM/W have their "End-Game" activities and DoH/L could have theirs, this does not invalidate Weaver or Lancer from being classes, just different types.

The last point mentioned by other people is the ammount of abilities and although it's clear that DoW/M have a much greater number of these to choose from when you consider the numbers that you actually put to use the difference is not that great. In my point of view I consider a fight between a characters and a monster as the equivalent to the crafting minigame.

On the DoW side, even though we have a lot of people complaining that they only use a few abilities, button bashing, they can easily fill out and use the full 10 slots on the first row and if really needed fill out the other 20. From my experience, it's only really practical to use the first 10. Now in regards to DoH I dont think we get enough points to put a forth Godsend untill your either 30 or close to it but even if you only have 3 godsend that is still 7 options you have to choose from the minigame.

So if you are to look at things this way you have a DoW/M with 10 abilities and a DoH with 7, not that much of a difference when it comes to practical use.

As you might have noticed, in this post I focused mainly on DoH as oposed to DoL, that is because my experience in it is not as great as with DoH and to be honest I find it hard to support DoL under these same points as I think I'm able to do with DoH. I also hope I was able to put my idea foward in a constructive way and would ask any person replying to it to try and keep this thread on that same level.
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#2 Jan 28 2011 at 7:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yes, DoH and DoL are classes. They have gear and abilities, take just as much time to level as the battle jobs, have their own guilds and quests, and serve a strong role in the overall shape of the game... It's a completely different role as opposed to the battle jobs, but it's just as critical to the game and community, and all the class types work in tandem.

People saying they aren't real classes are usually just basing that off of their experience in other games, where they weren't full classes. That only applies in those other games though, in this game, SE has chosen to make them full classes, and that's really all there is to it.

Some people are a bit simple and don't understand other people who don't share their point of view, and as such tend to think that if you're not leveling a battle job, you're not a real class, and etc. That's nonsense, and kind of an insult to all the effort it takes to follow through leveling any class, battle or otherwise.

As far as the endgame stuff and main story missions, I don't think that stuff fits the role of DoL/DoH. Their role is still the same as it was in FFXI, to serve the economic side of the game. Again though, it seems SE wants things to work in tandem, so while the battle jobs will slay the endgame mobs, the craft jobs will keep the battle jobs geared, repaired, and make use of the drops they procure. They don't need to merge those two things, the balance works fine as it is.

And as a side note, I don't think missions and such should be made overly accessible. They become boring and pointless if any job can do them at just about any level. They should require a lot of effort, teamwork, and strategy, and should be increasingly difficult. The way the main quest is now, I got to the 2nd to last mission, helped someone do the last mission, and then just left mine unfinished because it's just a fetch quest cinema scene basically. No thrill in it at all. Could probably solo it, but meh. If that's the new style of missions I'm very disappointed, because in FFXI they were often very hard, and beating them was a lot of fun. I generally don't bother with battle job solo content, unless it leads up to something else. But that's a bit off topic. :P

Oh and about companies... It seems like SE has pushed them back a while, and they might be different than what the old team made them sound like before. So who knows. There's a lot of things they could do with them, but ultimately it's all just speculation. So I'm just gonna wait until we get some word on the specifics before I go assuming anything about them. I do hope they knock it out of the park though, the potential definitely exists with the concept.
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#3 Jan 28 2011 at 7:48 AM Rating: Default
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My opinion: If the class' function isn't to kill things it shouldn't be called a class, it should be a side skill.
#4 Jan 28 2011 at 8:00 AM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
My opinion: If the class' function isn't to kill things it shouldn't be called a class, it should be a side skill.


Interesting opinion. If this was FFXI that means my BRD shouldn't be considered a job but a side skill, since you can't realistically kill anything that pose any kind of threat to you compared to say COR which can QD/Kite kill things. I figured DoH/DoL would be considered non-battle classes.

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#5 Jan 28 2011 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
My opinion: If the class' function isn't to kill things it shouldn't be called a class, it should be a side skill.


As mentioned before fi that was the case there would be only a couple, maybe three or four classes in FFXI. Also from your point of view any healing job/class in wouldnt be a class, to a certain extent even tanks wouldnt be real classes as their damage is irelevant to a point..

Also on that point any ability that DoW/M have that does not involve causing damage is irelevant as it doesn't cause damage...
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#6 Jan 28 2011 at 8:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Why do games have to all be about killing things?
#7 Jan 28 2011 at 8:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Hugus wrote:
BrokenFox wrote:
My opinion: If the class' function isn't to kill things it shouldn't be called a class, it should be a side skill.


As mentioned before fi that was the case there would be only a couple, maybe three or four classes in FFXI. Also from your point of view any healing job/class in wouldnt be a class, to a certain extent even tanks wouldnt be real classes as their damage is irelevant to a point..

Also on that point any ability that DoW/M have that does not involve causing damage is irelevant as it doesn't cause damage...



Well now theres a pretty clear line of what FFXIV classes can be useful in a fight and what can't, if there werent you wouldnt see the categorization of DoW and DoM split out from DoH and DoL. Every single class from FFXI would be considered either a DoW or DoM class.

This is more about the term "class" being used and people reading more into what they think that should mean. If instead of saying that PGL was a class and FFXIV just had hand to hand skill, substituting "a h2h weapon" as the requirement for PGL only abilities SE would just have to reward the silly "favors this or that 'class'" in their armor and this whole line of discussion becomes even more irrelevant. The mechanics of the characters don't change if you refer to weaving or archery as a class or a skill, a weaver still wont be in endgame combat, and an archer still wont be crafting end game clothes.
#8 Jan 28 2011 at 9:02 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
a weaver still wont be in endgame combat, and an archer still wont be crafting end game clothes.


My question has always been - what is it that you can do with crafting as a "main" class that you wouldn't have been able to do with it as a side skill?

Honestly I blame SE for not thinking completely through a lot of things when planning this game. Instead of having everyone on the same path, from the START there should have been two clear paths to follow for the main storyline - maybe even three or four based on what role you want to play (Crafter, Tank, Healer, Fighter).

Instead, they just dumbed down everything so that rock throwers would be able to do the same quests that axe wielders could, and I'm not convinced it was really the best way to do things.

Besides that - if SE really wanted crafters to be self-sufficient classes they shouldn't have made them so weak.... Why can't a blacksmith attack with that hammer? Why not make is so that scythe doubles as an actual weapon? Is there any real reason why a tailor can't use 1000 needles?

