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#102antshock30, Posted: Feb 07 2011 at 1:43 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This post is great! I want to give a hand to the op for pointing out the die hard gamers that won't just put there hands up and say enough SE I am done feeding you on this waste of a game. What die hards don't realize is this game is at least 1year from a launch base mmo. If you have tested any of the next gen games then you already know that Se is way behind the curve. Se cut your losses due the honorable thing and stop making ppl pay for this game,get back to the drawing room and come out with one of the best games to date.Use this as a learning exp SE and finally put a jump function in so that it doesn't take characters 20mins to walk somewhere or climb down a hillside.
#103 Feb 07 2011 at 4:58 PM Rating: Good
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TheRealDestian wrote:
So you START by saying that FFXIV is the best MMO on the market and that EVERY other MMO is worse than it is...

At some point, you have to acknowledge when the NUMBERS, I mean cold, hard impartial DATA, do not support your claims.

So we are treating opinions as facts now? What part of the word "subjective" do you not comprehend?

Quote:
1.
existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective).
2.
pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation.
3.
placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric.


You might think your opinion is a fact, but some us aren't that retarded. So again, please don't take my posts out of context, it doesn't count as an argument. Both the post you quoted and the reply to it spelled this out for you. No matter how much of a trolling douche you are, I'm still entitled to my opinion, and yes, I find FFXIV to be more fun than the other mmo's on the market.

TheRealDestian wrote:

WoW has 5,000,000 people still playing it. Other MMOs, while not having met with the same success, have still sustained a strong enough playerbase to keep them running.

Alright, so by your logic, all movies, books, games, and everything else in the world that isn't the most popular thing in it's genre, is bad, and the people (or "fleas") who think they like other things are just blatantly wrong... That sounds like a pretty deluded mentality to have imo.

And FYI, Maplestory, according to it's wiki page, has over 100,000,000 players worldwide. Well gee, with cold hard numbers like that, why do people even bother attempting to make other games? Even WoW has a pittance worth of players compared to that. Oh, that's right... Because it's a matter of opinion, and some people, such as myself, don't like that game.

TheRealDestian wrote:

There is no denying that FFXIV has potential, but to say that it's MORE fun and by logical conclusion a superior game experience to EVERY other MMO out there?

Saying I find it to be more fun is not, by logical conclusion, the same as saying it's a superior game experience to every other MMO out there. It just means that I personally enjoy it more than the others. If you're going to go with preschool logic, you should stick to preschool terminology to fit it. You can dress a monkey in a monocle and tophat, but throwing heaps of sh*t still won't constitute a good argument.

TheRealDestian wrote:

You can't call a game better than every other game on the market and then go on to expect your criticism to be valid, mainly because a lot of the "criticism" you put forth in suggesting improvements to FFXIV are inevitably going to be improvements that already exist in the hundreds of other games you just slighted.

First of all, yes I can. Hopefully the several points I've made about opinions being subjective have started to sink in by now, and I won't have to address this again. Secondly, sure, some other games I don't like do some things right, but not enough for me to enjoy them more than FFXIV. Does that make me a flea, fanboy, white knight, etc? Well, to me, it's just a matter of playing games I enjoy as a hobby. Sounds like you're the one rallying to some cause over this... Now isn't that a bit of irony...

TheRealDestian wrote:

There is nowhere else to go, unless you retract your previous statement about FFXIV being the best MMO ever at launch, at which point I apologize for citing you as an example.

Right, because I'm not allowed to have a different opinion than you on a subjective matter.

TheRealDestian wrote:

Also, you don't see me slinging names like "douchebag" around...

You made up a new derogatory term that doesn't apply to me and labeled me with it via one of my posts, and then ranted on for a good while about how bad people who fit that term are. So I used an existing term that actually did apply to you in my response. Sure, I could have played your game, labeled you as a sh*t gobbling cockroach as opposed to a blood sucking flea, and then typed a big long spiel connoting the term to all of the negative troll-like tendencies you've displayed... But I think douchebag works equally well.

TheRealDestian wrote:

No, this is me hoping to make a few people wake up and realize that there's no basis for taking personal offense to criticism aimed at something they had no hand in creating.

At no point did I take any offense towards any of the things you don't like about FFXIV. It was the personal attacks, warped delusional self justification, condescending tone, and general douchebaginess that I took offense to.

To put it simply, it's been a long time since I've seen anyone lose an argument as thoroughly as you. I got a laugh out of it, sure, but I'm not going to keep going around in circles when you clearly can't even grasp basic arguments. If you did, you never would have used my post to begin with, because I refuted your assumption about my stance in that very post. Almost everyone else on this board is capable of understanding what opinions are and how they work... I don't see why you struggle so much with that concept. Normally I'd assume someone who can write as well as yourself wouldn't have so much trouble with something so simple, but I guess that's what I get for making assumptions.

There's nowhere else to go with this now, but hopefully you learn something and refrain from posting such nonsensical drivel again. But if you do, which you probably will, I'd thank you to leave me out of it.

Edited, Feb 7th 2011 6:01pm by Tiger228
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#104 Feb 07 2011 at 5:07 PM Rating: Good
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Tiger, I think I love you. You somehow managed to refute their post completely and proved that they are completely wrong and biased without resorting to any of the questionable tactics and logical fallacies that they used.

/hug


Now that that is out of the way, can we try to keep it civil here?
#105 Feb 07 2011 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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You can dress a monkey in a monocle and tophat, but throwing heaps of sh*t still won't constitute a good argument.

..or a good game.
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#106 Feb 07 2011 at 5:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Ummm can an admin seriously take a look at this thread...and possibly think about locking it...i mean really...
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#107 Feb 07 2011 at 9:36 PM Rating: Default
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Tiger228 wrote:
So we are treating opinions as facts now? What part of the word "subjective" do you not comprehend?


Your exact words were:

Seriously, if SE's flops are better than the biggest and most popular mmo's on day 1, then wtf.

YOU were the one who said FFXIV was BETTER than the biggest and most popular MMOs on day 1...and now you're backpedaling into "it's all subjective"?

Retreating to "subjective means that all opinions are valid!" means that there's never any point to arguing anything ever because EVERYTHING could be defined as subjective. There are people out there whose idea of a good time is getting the crap beaten out of them.

At some point, you have to stop hiding behind the concept of subjectivity and make a hardline stand on the fact that, yes, some things aren't very good.

Quote:
I'm still entitled to my opinion, and yes, I find FFXIV to be more fun than the other mmo's on the market.


And your "opinion" immediately means that you are not to be listened to for even one scrap of constructive criticism regarding this game.

Do you think Yoshi-P took up the reigns of this game and said to himself, "This game is better than the biggest and most popular mmo's out there!"? Of course he didn't. He's seen the review scores, we all have (especially Wada), and clearly Wada decided that he agreed: the game deserved its 4.0 review scores, which places it in a list decidedly worse than WoW, Aion and many other MMOs (****, MOST other MMOs).

Quote:
Alright, so by your logic, all movies, books, games, and everything else in the world that isn't the most popular thing in it's genre, is bad, and the people (or "fleas") who think they like other things are just blatantly wrong... That sounds like a pretty deluded mentality to have imo.


By my logic, Square wants to make M-O-N-E-Y, and they're not going to do that with a game that fails to bring in those good numbers.

I don't personally agree with it (if we went by numbers alone, it would mean that Justin Bieber is the best singer ever), but at a certain point, salability overrides your personal opinion (and mine).

Bottom line is this: you called this game the best MMO on the market (you did, don't be backpedaling now) and you said it was like that from day ONE (before the interface fixes, even). Thus, if you think what you think and Wada thinks differently, your opinion is of little use to him or Yoshi-P...unless you're saying that this is the best game ever but that additions to it would make it so good that every moment spent playing it would be utter ecstasy.

Do you HONESTLY feel that way, or were you exaggerating for the sake of liking the game? If you were exaggerating, you can just say so. I exaggerate sometimes, too. I won't hold it against you.

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And FYI, Maplestory, according to it's wiki page, has over 100,000,000 players worldwide. Well gee, with cold hard numbers like that, why do people even bother attempting to make other games? Even WoW has a pittance worth of players compared to that. Oh, that's right... Because it's a matter of opinion, and some people, such as myself, don't like that game.


Maplestory is free to play. The people playing WoW are paying $15 a month to do so. This is a colossal difference. ($75 million dollars a month difference, in fact).

Quote:
Saying I find it to be more fun is not, by logical conclusion, the same as saying it's a superior game experience to every other MMO out there. It just means that I personally enjoy it more than the others. If you're going to go with preschool logic, you should stick to preschool terminology to fit it. You can dress a monkey in a monocle and tophat, but throwing heaps of sh*t still won't constitute a good argument.


1. You did say "Seriously, if SE's flops are better than the biggest and most popular mmo's on day 1, then wtf." That's not "more fun to me". That's calling it "better" than the biggest MMOs on the market, which is a pretty bold statement.

2. The only logic necessary here is economics logic, which dictates that SE wants to make the game in such a way that people will pay to play it.

Quote:
First of all, yes I can. Hopefully the several points I've made about opinions being subjective have started to sink in by now, and I won't have to address this again. Secondly, sure, some other games I don't like do some things right, but not enough for me to enjoy them more than FFXIV. Does that make me a flea, fanboy, white knight, etc? Well, to me, it's just a matter of playing games I enjoy as a hobby. Sounds like you're the one rallying to some cause over this... Now isn't that a bit of irony...


And hopefully you'll realize that arguing things subjectively has no place here when SE OBJECTIVELY needs to make money from this game. If you think the game is this great the way it is, that's fine. However, SE thinks the game is so bad right now that they're not charging players to play it. Does that not speak volumes about how they "subjectively" see the game right now?

Quote:
Right, because I'm not allowed to have a different opinion than you on a subjective matter.


You're allowed to have whatever opinion you want, but that doesn't mean that people won't critique that opinion or outright dismiss it when it's clear that SE itself disagrees. Clearly, if they thought it was the best MMO out there, they wouldn't have flung Yoshi-P into the driver's seat and said "SAVE IT!!!"

Quote:
You made up a new derogatory term that doesn't apply to me and labeled me with it via one of my posts, and then ranted on for a good while about how bad people who fit that term are. So I used an existing term that actually did apply to you in my response. Sure, I could have played your game, labeled you as a sh*t gobbling cockroach as opposed to a blood sucking flea, and then typed a big long spiel connoting the term to all of the negative troll-like tendencies you've displayed... But I think douchebag works equally well.


