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#1 Feb 06 2011 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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I enjoy many aspects of FFXIV but the thing I miss most about FFXI are the parties. I'm glad that we can solo play and that you can accomplish almost anything in a short amount of time but I miss the strategy of camping. I would like to see more traditional battling like FFXI. Creating parties was fun for me. Trying to balance the right jobs and skills. I also liked the roles that each player had within the group. The downside was that if one person sucked it could ruin a party. However, when everything clicked you could almost feel your EXP gain. That is just one element that XIV doesn't have yet. I hope they find a way to make camping and parties a bigger element in the future.

Am I alone on this? I just wondered if anyone agreed. I'm not saying I want FFXIV to be exactly like FFXI or I would play XI. I just miss the party element. I feel like "Behest" is just running around in a swarm killing stuff but I don't see any strategy to it. I see the same problem with leves.

I know there are plans to redo the battle system and hopefully add more quests and content but I haven't heard anything about how they are going to change it. Anyone have any thoughts? I am not as diligent as some in reading forums or scouring the internet for information but if you have thoughts about how to change the battle system and bring back some of the strategy, I'm listening.

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#2 Feb 06 2011 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
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Creating parties was fun for me.

Am I alone on this?


Not signing it. The downsides beat the advantages. Therefore, I would not like to see this kind of playstyle come back. Especially..

Quote:
I also liked the roles that each player had within the group.


"Oh, no refresher lfp? Oh well, gotta disband."

"Oh, no tank lfp? Oh well, gotta disband."

"Oh, no DD lfp? One will surely pop up in a min..."

*2 hours later*

"What if I invite this paladin and ask him to DD for us??"

If you want "strategy", this is not the way to go.
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#3 Feb 06 2011 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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kainsilv wrote:
I enjoy many aspects of FFXIV but the thing I miss most about FFXI are the parties.


You kind of can create a similar XI style pt in XIV now with this recent patch. :)

I too really enjoyed XI parties and I can't just grind on weak mobs, but what you can do now is look for a mob ranging 10-20 ranks higher than you, and take a group of six out there to kill them. I have been doing that the past few days on Grass Raptors / Anoles and its been quite fun and rewarding! Now of course, I would love if they added a way to seek for a party.
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#4 Feb 06 2011 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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One of the things SE is working on is adding uniqueness to each class. Right now it doesn't matter who is in your party. As long as you have either a thaumaturge or conjurer and someone with taunt, your party can work. I hope they make each class really stand out in each category so that you will want to have one of each in your party. I also hope SE scraps battle regiments and return to skill chains. That will ensure party variety.
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#5 Feb 06 2011 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
"Oh, no refresher lfp? Oh well, gotta disband."

"Oh, no tank lfp? Oh well, gotta disband."

"Oh, no DD lfp? One will surely pop up in a min..."

*2 hours later*

"What if I invite this paladin and ask him to DD for us??"

If you want "strategy", this is not the way to go.


I can understand that point of view. Although...

1. Refresh does not exist in XIV and who needs it with all the MP recharge abilities available
2. The new class system is much more flexible so I'm not sure that parties would really be stuck waiting for a specific job. You can change abilities without having to run to you mog house.
3. I think SE addresses the problem of just standing around waiting with leves and behests. They made it possible to get almost anything done in a relatively short time.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just trying to get an idea of what a more strategic battle system would even look like in XIV. What elements would it have? How would it work?
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#6 Feb 06 2011 at 9:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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2. The new class system is much more flexible so I'm not sure that parties would really be stuck waiting for a specific job. You can change abilities without having to run to you mog house.


When making a party, was this ever an issue? "I'd invite your RDM but you'd have to run to mog house so let's just forget about it although you're already in town LFG'ing". Not to mention if someone is LFG on WHM, he wants to level WHM, not RDM.

The new class system stops being flexible when they make "each class really stand out in each category". Gladiator(Paladin) is "the tank" of the game now? Good luck inviting Marauder(Warrior) or Pugilist(Monk) to tank.

Quote:
I'm just trying to get an idea of what a more strategic battle system would even look like in XIV.


Some things: make more battles with groups of monsters. Change the way pathing works so it makes more sense. Make it easier to move around in the battlefield. Make situational attacks more valuable (by doing #1, #2 and #3). Weaken the effect of AoE heals. Boost single target heals slightly. Improve the direction and position based gameplay (attack from behind > ambush monsters (same for players). Create "formations" that have different effects on the battle). Make spells cost slightly more MP and balance the MP usage/restore ratio so that players need to think about how to conserve their MP and clear groups of monsters effectively.

In the end, large groups of "decent challenge" to "tough" monsters will create sufficient challenge without pigeon holing classes into certain roles. Of course you can't have mechanics like Sleepga or Lullaby because that basically ruins the whole idea because you can just kill the monsters one by one while the rest of the group sleeps.

Just some ideas. I do think this game's future lies in the way many vs. many battles will function.

Edited, Feb 6th 2011 6:45pm by Hyanmen
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#7 Feb 06 2011 at 9:54 AM Rating: Default
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I really hated earlier in FFXI that DD's had to sub NIN...I'm glad SE changed that in TOAU release.

