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No penalties upon death.Follow

#52 Feb 13 2011 at 1:47 PM Rating: Default
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602 posts
Rekia wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:
Demon's Souls. Won game of the year.

If you die you drop all the souls you have on you, all the mobs respawn and they become stronger. You have to start from the beginning of the area.
And if you were in body form the world tendency drops one point into black.

Game. of. the. @#%^ing. year.


I can't understand the bolded line. I tried to read it several different ways, but I just can not understand it in any way, not even close to anything resembling understanding. I've been obsessing over it for several minutes. Someone please tell me what it means, it is destroying my brain :\ I'm sure I can't understand it because I am not familiar with the game, but it's killing me, I must know what it means.

Quote:
Black World Tendency

Black World Tendency has the following effects.

Increases enemy HP, attack and defence power
Enemies hold more Souls
Enemies are more likely to drop rare items
The Black Phantoms versions of enemies and NPCs appear in specific locations
Black Phantom versions of normal monsters have a 100% drop rate for their primary items.
Primeval Demons appear in specific locations in each world. Note that Primeval Demons will appear slightly before a world is Pure Black, so this is not a good way to judge if you have achieved Pure Black World Tendency. This demon will still be there when the world is Pure Black.
Your character's maximum HP in Soul Form is reduced.



TerraSonicX wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:
Demon's Souls. Won game of the year.

If you die you drop all the souls you have on you, all the mobs respawn and they become stronger. You have to start from the beginning of the area.
And if you were in body form the world tendency drops one point into black.

Game. of. the. @#%^ing. year.


So in order for FFXIV to win game of the year, we need to lose every item in our inventory when we die, all mobs we killed in an area when we died need to come back stronger causing problems for weaker characters, and start back at our main city when we die. Oh boy that's so much fun! Now the mobs respawning stronger is a good idea, but the rest is crap.


I never said XIV should copy and paste demon's souls, but I'm giving out a perfect example of how demon's souls (being the most immersive game I can think of) does with punishments for dying and still manages to sell well. As long as the game is fun people aren't going to quit because its challenging.

Oh and souls = currency. You lose all the currency you've picked up in the dungeon, not your items. Just to clarify.

edit:
****, seiferdincht beat me to it. see? he gets what I meant. :P

Edited, Feb 13th 2011 2:49pm by MajidahSihaam
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#53 Feb 13 2011 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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182 posts
seiferdincht wrote:

You don't lose any items in DS by dying. DS is an extreme example but as such it at least illustrates how you can make players care about the world you're in.


Well I didn't know, I've never played DS, I just assumed souls were similar to items. Anyway, I care about Eorzea right now. Having a stronger death penalty wouldn't make the game more enjoyable for me. I would much rather have tougher content, something I have to try over and over again. That way when I finally completed it, I would feel accomplished. Death should inconvenience the player but in a minor way and I think weakness does its job.

Edited, Feb 13th 2011 2:57pm by TerraSonicX

Edited, Feb 13th 2011 3:04pm by TerraSonicX
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#54 Feb 13 2011 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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Ah I see, so it's like a meter that drops one point into something (black). I think I get it now. Thanks for explaining it. It was trying to destroy me.
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#55 Feb 13 2011 at 11:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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3,530 posts
Zanist wrote:
I have yet to feel any strong emotion, such as this from this game.


This; this completely. The greatest "rush" I've ever had in FFXIV was when I heaved a sigh and said, laconically of course, "I face death and, having submitted to it, now risk finishing the ☆☆☆ leve in only 10 minutes instead of only 7." Later, after I death-warped back to camp, I trudged through a zone ten times my level without any fear whatsoever; should I get one-shotted by a giant monster, there is no reason to run; should something attack me, there is no reason to fight for my life.
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#56 Feb 14 2011 at 12:18 AM Rating: Good
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213 posts
Of course I think there should be some kind of sp penalty.

someone should make a pole about people's thought on it. I'm curious to know what % of people like easy mode. Just 2 choices though, yes or no.
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#57 Feb 14 2011 at 3:59 AM Rating: Good
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568 posts
BadJoRed wrote:
Of course I think there should be some kind of sp penalty.

someone should make a pole about people's thought on it. I'm curious to know what % of people like easy mode. Just 2 choices though, yes or no.


This is a bad idea to take a poll on. Most players have no clue how it affects the game design and immersion and just opt for whatever sounds nicer on paper. More, free, easy, and forgiving are words that sound nice but tend to translate to boring, unrewarding, non-engaging experience in-game in the long run.

There's one thing a game coder once said to me that I'll always remember:

"If you were promised to have a cookie at the end of the work day would it taste sweeter than a cookie in a scenario where every person you pass by on the street offers you free cookies?"

Better yet would you feel as motivated to work in a world like that?

The main thing you're supposed to be doing in a game is to work not to stand there while receiving rewards from left and right for no particular reason.
#58 Feb 14 2011 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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**** penalties. If you want to make this idea fly at all, you have to put a positive spin on it. Instead of applying a debt or some other penalty, you give everyone a buff that gives bonus exp/sp/regen/refresh if they're doing well, maybe have it stack to 10 (offering 1% per stack). Once they die, they lose all their stacks (or maybe just some of them), and have to hit specific exp targets (based on current level(s)) to regain stacks.