The difference is that you call me a "douchebag" to express your angst toward me for offending you. I call you a "flea" in the hopes of getting you to change your ways.

I admit that I never should've caved to the request to post evidence (especially because the person who wanted evidence didn't even see it as evidence, which I suspected would happen).

Quote:
At no point did I take any offense towards any of the things you don't like about FFXIV. It was the personal attacks, warped delusional self justification, condescending tone, and general douchebaginess that I took offense to.


Contrary to what you may believe, it wasn't aimed at you. It was a general sweeping statement.

Your post about FFXIV being the best MMO on the market from day 1, however, was just mind-numbing. When someone can say something is the best on the market when even the creators of the game itself so strongly disagree...well, what else can be said?

Quote:
To put it simply, it's been a long time since I've seen anyone lose an argument as thoroughly as you. I got a laugh out of it, sure, but I'm not going to keep going around in circles when you clearly can't even grasp basic arguments. If you did, you never would have used my post to begin with, because I refuted your assumption about my stance in that very post. Almost everyone else on this board is capable of understanding what opinions are and how they work... I don't see why you struggle so much with that concept. Normally I'd assume someone who can write as well as yourself wouldn't have so much trouble with something so simple, but I guess that's what I get for making assumptions.


Your "opinion" is just as meaningless as it was when you first posted that bit about FFXIV being the best MMO on the market.

You can tuck your head into the turtle shell of subjectivity all you want, but all that does is forfeit your say (and if you honestly think FFXIV is the best MMO on the market, that would be for the best).

Subjectivity has no place in a discussion where we can OBJECTIVELY say what will make this game more playable, have more broad appeal and ultimately convince more potential customers to come in and PAY to play it, which is what SE is desperately trying to do.

Quote:
There's nowhere else to go with this now, but hopefully you learn something and refrain from posting such nonsensical drivel again. But if you do, which you probably will, I'd thank you to leave me out of it.


I've learned that angry people with opinions that defy all logic can somehow ignore all evidence that they're wrong, but you've still got a deal.

I admit, I never should've involved you in this in the first place...
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#108 Feb 07 2011 at 11:46 PM Rating: Good
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TheRealDestian wrote:

YOU were the one who said FFXIV was BETTER than the biggest and most popular MMOs on day 1...and now you're backpedaling into "it's all subjective"?

I'm not backpedaling, I said it was subjective in the original post. Taking my words out of context =/= valid argument.

TheRealDestian wrote:

Retreating to "subjective means that all opinions are valid!" means that there's never any point to arguing anything ever because EVERYTHING could be defined as subjective.

Asking someone what video game they think is best is like asking them their favorite color... You wanna sit around and argue about that too? I like this game, and I like the direction it's going in... I don't see why that should offend you. Anyone who launches a crusade trying to prove that blue should be everyones favorite color is a moron, it's as simple as that. Whether blue versions of products sell better or not is irrelevant.

TheRealDestian wrote:

And your "opinion" immediately means that you are not to be listened to for even one scrap of constructive criticism regarding this game.

The same applies to you.

TheRealDestian wrote:

Do you think Yoshi-P took up the reigns of this game and said to himself, "This game is better than the biggest and most popular mmo's out there!"?

Obviously not, hence all the work that's being done on the game, which I completely support, as I've stated plenty of times. I don't understand why you're so vehemently against anyone enjoying this game while it evolves... You're a fanatical troll about this, you do realize that right?

TheRealDestian wrote:

By my logic, Square wants to make M-O-N-E-Y, and they're not going to do that with a game that fails to bring in those good numbers.

Bottom line is this: you called this game the best MMO on the market

SE does want to make money, hence the continued development. And think of this game at launch as a beat up car, and other mmo's on the market as a polished shiny tricycle. They're great at being what they are, but I'm not looking for a tricycle, I'm looking for a car... So yes, the beat up car is the best choice available, and the best thing to do with it is to fix it up until it's in good condition.

Better pull out that banner of yours and jump down my throat again, because I assume I'm not allowed to think that either. Other people might think of SE's games as the tricycle in that analogy, and that's fine. Unlike you, I respect other peoples personal tastes, and don't care about converting them to mine.

TheRealDestian wrote:

Maplestory is free to play. The people playing WoW are paying $15 a month to do so. This is a colossal difference. ($75 million dollars a month difference, in fact).

So these cold hard numbers we're talking about are only valid when they support what you're rambling on about then? My point was to illustrate the varied degrees of tastes people have, and how saying all opinions but the most popular are wrong is a retarded thing to say.

Wii sports, several Mario games, Pac-man, Pokemon, and several other games that not everybody likes have all gotten more paying customers than WoW. Guess someone should go tell all those WoW players that even though they think they are having fun, they are wrong and must convert to the "right" way of gaming, and pick up a copy of pokemon, and while we're at it, may as well convert all those poor fleas who own Xbox 360's and PS3's into Wii owners, because hey, why would anyone play something other than Mario and Wii sports.. Don't they know how popular they are?


TheRealDestian wrote:

You did say "Seriously, if SE's flops are better than the biggest and most popular mmo's on day 1, then wtf." That's not "more fun to me". That's calling it "better" than the biggest MMOs on the market, which is a pretty bold statement.

I mentioned in that same post, and many times since that it was subjective and merely my opinion. It's not my fault if you're too thick to understand what I meant, explained, elaborated on, spelled out, and then reiterated several times... etc. I've explained what I meant in every post, stop pedantically nitpicking my choice of words. Geez.

Why does it enrage you that I enjoy playing a video game you don't like? Am I some kind of infidel to your troll religion?

I was just stating my opinion that I enjoy this game. You then hopped on your soapbox and tried telling me why I'm not allowed to do that, and personally attacked me with condescending remarks about that whole flea bullsh*t. That makes you a douche in my book.

TheRealDestian wrote:

The difference is that you call me a "douchebag" to express your angst toward me for offending you. I call you a "flea" in the hopes of getting you to change your ways.

Lmao... Yeah, not to mention that little rant of yours explaining your definition of a "flea". And there's that troll religion of yours showing again with that "change your ways" bit.. Oh noes, I enjoy something you don't like, please show me the error of my ways! oh lordy how I has sinned. Praise WoW.

Really though, I don't buy that you can't see how the drivel you've been ranting on about is a pile of arrogant garbage. Nobody on this forum is that stupid. If you want to talk down to people, and give them belittling labels, that's your choice, and freedom of speech protects it. But don't patronize me by acting surprised when I call you a douchebag for doing so. You are living in a different world if you weren't already well aware of the fact that you're a trolling prick when you were typing up the original post in this thread. I'm only calling you out for it.


TheRealDestian wrote:

Contrary to what you may believe, it wasn't aimed at you. It was a general sweeping statement.

lol.. Now this one really did make me laugh... So, a general sweeping statement that belittles a whole group of people is okay then? Hmmm... Pretty sure you're not the first to try that... It doesn't usually end well.

The funny part is that somehow, that's supposed to make you look like less of a douchebag? "Oh, no you've got me all wrong! I didn't mean you specifically are inferior, I meant that everyone who disagrees with me is... So it's okay now, right?"

Not to mention... You just said in the above quote I listed, that you called me a flea... Then, 2 seconds later, it was suddenly not aimed at me... Now whose backpedaling?

TheRealDestian wrote:

I've learned that angry people with opinions that defy all logic can somehow ignore all evidence that they're wrong

I was just thinking the exact same thing. Well, you go ahead and continue your bitter little crusade against people who don't like the same games as you. I've seen plenty of trolls before, but you really live for this sh*t don't you? Would it really kill you to **** off just this once and stop trying to convince people about what they are and are not allowed to enjoy?

Or don't, whatever floats your goat... I'm done with this though, have fun on your soapbox. This is just digressing into an epeen war at this point, as you're clearly not going to back down and admit you're wrong.
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#109 Feb 08 2011 at 12:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I call you a "flea" in the hopes of getting you to change your ways.


Surely sir, you can think of a better way to have someone consider changing their opinion on a particular subject without using fictitious derogatory words.
#110 Feb 08 2011 at 12:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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we should let this stupid thread die :)
thanks
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#111 Feb 08 2011 at 12:41 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm missing something because I don't see what the big deal is... I agree with the OP. Being a fan involves criticizing and praising. Being unable to criticize or accept criticism isn't being a fan, it's being a fanboy, and it won't help the game progress into what it has the potential to be. I understand people have said all this before so the thread might be redundant, but the message I agree with... even if it puts off some people.
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#112 Feb 08 2011 at 1:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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MCraine wrote:
I'm missing something because I don't see what the big deal is... I agree with the OP. Being a fan involves criticizing and praising. Being unable to criticize or accept criticism isn't being a fan, it's being a fanboy, and it won't help the game progress into what it has the potential to be. I understand people have said all this before so the thread might be redundant, but the message I agree with... even if it puts off some people.


Although redundant, its one thing to note the distinction between fans and "fanboys", but I find it to be another matter to think up these labels such as "fanboys" "whiteknights" "carebears" "trolls" *insert childish labels your 6 year old uses in elementary school here* because you feel you have to find some offensive way to label a group whose opinions differ from yours. Whether it's to "change their ways" or whatever.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and entitled to discuss their differences in why they don't see eye to eye, but all the name calling from both sides is a little tiresome isn't it? Sure "it's the internet" and I should just deal with it, but it'd be nice if people could be a bit more civil.
#113 Feb 08 2011 at 2:14 AM Rating: Good
I am a combination of both....I am a Flan.

I like the game and I critique it too.
#114 Feb 08 2011 at 3:22 AM Rating: Good
IlethiusTarraban wrote:
I am a combination of both....I am a Flan.

I like the game and I critique it too.


I LOLd!
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#115 Feb 08 2011 at 6:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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MCraine wrote:
I'm missing something because I don't see what the big deal is... I agree with the OP. Being a fan involves criticizing and praising. Being unable to criticize or accept criticism isn't being a fan, it's being a fanboy, and it won't help the game progress into what it has the potential to be. I understand people have said all this before so the thread might be redundant, but the message I agree with... even if it puts off some people.


