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Are you happy with skills being automatically learned?Follow

#1 Feb 11 2011 at 9:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Are you happy with skills being automatically learned upon level up?
It feels like wasting an entertaining timesink for no good reason.

It'd feel weird for SE to come and take away all our skills ... but I'd be happy if they did it. Then went all "okay, now you gotta hunt for them in chests and quests or buy some from npcs or farm a certain nm".


And then we'd go cherry picking for the skills we wanted.

Edited, Feb 11th 2011 10:55am by MajidahSihaam
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#2 Feb 11 2011 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm fine with it actually.
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#3 Feb 11 2011 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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Don't you have to buy your skills with Guild marks after Rank 20ish?

As far as automatically learning them, I think it's better for the game. Comparing to FFXI how many times did you get a RDM who hadn't bought Dispel yet? Or a WHM who didn't buy the teleport spells? What about a NIN tank who hadn't bought Utsusemi:Ni yet? Buying spells really seems like just an inconvenience especially since questing them required a group or being much higher in level than the spell actually required.

Even if the quest to obtain skills was easily soloable at the rank needed to use the skill, you're still going to have people who just want to rank up as fast as possible and skip those skills. For solo play that's fine, but why inconvenience party play?
#4 Feb 11 2011 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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It would be fun to have to run personal quests that you can do with others trying to get the same skill.
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#5 Feb 11 2011 at 10:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Seventhblood wrote:
It would be fun to have to run personal quests that you can do with others trying to get the same skill.


Maybe add some skills that are not tied to any class at all? That you can earn by completing quests, or faction leves or something. Guild Wars messed with that idea a bit, but they often ended up too powerful
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#6 Feb 11 2011 at 10:30 AM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Don't you have to buy your skills with Guild marks after Rank 20ish?

The vast majority of skills and spells are learned when you rank up. only a handful of skill can be bought with marks. For the most part the traits you buy with marks are latent.
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#7 Feb 11 2011 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Don't you have to buy your skills with Guild marks after Rank 20ish?

As far as automatically learning them, I think it's better for the game. Comparing to FFXI how many times did you get a RDM who hadn't bought Dispel yet? Or a WHM who didn't buy the teleport spells? What about a NIN tank who hadn't bought Utsusemi:Ni yet? Buying spells really seems like just an inconvenience especially since questing them required a group or being much higher in level than the spell actually required.

Even if the quest to obtain skills was easily soloable at the rank needed to use the skill, you're still going to have people who just want to rank up as fast as possible and skip those skills. For solo play that's fine, but why inconvenience party play?



To distinguish yourself.

XIV's armoury system is all about character customization. Having everyone learn the same skills at the same time contradcits this. Currently there is nothing stopping you from grinding your way to 50. But if you were missing the key skills, you'd have to stop the grind in order to acquire them in order to progress or suffer the consequences.
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#8 Feb 11 2011 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
I wouldn't mind if there were certain skills that you gained through questing. IMO you get a few too many spells each rank up early on, maybe in situations where you gain multiple skills or spells you get to choose 1 and quest for the others... I dunno.

I wouldn't mind class locked equipment that offered special skills, but that could create problems all on its own.

Edited, Feb 11th 2011 5:07pm by PerrinofSylph
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#9 Feb 11 2011 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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I want a similar system to IX/Tactics in a MMO, where you learn abilities from equipment. I think it would be awesome o to kill a notorious monster and get a piece of equipment that teaches you something for your class. Of course, this could potentially get ugly if S-E didn't add other methods of learning abilities. "Sorry, I don't have [insert spell/ability here], the mob is over-camped.
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#10 Feb 11 2011 at 11:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Depends on the skill. Teleport spells? Sure, those can be bought. Refresh or Erase and other essential skills? No way. There'll be way too many times that the only tank or healer for miles is the one missing an essential skill or 8.
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#11 Feb 11 2011 at 11:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
Don't you have to buy your skills with Guild marks after Rank 20ish?

As far as automatically learning them, I think it's better for the game. Comparing to FFXI how many times did you get a RDM who hadn't bought Dispel yet? Or a WHM who didn't buy the teleport spells? What about a NIN tank who hadn't bought Utsusemi:Ni yet? Buying spells really seems like just an inconvenience especially since questing them required a group or being much higher in level than the spell actually required.

Even if the quest to obtain skills was easily soloable at the rank needed to use the skill, you're still going to have people who just want to rank up as fast as possible and skip those skills. For solo play that's fine, but why inconvenience party play?



