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No penalties upon death.Follow

#1 Feb 12 2011 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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Okay, this is gonna be a touchy topic.

I dislike that there's no penalty for dying in this game. Casting raise seems pointless. All it does is save someone a few minutes long run.

I'm not saying the only option is to implement exp loss upon death (nor that I would be against that), but currently the lack of a proper penalty takes away the focus in battle from many players, me included. Nothing's lost if someone dies, nothing's lost if I die, so why sweat much over it?

Something I thought up while typing this is an exp debt. Like if you died once and homepoint'ed you'd have to clear a 500 SP buffer before gaining SP again. Double death? 1k SP buffer. Or something along those lines.

What do you guys think? Are you ok with having only weakness as penalty? Which kind of penalty would you guys suggest?
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#2 Feb 12 2011 at 3:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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This topic has been debated on numerous occasions and its never one sided. As a gamer who has been playing mmo's since Everquest I'd have to say the death penalty needs to be a lot more than just an inconvenience. But since I'm older and don't have much time I also have to agree with the casual gamers who like not having to be punished for dying. Truth is you'll never find a middle ground for both sides.
#3 Feb 12 2011 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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The thing is, anything casual is boring. Like lady gaga once said, "if it is not rough it isnt fun." Hardcore is ahem* always better. For anything. :rolls eye:
#4 Feb 12 2011 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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I leave the shadows to post this...

I believe that part of me likes the fact that there's no lasting penalty for dying but part of me is deeply saddened. I submit to you some anecdotal evidence:

Ages ago when Bibiki Bay was the spot to level and we did as such on birds called Tragopans (may their souls fester eternally in the pit of merciless fire) I was in a group as generic DD, I don't remember exactly what. But a mage had died and in order to offset his lost exp, another mage raised him... Now tragopans and similar birds had a move called Damnation Dive in which they dived and hit in a cone in front of them. No sooner had the mage been given the raise animation and stood on his feet then he was back face down. Now I'm generally a thoughtful person but I thought that was the most hilarious thing I had ever seen. Of all the moments to get up, of all the moves for the mob to use...

Situations like these require certain pre-requisites, and I have yet to feel any strong emotion, such as this from this game. I know we must wait, but I thought I would share this experience of mine.
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#5 Feb 12 2011 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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Once we have more transportation methods I believe we will see something like: 1 anima loss upon death, unless raised, if out of anima return to home city.
#6 Feb 12 2011 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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I personally liked the rather insubstantial death penalty in FFXIII myself. That way fights can be made harder as well, as losing is not so punishing. I remember having to sit through 10 minutes of dialog and pointless fights in FFVI everytime I died, but fortunately the game was easy to make up for it.
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#7 Feb 12 2011 at 4:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've read this argument made by people way smarter than me, but I'll try. Adding a harsh death penalty doesn't make the content more challenging, just more frustrating. The act of failing and simply having to start over is plenty. You don't win an encounter (ie die), you don't get the benefits, thats fair, but when games either prevent you from playing (ie, rez sickness timer), or undoes progress (ie EXP penalty, having to recover gear), that's going a bit too far.

And if you want to read it from someone smarter than me, Heres a link to a guy on the escapist who wrote about it a few times,
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/8450-Experienced-Points-The-Death-of-the-Death-Penalty
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#8 Feb 12 2011 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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Absolutely not. XP debt is a horrible time sink. Wasting time gaining xp lost from pugs, no. I prefer spending that time on ranking up another class. I couldn't imagine getting killed by a mob on one of my crafting or gathering classes and loosing xp, that'd make me quit the game.