There's so much more they could have done to crafting classes to make them all-around useful, but instead they get a rock throw and as a result, everyone else doesn't view them as anything more than a side skill with a fancy place in the Jobs list.
#9 Jan 28 2011 at 9:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Hugus wrote:
BrokenFox wrote:
My opinion: If the class' function isn't to kill things it shouldn't be called a class, it should be a side skill.


As mentioned before fi that was the case there would be only a couple, maybe three or four classes in FFXI. Also from your point of view any healing job/class in wouldnt be a class, to a certain extent even tanks wouldnt be real classes as their damage is irelevant to a point..

Also on that point any ability that DoW/M have that does not involve causing damage is irelevant as it doesn't cause damage...


That doesn't make any sense... He didn't say a class is something that deals huge amounts of damage only. He said they can kill things. Even if a job sticks to healing, they have a role to play in the killing of things, in the party setup, without them, you wouldn't kill things. Same goes for tanks. ****, my WHM could easily solo T monsters, where my WAR pre-/DNC would have been face down in the dirt in mere seconds. Even my BRD could solo tougher things. Sure it took a while, but it could be done rather easily.

Throwing rocks at monsters for 2 damage won't cut it for the DoL classes, and the DoH ones can't even defend themselves at all. I tend to agree with BrokenFox on this, it's another idea that sounds great on paper, but really doesn't cut it in practice. It's no wonder the missions are so easy if they need to make sure they're balanced for classes that can't kill. Imagine reaching the "final boss" fight, like say Shadow Lord once was, and just using parley to make your way through. Where's the thrill in that?

I don't want them to tune all future content to make sure it's realistically do-able by non-fighting classes, personally. This should be a game about an epic storyline, with grand battles, evil that needs to be conquered and huge beasts that we have to kill. I'm sorry, but outside of making myself a new robe, my weaving needle shouldn't have anything to do with fighting evil.

I do like the idea of making them useful for companies in the future. In the same way AoC used them for the Guild City. Both gatherers and crafters had their role to play in it, and it was a fun diversion. However, I believe that they should have been side skills, not full time classes.
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#10 Jan 28 2011 at 9:14 AM Rating: Good
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Bruknarr wrote:
Hugus wrote:
BrokenFox wrote:
My opinion: If the class' function isn't to kill things it shouldn't be called a class, it should be a side skill.


As mentioned before fi that was the case there would be only a couple, maybe three or four classes in FFXI. Also from your point of view any healing job/class in wouldnt be a class, to a certain extent even tanks wouldnt be real classes as their damage is irelevant to a point..

Also on that point any ability that DoW/M have that does not involve causing damage is irelevant as it doesn't cause damage...


That doesn't make any sense... He didn't say a class is something that deals huge amounts of damage only. He said they can kill things. Even if a job sticks to healing, they have a role to play in the killing of things, in the party setup, without them, you wouldn't kill things. Same goes for tanks. ****, my WHM could easily solo T monsters, where my WAR pre-/DNC would have been face down in the dirt in mere seconds. Even my BRD could solo tougher things. Sure it took a while, but it could be done rather easily.

Throwing rocks at monsters for 2 damage won't cut it for the DoL classes, and the DoH ones can't even defend themselves at all. I tend to agree with BrokenFox on this, it's another idea that sounds great on paper, but really doesn't cut it in practice. It's no wonder the missions are so easy if they need to make sure they're balanced for classes that can't kill. Imagine reaching the "final boss" fight, like say Shadow Lord once was, and just using parley to make your way through. Where's the thrill in that?

I don't want them to tune all future content to make sure it's realistically do-able by non-fighting classes, personally. This should be a game about an epic storyline, with grand battles, evil that needs to be conquered and huge beasts that we have to kill. I'm sorry, but outside of making myself a new robe, my weaving needle shouldn't have anything to do with fighting evil.

I do like the idea of making them useful for companies in the future. In the same way AoC used them for the Guild City. Both gatherers and crafters had their role to play in it, and it was a fun diversion. However, I believe that they should have been side skills, not full time classes.


before write that argument of your, do you even know how much dmg a "Smoothed Stone" can deal ? and with that r1 craft any DoH and DoL can kill low lvl mobs emself, so as long they can kill they are a class right ?

and the dmg from "Smoothed Stone" is at least 70 hit/throw on a marmot
#11 Jan 28 2011 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent
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I'll rephrase my statement to: If a class' function isn't to kill things, or to help kill things in combat, it shouldn't be called a class.

I've always thought of Final Fantasy characters as heroes, whether they're stabbing, healing, stealing or singing battle songs. In a Final Fantasy MMO, your character is a hero! There is nothing heroic about baking bread (in the context of this game, at least). Keep that stuff in side-skill territory.

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 10:29am by BrokenFox
#12 Jan 28 2011 at 9:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Shneibel wrote:
[/quote]

before write that argument of your, do you even know how much dmg a "Smoothed Stone" can deal ? and with that r1 craft any DoH and DoL can kill low lvl mobs emself, so as long they can kill they are a class right ?

and the dmg from "Smoothed Stone" is at least 70 hit/throw on a marmot


I have no idea what smoothed stones are, but if there's a way to kill low level, non aggressive mobs outside of town, I guess I'm happy for them? Not gonna help be of any use to anyone in a real fight or a story mission, which was my point. Note that it said if the function of class isn't to kill things. Which it isn't in the case of any DoL or DoH class. Healers and Support classes have a function in the killing of things, on top of being able to hold their own in a fight.
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#13 Jan 28 2011 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
I'll rephrase my statement to: If a class' function isn't to kill things, or to help kill things in combat, it shouldn't be called a class.

I've always thought of Final Fantasy characters as heroes, whether they're stabbing, healing, stealing or singing battle songs. In a Final Fantasy MMO, your character is a hero! There is nothing heroic about baking bread (in the context of this game, at least).

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 10:25am by BrokenFox


and most of the OMG AWESOME gear the hero use to defeast the AWESOME boss come from some kind of legendary craft isnt it ? as if we begin to talk about story

also for the most part, i am very sure the quest for DoH and DoL is seperate from the DoW and DoM and the only thing they share are the story quest, so what is the problem in this matter since they are at their owm field ?

ps: are you rp ?

Quote:
I have no idea what smoothed stones are, but if there's a way to kill low level, non aggressive mobs outside of town, I guess I'm happy for them? Not gonna help be of any use to anyone in a real fight or a story mission, which was my point. Note that it said if the function of class isn't to kill things. Which it isn't in the case of any DoL or DoH class. Healers and Support classes have a function in the killing of things, on top of being able to hold their own in a fight.



then now you ll know : "smoothed stone" is a all class throw wep, and since we talk about "real" (get back down to earth pls this is a game) fight, any dmg help even the 1-2 sec stun help too !