To distinguish yourself.

XIV's armoury system is all about character customization. Having everyone learn the same skills at the same time contradcits this. Currently there is nothing stopping you from grinding your way to 50. But if you were missing the key skills, you'd have to stop the grind in order to acquire them in order to progress or suffer the consequences.


To further expand on this thought process, it also adds a sort of "goal within a goal". Now instead of just hoping to get to rank 30 by the end of the weekend, now you strive to reach rank 30 and complete the XXXXXX quest to learn YYYYYY ability for your Gladiator. These small achievements, no matter how minute they may seem to others, are the things that have always driven me forward in an MMO. They make "The Grind" seem less grindy. FFXIV is currently lacking this feel, at least in my opinion...
#12 Feb 11 2011 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
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The only reason you wouldn't automatically is that you can call someone gimp and kick them from your group because they didn't have X skill that's demanded by the community. Red Mage without Refresh, Ninja without Utsusemi, Summoner without all the avatars, etc etc...

Why would anyone who doesn't enjoy a game that hates them want to have to buy or quest to obtain every ability? Are Final Fantsay players that masochistic? Is the grind to 50 not bad enough?
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#13 Feb 11 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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no. And on that topic pretty much anything given free without a quest/challenge is bad too. Increased inventory sizes, maps area unlocks new classes none have any quests to unlock them.

The reward is sp or money. yay =(
#14 Feb 11 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
Don't you have to buy your skills with Guild marks after Rank 20ish?

As far as automatically learning them, I think it's better for the game. Comparing to FFXI how many times did you get a RDM who hadn't bought Dispel yet? Or a WHM who didn't buy the teleport spells? What about a NIN tank who hadn't bought Utsusemi:Ni yet? Buying spells really seems like just an inconvenience especially since questing them required a group or being much higher in level than the spell actually required.

Even if the quest to obtain skills was easily soloable at the rank needed to use the skill, you're still going to have people who just want to rank up as fast as possible and skip those skills. For solo play that's fine, but why inconvenience party play?



To distinguish yourself.

XIV's armoury system is all about character customization. Having everyone learn the same skills at the same time contradcits this. Currently there is nothing stopping you from grinding your way to 50. But if you were missing the key skills, you'd have to stop the grind in order to acquire them in order to progress or suffer the consequences.


Yes, 100%. Yes.
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#15 Feb 11 2011 at 1:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't mind having all the basic skills handed to you freely, but I'd guess sometime in the future we can come to expect some quested skills as well. The problem with FFXI's spell-buying was that you had to have them (unless you're a Bard, arguably) so there wasn't any hint of individuality, just a roadblock that stopped you getting parties until you could afford that rare scroll or two.

To truly give any idea of individuality there would have to be defined choices made. Skills that you would have to sacrifice learning in order to obtain others. Some games do this by giving you a limited number of points to learn spells with, other games do this by adding elite classes which alter the way your character evolves.

I'd like to see something like that, but maybe in FFXIV's more distant future.
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#16 Feb 11 2011 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
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Quanta wrote:
Depends on the skill. Teleport spells? Sure, those can be bought. Refresh or Erase and other essential skills? No way. There'll be way too many times that the only tank or healer for miles is the one missing an essential skill or 8.


This.

Also, I would like to see more perk-like skills in the game that could be quested... like a fire-affinity trait that unlocked AOE fire-based skills on GLA, for example would be neat. Stuff that wouldn't be considered essential for a party but would set you apart would be cool. But basics? No way.

Plus - it was SO UNEQUAL in XI. Dancer automatically learned everything... and melee learned all their weaponskills for free - meanwhile mages had to farm and farm and farm. (And worse, because mages sucked at soloing most prey... I had to level A WHOLE OTHER JOB to farm with) It sucked. It sucked so bad. I hated it.

I want to play the game to do fun things - not to slave away killing caterpillars for silk and little/no EXP just so I can afford the basic spells I need not to get laughed out of a party. Crap like that is why I quit XI. That's not fun. It didn't make me feel more accomplished. It just sapped my will to play the game.

[Also why my highest job ever was BLU - I didn't mind earning the spells - but not through the marketplace - anything essential for my level I could get with a little work with mobs]

Edited, Feb 11th 2011 7:21pm by Olorinus
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#17 Feb 11 2011 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes very happy.
#18 Feb 11 2011 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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reptiletim wrote:
The only reason you wouldn't automatically is that you can call someone gimp and kick them from your group because they didn't have X skill that's demanded by the community. Red Mage without Refresh, Ninja without Utsusemi, Summoner without all the avatars, etc etc...