Edited, Feb 12th 2011 5:41pm by Spyrit178
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#9 Feb 12 2011 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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When players die, they should take gear damage imo.
#10 Feb 12 2011 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
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I hate death penalties in games personally. I think failing and having to walk back to whatever I was doing is punishment enough. People get so upset in groups that waste their time and cost them exp or gear damage. If there isn't that much to lose, they are a lot nicer about failing and more willing to keep trying.
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#11 Feb 12 2011 at 4:57 PM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:
I've read this argument made by people way smarter than me, but I'll try. Adding a harsh death penalty doesn't make the content more challenging, just more frustrating. The act of failing and simply having to start over is plenty. You don't win an encounter (ie die), you don't get the benefits, thats fair, but when games either prevent you from playing (ie, rez sickness timer), or undoes progress (ie EXP penalty, having to recover gear), that's going a bit too far.

And if you want to read it from someone smarter than me, Heres a link to a guy on the escapist who wrote about it a few times,
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/8450-Experienced-Points-The-Death-of-the-Death-Penalty


On the other hand, a penalty does a lot for immersion. And thats what XIV is missing,

Who here didn't grip fearfully at his controller when cruising the shadow lord's castle for the first time? Opening door by door, afraid of every turn and every sneak that wore off?

FFXIV has nothing remotely similar to that feeling of immersion because there's nothing to lose.
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#12 Feb 12 2011 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
Die 3x as a Mage in behest and see how you feel about that. Just running behind everyone not being able to do anything other than walk sucks. I hate feeling like a leach. I had aggro mobs spawn on me 3x in a row, so it's not like I AoEd something and it was my fault. It was bad luck with spawns ala certain popular online FPSs. Sometimes there's just nothing you can do about it. However having a time limit for an activity you can't expect your PT to wait for you. So I followed and leached.

I agree though I prefered the XP loss over gear damage method. If we'd stayed with XP loss BUT kept it from being able to level down I think I would have prefered that method. It adds a bit more risk vs reward to the game. Currently that IS lacking. I haven't got to try NMs other Faction Leve ones (even then I haven't got further than the second stage so I suppose that doesn't even count as an NM til you get to the last one.
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#13 Feb 12 2011 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
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If there is no point or penalty to dying, why do we even die at all?

Ponder it.

Edited, Feb 12th 2011 6:06pm by DoctorMog
#14 Feb 12 2011 at 5:07 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If there is no point or penalty to dying, why do we even die at all?


The point is that we fail at succeeding. That's the penalty.
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#15 Feb 12 2011 at 5:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can understand that some people feel that a death penalty would be a nice additional challenge, but I personally don't agree. Having to run back from the crystal to where you were, wait for weakness to fade, and then start the battle all over again (if applicable) seems inconvenient enough for me.

And sometimes, running back to where you were is pretty darn inconvenient. For example, what if you die while killing stuff with your party, and to get back to your party you have to go past a bunch of higher-ranked-than-you aggressive critters all alone? And with no sneak/invisible type ability, and a lot of areas with aggressive mobs, a death penalty would really take the fun out of exploring. I'm having a hard enough time getting to Mor Dhona as is, no need to make dying even more of a pain than it already is! Besides, I think a death penalty would discourage players from taking risks and going for tougher mobs, which is arguably more fun for some people. Just my 2 cents though. ^^
#16 Feb 12 2011 at 5:13 PM Rating: Decent
MajidahSihaam wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
I've read this argument made by people way smarter than me, but I'll try. Adding a harsh death penalty doesn't make the content more challenging, just more frustrating. The act of failing and simply having to start over is plenty. You don't win an encounter (ie die), you don't get the benefits, thats fair, but when games either prevent you from playing (ie, rez sickness timer), or undoes progress (ie EXP penalty, having to recover gear), that's going a bit too far.

And if you want to read it from someone smarter than me, Heres a link to a guy on the escapist who wrote about it a few times,
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/8450-Experienced-Points-The-Death-of-the-Death-Penalty


On the other hand, a penalty does a lot for immersion. And thats what XIV is missing,

Who here didn't grip fearfully at his controller when cruising the shadow lord's castle for the first time? Opening door by door, afraid of every turn and every sneak that wore off?

FFXIV has nothing remotely similar to that feeling of immersion because there's nothing to lose.


