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Possible Changes to Class NamesFollow

#52 Feb 02 2011 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
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There is a group who does not want the change. If they simply change Pug to Monk, the closes the door on Monk as a Tier 2 job. I definately do NOT want this to happen. More jobs + more freedom/.
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#53 Feb 02 2011 at 3:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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WolfOak wrote:
There is a group who does not want the change. If they simply change Pug to Monk, the closes the door on Monk as a Tier 2 job. I definately do NOT want this to happen. More jobs + more freedom/.


This is kind of how I want it to work as well. Rather than a Gladiator being renamed "Paladin" I'd rather they add advanced jobs which are more focused and branch off from the base classes we have currently. A Gladiator could eventually become a "Paladin" or a "Ninja", a Lancer could eventually become a "Dragoon" or a "Samurai", etc.

This would open the gate for higher level content, more equipment options, more defined roles, while simultaneously leaving the classes as they are so as not to greatly irritate anyone who didn't want their Conjurer to suddenly become a Whitemage.



Edited, Feb 2nd 2011 4:25pm by WarkupoZ
#54 Feb 02 2011 at 3:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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seiferdincht wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I like thaumaturge just the way it is.

I would rather they implement "traditional" classes in addition to the ones we have instead of messing with them.

Also, they could allow classes to use multiple weapon types... just some daggers would be for gladiators and some would be for thieves. Some axes would be for MRD and some for warrior... It could be listed on the weapon. No biggie. Like... I mean we have goldsmith hammers and blacksmith hammers... doesn't seem to matter much.

Edited, Feb 2nd 2011 9:51am by Olorinus


BLM and WHM spells are already in use on both mages so how would that be possible? Also giving a BLM and WHM completely new spell sets would take away any "FF feel" they're trying to evoke wouldn't it?



Yeah, this is half the reason I don't want them messing with THM and CON... the last thing I want is to lose the versatile mage I've come to love. So far the only people I've seen who want to mess with the mages play melee. I can't think of a single person who is maining the mage classes who is asking for them to ruin the classes we have.

Advocate for them to change the classes you like to play - sure - but don't beg for them to mess up the class *I* like to play cause it is too hard for you to figure out who is healer without them wearing a white robe with triangles on the sleeve. (I know it is hard to figure out any person a wand or cane can heal... but just try a TINY bit harder)
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#55 Feb 03 2011 at 1:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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That is the problem, because it's significantly less fun playing "Guy with Sword," "Guy with Spear," and "Guy who Punches" as opposed to jobs with some sort of personality and character behind them. A Pugulist is a Monk without the more interesting abilities.


So what makes Monks more than "guys who punch" that Pugilists are lacking? Personality?

Consider, Pugilists are hand to hand fighters that fight dirty. They're bar-room brawlers, boxers, street fighters, thugs and rogues. They take cheap shots, they hit below the belt, they sucker punch, they exploit weaknesses. They're rough and tumble DD's, light on their feet and fast with their fists. Look at their abilities, yeah, a lot of them are similar to ones Monks get, but some are derived from Thief, and some are new to the class. All in all, it gives a very rougish feel to the class that has nothing to do with the austere aeseticism of Monks and the strict focus and discipline of Black Belts. Pugilist is it's own class.

Lancer is another one that can't be boiled down to "Guy with Spear." They strike hard and fast, relying on the adreniline rush of battle to carry them through. They drain hit points, haste themselves, generate TP, focus their strength behind a single blow, and do all of this from behind the defensive line. They're something of a mixture of Dragoon and Samurai.

Gladiator is really a fun job, I think. People see it as bland, but I look at it as having worlds of potential. On the surface, it's "Guy with Sword" but I think it simply has broad thematic options. As I said before, throw on Thaumaturge abilities and you have a Red Mage. Conjurer abilities and you have a Paladin. Pugilist abilities and you have a Theif. Lancer/Maurader abilities and you have a Warrior. But when looking at the job's own theme, I think this is one case where the name conjures enough images for us: Gladiators are swordsmen, pit fighters, soldiers perhaps, or street thugs. This is one place where I have to admit that the name Warrior or Fighter could easily be applied, but I think with the Armory system being what it is, Gladiator was a good choice of name.

