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Craft bots and usFollow

#52 Feb 09 2011 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
In the feedback forum I've made a sticky with a link to SE's support page. Here, you can directly notify them of RMT/bot/cheating activity as well as give them direct feedback for the game.

If you do think someone is botting, I would report them to the Special Task Force, and let them deal with it. I personally use this link whenever I see groups of RMT bot-clones. They don't always make things happen immediately -- I suspect they need to do a bunch of observing and investigating before they take any action.

Clicky



There is actually a thread floating somewhere for people to post names of spotted botters. Of all the ones listed, not one has been punished yet. I try to stay positive despite this, but it is really hard to when you don't see results.
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#53 Feb 09 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Excellent
LyleVertigo wrote:
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
In the feedback forum I've made a sticky with a link to SE's support page. Here, you can directly notify them of RMT/bot/cheating activity as well as give them direct feedback for the game.

If you do think someone is botting, I would report them to the Special Task Force, and let them deal with it. I personally use this link whenever I see groups of RMT bot-clones. They don't always make things happen immediately -- I suspect they need to do a bunch of observing and investigating before they take any action.

Clicky



There is actually a thread floating somewhere for people to post names of spotted botters. Of all the ones listed, not one has been punished yet. I try to stay positive despite this, but it is really hard to when you don't see results.


That's why I put the link up in a sticky. You can tell SE directly of any cheating or RMT activity. I'd imagine that would be more effective.
#54 Feb 09 2011 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
LyleVertigo wrote:
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
In the feedback forum I've made a sticky with a link to SE's support page. Here, you can directly notify them of RMT/bot/cheating activity as well as give them direct feedback for the game.

If you do think someone is botting, I would report them to the Special Task Force, and let them deal with it. I personally use this link whenever I see groups of RMT bot-clones. They don't always make things happen immediately -- I suspect they need to do a bunch of observing and investigating before they take any action.

Clicky



There is actually a thread floating somewhere for people to post names of spotted botters. Of all the ones listed, not one has been punished yet. I try to stay positive despite this, but it is really hard to when you don't see results.


That's why I put the link up in a sticky. You can tell SE directly of any cheating or RMT activity. I'd imagine that would be more effective.


Oh I do, believe me. I am not sure if others actually use the task force submit or not however. Maybe SE is waiting for a moment to do a grand axing all at once as an example? Kinda like in FF11 when they waited for months then SURPRISE! /chop! XD
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#55 Feb 09 2011 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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LyleVertigo wrote:
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
LyleVertigo wrote:
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
In the feedback forum I've made a sticky with a link to SE's support page. Here, you can directly notify them of RMT/bot/cheating activity as well as give them direct feedback for the game.

If you do think someone is botting, I would report them to the Special Task Force, and let them deal with it. I personally use this link whenever I see groups of RMT bot-clones. They don't always make things happen immediately -- I suspect they need to do a bunch of observing and investigating before they take any action.

Clicky



There is actually a thread floating somewhere for people to post names of spotted botters. Of all the ones listed, not one has been punished yet. I try to stay positive despite this, but it is really hard to when you don't see results.


That's why I put the link up in a sticky. You can tell SE directly of any cheating or RMT activity. I'd imagine that would be more effective.


Oh I do, believe me. I am not sure if others actually use the task force submit or not however. Maybe SE is waiting for a moment to do a grand axing all at once as an example? Kinda like in FF11 when they waited for months then SURPRISE! /chop! XD


it isnt that they axe people all at once in that aspect, but as said before, they investigate first, which takes alot of time, so say monthly? in that month they will check people out that have been reported, and at the end, they make the decisions and then *chop* off go the heads of the illegal ones
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#56 Feb 09 2011 at 4:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Hm. I wonder why they didn't use something like
that stupid parley minigame for crafting?
#57 Feb 09 2011 at 5:13 PM Rating: Good
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thejones wrote:
snip


Huh? From the tone of your reply looks like I must of offended you in someway. If I'm right next to a person poking em for 5 minutes and talking/messaging to her you **** better stop for a second and give some kind of response while they are mining else you're a **** bot. Also don't twist me words around a thesaurus ain't going to win whatever point your trying to make which I'm still not sure what your arguing about.

Second, it was never an "investigation" I just /tell and confronted em and thought they'll man up when they're caught. Also having a G15 keyboard just hit enter nonstop ain't botting as it ain't no different than macros when people just hit 1 botton and kill a mob for you and I don't even use those. I gotta be there to start the next syn, is it so hard to comprehend? <-- Yes I am questioning your intelligence if your wondering. I can't help to think that you are the person I'm talking about since your taking quite a bit of offence. Shame you didn't post your character in your sig.
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#58 Feb 09 2011 at 5:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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My own experience with craft bots:

I was in a LS (now defunct) where literally 20/22 people used craft bots. This one chick googled the code, apparently found it in like the first few searches, and posted it on the LS message boards. She took all these screenshots of herself using it and said it was super easy to run (which I don't doubt, because she was/is a huge dumb ***). She also claimed it was totally undetectable. From there everyone started running the program... people would load up the program, go AFK for the 3 hours, and let it do its thing. It got to a point where anytime I'd walk by someone in the LS and try to have a chat, I'd receive no reply as he/she would be away and just running the script. The botters would meander back to the computer every now and again and announce their level/rank ups with such pride. "Yay, level 41!" one botter exclaimed. My thought was go @#%^ yourself. Needless to say, I never used the bot and never will. Even during my time in XI I never used any type of bot, even when I had to compete against them for HNM claims, etc.