Edited, Feb 6th 2011 10:55am by VitaminD2112
#8 Feb 06 2011 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
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VitaminD2112 wrote:
I really hated earlier in FFXI that DD's had to sub NIN...I'm glad SE changed that in TOAU release.

Edited, Feb 6th 2011 10:55am by VitaminD2112


ToAU was the reason for the big push for /nin. ToAU was the reason tank jobs weren't needed, squishy meritpo mobs + 4 DD/nin + BRD + RDM.
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#9 Feb 06 2011 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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ToAU was the reason for the big push for /nin. ToAU was the reason tank jobs weren't needed, squishy meritpo mobs + 4 DD/nin + BRD + RDM.


Suuure, that didn't happen with Sky and KRT (and to some part, Uleguerand) already. It was already evident even before ToAU came out that this is the way to go.
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#10 Feb 06 2011 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Creating parties was fun for me.

Am I alone on this?


Not signing it. The downsides beat the advantages. Therefore, I would not like to see this kind of playstyle come back. Especially..

Quote:
I also liked the roles that each player had within the group.


"Oh, no refresher lfp? Oh well, gotta disband."

"Oh, no tank lfp? Oh well, gotta disband."

"Oh, no DD lfp? One will surely pop up in a min..."

*2 hours later*

"What if I invite this paladin and ask him to DD for us??"

If you want "strategy", this is not the way to go.

^
Where's the upside?
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#11 Feb 06 2011 at 11:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah I do really miss that aspect of FFXI.

To be totally honest, if they rolled FFXI back to CoP and somehow the population went up, I'd go back to that game in a heartbeat.

That's just me though, I'm a total niche gamer... I'd do the same thing with Perfect Dark Zero for console games. Seems like the gaming industry just isn't on the same page as me, since 95% of the games/content we get now is like the opposite of what I want.

I was and still am hoping that FFXIV can be the exception, and offer me some gameplay that will keep me gaming. Every other mmo out there right now is so far from what I want that I'd quit gaming before playing them, and the non mmo games are just as bad. Not having mainstream tastes in games really sucks. :P
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#12 Feb 06 2011 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
ToAU was the reason for the big push for /nin. ToAU was the reason tank jobs weren't needed, squishy meritpo mobs + 4 DD/nin + BRD + RDM.


Suuure, that didn't happen with Sky and KRT (and to some part, Uleguerand) already. It was already evident even before ToAU came out that this is the way to go.


It wasn't as big as it was until ToAU came out, sure it started before, but treasures pushed that even more just because it was faster kills then ever before.
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#13 Feb 06 2011 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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It wasn't as big as it was until ToAU came out, sure it started before, but treasures pushed that even more just because it was faster kills then ever before.


Tank jobs were already pretty **** niche before it. Maybe Lufaise parties still had one. All the unpopular jobs went there. Oh, the good old times of "you're not a Monk, Ranger, Warrior, Black Mage or Ninja? Go to Lufaise with Summoners and Paladins."

Criticizing ToAU for making other jobs more popular again is silly.
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#14 Feb 06 2011 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
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Good thoughts! I agree with everything you mentioned. Although, you bring up an interesting point in my mind at least. What would a battle against say... the Shadow Lord or Diabolos look like in FFXIV? I'm grateful for the additional flexiblity and I agree that larger scale battles will probably be a part of strategy within XIV but I think you have to have a certain measure of "pigeon holing". The party dynamics and strategy are what made XI great. While we may not have liked that RDM got sucked into becoming a "Refresh" fiend instead of more front line role I think the class system provides the ability to adjust party dyanamics between battles. If one dynamic isn't working you don't necessarily have to find a different DoW or DoM. You can simply adjust active abilities. I still think you need tanking jobs and mage jobs.

Positioning, formations and pathing make sense and they add an element of strategy but I don't think it is enough. The teamwork by timing attacks, controlling aggro and the unique abilities of each job working in unison made partying "fun". I need something of that back because I don't have it in XIV.

What are the other elements of battle strategy that are missing? Maybe it is just all personal preference but I liked having a specific role in the party (ie. Tank, puller, DD, Healer, Buff/debuffer). Maybe it is just all the running around I don't know. I did like the old "camp" and "pull" system.

Just more ramblings...
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#15 Feb 06 2011 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
It wasn't as big as it was until ToAU came out, sure it started before, but treasures pushed that even more just because it was faster kills then ever before.


Tank jobs were already pretty **** niche before it. Maybe Lufaise parties still had one. All the unpopular jobs went there. Oh, the good old times of "you're not a Monk, Ranger, Warrior, Black Mage or Ninja? Go to Lufaise with Summoners and Paladins."

Criticizing ToAU for making other jobs more popular again is silly.


I was criticizing ToAU for making other jobs more popular? ummm no. I simply said that ToAU pushed DD/nin harder then it was before it's release in response to "I really hated earlier in FFXI that DD's had to sub NIN...I'm glad SE changed that in TOAU release." because ToAU made the need to /nin even more popular.
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#16 Feb 06 2011 at 11:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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because ToAU made the need to /nin even more popular.