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 10:33am by Shneibel
#14 Jan 28 2011 at 9:30 AM Rating: Default
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As I said, keep it as a side skill.

Am I RP? Do I role play? Is that what you mean? Answer's no, not at all.
#15 Jan 28 2011 at 9:35 AM Rating: Decent
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then you can keep it as a side skill, and ppl who want it to be their main should beable to have those as their main, there is nothing to debat in here
#16 Jan 28 2011 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
My opinion: If the class' function isn't to kill things it shouldn't be called a class, it should be a side skill.

You are entitled to your opinion. I could personally define white as black, up as down, and left as right if I wanted to, nothings stopping me. However, a person choosing to interpret things in such a way, does not change the actual definition of said things. The fact of the matter is that SE chose to make DoL/DoH jobs full blown classes, whether we like it or not. We could all debate whether that's good or bad all day long, but it doesn't change that it is how the game works.

Personally I don't really care, it's just a label more or less. The jobs still do the same thing they did before, they just take way longer to level, and have a couple abilities now. I've said before I wish they made the synths take much less time, and balanced it by requiring you to go farm or make gils and raising the costs of crafting, because I'd rather it take the same time, but have most of that time spent doing other things beyond mashing standard synth. Regardless though, crafters are classes now, we'll have to see how SE handles the details of it later on, but let's not get hung up on labels.


Torrence wrote:
Quote:
a weaver still wont be in endgame combat, and an archer still wont be crafting end game clothes.


My question has always been - what is it that you can do with crafting as a "main" class that you wouldn't have been able to do with it as a side skill?

Honestly I blame SE for not thinking completely through a lot of things when planning this game. Instead of having everyone on the same path, from the START there should have been two clear paths to follow for the main storyline - maybe even three or four based on what role you want to play (Crafter, Tank, Healer, Fighter).

Instead, they just dumbed down everything so that rock throwers would be able to do the same quests that axe wielders could, and I'm not convinced it was really the best way to do things.

Besides that - if SE really wanted crafters to be self-sufficient classes they shouldn't have made them so weak.... Why can't a blacksmith attack with that hammer? Why not make is so that scythe doubles as an actual weapon? Is there any real reason why a tailor can't use 1000 needles?

There's so much more they could have done to crafting classes to make them all-around useful, but instead they get a rock throw and as a result, everyone else doesn't view them as anything more than a side skill with a fancy place in the Jobs list.


I think you're missing the point of the class system... Crafters aren't supposed to fight, rock throw is more of a joke than anything. They have their purpose outside of battles, and that's the way it should stay. They are still capable of being main classes for players, I know people who are basically just crafters/gatherers, and it's working out fine for them. They are not self sufficient, they rely on other players who do have battle classes, but they also have things to offer those players, so it's a mutual benefit. It is an MMO after all, there is no need to be self sufficient, as long as your class enables you to fill a role, things are fine.

I do agree that SE could have handled it a bit better though, and split the story quests apart for the crafter/gatherers/battle jobs. It does feel like some missions were dumbed down so that crafters could handle them.. I say just give the battle jobs fight based misions that require them to form parties of other battle jobs, and give the crafters mostly solo based quests with a few that require them to find crafters of other fields to assist them.

Solo only players can either choose to miss out on most of the missions, or main a gathering class and have those focus on solo play. Battle jobs should be focused on parties for missions/leveling/endgame etc.

That's my opinion at least... At the end of the day though, it's SE's choice where they go with the game, so we'll just have to wait and see. But a lot of players are really into crafting, and SE wanted to make crafting skills into full classes... I don't see anything wrong with that, and like I said, it's really just a label... Not that big a deal by itself.
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#17 Jan 28 2011 at 9:37 AM Rating: Default
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Who's debating? I'm just stating my opinion. I thought it was a stupid move on SE's part and a lot of people will agree with me.

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 10:43am by BrokenFox
#18 Jan 28 2011 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
I'll rephrase my statement to: If a class' function isn't to kill things, or to help kill things in combat, it shouldn't be called a class.


That's what I don't fully get, since bringing along someone who specializes in DoH classes ensure that you have someone to repair your gear if you're out in the field and don't have time/can't return to town or can't do it yourself. Crafting classes are basically XIV's support role, like in XI BRD and COR were the support roles there.

Realistically anything that utilizes skills and abilities are considered a class/job/profession in RPGs. Even freelancers and "Onion Knight" is consider a class/job. Otherwise you would want them to scrap the DoH/DoL and implement the "base" skill system as well as "specified class" skill trees...since the DoH/DoL abilities will have to come from somewhere and I can guarantee people wouldn't be happy learning arbor call prior to learning aegis boon.

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#19 Jan 28 2011 at 9:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Shneibel wrote:
BrokenFox wrote:
I'll rephrase my statement to: If a class' function isn't to kill things, or to help kill things in combat, it shouldn't be called a class.

I've always thought of Final Fantasy characters as heroes, whether they're stabbing, healing, stealing or singing battle songs. In a Final Fantasy MMO, your character is a hero! There is nothing heroic about baking bread (in the context of this game, at least).

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 10:25am by BrokenFox


and most of the OMG AWESOME gear the hero use to defeast the AWESOME boss come from some kind of legendary craft isnt it ? as if we begin to talk about story

also for the most part, i am very sure the quest for DoH and DoL is seperate from the DoW and DoM and the only thing they share are the story quest, so what is the problem in this matter since they are at their owm field ?

ps: are you rp ?

Quote:
I have no idea what smoothed stones are, but if there's a way to kill low level, non aggressive mobs outside of town, I guess I'm happy for them? Not gonna help be of any use to anyone in a real fight or a story mission, which was my point. Note that it said if the function of class isn't to kill things. Which it isn't in the case of any DoL or DoH class. Healers and Support classes have a function in the killing of things, on top of being able to hold their own in a fight.



then now you ll know : "smoothed stone" is a all class throw wep, and since we talk about "real" (get back down to earth pls this is a game) fight, any dmg help even the 1-2 sec stun help too !

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 10:33am by Shneibel


I have no problem with crafts getting their own quests. It makes things interesting, and those quests are BUILT around that specific class, meant to take advantage of whatever they have to offer. They're not the issue here, and have nothing to do with this.

