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Question to crafters: should secondary tool be removed?Follow

#1 Feb 12 2011 at 12:49 AM Rating: Excellent
Hey all,

I don't have a craft above 20 yet, so I haven't needed to use a secondary tool. However, I was spamming brass rings the other night and was thinking how the crafting UI could be more streamlined if we only had primary crafting tools.

Right now, you can use the recipes button to gather the ingredients for the recipe you previously made. However, you then return to the standard synth window. You then have to pick a tool, then choose your recipe AGAIN, and only then can you start up your synth. If you only had the option of using a main hand tool, then you could use the recipe button to collect your items, and then you could start crafting immediately.

Is there a huge point of having secondary tools that I just haven't discovered yet? If not, then I'd rather have a faster/simpler UI if that meant getting rid of secondary tools.

Thoughts?
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#2 Feb 12 2011 at 12:55 AM Rating: Default
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Well I don't rightly know seeing as my highest craft is 17 weaver but I would assume spinning thread on a wheel would be more efficient then weaving it with a needle
#3 Feb 12 2011 at 1:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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They'd have to figure a new way for us to manipulate the results, quantity HQ vs quality HQ.. I like my grinding wheel, but I could see where people are annoyed by having to choose main/offhand in the crafting process.

To actually answer the question though, I say no, keep offhand, but make a smarter UI with it. There's absolutely no reason why you should have to select the item to synth after you've selected the item to synth ... You should also be able to select a default main or secondary tool to use, so you don't have to choose for every freaking synth.

Recipes -> Screen with all necessary info -> Synthesis starts should be it.

Edited, Feb 12th 2011 2:24am by Coyohma
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#4 Feb 12 2011 at 1:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:

I don't have a craft above 20 yet, so I haven't needed to use a secondary tool.


Wait what?

I always use my grinding wheel when making anything from bone or using "bone carving" on goldsmith and im only 17.

I found the secondary tool invaluable depending on the synth type and find it easier to make bone or other carved materials.

Additionally it's vastly easier to make thread on weaving by using the loom secondary tool versus the needle, as would make sense.


So my opinion is no. I like the secondary tool and I'm not anywhere near a high level crafter. Am I wrong in this "feeling" that the secondary tool helps crafting certain crafts even at level one or is this just a feeling and not a fact?
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#5 Feb 12 2011 at 1:40 AM Rating: Excellent
Smarter UI... like main synth window --> Recipes list --> new window for tool preference --> synth?

Or for synths not on your list... main synth window --> new window for tool preference --> synth?


EDIT: Maybe I should play around with my secondary tools... I have goldsmithing at close to level 19 and blacksmithing around level 16, and I've never had to use them yet.

Edited, Feb 11th 2011 11:49pm by Thayos
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#6 Feb 12 2011 at 1:48 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Smarter UI... like main synth window --> Recipes list --> new window for tool preference --> synth?

Or for synths not on your list... main synth window --> new window for tool preference --> synth?

When you initially go to synth, you know where they have Main Hand and Off Hand now? Make that into one thing where you can choose either or, and it's now set indefinitely.. They can even have a cute symbol displaying which is selected if they want, lol.

Whether you're synthing from Recipes or normally, that tool will be used. Pretty easy to change it, too, as it's right there.

Edited, Feb 12th 2011 3:02am by Coyohma
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#7 Feb 12 2011 at 1:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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When you initially go to synth, you know where they have Main Hand and Off Hand now? Make that into thing where you can choose either or, and it's now set indefinitely.. And whether you're synthing from Recipes or normally, that tool will be used. Pretty easy to change it, too, as it's right there.


That would do it!

I really enjoy crafting in this game. I barely crafted in FFXI because I could never really afford it, and I love that in FFXIV, you can start crafting with very little gil because of the leve system. However, the crafting UI is a good example of something in this game that "works," but still needs a lot of cleaning up.
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#8 Feb 12 2011 at 3:21 AM Rating: Good
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Just FYI, there are 5 DoH with only r47 Main Hand and 3 DoH with only r47 Off Hand tool, this isn't just a random thing someone decided to put in for fun >_> well maybe they did put it in for fun. But the point is, there's a distinct difference between Main Hand and Off Hand it probably isn't just about HQ. Off Hand typically have more Mag. Craft, so in my opinion the 3 DoH that only has r47 Off Hand are probably more Mag. Craft oriented.
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#9 Feb 12 2011 at 3:24 AM Rating: Good
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Coyohma wrote:
They'd have to figure a new way for us to manipulate the results, quantity HQ vs quality HQ.. I like my grinding wheel, but I could see where people are annoyed by having to choose main/offhand in the crafting process.