Not for all jobs. 2 handers received /SAM.

Quote:
What would a battle against say... the Shadow Lord or Diabolos look like in FFXIV?


I guess it could be like.. Shadow lord and his minions-type of encounter. However, I'm not against fights against a single uber-hard monster like in XI, but those kind of encounters usually demand more specialization from your party so they should be saved for special occasions like the Shadow lord battle for example. As long as the majority of gameplay doesn't revolve around this kind of setting it should be fine.

Quote:
I'm grateful for the additional flexiblity and I agree that larger scale battles will probably be a part of strategy within XIV but I think you have to have a certain measure of "pigeon holing". I still think you need tanking jobs and mage jobs.


Well, lancers, marauders, pugilists and gladiators are probably going to end up as "tanking jobs" as well as "dps jobs". Mage jobs are pretty clear. The difference being, that instead of every class having one role and there being 4 roles in total, each class can pull off many roles if needed. Doesn't mean they always will, but they can if needed. I think this is important for the ease of making and joining groups.

Quote:
Positioning, formations and pathing make sense and they add an element of strategy but I don't think it is enough. The teamwork by timing attacks, controlling aggro and the unique abilities of each job working in unison made partying "fun". I need something of that back because I don't have it in XIV.


Sure, I want them to do something about Battle Regimens (maybe make it work better for the many vs many encounter-mindset).

Quote:
What are the other elements of battle strategy that are missing? Maybe it is just all personal preference but I liked having a specific role in the party (ie. Tank, puller, DD, Healer, Buff/debuffer).


These roles will be assigned when there is a reason for it. Right now the difficulty is insufficient and monsters come in groups of 3? 4? max. The important thing is that not every class is designed for one role only so the flexibility is kept. You may be able to take on different roles even on the same class depending on what the situation needs. This, I think, works much better than having to look for a specific job that alone is able to pull the needed role effectively.

Edited, Feb 6th 2011 9:06pm by Hyanmen
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#17 Feb 06 2011 at 11:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
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because ToAU made the need to /nin even more popular.


Not for all jobs. 2 handers received /SAM.


I was in a lot of parties reg and merit that had even 2handers /nin, this was even after SAM got upgrades. Not that I agreed with DRG/NIN, /SAM WAS the obvious better choice for DD, but when hate was being traded /NIN was prefered to keep a "tank"less party from being an mp sink.


Edited, Feb 6th 2011 12:37pm by AnnabelleCloud
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#18 Feb 06 2011 at 11:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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I do agree with the general thought that partying FFXI style was fun. I enjoy grouping, gathering, traveling to a camp, each player knowing their role (they don't have to be cookie cutter like they were in FFXI where you need a super specific setup, but the idea that each party member knows they have an objective in battle primary over just doing damage, etc.) and the grind. Yes, I enjoyed the grind. Now, I don't think the grind should be the only way to level and I'm enjoying levequests as well and don't even mind the idea of SOME NPC quests yielding exp/sp, but the long party hours are where most of my closest friendships were forged. Joking around between mobs and during travel. People I partied with once or twice and enjoyed I'd look to invite again and eventually become good friends with. If it wasn't for the fact that we were spending hours grinding out the levels I'd have never become as friendly as I did with several excellent people. I don't think there needs to be AS much of a grind, but it's part of the MMO experience and I don't mind it.

I also miss the AH. The market wards aren't a bad idea; it's kind of essentially the bazaar fields outside of Jeuno which existed in spite of the AH in FFXI. I just think that the AH is a much more coherent and convenient method of circulating gear and items for the player base. There's no reason they can't have an AH and a market ward, necessarily, though I can see how the market ward is already becoming AH like and how they could make one another slightly redundant.

Obviously you don't want to make the game just like FFXI. I think the classes should remain different and unique and that a lot of the differences between the games should be maintained, but I don't mind the game's fundamentals being a repeat, or very similarly based off of, FFXI's core aspects. I basically was hoping FFXIV would be FFXIx2 HD.
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#19 Feb 06 2011 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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because ToAU made the need to /nin even more popular.


Not for all jobs. 2 handers received /SAM.


Very few meripo pt leaders would even ALLOW players to come /sam, because it was a major drain on mages MP when they pulled hate and would refuse to use seigan/third eye because it hurt their damage potential (there were a lot of really bad players from what I saw). Personally, I ALWAYS subbed sam on my war in meripo, or subbed war on sam, but that's because I wasn't some elitist jackass who refused to mitigate their damage so I could stroke my own epeen.

As far as ToAU, I have to agree that it increased the usage of /nin greatly.
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#20 Feb 06 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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I was in a lot of parties reg and merit that had even 2handers /nin, this was even after SAM got upgrades. Not that I agreed with DRG/NIN, /SAM WAS the obvious better choice for DD, but when hate was being traded /NIN was prefered to keep a "tank"less party from being an mp sink.


Well, that's not really the problem with the game as much as it's a problem with the community mindset. Everything was squishy enough for /nin to not be mandatory for 2 handers, but if you wanted to play it safe, you could.