Have you been to Mor Dhona? Not exactly a walk in the park and in this game there is no sneak/invis to sneak past the very nasty things on the way there. I also imagine as the zones expand outwards you will have farther and farther to travel and the paths will become more dangerous.

The xp penalty in FFXI was silly, getting KO'd isn't going to make you forget what you have learned.

Perhaps you death penalty sadists want it Fire Emblem bad, you die in the game you are dead for good. (Major characters excluded of course lol)
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#17 Feb 12 2011 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I've read this argument made by people way smarter than me, but I'll try. Adding a harsh death penalty doesn't make the content more challenging, just more frustrating.

That's a straw man. No one's asking for a "harsh" penalty -- people just want a non-trivial reason to care if they die or not. Ever play an arcade quarter-muncher like "Gauntlet" at home? It wears thin pretty fast when staying alive isn't saving you money.
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The point is that we fail at succeeding. That's the penalty.

That's not a penalty when you can just try again in three minutes. There are definitely times when failure is worse than death, but... not many.
#18 Feb 12 2011 at 5:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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True RPers will reroll their characters if they die :D
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#19 Feb 12 2011 at 5:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Something I thought up while typing this is an exp debt. Like if you died once and homepoint'ed you'd have to clear a 500 SP buffer before gaining SP again. Double death? 1k SP buffer. Or something along those lines.


this is enough to make alot of people quit i can imagine, not being able to EXP makes human beings very very angry lol put your penalties in other departments please.
gil loss? sure, rape my retainers i dont use? go right ahead i do it too, but waste my time and SP because i got freak agro from an imp and he decides to one/two shot ME? no, just... no.

the time sink and missing out on mobs dying for SP while im running back to the party is enough incentive for me to stay alive anyway.

Edited, Feb 12th 2011 6:38pm by pixelpop
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#20 Feb 12 2011 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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I think it's also worth mentioning that people won't ragequit over not having a death penalty.

I'm a pretty calm and collected individual really, but I've reached my limit in certain games with a death penalty. I lost my corpse in Everquest once and after dying like 6 times trying to get it out of the lava at the bottom of a dungeon and deleving twice, I just quit. I couldn't take it anymore. I never recovered the items I lost and I just quit the game for a while.

Don't you guys remember how sad you felt when you saw the "LEVEL DOWN!!!" pop up while you're laying face down in the dirt? It doesn't add anything besides frustration and sadness.
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#21 Feb 12 2011 at 5:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
I've read this argument made by people way smarter than me, but I'll try. Adding a harsh death penalty doesn't make the content more challenging, just more frustrating. The act of failing and simply having to start over is plenty. You don't win an encounter (ie die), you don't get the benefits, thats fair, but when games either prevent you from playing (ie, rez sickness timer), or undoes progress (ie EXP penalty, having to recover gear), that's going a bit too far.

And if you want to read it from someone smarter than me, Heres a link to a guy on the escapist who wrote about it a few times,
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/8450-Experienced-Points-The-Death-of-the-Death-Penalty


On the other hand, a penalty does a lot for immersion. And thats what XIV is missing,

Who here didn't grip fearfully at his controller when cruising the shadow lord's castle for the first time? Opening door by door, afraid of every turn and every sneak that wore off?

FFXIV has nothing remotely similar to that feeling of immersion because there's nothing to lose.


See, I feel that the death penalty changed nothing for me there. I would have felt the exact same if all I had to do was travel back, and have my sneak/invis partner have to come back and get me.

Caesura wrote:
Quote:
I've read this argument made by people way smarter than me, but I'll try. Adding a harsh death penalty doesn't make the content more challenging, just more frustrating.

That's a straw man. No one's asking for a "harsh" penalty -- people just want a non-trivial reason to care if they die or not. Ever play an arcade quarter-muncher like "Gauntlet" at home? It wears thin pretty fast when staying alive isn't saving you money.