In doing it this way, death suddenly becomes a big deal because it slows you down compared to someone with a full 10-stack, but it doesn't take any of your progress away at the same time.
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Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#59 Feb 14 2011 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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139 posts
Quanta wrote:
@#%^ penalties. If you want to make this idea fly at all, you have to put a positive spin on it. Instead of applying a debt or some other penalty, you give everyone a buff that gives bonus exp/sp/regen/refresh if they're doing well, maybe have it stack to 10 (offering 1% per stack). Once they die, they lose all their stacks (or maybe just some of them), and have to hit specific exp targets (based on current level(s)) to regain stacks.

In doing it this way, death suddenly becomes a big deal because it slows you down compared to someone with a full 10-stack, but it doesn't take any of your progress away at the same time.


Actually that's a good idea. I believe that's what Champions Online does, you can have up to 4 stars as a bonus and each time you die, you lose a star. You gain them back over time through getting exp or paying an NPC to restore them. But it's still a penalty. Eventually it would become a standard to always have the max bonus and you'll just feel really bad when you lose it.

I don't really like things being taken away from me because of dying in a video game. Sometimes you can't help that you died, sometimes you get stuck and have to die, or an invisible mob kills you, or something was just way harder than you thought it would be. It's not fun losing a bunch of time because of a simple mistake.

Edited, Feb 14th 2011 2:58pm by Rekia
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#60 Feb 14 2011 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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213 posts
Good players want SOME kind of penalty. FACT!

Nubs that die a lot and grew up always being told they were a "winner," hate penalties for death in games. "NO, I don't like to lose anyhing, it's too hard." It's such a shame that this generation of whiners has come of age, and are voicing their opinions in record numbers enough to make a game complany change to please them.


lol,just joking, I only posted that to make people rage. pls don't attack meeeee, it was a joke!!!

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#61 Feb 14 2011 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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63 posts
I'm content with no penalty right now and the only penalty I'd ever be okay with is a gear damage. There was nothing more infuriating in FFXI than losing 10% of your level for trying to kill a mob that gave 25exp. One of the many reasons I quit playing that game.
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#62 Feb 14 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
1 post
Having a penalty is fine but people who play well should do so for the sake of playing well. Does being a good player and member of your party not hold any importance anymore? People who only play well to escape the death penalty and just to get by worry me.

Sure there's no penalty for dying but you should still avoid it.
#63 Feb 14 2011 at 1:08 PM Rating: Good
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Arcell wrote:
Does being a good player and member of your party not hold any importance anymore?


It was never important. If you tried to make it seem important, you usually got called out as being elitist, at which point your party members would giggle and throw their level 30 selves at the Sea Horror like some kind of blood sacrifice.
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#64 Feb 14 2011 at 1:17 PM Rating: Default
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602 posts
Quanta wrote:
@#%^ penalties. If you want to make this idea fly at all, you have to put a positive spin on it. Instead of applying a debt or some other penalty, you give everyone a buff that gives bonus exp/sp/regen/refresh if they're doing well, maybe have it stack to 10 (offering 1% per stack). Once they die, they lose all their stacks (or maybe just some of them), and have to hit specific exp targets (based on current level(s)) to regain stacks.

In doing it this way, death suddenly becomes a big deal because it slows you down compared to someone with a full 10-stack, but it doesn't take any of your progress away at the same time.


This is a good idea, but at the same time not really. For this to work then normal SP should be horrible.
Currently the normal SP is pretty good, so people wouldn't be scared of dying. They might be slightly annoyed at most. But nothing to really worry about.
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FFXIV: Majidah Sihaam. (Besaid)
Marauder, Weaver & Alchemist.

#65 Feb 14 2011 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
This is a good idea, but at the same time not really. For this to work then normal SP should be horrible.
Currently the normal SP is pretty good, so people wouldn't be scared of dying. They might be slightly annoyed at most. But nothing to really worry about.


Nah, you don't have to nerf SP...you just increase the amount needed to level. ;P
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#66 Feb 14 2011 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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222 posts
Guild wars had a cool DP and morale system. if you died you got -%15 dp it affected Health and mp, die again you got another -%15. In GW you had to kill boss or kill reg mobs for %1 increase. it also worked positively, if you killed a boss you got a morale boost which boosted health and mp.
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#67 Feb 14 2011 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
4 posts
I don't like death penalties when they take away your exp or have to repaire your armor due to dieing, walking back to your dead body is enough puishment for me.
#68 Feb 14 2011 at 2:16 PM Rating: Excellent
36 posts
Judging from the loud voices raised against EXP loss I would assume quite a few of you do not come from a FFXI background. I actually liked the EXP loss death penalty in FFXI. As many have said, it kept you on edge.

It's boring to not have to "fear" death. I mean, an MMO is much like any video game with infinite continues. The home points, much like checkpoints. Sure, it might be boring to run for 5 or 10 minutes after a death, but that is not "punishment" enough imo. And I will explain why i believe so.

When playing any game with infinite continues and no punishment the tendency is that you mechanically replay over and over from the checkpoints, (or savepoints) without really bothering to think twice before charging head on back in to whatever it was that killed you, unless you were killed so severely that you realize that you'd HAVE to wait a couple of levels before trying again. Little time is put on reflection and learning from your mistakes. With a zero death penalty system there is a risk that a lot of time goes to waste trying to brute force through an obstacle, rather than actually figure out what went wrong, and how to go about sorting it out. (I bet i will get flak for this statement... :P)

If we on the other hand take a game such as Demon Souls, where the death penalty is truly something to fear, and checkpoints are rare, the gaming experience is like a roller coaster of panic, joy, fear, and accomplishment. There is a sense of urgency through out the whole experience, and you will think twice before charging anything head on "just to see what happens". In my opinion, a death penalty worth not wanting is something that brings players closer together. Both tactically and sympathetically. If you don't play your role properly, your allies will most likely also suffer the lasting consequence of your mistake.