I could name names but there's really no point. What disheartens me is that the dumb ***** was probably right: I think it is undetectable from SEs side. Why do I say this? Well, almost every one of the botters still play. And I know for a fact that the ones who don't weren't banned.

The dilemma from SEs side is twofold. Firstly, how do you detect something such as a script running off of a person's computer? And second, even if you could detect it, are you really going to ban customers who aren't paying a monthly free? True, most of them probably paid for the game, but I'm sure there are a lot of people currently playing who simply used a buddy pass.

Either way, I hope the botters get nailed to the wall. It frustrates me because I've taken the time and effort to raise all of my crafting myself, and although it may have been tedious, it doesn't justify others using an exploit such as a bot to gain an advantage over us honest players.

Edit: a note on how the bot script works. You can literally program it to do anything. Generally as I understand it people set it to standard synth always and use abilities whenever they come up.


Edited, Feb 9th 2011 5:41pm by Onionthiefx
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#59 Feb 09 2011 at 5:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Onionthiefx wrote:

And second, even if you could detect it, are you really going to ban customers who aren't paying a monthly free?
Edited, Feb 9th 2011 5:41pm by Onionthiefx

Aren't those the best customers to ban? The ones who are willfully breaking your systems, breaking your rules, ruining the economy by hitting the max level (via cheating) before they should have, while not even paying the $$ to help keep the servers on?

It's easy to ban non-paying customers because they don't benefit your company. If they break your rules they should be the easiest ones to get rid of.

Edited, Feb 9th 2011 6:59pm by Eadieni
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#60 Feb 09 2011 at 6:02 PM Rating: Good
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thejones wrote:

Quote:

Like I said, unemployment can get you very far in games. My only motivation then was to get to R50 on my main classes, and just so happens that my main were GLA,BSM and ARM but the grind was so painful I bailed at R48 ARM.


There seems to be some sort of cause and effect relationship here.....I can't quite connect the dots though between you playing so much FFXIV that you have almost three jobs @ cap and your inability to find gainful employment. If only SE was hiring bot police.

Happy hunting!


This man might be on to something!

Seriously though, if the best way to level a class in a decent amount of time - any class - is to be unemployed then something is desperately wrong with your game. This is exactly what was wrong with FFXI. Unless you were a part-time unemployed student with no children and little social life it took several dedicated months to reach the level cap so you can start doing end-game content (and don't forget a HUGE majority of the story missions and quests). Why would anyone besides a ********* want to make it more aggravating than it could be?
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#61 Feb 09 2011 at 6:28 PM Rating: Good
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Can definitely say I'm on the side of MMORPGs should not be an alternate job.
A lot of people don't seem to notice how many hours of their life they lose.

If you log into FFXI or EQ1 and check your played time and see "380 days 12 hours 50 minutes" then you've lost a year of your life to 1 video game. (+- some afk or idle time but that still doesn't change that fact).

Most RPGs tend to be 20-50 hours to beat a game, with some epic (Oblivion/Morrowind) games going over 100 hours. Sure MMORPGs are meant to be long commitment and should have longevity, I do have to say I think WoW has a good balance, where theres always something to do, it doesn't take long to hit max level, and theres a never-ending grind in front of you in some form.

In FFXIV it's just a endless grind to get to 50 instead of incremental upgrades via gear or achievements. FFXI/FFXIV is definitely not very Employed/Educated friendly with how much time sinks are involved :D
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#62 Feb 09 2011 at 9:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Vedis wrote:
I have a botter in my shell, and i love how he covers it up
claiming his 6 year old kid is crafting for him and thats why he doesnt respond....yeah, id LOVE to see a 6 year old who can sit and craft for 16+ hours a day
but we are leaving it to the GMs and task force to enforce it, have had about a dozen people report him already, but those dont actualy get enforced right away if they are indeed offending


Found him.
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#63 Feb 09 2011 at 9:20 PM Rating: Good
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LyleVertigo wrote:
Vedis wrote:
I have a botter in my shell, and i love how he covers it up
claiming his 6 year old kid is crafting for him and thats why he doesnt respond....yeah, id LOVE to see a 6 year old who can sit and craft for 16+ hours a day
but we are leaving it to the GMs and task force to enforce it, have had about a dozen people report him already, but those dont actualy get enforced right away if they are indeed offending


Found him.


lol, believable story isnt it
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#64 Feb 09 2011 at 9:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Vedis wrote:
LyleVertigo wrote:
Vedis wrote:
I have a botter in my shell, and i love how he covers it up
claiming his 6 year old kid is crafting for him and thats why he doesnt respond....yeah, id LOVE to see a 6 year old who can sit and craft for 16+ hours a day
but we are leaving it to the GMs and task force to enforce it, have had about a dozen people report him already, but those dont actualy get enforced right away if they are indeed offending


Found him.


lol, believable story isnt it


I don't know how you raise your kids (that's a debate for a later time), but if I don't get a double-shift out of mine by the time they're four, they spend some time in the "no-no box." A few days in there and a 16-hour, sweatshop-style crafting run is paradise -- at least they get full range of motion! :D

My point is that, with the right kind of parenting, you can make your children work for you -- instead of the other way around! -- and that this Desperado "botter" and I actually have a lot in common: that is, our belief in creative, low-age labor, not in botting!

d(^_ ~ )
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#65 Feb 09 2011 at 9:46 PM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Vedis wrote:
LyleVertigo wrote:
Vedis wrote:
I have a botter in my shell, and i love how he covers it up
claiming his 6 year old kid is crafting for him and thats why he doesnt respond....yeah, id LOVE to see a 6 year old who can sit and craft for 16+ hours a day
but we are leaving it to the GMs and task force to enforce it, have had about a dozen people report him already, but those dont actualy get enforced right away if they are indeed offending