And I'm sure people will be eager to fill valuable party spots with rock-throwing craft classes now. Thank god for smoothed stones. Make sure you don't bother using that sledgehammer, stones are fine, really.
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#20 Jan 28 2011 at 9:43 AM Rating: Default
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Sitting in town playing boring little mini-games for hours to make.. stuff, is just boring. Boring in practice and in theory. Horrible game design. I just don't get the appeal of something so dull.
#21 Jan 28 2011 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
Sitting in town playing boring little mini-games for hours to make.. stuff, is just boring. Boring in practice and in theory. Horrible game design. I just don't get the appeal of something so dull.


if you dont like it, dont do it. if you do it dont Q.Q about it being boring, no one neither the game itself force you to do those
#22 Jan 28 2011 at 9:47 AM Rating: Good
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I think this is a perfect example of something SE should listen to people, and keep going forward with. The DOH and DOL jobs as classes take nothing away from combat classes. As such, we provide our own type of immersion, and potential for partying. While it would be nice to see an option in the future where there are instance areas where there are mining, harvesting, or fishing points. Or there are pop items that are crafted, which would not require a DOH or DOL, but, if you had one your company could end up with bigger or better (or high level crafters can charge for pop items for example and sell the ones they don't use).

It adds a dynamic to the game that is outside of many people's field of view, and lets face it, it is probably the most refreshing paradigm shift SE did with 14. The idea of leveling crafting in 11 always felt like a seperate job that you did on your off time. Now you can do it with friends. The repair bit probably works the best for all of it, in that, not only do you want someone who has great gear and can deal damage, to have someone in your party that can repair your gear while you are out there, and keep things going (between breaks) would be great... If there were partying...

So, while many people will think that DOH and DOL are second class citizens, we know better:).
#23 Jan 28 2011 at 9:49 AM Rating: Good
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Tiger228 wrote:

Personally I don't really care, it's just a label more or less.


I agree with this. I think the main issue is that because of this label, SE feels to need to include them in aspects of the game they really should have nothing to do with. It ends up hurting the quality of the experience overall, in my opinion. A separate storyline would have been nice for sure.

Another issue with DoL and DoH, is that they've made them incredibly accessible in an effort to promote social interactivity. But it's a double-edged sword, since now it's so easy to level them, the majority of people just decide to do it themselves instead of relying on others.
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#24 Jan 28 2011 at 9:50 AM Rating: Default
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Shneibel wrote:
BrokenFox wrote:
Sitting in town playing boring little mini-games for hours to make.. stuff, is just boring. Boring in practice and in theory. Horrible game design. I just don't get the appeal of something so dull.


if you dont like it, dont do it. if you do it dont Q.Q about it being boring, no one neither the game itself force you to do those

that is my critique on the game. voicing opinions is the point of this place, so kindly **** off.
#25 Jan 28 2011 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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<3 the OP
<3 crafting as classes
<3 DoH/L being influential on the game.
<3 the idea of groups of crafters working on a company owned ship

<3<3<3<3

sorry ive gone a bit loopy, but still <3

BrokenFox, ive never seen anyone fail so hard in a thread.
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#26 Jan 28 2011 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
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a weaver still wont be in endgame combat, and an archer still wont be crafting end game clothes.


My question has always been - what is it that you can do with crafting as a "main" class that you wouldn't have been able to do with it as a side skill?

Honestly I blame SE for not thinking completely through a lot of things when planning this game. Instead of having everyone on the same path, from the START there should have been two clear paths to follow for the main storyline - maybe even three or four based on what role you want to play (Crafter, Tank, Healer, Fighter).

Instead, they just dumbed down everything so that rock throwers would be able to do the same quests that axe wielders could, and I'm not convinced it was really the best way to do things.

Besides that - if SE really wanted crafters to be self-sufficient classes they shouldn't have made them so weak.... Why can't a blacksmith attack with that hammer? Why not make is so that scythe doubles as an actual weapon? Is there any real reason why a tailor can't use 1000 needles?

There's so much more they could have done to crafting classes to make them all-around useful, but instead they get a rock throw and as a result, everyone else doesn't view them as anything more than a side skill with a fancy place in the Jobs list.



I think the issue is how you're defining "main class" and how you're defining "side skill".

A gladiator is defined by their sword skill, and a weaver is defined by their weaving skill. If you just called the sword skill a side skill and do away with the concept of a gladiator class (just have their current exclusive abilities say 'requires a sword'" You have a DoW "class" turned into a side skill. It doesn't make a difference, they still cant repair their armor, heal themselves, cast spells etc.. that all requires you to level a different skill (class).

Nothing would change if you called any current class just a side skill, but the system and naming conventions that FFXIV uses would be inconsistent if they did that. If SE just added two slots for a craft main tool and craft off tool they could avoid a main hand switch and thus a class switch, just like they handle the sentinel skill. All this would buy you is the inability to have crafter favored gear, crafter specific stat caps, crafter specific ability point caps and probably others... all for a superficial name change and avoiding a main hand switch.

I blame SE for not thinking things through as thoroughly too, but a core concept seems to be that no one class is going to be effective without leveling others. Because we need to level all these supporting classes a plot line for DoW, DoM, DoL and DoH makes more sense than by picking the (Crafter, Tank, Healer, Fighter) roles. We have class specific missions/quests, like everything else (including the main plot line) we're waiting on additional content.
#27 Jan 28 2011 at 10:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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BrokenFox wrote:
Sitting in town playing boring little mini-games for hours to make.. stuff, is just boring. Boring in practice and in theory. Horrible game design. I just don't get the appeal of something so dull.


It's no different than sitting in a camp pressing buttons to kill stuff for hours to make XP, or roaming in a pre-determined area slaughtering things for hours. The only differences are on what your attention is focused on, and the fact that you'd be moving around a little more as an adventuring class. (I say "a little" because some of those delivery destinations for DoH leves are really nasty for the rank you get them...)

Right now, ironically enough, it's only the DoH/DoL classes that actually feel like distinct classes--at least to me. The mix-and-match in combination with the general battle leves really kills the distinctness of the DoW/DoM classes for me as they are lumped into a "Your Overall Adventuring Class" type of class. If they actually introduce more quests to make the classes distinct from each other instead of more "one-size-fits-all" type of quests in the future, that would help -- but for now that's just wishful thinking.