There is really no incitement other than politeness to complement someone on a job well done when there's really no looming threat of lasting loss. The [Good Job] you get from "Saving someones life" by a last second cure, ace stun, or well timed voke means little more than "at leasat we don't have to start over". Where as in FFXI for instance, it meant that, PLUS a genuine thank you for saving the party members unwanted exp grind. I strongly believe that there is need for a death penalty other than a couple of minutes of weakness and a bit of running. And i would rather see it on the EXP side than on the gear, since I strongly disagree to death costing extra money in repairs.

TLDR: Fearing the death penalty will bring players closer together, and give a bigger sense of urgency, accomplishment, and genuine "thank yous". Therefore, I believe this game needs something more fearful than a bit of walking and 3 minutes of weakness.


#69 Feb 14 2011 at 2:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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441 posts
Here is a simple easily implemented solution.

Make it so you don't get SP or EXP while KO'd!!!! I mean, if you are dead laying on the ground, it is kinda stupid to be able to get SP and EXP. maybe by not getting those benefits, people will be a little more careful on leves/behest.
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#70 Feb 14 2011 at 2:36 PM Rating: Default
44 posts
I could just punch you in the balls every time you die. It would really add to the immersion ya know?

It's an archaic mechanism. If you want some sort of penalty why not have some real immersion and have a corpse left on the ground that can be looted by any player or even monsters?

Death penalties don't make you "think" about fighting they inhibit the challenges people will take on for fear of losing ****. I'm not going to attempt anything that will send me backwards in EXP and don't delude yourself thinking that I'm alone in my feeling on that.

The best proposal was posted by someone on here about having a bonus that you lose for dying rather than sending you backwards in progression.


Get out of the 1990's.
#71 Feb 14 2011 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
36 posts
Seikninkuru wrote:
I could just punch you in the balls every time you die. It would really add to the immersion ya know?

It's an archaic mechanism. If you want some sort of penalty why not have some real immersion and have a corpse left on the ground that can be looted by any player or even monsters?

Death penalties don't make you "think" about fighting they inhibit the challenges people will take on for fear of losing sh*t. I'm not going to attempt anything that will send me backwards in EXP and don't delude yourself thinking that I'm alone in my feeling on that.

The best proposal was posted by someone on here about having a bonus that you lose for dying rather than sending you backwards in progression.


Get out of the 1990's.



...I honestly don't think video games are a good choice for you at all, and I suggest you stop playing them all together...
#72 Feb 14 2011 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
13 posts
I prefer no sp/xp loss on death. How much time in xi was wasted by people wanting r3 only in dynamis? Some people would abandon their group and run away because they didn't want the xp loss rather than stay and maybe finish the fight. How many people lost a ton of xp helping ls mates get thru their missions? I think having a minimal death penalty actually helps people to work together better.
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#73 Feb 14 2011 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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602 posts
Caleberiel wrote:
Judging from the loud voices raised against EXP loss I would assume quite a few of you do not come from a FFXI background. I actually liked the EXP loss death penalty in FFXI. As many have said, it kept you on edge.

It's boring to not have to "fear" death. I mean, an MMO is much like any video game with infinite continues. The home points, much like checkpoints. Sure, it might be boring to run for 5 or 10 minutes after a death, but that is not "punishment" enough imo. And I will explain why i believe so.

When playing any game with infinite continues and no punishment the tendency is that you mechanically replay over and over from the checkpoints, (or savepoints) without really bothering to think twice before charging head on back in to whatever it was that killed you, unless you were killed so severely that you realize that you'd HAVE to wait a couple of levels before trying again. Little time is put on reflection and learning from your mistakes. With a zero death penalty system there is a risk that a lot of time goes to waste trying to brute force through an obstacle, rather than actually figure out what went wrong, and how to go about sorting it out. (I bet i will get flak for this statement... :P)

If we on the other hand take a game such as Demon Souls, where the death penalty is truly something to fear, and checkpoints are rare, the gaming experience is like a roller coaster of panic, joy, fear, and accomplishment. There is a sense of urgency through out the whole experience, and you will think twice before charging anything head on "just to see what happens". In my opinion, a death penalty worth not wanting is something that brings players closer together. Both tactically and sympathetically. If you don't play your role properly, your allies will most likely also suffer the lasting consequence of your mistake.

There is really no incitement other than politeness to complement someone on a job well done when there's really no looming threat of lasting loss. The [Good Job] you get from "Saving someones life" by a last second cure, ace stun, or well timed voke means little more than "at leasat we don't have to start over". Where as in FFXI for instance, it meant that, PLUS a genuine thank you for saving the party members unwanted exp grind. I strongly believe that there is need for a death penalty other than a couple of minutes of weakness and a bit of running. And i would rather see it on the EXP side than on the gear, since I strongly disagree to death costing extra money in repairs.

TLDR: Fearing the death penalty will bring players closer together, and give a bigger sense of urgency, accomplishment, and genuine "thank yous". Therefore, I believe this game needs something more fearful than a bit of walking and 3 minutes of weakness.




This. A million times this.
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Marauder, Weaver & Alchemist.

#74 Feb 14 2011 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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236 posts
Caleberiel wrote:
Judging from the loud voices raised against EXP loss I would assume quite a few of you do not come from a FFXI background. I actually liked the EXP loss death penalty in FFXI. As many have said, it kept you on edge.

