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Self-sufficiency and the futureFollow

#1 Feb 03 2011 at 6:02 AM Rating: Good
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Just wondering what people think will happen as more and more players get crafts to max level (obviously this isn't something in the immediate-short term). I can imagine that a year from now there'll be an increasing people with all crafts at a high level, which could hurt trading as there's no reliance on others to make items when everyone can do it themselves. Do you think we can expect to see specialisations in certain trades, particularly as ranks continue to go up beyond 50?

Not really something i think is a major issue and might be totally irrelevant by the time companies roll around depending on the kind of input they have, was just curious to see what people thought?
#2 Feb 03 2011 at 7:11 AM Rating: Decent
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I can see what your saying. If everyone can do everything then what is the need for anyone besides yourself.

The specialization thing is a good idea, but comes with some inherent problems. Either spec A is superior to spec B and therefore no one takes spec B, or both specs are pretty worthless and there is no point in them.

There may be more problems but those are the 2 that come to mind. I am all for more uniqueness in our characters, but it has to be done in a balanced and meaningful way.

Some possibilities are:
Armorsmith - Plate armor: Makes crafting plate armor easier.

This would give armorsmiths the ability to make plate armor cheaper and safer, leading to more higher quality armor in the world. This can be adapted to fit pretty much any of the crafting jobs.

You could make certain items exclusive to a job but that starts to tread near the first problem I outlined.

I may think of more and anyone else is welcome to add to that list.

Xandos
#3 Feb 03 2011 at 7:19 AM Rating: Decent
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I am leveling every craft(besides worthless cooking) right now, they are all 21+ My goal is to level my crafts(all 7 of them) as a group. In a perfect world my fighting classes would never level fast enough to wear gear that I cant repair. Currently I can repair everything I wear.
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#4 Feb 03 2011 at 8:03 AM Rating: Good
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I think the answer would lie in SE making more crafting classes and tacking on more ranks with each xpac. It would take alot of time for a person to rank up all crafting classes to max rank, not to mention the immense amount of bag space someone would need for repair mats alone.

Self-sufficiency is highly ideal, in theory, but a tremendous undertaking in the end. Not to mention completely shutting yourself out of the battling spectrum of the game. (You just won't have the bag space or the time to commit to it.)
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#5 Feb 03 2011 at 8:19 AM Rating: Decent
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I think the system sounds good on paper, but really....

Making nearly every item in the game craftable is a bad idea.
Letting everyone rank up every type of craft up to the cap is a bad idea.
Super easy accessibility of almost all crafting materials is a bad idea.

All put together it's a recipe for disaster in the long run. The whole economy will end up crumpling on itself as time goes on and more people raise their DoH classes.

As much as people love crafting, it's impossible to ignore how big of an issue it'll be in not that long from now. **** if the game had been solid from the start, we'd already be seeing loads of people at rank 50s in multiple crafts I bet.

I don't think a simple specialization would be enough. I think it goes back to DoH being classes, which means you can't really limit them to 1 up to level cap per character. They need to find a way to slow the leveling of those classes (create bottlenecks with rarer/harder to obtain/more expensive materials?) --> They need to get massive amounts of gil out of the system. And they need to somehow make it so people end up favoring 1 craft over the others, and not let them all be equally useful to everyone. I'm not sure how to do this, but a simple specialization that slightly favors one type of armor over another will not be enough.

Anyway that's my opinion, but I don't think anyone can realistically say the economy will be fine if things are kept this way in the long run.
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#6 Feb 03 2011 at 8:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I think SE should stop giving out mats for local leves, since some people will just do the leve to get the item they need instead of going to the wards or offer rarer items in the leves, something you can't find in the field. Also limiting how many crafting jobs you can have to 3 or 4 would have probably help too.
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#7 Feb 03 2011 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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i do not think there will be an issue with to many people maxing out every craft. i think there will be a good balance since if to many people do it then the profit/advantage goes away therefore deterring others from doing it and the people that don't see it as a benefit will be supporting those that do. it is just like anything else if effort/time does not equal or exceed profit/benefit then it is not worth it so it should stay balanced no madder what. it may end up to a point that people only get items from their LS and not the AH or wards but materials will still be bought/sold.
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#8 Feb 03 2011 at 8:58 AM Rating: Good
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In order for a crafter to be completely self-sufficient, not only would you have to rank up every DoH class, but every DoL class as well. Looks good in theory, but it would be improbable to accomplish, within a reasonable amount of time.