I remember when DRK's had to dual wield axes for rampage... to get party to kill decorative weapons in sky.
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#21 Feb 06 2011 at 12:02 PM Rating: Default
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
ToAU was the reason for the big push for /nin. ToAU was the reason tank jobs weren't needed, squishy meritpo mobs + 4 DD/nin + BRD + RDM.


Suuure, that didn't happen with Sky and KRT (and to some part, Uleguerand) already. It was already evident even before ToAU came out that this is the way to go.
Except that wasn't the way to go. Subbing offensive subjobs, bouncing hate, and killing before the mob had a chance to do any significant harm was definitely superior.
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#22 Feb 06 2011 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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Except that wasn't the way to go. Subbing offensive subjobs, bouncing hate, and killing before the mob had a chance to do any significant harm was definitely superior.


Definitely, it took a while for this mindset to emerge though. As monsters became squishier, the need for /nin decreased as well.
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#23 Feb 06 2011 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Hyanmen wrote:
As monsters became squishier, the need for /nin decreased as well.
Yes, ToAU.
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#24 Feb 06 2011 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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I didn't disagree with you there lol.
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#25 Feb 06 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
because ToAU made the need to /nin even more popular.


Not for all jobs. 2 handers received /SAM.


Very few meripo pt leaders would even ALLOW players to come /sam,
because it was a major drain on mages MP when they pulled hate and would refuse to use seigan/third eye because it hurt their damage potential (there were a lot of really bad players from what I saw). Personally, I ALWAYS subbed sam on my war in meripo, or subbed war on sam, but that's because I wasn't some elitist jackass who refused to mitigate their damage so I could stroke my own epeen.

As far as ToAU, I have to agree that it increased the usage of /nin greatly.


Exactly. I can't even understand how this is debated. This was an absolute, emphatic demand made on all DD. /nin was the norm, period.
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#26 Feb 06 2011 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
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I'd only accept this method for boss battles or isolated areas. FFXI-styled parties took forever to set-up and demanded cookie-cutter combos, and with me actually having a life these days I am unwilling to make this a norm.
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#27 Feb 06 2011 at 1:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:

[quote]I also liked the roles that each player had within the group.


"Oh, no refresher lfp? Oh well, gotta disband."

"Oh, no tank lfp? Oh well, gotta disband."

"Oh, no DD lfp? One will surely pop up in a min..."

*2 hours later*

"What if I invite this paladin and ask him to DD for us??"

If you want "strategy", this is not the way to go.


You're right, it's much better to grab 5 amorphous gray blobs of DD, and a generic mage class since they both heal and whack on something until it's dead with no strategy required.


They made 3 classes cable of tanking, which was always the issue in starting parties. The only downside of the FFXI system is that certain classes (Blu, Pup, Bst, Thf, Pld in merits) were considered gimps, leeches, and wastes of party space by the masses due to poor PR.

As such, these classes would sit on the sidelines lfg all day.

I want diversity and clear cut roles.

Edited, Feb 6th 2011 2:51pm by Louiscool
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#28 Feb 06 2011 at 1:50 PM Rating: Default
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Vackashken wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
because ToAU made the need to /nin even more popular.


Not for all jobs. 2 handers received /SAM.


Very few meripo pt leaders would even ALLOW players to come /sam,
because it was a major drain on mages MP when they pulled hate and would refuse to use seigan/third eye because it hurt their damage potential (there were a lot of really bad players from what I saw). Personally, I ALWAYS subbed sam on my war in meripo, or subbed war on sam, but that's because I wasn't some elitist jackass who refused to mitigate their damage so I could stroke my own epeen.

As far as ToAU, I have to agree that it increased the usage of /nin greatly.


Exactly. I can't even understand how this is debated. This was an absolute, emphatic demand made on all DD. /nin was the norm, period.


My experience was much different I guess...

80 Pup Cor Rng Sam Drg Blu

The only job I full timed /nin was on Rng, for obvious Sidewinder related reasons. Some JP parties would ask me to /nin on sam or drg, but the onyl time I would hold hate for lengthy periods of time (I.E. not bouncing it) was when everyone else subbed ninja.

I started playing a bit before Aht Urghan so maybe everyone went nuts the day it came out and by the time I got to 60 the craze was over...

But I'm still just sick of how over-dramatized the /nin situation is/was. Lazy mages/lack of refresh: demand /nin, that's all.
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#29 Feb 06 2011 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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I want diversity and clear cut roles.


And I want to get somewhere when I play the game in a reasonable amount of time.

Maybe it isn't a downside for you, but it is a downside for me. And I doubt I am the only one.

Quote:
You're right, it's much better to grab 5 amorphous gray blobs of DD, and a generic mage class since they both heal and whack on something until it's dead with no strategy required.