#28 Jan 28 2011 at 10:34 AM Rating: Default
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Hugus wrote:

On the DoW side, even though we have a lot of people complaining that they only use a few abilities, button bashing, they can easily fill out and use the full 10 slots on the first row and if really needed fill out the other 20. From my experience, it's only really practical to use the first 10. Now in regards to DoH I dont think we get enough points to put a forth Godsend untill your either 30 or close to it but even if you only have 3 godsend that is still 7 options you have to choose from the minigame.


This is absolutely wrong. If you are only using the top 10 slots on your action bars, you are missing out on a HUGE amount of potential. On my 41 gladiator, I sit at 54/54 on my bar, I have 1-10, 11-17, and 20-27 completely filled. I use almost all of these skills quite regularly, and a few are there as "oh ****" moments. I also have completely different builds for different situations. Fighting in a group against harder mobs? I throw on my tanking/defense set of abilities. Soloing easier stuff? Swap out to my offense build. No healer in the group? Throw on my healing setup. The beauty of the DoW/DoM classes is their diversity and ability to plan for unique situations because they aren't limited by what abilities they can use.

As a DoH/DoL, I don't have that luxury. I have a very limited selection of abilities to choose from, all of which do VERY similar things. Sure I can put skills on to go for either completing a synth or hq-ing, but that's about where the customization ends. On top of that, every single crafting job uses the exact same setup for these. If I am doing a standard synth, I put on preserve, tender touch, and maker's muse. If I'm going HQ I put on masterpiece and fulfillment. That's it. DoL, pretty much the same thing. I have 1 or 2 useful skills for my bar that I just always equip on that class, and that's it.

Don't get me wrong, if people are content in only leveling DoH/DoL classes, that is great. I'm not trying to take anything away from them. But realistically comparing them to DoW/DoM classes and saying they have the same depth is just not true. I hope that someday they will have that same amount of variation and customization, but right now that just isn't the case.
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#29 Jan 28 2011 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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I too would love to have "General Storyline" quests divided between DoW/M and DoH/L but as they are I think they cater to everyone, I dont think As a ARM38 i can fight the beastmen so I'm restricted to parley, a DoW38 can either fight or parley so I say they have the greater/better choice.

Saying that DoH/L dont contribute to killing mobs is either naivety or plain blindness, go and fight those NMs naked and tell me how well you did and then come back to me saying that DoH/L don't contribute.

I created this thread because I found it so strange that some people would not consider DoH/L as classes and wanted to start an interesting discussion of different points of view which I like to know other's points of view. In my opinion DoH/L are classes because SE wanted to make sure that they would be able to access all areas and as such had to have them get EXP.

@ BartelX

I don't have much experience in DoW and what I have is 95% solo so I never claim to be expert in fighting and such. My coment as it was, was based on the claim by many of the people in ZAM saying that when fighting all they do is press 1 to 3 buttons repeatedly. Myself, only having MRD30 and GLA10 skill use an average of 5 to 6 abilities.
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#30 Jan 28 2011 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
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I think that here is the dilemma to this issue.

First, imagine a game where only combat takes place (no crafting at all). All you get to choose from are combat classes, all there is to do is go on missions, fight things, do epic quests, etc...

Now, imagine a game where only crafting takes place (no one can fight, there's nothing to fight). You can bake, you can make armor, weapons, potions, but you can't do anything with it.

Obviously, this is a complete exaggeration, because in ffxiv, you can choose to do it all. But if you think about it, this is why most people don't consider crafting a class. The former would make a perfectly fine game, in fact, take final fantasies 1-10, 12, 13, and what i would assume to be all the side ones, and this is basically what you have, all combat no craft. It makes for a fun game. The latter on the other hand would be, to most, an utterly dreadful game. It would provide no fun, no excitement, nothing.

So, to the people who don't consider DoH a class, its because in the traditional sense of gaming, you can't actually play a game by just being a crafter. Crafting in most games is just to enhance battle, it cannot be a standalone entity. I think that it would have been possible for SE to make crafters into real classes, but SE took a good idea, and didn't follow through with it in the slightest. Think alchemist from FFT, or even on the FFXIV main website, at one time, it said that armorers would have an advantage against metal opponents. So for the time being, the "true class" that SE sought to make out of crafters has turned into just a side skill for most. In the meantime, these "side skills" have practically disrupted what most DoW/DoM love about these games, the aforementioned missions, epic quests, and boss battles, because, anything a DoW/M can do, must be equally completable by DoH/L, even if by parley alone.
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#31 Jan 28 2011 at 11:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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It really depends on your take on things. I see them as true classes since you can reach the top of your DoH rank without focusing too much on the other classes to help you out, soloing I mean. I think SE has listened to a lot of FFXI players who said:"Well, I just want to craft period, without leveling a job that requires slaying endless amount of mobs. And I want to do it in my own pace, I dont care how long it takes." There were about 3 to 4 people in the endgame ls's I was in playing FFXI that were thinking just like that. They usually had only 1 job leveled, preferably brd, since they could quickly level up so they could focus on crafting alone. Brd is imo pretty close to a DoH class, since they are just supporting the fight. DoH class is just as supportive to the other classes, without the need to fight. Yes, SE has to work on the class to make it more interesting in my taste, but it's still a class on it's own.

I have a preference to sometimes only walk around in games to enjoy the view, participate with the NPC's, even though it's only talking. Heck, that's mostly what I did in FFXI myself most of the time, just goofing off helping others. I'm very glad I will have the opportunity to do just that if I please when FFXIV gets released on the PS3.

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 6:22pm by MonarctheFirst
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#32 Jan 28 2011 at 11:36 AM Rating: Default
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phoenixcws wrote:
Hugus wrote:
BrokenFox wrote:
My opinion: If the class' function isn't to kill things it shouldn't be called a class, it should be a side skill.


As mentioned before fi that was the case there would be only a couple, maybe three or four classes in FFXI. Also from your point of view any healing job/class in wouldnt be a class, to a certain extent even tanks wouldnt be real classes as their damage is irelevant to a point..

Also on that point any ability that DoW/M have that does not involve causing damage is irelevant as it doesn't cause damage...



Well now theres a pretty clear line of what FFXIV classes can be useful in a fight and what can't, if there werent you wouldnt see the categorization of DoW and DoM split out from DoH and DoL. Every single class from FFXI would be considered either a DoW or DoM class.

This is more about the term "class" being used and people reading more into what they think that should mean. If instead of saying that PGL was a class and FFXIV just had hand to hand skill, substituting "a h2h weapon" as the requirement for PGL only abilities SE would just have to reward the silly "favors this or that 'class'" in their armor and this whole line of discussion becomes even more irrelevant. The mechanics of the characters don't change if you refer to weaving or archery as a class or a skill, a weaver still wont be in endgame combat, and an archer still wont be crafting end game clothes.


