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No penalties upon death.Follow

#102 Feb 16 2011 at 2:34 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree, the lack of a death penalty removes a lot of excitement from the game. exp loss or not it's fine with me either way but if they do decide to add a penalty, i would want it to feel about as bad as losing exp.

Exploring places isn't all that interesting when you know you aren't gonna lose anything if you die. in FFXI when you went out exploring you were **** scared to die and i loved that feeling.
#103 Feb 19 2011 at 4:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Lots of popular games, including certain FF games, have challenge guides where you intentionally impose additional rules on yourself to make the game more difficult. To those of you who want a death penalty, I offer my famous FFXI challenge guide, now available for FFXIV:

When you die, slam your nuts in a door.

Another problem solved with testicular violence. Well done, Kachi. Well done.
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#104 Feb 19 2011 at 9:25 PM Rating: Good
18 posts
I remember ffxi laying in the middle of no were hoping a wtm would come by. I remember how many party's would disband because some one died. I am happy with no death penalty. When I see a mob and wonder if I can take it I can try and see what happens. I like to solo a lot. If I see a yellow dodo Maybe I will live maybe I won. In FFXI I would never solo an even match. It was a fifty fifty if you would or not.in FFXI I would play it safe and not take the chance. I am having fun. This game need so much, More quest for one thing.Lets not nerf the thing. Dying in FFXI was a nightmare, No fun at all.
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#105 Feb 19 2011 at 10:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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The "veruca salt" mentality of a lot of the newer gamers and/or younger gamers will not allow a death penalty to happen.

I love their arguments as well, they all just copy what someone else said along the lines of "It does not make the game ________ if you have ________ it just makes it (frustrating, annoying, pointless, stupid, a time sink).

This is used by a majority against nearly anything that would make an MMO more than just a mindless zerg to the end. Very few want immersion anymore, because they can't/don't get immersed into anything. Fights rarely are very challenging at all, because that is "frustrating", and we would hate to upset the self entitled MMO generation.

I'm an old ******* that loved games such as Asheron's Call, UO, EQ1 and FFXI. Some of my fondest memories of those games are from situations where something was lost due to an untimely death. After it happens you forget what you lost and just play better to avoid it.

Players, the MMO world and the community just feel so numb to me now. Leveling to people seems like a chore instead of the journey, someone with better gear than you is now a no life loser instead of an inspiration.

I want it now daddy and I want it all.
#106 Feb 20 2011 at 2:56 AM Rating: Default
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As a long time FFXI player, I was never really happy at the idea of losing experience points when I died. The game took long enough to play and gain experience, (back before FoV), and I remember a specific even in which I have leveled up, got a buffer to be able to die 2+ times, gone to town and gotten a bunch of upgrades, sold my old crap, and then I died three times and was left with not a stitch. Embarrassing and frustrating.

In XIV, all of the "content," (I use that term loosely), is timed. So simply having to run back, and wait for your weakness to wear off seems appropriate to the rest of the game. I agree that there should be more of reason to not want to die... But I think if SP/EXP were taken away from me when I died, I would absolutely quit. Surplus already hinders me from advancing in almost any meaningful way. I can spend one night a week doing leves with my friends and then we're done.

Also, with threat being screwed up, I die way too much. I play a THM mostly, so I tend to just spam Sac 1 & 2 over and over until my group has killed the group of mobs, then I Siphon MP and keep going. But I found out that I can spam aoe heals all day long and no one will even look my way. But god help me if I cast Bio 1. Suddenly it's like I said "bomb" in an airport. They're just all over me, and I die much faster than the tank can even hit provoke.

So no... I don't want to lose SP, because dieing happens a lot at this stage of the game's development. But I do agree that there needs to be a reason to not die. As it stands now... when things get really hard, I'll cast sacrifice on my team, then run in with Punishing Barbs on, and Bio + Poison / heal my *** off, hoping they'll attack me multiple times before I die. It works better than it sounds.... I can normally have a yellow group to about half HP, and it only cost one member of the party. Because I play a healer, I don't even really need my gear. I can perform just as well without it. Debuffs are useless because things die too fast, or not at all. So I just buff and heal... And suicide bomb mobs that are too tough so my party can kill what's left when I'm dead. I still get SP for it....

Maybe that should be the death penalty? Make it so if one is dead, they don't receive SP/EXP for the kill. Even that is probably harsh. But at this point, I don't even repair my gear anymore. It's a waste of gil. My team mates laugh that I die so much, but I honestly stopped caring. As long as I'm getting SP, (I don't even care about EXP), I'm a happy camper.

Hopefully this problem will get resolved. I completely agree with the earlier post about sneak in XI. I miss exploring areas, and being terribly afraid I was going to bump into something nasty. I liked the idea that I could go explore high level areas on my own, and that was a big part of my enjoyment. I think that's something we don't have in XIV... as I can't even walk to Camp Bluefog without dieing from giant scorpions... and yet I'm only ****** off because I can't get to the camp, and not that I died.