Sounds like making a ToAU party except the mobs come in large groups this time without a way to Sleepga+ pick them one by one, making the fights more difficult. Yes, I'd be all up for that and I don't see why you consider Monks, DRK's, SAM's, DRG's, WAR's, NIN's and THF's (all DD + tanking) "gray blobs of DD". All of them could take hit and DD, and they weren't generic. Amazing, isn't it?
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#30 Feb 06 2011 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have no idea what the naysayers are speaking about. I've been setting up 6-person groups since the latest patch... Hardest part is not finding the right jobs, it's actually finding people who WANT to party.
#31 Feb 06 2011 at 2:20 PM Rating: Default
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Hyanmen wrote:

Sounds like making a ToAU party except the mobs come in large groups this time without a way to Sleepga+ pick them one by one, making the fights more difficult. Yes, I'd be all up for that and I don't see why you consider Monks, DRK's, SAM's, DRG's, WAR's, NIN's and THF's (all DD + tanking) "gray blobs of DD". All of them could take hit and DD, and they weren't generic. Amazing, isn't it?


I'm confused by this response.

I didn't call the FFXI jobs "gray blobs". Maybe it's a typo and you meant "i don't see why you DON'T"

These jobs were diverse in the way they were played. Maybe FXIV jobs diversify after 30 but everything I've played is identical. All jobs have a ws that can only be used after something else procs (Evade / Parry / Block / Miss) and feel generic.

I guess the same could be said about FFXI jobs until at least 20-30 and they didn't REALLY take off until post 37, because they were balanced to accommodate sub jobs.
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#32 Feb 06 2011 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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I didn't call the FFXI jobs "gray blobs". Maybe it's a typo and you meant "i don't see why you DON'T"


The concept is the same, implying that the fact that XIV classes are currently "gray blobs" has nothing to do with their roles, as jobs in XI had access to multiple roles at once as well as being put into the same party together with 1-2 mages yet they weren't considered "gray blobs" but unique enough to fulfill the same roles in a different way.

Which is why my opinion is that the lack of substance with the current XIV classes has nothing to do with their roles, but something else (what skills and spells they have, how they function/act and whether those functions are even necessary from the current gameplay's point of view for example).

I agree that as far as skills (or their mechanics) go, they need to do something about that. But the roles... the roles assigned to them aren't the culprit, I'd say. If there has to be specialization, I think specialization based on encounter would be better for the game than specialization based on the class. Former restricts the players much less than the latter, but still gives everyone a specific role to perform in, even though it might change from party to another.

To explain what I mean: In one party you might be assigned the role of off-tanking one, maybe two of 5 monsters with the second mage of the party while the rest of the group takes down the other monsters one by one. In the next party you may be assigned the role of the primary DD duoing monsters one by one with your main tank while the rest of the team is crowd-controlling and off-tanking the other monsters. Flexibility is there, but so are the clear roles for everyone involved.



Edited, Feb 6th 2011 11:33pm by Hyanmen
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#33 Feb 06 2011 at 8:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Let me play devil's advocate for a minute. What your suggesting sounds a little like a "Raid" in World of Warcraft. Is this maybe what company missions will be? While I'm not entirely opposed to the idea, I do want to maintain some feel of complexity of the party experience from XI.

MCraine wrote:
Yes, I enjoyed the grind. Now, I don't think the grind should be the only way to level and I'm enjoying levequests as well and don't even mind the idea of SOME NPC quests yielding exp/sp, but the long party hours are where most of my closest friendships were forged. Joking around between mobs and during travel. People I partied with once or twice and enjoyed I'd look to invite again and eventually become good friends with. If it wasn't for the fact that we were spending hours grinding out the levels I'd have never become as friendly as I did with several excellent people. I don't think there needs to be AS much of a grind, but it's part of the MMO experience and I don't mind it.


There may be something to this post.

However, I maintain from my earlier comment that positioning, formations and pathing make sense and they add an element of strategy but I don't think it is enough. The teamwork by timing attacks, controlling aggro and the unique abilities of each job working in unison made partying "fun". I need something of that back because I haven't found it in XIV.

Unfortunately, I don't have the answer.

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#34 Feb 06 2011 at 9:52 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
I want diversity and clear cut roles.

And where would you want this diversity and clear cut role to take place?

EXP/SP Grinding? Missions? Notorious Monster battles? Everything?
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#35 Feb 06 2011 at 10:16 PM Rating: Decent
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CarthRDM wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I want diversity and clear cut roles.

And where would you want this diversity and clear cut role to take place?

EXP/SP Grinding? Missions? Notorious Monster battles? Everything?


Of course everything.

I can't believe there's a group of people who want job A to be just like job B. If that's the case, why make a job system at all? If every job can be a jack of all trades, what is the point?


I want more job specific abilities, like Lancer's Life Surge / Speed Surge. Things that define a job and make you choose to level 1 job over another, or bring out a certain job to complete a specific task.

In FFXI, if I wanted to solo something I had many options. If it was kitable and susceptible to magic I would bring Pup with BLM frame and Hermes Sandals.

If it didn't do massive spike dmg I could potentially go Drg/Blu and survive with healign breaths.

Sam/Dnc was an option if it has long weapon delay or was evadable with enough evasion gear.

If it used magic, I could stun lock / silence on Blu with a haste setup / fast cast.


Right now I can't find 1 reason to level one job over another permanently. Sure, I level to unlock abilities, but every job can use them, so my choice is "what skills take the largest hit when 'subbed'"

Most specifically, the WS's like Feint. It's a lancer ability but as far as I can tell, there's no downside to using it on another job. It seems like Lnc is all about TP gain and Accuracy, but aside from the Surges any job can gear up like a lnc.