It's boring to not have to "fear" death. I mean, an MMO is much like any video game with infinite continues. The home points, much like checkpoints. Sure, it might be boring to run for 5 or 10 minutes after a death, but that is not "punishment" enough imo. And I will explain why i believe so.

When playing any game with infinite continues and no punishment the tendency is that you mechanically replay over and over from the checkpoints, (or savepoints) without really bothering to think twice before charging head on back in to whatever it was that killed you, unless you were killed so severely that you realize that you'd HAVE to wait a couple of levels before trying again. Little time is put on reflection and learning from your mistakes. With a zero death penalty system there is a risk that a lot of time goes to waste trying to brute force through an obstacle, rather than actually figure out what went wrong, and how to go about sorting it out. (I bet i will get flak for this statement... :P)

If we on the other hand take a game such as Demon Souls, where the death penalty is truly something to fear, and checkpoints are rare, the gaming experience is like a roller coaster of panic, joy, fear, and accomplishment. There is a sense of urgency through out the whole experience, and you will think twice before charging anything head on "just to see what happens". In my opinion, a death penalty worth not wanting is something that brings players closer together. Both tactically and sympathetically. If you don't play your role properly, your allies will most likely also suffer the lasting consequence of your mistake.

There is really no incitement other than politeness to complement someone on a job well done when there's really no looming threat of lasting loss. The [Good Job] you get from "Saving someones life" by a last second cure, ace stun, or well timed voke means little more than "at leasat we don't have to start over". Where as in FFXI for instance, it meant that, PLUS a genuine thank you for saving the party members unwanted exp grind. I strongly believe that there is need for a death penalty other than a couple of minutes of weakness and a bit of running. And i would rather see it on the EXP side than on the gear, since I strongly disagree to death costing extra money in repairs.

TLDR: Fearing the death penalty will bring players closer together, and give a bigger sense of urgency, accomplishment, and genuine "thank yous". Therefore, I believe this game needs something more fearful than a bit of walking and 3 minutes of weakness.





Yes sir. I guess now that FFXI lets people leech EXP in Abyssea and level jobs to the cap in a matter of days people with more recent experience in that game expect everything to be easy. FFXI is only [easy mode] now because it was a hard game for 5+ years. If you came from an FFXI background and were around in the first ~5 years if that game you'd remember the genuine "Thanks for a great party guys!" that came after you found a group that found a groove and raked in EXP and how good it felt to never die in a party or know that if one of you did on one odd mob, the group you were with was dedicated and capable of getting your EXP right back. When you have nothing to lose it's hard to be appreciative of the people you play with that help you gain.
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#75 Feb 14 2011 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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213 posts
Caleberiel wrote:
Judging from the loud voices raised against EXP loss I would assume quite a few of you do not come from a FFXI background. I actually liked the EXP loss death penalty in FFXI. As many have said, it kept you on edge.

It's boring to not have to "fear" death. I mean, an MMO is much like any video game with infinite continues. The home points, much like checkpoints. Sure, it might be boring to run for 5 or 10 minutes after a death, but that is not "punishment" enough imo. And I will explain why i believe so.

When playing any game with infinite continues and no punishment the tendency is that you mechanically replay over and over from the checkpoints, (or savepoints) without really bothering to think twice before charging head on back in to whatever it was that killed you, unless you were killed so severely that you realize that you'd HAVE to wait a couple of levels before trying again. Little time is put on reflection and learning from your mistakes. With a zero death penalty system there is a risk that a lot of time goes to waste trying to brute force through an obstacle, rather than actually figure out what went wrong, and how to go about sorting it out. (I bet i will get flak for this statement... :P)

If we on the other hand take a game such as Demon Souls, where the death penalty is truly something to fear, and checkpoints are rare, the gaming experience is like a roller coaster of panic, joy, fear, and accomplishment. There is a sense of urgency through out the whole experience, and you will think twice before charging anything head on "just to see what happens". In my opinion, a death penalty worth not wanting is something that brings players closer together. Both tactically and sympathetically. If you don't play your role properly, your allies will most likely also suffer the lasting consequence of your mistake.

There is really no incitement other than politeness to complement someone on a job well done when there's really no looming threat of lasting loss. The [Good Job] you get from "Saving someones life" by a last second cure, ace stun, or well timed voke means little more than "at leasat we don't have to start over". Where as in FFXI for instance, it meant that, PLUS a genuine thank you for saving the party members unwanted exp grind. I strongly believe that there is need for a death penalty other than a couple of minutes of weakness and a bit of running. And i would rather see it on the EXP side than on the gear, since I strongly disagree to death costing extra money in repairs.

TLDR: Fearing the death penalty will bring players closer together, and give a bigger sense of urgency, accomplishment, and genuine "thank yous". Therefore, I believe this game needs something more fearful than a bit of walking and 3 minutes of weakness.




Nice explanation, rate up for attempting to educate people. (many still won't get it)
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#76 Feb 14 2011 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
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BadJoRed wrote:
Nice explanation, rate up for attempting to educate people. (many still won't get it)


You mean many people will still have a difference of opinion on what fun is. Variety is the spice of life and all that.
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#77 Feb 14 2011 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
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602 posts
Rekia wrote:
BadJoRed wrote:
Nice explanation, rate up for attempting to educate people. (many still won't get it)


You mean many people will still have a difference of opinion on what fun is. Variety is the spice of life and all that.


Please keep that "kind of fun" to little big planet and not mmorpgs with heavy character development and emotional bonding.