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#9 Feb 03 2011 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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elevencharle wrote:
i do not think there will be an issue with to many people maxing out every craft. i think there will be a good balance since if to many people do it then the profit/advantage goes away therefore deterring others from doing it and the people that don't see it as a benefit will be supporting those that do. it is just like anything else if effort/time does not equal or exceed profit/benefit then it is not worth it so it should stay balanced no madder what. it may end up to a point that people only get items from their LS and not the AH or wards but materials will still be bought/sold.


There will always be the benefit of "doing it yourself". People are individualistic and don't want to rely on others. They want to do it themselves. Almost everyone currently playing is already working on 2 or 3 crafts at least. Half my linkshell was working on those almost exclusively, because they want to level up in gear they made themselves, and be self-sufficient on repairs.

So a year down the road when there's a ton of rank 50s, basically all the new players who join the game will see it as pointless to level up crafts outside of repairing their gear... and that's if SE doesn't change how repairs work. I don't think deterring new players from half the classes in the game because they're a bit late to the party is good game design.
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#10 Feb 03 2011 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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Bruknarr wrote:
elevencharle wrote:
i do not think there will be an issue with to many people maxing out every craft. i think there will be a good balance since if to many people do it then the profit/advantage goes away therefore deterring others from doing it and the people that don't see it as a benefit will be supporting those that do. it is just like anything else if effort/time does not equal or exceed profit/benefit then it is not worth it so it should stay balanced no madder what. it may end up to a point that people only get items from their LS and not the AH or wards but materials will still be bought/sold.


There will always be the benefit of "doing it yourself". People are individualistic and don't want to rely on others. They want to do it themselves. Almost everyone currently playing is already working on 2 or 3 crafts at least. Half my linkshell was working on those almost exclusively, because they want to level up in gear they made themselves, and be self-sufficient on repairs.

So a year down the road when there's a ton of rank 50s, basically all the new players who join the game will see it as pointless to level up crafts outside of repairing their gear... and that's if SE doesn't change how repairs work. I don't think deterring new players from half the classes in the game because they're a bit late to the party is good game design.


This is a bold assumption. Deterring new players? Leveling crafts still grants significant increase in Physical rank (with 8 more available leves per reset) and boosts gils income (it will matter one day).

Also, I think it would actually be a good thing to be able to play only fighting classes and to be able to take care of other stuff with gils alone, if that is the way you want to play. Eventually there will be enough content to allow that.
#11 Feb 03 2011 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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This is absolutely NOT a concern.

Even if I had every DoH and DoL class maxed out I would still buy the majority of my gear. I'm sorry, but when I'm logging on each day enjoying doing end game content (raids, NMs and such) I am not going to want to spend my evening play time mining ores, havesting grass, cutting wood, crafting lumber, farming hides, tanning leather, refining nuggets and ingots, weaving cloth, pounding out sheets of metal, wire, rings, cutting straps, forging buckles and grips, pounding out blades and lids, and.... the list goes on and on and on.

I'm just going to search for the items I need, and buy them and get back to playing the game. There will always be LOTs of players with this attitude.
#12 Feb 03 2011 at 10:28 AM Rating: Good
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Dlaqev wrote:
I can imagine that a year from now there'll be an increasing people with all crafts at a high level, which could hurt trading as there's no reliance on others to make items when everyone can do it themselves. Do you think we can expect to see specialisations in certain trades?