Hugus wrote:
I too would love to have "General Storyline" quests divided between DoW/M and DoH/L but as they are I think they cater to everyone, I dont think As a ARM38 i can fight the beastmen so I'm restricted to parley, a DoW38 can either fight or parley so I say they have the greater/better choice.

Saying that DoH/L dont contribute to killing mobs is either naivety or plain blindness, go and fight those NMs naked and tell me how well you did and then come back to me saying that DoH/L don't contribute.

I created this thread because I found it so strange that some people would not consider DoH/L as classes and wanted to start an interesting discussion of different points of view which I like to know other's points of view. In my opinion DoH/L are classes because SE wanted to make sure that they would be able to access all areas and as such had to have them get EXP.

@ BartelX

I don't have much experience in DoW and what I have is 95% solo so I never claim to be expert in fighting and such. My coment as it was, was based on the claim by many of the people in ZAM saying that when fighting all they do is press 1 to 3 buttons repeatedly. Myself, only having MRD30 and GLA10 skill use an average of 5 to 6 abilities.



I've highlighted the appropriate lines... Even if you misread what I typed, putting a DoH on the same level of usefulness in killing monsters (in the grand scheme or the immediate encounter) as any class in FFXI is absurd.

I don't agree with much of what BrokenFox has posted in this thread, purposely misconstruing what he said to come up with a reply stating that only 3 or 4 of FFXI jobs are real classes is borderline, but deciding to defend the sentiment by claiming that DoH are anywhere near as functional in terms of killing mobs as other classes is... if not "either naivety or plain blindness" then its a foolish defense of a foolish statement.


Note:
If your "naivety or plain blindness" was not directed toward my response to your post, my apologies for being a little more vehement than necessary, however the point still stands.
#33 Jan 28 2011 at 11:56 AM Rating: Default
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That's what I don't fully get, since bringing along someone who specializes in DoH classes ensure that you have someone to repair your gear if you're out in the field and don't have time/can't return to town or can't do it yourself. Crafting classes are basically XIV's support role, like in XI BRD and COR were the support roles there.


Maybe - but should armor degrade at such a rate that every 5 minutes you should be stopping battle entirely so that your Blacksmith can do some repairs, thus justifying losing a pt slot just to bring one along? It sounds horrible in theory and I can only imagine what kind of a nightmare it would be in practice. That blacksmith would still need to be an actual battle class to be useful, and again I say what is it that you can do with crafts as a main class that our blacksmith in question wouldn't be able to do with it as a side skill or profession? He's not bringing anything to the table except the potential to slow down the pt as we do these excessive repairs that probably shouldn't exist in the first place.

Comparing it to BRD and COR in FFXI is just silly and some of the posts in here are really, really borderline obsessive with the crafting. I get that folks like it - I really do. Crafting can be fun and I know you enjoy telling people you are a Weaver or a Tailor or a Blacksmith.

However, that doesn't change the fact that in SE's quest to keep everything fair for you, the rest of the game has suffered.
#34 Jan 28 2011 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:


Maybe - but should armor degrade at such a rate that every 5 minutes you should be stopping battle entirely so that your Blacksmith can do some repairs, thus justifying losing a pt slot just to bring one along? It sounds horrible in theory and I can only imagine what kind of a nightmare it would be in practice. That blacksmith would still need to be an actual battle class to be useful, and again I say what is it that you can do with crafts as a main class that our blacksmith in question wouldn't be able to do with it as a side skill or profession? He's not bringing anything to the table except the potential to slow down the pt as we do these excessive repairs that probably shouldn't exist in the first place.

Comparing it to BRD and COR in FFXI is just silly and some of the posts in here are really, really borderline obsessive with the crafting. I get that folks like it - I really do. Crafting can be fun and I know you enjoy telling people you are a Weaver or a Tailor or a Blacksmith.

However, that doesn't change the fact that in SE's quest to keep everything fair for you, the rest of the game has suffered.


To be honest, if the intention really was to drag along DoH into fights, it would have been nice to get relevant abilities for the party members, like maybe armorers significantly boosting crit rates on attacking metallic enemies or Blacksmiths being able to significantly lower durability decay on weapons.
#35 Jan 28 2011 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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I doubt there was some greater plan involved in calling DoH "classes" as opposed to skills, its just more consistent because they equip their tool in the main hand slot which is how FFXIV decides to denote classes. It has the side benefit of allowing for gear that only gives benefits (or drawbacks) to crafters, along with their own action point cap (being restricted to only equipping preserve on your level 50 alch because you dont have any weapon skill leveled past 3 would suck).

The whole thought of it being called a class or a skill seems to be more of a player hangup on semantics than anything.

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 1:11pm by phoenixcws
#36 Jan 28 2011 at 12:15 PM Rating: Default
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Hugus wrote:

I don't have much experience in DoW and what I have is 95% solo so I never claim to be expert in fighting and such. My coment as it was, was based on the claim by many of the people in ZAM saying that when fighting all they do is press 1 to 3 buttons repeatedly. Myself, only having MRD30 and GLA10 skill use an average of 5 to 6 abilities.


Fair enough, sorry for singling you out, it's just a different playstyle I guess. All I'm saying is that I use all my skills on my classes when I need them. I can see how someone who solo's a lot wouldn't have as much need for situational stuff since it's always the same situation... you vs. the mobs. Admittedly, when I solo I use FAR fewer abilities simply because it's not as efficient. But there are a lot of times when I'm in groups, or just fighting something hard where I'm glad I have all those abilities on my bars.
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#37 Jan 28 2011 at 12:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Torrence wrote:


However, that doesn't change the fact that in SE's quest to keep everything fair for you, the rest of the game has suffered.


How has the game suffered? I don't know if you have noticed but even the quests that are JUST made for DoW/DoM are loleasy.

I mean if it is really the crafter's fault that the main storyline is easy than why is the GLA 20 quest faceroll easy? Why is the R20 Con quest faceroll easy? Why is the R20 THM quest faceroll easy?

You can't blame crafters for that.

I think the emphasis on solo play is what made these quests so easy - not crafters. SE could have easily tuned the battle options for the main story quests to be harder - but they didn't - not because stone throw sucks (cause that is what parley is for) but because the game was made for their vision of fail-sauce casual soloers.
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#38 Jan 28 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Torrence wrote:


However, that doesn't change the fact that in SE's quest to keep everything fair for you, the rest of the game has suffered.