Currently my character is more suicidal than a sackboy.

Yesterday I did r34 storyline. I had to get to mordhona. In the way there were a bunch of red mobs. At the beginning of the way an aetheryte node. What did I do? First I hoped to outrun them. Died to their ranged skill. I repeated this. The mobs were each time further away and closer to the exit. Eventually I had kited them so far away I just took a left turn into the now cleared goal line.

I had a sh*tload of weakness on me and I didn't care. Just kept dying and dying.
Wheres the skill in there? The sense of accomplishment? The fun? I think I'm missing the point of this "fun".

Edited, Feb 14th 2011 7:39pm by MajidahSihaam
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Marauder, Weaver & Alchemist.

#78 Feb 14 2011 at 6:48 PM Rating: Decent
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
Please keep that "kind of fun" to little big planet and not mmorpgs with heavy character development and emotional bonding.

Currently my character is more suicidal than a sackboy.

Yesterday I did r34 storyline. I had to get to mordhona. In the way there were a bunch of red mobs. At the beginning of the way an aetheryte node. What did I do? First I hoped to outrun them. Died to their ranged skill. I repeated this. The mobs were each time further away and closer to the exit. Eventually I had kited them so far away I just took a left turn into the now cleared goal line.

I had a sh*tload of weakness on me and I didn't care. Just kept dying and dying.
Wheres the skill in there? The sense of accomplishment? The fun? I think I'm missing the point of this "fun".

Edited, Feb 14th 2011 7:39pm by MajidahSihaam


Bad design on SE's part. In WoW, those mobs would have rubber-banded back into place after you died, ensuring that you couldn't just death-kite them away from the path. Combined with the fact that you can't corpse-res in FFXIV, and you'd actually have had to think about how to get by them without dying.

Also, that word cropped up again. "Accomplishment".
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#79 Feb 14 2011 at 6:51 PM Rating: Good
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182 posts
MajidahSihaam wrote:

Wheres the skill in there? The sense of accomplishment? The fun? I think I'm missing the point of this "fun".

Edited, Feb 14th 2011 7:39pm by MajidahSihaam


Well you could say your skill came from kiting them. Also imagine if this game had an SP/EXP death penalty and I was in your situation, I wouldn't have found it fun losing SP/EXP over and over trying to get to that node.
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#80 Feb 14 2011 at 7:04 PM Rating: Decent
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TerraSonicX wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:

Wheres the skill in there? The sense of accomplishment? The fun? I think I'm missing the point of this "fun".

Edited, Feb 14th 2011 7:39pm by MajidahSihaam


Well you could say your skill came from kiting them. Also imagine if this game had an SP/EXP death penalty and I was in your situation, I wouldn't have found it fun losing SP/EXP over and over trying to get to that node.


Way to miss the entire point of the anecdote. If there was a death penalty, he would have attempted/found a more skillful way of avoiding the mobs and getting to his destination; he didn't CARE to avoid them because death is meaningless in FFXIV.
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#81 Feb 14 2011 at 7:11 PM Rating: Good
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MCraine wrote:


Way to miss the entire point of the anecdote. If there was a death penalty, he would have attempted/found a more skillful way of avoiding the mobs and getting to his destination; he didn't CARE to avoid them because death is meaningless in FFXIV.


It doesn't matter, because with the current system I would have attempted/found a more skillful way of avoiding because I wouldn't want to waste my time running back to the same area over and over.
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#82 Feb 14 2011 at 7:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Rekia wrote:
BadJoRed wrote:
Nice explanation, rate up for attempting to educate people. (many still won't get it)


You mean many people will still have a difference of opinion on what fun is. Variety is the spice of life and all that.


this is all in response to what Caleberiel wrote btw

well... short of mudslinging, I'm just saying that most people will make their decision regarding the issue immediately after reading the topic of the post. 99.9% of people in opposition to an Sp penalty refuse to actually read and believe what other people have written here while also having never experienced any of it either, simply sticking with "It's a time sink" "It's a waste of time." His post is very accurate. Simply saying "no, it doesn't help achieve any of those things, it's pointless" is wrong. Just because someone doesn't want to waste any of their precious time recovering lost SP while trying to justify it by making claims of it being a time sink and pointless, certainly does not make them correct. I would even go as far as to say this argument isn't much of a matter of opinion VS opinion, it is an argument of logic, reason and truth VS people who simply refuse to believe facts about game play.

If we could also toggle a switch on and off that would give us full time invincibility during the game, people would also argue about that, saying there is nothing wrong with it, because dying is a time sink and they should not have to waste their time doing something over. However, the logical people will clearly see there is something wrong with this, and will know 100%, they are correct. Right?

but again, I'm just another opinion here according to the 'most' people, and I'm wrong too.

Now, for the record, I have no problem with people saying "No, I don't want any penalty for dying because I don't want to have to have to get the SP back." This is in fact, a difference of opinion.

I have a problem with people attempting to reinforce this opinion by saying silly things like it does not change the dynamics of the game, when it clearly does.

Edited, Feb 14th 2011 8:18pm by BadJoRed
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#83 Feb 14 2011 at 7:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think most of us who are against an SP penalty upon death aren't arguing that it doesn't change the dynamic of the game. We are saying that in our opinion, it does not make the game more fun, just more frustrating. It is not fun to get that SP back, it's a time sink for no reason. Having failed and having to walk back are enough punishment for us (once again, in our opinion).