Found him.


lol, believable story isnt it


I don't know how you raise your kids (that's a debate for a later time), but if I don't get a double-shift out of mine by the time they're four, they spend some time in the "no-no box." A few days in there and a 16-hour, sweatshop-style crafting run is paradise -- at least they get full range of motion! :D

My point is that, with the right kind of parenting, you can make your children work for you -- instead of the other way around! -- and that this Desperado "botter" and I actually have a lot in common: that is, our belief in creative, low-age labor, not in botting!

d(^_ ~ )



the thing is some of these "botters" who claim family are doing it, actualy have auto reactions to certain things you do, and the refusal to respond doesnt help when they are botting

as ive stated before, if a gm comes up and sees the repetetive action...and no response. what will they assume?
do you really think customer service is gonna respond well to "my kid was playing for me for 16 hours" when you call about the ban?

Edited, Feb 9th 2011 7:48pm by Vedis
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#66 Feb 09 2011 at 9:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
If you log into FFXI and check your played time and see "380 days 12 hours 50 minutes" then you've lost a year of your life to 1 video game


One wonderful, entertaining year Smiley: inlove

/reminisce
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#67 Feb 09 2011 at 11:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Aren't those the best customers to ban? The ones who are willfully breaking your systems, breaking your rules, ruining the economy by hitting the max level (via cheating) before they should have, while not even paying the $$ to help keep the servers on?

It's easy to ban non-paying customers because they don't benefit your company. If they break your rules they should be the easiest ones to get rid of.


I think they're trying their best to avoid losing any potential future subscribers at this point, otherwise I'd agree.
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#68 Feb 10 2011 at 1:14 AM Rating: Good
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I don't know how they catch bots--I'd like to, since right now I'm afraid enough that I even avoid using any sort of video capturing software like fraps. I want to, but I'm afraid they'll see it as "third party software" or something, so I play it safe. Now, if people are getting reported because they're ignoring other players... well then im screwed. I often don't see tells when im right there playing the game and I sure as anything am not going to see em when im crafting and watching tv. If that sounds impossible to you, then i dont know what to tell you... just don't ask me about it in game when im crafting... becuase i won't respond.

That said, I totally agree that botting is horrible for any game. The ability to level crazy fast should be reserved to the nutjobs (respectfully) who never leave their computer. They work hard and they earn it. Good for them. I wish I could hire them. The vast majority of players, however, don't do that--thats why the game works. Thats why a game still functions as it should with 'a balanced economy' and all that. If everyone could get ahead by just flicking on a program and going to bed then everyone obviously would. Of course, then the game would incredibly dull since at best the whole point of the game is twofold: the social aspect of interacting with people and the challenge of leveling up. Botting takes away both. It should be stopped. Absolutely. I just have no idea how. And I certainly do not want some witch hunt burning oblvious crafters at the stake. I don't want to come back after a movie to find my dude charred in the dust because i had my screen too small.
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#69 Feb 10 2011 at 1:42 AM Rating: Decent
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this is a conversation with cleverbot:

 
User: Hey. 
 
Cleverbot: Hey? 
 
User: What's up? 
 
Cleverbot: How was your new year eve? 
 
User: Good, but I was wondering what you're doing. 
 
Cleverbot: My name is Cleverbot. 
 
User: That's nice cleverbot, what are you doing right now? 
 
Cleverbot: I don't know. I'm too busy watching the Big Bang Theory. 
 
User: While you're crafting? 
 
Cleverbot: I am engeneer. 
 
User: No, looks like you're a goldsmith. 
 
Cleverbot: What? 
 
User: Your current job, it's goldsmithing. 
 
Cleverbot: Yes, I know. 
 
User: Are you using a craft bot? 
 
Cleverbot: No. 


The "My name is cleverbot" can easily be swapped out for something more appropriate. The point is, a crafting bot can easily tap into cleverbot to give unscripted, contextual responses. And now what? Will GMs have to decide whether a person's conversation is contextually generated or genuine? How can GMs possibly stay fair then?

No, I'm sorry, bot hunting is a lost cause. It's an arms race where one side is heavily restricted (the bot hunters). Even WoW with its nigh infinite resources can't come up with a technical solution to combat botting. They've had to resort to legal action against the bot makers.

Want to stop people from botting? Don't give them a reason to. Give up the insane amount of grinding needed.
#70 Feb 10 2011 at 2:20 AM Rating: Good
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DaricoAndari wrote:
I don't know how they catch bots--I'd like to, since right now I'm afraid enough that I even avoid using any sort of video capturing software like fraps. I want to, but I'm afraid they'll see it as "third party software" or something, so I play it safe. Now, if people are getting reported because they're ignoring other players... well then im screwed. I often don't see tells when im right there playing the game and I sure as anything am not going to see em when im crafting and watching tv. If that sounds impossible to you, then i dont know what to tell you... just don't ask me about it in game when im crafting... becuase i won't respond.


It seems there are a lot of questions about how to identify botters. The key is to identify several specific repetitive patterns for long periods of time.

The following is what I generally say when I report them to Special Task Force.

Craft bots:
1) Ignoring chat/tells. However, this alone is NOT enough. But combined with:
2) Repetitive actions at specific time intervals (use a stopwatch to time them). For example, using Standard Synthesis every 20secs (timing accuracy down to the second). I doubt anyone can repeatedly and accurately hit the same button every 20secs.
3) Long periods of time. Use a stopwatch and time them after 1hr, 2hrs, 3hrs, etc. If he is still using the same action repeatedly every 20secs, then he's most likely a bot. I highly doubt any human possesses enough timing accuracy to be able to repeat an action every 20secs for hours.