Face it, idiots call people fanboys when they can't argue a point or try to argue someone's opinion.
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#116 Feb 08 2011 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
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BadJoRed wrote:
we should let this stupid thread die :)
thanks


No way! I'm quite enjoying watching Tiger absolutely steamroll Destian. Keep it up guys!
#117 Feb 08 2011 at 9:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm still trying to figure out other than name calling, what this thread has to do with this game... *Is watching people kick dead horses for no reason*...>.>;
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#118 Feb 08 2011 at 5:32 PM Rating: Default
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Tiger228 wrote:
Wii sports, several Mario games, Pac-man, Pokemon, and several other games that not everybody likes have all gotten more paying customers than WoW. Guess someone should go tell all those WoW players that even though they think they are having fun, they are wrong and must convert to the "right" way of gaming, and pick up a copy of pokemon, and while we're at it, may as well convert all those poor fleas who own Xbox 360's and PS3's into Wii owners, because hey, why would anyone play something other than Mario and Wii sports.. Don't they know how popular they are?


Never was this a discussion about "having fun". This is about objectively establishing what will make FFXIV a more salable game.

So let's distill your entire argument down to the basics (rank 16 alchemist should be high enough for that :p )...

1. You think that everything is subjective, therefore you can say whatever you want without taking responsibility for it.

2. You don't see how an objective stance is necessary to improve FFXIV so more people will buy it and pay to play it.

3. You think I'm somehow angry at you for liking the game.

4. I hurt your feelings.

On #1...

Can we just throw out subjectivity altogether? Because, if EVERYTHING is subjective, then everything is okay even when it shouldn't be. There are people (who alarm me) who consider racism to be okay because it's "all subjective" and how it's not their fault if others "don't see the humor in it". I hate to use such a severe example, but really, subjectivity has no place in this discussion. Toss it out like I throw away moko grass.

On #2...

Yes, we CAN objectively make this game better. There are features, content and other enhancements which will OBJECTIVELY make this a more salable game. Ironically, the majority of the features that will no doubt be added to this game will have been in the other MMOs you slighted (like auction houses, quests from NPCs, pets, guild/player housing, etc.).

On #3...

You have a persecution complex. You think that because I called you out on saying something incredibly dumb that I therefore must have a "troll religion" and that I hate all people who enjoy this game. I don't even hate YOU (I admit, you're growing on me), you just said something stupid and got called on it. That's where it starts and ends. People say dumb things all the time (without exception).

On #4...

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. In fairness, I didn't name you when I quoted you, so you could've taken it or left it.

MCraine wrote:
I'm missing something because I don't see what the big deal is... I agree with the OP. Being a fan involves criticizing and praising. Being unable to criticize or accept criticism isn't being a fan, it's being a fanboy, and it won't help the game progress into what it has the potential to be. I understand people have said all this before so the thread might be redundant, but the message I agree with... even if it puts off some people.


I don't get it either.

I described the worst kind of fanboys in existence and a lot of people showed up to defend them (were they convinced I was talking about them?).

IlethiusTarraban wrote:
I am a combination of both....I am a Flan.

I like the game and I critique it too.


Actually, that's just being a fan.

"Fleas" and "fans" are really opposites, when it comes down to it.
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#119 Feb 08 2011 at 10:33 PM Rating: Good
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TheRealDestian wrote:

Never was this a discussion about "having fun". This is about objectively establishing what will make FFXIV a more salable game.

That's what I was talking about in the post you originally took out of context. And even barring that, the games I just listed that you just quoted, I don't even like. I mentioned them because they had higher sales than WoW, and to show that raw selling power does not make a good game that everyone likes just because it sells well. If that's what you're looking for, why are you even here? Go play the best seller on the market. Other people have other tastes, and SE is in the process of building a game for them. Diversity on the market is a good thing.

TheRealDestian wrote:

Can we just throw out subjectivity altogether? Because, if EVERYTHING is subjective

No, we can't, because everything isn't subjective. Most people have the common sense to see that. You're just twisting every word you're able to because otherwise you'd have no argument. "Oh gee, this bit of logic is making me look bad... Can't we just throw that out?...

TheRealDestian wrote:

There are people (who alarm me) who consider racism to be okay because it's "all subjective" and how it's not their fault if others "don't see the humor in it"

Let's think about this for a second... What do most racists do? They make sweeping derogatory generalizations about groups of people. Now, what did you're original post in this thread do?... What a hypocrite you are... tsk tsk.



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#120 Feb 08 2011 at 10:36 PM Rating: Good
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Troll... Nuff said...
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#121 Feb 08 2011 at 11:22 PM Rating: Default
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435 posts
Tiger228 wrote:
That's what I was talking about in the post you originally took out of context. And even barring that, the games I just listed that you just quoted, I don't even like. I mentioned them because they had higher sales than WoW, and to show that raw selling power does not make a good game that everyone likes just because it sells well. If that's what you're looking for, why are you even here? Go play the best seller on the market. Other people have other tastes, and SE is in the process of building a game for them. Diversity on the market is a good thing.


I agree that diversity on the market is a good thing, and in no way would I ever go back to WoW, but WoW, Aion, etc. have a lot of things going for them that FFXIV doesn't yet.

Let me illustrate why what you said would be construed as a bad thing in the circumstance which we, the players, are realistically in...

Say a person is a part of a focus group, and the focus testing is a soda that tastes terrible. The soda manufacturer is looking for feedback from the focus group regarding how to make a better soda. If one person from that group stood up and said, "This is the best thing I've ever tasted, but it could use some improvements...", would the focus group manager be inclined to consider their data?

This is what WE are: a paid focus group, and there's no "context" to consider here. You started your post by explaining that you thought FFXIV was the best MMO on the market, thereby immediately invalidating any further opinion considering that the REASON we're here and not paying is because the developers themselves know it's NOT the best game on the market.

To recap, this has NOTHING to do with your right to enjoy the game or with you personally. Only stating the facts as they would be viewed by the manager.

Quote:
No, we can't, because everything isn't subjective. Most people have the common sense to see that. You're just twisting every word you're able to because otherwise you'd have no argument. "Oh gee, this bit of logic is making me look bad... Can't we just throw that out?...


You were the one hiding behind "it's all subjective!" not so long ago.

We agree, then: it's not all subjective, which means that we can't just spout off fanboyish nonsense and expect to defend it under the banner of "it's all subjective!".

When you declare FFXIV the best MMO on the market, SE can OBJECTIVELY say you're wrong, so why even defend that statement any longer?

Quote:
Let's think about this for a second... What do most racists do? They make sweeping derogatory generalizations about groups of people. Now, what did you're original post in this thread do?... What a hypocrite you are... tsk tsk.


Did you REALLY just compare being called out on being on overzealous fanboy to the trials and tribulations of people hurt (both emotionally and physically) by racism?

THINK about that for a moment, and then please never type anything that unfathomably idiotic ever again. Don't try to pretend that the REAL suffering and persecution millions of people endure on a daily basis because of the color of their skin or their religious beliefs is in ANY way shape or form even REMOTELY comparable to being called a fanboy on an internet forum.

Persecution complex or not, that is low...

Edited, Feb 9th 2011 1:41am by TheRealDestian
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#122 Feb 09 2011 at 12:37 AM Rating: Default
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435 posts
LillithaFenimore wrote:
Troll... Nuff said...


No, I may be seen as the villain because I'm pointing out some of the uglier truths about this forum, but I'm not here to troll.

Yes, I'm taken aback by the reactions here, but I don't get anything out of this other than the hope that people will see these tendencies in themselves and stop doing them.

I used to be a huge flea for a number of companies. Then one day I woke up and realized that your favorite brand or game should not also be your religion, a trap I see a tremendous number of people here falling into.

If you don't fall into the trap, fine. I'm not here to point the finger of accusation (at anyone except Tiger here, apparently). Rather, I'm here to point out that the trap exists. If you fell into it, I'm not going to hold it against you, just climb out of it and don't see FFXIV as anything more than a tool for entertainment.

Yes, I see this happening a lot, and NO, I'm not going to pull out any MORE examples because that'll just lead to more angry forumers chewing on my leg. :P
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#123 Feb 09 2011 at 1:53 AM Rating: Decent
33 posts
Well, we can all take comfort that no one listens to fanboys except their own little incestuous community. Just think, if SE actually considered what fanboys have to say as worthwhile this game would be the same as it was at launch. No one being fired, no more redoing it over, no free months while they get the game in shape. No one cares what the defenders of the game have to say. Their loyalty is getting them nothing. Sure they are playing for free, but that is nothing special. We all can play for free. This game is still losing customers, here and maybe the other board is the only place on the internet thinking that numbers are going up. Square is courting the people who are left and are critical. They are courting those that have left. They are ignoring every thing that the fleas have to say.

Having said that, when Square DOES start catering to the fleas, thats when you know they have given up and and are desperate at keeping the few that are left. Right now they are trying to fix things. Have a relaunch and get new subs, sell new boxes. They havent given up, not yet. Personally, I don't think they can recover. Their best hope is a redo like EQ2 and even that game never fully recovered. So when they do start listening to the fanboys, the trolling here will stop because no one gives a ****. There are people still disappointed, still hoping for a recovery. When this game is dying the only people here will be the fanboys and they can circle jerk to their hearts content.

#124 Feb 09 2011 at 2:08 AM Rating: Good
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211 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:

Say a person is a part of a focus group, and the focus testing is a soda that tastes terrible. The soda manufacturer is looking for feedback from the focus group regarding how to make a better soda. If one person from that group stood up and said, "This is the best thing I've ever tasted, but it could use some improvements..."

Hey, look, if the "soda" we're talking about, tasted terrible, but every other soda on the market tasted even worse to me, than what do you expect me to say? Are you saying I should just lie?

That might be how you go about things, but I don't. My stance is that this game is better than the alternatives, but it needs to be better than it is. The part of my stance you keep leaving out, is that I'm satisfied with the direction the team is going in. If, like in your analogy, SE came out and said "well, it's good enough, and we will make no effort to make it better" then I'd quit that very day.

That's not the case though, in fact, the exact opposite is. The game has a good foundation, the team is working hard on it, and I think the absolute last thing they need to do, is to start poaching "recipes" for "sodas" that taste even worse, then try and mix them together and somehow make something that tastes good. SE made this game with the intention of pioneering new mechanics and gameplay, and that's exactly what the market needs. There are enough WoW clones. If that's what you want, go play one of them. If not, you need to understand that whenever a company goes out on a limb and tries new things, there is a chance that some of them won't work out too well. And when they don't, you keep at it and make things better.