To me it's a game, it is something I do when I am not at work. I do not want another job. I look back at some of my EQ moments and think how stressed I would get over some of the things (like dying a bunch), and I don't want that. I want to unwind from my stressful job and have fun. Most MMOs have done away with the harsh death penalty now days anyway.
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#84 Feb 14 2011 at 7:43 PM Rating: Good
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Rekia wrote:
It is not fun to get that SP back, it's a time sink for no reason designed to maximize playtime and keep you subscribed longer, similar to how arcade games were brutally hard to keep you feeding quarters into the machine.


FTFY.
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Don't play that game anymore. :P
#85 Feb 14 2011 at 7:48 PM Rating: Good
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Rekia wrote:
I think most of us who are against an SP penalty upon death aren't arguing that it doesn't change the dynamic of the game. We are saying that in our opinion, it does not make the game more fun, just more frustrating. It is not fun to get that SP back, it's a time sink for no reason. Having failed and having to walk back are enough punishment for us (once again, in our opinion).

To me it's a game, it is something I do when I am not at work. I do not want another job. I look back at some of my EQ moments and think how stressed I would get over some of the things (like dying a bunch), and I don't want that. I want to unwind from my stressful job and have fun. Most MMOs have done away with the harsh death penalty now days anyway.


Quanta wrote:
Rekia wrote:
It is not fun to get that SP back, it's a time sink for no reason designed to maximize playtime and keep you subscribed longer, similar to how arcade games were brutally hard to keep you feeding quarters into the machine.


FTFY.



...there be a **** storm a-brewin'...
#86 Feb 14 2011 at 10:11 PM Rating: Good
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I am now confused as to how often people who are against the death penalty die. They way they are preeching it makes me think I'm talking with characters from the game lemmings.

And honestly? With leve linking and all getting 1-3k SP can be as easy as killing 3 mobs.

Edited, Feb 14th 2011 11:16pm by MajidahSihaam
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#87 Feb 14 2011 at 11:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lack of death penalty is far and away from the most pressing problem with XIV. Lack of challenge, skill requirement, etc. are far more glaring omissions.

My feeling about death penalties is that they are artificial difficulty/excitement. They're not always bad but they seldom add anything of merit to the game-- best case scenario they don't detract from the game experience.

The best games I've played were challenging, but even when you died, the penalty was very small-- often no more than the fact that you lost and had to start over from the beginning. I haven't played Demon Souls yet, but my understanding is that this is why the game is good-- it's good in spite of its death penalty, not because of it. In fact, the death penalty is consistently one of the biggest complaints I read about the game.

Just in terms of strict psychology, there is no basis for enjoying a game more for being penalized upon failure.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#88 Feb 15 2011 at 2:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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lol, with a death penalty, someone at R50 would level down every time they die :)
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#89 Feb 15 2011 at 4:14 AM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
When players die, they should take gear damage imo.

I agree with this.
While I wouldn't mind a small SP penalty I'm sure most people won't like it.

I think we all agree that there should be some kind of penalty, besides weakness, to encourage the players will to survive.
How about losing, let's say, 10% gear duability or 5% of the current ranks max SP (no rank-down possible)?
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#90 Feb 15 2011 at 5:15 AM Rating: Good
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
I am now confused as to how often people who are against the death penalty die. They way they are preeching it makes me think I'm talking with characters from the game lemmings.


You say this after an anecdotal strawman in which you repeatedly kill yourself in order to clear a path through hostile mobs. Who's the lemming again? I forgot.
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Don't play that game anymore. :P
#91 Feb 15 2011 at 8:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Quanta wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:
I am now confused as to how often people who are against the death penalty die. They way they are preeching it makes me think I'm talking with characters from the game lemmings.


You say this after an anecdotal strawman in which you repeatedly kill yourself in order to clear a path through hostile mobs. Who's the lemming again? I forgot.


You can't be that dense buddy. I did that purposely because there is no penalty. Would have I done it if there was one? Obviously not.

Unless you support this kind of gameplay and the reason you are against a death penalty is because you don't want this option gone?

Edited, Feb 15th 2011 9:36am by MajidahSihaam
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#92 Feb 15 2011 at 8:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Its a game where killing things, and not dying, are 2 of the primary goals, and thats plenty for me. Having to run back, wait out weakness, rebuff etc is more than enough incentive for me to not throw waves and waves of my characters at stuff.

I feel that death penalties make most players far too conservative. They often out level stuff rather than attempt it at a challenging level. Sounds like you're the opposite, and you're just doing whatever since there are no significant consequences to you, but I really don't know how to help you. If that is what it would take for you to take the games content seriously, I would suggest maybe you are getting bored with it, or simply not finding it all that fun to begin with.

I'm always against death penalties because they add zero challenge to the action that killed you to begin with. They're the worst kind of deterrent, the one that makes you not even try.
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#93 Feb 15 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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LordBalrog wrote:
Truth is you'll never find a middle ground for both sides.


Yep, it's an issue and raising it won't lead anywhere, unless SQEnix finds that it's a bit skewed to either side.

There is also a conflict between some of the hardcore players that play FFXIV and the casual players that SQEnix wants to attract to be profitable.
MajidahSihaam wrote:
Demon Souls. Won game of the year.
Ya but I wonder if it made the most sales/profit?

Initially, like with the early release of FFXIV I think they were more concerned about their wallets, now they realize they need to listen to us. So how about we ask for an official poll? How much death penalty do we want on average?