But heavens no. Please don't take my SP away. I need it to get new abilities. It's the only reason to play the game at all, (besides playing with my friends).
#107 Feb 20 2011 at 4:09 AM Rating: Good
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I'm hoping when harder boss battles and instances come along, Raise and Resurrect will be of greater importance.

But then again, I really don't like the idea of zombie-fighting in order to get a win (as in dying and raising, whittling down the monster even more, rinse and repeat), so they'd have to implement like an auto boot out of instance if everyone is dead at the same time, or something to that effect.

I also don't like the idea of bloodwarping on purpose in order for a free ride, but instead of just taking that away, they need to implement chocobos or something. If people are doing it en masse, it shows there are clear flaws within the system, so either anima needs to come back quicker, or we need better alternate methods of traveling.
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#108 Feb 20 2011 at 8:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I miss death penalties. Made evry fight feel more "important".
However, I also understand that some people don't like it.
So... give us a bonus to EXP we earn the longer we stay alife -> everybody's happy.
#109 Feb 20 2011 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
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62 posts
i just got killed by a salamander in bloodshore while doing a mining leve. Did not see it coming at all. I would probably rage if it would mean loss of SP but now i just alttab and do something else for a few minutes and then continue my merry way. I like it this way.
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#110 Feb 20 2011 at 9:57 AM Rating: Good
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crushgroove wrote:
The "veruca salt" mentality of a lot of the newer gamers and/or younger gamers will not allow a death penalty to happen.

I love their arguments as well, they all just copy what someone else said along the lines of "It does not make the game ________ if you have ________ it just makes it (frustrating, annoying, pointless, stupid, a time sink).

This is used by a majority against nearly anything that would make an MMO more than just a mindless zerg to the end. Very few want immersion anymore, because they can't/don't get immersed into anything. Fights rarely are very challenging at all, because that is "frustrating", and we would hate to upset the self entitled MMO generation.

I'm an old ******* that loved games such as Asheron's Call, UO, EQ1 and FFXI. Some of my fondest memories of those games are from situations where something was lost due to an untimely death. After it happens you forget what you lost and just play better to avoid it.

Players, the MMO world and the community just feel so numb to me now. Leveling to people seems like a chore instead of the journey, someone with better gear than you is now a no life loser instead of an inspiration.

I want it now daddy and I want it all.


Just because a person has a different opinion than you about what is fun, does not mean that person is wrong, and there is no need to try to classify them as something less desirable because they do not agree with you. I played EQ too. I was 16 then and I spent all my free time (including summers) playing the thing. Now I work 7am to 7pm on some days and 9-5 on some other days.

I want more of my free time to be spent having fun, doing things that are progressing me in the game and less time spent with downtime or penalties. On my 7-7 days I have maybe 2 hours in which to play the game, if I die and lose 10% of my level in that time, I will not have enough time to regain it. The EQ/FFXI generation has grown up, we have jobs, responsibilities. We don't have time for games like that anymore. If we did, we'd probably still be playing them.
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#111 Feb 20 2011 at 10:34 AM Rating: Decent
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602 posts
Rekia wrote:
crushgroove wrote:
The "veruca salt" mentality of a lot of the newer gamers and/or younger gamers will not allow a death penalty to happen.

I love their arguments as well, they all just copy what someone else said along the lines of "It does not make the game ________ if you have ________ it just makes it (frustrating, annoying, pointless, stupid, a time sink).

This is used by a majority against nearly anything that would make an MMO more than just a mindless zerg to the end. Very few want immersion anymore, because they can't/don't get immersed into anything. Fights rarely are very challenging at all, because that is "frustrating", and we would hate to upset the self entitled MMO generation.

I'm an old ******* that loved games such as Asheron's Call, UO, EQ1 and FFXI. Some of my fondest memories of those games are from situations where something was lost due to an untimely death. After it happens you forget what you lost and just play better to avoid it.

Players, the MMO world and the community just feel so numb to me now. Leveling to people seems like a chore instead of the journey, someone with better gear than you is now a no life loser instead of an inspiration.

I want it now daddy and I want it all.


Just because a person has a different opinion than you about what is fun, does not mean that person is wrong, and there is no need to try to classify them as something less desirable because they do not agree with you. I played EQ too. I was 16 then and I spent all my free time (including summers) playing the thing. Now I work 7am to 7pm on some days and 9-5 on some other days.

I want more of my free time to be spent having fun, doing things that are progressing me in the game and less time spent with downtime or penalties. On my 7-7 days I have maybe 2 hours in which to play the game, if I die and lose 10% of my level in that time, I will not have enough time to regain it. The EQ/FFXI generation has grown up, we have jobs, responsibilities. We don't have time for games like that anymore. If we did, we'd probably still be playing them.