In my opinion anyting other than having to reattempt the encounter/event is a harsh penalty, but it doesn't really matte forget the word harsh, its irrelevant to my point. What my main point with that comment was, an encounter is no more challenging because if failed, you have to pay X time/SP/XP/durability.

I'm not saying I don't see the appeal. I can understand that people do like being punished for failure, because it does make the game more enjoyable for them. But if I had to guess, I would say that more people do not want an arbitrary penalty on top of simply having to retry.


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#22 Feb 12 2011 at 6:07 PM Rating: Decent
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On the other hand, a penalty does a lot for immersion. And thats what XIV is missing,


aside arguing whether or not death penalties add to immersion, i think this game should probly focus on adding other non penalizing elements to the game to fix this games shallowness first, such as better NPC interaction (quests), alternate transportation so we can enjoy the quests in other cities and enjoy those cities market wards, and those oh so coveted class tweaks theyre promising.

for me well made NPC quests and way more veriety in gear (at least for mages sheesh) would help alot for imerssion.

Edited, Feb 12th 2011 7:07pm by pixelpop
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#23 Feb 12 2011 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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The core mechanic of character developement does not in any way shape or form support xp debt. Leves have timers, that is more than enough penalty. More than likely HNMs will have enrage timers. Not beating the clock is core mechanic penalty for failure. XP debt is not neccessary in MMOs any more. More specifically no one has that time to devote to a game any more.

Edited, Feb 12th 2011 7:11pm by Spyrit178
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#24 Feb 12 2011 at 6:11 PM Rating: Good
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At least *something* detrimental should happen.
Something more than a coffe break 'till weakness wears off.
I miss the thrill.
Then again, I miss a lot of other things even more ^.^/
#25 Feb 12 2011 at 6:23 PM Rating: Excellent
I'm not sure what to think about the lack of a death penalty. In FFXI, it was pretty much a non-issue because exp became so easy to come by, and there was usually a whm around who could cast Raise II or Raise III. There was no excuse really to not have your exp capped, so I was never in danger of de-leveling or anything. I did like the concept of a penalty for dying, but really, I'm not sure if the death penalty ever really gave me an enhanced sense of urgency in battle.

Rather than see a death penalty, I'd rather see SE crank up the difficulty of battle in FFXIV. To me, that's what made battles thrilling. I didn't want to die, because death meant not being able to contribute to the battle... on that note, weakness was far more of a penalty for me than exp loss.

I guess I don't really care if there's a death penalty or not, because it's more symbolic than anything else (unless it's more severe than it was in FFXI, which would probably **** people off).

I just want bigger, badder battles. I was telling my stepdaughter yesterday about some of my epic CoP battles, and SE would be foolish not to someday bring those kinds of fights into this game.
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#26 Feb 12 2011 at 7:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe everytime you die during a leve you should get a '30002 Error' and DC. Oh wait ... nm ...
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#27 Feb 12 2011 at 7:27 PM Rating: Good
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Personally I perfer a penalty for dying I play EVE Online and if any of you play this you know all to well of it's consequences from dying but that's just me
#28 Feb 12 2011 at 7:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

On the other hand, a penalty does a lot for immersion. And thats what XIV is missing,

Who here didn't grip fearfully at his controller when cruising the shadow lord's castle for the first time? Opening door by door, afraid of every turn and every sneak that wore off?

FFXIV has nothing remotely similar to that feeling of immersion because there's nothing to lose.


Even running past agro'ng mobs has no thrill!, i dont need to snk past them just keep running till they return to their territory!

Rinsui wrote:
At least *something* detrimental should happen.
Something more than a coffe break 'till weakness wears off.
I miss the thrill.
Then again, I miss a lot of other things even more ^.^/


May be not gaining sp if you die! anything that will movitate you to put some skill into staying alive!!

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#29 Feb 12 2011 at 9:10 PM Rating: Decent
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On the other hand, a penalty does a lot for immersion. And thats what XIV is missing


Dude you figured it out! Just punish us for trying something and make us lose xp! Oh how immersed we'll all be.