Maybe FFXIV can become multi-tiered? Higher risk monsters with better drops could have higher death penalties? I too find a game without death penalties pointless to play. Nostalgia of getting 3 links in FFXI and somehow surviving with 2h's used and mages taking turns resting mid-fight made me sweat and love FFXI as much as I did.

I wonder if SQEnix will ever be able to satisfy both camps, we are two different groups of players in the same world.




Edited, Feb 15th 2011 3:07pm by SyniteonReflux
#94 Feb 15 2011 at 2:27 PM Rating: Default
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SyniteonReflux wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:
Demon Souls. Won game of the year.
Ya but I wonder if it made the most sales/profit?

Initially, like with the early release of FFXIV I think they were more concerned about their wallets, now they realize they need to listen to us. So how about we ask for an official poll? How much death penalty do we want on average?




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon's_Souls#Reception

"selling over 500,000 by September 2010"
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#95 Feb 15 2011 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
SyniteonReflux wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:
Demon Souls. Won game of the year.
Ya but I wonder if it made the most sales/profit?

Initially, like with the early release of FFXIV I think they were more concerned about their wallets, now they realize they need to listen to us. So how about we ask for an official poll? How much death penalty do we want on average?




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon's_Souls#Reception

"selling over 500,000 by September 2010"


What about FFXIII? It had no death penalty. You could just retry if you failed.

Quote:
As of May 2010, the game sold 5.5 million copies worldwide.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_XIII
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#96 Feb 15 2011 at 4:23 PM Rating: Default
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Rekia wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:
SyniteonReflux wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:
Demon Souls. Won game of the year.
Ya but I wonder if it made the most sales/profit?

Initially, like with the early release of FFXIV I think they were more concerned about their wallets, now they realize they need to listen to us. So how about we ask for an official poll? How much death penalty do we want on average?




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon's_Souls#Reception

"selling over 500,000 by September 2010"


What about FFXIII? It had no death penalty. You could just retry if you failed.

Quote:
As of May 2010, the game sold 5.5 million copies worldwide.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_XIII


Not to derail this any further but FFXIII's development took 5 years, was a another name to the long standing final fantasy series and costed tens of millions (so much that SE didn't make back its production costs on the day of release); while demon's souls took less than 2 years to develop and release, was a low budget game (atlus admited they only expected to sell among the thousands), and a standalone title.

Hoenstly, FFXIII got sold even before releasing. FF brand + HQ graphics.
I don't think I liked the game that much, stopped playing after entering grand pulse or whatever.

Demon's Souls? I have over 100 hours put into my character there.

Anyway, XIII doesn't even near the same immersion level of DS. And its hardly the same type of game as DS.
XIII was clearly about plot progression (you just wander a hallway waiting for cutscenes) and not challenge or gameplay.

This is all my opinion of course.

Edited, Feb 15th 2011 5:28pm by MajidahSihaam
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#97 Feb 15 2011 at 4:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
Not to derail this any further but FFXIII's development took 5 years, was a another name to the long standing final fantasy series and costed tens of millions (so much that SE didn't make back its production costs on the day of release); while demon's souls took less than 2 years to develop and release, was a low budget game (atlus admited they only expected to sell among the thousands), and a standalone title.

Hoenstly, FFXIII got sold even before releasing. FF brand + HQ graphics.
I don't think I liked the game that much, stopped playing after entering grand pulse or whatever.

Demon's Souls? I have over 100 hours put into my character there.

Anyway, XIII doesn't even near the same immersion level of DS. And its hardly the same type of game as DS.
XIII was clearly about plot progression (you just wander a hallway waiting for cutscenes) and not challenge or gameplay.

This is all my opinion of course.

Edited, Feb 15th 2011 5:28pm by MajidahSihaam


Yeah I should have known better than to bring up FFXIII (it had very mixed reviews). I was just trying to find a game that I have personally played and was in the same time period as Demon Souls. There's always my previous example of Bioshock.

Quote:
The Xbox 360 version was the third best-selling game of August 2007, with 490,900 copies.[125] The Wall Street Journal reported that shares in Take-Two "soared nearly 20%" in the week following overwhelmingly favorable early reviews of the game.[126] Take-Two announced that, as of June 5, 2008, over 2.2 million copies of BioShock had been shipped.[127] In a June 10, 2008 interview, Roy Taylor, Nvidia's VP of Content Business Development, stated that the PC version has sold over one million copies.[128] According to Take-Two's chairman Strauss Zelnick, the game had sold around 3 million copies as of June 2009.[129] By March 2010, BioShock has sold 4 million copies.[130]


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioShock

It looks like it did just as well as Demon's Souls at first and continued to get more and more sales. I think it's like a previous poster had mentioned that Demon's Souls did well despite it's terrible death penalty, not because of it. A game with a severe death penalty and a game with pretty much no death penalty (besides walking back and trying again) seem to have done just as well in sales and reviews.

I just think there are more people who will quit a game over an overly punishing death penalty than there are people who will quit over there not being enough of a death penalty. Factors like gameplay, storyline, quests, combat, and even graphics are more important than "Dying isn't enough of a punishment". To some people getting punished isn't fun.

I think it's hard for MMO developers because they need to balance the difficulty of their game for all levels of player types. But adding an over all punishment for dying in a game is not fair to everyone and more importantly, it's not fun to everyone.

I like a challenge in a game, but I like the challenge to be in the form of hard boss battles, puzzles, things of that nature. I do not like losing hours of work because I died trying to complete a challenge.
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#98 Feb 15 2011 at 6:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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TerraSonicX wrote:
MCraine wrote:


Way to miss the entire point of the anecdote. If there was a death penalty, he would have attempted/found a more skillful way of avoiding the mobs and getting to his destination; he didn't CARE to avoid them because death is meaningless in FFXIV.