A death penalty is about making things *more* fun. Challenge is fun. Currently its a mind numbing race to 50.
I don't get people who say they now have reached a point in their lives in which they have a full time job or something like that.

I really doubt anyone's going to die over and over so frequently it will affect their playtime because of other obligations (unless you're stubbornly fighting something you shouldn't over and over, and then the death system would be fulfilling its purpose). Even more so considering stuff like raise would help you diminish the exp lost.
If anything it'd make things more fun and immersive. You'd care more about what you're doing for those 2 hours you get to play.

Edited, Feb 20th 2011 11:35am by MajidahSihaam
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#112 Feb 20 2011 at 10:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
Rekia wrote:
crushgroove wrote:
The "veruca salt" mentality of a lot of the newer gamers and/or younger gamers will not allow a death penalty to happen.

I love their arguments as well, they all just copy what someone else said along the lines of "It does not make the game ________ if you have ________ it just makes it (frustrating, annoying, pointless, stupid, a time sink).

This is used by a majority against nearly anything that would make an MMO more than just a mindless zerg to the end. Very few want immersion anymore, because they can't/don't get immersed into anything. Fights rarely are very challenging at all, because that is "frustrating", and we would hate to upset the self entitled MMO generation.

I'm an old ******* that loved games such as Asheron's Call, UO, EQ1 and FFXI. Some of my fondest memories of those games are from situations where something was lost due to an untimely death. After it happens you forget what you lost and just play better to avoid it.

Players, the MMO world and the community just feel so numb to me now. Leveling to people seems like a chore instead of the journey, someone with better gear than you is now a no life loser instead of an inspiration.

I want it now daddy and I want it all.


Just because a person has a different opinion than you about what is fun, does not mean that person is wrong, and there is no need to try to classify them as something less desirable because they do not agree with you. I played EQ too. I was 16 then and I spent all my free time (including summers) playing the thing. Now I work 7am to 7pm on some days and 9-5 on some other days.

I want more of my free time to be spent having fun, doing things that are progressing me in the game and less time spent with downtime or penalties. On my 7-7 days I have maybe 2 hours in which to play the game, if I die and lose 10% of my level in that time, I will not have enough time to regain it. The EQ/FFXI generation has grown up, we have jobs, responsibilities. We don't have time for games like that anymore. If we did, we'd probably still be playing them.


A death penalty is about making things *more* fun. Challenge is fun. Currently its a mind numbing race to 50.
I don't get people who say they now have reached a point in their lives in which they have a full time job or something like that.

I really doubt anyone's going to die over and over so frequently it will affect their playtime because of other obligations (unless you're stubbornly fighting something you shouldn't over and over, and then the death system would be fulfilling its purpose). Even more so considering stuff like raise would help you diminish the exp lost.
If anything it'd make things more fun and immersive. You'd care more about what you're doing for those 2 hours you get to play.

Edited, Feb 20th 2011 11:35am by MajidahSihaam


It's not more fun to us though, that's our point. It's less fun. Fun is an opinion. I enjoy roller coasters a lot, but my sister has panic attacks. It's the same experience but a completely different emotional response.
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#113 Feb 20 2011 at 11:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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264 posts
Quote:
Demon's Souls. Won game of the year.

If you die you drop all the souls you have on you, all the mobs respawn and they become stronger. You have to start from the beginning of the area.
And if you were in body form the world tendency drops one point into black.

Game. of. the. @#%^ing. year.


THIS.


I am not saying FFXIV needs to be like this, but I agree that there needs to be a sense of urgency and danger. Now does that mean a steeper death penalty? Maybe so, maybe not.

Thayos ole buddy, we had some good times in that CoP static, completing (before it was nerfed and still ridiculously hard) it gave me a great sense of achievement in the glory of battle because it was so insanely hard. It was made even harder by our unconventional set up: NIN (me), BST, RDM x2 (one of which was Thay), THF, WHM (Pikko).

That being said, I could live without a stronger death penalty as long as the endgame, missions, and epic style quests are all extremely challenging. Something that makes me pay attention, keeps me on my toes, and is ragequit hard. Not just 18 BLMs = success >.> However, for big challenge I'd also expect big rewards both in terms of storyline and loot. Now just to keep it fun for the eazymoders, there should be either other easier content or possibly levels of difficulty. This would mean a sacrifice in Loot though. Either the less challenging would have lower drop rates or just less awesome loot.
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#114 Feb 20 2011 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Rekia wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:
Rekia wrote:
crushgroove wrote:
The "veruca salt" mentality of a lot of the newer gamers and/or younger gamers will not allow a death penalty to happen.