How has the game suffered? I don't know if you have noticed but even the quests that are JUST made for DoW/DoM are loleasy.

I mean if it is really the crafter's fault that the main storyline is easy than why is the GLA 20 quest faceroll easy? Why is the R20 Con quest faceroll easy? Why is the R20 THM quest faceroll easy?

You can't blame crafters for that.

I think the emphasis on solo play is what made these quests so easy - not crafters. SE could have easily tuned the battle options for the main story quests to be harder - but they didn't - not because stone throw sucks (cause that is what parley is for) but because the game was made for their vision of fail-sauce casual soloers.



I agree totally, I think what we're seeing is just a peek into what making the game more centered towards casual players (read: easy) means. SE was pretty clear on the point that everything would be available to be done on a single character, and that their content would be geared toward the casual.

I have a feeling that a lot of people that liked FFXI liked the fact that it was more difficult than the other mainstream MMOs... Personally I hated the change to zoning monsters disappearing, it made pulling far far less risky (and interesting, despite GC and CN ****) I hated them dumbing down promy difficulties, and most anything CoP related... but I digress.

I don't want to be doom and gloom, but I expect to see leveling and early quests stay this easy, thus not frustrating players and lowering the "cost of entry" to the game... Its shown to be an extremely lucrative formula, as a certain unmentionable game has proven...
#39 Jan 28 2011 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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@ phoenixcws

My statement was not directed at you specially but as a general response to the overall comunity stating that the Existance of Crafting and gathering are hinderances to the game as a whole. I can understand that you might see my example as an exageration and it is indeed taking the situation to an extreme but belive you me not the furthest.

If one is to say that DoH have no infuence in fighing then I could (and this is only to make a point, not to take it seariously) to DoM/W to go out fighting not only without armour but also without weapons as these are mostly provided by BS.

Between a FFXI party 5 members fully naked and weaponless with a BRD and a party of fully equipped characters I'm almost sure the second would be much more eficient.
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#40 Jan 28 2011 at 12:55 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I think this is a perfect example of something SE should listen to people, and keep going forward with. The DOH and DOL jobs as classes take nothing away from combat classes.

and
Quote:
I mean if it is really the crafter's fault that the main storyline is easy


At least crafters are responsible for the storyline quests being facepalm parley.
#41 Jan 28 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
I think this is a perfect example of something SE should listen to people, and keep going forward with. The DOH and DOL jobs as classes take nothing away from combat classes.

and
Quote:
I mean if it is really the crafter's fault that the main storyline is easy


At least crafters are responsible for the storyline quests being facepalm parley.


You do know that most parley are given as a choice instead of fighting?

If you dont like parlay just go ahead and fight!
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#42 Jan 28 2011 at 1:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hugus wrote:
Rinsui wrote:


at least crafters are responsible for the storyline quests being facepalm parley.


You do know that most parley are given as a choice instead of fighting?

If you dont like parlay just go ahead and fight!


Exactly! And crafters can't be blamed for the resulting battle sucking - again - the reason crap is easy is because SE confused casual with easy... heck, who knows - maybe they are not mistaken that casual = easy. I don't think so but I am a weird demographic for a gamer (full time job, female, 28 years old)

Edited, Jan 28th 2011 11:42am by Olorinus
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#43 Jan 28 2011 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't know much about the game suffering for the sake of equality as we barely got a shell of what's in stored for the game, but I do recall them saying they made the storyline for example soloable purposefully so it's not another instance of XI where you NEED people to progress certain points of the storyline, since it was apparently a major complaint.

**** you can't even enter the "arena" styled fights with a friend, since you get the "this content may be undertaken by only 1 player" or something error.
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#44 Jan 28 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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As some have explicitly stated and/or implied, even the DoM/DoW classes due to lack of content aren't fully fleshed out yet.

I think it's an interesting concept to have DoH and DoL as main classes, but I don't see how they can or will partake in ever being a main class. Unless crafting something takes the same amount of skill as taking down a raid boss, people will opt for a DoW/M class every time.

It would be interesting to ask this question: If you couldn't play a DoM/W class, that is to say, if you couldn't play anything BUT a DoH class, would you?

Personally crafting in this game is tolerable and in most cases rewarding; it's a giant step up from FFXI IMO. However I still (and 80%+) of us want to be a DoM/W class. In the end we want to fight our final battles, not craft them even if DoH are true classes or not.
#45 Jan 28 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Decent
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why do you people think a class has to do with killing things?

it doesnt.... the doh/dol is a class, they have there own skills yes limited.

why do you think class has to do with grouping, you can group with other doh/dol to make items faster so how is that not a class?

Wrong, these are the perceptions that everquest and wow installed into your feeble little minds.

this is why items need items crafted from other classes,

so you can see a group of doh working together to make items faster, same with dol have a group and go gather faster, called distractions.. so how are these not classes?

just because they do not fit in with the WoW/Everquest cookie cutter style classes doesnt mean there not classes, So stop being so ignorant and open your minds to life, Go play some ultima online and try to find classes in there.

so tiring on how WoW/everquest killed gaming by creating class style play instead of skill style play. its just more DD style now

anyways they are a class and are played differently but based on wow/everquest terms they are not classes..

Peace
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Edited, Jan 28th 2011 5:17pm by UnlovedTitan
#46 Jan 28 2011 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
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Domino7337 wrote:
I think that here is the dilemma to this issue.

First, imagine a game where only combat takes place (no crafting at all). All you get to choose from are combat classes, all there is to do is go on missions, fight things, do epic quests, etc...

Now, imagine a game where only crafting takes place (no one can fight, there's nothing to fight). You can bake, you can make armor, weapons, potions, but you can't do anything with it.

Obviously, this is a complete exaggeration, because in ffxiv, you can choose to do it all. But if you think about it, this is why most people don't consider crafting a class. The former would make a perfectly fine game, in fact, take final fantasies 1-10, 12, 13, and what i would assume to be all the side ones, and this is basically what you have, all combat no craft. It makes for a fun game. The latter on the other hand would be, to most, an utterly dreadful game. It would provide no fun, no excitement, nothing.


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#47 Jan 28 2011 at 4:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Hugus wrote:
Rinsui wrote:


at least crafters are responsible for the storyline quests being facepalm parley.

You do know that most parley are given as a choice instead of fighting?

If you dont like parlay just go ahead and fight!