Fighter bots:
1) Ignoring chat/tells.
2) Animation lag during battle. For example, ranged attacks with melee weapon.
3) Walking through walls.
4) Repetitive monster targeting patterns. Bots can't seem to distinguish between player characters and monsters. Therefore, bots will target players if there are no monsters nearby. A bot would 1)target you, 2)then walks over to where you are standing, 3) de-selects you 4)repeats #1 to 3 until a monster spawns or you move out of their botting range.
5) Specific botting range. The bot will only interact with things inside a set range and ignores everything outside the range. The range is very specific where half a step in walking mode will set off the bot.
6) Long periods of time. If it's a bot, #1 to 5 above will repeat for hours, days or even months.
#71 Feb 10 2011 at 4:32 AM Rating: Good
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As I think about it, it's really clear to me that they actually took a -big- step back in terms of the influence of crafting bots compared to XI. In XI it was mostly about having the materials - the actual process of synthing didn't take nearly as long. But here, it's mostly about the time you put in, which is a massive amount.. And thus, bots everywhere, all the time. That we can currently take every craft to the cap doesn't help matters, as it's just that many more opportunities for bots to influence.
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#72 Feb 10 2011 at 6:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriously though, if the best way to level a class in a decent amount of time - any class - is to be unemployed then something is desperately wrong with your game. This is exactly what was wrong with FFXI.


100% agreed. Personal opinion, though, as I know there are some people who live on the knowledge
that noone else but them is willing to sacrifice as much of their time -> they are top.
#73 Feb 10 2011 at 8:11 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If I'm right next to a person poking em for 5 minutes and talking/messaging to her you **** better stop for a second and give some kind of response while they are mining else you're a **** bot.


It's a Jump to Conclusions mat, get it?
#74 Feb 10 2011 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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eseritko3 wrote:
Want to stop people from botting? Don't give them a reason to. Give up the insane amount of grinding needed.


That statement is downright idiotic.

Some amount of people will always try to cheat no matter how much you "reduce the grind." Take away leveling altogether, and they'll bot for money; take away currency, and they'll bot something else. Games do not "give people reasons to bot," people bot, cheat, and exploit regardless; it is a terrible excuse to pretend that botting appeals to players because of the game's mechanics.

These are people who want advancement without working for it -- either RMT or otherwise -- and changing the game (that is, ruining the game) in order to cater to people who cheat at it is perhaps the worst idea I have ever heard.
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#75 Feb 10 2011 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
Seriously though, if the best way to level a class in a decent amount of time - any class - is to be unemployed then something is desperately wrong with your game. This is exactly what was wrong with FFXI.


100% agreed. Personal opinion, though, as I know there are some people who live on the knowledge
that noone else but them is willing to sacrifice as much of their time -> they are top.


So the amount of time you work at something should not effect the results? You think that I should not be able to advance more in a game if I play for a thousand hours instead of a hundred?

As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the world that is not better done with a focus on doing it. The best way to learn the violin is to be unemployed and focus solely on playing the violin; the best way to make it through graduate school is to be unemployed and focus only on graduate school. The best way to beat/advance a game is to play it for long periods of time.

There would be nothing else in a game if time did not play a major role in progress. Should all games be designed to finish after a few hours, such that nobody has to "sacrifice significant time" in order to play it?

The "best" way to do anything is to, simply, do it a lot; to practice, to advance, to learn, and to build upon earlier achievements. No matter what you are doing -- be it sleeping, eating, working, or playing -- you are "sacrificing time" in order to do it.

To complain that time is used in order to do something is to lament the state of the universe.
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#76 Feb 10 2011 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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for anyone who doubts these peopl are botting, the video lyele promised

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-OX_WF3MVs
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#77 Feb 10 2011 at 11:03 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Want to stop people from botting? Don't give them a reason to. Give up the insane amount of grinding needed.



Quote:
That statement is downright idiotic.

Some amount of people will always try to cheat no matter how much you "reduce the grind." Take away leveling altogether, and they'll bot for money; take away currency, and they'll bot something else. Games do not "give people reasons to bot," people bot, cheat, and exploit regardless; it is a terrible excuse to pretend that botting appeals to players because of the game's mechanics.

These are people who want advancement without working for it -- either RMT or otherwise -- and changing the game (that is, ruining the game) in order to cater to people who cheat at it is perhaps the worst idea I have ever heard.



No it's not, it makes a lot of sense. SE put a stupid game mechanic in place with gear that degrades way too fast and NPC repairs that cost way too much. The obvious alternative is to learn to repair your own gear, which requires you to endure the ridiculous time sink that is leveling multiple crafts.

In the adventuring realm, the only content that is currently in-game that is even remotely unique or interesting of endgame-ish are NM's. To even get a glimpse at that content, it's a ridiculously long and boring time sink of a grind to get to 50.

I agree that there will always be cheaters, but IMO, SE made a series of horrible design choices and the repercussions of those bad choices are people botting to grind through the time sinks.
#78 Feb 10 2011 at 11:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

No it's not, it makes a lot of sense. SE put a stupid game mechanic in place with gear that degrades way too fast and NPC repairs that cost way too much. The obvious alternative is to learn to repair your own gear, which requires you to endure the ridiculous time sink that is leveling multiple crafts.

In the adventuring realm, the only content that is currently in-game that is even remotely unique or interesting of endgame-ish are NM's. To even get a glimpse at that content, it's a ridiculously long and boring time sink of a grind to get to 50.

I agree that there will always be cheaters, but IMO, SE made a series of horrible design choices and the repercussions of those bad choices are people botting to grind through the time sinks.