Maurader is another good one: they're part Warrior, sure, but also have roguish elements with their dirty fighting techniques, making them part Pirate as well. You could see them as sort of a non-nordic version of the Viking: sea faring warriors who pilage and raid. Either way, they have more personality to them than "Warrior" brings to mind.

Thaumaturge and Conjurer have more personality, I feel than the names "White Mage" and "Black Mage." White Mage is basically "Cleric" with the religious trappings removed (and then reinstated through gear and abilities in FFXI). Black Mage is, of course, your Black Magician, but where as Black Magicians generally make pacts with spirits (which is more Summoner's perview), Black Mages are evokers of elemental forces. Now consider the names Thaumaturge (miracle or spell worker) and Conjurer (producer of matter and energy from thin air). In both cases you have a clear definition of what it is the class is doing: Thaumaturges cast spells through complex rituals, chants and incantations. Conjurers produce effects by channeling natural forces.

In any case, I don't agree with the notion that these jobs don't have personality. What they don't have is the gravity of 20 some-odd years of tradition behind them.

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The armory system fails on so many levels. It's tedious, illogical, and in my opinion, boring as ****. There is no sense of identity, no cool factor. Just a mish-mash of generic abilities and a lot of leveling.


I'll give you tedious. Something needs to be done about macros and job changing, ability setting, etc. But illogical? How so? If anything this system is more logical than "I'm a Corsair, so I buff party members with gambling cards and dice" or "I'm a Blue Mage, so I steal monsters abilities." The old jobs have flavor because they don't ascribe to logic in so much as the creativity of the developers. That's not to say the logic of the Armory system necessarily detracts from the flavor of the jobs, just that you haven't come to associate anything more than "guy with sword" or "guy with big axe" to these jobs, despite the various abilities, gear, and flavor text available on each. It's not what your used to, and that contributes to it being boring... for you.

I'm not sure I see where this "mish mash" of generic abilities I see everyone talking about is coming from. In FFXI, was there any real functional difference between Wild Carrot and Cure II besides aesthetics? More than say Cure and Sacrifice? I've leveled Lancer, Pugilist and Gladiator a bit, and I can honestly say while there's some obvious overlap (Provoke and Taunt), and some weaponskills are similar in function, the jobs have completely different feels to them, and I enjoy both playing straight jobs (all PUG abilities, for example on PUG), as well as mixing and matching abilities from all three. I think the problem isn't that the system is boring, but that people are looking for more solid ground to stand on as far as how to assemble their characters to perform certain roles. It takes an extra level of involvement when you have more choices to make than simply "what job am I going to set as main, and what job as sub."


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Ealdwulf wrote:
So one of the big downsides of playing PUP, and why almost everyone hates them, is that they all display the wounds of Christ?
Sephrick wrote:
I'd imagine it as descretely reaching around said person, not screaming kamehameha as I use the pld as a trampoline.
dmhlucky wrote:
the curse of good DD's is they tend to have less Defense, meaning they get high for more.
Master ketrel wrote:
Its just an emote you sick son of a *****
#56 Feb 03 2011 at 1:57 PM Rating: Decent
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GailC wrote:
Quote:
That is the problem, because it's significantly less fun playing "Guy with Sword," "Guy with Spear," and "Guy who Punches" as opposed to jobs with some sort of personality and character behind them. A Pugulist is a Monk without the more interesting abilities.


So what makes Monks more than "guys who punch" that Pugilists are lacking? Personality?



I think they should have had a class that dual wields and has 1/2 the pug abilities + more assassin type action, and another that uses hand to hand weapons with more fighter type stuff. Pugilist as a whole just doesn't make much sense to me. Monk/Fighter and Thief/Rogue/Assassin types should be split into two very different spectrum imo.