Why would anyone who doesn't enjoy a game that hates them want to have to buy or quest to obtain every ability? Are Final Fantsay players that masochistic? Is the grind to 50 not bad enough?


100% this
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#19 Feb 11 2011 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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I would like to see more skills that can be learned from guild points. things that can add to a job but nothing that is a must have. As for the skills and spells we learn automatically I think that the elemental spells could be spread out a bit rather then getting all six at one time
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#20 Feb 11 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
Are you happy with skills being automatically learned upon level up?
It feels like wasting an entertaining timesink for no good reason.

It'd feel weird for SE to come and take away all our skills ... but I'd be happy if they did it. Then went all "okay, now you gotta hunt for them in chests and quests or buy some from npcs or farm a certain nm".


And then we'd go cherry picking for the skills we wanted.


At least it would feel like I've actually earned something if I had to get skills like that; how it is now I've just plowed through 2-3 hit diminuitive rodents; tiny, tiny bats; or swaying, weak jellyfish things to get my abilities.
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#21 Feb 11 2011 at 4:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Is the grind to 50 not bad enough?

Yes, it IS bad enough. That's why I'd like to have other ways to advance my character.
#22 Feb 11 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the system as it is, levels the playing field for those players who don't have a lot of time to spend playing each day with those who can spend all day playing. At least that's what I think S-E's motivation for allowing all the (Battle class) abilities to be automatically acquired. The perceived reasoning behind this current system seems sound although the implementation needs work. Perhaps something like what craft classes/gather classes have at the moment (some abilities are bought with guild marks, while others are learned automatically) would be a good alternative.

Although I'm basing all that on an assumption that may be completely off base.
#23 Feb 11 2011 at 6:03 PM Rating: Good
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The current system is fine. They could add more guildmark skills, or when quests come out they could add some quested skills perhaps.

I'd like to see Travel alternatives that use abilities, even if they have to be quested.
EQ1 people may recognize this but Spirit of Wolf anyone? Some AOE buffs for movement speed for the party (Not quite mazurka but you get the idea) ?

Automatic skill gains are fine, though I suppose if Conjurers had to learn the Ancient Magics via quests that would have been cooler (But if they did this, they better make better spell animations first!).
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#24 Feb 11 2011 at 6:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
(But if they did this, they better make better spell animations first!).

Spirit darts are not even visible.



Edited, Feb 11th 2011 7:08pm by Rinsui
#25 Feb 11 2011 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
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reptiletim wrote:
The only reason you wouldn't automatically is that you can call someone gimp and kick them from your group because they didn't have X skill that's demanded by the community. Red Mage without Refresh, Ninja without Utsusemi, Summoner without all the avatars, etc etc...

Why would anyone who doesn't enjoy a game that hates them want to have to buy or quest to obtain every ability? Are Final Fantsay players that masochistic? Is the grind to 50 not bad enough?



LOL if you think the grind is bad on this game you should play XI from 1-99 pre FOV and pre Abysea...LOL that's is all I have to say...LAWLS.
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#26 Feb 11 2011 at 6:20 PM Rating: Default
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
(But if they did this, they better make better spell animations first!).

Spirit darts are not even visible.


last I checked, neither is "spirit"
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#27 Feb 11 2011 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
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I'm fine with it but I think we have to many and get them too often.
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#28 Feb 11 2011 at 9:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah learning most of them is how it should be.

The rest you need to grind (get marks) for. It would be very cool if we had to quest for our most powerful abilities. We'll see.
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#29 Feb 11 2011 at 9:23 PM Rating: Good
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Transmigration wrote:
Yeah learning most of them is how it should be.

The rest you need to grind (get marks) for. It would be very cool if we had to quest for our most powerful abilities. We'll see.


Agreed, top, final or uber skills should be quested. It would make sense.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#30 Feb 12 2011 at 1:49 AM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
(But if they did this, they better make better spell animations first!).

Spirit darts are not even visible.


last I checked, neither is "spirit"


That's not a very viable defence... we can conjure a black cloud of "Damnation" on somebody, walls of stone, and green-bursts of wind; when we punch in a primal style, our arms glow purple; heck, whenever we do anything noteworthy, a heavenly spotlight illuminates the ground... and you're saying that a visual representation of "spirit" (even though we fight ghosts) would come off as awkward?
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#31 Feb 12 2011 at 2:14 AM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
(But if they did this, they better make better spell animations first!).