Come on, really?
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#30 Feb 12 2011 at 11:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Transmigration wrote:
Quote:
On the other hand, a penalty does a lot for immersion. And thats what XIV is missing


Dude you figured it out! Just punish us for trying something and make us lose xp! Oh how immersed we'll all be.

Come on, really?


If you fear something, then you care. If you care, you are immersed. Pretty easy to put two and two together.
XI had harsh punishments and required clockwork coordination which made it highly immersive.
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#31 Feb 13 2011 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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If you fear something, then you care. If you care, you are immersed. Pretty easy to put two and two together.
XI had harsh punishments and required clockwork coordination which made it highly immersive.


it isnt putting two and two together if your opinion is different than others.
for me its not going "/fear OMG IM GONNA LOSE EXP so i im totally scared to die."
its "OMG this servers lag is ******* retarded today, great i now foresee plenty of SP loss today, guess im gonna read a book or something...." um yeah, it totally immerses you doesnt it.

for me it isnt fear at all whatsoever shape or form because i know i can easily get it back, solo or no. for me its absolute irritation and i feel its nothing but a hindrance to my enjoyment. i dont need a game to slap me on the hand AND send me to my room for dying, like so many people have said before, being weakened and not being able to contribute to battle the way id like is penalty and immersion enough as far as death goes for me.
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#32 Feb 13 2011 at 7:35 AM Rating: Good
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No way, the weakness penalty is fine with me and I find that annoying because my character moves slower and my stamina gauge charges slower. Also when you die in a behest and your group moves on, you won't get SP/EXP until you return and fight with them again and by the time you catch up with them most of the mobs are gone. So that's one form of punishment. When I lost a level in FFXI, it ****** me the **** off because all that work it took me to get to that level, now I had to do it all over again. Doing something tedious over and over again is not fun.

To all the people that want to lose SP/EXP upon death, would you rather lose a full level (from PL and SL) each time you died?
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#33 Feb 13 2011 at 8:54 AM Rating: Excellent
I realize that it may not have made much of a difference in FFXI, but I still felt that the fact that you knew dying would cost you xp was a good thing. Personally, it made me think more about what I wanted to fight and how. If I knew death was possible, I put more strategy into my actions to prevent dying. Even though it may have been a small amount a lot of people were willing to sit for 40 min eating dirt for a whm to come r3 them in the middle of nowhere (and sometimes pay a hefty sum of gil to some random person that a buddy shouted for in whitegate, or searched your area for someone with raise and wanted compensation...).

That's just my 2 gil.
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#34 Feb 13 2011 at 9:25 AM Rating: Good
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Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
I realize that it may not have made much of a difference in FFXI, but I still felt that the fact that you knew dying would cost you xp was a good thing. Personally, it made me think more about what I wanted to fight and how. If I knew death was possible, I put more strategy into my actions to prevent dying. Even though it may have been a small amount a lot of people were willing to sit for 40 min eating dirt for a whm to come r3 them in the middle of nowhere (and sometimes pay a hefty sum of gil to some random person that a buddy shouted for in whitegate, or searched your area for someone with raise and wanted compensation...).

That's just my 2 gil.



This is so true.

If death is pointless as it is now it makes everything else a bit pointless too.

If death isn't a threat everything turns into a test of patience.

Who cares if you're lvl 50 or have the best gear ever it just means you played more than anyone else. It makes attaining lvl 50 less of an accomplishment because lvl 50 doesn't carry any "this is a good player"-status. Right now it's more like "this is the kind of player that plays facebook games until the mouse breaks"-status.
#35 Feb 13 2011 at 9:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Also this is the kind of thing that the players always seem to THINK they know what they want and it's the designer's job to see the bigger picture.

Sure everyone would like the sp to rain from heavens and the item bag size to be limitless. Everyone wants the traveling to be so fast that you can warp everywhere in seconds.