My question to the players that feel like this is why even bother to play the game then? If they feel that the grind (imagine that an mmo with a grind, to which they'll reply "Its not 2002 anymore, mmo's shouldn't be grindy) for both crafting and leveling a class is to much and unenjoyable, why play the game? They obviously don't like the fighting system since if they did it wouldn't worry how slow or fast they are getting experience. The same can be said about crafting.

Is it because they think the future endgame of XIV is going to be so good it will justify botting their crafting and fighting classes to get there? Instead of saying, I cheat because I don't like the way SE made the game, why don't they just move on to a game they can enjoy.



Edited, Feb 10th 2011 12:49pm by Libtech

Edited, Feb 10th 2011 12:50pm by Libtech
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#79 Feb 10 2011 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Libtech wrote:
Quote:

No it's not, it makes a lot of sense. SE put a stupid game mechanic in place with gear that degrades way too fast and NPC repairs that cost way too much. The obvious alternative is to learn to repair your own gear, which requires you to endure the ridiculous time sink that is leveling multiple crafts.

In the adventuring realm, the only content that is currently in-game that is even remotely unique or interesting of endgame-ish are NM's. To even get a glimpse at that content, it's a ridiculously long and boring time sink of a grind to get to 50.

I agree that there will always be cheaters, but IMO, SE made a series of horrible design choices and the repercussions of those bad choices are people botting to grind through the time sinks.


My question to the players that feel like this is why even bother to play the game then? If they feel that the grind (imagine that an mmo with a grind, to which they'll reply "Its not 2002 anymore, mmo's shouldn't be grindy) for both crafting and leveling a class is to much and unenjoyable, why play the game? They obviously don't like the fighting system since if they did it wouldn't worry how slow or fast they are getting experience. The same can be said about crafting.

Is it because they think the future endgame of XIV is going to be so good it will justify botting their crafting and fighting classes to get there? Instead of saying, I cheat because I don't like the way SE made the game, why don't they just move on to a game they can enjoy.


Some people might be holding out until SE decides they're going to start charging, then decide to cancel or start playing based on where they're at. I haven't played the game in months, but since its free I'm closely watching it.

I actually did log in to my character and tried to form a leve group, but one of the members decided everyone was "teh dumb" and ragequit because he felt like we weren't doing things the optimal way. I probably won't log in again until I see some kind of content update that's even worth getting that kind of attitude over (it makes it more bearable to deal with the min/maxers anyway).
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#80 Feb 10 2011 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
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thejones wrote:
Quote:
Want to stop people from botting? Don't give them a reason to. Give up the insane amount of grinding needed.



Quote:
That statement is downright idiotic.

Some amount of people will always try to cheat no matter how much you "reduce the grind." Take away leveling altogether, and they'll bot for money; take away currency, and they'll bot something else. Games do not "give people reasons to bot," people bot, cheat, and exploit regardless; it is a terrible excuse to pretend that botting appeals to players because of the game's mechanics.

These are people who want advancement without working for it -- either RMT or otherwise -- and changing the game (that is, ruining the game) in order to cater to people who cheat at it is perhaps the worst idea I have ever heard.



No it's not, it makes a lot of sense. SE put a stupid game mechanic in place with gear that degrades way too fast and NPC repairs that cost way too much. The obvious alternative is to learn to repair your own gear, which requires you to endure the ridiculous time sink that is leveling multiple crafts.

In the adventuring realm, the only content that is currently in-game that is even remotely unique or interesting of endgame-ish are NM's. To even get a glimpse at that content, it's a ridiculously long and boring time sink of a grind to get to 50.

I agree that there will always be cheaters, but IMO, SE made a series of horrible design choices and the repercussions of those bad choices are people botting to grind through the time sinks.


"The game makes me cheat" is quite possibly one of the dumbest cheating defenses one could come up with. The game does not make you play it, ergo the game does not make you cheat. You play the game and you figure out how the game works. If you like the game, play the game. If you don't like what the game wants to do, DON'T DO IT and stop plying the game. Cheating to circumvent something that everyone else has to do because YOU don't like it is inexcusable.

I mean ****, by that logic, if I can't pay my bills, I should go rob a convenience store because "The bill collectors make me rob stores! I can't be bothered to get a job and make money! That's not fun!"

Except that whereas you HAVE to pay bills, you don't HAVE to play FFXIV. If you feel that FFXIV is forcing you to do something that you don't enjoy, stop playing FFXIV.
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#81 Feb 10 2011 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
thejones wrote:
Quote:
Want to stop people from botting? Don't give them a reason to. Give up the insane amount of grinding needed.



Quote:
That statement is downright idiotic.

Some amount of people will always try to cheat no matter how much you "reduce the grind." Take away leveling altogether, and they'll bot for money; take away currency, and they'll bot something else. Games do not "give people reasons to bot," people bot, cheat, and exploit regardless; it is a terrible excuse to pretend that botting appeals to players because of the game's mechanics.

These are people who want advancement without working for it -- either RMT or otherwise -- and changing the game (that is, ruining the game) in order to cater to people who cheat at it is perhaps the worst idea I have ever heard.



No it's not, it makes a lot of sense. SE put a stupid game mechanic in place with gear that degrades way too fast and NPC repairs that cost way too much. The obvious alternative is to learn to repair your own gear, which requires you to endure the ridiculous time sink that is leveling multiple crafts.

In the adventuring realm, the only content that is currently in-game that is even remotely unique or interesting of endgame-ish are NM's. To even get a glimpse at that content, it's a ridiculously long and boring time sink of a grind to get to 50.

I agree that there will always be cheaters, but IMO, SE made a series of horrible design choices and the repercussions of those bad choices are people botting to grind through the time sinks.