That's what SE is doing, and I like it so I'm sticking around. There's a lot of other people out there looking for a fresh mmo experience, and considering SE is primarily a console gaming company, and that's where it's largest fanbase is, they are basically sitting on a 2nd chance at relaunching the game with the PS3 release. That gives them time to refine things, add content, feel out the reactions to it, etc.

Long story short... SE is building a game that a lot of people are looking forward to, and they are well aware that it needs to sell, and are trying pretty **** hard to give the players what they want, while still sticking to their plan for an original game, and you are trolling around about how everyone who isn't willing to do things your way, and rehash stale garbage mechanics that this games fanbase is sick of, is beneath you. Just because they're not copying the most popular mmo doesn't mean they won't ever turn a profit on it.


TheRealDestian wrote:

When you declare FFXIV the best MMO on the market, SE can OBJECTIVELY say you're wrong, so why even defend that statement any longer?

I'll use your own analogy for this... Cola is statistically the most popular flavor of soda. So why do other flavors exist? Because which flavor is best, is a subjective matter, therefore, different people will have different favorite flavors. Other flavors beyond cola exist to target consumers with those differing tastes, and there are plenty of flavors that are profitable to manufacture. None of them would exist, if at some point, some company didn't go out on a limb, and create a new flavor of soda. "Let's not bother making a lime soda, people who like lime more than cola are objectively wrong, and they should just learn to like cola." I guess you must be right, since no flavors of soda beyond cola exist.. oh wait... There's dozens of them? Well hrmmm, wonder how that happened.

People like you are what hurts the industry. If everyone actually listened to you,(and thank goodness they don't) we would have only 1 flavor of everything, one model of everything, one version of everything, etc. The irony being that you seem to harbor contempt for these "fleas" because they hurt the overall game, when in fact, people with your mentality do that more than just about anyone besides the people who want games completely banned out of existence.


TheRealDestian wrote:

Did you REALLY just compare being called out on being on overzealous fanboy to the trials and tribulations of oppressed minorities?

You're the one who made the sweeping blanket declaration aimed at belittling a general group of people. Yes, it wasn't the most extreme case of it to ever take place, but just because there are worse examples of it doesn't justify it.

That's like someone mugging you for $50, and when they're caught, saying: "Well other people have stolen millions, I only stole $50. Are you REALLY comparing me to them?" ... Does that make what that person did okay? Of course not. You can try and justify it anyway you want, but I'll only think of you as more of a douchebag for trying to worm your way out of admitting that it was an ignorant, moronic thing to do.

Seriously, go back and reread your original post, and you tell me that you don't see anything wrong with that. Then again, you probably don't. Neither do most other people with that mentality. The only thing we have to be thankful for is that you're only a petty douchebag instead of a monstrous one. Split the hairs however you want, but that still makes you a douchebag for making that sort of statement. And lol at you trying to turn your blithering drivel around to make it look like I'm the one who said something that crossed a line.

TheRealDestian wrote:
No, I may be seen as the villain because I'm pointing out some of the uglier truths about this forum, but I'm not here to troll.


You're delusional, that's the ugly truth here. Most of us have been well aware, through all the games we've played, that it's nothing more than a tool for entertainment. If you at some point, thought of a game you played as your religion or lifes purpose, that's a real shame, but it puts you in a small minority of people. Now you're just projecting what you see as a mentality that you've shed onto everyone who disagrees with you, and you seem to think that you can be some savior and snap them out of it with some tough love. You're really just flinging sh*t around out of ignorance.

I play this game because I like it. If I liked a different game more, I'd be playing that. I don't say that because I'm forcing myself to love the FF name(like I said, I thought FFXIII was trash if you need proof of that) and I don't have some ridiculous crush on a multimillion dollar company just because they've made some games I liked. I mean really, is it so hard to imagine that maybe, I just actually enjoy the game?

I'm not trying to convince SE to listen to me. nor do I feel some entitled to call the shots about where this game goes like some of you trolls do. I'll chip in my vote on their polls, because they extend them for that very reason. Beyond that, I want them to make the game they want to make. If I don't like where it goes, I'll bail. If I enjoy it, I'll play it. I'm all for making it better, but like I've said, stealing another persons game is not how to make your game better. If you want pull a label out of your *** for that, you go right ahead, since ultimately, when you do that, you're opinion becomes pretty worthless. I'll just go on thinking of myself as a niche gamer, and play whatever I feel like.

LillithaFenimore wrote:
*Is watching people kick dead horses for no reason*...>.>;

hehe... At this point, it's really more like picking at the bleached bones. And thems' some tasty bones. Grab some popcorn, guess we can see who gets in the last word before a thread lock, lol. :P
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#125 Feb 09 2011 at 2:19 AM Rating: Good
28 posts
i dont really feel like reading through 3 pages of replies.. soo.. im just going to interject completely randomly here.. but this totally reminds me of that angry fella on the customer feedback forum..you know..the one who would so vehemently defend the chat log TP alert thing and proclaimed his superiority because he had mastered that system xD Either way, i know you're not trollin just by how you compose yourself elsewhere, rock on!

**edit**

Bags! Those are some MASSIVE walls of text, I wish I were here for the meat of it, I love arguments about logic and the fallacious nature of humans Smiley: lol

Edited, Feb 9th 2011 3:22am by Razzamatazz
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#126 Feb 09 2011 at 7:03 AM Rating: Good
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800 posts
Razzamatazz wrote:
Bags!


Watch the language Zedd! :D

I still can't believe Destian is trying to objectively conclude that any video game is better than another. You'd think he'd get the point by now that different people have different tastes for entertainment. Popularity only indicates the game which satisfies the most peoples' tastes. Assuming the population has a gradient of tastes, it's only reasonable to conclude some people's tastes will match FFXIV perfectly. But apparently this makes them a "flea". They should stop enjoying FFXIV because the popular opinion is that FFXIV needs a lot of work. Do I have that right Destian?
#127 Feb 09 2011 at 8:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,636 posts
can we please stop trying to polarizing these boards even more by trying to put people into one of two opposed groups? Fans vs Fleas, White knights vs trolls. I know its easier to argue against a strawman, but barring a few trolls (real definition, not the zam coined anyone who criticizes the game one from last month), nobody is that far to one side.
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#128 Feb 09 2011 at 8:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Tiger228 wrote:

TheRealDestian wrote:

When you declare FFXIV the best MMO on the market, SE can OBJECTIVELY say you're wrong, so why even defend that statement any longer?

I'll use your own analogy for this... Cola is statistically the most popular flavor of soda. So why do other flavors exist? Because which flavor is best, is a subjective matter, therefore, different people will have different favorite flavors. Other flavors beyond cola exist to target consumers with those differing tastes, and there are plenty of flavors that are profitable to manufacture. None of them would exist, if at some point, some company didn't go out on a limb, and create a new flavor of soda. "Let's not bother making a lime soda, people who like lime more than cola are objectively wrong, and they should just learn to like cola." I guess you must be right, since no flavors of soda beyond cola exist.. oh wait... There's dozens of them? Well hrmmm, wonder how that happened.

People like you are what hurts the industry. If everyone actually listened to you,(and thank goodness they don't) we would have only 1 flavor of everything, one model of everything, one version of everything, etc. The irony being that you seem to harbor contempt for these "fleas" because they hurt the overall game, when in fact, people with your mentality do that more than just about anyone besides the people who want games completely banned out of existence.


Smiley: flowers

That pretty much sums it up. Yes, XIV has problems and can get better (and clearly is getting better) but when I really think about it, it's only in the videogame world where being a "fanboy or fangirl" is used as an insult or to say it's degrading to the success of something.

In the movie industry Leonardo Decaprio for example has a lot of fangirls no doubt about it, I personally find he's a horrendous actor but I'm not going to sit around saying his fangirls are killing the movie industry by liking his work and never criticizing him because it didn't stop Jason Statham from rising up and it sure as heck didn't stop Jackie Chan from being huge in the west despite him not being fluent in English and his fans are crazy for him (fanboy/fangirl) and don't criticize him to "make him better" or anything.

I just really don't get it when you get down to it as it seems to be a video game specific thing.

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#129 Feb 09 2011 at 11:15 AM Rating: Decent
28 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
Razzamatazz wrote:
Bags!


Watch the language Zedd! :D



Shhh, its our little secret ;)
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#130 Feb 09 2011 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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236 posts
Tiger228 wrote:





TheRealDestian wrote:

When you declare FFXIV the best MMO on the market, SE can OBJECTIVELY say you're wrong, so why even defend that statement any longer?

I'll use your own analogy for this... Cola is statistically the most popular flavor of soda. So why do other flavors exist? Because which flavor is best, is a subjective matter, therefore, different people will have different favorite flavors. Other flavors beyond cola exist to target consumers with those differing tastes, and there are plenty of flavors that are profitable to manufacture. None of them would exist, if at some point, some company didn't go out on a limb, and create a new flavor of soda. "Let's not bother making a lime soda, people who like lime more than cola are objectively wrong, and they should just learn to like cola." I guess you must be right, since no flavors of soda beyond cola exist.. oh wait... There's dozens of them? Well hrmmm, wonder how that happened.





That analogy WOULD make sense. But you're not defending lime soda over cola. You're defending lime soda where they forgot to add sugar, or carbonation. I'm a FAN of FFXIV. It's the only MMO I'm playing right now - I stopped playing my XI account when I started playing XIV and I put aside DCUO altogether as soon as I bought XIV - and I'm enjoying it very much. But most of my enjoyment is flavored with thoughts of how the game will POTENTIALLY be when more improvements are implemented. It's kind of like me buying lime soda when everyone else likes cola only to find out the lime soda was flat. Upon buying a flat can of soda I wouldn't turn around and say "TO ME (subjectively), this is the best soda on the market!". I'd probably say "Wow, this tastes pretty good but it's flat". If I'd bought a case and it was all flat, I'd probably write the manufacturer saying "Hey, I bought a case of your lime soda and while I'm a fan of the idea of lime soda, yours has no carbonation; can you please send me a case that does?". What I wouldn't want to do is be going out in the world declaring my flat lime soda to be the best soda available until I'd gotten to try it with the carbonation for the simple fact that without carbonation, the soda is incomplete. Being a fan of lime soda would be fine - you would surely find others who agreed with your taste. Trying to tell people your flat lime soda was the best on the market would probably make people think you were crazy; every time they bought a can they'd be drinking flat soda and wondering how something that wasn't made properly, or wasn't 100% complete, could possibly compete for the best soda on the market.