Exactly! And crafters can't be blamed for the resulting battle sucking - again - the reason crap is easy is because SE confused casual with easy... heck, who knows - maybe they are not mistaken that casual = easy. I don't think so but I am a weird demographic for a gamer (full time job, female, 28 years old)



Wait until you see how lame the rank 36 (?) storyline quest plays out. Basically it's:

THEY ARE GOING TO KILL EACH OTHER!
THEY ARE RUSHING AT US!
OH GOD, THEY ARE SUMMONING INCARNATIONS OF THEIR GODS!
RUN! THE WORLD IS AT IT'S END!

...until they give you the option to walk up to those bloodthirsty enraged beasts, have
a 30-minute sip of tea and parley. ^.^/

While those who are allegedly about to kill each other wander around aimlessly.

I can already imagine a rank 75 storyline quest. Bahamut is about to scourge the world,
when you offer him a cup of softcream and parley him into postponing Armageddon at least
until the caramel sauce has arrived. How thrilling.

#48 Jan 28 2011 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
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as long as i don't have to touch a crafting class to get a maat's cap, i'll be happy.
#49 Jan 29 2011 at 5:40 AM Rating: Decent
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@ Rinsui

I Can'y be 100% sure because I didn't try myself but on that mission you should have the option to fight those beastmen, you just go up to them and engage them. Also, to my best knowledge if you fail in the parley action within the time limit then fighting if th eonly option you have as they themselves will engage you.

@ Kierk

I remember posting something either right before launch or just after in which I mentioned expecting something about the influence that DoL/H could have in fights. Mainly DoL would influence the mobs and DoH would influence the party.

BOT would decrease Def and Mag Def of any herbkin mob fighting their parties.
MIN would decrease Def and Mag Def or any earthkin mob fighting their parties
FSH would decrease Def and Mag Def of any waterkin mob fighting their patries.

ALC would increase the effectiveness of any healing done by the party
ARM would increase the Def of the whole party
BS would increase the Att of the whole party
CRP would increase the Mag Att of the whole party
CUL would increase effectivness/duration of any food bufs
GS would increase Mag Acc of the party
LW would increase DEX/AGI of party
WVR would increase Mag Def of the whole party

These are just exaples I though of in a couple mins and not much detail and tbh when the whole 15 member parties were announced I expected that was so we could fill them out with these classes. From what I read it might not be needed or even a good idea to take out a DD fr these but if fights were to increase in dificulty then this would probably be something worth it.
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#50 Jan 29 2011 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
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53 posts
Hugus wrote:
@ Rinsui

I Can'y be 100% sure because I didn't try myself but on that mission you should have the option to fight those beastmen, you just go up to them and engage them. Also, to my best knowledge if you fail in the parley action within the time limit then fighting if th eonly option you have as they themselves will engage you.

@ Kierk

I remember posting something either right before launch or just after in which I mentioned expecting something about the influence that DoL/H could have in fights. Mainly DoL would influence the mobs and DoH would influence the party.

BOT would decrease Def and Mag Def of any herbkin mob fighting their parties.
MIN would decrease Def and Mag Def or any earthkin mob fighting their parties
FSH would decrease Def and Mag Def of any waterkin mob fighting their patries.

ALC would increase the effectiveness of any healing done by the party
ARM would increase the Def of the whole party
BS would increase the Att of the whole party
CRP would increase the Mag Att of the whole party
CUL would increase effectivness/duration of any food bufs
GS would increase Mag Acc of the party
LW would increase DEX/AGI of party
WVR would increase Mag Def of the whole party

These are just exaples I though of in a couple mins and not much detail and tbh when the whole 15 member parties were announced I expected that was so we could fill them out with these classes. From what I read it might not be needed or even a good idea to take out a DD fr these but if fights were to increase in dificulty then this would probably be something worth it.



What Rinsui said wasn't about only having the option to parley through that mission, I'm sure he knows you can fight through it. The point is that it's silly that you could even parley through something like that, and it will only get worse as the story progresses and the stakes get higher. Does anyone really want to sit down and talk Bahamut out of destroying the world? It just kills immersion.

As for the rest, it's clear at some point SE had grand plans regarding DoH and DoL classes and their role in combat. However somewhere along the road, they dropped these ideas, either because they ran out of time and rushed the game, or more likely because they simply didn't work.

Increasing fight difficulty would only make it less likely for any group to invite such classes. Would you realistically invite an ALC to boost healing done over a 2nd conjurer who can spam AoE heals? Unless the boost more than doubled the healing done by a cure to make up for the fact there's only one healer, which means the cures won't come as fast...

Some of you are talking about how DoH would be useful to have in a party for repairs, except nearly everyone is complaining about the repair system and wants it either completely removed or completely overhauled. Which would only make DoH classes out in the field more pointless.

You can call them classes or side skills or professions, it really doesn't change anything. They just need to not feel the need to include every discipline in every segment of the game. Give DoW/M their own endgame, with their own rewards. Leave the main story to those classes and build the missions around combat. Give them NMs, dungeons, instances, battlefields, you name it.

And give DoH their own endgame content. It could be the Company ships/buildings, missions and quests revolving around their skills, a system of daily quests like in XI that earns you special marks you can turn in for craft specific gear/items, contests, group synthesis, etc.

Same deal with DoL, give them unique content. Could take place in a MH type of instanced area that's unique to the player. Build yourself a garden. Grow the items you specifically want to harvest. Dig your own mine you can exploit on a daily basis. Raise animals as a shepherd. Gather marks to upgrade your facilities, etc. Games like Harvest Moon are pretty popular, so there is a way to build a system that would hook players that prefer the gathering professions.

I think it would be refreshing to have the ability to switch between completely different type of classes with content aimed specifically at them, instead of going for content that absolutely needs to include everyone, despite incredibly different skill sets and abilities.

I don't want to parley my way through a fight with Bahamut, I want to kick his ***. But at the same time I want my weaving and alchemy to be useful beyond making myself gear. I just don't think including them in combat roles is the way to do so.
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#51 Jan 29 2011 at 10:39 AM Rating: Default
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2,153 posts
Thanks. You saved me a lot of time typing that out.
Rate up.

While I welcome a concept such as non-violent solutions,
the way parley is implemented is a total immersion killer.

"Hey! Let's crush some elder dragons... with cookies and lemonade."

*Shiver*

EDIT:
SE tried too much at once; FFXIV is a pile of absolutely brilliant,
but equally half-assed concepts. For now, they should cut down
a lot and get the core engine running. Or it's GAME OVER.


Edited, Jan 29th 2011 12:17pm by Rinsui
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