* I actually love the idea of assassins with Katars and Claws and the like, Pug just doesn't feel anything like it.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2011 2:59pm by Transmigration

Edited, Feb 3rd 2011 3:00pm by Transmigration
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Eithne Draocht
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#57 Feb 03 2011 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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Pugilist as a whole just doesn't make much sense to me.


Fast attacks and dual wielding (cesti, knuckles, katars), perfect for an evasion-based class with high DPS but low potential for spike damage.

It makes perfect sense.
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#58 Feb 04 2011 at 6:07 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I think they should have had a class that dual wields and has 1/2 the pug abilities + more assassin type action, and another that uses hand to hand weapons with more fighter type stuff. Pugilist as a whole just doesn't make much sense to me.


I think a roguish assassin type would be a rather cool job. There needs to be more stealth action in this game (and not in the form of Sneak and Invisible spells that wear off at random intervals, I'm thinking more like a job ability like Spectral Jig, but without the Riverdance).

As for Pugilist, The beauty of the Armory System is that you can play them as a monk if you want to by adding different abilities. PUG's don't really focus or meditate, it's not their style. But if you added abilities like Still Precision and Invigorate, that could make them more like Martial Artists than Brawlers.
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Ealdwulf wrote:
So one of the big downsides of playing PUP, and why almost everyone hates them, is that they all display the wounds of Christ?
Sephrick wrote:
I'd imagine it as descretely reaching around said person, not screaming kamehameha as I use the pld as a trampoline.
dmhlucky wrote:
the curse of good DD's is they tend to have less Defense, meaning they get high for more.
Master ketrel wrote:
Its just an emote you sick son of a *****
#59 Feb 04 2011 at 9:10 AM Rating: Default
10 posts
Not only should they change the class names they should split up Conj into Black and White mages cause I find it stupid they mixed the two without it being a Scholar.
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#60 Feb 04 2011 at 2:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Not only should they change the class names they should split up Conj into Black and White mages cause I find it stupid they mixed the two without it being a Scholar.


The point I've been trying to get across is that Conjurer isn't White Mage, or Black Mage, or Scholar. It's a job that combines elements of White Mage and Black Mage, much in the same way that Pupetmaster was a combination of Mime and Engeneer. It takes elements of two classes but adds it's own flavor to the mix.

Yeah, you could split the job up into White or Black Mage... or you could spec your Conjurer toward elemental attack magic or toward healing. You could throw in Thaumaturge spells to better focus.

I don't understand the mentality that says "please, SE, take my choices away, make me play the game a certain way." I suppose it's that people expect SE to make the game the way they like it. Back when I played FFXI, people were constantly begging and cajoling for SE to give Paladin's their own Provoke, or give Warriors better defensive power (guilty as charged), or give Dark Knights better magic, or give Red Mages better melee power. The reason was that people wanted choices in the way they played their characters.

Now that we have those choices, I see so many people wanting to go back to strictly defined class roles that corral players into certain play styles, when those play styles are essentially already implemented, it just depends on how you spec. The real problem here is that without a really compelling reason to party, the traditional party dynamics haven't materialized.

A lot of people think that changing the jobs to have more defined roles will create party dynamics. That might work, but I think it's kind of a backwards way of fixing the problem. It would be better to give players content that requires team coordination and strict roles (rather than just zerging with more damage). Then players would be forced to specialize and focus their contributions to the party using the tools already available.

Yeah, I think more definition to the jobs is a good idea too (things like Speed Surge, which are only active on Lacer), but not at the expense of the options we already have. Build the system up, don't tear it down and rebuild it in the image of Final Fantasy games of the past.

People would still find stuff to ***** about ;)
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Ealdwulf wrote:
So one of the big downsides of playing PUP, and why almost everyone hates them, is that they all display the wounds of Christ?
Sephrick wrote:
I'd imagine it as descretely reaching around said person, not screaming kamehameha as I use the pld as a trampoline.
dmhlucky wrote:
the curse of good DD's is they tend to have less Defense, meaning they get high for more.
Master ketrel wrote:
Its just an emote you sick son of a *****
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