Spirit darts are not even visible.


last I checked, neither is "spirit"


>.>/ Lame excuse.
So please show me those javelins, arrows and chakrams in flight.
#32 Feb 12 2011 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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LillithaFenimore wrote:
reptiletim wrote:
The only reason you wouldn't automatically is that you can call someone gimp and kick them from your group because they didn't have X skill that's demanded by the community. Red Mage without Refresh, Ninja without Utsusemi, Summoner without all the avatars, etc etc...

Why would anyone who doesn't enjoy a game that hates them want to have to buy or quest to obtain every ability? Are Final Fantsay players that masochistic? Is the grind to 50 not bad enough?



LOL if you think the grind is bad on this game you should play XI from 1-99 pre FOV and pre Abysea...LOL that's is all I have to say...LAWLS.


I levelled Red Mage (good god all the spells you gotta buy), Summoner, White Mage, and Black Mage in FFXI prior to FoV. While I was a level 40 Red Mage saving up for a grossly overpriced Scroll of Refresh (during the great RMT mega-inflation) a Samurai in the party was dishing out all of it's sweet sweet damage with only his gear to worry about. He didn't have to pour resources into gear AND spells. When I quit I decided I'd never play a game that hated me that much again.

I know it's just a pipe dream, but I really wish people would stop wanting FFXIV to be FFXI-2.


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#33 Feb 12 2011 at 11:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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I know it's just a pipe dream, but I really wish people would stop wanting FFXIV to be FFXI-2.

Statements like these are a straw man. Nobody wanted FFXI-2 -- even after seven years, there were still things about FFXI that were badly designed and made little sense, and that everyone was happy to be rid of. What people wanted was for SE to remember what they learned in FFXI and keep the good stuff, not tossing out the baby with the bathwater. Change is worthwhile only when it's improvement.

Or did you really think that it was a step forward not to have inventory sorting?

Alternative methods of character advancement other than grinding are a good thing, because otherwise you're left with only grinding. FFXI's problem in this regard wasn't that having to earn your spells or weaponskills or gear was un-fun, it's that it was unfair. Some jobs had to do too much (especially the mage jobs early in the game's life), and others had to do almost nothing. But that's a problem with the execution, not with the idea.

Getting every spell for a Blue Mage was challenging (and a little too arbitrary), but still great fun. Questing teleports for White Mage, or Warp for Black Mage, was pretty cool. Even earning gil to get that "required" piece of gear or spell was often a nice break from leveling, with a satisfying feeling of lateral progression. when I started playing FFXI, going through the 50's was fun, and something people really looked forward to, because AF gear was waiting, with some (at the time) challenging quests to earn valuable gear. Even though some of them were worthless, plenty of people diligently collected quested weaponskills like they were Pokémon, because it was fun and a nice way to permanently add things to your character.

FFXIV has a little of this with Guild Mark abilities, but it could use a lot more. Right now, you grind to improve, and that's it. If having enough gil is apparently not going to be a challenge in FFIV, then the game needs to give us interesting quests or other challenges that have rewards in terms of character advancement.
#34 Feb 12 2011 at 11:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Ceasura, I guess you're right, because I keep forgetting this is a Final Fantasy MMO we're talking about. Apparently players are expected to spend years in logged-in hours to get anywhere. When that kind of time requirement is mandatory it's easy to see why players would be grasping for accomplishments like finally buying that spell or ability the community demands so you don't get kicked from your group like a noob in the Dunes.

I'm tempted to shift my opinion just for the sake of having more content than killing rats for 30 levels, but I think content could be served better. My observations of MMOs so far is that in the beginning things are cool and it's all in fun, but things start to get increasingly serious until at one point you're either a min/max perfectionist or you're told to just gtfo. Then the game becomes a 2nd job that starts to interfere with your social life. Realizing this, I can't help but think the addition of having to purchase abilities too is just another burden on an already taxed player.

IMO, I just think I'd rather be thinking up a working strategy for a tough fight than wondering how I'm going to obtain all the abilities I need.
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#35 Feb 13 2011 at 5:51 AM Rating: Decent
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I am ok with this, but I wouldnt mind some skills that needed work for, also there are alot of unimplemented skill in the code atm, perhaps if these get implemented you will have to quest em or kill a NM.
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