So you tell me. You want gray blobs or some definition?
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#36 Feb 06 2011 at 11:59 PM Rating: Good
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I can't believe there's a group of people who want job A to be just like job B. If that's the case, why make a job system at all? If every job can be a jack of all trades, what is the point?


There's a group of people who do not want every class to have clear cut roles. This doesn't mean "A job must be just like B job". Being a "jack of all trades" (which is not even true- Gladiator is no healer, nuker or buffer. Conjurer is no tank.) does not mean diversity can not exist. [Ex. PUP vs. RDM vs. BLU vs. SCH vs. DNC]

Diversity will do great things for this game. Clear cut class roles will not. This is just my opinion, but I really liked what they did with COR, BLU, PUP, DNC, SCH, and to some extent SMN. None of those jobs has just "one" role they can perform in, but they are still quite different from each other.

Edited, Feb 7th 2011 10:00am by Hyanmen
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#37 Feb 07 2011 at 12:26 AM Rating: Good
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I love exp parties, IMO this is what makes any MMO meaningful, is to play with many different people, and meeting new friends from all over the world. And this is what FFXIV is missing at the moment, the only group I can play with is with my LS, this limits me in reaching out to meet many more new players.

The 1st thing I do every time I get online is to search for parties, unfortunately there is always none available. The only thing I see is "LS ONLY" parties. You can call me insane, but I really missed the "waiting for party flag". I missed lfg while I craft.
I guess another reason why there isn't any party coming up from the search is that this game still tremendously lacking in population.
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#38 Feb 07 2011 at 12:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
CarthRDM wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I want diversity and clear cut roles.

And where would you want this diversity and clear cut role to take place?

EXP/SP Grinding? Missions? Notorious Monster battles? Everything?


Of course everything.

Then go back and play FFXI. The giant hindrance of FFXI is that you needed six or more people to do just about anything you needed to go in the game in a timely manner because the mobs were so difficult that having any less caused a giant waste of time. ToAU changed that (in a dramatic way) and it changed even further when Abyssea came out. This was obviously a concept issue with many people and SE decided to change that for FFXIV.

You're obviously missing the point of clear cut roles because you keep harping about the job system. When you demand clear cut roles you demand for jobs that fulfill the role to it's fullest. Remember all those 4x WAR/SAMs with BRD/NIN and RDM/WHM for merit parties? Yeah, that's what you're asking for. Those Paladins that wanna protect the party are worthless. Those White Mages that wanna heal are worthless because those parties demand for Red Mages instead.

Who gives a **** about diversity if you're going to put specific roles into all battles? It's FFXI all over again. What's the point?
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#39 Feb 07 2011 at 1:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
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ToAU was the reason for the big push for /nin. ToAU was the reason tank jobs weren't needed, squishy meritpo mobs + 4 DD/nin + BRD + RDM.


Suuure, that didn't happen with Sky and KRT (and to some part, Uleguerand) already. It was already evident even before ToAU came out that this is the way to go.


thats not the point. ToAU made it easy, accesible, and hence mainstream, and no one's looked back since.

its a pet peeve of mine when people intentionally ignore the point in order to show of their (irrelevant) knowledge.
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#40 Feb 07 2011 at 2:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Tiger228 wrote:

To be totally honest, if they rolled FFXI back to CoP and somehow the population went up, I'd go back to that game in a heartbeat.

I probably would, too. I'm still holding my fingers crossed we get to one day do something similar in FFXIV.

Edited, Feb 7th 2011 5:12am by Omena
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#41 Feb 07 2011 at 3:34 AM Rating: Good
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Actually i have partied FFXI style since the update last week. well not exactly FFXI style it was a sky pt style Roaming party if you guys can remember doing that kind of pt. I admit what is missing is the strategy part of game. then again maybe the strategy part isnt in making the party but in making your character. SE realized everyone was making cookie cutter characters(jobs) in FFXI. In fact i remember when i started playing ninja wasnt even a tank job yet. yes you read that right ninja wasnt even a tank when i started playing FFXI. they were pullers only. Yes i rememeber the long waits for pts and it being pot luck most of the time unless you had an awesome LS. my first job was DRK. oh the waits for parties i would endure. luckily i had a LS with 4 others around my lvl so we staticed to 75 from 66. Being a Rdm also i never had prob finding merit pts and such. BTW if you got your rdm to 75 it was a good reward never having to wait for pts seeing as how boring it was lvling it. anyway back to the topic yes i would like to see more definitive role for classes in this game but applaud SE for changing the way you can gain exp.

I perfer FFXI style pts cause a good pt would net you like 15k-25k exp an hour pre-merit lvl. and it was a great way to socialize. FFXIV pt style well there is none yet. just remember as lvls get higher the roles will be more defined. also remember the game is in its infantile stages with plenty of room to grow. we just need to make sure it grows up strong.enough rambling see on game peeps.
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#42 Feb 07 2011 at 7:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think we have to keep the current class system. The flexibility it allows is an improvement. Also, I think each class does have some unique abilities that we should highlight. On the FFXIV website it show(ed) a diagram of ranges for each class. Gladiator, Marauder and Pugilist are all close quarters combats while and LNC is more a mid-line job. Lastly, Mages and Archer are back-line. Hyanmen posted towards the beginning of this thread mentioning positioning and while I think he was talking more about elevation and critical hits from behind the mob I think you have also include more emphasis on these ranges.