Do I think we can expect them? No, because nothing has been mentioned even remotely close to such a concern.

Do I think it's a good idea? Very much so; it regulates supply and demand, and ensures that there are many different avenues for people to enter the market. FFXI knew this, WoW knew this, and they limit their crafts accordingly.
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#13 Feb 03 2011 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
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elevencharle wrote:
i do not think there will be an issue with to many people maxing out every craft.


Says the man leveling every single craft in the game.

(I think you just want to act like nobody does this... and then catch the market by surprise!)
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#14 Feb 03 2011 at 10:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Mithsavvy wrote:
This is absolutely NOT a concern.

Even if I had every DoH and DoL class maxed out I would still buy the majority of my gear. I'm sorry, but when I'm logging on each day enjoying doing end game content (raids, NMs and such) I am not going to want to spend my evening play time mining ores, havesting grass, cutting wood, crafting lumber, farming hides, tanning leather, refining nuggets and ingots, weaving cloth, pounding out sheets of metal, wire, rings, cutting straps, forging buckles and grips, pounding out blades and lids, and.... the list goes on and on and on.

I'm just going to search for the items I need, and buy them and get back to playing the game. There will always be LOTs of players with this attitude.


It might not be a concern for you, but I'm sure 95% of people who will spend hundred of hours leveling DoH classes WILL want to put them to use. I think you're in the minority here. Any serious crafter will have gathered large stocks of the common crafting components, making putting together gear very easy. And it only highlights another problem. There's WAY too much gil in the game right now. People have been amassing together fortunes for nearly 5 months now, with nothing at all to spend it on and remove it from the economy. It's hard to predict what will happen to the market, tons of supplies offered, but so much gil available to be spent, the prices might go up regardless of supply/demand. And since all that gil is essentially just shifting hands right now, it'll be tough to stabilize till gil is taken out of the economy.


@northernsky

That didn't really come out right, it was mostly in answer to elevencharle's claim about it balancing out and deterring people from leveling too many DoH classes, making it sound like its a good thing. I don't think Physical Level is much of an issue though, it will level up faster than your classes regardless of which path you take because of the need to level multiple classes. I have nothing against people choosing to level DoW/M exclusively. I just think picking up a new game and seeing half the classes are saturated to the point of making them useless is a bit of a turn off for a new player. From my understanding leves are already how most people make the most of their money anyway.
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#15 Feb 03 2011 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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They'd be smart to make you choose at some point, but we'll just have to hope they realize this. Most of the players I know that have five or six crafts at 35+ now have botted most or all of it - I'd imagine this isn't unusual on a broad scale, if you extrapolated this to everyone who meets that criteria. So in addition to keeping the economy healthy, you'd combat what is currently most easily botted.
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#16 Feb 03 2011 at 10:57 AM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
elevencharle wrote:
i do not think there will be an issue with to many people maxing out every craft.


Says the man leveling every single craft in the game.

(I think you just want to act like nobody does this... and then catch the market by surprise!)



haha. but no i just have lots if free time and enjoy sitting back and crafting is all. if they make it take 2 years to max out 1 craft or 1 day i will still always work on all that i can.
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#17 Feb 03 2011 at 11:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think everyone would level all crafts. Crafting bores me to tears and I have limited playtime. But I will level cooking and alchemy because I get free materials from fishing. Cooking is also a necessary evil to make fish bait.

Edited to add: If more people made fish bait, I sure as heck would rather buy it than make it.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2011 12:05pm by FiskStillman
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#18 Feb 03 2011 at 11:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Self-sufficiency is a myth. To be truly self-sufficient, you would have to level every single DoH and DoL. They are all brilliantly interconnected. It's a pretty impressive system in a horrible and all-consuming way. Anyone genuinely concerned about people earning Maat's cap already has no idea just how much of a time sink ranking up DoH and DoL is.