It doesn't matter, because with the current system I would have attempted/found a more skillful way of avoiding because I wouldn't want to waste my time running back to the same area over and over.


Yeah, I simply don't understand people who think you need a crazy harsh death penalty to have an incentive to play well. When I go adventuring, I always try my best not to die. I don't need to lose SP to not want to spend my whole night attempting the same run. I feel no less accomplishment when I make it to hard to reach aetherial gates than I would if I lost tons of SP doing it.

All more of a death penalty would do would make me less likely to explore. No thanks.
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#99 Feb 15 2011 at 7:02 PM Rating: Default
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Rekia wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:
Not to derail this any further but FFXIII's development took 5 years, was a another name to the long standing final fantasy series and costed tens of millions (so much that SE didn't make back its production costs on the day of release); while demon's souls took less than 2 years to develop and release, was a low budget game (atlus admited they only expected to sell among the thousands), and a standalone title.

Hoenstly, FFXIII got sold even before releasing. FF brand + HQ graphics.
I don't think I liked the game that much, stopped playing after entering grand pulse or whatever.

Demon's Souls? I have over 100 hours put into my character there.

Anyway, XIII doesn't even near the same immersion level of DS. And its hardly the same type of game as DS.
XIII was clearly about plot progression (you just wander a hallway waiting for cutscenes) and not challenge or gameplay.

This is all my opinion of course.

Edited, Feb 15th 2011 5:28pm by MajidahSihaam


Yeah I should have known better than to bring up FFXIII (it had very mixed reviews). I was just trying to find a game that I have personally played and was in the same time period as Demon Souls. There's always my previous example of Bioshock.

Quote:
The Xbox 360 version was the third best-selling game of August 2007, with 490,900 copies.[125] The Wall Street Journal reported that shares in Take-Two "soared nearly 20%" in the week following overwhelmingly favorable early reviews of the game.[126] Take-Two announced that, as of June 5, 2008, over 2.2 million copies of BioShock had been shipped.[127] In a June 10, 2008 interview, Roy Taylor, Nvidia's VP of Content Business Development, stated that the PC version has sold over one million copies.[128] According to Take-Two's chairman Strauss Zelnick, the game had sold around 3 million copies as of June 2009.[129] By March 2010, BioShock has sold 4 million copies.[130]


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioShock

It looks like it did just as well as Demon's Souls at first and continued to get more and more sales. I think it's like a previous poster had mentioned that Demon's Souls did well despite it's terrible death penalty, not because of it. A game with a severe death penalty and a game with pretty much no death penalty (besides walking back and trying again) seem to have done just as well in sales and reviews.

I just think there are more people who will quit a game over an overly punishing death penalty than there are people who will quit over there not being enough of a death penalty. Factors like gameplay, storyline, quests, combat, and even graphics are more important than "Dying isn't enough of a punishment". To some people getting punished isn't fun.

I think it's hard for MMO developers because they need to balance the difficulty of their game for all levels of player types. But adding an over all punishment for dying in a game is not fair to everyone and more importantly, it's not fun to everyone.

I like a challenge in a game, but I like the challenge to be in the form of hard boss battles, puzzles, things of that nature. I do not like losing hours of work because I died trying to complete a challenge.


I have only played bioshock's demo, and correct me if I'm wrong, but don't all the enemies you've taken down respawn if you die and you have to fight everything again to get to where you were? In a game like XIV you just run to camp after respawning. You don't have to refight your way back there. Most fights are avoidable, and those that aren't you can usually shake off by stepping outside the mob's territory.
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#100 Feb 15 2011 at 9:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:


Yeah, I simply don't understand people who think you need a crazy harsh death penalty to have an incentive to play well. When I go adventuring, I always try my best not to die. I don't need to lose SP to not want to spend my whole night attempting the same run. I feel no less accomplishment when I make it to hard to reach aetherial gates than I would if I lost tons of SP doing it.

All more of a death penalty would do would make me less likely to explore. No thanks.


I believe you, but I also think you are a rare breed sir.
Example;
While I do believe that some players really try their best to not die in big group situations because they have a little pride, I believe there is a greater number of people (with no penalty in place for dying) who are more likely to be leeroy jenkins morons. Most people who visit these forums show a great deal of interest in their game playing and can probably be categorized with the former. I wouldn't call myself some elitist ***** player, I just don''t like to play with dumb people. Needs a penalty to keep people trying.
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#101 Feb 15 2011 at 9:18 PM Rating: Good
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
I have only played bioshock's demo, and correct me if I'm wrong, but don't all the enemies you've taken down respawn if you die and you have to fight everything again to get to where you were? In a game like XIV you just run to camp after respawning. You don't have to refight your way back there. Most fights are avoidable, and those that aren't you can usually shake off by stepping outside the mob's territory.


No, they don't respawn, they don't even regenerate health, some enemies attempt to heal themselves using the first aid stations if they are near one, but that's about it. Most of the time you can literally just pick up the fight right where you left off. And honestly Bioshock is a great game, definitely goes on my "must play" list. The game play is fun, but it's the story that really makes the game (and makes it hard to put down the controller sometimes).

In most games the penalty is just "restart from last save" which is no big deal most of the time. Respawning and walking back to wherever I died to try the fight again is kind of like that in my opinion. It might even be a worse penalty since on non-online games, I'll usually save before attempting a tough battle.
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