I love their arguments as well, they all just copy what someone else said along the lines of "It does not make the game ________ if you have ________ it just makes it (frustrating, annoying, pointless, stupid, a time sink).

This is used by a majority against nearly anything that would make an MMO more than just a mindless zerg to the end. Very few want immersion anymore, because they can't/don't get immersed into anything. Fights rarely are very challenging at all, because that is "frustrating", and we would hate to upset the self entitled MMO generation.

I'm an old ******* that loved games such as Asheron's Call, UO, EQ1 and FFXI. Some of my fondest memories of those games are from situations where something was lost due to an untimely death. After it happens you forget what you lost and just play better to avoid it.

Players, the MMO world and the community just feel so numb to me now. Leveling to people seems like a chore instead of the journey, someone with better gear than you is now a no life loser instead of an inspiration.

I want it now daddy and I want it all.


Just because a person has a different opinion than you about what is fun, does not mean that person is wrong, and there is no need to try to classify them as something less desirable because they do not agree with you. I played EQ too. I was 16 then and I spent all my free time (including summers) playing the thing. Now I work 7am to 7pm on some days and 9-5 on some other days.

I want more of my free time to be spent having fun, doing things that are progressing me in the game and less time spent with downtime or penalties. On my 7-7 days I have maybe 2 hours in which to play the game, if I die and lose 10% of my level in that time, I will not have enough time to regain it. The EQ/FFXI generation has grown up, we have jobs, responsibilities. We don't have time for games like that anymore. If we did, we'd probably still be playing them.


A death penalty is about making things *more* fun. Challenge is fun. Currently its a mind numbing race to 50.
I don't get people who say they now have reached a point in their lives in which they have a full time job or something like that.

I really doubt anyone's going to die over and over so frequently it will affect their playtime because of other obligations (unless you're stubbornly fighting something you shouldn't over and over, and then the death system would be fulfilling its purpose). Even more so considering stuff like raise would help you diminish the exp lost.
If anything it'd make things more fun and immersive. You'd care more about what you're doing for those 2 hours you get to play.

Edited, Feb 20th 2011 11:35am by MajidahSihaam


It's not more fun to us though, that's our point. It's less fun. Fun is an opinion. I enjoy roller coasters a lot, but my sister has panic attacks. It's the same experience but a completely different emotional response.


It used to be fun for you, though. Having spent so much of your life with games like EQ and XI. Or at least it sounded a bit like that in your previous post.

MMORPGs are time consuming. The more time and effort you put into your character tackled by frustrations makes your bond with your avatar become stronger.
You said it yourself. Your generation had enough time to enjoy games like this due to your freetime. Why must MMORPGs shift and younger generations experience something less immersive because you have less time to spend actually playing the game? Why must the new FFXIs and EQs grow up with the generation that played them when the former generation enjoyed them so much and invested so much time into them?

Wouldn't it make more sense for said generation to come to terms with the fact that maybe they are too old to be the fastest to get to the max rank at games that are this time consuming when they have so many real life obligations?

And honestly, who can't put more than 2 hours into a game on a sunday? Almost no one in my linkshell plays less than 2 hours a day and its full of engineers and office men. Our age range goes from 20 to 29 and I'd say most players spend the same or close to the same ammount of time an old school FFXI player spent playing.
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Marauder, Weaver & Alchemist.

#115 Feb 20 2011 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
11 posts
A Gil sink is a good idea for death but not XP/SP loss so much

-Since the majority of actions you do in a game are to get XP/SP and most end-game is for gear, merits, usually non-gil related rewards, dying and losing Gil would not be a direct inhibitor to progress in the majority of situations per se but more of a side nuisance- If you die a lot you will not have much Gil and the end result will be the need to farm, do gil quests, etc if you want to buy something. The added bonus of having it relating to mini-games or side-time sinks is when you decide "OK i want to buy this item but I need tons more gil for mats- I gotta farm/ gil quest, etc." This will in the end feel like another accomplishment in itself even though if you didn't die the 50 times that week you could have afforded it. (likely exaggerated but someone could be masochistic :P )

With XP/SP loss, as a common feeling felt often when playing FFXI was that if you got into a bad party after LFG for an hour or two, you could end up wasting many hours of time with wipes and not accomplish a thing- actually set you back because you lost 1k xp or so from a terrible group with many wipes and is very discouraging for players. "I just wasted 4 hours of my time and I got a few shards and -1000 xp". (of course this applies for situations before raise and gets remedied in a few ways, for the first chunk and majority of the game very frustrating) Who has been LF WHM, need raise in the Dunes for an hour because some chump forgot to set their HP :P

Does the Gil sink have to be in the form of damage equipment? well it's successful for WoW but for FFXIV, I wouldn't like it since the more damage the equipment, the worse stats it gives (I believe this is correct but I won't be able to play FFXIV til September so not 100%) whereas WoW equip is good until 0 (which of course isn't realistic at all) - A good idea that was brought up was loosing anima, perhaps if they implemented the popular suggesting of being able to buy anima this could intrinsically be a good Gil-sink and penalty for dying. Also adding more options for spending anima would be cool as well (used in Chocobo breeding or Mog mansion sculpting could be a very interesting way of using it)

I agree that having too little of death penalty detracts from the importance of staying alive- I could see many people killing their party for fun because it doesn't mean anything and people won't get as angry at them, could become a token log off at the end of a gaming session- "Ok guys good session, let's wipe and log off." That's unrealistic and quite stupid lol.