Mind you these are just ideas and it might destroy the ability to solo leves if the implementation wasn’t balanced. So for example a LNC fighting in close quarters might not do as much damage as one standing a little farther back and behind a PUG for example. I think this encourages some strategy to the battle... yes? Now the amount of damage done should be dependent on the equipment, stats and current active abilities. So for example if a LNC has Cure equipped he receives a +MND bonus that is great if your are a mage but doesn’t help your character do damage. So there is strategy in the use of different abilities and customizing from different classes DoW provides more damage or defense depending on equipped abilities.

Then there are weaponskills. I say bring back the old timing system. Trying to use the battle regimen system is just not working for me and dare I speak for everyone? This also provides damage bonuses and encourages strategy as well as partying? Killing mobs faster is the reward and even faster XP/SP.

Okay... all that said I’m ready to hear criticism. Keep in mind my goal is to bring more strategic elements to party battles. I want a party feeling similar to FFXI. Not XI itself but some of the strategy I feel made partying “fun”. What am I missing? What else can we do to apply more strategy to fights and encourage party building.
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#43 Feb 07 2011 at 7:12 AM Rating: Default
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The problem with the skillchain system in FFXI is people learned it was worthless.

kainsilv wrote:
What am I missing? What else can we do to apply more strategy to fights and encourage party building.

Wait for more content. The game isn't even considered "fleshed out" yet.
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#44 Feb 07 2011 at 7:24 AM Rating: Good
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Then there are weaponskills. I say bring back the old timing system. Trying to use the battle regimen system is just not working for me and dare I speak for everyone? This also provides damage bonuses and encourages strategy as well as partying? Killing mobs faster is the reward and even faster XP/SP.


I don't think it can be converted 1=1 from XI, as skills are used much more frequently in this game as opposed to XI, making it very easy to ***** up your timing.

However, you could make BR's linked and ignore everyone else's attacks. Both of you need to activate BR, which means only you and your partner's skills are registered for the BR in question. The skills that other players of the party do can not interrupt the regimen, but they can still continue acting normally.

I also think it would be good if the BR's had AoE effects, as while one monster in this game is not that strong or needs the help of a BR to be defeated, it would be more beneficial to do a BR for larger group of mobs at once. The effects could be frontal or backwards cone as well to add more strategy. If the BR effects the whole group of mobs, it's much more useful.

Edited, Feb 7th 2011 4:24pm by Hyanmen
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#45 Feb 07 2011 at 7:43 AM Rating: Good
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Okay so I see your point about the Skillchains. However, part of the beauty of the system (XI) over the current battle regimen system was the ability to add on to someone else’s Skillchain. The battle regimen system is too rigid. As a mage if I saw a Skillchain I could toss in a spell randomly.

You could also tie elemental bonuses to equipped abilities so you could increase Skillchain damage based on the combination of abilities.
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#46 Feb 07 2011 at 7:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I can't believe there's a group of people who want job A to be just like job B. If that's the case, why make a job system at all? If every job can be a jack of all trades, what is the point?


There's a group of people who do not want every class to have clear cut roles. This doesn't mean "A job must be just like B job". Being a "jack of all trades" (which is not even true- Gladiator is no healer, nuker or buffer. Conjurer is no tank.) does not mean diversity can not exist. [Ex. PUP vs. RDM vs. BLU vs. SCH vs. DNC]

Diversity will do great things for this game. Clear cut class roles will not. This is just my opinion, but I really liked what they did with COR, BLU, PUP, DNC, SCH, and to some extent SMN. None of those jobs has just "one" role they can perform in, but they are still quite different from each other.

Edited, Feb 7th 2011 10:00am by Hyanmen


Quote:
Then go back and play FFXI. The giant hindrance of FFXI is that you needed six or more people to do just about anything you needed to go in the game in a timely manner because the mobs were so difficult that having any less caused a giant waste of time. ToAU changed that (in a dramatic way) and it changed even further when Abyssea came out. This was obviously a concept issue with many people and SE decided to change that for FFXIV.

You're obviously missing the point of clear cut roles because you keep harping about the job system. When you demand clear cut roles you demand for jobs that fulfill the role to it's fullest. Remember all those 4x WAR/SAMs with BRD/NIN and RDM/WHM for merit parties? Yeah, that's what you're asking for. Those Paladins that wanna protect the party are worthless. Those White Mages that wanna heal are worthless because those parties demand for Red Mages instead.

Who gives a sh*t about diversity if you're going to put specific roles into all battles? It's FFXI all over again. What's the point?


You both obviously misunderstand me. Job diversity IS "clear cut roles". Somehow you read this to mean "I want job A to perform only this role and never anything else." The flexibility in the job system is the best part of 14's battle system. But as it stands, there's only 3 muddy roles to perform in a party.