It's the designer's job to see how all these wishes break immersion and any sense of challenge in a game.

After the disastrous XIII I'm not sure these gameplay designers work at SE anymore.
#36 Feb 13 2011 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
seiferdincht wrote:
After the disastrous XIII I'm not sure these gameplay designers work at SE anymore.


Wasn't FFXIII Just a test run for the same engine running FFXIV? The game itself wasn't that bad. Made me feel like I was playing a revamped FFVIII with a new storyline, and personally that was fine by me. Game was "too short" though.
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#37 Feb 13 2011 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:


I just want bigger, badder battles. I was telling my stepdaughter yesterday about some of my epic CoP battles, and SE would be foolish not to someday bring those kinds of fights into this game.


I'd love to do the Airship Battle one more time. I remember when we set the record for it, I was so psyched! Someone later down the line told me the reset once I week, my feelings were hurt, :p
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#38 Feb 13 2011 at 9:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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I have a slightly different point of view on this. For me, I am much more willing to try fighting something considerable harder than I normally would, because I know that the penalty for doing so isn't insanely steep. This has really encouraged me not only to try fighting these tougher mobs, but also to explore more on my own and see more of what the game has to offer. Believe me, it is frustrating enough when you are in the middle of Mor Dhona and die, only to be ported back to Uldah or something because you haven't reached an aetheryte there to attune with.

Adding MORE to the death penalty does nothing to immerse me in the gameplay. If anything, it REMOVES some of that immersion because I feel like there is just more stuff for me to avoid instead of actively attempt.
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#39 Feb 13 2011 at 10:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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I seriously doubt we'll see SE add a death penalty, for obvious reasons. They have enough areas to improve the game that will be accepted by the overwhelming majority as an improvement that they can focus on. They don't have much room right now to alienate half their playerbase.

Though, I have to say as I've ranked up, death has had more of a feel of penalty. This is mainly due to having to fight your way back to where you were if you were SPing out away from an aetheryte. Mor Dhona can be a pain in this aspect, because a lot of things are agressive and maybe you only got through them with the help of your group, and maybe they only got through them with your help, so your death has just put a big dent in the SP grind.

Of course raise negates all that, which is one reason I think raise isn't useless, for those that feel it is.

Though I also think it's a silly argument to say that you fight harder/better/faster/stronger if you know you're going to lose XP or something. I mean, I can understand this when you're killing just for SP, sure, you're doing it to gain SP, so you don't want to lose it. And if you're soloing, it makes sense, plenty of room to be selfish when you're soloing. But when you're in a group, it's pretty crazy that your SP bar is your main priority, especially if you're fighting an NM or something for loot. You're not going to 'give it your all' just because you personally don't feel it's worth your effort because you don't have a good enough reason to stay alive?

It's different for everyone. Personally I think it's great that a small group of 40s can do something like "Hey, let's go see how hard the great buffalo will wreck us." That's something you do for only 1 reason, fun (or the free return, but in either case it's fun).

Fun and comradery create immersion just as well as fear. Death penalties impact both of these. It does in fact make certain events less fun, and it makes some more exciting, but more often than not the emotional response (which indicate immersion) can negatively impact the fun factor of more than just the person involved. It disheartens people and breaks groups. The more hardcore players are nearly immune to it anyway, dying is a party of progressing, and the penalty that comes with it is just a part of the game... but if that's you... is it really immersing you?
#40 Feb 13 2011 at 10:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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I find it unbelievable that people would want a death penalty. Death xp penalty is just a time sink, nothing more. Arguing it makes you more careful or adds to immersion is just silly. Once they add a dynamis-like event, you're gonna die, no matter how careful you are. Let it stay in FFXI and die there as a game concept.
#41 Feb 13 2011 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
44 posts
Yes, being punched in the gut by your teacher after you fail your assignment is such a fun experience. Get real.

Failing is punishment enough. Get out of the 1990's.


Edit: If harsh death penalties are what make the game exciting you could always delete your character when you die.