So in short, make anima or Gil loss a death penalty in some manner or form and don't have direct progress penalized. Just imagine the mentality being applied to a gathering or farming- if you died you would lose ore, wood, mats- sure is a great incentive to stay alive but makes any unwarranted death a much larger **** off resulting in much nerd rage and noob calling.
#116 Feb 20 2011 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
It used to be fun for you, though. Having spent so much of your life with games like EQ and XI. Or at least it sounded a bit like that in your previous post.

MMORPGs are time consuming. The more time and effort you put into your character tackled by frustrations makes your bond with your avatar become stronger.
You said it yourself. Your generation had enough time to enjoy games like this due to your freetime. Why must MMORPGs shift and younger generations experience something less immersive because you have less time to spend actually playing the game? Why must the new FFXIs and EQs grow up with the generation that played them when the former generation enjoyed them so much and invested so much time into them?

Wouldn't it make more sense for said generation to come to terms with the fact that maybe they are too old to be the fastest to get to the max rank at games that are this time consuming when they have so many real life obligations?

And honestly, who can't put more than 2 hours into a game on a sunday? Almost no one in my linkshell plays less than 2 hours a day and its full of engineers and office men. Our age range goes from 20 to 29 and I'd say most players spend the same or close to the same ammount of time an old school FFXI player spent playing.


To the part I bolded I just have to say: It's because today's generation does not want games to be like they were in 1996. Today's generation doesn't even read the quest dialog, the most interesting part of the quest! The problem with a forum is that we are only talking to a certain dynamic of a group of people, usually the really opinionated. If we did a poll on whether or not you would like a death penalty, we would not have a clear idea on what the average gamer wants, we would only know what the average "FFXIV forum goer" wants. I don't really think the average gamer wants a game like EQ or FFXI and I don't think it would be a good business decision to try to cater to that market.

You can have a challenging experience in a game without punishing the player for dying. Dungeons and Dragons online had some pretty fun little puzzles in their instanced dungeons. I would love to see something like that implemented. I love puzzles, but I hate dying, and being punished for dying just makes it even worse, it's like insult to injury. Not only did I fail and die, but now I am punished for it.

Also I can't put 2 hours in on Sunday sometimes. Technically I should have been working today, but my project was delayed (what a surprised) so I am at home, for now (as soon as I try to take a nap, they will call me in, I just know it). Yeah office people have cool 9-5 jobs with weekends off, but it's becoming more common for people to have non-traditional hours these days.

If the younger generation wants games like FFXI and EQ, then by all means, go play those games. I think most people want something different though.

I think it's worth noting that some things in EQ drove me absolutely crazy. But we used to deal with things that drove us crazy because there was a very limited selection of massively multi player games out there. Today's market is flooded with MMOs. Just on this computer alone I have 10 different ones to choose from (most inactive, who could afford all the subscription fees :P). My boyfriend's computer has a couple I don't have too.

I used to use dial-up to connect to the internet. There is no way I would settle for such a low standard of performance for my internet connection now days. My expectation is much higher because I have a lot more to choose from.

PS: I tried to proof read this, but I have decided I need to get more sleep, so I'm sorry if it doesn't make sense!
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#117 Feb 20 2011 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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568 posts
Hyzugi wrote:
A Gil sink is a good idea for death but not XP/SP loss so much

-Since the majority of actions you do in a game are to get XP/SP and most end-game is for gear, merits, usually non-gil related rewards, dying and losing Gil would not be a direct inhibitor to progress in the majority of situations per se but more of a side nuisance- If you die a lot you will not have much Gil and the end result will be the need to farm, do gil quests, etc if you want to buy something. The added bonus of having it relating to mini-games or side-time sinks is when you decide "OK i want to buy this item but I need tons more gil for mats- I gotta farm/ gil quest, etc." This will in the end feel like another accomplishment in itself even though if you didn't die the 50 times that week you could have afforded it. (likely exaggerated but someone could be masochistic :P )