To actually answer the question though, I say no, keep offhand, but make a smarter UI with it. There's absolutely no reason why you should have to select the item to synth after you've selected the item to synth ... You should also be able to select a default main or secondary tool to use, so you don't have to choose for every freaking synth.

Recipes -> Screen with all necessary info -> Synthesis starts should be it.


^ This.
#10 Feb 12 2011 at 3:47 AM Rating: Good
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For someone with only 1-3 crafts it is no problem. For someone like me, that has them all, a secondary tool would take up too much space. Because of this, they aren't used.
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#11 Feb 12 2011 at 4:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:

I really enjoy crafting in this game. I barely crafted in FFXI because I could never really afford it, and I love that in FFXIV, you can start crafting with very little gil because of the leve system. However, the crafting UI is a good example of something in this game that "works," but still needs a lot of cleaning up.


I'm the other way around, as I enjoyed the way FFXI did crafting a bit more. Back in FFXI, crafting still took a lot of time and effort to level... But, if you had enough gil, you could shoot to cap in a craft in very little time. That was the exception though, in general, it still took quite a while, except much of that time spent was out in the field gathering mats, doing various things to make enough gil to pay for your crafts, making social connections to support you or scratch each others backs, etc. etc. etc. Once you had actually procured all your mats, it was only a few minutes of actually mashing synths.

Now, it's just raw hours of synthing... There's very little else involved in crafting... Maybe at times, you'll need to go gather mats, but even then, it's the same mat til near 50. I got to 40ish on cotton bolls. That's it. Just cotton bolls and the crystals needed to use them. Now it's flax til 50... Might be more varied in other crafts, but weaver is so boring in that respect. In ffxi, to cap leather, I needed a ton of different stuff, and getting out there to farm it, or earn gil to buy it took me all over the game, and I had fun with it.

But now?... You just sit and synth for hours upon hours... Gil just drops in your lap, so you can just pile up on mats and go back to the synth grind. Sure it seems great early on, but later, it really wears on you, which is why I've made about 2 levels in weaving since december. I guess it's a plus that people can't just shoot to cap anymore, but honestly I'd prefer dealing with that and have a versatile and fun crafting experience, over it being what it is now.

Either way, my best advice is to either make crafting parties with your friends, or do something else while mashing A with a gamepad. Then crafting can still be fun. But without either of those things, I probably wouldn't have made it past 30 weaver, and I loved crafting in FFXI. At least they made harder synths give more sp now, so it goes twice as fast at least.

As far as tweaks to the actual UI... Higher framerates for actions, getting rid of all the extra pop up windows, and a dropdown menu for tool selection that, like was said, stays selected indefinitely until you change it, would all be welcome. And rapid synth needs a buff so it's viable during SP synths.

But I don't think they should eliminate the offhand tool. They do serve a pretty good purpose. Sure, with trivial things like cotton yarn, you might think it'd never be worth going for a few extra when you can have HQ ones instead... But for example, when we got our first Dodore wing +3... It was a tough call whether we wanted offhand, for a chance at HQ doublet mats, or higher yield, for an extra doublet. We ended up going for higher yield since the highest offhand tool has crummy stats compared to the highest mainhand tool, but still, nice to have that choice. I'm sure future items will also be like that too, where both tools offer very tempting results.
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#12 Feb 12 2011 at 4:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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There's little that the secondary tool does which can't be done equally on the main-hand. I've heard tales that it's easier to HQ or craft threads using a spinning wheel (weaver), but I've found it just as easy or difficult with either main or off-hand tools.