FFXIV has a lot of potential, and so far for me has been a lot of fun. However, it's clearly incomplete. Saying it's the best on the market is simply silly, and is the worst kind of message that someone who WANTS FFXIV to survive can put out there. When a game (or any product) needs work, you don't want to give the producer that kind of positive feedback. Constructive criticism, tempered by positive encouragement is one thing; declaring a deficient product to be best in it's class is another. When something needs improvement, and it's in YOUR OWN interests that it does improve, you don't want to give the manufacturer the opinion that it's good enough as is. To say that FFXIV, in it's current state, is the best MMO on the market, is to say that it's good enough as is, when it clearly isn't. Not sure why you both are having such a hard time coming to this point, but it's the simple truth. There's nothing wrong with having subjective tastes in games, or in any other area of consumption. The reason we have choices in any market is because we all have different tastes. LIKE you, I also have a taste for FFXIV (or lime soda over cola), but I'm not going to declare it the best on the market just because I enjoy it the most, because I realize that doing so can't help it to improve.

When Destain first called you out, was he really supposed to go and research all of your other posts to determine your overall stance on the improvement of the game? He didn't put your name with the quote and I don't think his intention was to belittle you, but rather to point out the KINDS of posts that CAN'T help the game improve. When something is good enough, it doesn't need to get better. In order for something to be the best of its class; the best on the market, it MUST be good enough. Just because FFXIV is your (and mine) preferred MMO, doesn't mean it's good enough just now. That's Destain's point. People who "cheer lead" for the game rather than aim to identify and address it's faults will only lead to the game's demise, not it's survival. In order for the game to survive SE must feel a continued urge from the fanbase for it to improve, and must know exactly which ways in which to improve it. This comes from criticism, not blind praise.


Now, before you attack me, I understand you're NOT necessarily one to blindly praise the game. I'm just explaining why SUBJECTIVITY, as Destain said, should be thrown out the window when appraising FFXIV for the time being, and why your ONE post was an easy target, even if it's not indicative of your overall feelings towards FFXIV.


Edited, Feb 9th 2011 12:46pm by MCraine
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#131 Feb 09 2011 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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3,178 posts
This is an awesome thread. Warping logic to fit your own needs is hugely entertaining for both the writer and the reader. Keep it coming!

I like Cola, but I like Root Beer more. I walk into a bar and ask if they have Root Beer. (If I get a dirty look I settle for a Captain and Coke.) Otherwise, I order a Captain and Root Beer. I call this a Captain's Treasure. Did you know Root Beer and Rum are both sugar cane products? Just different stages of fermentation. Delicious.

I was going to try to wrap that into the soda analogy but I've decided I can't be bothered.

Back to it then.
#132 Feb 09 2011 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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3,178 posts
EDIT: Double Post. Cyclical reasoning FTW!

Edited, Feb 9th 2011 2:11pm by RufuSwho
#133 Feb 09 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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211 posts
I actually agree with most of what you said Mcraine. The main difference is just that of petty terminology. You say that you enjoy FFXIV more than the other games on the market, but you're not willing to call it the the best, because you feel it's incomplete and still needs a lot of work. I enjoy it more than the other games on the market, and thus am willing to say it's better than the alternatives on the market. But at the same time, I have plenty of areas of it to criticize, and have no problems telling SE that if they just decide it's good enough, and to stop developing it, I'll just drop mmo gaming and cancel my account.

But really it sounds like we have the exact same opinion of it aside from that one superficial difference. If I thought that SE would see one part of one of my random posts, and base the entire future of their game off of it despite what all their other fans say, then I might have chosen my words more carefully. I just don't see that happening though, so I'll just call it as I see it. FFXIV is enough fun atm to play, and the direction and updates it gets are enough to keep me around for now. The other mmo's out there do not offer an experience that would keep me playing, or persuade me to pay for them. So relatively speaking, I consider it the best, but 'best' is like I just said, a relative term, and does not mean it's good enough to stop working on. SE has demonstrated that they are well aware of that, so I'm not worried about nitpicking terminology.

Tell you what though. I'll compromise with this Destian fellow. If SE ever does decide to halt development of this game, based on one piece of one of my posts taken entirely out of context of the rest of my opinion, I'll send them a letter to correct them and let them know that I won't be satisfied with that decision. :P

MCraine wrote:

FFXIV has a lot of potential, and so far for me has been a lot of fun. However, it's clearly incomplete.

I agree with that.

MCraine wrote:

Saying it's the best on the market is simply silly, and is the worst kind of message that someone who WANTS FFXIV to survive can put out there.

But this is where I disagree. As I said above, 'best' is a relative term. And from a different point of view, I think using that term can actually be a good thing for them to hear, provided we make it clear that we consider the game incomplete, and expect development to continue for quite some time. But, it tells SE that their plan, to make an original mmo, is a welcome plan indeed. If we just shoot down everything they do and say, fearing they won't keep bettering the game, except for when they poach WoW mechanics to which we say "Oh yeah, keep doing that, now you're on the right track." That's what will ultimately hurt the game. As I said before, when you try new things, sometimes you're bound to fail. Success and originality often require mistakes to be made. I think we should encourage SE to stay the course and make the unique mmo they want to make, and just help them correct the mistakes they make along the way. It's, in my opinion, the best approach. So I'm not afraid to use that term.

We've already seen this play out, as the wards, original SP system, and UI are all being changed. But on the upside, we have things like the armory system and battle regiments, which I see a lot of potential in. The battle system has room for depth, but needs it brought out. But the battle system in a lot of other mmo's is just flat out shallow. You tear through trash mobs and then spam 1 or 2 skills on a boss until it's dead. No BR's, no limb incaps, no coordination... Just spam 1 and don't stand in the fire and you're good. And that's the refined version of it. Some people might like the other system more though, and there's where subjectivity enters into it, which is why it shouldn't just be tossed out the window, it just needs to be taken in context.

MCraine wrote:

When Destain first called you out, was he really supposed to go and research all of your other posts to determine your overall stance on the improvement of the game? He didn't put your name with the quote and I don't think his intention was to belittle you, but rather to point out the KINDS of posts that CAN'T help the game improve.

If you read the original post, and see that whole sweeping generalization about "fleas" along with the rant that he used to basically connote them to people who have an opinion that is inferior to him, well that's basically what irked me. I probably would have got into it with him even if he hadn't quoted me, but since he did, well that just made it almost obligatory. :P

And again, in context, I don't see how my opinion can doom the game. It's not like I'm fine with them leaving it as is. If anything, this is all just a lesson about taking things out of context. If you can't argue your point without doing so, you probably don't have a very good argument. When you do resort to doing that, and the person you quoted comes along and puts things into context, and then random people start saying things like "the OP is getting steamrolled", well that just furthers my point that taking bits out of context is not a good argument. Neither is making sweeping generalizations about people you don't agree with.

MCraine wrote:

Now, before you attack me, I understand you're NOT necessarily one to blindly praise the game. I'm just explaining why SUBJECTIVITY, as Destain said, should be thrown out the window when appraising FFXIV for the time being, and why your ONE post was an easy target, even if it's not indicative of your overall feelings towards FFXIV.

hehe.. I'm not going to 'attack' you for just engaging in a discussion. You're not using the sort of trash arguments that the OP used. Sure, I might not agree with you about what opinions do and do not hurt a games progression, but then if I did, we'd have nothing to argue. ;)

I can see where you're coming from though. And I can respect that opinion. But I'm eager to see SE build an original mmo, where as if they were to go and copy the other ones on the market, I'd just quit mmo gaming. The risk of the game failing just comes with the territory when you try something new. But it goes both ways, as you might also stumble on a formula that's better than what you could have copied from other games. This game has a lot of unfolding to do, and SE is taking polls and such to get a feel for what their fanbase wants. When the games ready, they have a 2nd launch for a platform that holds the bulk of their fanbase, and that gives them the potential for a comeback not afforded to most other mmo's that went out on a limb and floundered. The sacking of the old team shows that they aren't doing it blindly either, they're just willing to take risks, and adjust what doesn't work out. I think that's exactly what the market needs right now.

At any rate, I'm interested to see where the game ends up after it's finished. I might take a break from it here and there while they work on it, but I'll definitely keep my eye on it.
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#134 Feb 09 2011 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Tiger, while your prose is eloquent, I find that you are taking this topic entirely too seriously. I doubt many people have read this entire thread word for word in an attempt to actually gain some understanding into your point of view. I did.

You make some pretty strong assumtions sir. About what the developers were thinking, about why they are doing what they are doing now. About the thoughts of your fellow gamers.

Tiger228 wrote:
so I'm not worried about nitpicking terminology.


I call BS on that. See how irritating it is to quote someone out of context? Of course not. Next you will pick apart the word irritating or quote or context or it or is or someone or see.

Look man, I too am bored at work and have a wealth of thoughts about FFXIV. Sharing them on the ZAM forum is perfectly acceptable. Your agressive tone may be entertaining, but I see bit by bit you are getting too big for your cotton breeches (red).

Did you even read my post about Root Beer and Captain? That sh*t is delicious.



#135 Feb 09 2011 at 3:45 PM Rating: Default
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435 posts
NoOneHereAlive wrote:
Well, we can all take comfort that no one listens to fanboys except their own little incestuous community. Just think, if SE actually considered what fanboys have to say as worthwhile this game would be the same as it was at launch. No one being fired, no more redoing it over, no free months while they get the game in shape. No one cares what the defenders of the game have to say. Their loyalty is getting them nothing. Sure they are playing for free, but that is nothing special. We all can play for free. This game is still losing customers, here and maybe the other board is the only place on the internet thinking that numbers are going up. Square is courting the people who are left and are critical. They are courting those that have left. They are ignoring every thing that the fleas have to say.

Having said that, when Square DOES start catering to the fleas, thats when you know they have given up and and are desperate at keeping the few that are left. Right now they are trying to fix things. Have a relaunch and get new subs, sell new boxes. They havent given up, not yet. Personally, I don't think they can recover. Their best hope is a redo like EQ2 and even that game never fully recovered. So when they do start listening to the fanboys, the trolling here will stop because no one gives a sh*t. There are people still disappointed, still hoping for a recovery. When this game is dying the only people here will be the fanboys and they can circle jerk to their hearts content.