With XP/SP loss, as a common feeling felt often when playing FFXI was that if you got into a bad party after LFG for an hour or two, you could end up wasting many hours of time with wipes and not accomplish a thing- actually set you back because you lost 1k xp or so from a terrible group with many wipes and is very discouraging for players. "I just wasted 4 hours of my time and I got a few shards and -1000 xp". (of course this applies for situations before raise and gets remedied in a few ways, for the first chunk and majority of the game very frustrating) Who has been LF WHM, need raise in the Dunes for an hour because some chump forgot to set their HP :P

Does the Gil sink have to be in the form of damage equipment? well it's successful for WoW but for FFXIV, I wouldn't like it since the more damage the equipment, the worse stats it gives (I believe this is correct but I won't be able to play FFXIV til September so not 100%) whereas WoW equip is good until 0 (which of course isn't realistic at all) - A good idea that was brought up was loosing anima, perhaps if they implemented the popular suggesting of being able to buy anima this could intrinsically be a good Gil-sink and penalty for dying. Also adding more options for spending anima would be cool as well (used in Chocobo breeding or Mog mansion sculpting could be a very interesting way of using it)

I agree that having too little of death penalty detracts from the importance of staying alive- I could see many people killing their party for fun because it doesn't mean anything and people won't get as angry at them, could become a token log off at the end of a gaming session- "Ok guys good session, let's wipe and log off." That's unrealistic and quite stupid lol.

So in short, make anima or Gil loss a death penalty in some manner or form and don't have direct progress penalized. Just imagine the mentality being applied to a gathering or farming- if you died you would lose ore, wood, mats- sure is a great incentive to stay alive but makes any unwarranted death a much larger **** off resulting in much nerd rage and noob calling.



The problem is that gil is worthless so it's the same scenario all over again players keep dying and thus play without giving the strategy a second thought and before you know it they don't give a **** about the world nor the challenges as it all will blend into gray "nothing is rewarding or punishing" blurry mess.

Games are about risk and reward even casual ones.
#118 Feb 20 2011 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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crushgroove wrote:
The "veruca salt" mentality of a lot of the newer gamers and/or younger gamers will not allow a death penalty to happen.

I love their arguments as well, they all just copy what someone else said along the lines of "It does not make the game ________ if you have ________ it just makes it (frustrating, annoying, pointless, stupid, a time sink).

This is used by a majority against nearly anything that would make an MMO more than just a mindless zerg to the end. Very few want immersion anymore, because they can't/don't get immersed into anything. Fights rarely are very challenging at all, because that is "frustrating", and we would hate to upset the self entitled MMO generation.

I'm an old ******* that loved games such as Asheron's Call, UO, EQ1 and FFXI. Some of my fondest memories of those games are from situations where something was lost due to an untimely death. After it happens you forget what you lost and just play better to avoid it.

Players, the MMO world and the community just feel so numb to me now. Leveling to people seems like a chore instead of the journey, someone with better gear than you is now a no life loser instead of an inspiration.

I want it now daddy and I want it all.


If I could rate you up 1000 times, I would. Jesus... talk about hitting the nail squarely on the head. Someone, in a different thread, told me that if I didn't like the battle system/stamina bar specifically "why are you playing the game since that's basically the core of what ffxiv is?"... I tried to explain that I thought the core of an MMO should be immersion, story, community and that that was why I played an FF MMO. Woosh. We all have demands on our time so we want to be able to achieve things without spending our lives logged in to FFXIV. There's a huge difference between wanting a return on your time invested and wanting instant gratification, which seems to be the only thing that will satisfy the new age of MMO gamers. Sad days.
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#119 Feb 20 2011 at 1:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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I just wanted to add that people often mistake casual games as being easy and this is not at all true.

Games like Bejeweled, Tetris and Final Fantasy Fables are accessible and that makes them fit into the casual market (like XIV in my mind is too).

The only difference is that the sense of immersion and challenge is much more rare to find in XIV than any of the other games.

It's like getting to that 9th round in Tetris and then you're suddenly awarded an infinite amount of re-tries.

Sort of takes away the fun, unless you just really enjoy rotating colored blocks.

#120 Feb 20 2011 at 4:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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A death penalty is about making things *more* fun. Challenge is fun. Currently its a mind numbing race to 50.


A death penalty is not a challenge. It's a punishment. Fining a basketball player when he misses a basket is not a challenge, but a punishment. A challenge is moving the basket further away, putting defensive players in front of him, etc.

Look, FFXIV is not a bad game because it lacks a death penalty. It's a bad game for a hundred other reasons, many of which involve it being far too simple and easy a game. The only "challenge" a death penalty will add is the challenge of picking your fights wisely as a substitute for the kind of skill GOOD games have-- the kind where your skill determines if you beat the enemy or not. Currently, that's mostly decided by a random number generator or a script. Very few successful games punish their player for losing, and none of them owe their success to punishing the loser.