Edited, Feb 13th 2011 12:04pm by Seikninkuru
#42 Feb 13 2011 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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602 posts
Demon's Souls. Won game of the year.

If you die you drop all the souls you have on you, all the mobs respawn and they become stronger. You have to start from the beginning of the area.
And if you were in body form the world tendency drops one point into black.

Game. of. the. *******. year.
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FFXI: Dashiel. (Asura) Puppetmaster.
FFXIV: Majidah Sihaam. (Besaid)
Marauder, Weaver & Alchemist.

#43 Feb 13 2011 at 12:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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236 posts
I want to level and not be bothered to "re-earn" exp that I've already achieved just as much as anyone. I'm a student, I play college hockey, have a girlfriend and am as time-strapped as anyone else playing this game, so I also want to streamline my MMO experience with XIV as much as anybody. That said, without some form of death penalty the game is boring. When I'm doing a leve and I think to myself, "oh crap, I'm gonna die" I just look at the timer, realize there's 24 minutes left and that when weakness wears off there will still be 21 and I'll be fine and than that's it; I don't even care that I get killed. Death can't be a meaningful occurrence that you work hard to avoid (which it should be for the MMO to be fun) if NOTHING bad comes from it. I'll take the EXP loss like in XI. It made the game more fun; it made getting that cure when you're in the red SO much more meaningful and the battles more exciting. Even if you completely wipe in XIV, it's not that big of a deal. If you wiped in XI, it was a big deal, and it should be.
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#44 Feb 13 2011 at 12:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,313 posts
MCraine wrote:
It made the game more fun; it made getting that cure when you're in the red SO much more meaningful and the battles more exciting. Even if you completely wipe in XIV, it's not that big of a deal. If you wiped in XI, it was a big deal, and it should be.


If they do endgame correctly, it still will be MCraine. This is where it matters. One healer goes down, putting two groups + Tanks under the watch of one or 2 healers. Oh ****! Tank went down, ok there's still one up. AOE AOE RUN BACK! GET BEHIND THE PILLAR! *7People go down, another healer included* One healer can't handle the whole group and the other 2 healers are weakened still. One tried to help but got hit with that AoE and is now double-weakened and can't cast any heals. Tanks are losing threat. OH ONE WENT DOWN! **** we're all dead.
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#45 Feb 13 2011 at 12:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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129 posts
I know most people don't consider the DoH/L classes when it comes to this debate, but what about them? There are some annoying locals that require you to go to some out of the way camps and most of those camps are surrounded by mobs that aggros. DoLs have to traverse the wilderness in search of the next node to gather from, and most of the time there's an aggroable mob or three just hanging around waiting on that unsuspecting gatherer to come wandering by. It may not be as big as a problem for DoW/Ms because they have the means to protect themselves but gatherers and crafters only have Eluder skills that fall under a ridiculously long cool down and the ability to....toss rocks.

So, I don't think an XP/SP loss is the solution. Sure for some people it might make them tighten their gameplay and work better strategies into their battling, but on the other hand I believe it'll end up limiting a lot of players into taking the "safe route" and that makes the game kind of boring IMO. As a previous poster stated, without a death penalty it's encouraged me to go explore and challenge a variety of mobs to see what is the best fight rather than just go with the mobs everyone else is fighting on. That, and I'd never ever pick up an Imp/Devilet leve and challenge it on anything higher than 2 stars ever again. ^_~

However implementing an alternative death penalty rather than an SP/XP loss won't really do anything in the long run. A greater hit to durability loss? People already hate the current system and I just can't see people accepting this if it gets implemented. Losing gil/crystal/items when you die? Gil and Crystals are easily gained and would hardly impact anything, and losing items, depending on what, would just annoy people. Lock skills for a certain time after death? Maybe, but it seems too like the current system with weakness, and it's not like people aren't just spamming one or two skills anyhow.
#46 Feb 13 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Default
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182 posts
MajidahSihaam wrote:
Demon's Souls. Won game of the year.