"The game makes me cheat" is quite possibly one of the dumbest cheating defenses one could come up with. The game does not make you play it, ergo the game does not make you cheat. You play the game and you figure out how the game works. If you like the game, play the game. If you don't like what the game wants to do, DON'T DO IT and stop plying the game. Cheating to circumvent something that everyone else has to do because YOU don't like it is inexcusable.

I mean ****, by that logic, if I can't pay my bills, I should go rob a convenience store because "The bill collectors make me rob stores! I can't be bothered to get a job and make money! That's not fun!"

Except that whereas you HAVE to pay bills, you don't HAVE to play FFXIV. If you feel that FFXIV is forcing you to do something that you don't enjoy, stop playing FFXIV.


my wife doesnt put out enough, she "makes me" cheat too
i also cheat at work by sleeping cuz it makes me do it, its their fault


nothing is every anyones fault, people dont like admiting they did something wrong, they always gotta justify it.


cheaters are cheaters and they just dont belong at all and people need to stop justifying it
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#82 Feb 10 2011 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
Vedis wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
thejones wrote:
Quote:
Want to stop people from botting? Don't give them a reason to. Give up the insane amount of grinding needed.



Quote:
That statement is downright idiotic.

Some amount of people will always try to cheat no matter how much you "reduce the grind." Take away leveling altogether, and they'll bot for money; take away currency, and they'll bot something else. Games do not "give people reasons to bot," people bot, cheat, and exploit regardless; it is a terrible excuse to pretend that botting appeals to players because of the game's mechanics.

These are people who want advancement without working for it -- either RMT or otherwise -- and changing the game (that is, ruining the game) in order to cater to people who cheat at it is perhaps the worst idea I have ever heard.



No it's not, it makes a lot of sense. SE put a stupid game mechanic in place with gear that degrades way too fast and NPC repairs that cost way too much. The obvious alternative is to learn to repair your own gear, which requires you to endure the ridiculous time sink that is leveling multiple crafts.

In the adventuring realm, the only content that is currently in-game that is even remotely unique or interesting of endgame-ish are NM's. To even get a glimpse at that content, it's a ridiculously long and boring time sink of a grind to get to 50.

I agree that there will always be cheaters, but IMO, SE made a series of horrible design choices and the repercussions of those bad choices are people botting to grind through the time sinks.


"The game makes me cheat" is quite possibly one of the dumbest cheating defenses one could come up with. The game does not make you play it, ergo the game does not make you cheat. You play the game and you figure out how the game works. If you like the game, play the game. If you don't like what the game wants to do, DON'T DO IT and stop plying the game. Cheating to circumvent something that everyone else has to do because YOU don't like it is inexcusable.

I mean ****, by that logic, if I can't pay my bills, I should go rob a convenience store because "The bill collectors make me rob stores! I can't be bothered to get a job and make money! That's not fun!"

Except that whereas you HAVE to pay bills, you don't HAVE to play FFXIV. If you feel that FFXIV is forcing you to do something that you don't enjoy, stop playing FFXIV.


my wife doesnt put out enough, she "makes me" cheat too
i also cheat at work by sleeping cuz it makes me do it, its their fault


nothing is every anyones fault, people dont like admiting they did something wrong, they always gotta justify it.


cheaters are cheaters and they just dont belong at all and people need to stop justifying it


Exactly. I'm getting sick of living in a society where nothing is anyone's fault. Blame school shootings on violent video games and reduce the violence. Blame rapes on movies and TV because seeing it happen encourages it. Blame failing students on curriculum and make classes easier to compensate for lazy students.

For every one case of someone doing something that actually IS someone else or something else's fault, there are 99 more people who are going to claim the same defense because it's easier to blame someone else than it is to man up and just say "Yeah, it's my fault".

I'm not a fan of botters, but if you want to come out and say "Yeah, I realize I'm ******** people over and I really don't care" then at least I can respect that. Not "Oh, I -have- to bot!" No you don't. Man up.
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#83 Feb 10 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Khornette wrote:
UncleRuckusForLife wrote:
botting?
http://www.atitd.com/


Well that game is a few dozen magabytes large and has graphics worse than a Second-Life template... so it certainly makes an effective example for what a crafting-focused MMO can be, I'm just unsure whether it makes the point you want it to make.


ROFL
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#84 Feb 10 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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BrokenFox wrote:
Honestly, blame SE for making such a boring crafting system. If players are resorting to this sort of thing to level up there's a reason for it. People play games to have fun, and crafting is not fun.



As much as I despise cheating, it is a VERY valid point....

Crafting is all but required to repair and synth HQ gear, and the time/benefit ratio is completely whacked.... I will never have an r50 crafting job, not because I don't desire it .. because I can't spend that amount of time outside of my Job / RL / Combat classes ... and maybe DoH (Botany).

There has been some talk in my LS about one or more members using a DoH bot ... I don't agree with having zero punishment .. especially since a few of my LS mates are real high ranked legit crafters. You would think they would be offended more than myself, a mage by profession.
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#85 Feb 10 2011 at 4:46 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm new to these boards but I'm not new to MMOs and any bot crafting or otherwise will ***** over players who aren't botting and that's the issue, period.

You can justify or rationalize why botting is ok by blaming the game as much as you want, it doesn't change the fact its cheating.

For every 1 person who's using a bot to craft "to cut out the grind" there's probaly 10 if not more who are under the employ of RMTs. To me its always been as simple as that botting helps RMTs, RMTs destroy games, botters should be banned.
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#86 Feb 10 2011 at 5:15 PM Rating: Default
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FUJILIVES wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
Khornette wrote:
UncleRuckusForLife wrote:
botting?
http://www.atitd.com/


Well that game is a few dozen magabytes large and has graphics worse than a Second-Life template... so it certainly makes an effective example for what a crafting-focused MMO can be, I'm just unsure whether it makes the point you want it to make.