But "picking your fights wisely" is not going to add anything to this game, not in the least. All it's going to do is discourage people from fighting things that might kill them, giving them even less to do than they already can. And if there ever does become a notable skill requirement to this game, all it will do is discourage people from taking on a challenge.

Essentially, if you want a death penalty, fine, whatever. You probably have some masochistic compulsions that you need to deal with, but I'm not here to judge you. However, if you actually think a death penalty will do this game any good with the playerbase, existing or potential, you're looney toons.

____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#121 Feb 20 2011 at 5:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
On the other hand, a penalty does a lot for immersion. And thats what XIV is missing,


Not picking on you btw, this just caught my eye.

FFXIV does have a problem with immersion, but for many reasons other than death. One of them is the compass radar which tells you where everything that could kill you is. You don't even have to look around to avoid monsters-- just staring at your little map will do the trick. Nothing is going to jump out from behind the bushes and catch you off guard. For this reason, even with a death penalty, it's already easy to avoid death altogether.

Personally I don't think a death penalty does a thing for immersion. It makes you more frustrated with death, but that only adds a sense of excitement if it doesn't deter you from taking risks. Right now, XIV has relatively little risk of death in the first place. At the very least, the motivation to overcome the risk has to outweigh the potential penalty, but as has been pointed out, there isn't much motivation in FFXIV aside from hitting the cap (for the completionists out there). But that's a glaring problem for another day.

---

I also want to address a misunderstanding some people have about subjectivity. Subjectivity refers to the subject, i.e., the person, and so it's technically correct to call enjoyment of a game "subjective" just as you would a book, a movie, or food. However, individuals are also objects-- I can objectively say that I like steak. It's only subjective to say that "steak is good". That said, most people like steak... and people almost universally dislike the taste of ****. That's because human brains aren't THAT different-- we have mostly similar psychologies.

And like art and food, the guiding principles of what we like tend to apply almost universally, even moreso with games than other subjective categories. As far as experiential past-times go, games are easily the most engaging. You don't appreciate a game just by looking at it, listening to it, or tasting it-- a game is defined by an attempt to fulfill its objective. And in the strictest sense, the model for creating good gameplay is pretty simple and applies almost universally, and that's largely why certain games are runaway hits while others languish in total failure. It's actually the other arts involved, like the visual aesthetics, the music, the story... that lend games to be more subjective. Games themselves, when talking purely about the gameplay, are not so subjective afterall.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#122 Feb 20 2011 at 5:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
A death penalty is about making things *more* fun. Challenge is fun. Currently its a mind numbing race to 50.


A death penalty is not a challenge. It's a punishment. Fining a basketball player when he misses a basket is not a challenge, but a punishment. A challenge is moving the basket further away, putting defensive players in front of him, etc.

Look, FFXIV is not a bad game because it lacks a death penalty. It's a bad game for a hundred other reasons, many of which involve it being far too simple and easy a game. The only "challenge" a death penalty will add is the challenge of picking your fights wisely as a substitute for the kind of skill GOOD games have-- the kind where your skill determines if you beat the enemy or not. Currently, that's mostly decided by a random number generator or a script. Very few successful games punish their player for losing, and none of them owe their success to punishing the loser.

But "picking your fights wisely" is not going to add anything to this game, not in the least. All it's going to do is discourage people from fighting things that might kill them, giving them even less to do than they already can. And if there ever does become a notable skill requirement to this game, all it will do is discourage people from taking on a challenge.

Essentially, if you want a death penalty, fine, whatever. You probably have some masochistic compulsions that you need to deal with, but I'm not here to judge you. However, if you actually think a death penalty will do this game any good with the playerbase, existing or potential, you're looney toons.



I completely agree. The first paragraph really captures my opinion on the matter. Thank you for explaining what I was trying to say, only more coherently.

I should have just went and taken a nap instead of trying to post. All it did was earn me a rate down for some reason :P I try to post positive and constructive responses (and usually well thought out). But I guess people rate you down even if you aren't being offensive. It doesn't really bother me, it's just funny.
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#123 Feb 20 2011 at 5:20 PM Rating: Good
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vicious172 wrote:
Exploring places isn't all that interesting when you know you aren't gonna lose anything if you die. in FFXI when you went out exploring you were **** scared to die and i loved that feeling.
Then you aren't exploring for the same reason I am. The exploring part of it.

Finding new places that offer different monsters to fight, cool scenery, a good place to take a screen shot, something to make you go "wow...".

That is what is missing in this game. Not an experience penalty.

Granted, there are some really neat places I've seen.
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#124 Feb 20 2011 at 9:09 PM Rating: Decent
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
I've read this argument made by people way smarter than me, but I'll try. Adding a harsh death penalty doesn't make the content more challenging, just more frustrating. The act of failing and simply having to start over is plenty. You don't win an encounter (ie die), you don't get the benefits, thats fair, but when games either prevent you from playing (ie, rez sickness timer), or undoes progress (ie EXP penalty, having to recover gear), that's going a bit too far.