What they should really do, in all honesty, is restrict certain recipes to certain tools. If you want to weave thread, get a spinning wheel, if you want to stitch a dress use a needle. After all, who ever heard of making a tunic, complete with leather sewn in, using only a spinning wheel?
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#13 Feb 12 2011 at 5:27 AM Rating: Good
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Glitterhands wrote:
There's little that the secondary tool does which can't be done equally on the main-hand. I've heard tales that it's easier to HQ or craft threads using a spinning wheel (weaver), but I've found it just as easy or difficult with either main or off-hand tools.


It's not about how easy it is to get HQ with either tool, it's about what HQ equals with either tool.

For example:

If a weaver were to take some cotton bolls, and synth cotton yarn with a main hand tool, and got a HQ, you would gain + 1/2/3 yarns. If you did the same synth with an offhand tool, and got a HQ, you would gain extra NQ yarns, but no +'s.

Now for yarn, being that it's so common, most would tell you to always use the main hand tool, and that it's a no brainer.(with rare exceptions)

But like I said above, if you get a +3 dodore wing or another item like that... With a main hand tool, you can get HQ leathers to increase your chances at making a HQ doublet. With the offhand tool, you can get extra leves, which gives you a shot at making 2 doublets with 1 wing, when without HQ's, 1 wing normally = 1 doublet.

Now with items like that, both tools offer tempting potential results.
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#14 Feb 12 2011 at 7:14 AM Rating: Good
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If they remove offhand tools, they would have to add a new mechanic for when an item HQs. How would we as a player decide if we want quantity or quality as our HQ choice?
Removing choice from the players in this game right now isn't a good idea.

When we want a HQ weapon or armor, using the correct tool is something that adds depth to the game. The system suits the mechanics nicely. If anything, they need to add more content to the crafting mechanics rather than taking them away.
#15 Feb 12 2011 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
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i would say just make secondary crafting tools equip in the main hand, that would eliminate needing to choose what tool during crating. just pick what tool you want to use before hand and off you go.
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#16 Feb 12 2011 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
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elevencharle wrote:
i would say just make secondary crafting tools equip in the main hand, that would eliminate needing to choose what tool during crating. just pick what tool you want to use before hand and off you go.


Thats a good idea. I did not have any secondary tools until I got most of my crafts in the R20 range. To me they were useless. Once I had everything around r20, I took some time to try crafting what I could from the materials I gathered. First - I made myself a couple +2 secondary tools, then I started pumping out HQ components. This is where I gained my true appreciation of secondary tools, as they give us choice in HQ results.

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#17 Feb 12 2011 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If you only had the option of using a main hand tool, then you could use the recipe button to collect your items, and then you could start crafting immediately.


That's not the fix. The fix is to change the options when you choose a recipe. Instead of Prepare/Back/Details, they should have Main/Sub/Back. I suppose they could keep Prepare/Details as well. I'm not sure what the recipe book does with +1/+2/+3 materials, but I always figured the reason prepare was there was to allow you to substitute in the HQ materials.
#18 Feb 12 2011 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
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I really like the secondary tools giving different HQ results on some items, but I agree the mechanics are clunky. Maybe at some point if they're looking at the crafting UI again, to change it to a check box, or selectable option as to which you use.
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#19 Feb 12 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I love my grinding wheel lol. Aside the mechanics behind offhand/onhand for DoH I prefer the animation more as well.
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#20 Feb 12 2011 at 12:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I personaly do not use secondary tools at all.

BUT

given that their main purpose is for alternate HQ results, they should stay, they have a purpose.

Whereas a Main tool may give you 12 +1 items
a secondary will give you 16 of the item on the same HQ....
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#21 Feb 13 2011 at 12:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Any easy fix would be a "Repeat" button instead of a "recipe" function.

The "Repeat" would automatically put in your items as well as whatever tool you selected for the latest synth.
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#22 Feb 13 2011 at 5:59 AM Rating: Decent
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My very first HQ3 was from the OH tool, got 2 radiant earth moraines from an earth rock. I use my OH tool for grinding rocks on gold, yarn on weaving, grinding fish and fine sand for crystals on alch. With certain items, the synth with the OH tool seems to have a better progression rate, when compared to MH tool.

Getting different results via the different tools keeps crafting interesting.
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