I didn't want to think that the situation was truly this bleak, but that certainly feels like the case sometimes (well, most of the time).

Tiger228 wrote:
Hey, look, if the "soda" we're talking about, tasted terrible, but every other soda on the market tasted even worse to me, than what do you expect me to say? Are you saying I should just lie?


Honestly, I have an incredibly difficult time believing that you TRULY feel this way. Not because FFXIV is bad, per se, but, well, let's gather some data here...

1. What is your past MMO experience? How many MMOs have you played total and for how long?

2. What was your favorite MMO before FFXIV?

3. What do you like about FFXIV that makes you so enamored to it?

Quote:
There are enough WoW clones. If that's what you want, go play one of them. If not, you need to understand that whenever a company goes out on a limb and tries new things, there is a chance that some of them won't work out too well. And when they don't, you keep at it and make things better.


YES! FInally! We're getting to meat of this discussion...

I wholeheartedly agree that the last thing we need is more ******* WoW clones. I did my time in WoW and I'm not going back (Aion was WoW with wings). But for as much as I ultimately left disliking it, it still did a large number of things right. For the most part, they weren't even gameplay-driven things but rather interface, streamlining of the experience, that kind of thing, things that we'll inevitably see in FFXIV because they're necessary as a foundation before we can really get to the content.

I feel that a lot of the problems FFXIV is having right now initially stemmed from wanting to be TOO different. Yoshi-P even commented upon this recently, saying that being different just for the sake of being different was a bad idea and led to many poor design choices (such as the market ward system which many, MANY people still think should go away. I personally think it's fine, but that's just me).

Quote:
Long story short... SE is building a game that a lot of people are looking forward to, and they are well aware that it needs to sell, and are trying pretty **** hard to give the players what they want, while still sticking to their plan for an original game, and you are trolling around about how everyone who isn't willing to do things your way, and rehash stale garbage mechanics that this games fanbase is sick of, is beneath you. Just because they're not copying the most popular mmo doesn't mean they won't ever turn a profit on it.


I agree with your stance that this is a good SHELL of a game, but that's still all they really have right now. I don't think we've reached the point where we can even say what will or won't happen. All we can do is hang on and do our best via providing as much objective feedback as we can.

Quote:
People like you are what hurts the industry. If everyone actually listened to you,(and thank goodness they don't) we would have only 1 flavor of everything, one model of everything, one version of everything, etc. The irony being that you seem to harbor contempt for these "fleas" because they hurt the overall game, when in fact, people with your mentality do that more than just about anyone besides the people who want games completely banned out of existence.


Let me preface by saying this...

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=1296789243144905345&page=1
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=129704422630406499&page=1
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=1293657449192569922&page=1
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=129486350088874064&page=1
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=1297026490170879065&page=1
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=1297030615221434691&page=1
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=129703009321527701&page=1
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=129703009321527701&page=1
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=1296717999107044553&page=1
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=129550078328606325&page=1
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=129540543951001909&page=1
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=1295500933288484583&page=1
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=1294506158285767001&page=1
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=1294901594127183204&page=1
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=129486350088874064&page=1

Those are all of the various suggestions, bugs reports and other items I've personally placed under the eyes of the devs (who check that forum regularly).

None of these suggestions would turn FFXIV into a WoW clone or anything of the sort. They're general improvements to aspects of the game and reporting some bugs (that are still lingering).

Where are YOUR suggestions to improve this game? It's funny: I see so many posters in this forum going on and on about how much they want to help FFXIV and then their names seldom if ever pop up in the ACTUAL feedback forum.

Let me guess: you've submitted your feedback directly to SE, right? Funny, that's what EVERYONE says when cornered on that subject...

Quote:
You're the one who made the sweeping blanket declaration aimed at belittling a general group of people. Yes, it wasn't the most extreme case of it to ever take place, but just because there are worse examples of it doesn't justify it.


racism |ˈrāˌsizəm|
noun
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
• prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief : a program to combat racism.


"FFXIV Fanboy" is not a race.

Get over your persecution complex so we can get back to having a meaningful discussion, please.

Quote:
You're delusional, that's the ugly truth here. Most of us have been well aware, through all the games we've played, that it's nothing more than a tool for entertainment. If you at some point, thought of a game you played as your religion or lifes purpose, that's a real shame, but it puts you in a small minority of people. Now you're just projecting what you see as a mentality that you've shed onto everyone who disagrees with you, and you seem to think that you can be some savior and snap them out of it with some tough love. You're really just flinging sh*t around out of ignorance.


If what you're saying is true, then no one would be jumping down a poster's throat over criticizing FFXIV, and I've seen too much of that first-hand to believe otherwise (and experienced too much of it). I've had people angry at me for "playing wrong" when I've pointed out that the interface sometimes doesn't register button presses.

I'm not sure if that definition applies to you (I'm only now starting to see just what it is you're arguing), but trust me, these people exist.

Quote:
I'm not trying to convince SE to listen to me. nor do I feel some entitled to call the shots about where this game goes like some of you trolls do. I'll chip in my vote on their polls, because they extend them for that very reason. Beyond that, I want them to make the game they want to make. If I don't like where it goes, I'll bail. If I enjoy it, I'll play it. I'm all for making it better, but like I've said, stealing another persons game is not how to make your game better. If you want pull a label out of your *** for that, you go right ahead, since ultimately, when you do that, you're opinion becomes pretty worthless. I'll just go on thinking of myself as a niche gamer, and play whatever I feel like.


That's your call. I prefer to take a more active involvement in its development via bug reporting and suggestions for game improvements. To each their own.

Quote:
hehe... At this point, it's really more like picking at the bleached bones. And thems' some tasty bones. Grab some popcorn, guess we can see who gets in the last word before a thread lock, lol. :P


If the mods were going to lock this thread, it would've happened a WHILE ago.

I'd hazard a guess that they haven't done it because I haven't started slinging angry insults at people (or maybe they're eating popcorn to it. Who can say?).

Razzamatazz wrote:
i dont really feel like reading through 3 pages of replies.. soo.. im just going to interject completely randomly here.. but this totally reminds me of that angry fella on the customer feedback forum..you know..the one who would so vehemently defend the chat log TP alert thing and proclaimed his superiority because he had mastered that system xD Either way, i know you're not trollin just by how you compose yourself elsewhere, rock on!

**edit**

Bags! Those are some MASSIVE walls of text, I wish I were here for the meat of it, I love arguments about logic and the fallacious nature of humans Smiley: lol


Thanks, Razz. It's been an interesting struggle, but I think Tiger and I might actually be close to seeing eye to eye here.

Grats on scholar, BTW :) (though in a month when they release the official forums, it may not matter).

Hydragyrum wrote:
I still can't believe Destian is trying to objectively conclude that any video game is better than another. You'd think he'd get the point by now that different people have different tastes for entertainment. Popularity only indicates the game which satisfies the most peoples' tastes. Assuming the population has a gradient of tastes, it's only reasonable to conclude some people's tastes will match FFXIV perfectly. But apparently this makes them a "flea". They should stop enjoying FFXIV because the popular opinion is that FFXIV needs a lot of work. Do I have that right Destian?


No, you have that completely wrong, actually...

First, please quote where I said that players "shouldn't enjoy FFXIV". I've said many times that I enjoy FFXIV. Why do people keep drawing the conclusion that I'm advocating disliking the game?

Second, I keep hearing "popularity" brought up as if the implication is that "popular = FFXIV should be made more like WoW". The only way FFXIV should be made more like WoW is in the streamlining of basic functionality to the point where the game is easier to play. I mean the interface stops "missing" button presses, the game has content, etc., and pretty much every MMO before WoW has had this so this isn't using WoW as a base of comparison.

Yes, I can see why people would like to keep the unique aspects of FFXIV, but we should be keeping the unique aspects that make it more fun and enjoyable, not the ones that make it irritating and cumbersome to play. The armory system is good example of a unique system that makes the game more fun and enjoyable. The retainer system? Not so much, and the fact that WoW ALSO has an AH shouldn't keep players from insisting that we shouldn't have one in FFXIV just to avoid being like WoW.

Edited, Feb 9th 2011 5:30pm by TheRealDestian
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#136 Feb 09 2011 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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3,178 posts
Didn't anyone tell you? When you copy/paste a dictionary definition in a forum post to prove your point you automatically lose.
#137 Feb 09 2011 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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I wonder if he actually things people will go through this entire thread...I sure as **** have not...

Since this thread really doesn't have anything to do with adding any sort of helpfulness in regard to this game in it...let me start by trying to derail it...

Any couples here that play this game who is on trabia?

Also, I had a fantastic workout today :) 8.25 miles. Go me!

Also, my daughter is awesome...

also, I am so looking forward to getitng my crafts to 20 :P
____________________________


"I've never watched a nuclear explosion myself. That's a couple of degrees of stupid above my limit"- Old Man Harris
#138 Feb 09 2011 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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435 posts
RufuSwho wrote:
Didn't anyone tell you? When you copy/paste a dictionary definition in a forum post to prove your point you automatically lose.


Are you SURE about that?

Rootbeer and Captain |roōt; roŏt||bi(ə)r||and||ˈkaptən|
noun
•The tastiest known beverage on the face of the earth: "I want to drown in Rootbeer and Captain!"
•Proof that God wants man to be happy: "Thank God for Rootbeer and Captain."
•What one would say when erroneously served a Rum Runner: "I said Rootbeer and Captain, dammit!"


LillithaFenimore wrote:
I wonder if he actually things people will go through this entire thread...I sure as **** have not...

Since this thread really doesn't have anything to do with adding any sort of helpfulness in regard to this game in it...let me start by trying to derail it...

Any couples here that play this game who is on trabia?

Also, I had a fantastic workout today :) 8.25 miles. Go me!

Also, my daughter is awesome...

also, I am so looking forward to getitng my crafts to 20 :P


NOW who's trolling?