How does specific roles = TP Burns? All this hysteria is out of control. Right now the situation is closer to tp burns than anything else. 5 DD smack some cobylns until it dies.
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#47 Feb 07 2011 at 7:53 AM Rating: Default
kainsilv wrote:
Okay so I see your point about the Skillchains. However, part of the beauty of the system (XI) over the current battle regimen system was the ability to add on to someone else’s Skillchain. The battle regimen system is too rigid. As a mage if I saw a Skillchain I could toss in a spell randomly.

You could also tie elemental bonuses to equipped abilities so you could increase Skillchain damage based on the combination of abilities.


uhm... you can add spells in Battle Regimen....
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#48 Feb 07 2011 at 8:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Creating parties was fun for me.

Am I alone on this?


Not signing it. The downsides beat the advantages. Therefore, I would not like to see this kind of playstyle come back. Especially..

Quote:
I also liked the roles that each player had within the group.


"Oh, no refresher lfp? Oh well, gotta disband."

"Oh, no tank lfp? Oh well, gotta disband."

"Oh, no DD lfp? One will surely pop up in a min..."

*2 hours later*

"What if I invite this paladin and ask him to DD for us??"

If you want "strategy", this is not the way to go.


ok this game is not FFXI!!!!!

All melee MRD PUG and GLD can tank at the party level albeit with different efficiencies in mind.
There is no refresh in this game!!!
Both conj and Thaum can easily and I mean easily replenish mp by using siphon mp
and their mp refresh abilities evey 10 minutes.
This game is extremely flexible in that regard that in most pt situation anyone with over 1k hp can
take damage.
As well this game also promotes roaming parties, so finding a patch to exp and going around and fighting 2-3 different mobs with an area favouring one mob type popping consistently.

Please put your thoughts with the part of your mind that that has new ideas and not stuck on nostalgic fundamentals.

and FYI partying is faster sp than solo.


oh next your going to say mages should not heal either . . . . that is if they do not want to
well sometimes people have to fill roles they don't always like and that tends happen on the mage
end of things. So um ya pucker up!!


Edited, Feb 7th 2011 9:12am by Speeral
#49 Feb 07 2011 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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You both obviously misunderstand me. Job diversity IS "clear cut roles". Somehow you read this to mean "I want job A to perform only this role and never anything else." The flexibility in the job system is the best part of 14's battle system. But as it stands, there's only 3 muddy roles to perform in a party.


I think this is a problem with the encounters. Changing classes won't do much about that.. imo.
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#50 Feb 07 2011 at 8:53 AM Rating: Good
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LeilaniWildfire, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
kainsilv wrote:
Okay so I see your point about the Skillchains. However, part of the beauty of the system (XI) over the current battle regimen system was the ability to add on to someone else’s Skillchain. The battle regimen system is too rigid. As a mage if I saw a Skillchain I could toss in a spell randomly.

You could also tie elemental bonuses to equipped abilities so you could increase Skillchain damage based on the combination of abilities.


uhm... you can add spells in Battle Regimen....


Yes. You are right. You can do Battle Regimens with spells. But, if I saw other members of the party do a regimen and randomly wanted to particpate and add some extra damage, I couldn't because I wasn't part of the Regimen initially. Too rigid.

I'm not saying my solution is "the" answer. I'm trying dig into the battle system and define changes the community would make to bring more strategy to it. If you feel like it is essentially all it needs to be, tell me why and how you feel it is adequate. If not provide an alternative solution. I don't feel like the strategy piece of doing battle exists. It still feels too hack/slash.

I'll use the example of THF from XI. When I played THF there was an element of positioning and timing invovled with SA and TA to help the tank keep hate. It gave me a sense of purpose/usefulness in the party when I played besides just doing damage. I feel like there needs to be that element/higher purpose to partying to make it really enjoyable. So... I'm asking how can we do that within the current system? Disclaimer: I'm not saying I want FFXIV to be FFXI.
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#51 Feb 07 2011 at 9:09 AM Rating: Decent
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kainsilv wrote:
Trying to balance the right jobs and skills. I also liked the roles that each player had within the group. The downside was that if one person sucked it could ruin a party. However, when everything clicked you could almost feel your EXP gain.



I completely agree. I miss having clear roles in the group, and I miss having those good, solid groups. You could really tell when someone was doing something wrong or bad in the group. I'm not saying you can't tell in FFXIV, but I guess it's not as important in this game.

I think the potential roles of the classes in FFXIV are there. The problem is there are very few monsters/fights that require these roles to win. Few examples of unique fights they can add are fights that require magic damage over physical damage, fights that require pugilist tanks over gladiator tanks, fights that favor a conjurer AoE type over the thaumaturge AoE type, etc. I'm not saying there should be classes that shines most for every fight because every class should have a role in the fight; I'm just saying some classes should shine more than others depending on the mob the group's fighting.

Another thing is they should change some of the skills so that you can only use it on that class. For example twisting vice (lancer TP wipe weapon skill) should be a lancer only weapon skill. I think it's one of those skills that can define a role of the lancer class. They did say they're going to change/add skills to make the classes more unique so that should make it better.

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