ROFL


So you're laughing at an indie MMO that has been doing well enough to be around since the time of FFXI release (2003)? How about the gloriously beautiful APB that closed down in 74 days? Because APB is obivously a non-crafting combat only focused MMO.
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#87 Feb 10 2011 at 6:08 PM Rating: Decent
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557 posts
Khornette wrote:
FUJILIVES wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
Khornette wrote:
UncleRuckusForLife wrote:
botting?
http://www.atitd.com/


Well that game is a few dozen magabytes large and has graphics worse than a Second-Life template... so it certainly makes an effective example for what a crafting-focused MMO can be, I'm just unsure whether it makes the point you want it to make.


ROFL


So you're laughing at an indie MMO that has been doing well enough to be around since the time of FFXI release (2003)? How about the gloriously beautiful APB that closed down in 74 days? Because APB is obivously a non-crafting combat only focused MMO.

It's been around since 2003? It has pretty decent graphics then. I was gonna say that for a totally indie game with a very small following the graphics don't bother me, but if they're circa 2003 graphics so much the better.

I'm planning out an indie, very niche MMO right now, and I'd be lucky to achieve that level of realism.
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#88 Feb 10 2011 at 6:38 PM Rating: Good
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PyrielDD wrote:
I'm new to these boards but I'm not new to MMOs and any bot crafting or otherwise will ***** over players who aren't botting and that's the issue, period.

You can justify or rationalize why botting is ok by blaming the game as much as you want, it doesn't change the fact its cheating.

For every 1 person who's using a bot to craft "to cut out the grind" there's probaly 10 if not more who are under the employ of RMTs. To me its always been as simple as that botting helps RMTs, RMTs destroy games, botters should be banned.


I agree, and I agree with Mikhalia's response as well. This is why I don't play FFXIV right now (not just for crafting reasons). I'm watching it's progress or rebirth as you might call it, but why play a game that's so boring you can't help but want to bot it to make progress? I find it boring so I do not play it.
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#89 Feb 10 2011 at 9:04 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Kirby wrote:
If you don't want to Gather and/or Craft, don't.

I enjoy doing both, so I'm actually present at my PC, playing the game the way I want to.

Edited, Feb 9th 2011 4:59am by Kirby


Yeah well, some of us WANT to get levels in crafting, but don't like staring a screen for hours upon hours hitting standard, so instead we watch Netflix or movies. I'm actually present at my PC too, so your point is moot. Also, I DO like crafting when I'm doing something that's a challenge and getting huge amounts of SP, because that's fun for me. But when I'm just grinding, no that is not fun, so I supplement with something that IS fun, watching Netflix.


Does that mean you're interacting with the game while watching Netflix, or watching Netflix while a program works for you? Because if it's the latter, ban your ***. "Present at your PC" means you're actually playing the game, not sitting in front of the computer in case some GM comes on to question why your character is running into a rock or throwing 1000 fish away an hour. I resent that sort of lazy crap because I actually play the game, interactively, to get the skill gains I DESERVE.

Enjoy Netflix.
#90 Feb 10 2011 at 10:02 PM Rating: Good
29 posts
Honestly I never liked the idea of botting myself. I have been pondering this issue even while I have played XI. Unfourtunatly the only way I can see to prevent botting with absolute results would be to put MMO's Only on console. Not saying I would want to lose them on PC.
Well I have just thought of another way but it would take a lot longer and I am no programmer lol. Seems to me that with all these people that can come up with the programs to bot with the MMO companies could try to find a way to detect and deactivate them. Again like I said that would take a lot of time ; ;.

I know I haven't posted in a while so keep in mind I am not a great speller and punctuation isn't my strongest suit either lol.
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#91 Feb 25 2011 at 2:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Ayase! Where art thou? :( imu!
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#92 Feb 25 2011 at 2:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Ayase! Where art thou? imu :(
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#93 Feb 25 2011 at 5:20 AM Rating: Decent
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2,153 posts
Quote:
So the amount of time you work at something should not effect the results? You think that I should not be able to advance more in a game if I play for a thousand hours instead of a hundred?

As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the world that is not better done with a focus on doing it. The best way to learn the violin is to be unemployed and focus solely on playing the violin; the best way to make it through graduate school is to be unemployed and focus only on graduate school. The best way to beat/advance a game is to play it for long periods of time.

There would be nothing else in a game if time did not play a major role in progress. Should all games be designed to finish after a few hours, such that nobody has to "sacrifice significant time" in order to play it?

The "best" way to do anything is to, simply, do it a lot; to practice, to advance, to learn, and to build upon earlier achievements. No matter what you are doing -- be it sleeping, eating, working, or playing -- you are "sacrificing time" in order to do it.

To complain that time is used in order to do something is to lament the state of the universe.


Just that we are talking about a game.
As in: "funny game", "diversional game" or, a little inflected, "thrilling gaming experience".
If you consider your games something that warrant comparison with a true profession, well...
then welcome to Not-my-World.

Quote:
The "best" way to do anything is to, simply, do it a lot; (...) be it sleeping, eating, working, or playing


Personally, I prefer to eat good stuff, and not just a lot. I also try to deliver good work, and not just a lot. This attitude carries over to my playing style: I prefer being rewarded for being a good player that masters challenging content, and not so much for being an automaton that spends half of his life shoveling through repetitive obstacles.

In this regard, we differ.