I bet you didn't even do a foot over FIVE miles. Pshaw!
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#139 Feb 09 2011 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
44 posts
Pix? And is the question about couples in regards to a potential four-way? lemme know!
#140 Feb 09 2011 at 4:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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3,178 posts
Ah! Very nice. Well done sir. A bit of humor goes a long way. :)
#141 Feb 09 2011 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,609 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
RufuSwho wrote:
Didn't anyone tell you? When you copy/paste a dictionary definition in a forum post to prove your point you automatically lose.


Are you SURE about that?

Rootbeer and Captain |roōt; roŏt||bi(ə)r||and||ˈkaptən|
noun
•The tastiest known beverage on the face of the earth: "I want to drown in Rootbeer and Captain!"
•Proof that God wants man to be happy: "Thank God for Rootbeer and Captain."
•What one would say when erroneously served a Rum Runner: "I said Rootbeer and Captain, dammit!"


LillithaFenimore wrote:
I wonder if he actually things people will go through this entire thread...I sure as **** have not...

Since this thread really doesn't have anything to do with adding any sort of helpfulness in regard to this game in it...let me start by trying to derail it...

Any couples here that play this game who is on trabia?

Also, I had a fantastic workout today :) 8.25 miles. Go me!

Also, my daughter is awesome...

also, I am so looking forward to getitng my crafts to 20 :P


NOW who's trolling?

I bet you didn't even do a foot over FIVE miles. Pshaw!


Trolling, nah, just joining in the shanagins :P And you are just jealous :P Wish me luck for hitting 8.5 tomorrow!

Seikninkuru wrote:
Pix? And is the question about couples in regards to a potential four-way? lemme know!


LOL Wow, didn't think me asking if there were other couples would even hint at that, however thanks for the compliment XD I was just curious to see if there were others on the Trabia server to relate to is all :)

RufuSwho wrote:
Ah! Very nice. Well done sir. A bit of humor goes a long way. :)



Indeed!
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"I've never watched a nuclear explosion myself. That's a couple of degrees of stupid above my limit"- Old Man Harris
#142 Feb 09 2011 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
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435 posts
LillithaFenimore wrote:
Trolling, nah, just joining in the shanagins :P And you are just jealous :P Wish me luck for hitting 8.5 tomorrow!


Hehe, I know. :)

Keep at it. Don't EVER let it fall behind. I was "captain fitness" until I took on a 2nd job and a girlfriend and, well, you'd be surprised how fast it can get away from you.

Seikninkuru wrote:
LOL Wow, didn't think me asking if there were other couples would even hint at that, however thanks for the compliment XD I was just curious to see if there were others on the Trabia server to relate to is all :)


There's a hilarious craiglist post to be made here somewhere...

"L4M = Lalafell seeking Miqo'te"
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#143 Feb 09 2011 at 6:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,609 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:
Trolling, nah, just joining in the shanagins :P And you are just jealous :P Wish me luck for hitting 8.5 tomorrow!


Hehe, I know. :)

Keep at it. Don't EVER let it fall behind. I was "captain fitness" until I took on a 2nd job and a girlfriend and, well, you'd be surprised how fast it can get away from you.

Seikninkuru wrote:
LOL Wow, didn't think me asking if there were other couples would even hint at that, however thanks for the compliment XD I was just curious to see if there were others on the Trabia server to relate to is all :)


There's a hilarious craiglist post to be made here somewhere...

"L4M = Lalafell seeking Miqo'te"



Yeah I used to workout a lot before my husband and I were expecting...then had to do the tiny baby thing for a year before I could go back...and I can't do half the stuff I want to do because life is a bit more complicated...so I'll take running over nothing :)
____________________________


"I've never watched a nuclear explosion myself. That's a couple of degrees of stupid above my limit"- Old Man Harris
#144 Feb 09 2011 at 6:34 PM Rating: Good
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211 posts
RufuSwho wrote:
Tiger, while your prose is eloquent, I find that you are taking this topic entirely too seriously. I doubt many people have read this entire thread word for word in an attempt to actually gain some understanding into your point of view. I did.

You make some pretty strong assumtions sir. About what the developers were thinking, about why they are doing what they are doing now. About the thoughts of your fellow gamers.

Tiger228 wrote:
so I'm not worried about nitpicking terminology.


I call BS on that. See how irritating it is to quote someone out of context? Of course not. Next you will pick apart the word irritating or quote or context or it or is or someone or see.

Look man, I too am bored at work and have a wealth of thoughts about FFXIV. Sharing them on the ZAM forum is perfectly acceptable. Your agressive tone may be entertaining, but I see bit by bit you are getting too big for your cotton breeches (red).

Did you even read my post about Root Beer and Captain? That sh*t is delicious.

hehe... Yes, I'm aware that I have a very argumentative tone sometimes, but it belies my generally playful attitude. It's just in my nature. To be honest it's not that I'm taking this thread too seriously, I just enjoy an occasional drawn out argument from time to time. If I think I'm wrong I'll concede, and if I tire of it I'll just sort of taper off... But I've argued smaller things both in real life and on the internet, some people are just prone to that. I don't at all blame those who aren't like that for taking one glance at this thread and bailing on it though. XD

And yes I read your post about root beer and captain. I prefer either lionshead beer or parrot bay and coke, but I wouldn't turn one of those captain root beers down if it was passed my way. :P

Anyways, back to the massive walls of text. XD

TheRealDestian wrote:

1. What is your past MMO experience? How many MMOs have you played total and for how long?

FFXI for about 3 years. WoW for about 3 months.(but with the triple exp from joining via my friends referral, that was more than enough time to see pretty much the whole game) Some F2P mmo's which were garbage, and Diablo 1 and 2 if you even count those. I also looked into a lot of other games, such as Aion, Warhammer, DoC, Rift, PerfectWorld, and pretty much all the others I've heard of though I don't remember all the names. Point is, I saw enough to know they weren't what I was looking for. Usually because they either looked shallow, gimmicky, too PvP focused, or just a blatant WoW clone.

TheRealDestian wrote:

2. What was your favorite MMO before FFXIV?

FFXI.

TheRealDestian wrote:

3. What do you like about FFXIV that makes you so enamored to it?

I could write a whole book on the differences. But these posts seem long enough without it. So in short:

FFXIV feels like an RPG, and a lot of the other games feel like an action or hack and slash game with RPG elements. The community in WoW for example, was so awful that a simple hello was often greeted by things like "shut up ***". The endgame design that SE has has proven way more my style than the alternatives. And believe it or not, I actually like the FF mmo UI's, aside from the lag at launch, and a bit of missing polish... But it's designed for gamepad users, where as many mmo's don't even support gamepads, crippling my play value right there.

TheRealDestian wrote:

I feel that a lot of the problems FFXIV is having right now initially stemmed from wanting to be TOO different. Yoshi-P even commented upon this recently, saying that being different just for the sake of being different was a bad idea and led to many poor design choices (such as the market ward system which many, MANY people still think should go away.

I agreed completely when that Yoshi-P guy said that, and thought it even before that. FFXI did a lot of things right that they should have carried over. It seems now they are relenting and doing just that, and I'm all for it, at least in certain areas.

And I hated the wards system. It attempted to circumvent the concept of supply and demand, in an effort to reduce undercutting. But, I still like the fact that SE had the balls to try something new, I'm just glad they are willing to compromise and change the stuff that doesn't work.

Right now, all the wards need is a method to buy things without actually hunting down the retainer, and a price history, and it will be better than the old FFXI AH. Using retainers instead of AH slots allows you to purchase single items from a stack, instead of either just one at a time, or the whole stack. A significant improvement for both the buyer and seller. Also, it allows you more slots, and does away with the annoyance of relisting, and paying additional tax on the higher priced but slower selling items which will inevitably be added. It was a tough road for a while, and still is to a point, but in the end we will likely get a better system than if they just ripped the FFXI AH out of that game and into this one.

TheRealDestian wrote:

I agree with your stance that this is a good SHELL of a game, but that's still all they really have right now. I don't think we've reached the point where we can even say what will or won't happen.

Yes, that's what I consider it too. But, I still enjoy this shell of a game more than other complete games. That's all I was saying to begin with. And that's the part of it I kept stressing was subjective. My personal taste. The numbers they get from the polls are objective, the money they need to make to turn a profit is objective, how much I enjoy this game as-is is subjective. They can keep changing the game, and I'll subjectively decide whether or not I like the changes, and that will decide whether or not I continue playing it. If I don't like where it goes, well it was fun while it lasted and I'll move on. I like where it's going so far though.


TheRealDestian wrote:
Where are YOUR suggestions to improve this game? It's funny: I see so many posters in this forum going on and on about how much they want to help FFXIV and then their names seldom if ever pop up in the ACTUAL feedback forum.

Let me guess: you've submitted your feedback directly to SE, right? Uh huh, sure...


I have posted plenty of feedback. Not all of it was in the feedback forum, and I don't usually create topics for it, aside from one about repair kits and one about a golden saucer, which was basically just a suggestion for some novelty to be added to the game down the road when ishgard opens up. Still though, I have posted feedback, and I took the poll SE held, but in general, given the difference between SE's experience with making games and my own, I'm content to let them do most of the design work themselves.

But as a quick summery, I'm generally in favor of a stronger focus on party based activities, challenging content, strategic battles over the hack and slash 'mash 1111' method, more engaging and unique leves,(since right now they are just as bad as the xp quest grinds in WoW) and of course, plenty of content at a good pace. There's plenty of smaller nitpicks but I'm not gonna bother listing them all.

TheRealDestian wrote:
"FFXIV Fanboy" is not a race.

Get over your ******* persecution complex so we can get back to having a meaningful discussion, please.


I never said fanboys were a race. I said that derogatory blanket generalizations about groups of people was not a respectable way to start, continue, or win an argument, and that the same concept was often used in racism, which it is. Again, you can split hairs all you want, the whole fan vs flea thing was a crock of sh*t, and there's no disguising it. You can either admit that, or we can stop bringing it up, but I'm not conceding that point no matter how you cut it.

TheRealDestian wrote:
I'm not sure if that definition applies to you (I'm only now starting to see just what it is you're arguing), but trust me, these people exist.