I decided back in early November that I wanted to be able to repair my gear for my 25CON and 30THM. In an effort to simply "repair my own gear" not to be "self-sufficient", I had to level the following:

~ 22WVR (to repair canvas gear reliably);
~ 21CRP (to repair my CON wands);
~ 22GSM (to repair my THM scepters);
~ 20BSM (to repair my own tools for the various DoH and DoL jobs I've now leveled);
~ 22ALC (to break crystals into shards and turn fish into shards because you need an absurd amount of shards for all DoH);
~ 18MIN (you need a lot of ores to level up GSM and BSM)
~ 18BOT (you need a lot of wood to level up CRP);
~ 14FSH (fish turn into shards / crystals if you can tolerate this horrible boring grind of a job)

Needless to say, I haven't played my CON or my THM since November as I've been too busy leveling the aforementioned DoH and DoL jobs. I had to level all of these jobs just to repair my own sh*t, not make everything I need.
#19 Feb 03 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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yeah it takes way too much time... there will probably be a few people who are utterly self sufficient but I don't worry about it - especially since 50 isn't going to be cap forever. Maybe some people will get 2 or 3 or even 4 crafts to 50 before they raise the cap... but that person is prolly not going to even take all THOSE crafts to say 75. I just don't see it happening.

The actual process of crafting was way faster in XI. Gathering the money to do it took time but crafting itself was fast. In XIV it takes time just for the animations/mini game - and ask a goldsmith how easy it is to get materials to rank up on post 40.
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#20 Feb 03 2011 at 12:17 PM Rating: Default
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I'd think it'd be too much work to make every single thing yourself... not to mention get all the mats.
#21 Feb 03 2011 at 6:14 PM Rating: Decent
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22+ in all 7 of the important crafting classes(everything but cooking). I will easily get them all to 40(the level that lets me repair all my own gear) if I choose to. I have played the game MAYBE a totla of 2 months and manage my inventory to hold tools for all fighting classes and all crafting classes and still have room (including retainers) for mats so give me a reason why I cant level everything easily. Its not like its hard spamming standard while I watch a movie.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2011 7:15pm by UncleRuckusForLife
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#22 Feb 03 2011 at 6:21 PM Rating: Good
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come back to me when you are on silver/electrum for goldsmith...

the biggest issue is GETTING the mats you need to rank up. I don't think it is crazy to expect that when the cap is raised a lot of the stuff to rank up with will become even harder to get.

Also getting to 20 is easycake. IMO you start seeing crafting jobs require more expensive/rare mats for level grinding post 25. I mean - ALC was SUPER EASY to get to 25 but at 30 getting desirable stuff to synth down is not very easy... I mean I don't have much problem but I've also got fisher leveled reasonably high and I don't really grind my crafts.
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#23 Feb 03 2011 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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to be clear I don't think it is impossible - I just think that as the time sink grows exponentially - it will take a really long time to cap all the crafts. It isn't like the crafting itself is hard - it IS time consuming though - and getting the mats/money for mats even more so

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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#24AmsaimSutavarg, Posted: Feb 03 2011 at 6:25 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I have the perfect answer! Delete all the crafting jobs and make a static market where only consumables can be bought from NPCs at reasonable prices. Nothing else is buyable. Everything else is ra/ex and gained through quests and endgame. But thats just me......
#25 Feb 03 2011 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
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thejones wrote:
I decided back in early November that I wanted to be able to repair my gear for my 25CON and 30THM. In an effort to simply "repair my own gear" not to be "self-sufficient", I had to level the following:

~ 22WVR (to repair canvas gear reliably);
~ 21CRP (to repair my CON wands);
~ 22GSM (to repair my THM scepters);
~ 20BSM (to repair my own tools for the various DoH and DoL jobs I've now leveled);
~ 22ALC (to break crystals into shards and turn fish into shards because you need an absurd amount of shards for all DoH);
~ 18MIN (you need a lot of ores to level up GSM and BSM)
~ 18BOT (you need a lot of wood to level up CRP);
~ 14FSH (fish turn into shards / crystals if you can tolerate this horrible boring grind of a job)

Hmm.
Out of those, let's see what my Cloe had leveled, it's been so long...