If you die you drop all the souls you have on you, all the mobs respawn and they become stronger. You have to start from the beginning of the area.
And if you were in body form the world tendency drops one point into black.

Game. of. the. @#%^ing. year.


So in order for FFXIV to win game of the year, we need to lose every item in our inventory when we die, all mobs we killed in an area when we died need to come back stronger causing problems for weaker characters, and start back at our main city when we die. Oh boy that's so much fun! Now the mobs respawning stronger is a good idea, but the rest is crap.
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#47 Feb 13 2011 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
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129 posts
TerraSonicX wrote:
So in order for FFXIV to win game of the year, we need to lose every item in our inventory when we die, all mobs we killed in an area when we died need to come back stronger causing problems for weaker characters, and start back at our main city when we die. Oh boy that's so much fun! Now the mobs respawning stronger is a good idea, but the rest is crap.


If the mob gives more SP as a result of getting stronger, wouldn't that be exploitable?
#48 Feb 13 2011 at 1:14 PM Rating: Good
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182 posts
SylOdinsdottir wrote:
TerraSonicX wrote:
So in order for FFXIV to win game of the year, we need to lose every item in our inventory when we die, all mobs we killed in an area when we died need to come back stronger causing problems for weaker characters, and start back at our main city when we die. Oh boy that's so much fun! Now the mobs respawning stronger is a good idea, but the rest is crap.


If the mob gives more SP as a result of getting stronger, wouldn't that be exploitable?


I know, that's why I said it's a good idea. ~_^ lol
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#49 Feb 13 2011 at 1:18 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
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139 posts
MajidahSihaam wrote:
Demon's Souls. Won game of the year.

If you die you drop all the souls you have on you, all the mobs respawn and they become stronger. You have to start from the beginning of the area.
And if you were in body form the world tendency drops one point into black.

Game. of. the. @#%^ing. year.


I can't understand the bolded line. I tried to read it several different ways, but I just can not understand it in any way, not even close to anything resembling understanding. I've been obsessing over it for several minutes. Someone please tell me what it means, it is destroying my brain :\ I'm sure I can't understand it because I am not familiar with the game, but it's killing me, I must know what it means.

Also I just wanted to say Bioshock was a great game. Well Bioshock 1 and 2 were both great. There wasn't any penalty for death at all. You either could reload your last save, or just respawn with no penalty in the tanks (forget what they were called). It also won a ton of awards including IGN's game of the year award and Guinness book of world records "Most Popular Xbox Live Demo".
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#50 Feb 13 2011 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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129 posts
TerraSonicX wrote:
SylOdinsdottir wrote:
TerraSonicX wrote:
So in order for FFXIV to win game of the year, we need to lose every item in our inventory when we die, all mobs we killed in an area when we died need to come back stronger causing problems for weaker characters, and start back at our main city when we die. Oh boy that's so much fun! Now the mobs respawning stronger is a good idea, but the rest is crap.


If the mob gives more SP as a result of getting stronger, wouldn't that be exploitable?


I know, that's why I said it's a good idea. ~_^ lol


Ah good point~ In that case I recommend this gets implemented. ...I wonder if I can sucker some lowbies into dying multiple times....
#51 Feb 13 2011 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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568 posts
TerraSonicX wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:
Demon's Souls. Won game of the year.

If you die you drop all the souls you have on you, all the mobs respawn and they become stronger. You have to start from the beginning of the area.
And if you were in body form the world tendency drops one point into black.

Game. of. the. @#%^ing. year.


So in order for FFXIV to win game of the year, we need to lose every item in our inventory when we die, all mobs we killed in an area when we died need to come back stronger causing problems for weaker characters, and start back at our main city when we die. Oh boy that's so much fun! Now the mobs respawning stronger is a good idea, but the rest is crap.


You don't lose any items in DS by dying. DS is an extreme example but as such it at least illustrates how you can make players care about the world you're in.
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