Edited, Feb 25th 2011 6:35am by Rinsui
#94 Feb 25 2011 at 12:28 PM Rating: Decent
11 posts
Libtech wrote:
Quote:
If you log into FFXI and check your played time and see "380 days 12 hours 50 minutes" then you've lost a year of your life to 1 video game


One wonderful, entertaining year Smiley: inlove

/reminisce


Agree :), if you take 5 years of playing a game, a whole year of gameplay would mean essentially 1/5 of every day was spent playing the game so you would play a little over 4 1/2 hours a day which still leaves enough time for a life lol, it's more of an intensive imaginative hobby.

Crafting is hard to make fun; mini-games are usually fun for the first bit before they get repetitive. If they had the system be more like tetris where things got harder over time as you progressed- then that would make a mini-game much more exciting and also greatly lower the botting- easy and repetitive = boring, progressively more difficult and repetitive= not as much lol.

Or they could just have crafting become something where you mix components together that make an enemy you have to kill/ subdue into the item :)



#95 Feb 25 2011 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
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I don't agree with people running bots, 24/7 racking up multiple crafting jobs for no work at all. We had a whole LS that most of the members crafted 24/7 for months opposite of the area we craft in vanish mysteriously for 3 days. Yeah you guessed it, I guess enough people lodged complaints, they actually did get a 72 hour suspension. I'll admit I did get a petty laugh at their expense. It's cheating we all know it, there's not really an excuse for it.

That being said, I said something in LS chat last week during a spam enter fest on ARM, during which time I was only looking at the screen during the start of the next synth. As soon as I said whatever I said, someone asked "where were you, we sent you a tell and you didn't answer, are you botting?".
Tells are easily lost in the blue spam of synthesis messages, especially when your sitting among others doing the same thing. If you don't have it filtered and are splitting ur attention between looking at the screen, and say a movie or TV, you most likely will miss anything that doesn't hit the chat log during the few seconds you're confirming the next synth.

Bots should be banned, but the player-base needs to remember the witch-hunt paranoia from XI, anyone that claimed an NM was a botter, anyone skilling up SMN magic was botting, etc.
There were people that were as annoying, if not more, than the bots themselves, screaming "Botter" at ever other person they came across that they didn't know (and in some cases did!).
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#96 Mar 05 2011 at 12:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm watching a guy craft alone in an isolated part of Gridania. He has away status and doesn't respond to my presence. He uses the standard synthesis command every 4 seconds. After each synthesis ends he waits 60 seconds before starting the next one. He crafts the same item each time. Today he went from R28 to R31 (within the last 19 hours). I'm pretty sure he's a bot but I want to make sure before I report him. I thought bots couldn't use abilities, but he uses the 2 he has every time. Can bots use abilities or is he just <insert excuse here>?

Edited, Mar 5th 2011 1:31am by blueazaka
#97 Mar 05 2011 at 1:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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wrongfeifong wrote:
In my personal opinion is that botting shouldn't be illegal.

Why? It takes time to configure and write the code yourself. Of course, there are distributor, but finding one is as hard as it gets.

Just like someone getting an education, do you think someone took computer science in university is cheating vs a high school grad trying to get a job in IT? especially when the comp sci student use tools to make his work more effective.

While the game is overly complicated, from my point of view, how is botting affecting the game?

None really, all the botting doing is just "click" for whatever function that replace a player to hit "enter".

It is really a minor function, it doesn't replace the player from harvesting the items, read how to make the item and configure the whole "crafting"

Combat is another story, but crafting seriously in this game is just "a big waste of time" by adding all these "clicky" commands.

Those who complains are those who can't bot and jealous.

Look at it this way, cheating is for smart players and risk taker, the reward is greater. Just like a smartphone, rooting your phone is for smart user that can take risk (of brick). even most manufacturer now a day give you the root themselves. Why prevent rooting when they can use it as a feature?

Everyone cheat in life, Insider trader cheats in stock market taking the risk of getting caught, sales person lie about a product in order to make the sales (which is cheating), a driver might "speed" over the limit (which is cheating too) and risk being caught.



Thanks for letting us know at least one account S-E should be checking.
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#98 Mar 05 2011 at 1:39 AM Rating: Good
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blueazaka wrote:
I'm watching a guy craft alone in an isolated part of Gridania. He has away status and doesn't respond to my presence. He uses the standard synthesis command every 4 seconds. After each synthesis ends he waits 60 seconds before starting the next one. He crafts the same item each time. Today he went from R28 to R31 (within the last 19 hours). I'm pretty sure he's a bot but I want to make sure before I report him. I thought bots couldn't use abilities, but he uses the 2 he has every time. Can bots use abilities or is he just <insert excuse here>?

Edited, Mar 5th 2011 1:31am by blueazaka

From what I understand, yes, the bot(s) that the masses have can be set to use abilities.

Edited, Mar 5th 2011 2:40am by Coyohma
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#99 Mar 05 2011 at 1:54 AM Rating: Decent
The bottom line is: If SE wanted to allow botting, they would add a crafting feature that allowed automatic repetition built into the crafting interface. They didn't.

Anyone with a credit card can get a bot, all botting proves is that you have neither the desire, or the patience, to play the game the way it is intended, and feel like you deserve an unfair advantage over the people that actually feel like following the rules.

I used to be one of the top 3 alchemists on Palamecia. Did I bot? Helz no. You know why I am not in the top 3 now? Because trying to keep up with obvious botters burned me out so bad I took a two month vacation. Now that I am back I am grinding again, but not as fast as before. Do I have a r50 job yet? No. But I have the satisfaction of being able to say that when I hit rank 50, it was because of my hard work and dedication and not because I cheated.
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