Weaver 33, Carpenter 20, Goldsmith 30, Blacksmith 22, Alchemy 24, Mining 21, Botany 17 and no fishing.

I guess my checklist was similar to yours.
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#26 Feb 03 2011 at 7:45 PM Rating: Excellent
I don't think some people realize the time investment once you get around rank 30. Plus the reason you see them as high as they are now is the general lack of content you see being brought up every other minute. When there are finally some more quests/missions/larger scale instanced combats missions (for loot)/more NM's you will only see the truly dedicated crafting with the fervor you see around you now. I'm focusing on crafting and gathering now as I know when the fun stuff comes around I'm gonna be far less likely to use my limited playtime making sure I get in all 8 crafting leves and maybe spam out a few easy synths.

So long term I fail to see a world where everyone will have all the crafts leveled. (or even most)
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#27 Feb 03 2011 at 8:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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The way I understand it, leveling a craft from 30 to 50 will make you realize that you are NOT going to level all classes to 50.

Can someone who has a craft to 50 estimate the amount of time it took in hours to get there? 500 hours? more?

I think when you multiply this amount of hours by the 8 crafts available (even minus Culinarian) you will realize that is not a probable, for most not possible goal.
#28 Feb 03 2011 at 8:52 PM Rating: Good
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UncleRuckusForLife wrote:
22+ in all 7 of the important crafting classes(everything but cooking). I will easily get them all to 40(the level that lets me repair all my own gear) if I choose to. I have played the game MAYBE a totla of 2 months and manage my inventory to hold tools for all fighting classes and all crafting classes and still have room (including retainers) for mats so give me a reason why I cant level everything easily. Its not like its hard spamming standard while I watch a movie.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2011 7:15pm by UncleRuckusForLife


You're under the impression that it's easy to grind to r50 craft. Before the Feb patch, raising my Goldsmith from r36 to 46 took twice as much as raising from r1-36. That with me having access to material, shards, gears, training and advanced abilities.
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#29 Feb 03 2011 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Khornette wrote:
UncleRuckusForLife wrote:
22+ in all 7 of the important crafting classes(everything but cooking). I will easily get them all to 40(the level that lets me repair all my own gear) if I choose to. I have played the game MAYBE a totla of 2 months and manage my inventory to hold tools for all fighting classes and all crafting classes and still have room (including retainers) for mats so give me a reason why I cant level everything easily. Its not like its hard spamming standard while I watch a movie.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2011 7:15pm by UncleRuckusForLife


You're under the impression that it's easy to grind to r50 craft. Before the Feb patch, raising my Goldsmith from r36 to 46 took twice as much as raising from r1-36. That with me having access to material, shards, gears, training and advanced abilities.


Reread my post I am only interested in getting them all to 40 right now so I can repair all gear 1-50 atleast regular quality. You also mention you did the leveling before the SP boost in the last update. I am seeing way more SP when crafting than I used to.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2011 10:06pm by UncleRuckusForLife
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#30 Feb 03 2011 at 9:11 PM Rating: Good
RufuSwho wrote:
The way I understand it, leveling a craft from 30 to 50 will make you realize that you are NOT going to level all classes to 50.

Can someone who has a craft to 50 estimate the amount of time it took in hours to get there? 500 hours? more?

I think when you multiply this amount of hours by the 8 crafts available (even minus Culinarian) you will realize that is not a probable, for most not possible goal.


One of my LS mates had i think Blacksmith and gladiator at 50, plus armorer at 47 and a few others in the 30s when he went on break last month. I bet some people will have everything capped by mid-summer.
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#31 Feb 03 2011 at 10:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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The path from 45 to 50 for crafts will still be tough because unlike mobs, the receipes cap at 50 atm, with most lvl50 receipes having exotic materials.