I'm not saying they don't. They're basically trolls coming from a different direction. I don't care if a troll uses a god **** siege tunnel, they're still trolling regardless of where they're coming from. But don't go lumping everyone who sees something in a different light, or has different tastes, in with trolling. Doing that is in itself an act of trolling. :P

TheRealDestian wrote:
but I think Tiger and I might actually be close to seeing eye to eye here.

hehe.. I don't think we are very close to seeing eye to eye entirely, but there are certain things we agree on... We could always agree to disagree on the rest. But at least the argument seems to be taking a lighter tone. :P


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#145 Feb 09 2011 at 7:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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225 posts
RufuSwho wrote:
This is an awesome thread. Warping logic to fit your own needs is hugely entertaining for both the writer and the reader. Keep it coming!

I like Cola, but I like Root Beer more. I walk into a bar and ask if they have Root Beer. (If I get a dirty look I settle for a Captain and Coke.) Otherwise, I order a Captain and Root Beer. I call this a Captain's Treasure. Did you know Root Beer and Rum are both sugar cane products? Just different stages of fermentation. Delicious.

I was going to try to wrap that into the soda analogy but I've decided I can't be bothered.

Back to it then.


White Birch Beer is better than Root Beer.
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#146 Feb 09 2011 at 7:37 PM Rating: Good
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800 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
No, you have that completely wrong, actually...

First, please quote where I said that players "shouldn't enjoy FFXIV". I've said many times that I enjoy FFXIV. Why do people keep drawing the conclusion that I'm advocating disliking the game?


You're right, you said that people who enjoy the game as is and have no criticism of it are hurting it. Do you even remember your OP here? Remember how you demeaned an entire group, albeit a small one, for unconditionally liking FFXIV?

The whole premise of your fan vs. flea idiocy is based on the assumption that SE is going to ignore the vast majority of people with concerns for FFXIV and instead blindly listen to an incredibly small group of people to base their development, or lack thereof, on. Don't you see how stupid that is? Do you honestly think SE is that blind? Assuming you don't, then who the heck cares if some people worship the ground SE walks on? Who cares if some people think FFXIV is perfect just the way it is? What does it matter to you? It is NOT determining the development of FFXIV, Yoshida has made it clear he wants to please the majority, not the minority. So why do you want to "change the ways of fleas"?

I can't help but think this this whole "flea" thing is just an elaborate way troll fanboys, white knights, etc. I'm still waiting for you to prove me wrong.
#147 Feb 09 2011 at 8:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
BadJoRed wrote:
we should let this stupid thread die :)
thanks


No way! I'm quite enjoying watching Tiger absolutely steamroll Destian. Keep it up guys!

Hahahah indeed,this thread is pure win.
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#148 Feb 09 2011 at 10:42 PM Rating: Decent
28 posts
this just in: Im still too lazy to read through all 3 pages of posts.. <3
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#149 Feb 09 2011 at 11:07 PM Rating: Decent
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435 posts
LillithaFenimore wrote:
Yeah I used to workout a lot before my husband and I were expecting...then had to do the tiny baby thing for a year before I could go back...and I can't do half the stuff I want to do because life is a bit more complicated...so I'll take running over nothing :)


I know how it is.

My fiancee and I just went gym-hunting today because we decided we just HAD to get back into it.

Tiger228 wrote:
FFXIV feels like an RPG, and a lot of the other games feel like an action or hack and slash game with RPG elements. The community in WoW for example, was so awful that a simple hello was often greeted by things like "shut up ***". The endgame design that SE has has proven way more my style than the alternatives. And believe it or not, I actually like the FF mmo UI's, aside from the lag at launch, and a bit of missing polish... But it's designed for gamepad users, where as many mmo's don't even support gamepads, crippling my play value right there.


So you lean toward the PVE side of things? I can see why WoW, Aion, EVE, etc. wouldn't at all be your thing, then.

For the record, my favorite MMO of all time is Clan Lord, which in its heyday was the best community-focused PvE MMO I've ever seen. Shame of it is that the population is so low these days that it's barely still going. It's also been made free to play which means the devs have little incentive to do much for the game.

It was, however, the most story-driven MMO I've ever played, as GM interactions with players and REAL role-playing were commonplace. You could actually have an impact upon the world, one that would LAST, something that no other MMO I've seen has ever done.

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I agreed completely when that Yoshi-P guy said that, and thought it even before that. FFXI did a lot of things right that they should have carried over. It seems now they are relenting and doing just that, and I'm all for it, at least in certain areas.

And I hated the wards system. It attempted to circumvent the concept of supply and demand, in an effort to reduce undercutting. But, I still like the fact that SE had the balls to try something new, I'm just glad they are willing to compromise and change the stuff that doesn't work.


I'm glad they're trying new things. They just needed to try new things while still maintaining a certain amount of usability on the part of the player.

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Yes, that's what I consider it too. But, I still enjoy this shell of a game more than other complete games. That's all I was saying to begin with. And that's the part of it I kept stressing was subjective. My personal taste. The numbers they get from the polls are objective, the money they need to make to turn a profit is objective, how much I enjoy this game as-is is subjective. They can keep changing the game, and I'll subjectively decide whether or not I like the changes, and that will decide whether or not I continue playing it. If I don't like where it goes, well it was fun while it lasted and I'll move on. I like where it's going so far though.


As long as you get that, then my concerns are unwarranted. I apologize for using your post as an example, but it was one of those things where I read it and my eyes popped out of my head and I overreacted.

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But as a quick summery, I'm generally in favor of a stronger focus on party based activities, challenging content, strategic battles over the hack and slash 'mash 1111' method, more engaging and unique leves,(since right now they are just as bad as the xp quest grinds in WoW) and of course, plenty of content at a good pace. There's plenty of smaller nitpicks but I'm not gonna bother listing them all.


Why hold back? If you have good things to say, say them. Even "nitpicks" collected in a thread are solid feedback, as a nitpick for one player might irritate the **** out of other players. If you have criticism, let it fly.

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I never said fanboys were a race. I said that derogatory blanket generalizations about groups of people was not a respectable way to start, continue, or win an argument, and that the same concept was often used in racism, which it is. Again, you can split hairs all you want, the whole fan vs flea thing was a crock of sh*t, and there's no disguising it. You can either admit that, or we can stop bringing it up, but I'm not conceding that point no matter how you cut it.


Honestly, my hope was that the reaction to the thread would be everyone saying, "Well, that definitely isn't me!".

In this case, though, I'd say a sweeping generalization would be more akin to racial stereotypes, like saying all Italians love to cook.

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I'm not saying they don't. They're basically trolls coming from a different direction. I don't care if a troll uses a god **** siege tunnel, they're still trolling regardless of where they're coming from. But don't go lumping everyone who sees something in a different light, or has different tastes, in with trolling. Doing that is in itself an act of trolling. :P


Trolls are basically the anti-flea, but on the other end of the spectrum into the other side of the same evil coin. Fans fall in the middle and frequently find themselves attacked by both sides.

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hehe.. I don't think we are very close to seeing eye to eye entirely, but there are certain things we agree on... We could always agree to disagree on the rest. But at least the argument seems to be taking a lighter tone. :P


Yeah, I think we'll be fine from here on in.

I had a feeling it would come to that, though. I've never argued this vehemently with anyone who I didn't befriend later (really, it's like clockwork).

Spyrit178 wrote:
White Birch Beer is better than Root Beer.


OH SH*T!! THEM'S FIGHTIN' WORDS!!!

Hydragyrum wrote:
You're right, you said that people who enjoy the game as is and have no criticism of it are hurting it. Do you even remember your OP here? Remember how you demeaned an entire group, albeit a small one, for unconditionally liking FFXIV?


There's nothing wrong with unconditionally liking FFXIV. It's "siding" with it and defending it like it's a part of your very being that denotes the flea behavior, especially when that means attacking people who are having problems with the game because they "don't get it" or are "doing it wrong".

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The whole premise of your fan vs. flea idiocy is based on the assumption that SE is going to ignore the vast majority of people with concerns for FFXIV and instead blindly listen to an incredibly small group of people to base their development, or lack thereof, on. Don't you see how stupid that is? Do you honestly think SE is that blind? Assuming you don't, then who the heck cares if some people worship the ground SE walks on? Who cares if some people think FFXIV is perfect just the way it is? What does it matter to you? It is NOT determining the development of FFXIV, Yoshida has made it clear he wants to please the majority, not the minority. So why do you want to "change the ways of fleas"?


I care because, since fleas tend to be very dedicated, it would be better if we converted them into fans where they would then feel secure in reporting bugs, suggesting fixes, etc.

The goal of this thread was never to drive fleas away but to make anyone who was even leaning toward behaving like that to see it and lean back the other way. I'm a recovered flea myself so I know it can happen.

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I can't help but think this this whole "flea" thing is just an elaborate way troll fanboys, white knights, etc. I'm still waiting for you to prove me wrong.


Be honest with me here: what could I POSSIBLY say to convince you?
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#150 Feb 10 2011 at 6:49 AM Rating: Good
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800 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
I care because, since fleas tend to be very dedicated, it would be better if we converted them into fans where they would then feel secure in reporting bugs, suggesting fixes, etc.

The goal of this thread was never to drive fleas away but to make anyone who was even leaning toward behaving like that to see it and lean back the other way. I'm a recovered flea myself so I know it can happen.


You're still acting like being a "flea" is a bad thing. In what other field besides video games is being dedicated to one particular product a bad thing? And no, SE does not need every last player reporting bugs and suggesting fixes. They have plenty of reports and suggestions to keep them busy. It's really ok if 5% (if it's even that large) of the population thinks this game is better than sliced bread. Please, tell me why defending FFXIV is a bad thing.

If you get offended or insulted or in some other way can't handle the very minor group of people whose attitude is that this game is better than anything else out there, then that's your own personal problem. Their attitude will have zero impact on game play or development. There's no reason to "change" them other than your own personal little inquisition here.

TheRealDestian wrote:
Be honest with me here: what could I POSSIBLY say to convince you?


That's for you to figure out, not me.

Edited, Feb 10th 2011 6:50am by Hydragyrum
#151 Feb 10 2011 at 7:41 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
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386 posts
Quote:
I care because, since fleas tend to be very dedicated, it would be better if we converted them into fans where they would then feel secure in reporting bugs, suggesting fixes, etc.

The goal of this thread was never to drive fleas away but to make anyone who was even leaning toward behaving like that to see it and lean back the other way. I'm a recovered flea myself so I know it can happen.


If you don't want to drive them away, not calling them "fleas" might be a good way to start. You can sugar coat it with whatever reasoning you want, but in my humble opinion, it's distasteful and disrespectful to the audience you're trying to address.
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