It's easier now and less painful but... May still take 1 to 2 months for some crafts during the final 5 levels

I like the system better now though as I can level as many jobs to combine as I like easily, Dom. Dol, Dow, doh.

I personally hope...

: each craft will have consumables to sell as the server saturates with end products ( repair packs?, timered equipment buffs/enchantments? )

: more exotic material drops for dow, Dom to increase trade

: challenging way to gather materials ( mazes and trap dungeons) instead of relying on chance on drop

: larger role for battle regimen and decapitation in battles
#32 Feb 04 2011 at 5:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think many people rank up DoH to make stuff to sell.
Most do it to be able to repair the gear, weapons and tools they use.

But as some already said, it doesn't really matter because it's a long way to get every craft to 50. Time that is taken from other activities like doing DoL and DoW. DoL and DoW are needed though to get the materials and shards for crafting.
All in all, I don't think it matters if people take every craft to 50.
If all players had every DoH at 50 nobody would buy crafted stuff anymore (extreme example) but at the same time nobody would need anything anymore => it doesn't matter.

I think the current system is pretty good. Not perfect, but good enough to build upon.
There is alot they can do with group crafting and companies. Like building airships or maybe even (mog)houses built by players, although there is not much space for them in the shroud...

However. The only way to keep the need for DoH high is to give them consumable items (like food, potions, ammo,...) to make that are in constant demand.
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#33 Feb 04 2011 at 5:31 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I don't think many people rank up DoH to make stuff to sell.
Most do it to be able to repair the gear, weapons and tools they use.


It makes me wonder; why don't people buy multiples of the same weapon/armor they use? Equipment costs very little these days compared to how much money we can obtain, so it shouldn't be an issue to most people.

If the multiple weapons last you through one playing session, you can just set up your retainer to repair said equipment over-night.
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#34 Feb 05 2011 at 12:52 AM Rating: Good
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I see two huge problems:

1) The lack of a money sink. Since almost the entire economy is player-based, there is no where for the money to go. It is just changing hands and fortunes are growing at the same rate as the prices. New money is added through leves, but almost none is taken away since there are no transaction costs and nothing to spend it on that isn't supplied by players. The problem is enlarged with the DoH system that encourages everyone to level every form of crafting and gathering prof, which in also linked to the lack of an AH for trading. FF needs an auction and some money sinks. With an auction, there would be less need to level every singly prof yourself.

Example of money sinks: buying mounts (these could be really expensive) and upgrades / variants for mounts (rare mounts could be insanely expensive), other travelling costs (maybe slowing the rate of anima regen and making it possible to buy it), private houses with furniture and gardens... I also have a vision of the retainer system working alongside an AH in connection with NPC vendors - imagine, instead of putting your stuff up at the AH, give it to your retainer, who sells it to specialized NPC vendors, and the NPC vendors travel to the cities and set up shop, to sell the items to players for a portion of the profit. One such NPC vendor could specialize in armor and do a sweep of the armor wards, gathering up armor for sale of appropriate types and then travel out into the open world to sell it. This would add a lot of life to the regular non-instanced world, while maintaining some connection to a player-based economy - if no one crafs and sells an item, it does not end up for sale at NPC vendors. I think that players as suppliers for NPC vendors through their retainers is a very interesting idea to complement an AH and create a small but regular money sink.

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#35 Feb 05 2011 at 12:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think SE is making money not as important because people don't like grinding money so they will go to RMT for it. Why not just make epic mounts (or w/e) a quest that takes a long time? That way RMT can't sell the results. SE has just learned that if you make money itself a desirable thing in game - it is so easy to trade for real money.

The real time sink should be in things that can't be traded easily/directly. That's how THE GAME THAT SHALL NOT BE NAMED has trivialized in game currency selling, I think. (But I could be wrong)

I haven't really noticed the price of things going up or whatever much

also being a cul, I buy a lot of annoying niggly things from npc. tbh an ah might lead to even less of a money sink because I may not buy cooking stuff from npc as much (for example) cause people don't like selling it now
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