And if you want to read it from someone smarter than me, Heres a link to a guy on the escapist who wrote about it a few times,
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/8450-Experienced-Points-The-Death-of-the-Death-Penalty


On the other hand, a penalty does a lot for immersion. And thats what XIV is missing,

Who here didn't grip fearfully at his controller when cruising the shadow lord's castle for the first time? Opening door by door, afraid of every turn and every sneak that wore off?

FFXIV has nothing remotely similar to that feeling of immersion because there's nothing to lose.


Really?

How does having to wait 3-5 minutes in real life handle immersion? You're either wandering around while waiting on this arbitrary countdown to finish or doing absolutely nothing as it finishes. The only ways you're going to get immersion from an MMO death is either:

1) You get a small cutscene where the storyline hero comes by, helps you to regain consciousness, and declares "I won't always be there to save you XXXX YYYYY."

2) You stay unconscious until an arbitrary number counts down and you regain consciousness on your own with say 25-30% health.

2) You simply stay there, unconscious, until someone comes to wake you.

That's it. Nothing else even remotely relates to being immersed; they're simply stupid ideas that have been used in the past to slow down progression in what's supposed to be an enjoyable game. If you're looking for more immersion in an online game, dying is not how to go about it and it's moronic to harp about this.

It's a topic that's been beaten to death, and most developers are smart enough to realize how stupid overly punishing deaths are. If your masochistic tendencies are so bad that you need someone to punish you for dying in an online game then hire someone to literally punch you in the face every time you die in the game.

Grats! You get the punishment you so crave and the rest of us don't have to deal with stupid mechanics.

Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
If there is no point or penalty to dying, why do we even die at all?


The point is that we fail at succeeding. That's the penalty.


This.

Dying in an MMO means F A I L U R E. If you need more abuse heaped upon you when failing something, you aren't very well adjusted.

Edited, Feb 20th 2011 10:12pm by StrijderVechter
#125 Feb 21 2011 at 6:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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When I think back on FFXI, the death penalty brings back memories of huge amounts of rage and hate. Not my own but being in parties where there would be a wipe and one of the people would freaking explode. Profanity being thrown around like crazy. Extremely cruel personal attacks. It REALLY brought out the worst in some people. Death penalties like that brought a tension to the game that it could have really done without.
#126 Feb 21 2011 at 7:31 PM Rating: Decent
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StrijderVechter wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
I've read this argument made by people way smarter than me, but I'll try. Adding a harsh death penalty doesn't make the content more challenging, just more frustrating. The act of failing and simply having to start over is plenty. You don't win an encounter (ie die), you don't get the benefits, thats fair, but when games either prevent you from playing (ie, rez sickness timer), or undoes progress (ie EXP penalty, having to recover gear), that's going a bit too far.

And if you want to read it from someone smarter than me, Heres a link to a guy on the escapist who wrote about it a few times,
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/8450-Experienced-Points-The-Death-of-the-Death-Penalty


On the other hand, a penalty does a lot for immersion. And thats what XIV is missing,

Who here didn't grip fearfully at his controller when cruising the shadow lord's castle for the first time? Opening door by door, afraid of every turn and every sneak that wore off?

FFXIV has nothing remotely similar to that feeling of immersion because there's nothing to lose.


Really?

How does having to wait 3-5 minutes in real life handle immersion? You're either wandering around while waiting on this arbitrary countdown to finish or doing absolutely nothing as it finishes. The only ways you're going to get immersion from an MMO death is either:

1) You get a small cutscene where the storyline hero comes by, helps you to regain consciousness, and declares "I won't always be there to save you XXXX YYYYY."

2) You stay unconscious until an arbitrary number counts down and you regain consciousness on your own with say 25-30% health.

2) You simply stay there, unconscious, until someone comes to wake you.

That's it. Nothing else even remotely relates to being immersed; they're simply stupid ideas that have been used in the past to slow down progression in what's supposed to be an enjoyable game. If you're looking for more immersion in an online game, dying is not how to go about it and it's moronic to harp about this.

It's a topic that's been beaten to death, and most developers are smart enough to realize how stupid overly punishing deaths are. If your masochistic tendencies are so bad that you need someone to punish you for dying in an online game then hire someone to literally punch you in the face every time you die in the game.

Grats! You get the punishment you so crave and the rest of us don't have to deal with stupid mechanics.

Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
If there is no point or penalty to dying, why do we even die at all?


The point is that we fail at succeeding. That's the penalty.


This.

Dying in an MMO means F A I L U R E. If you need more abuse heaped upon you when failing something, you aren't very well adjusted.

Edited, Feb 20th 2011 10:12pm by StrijderVechter




1). I've played with too many stupid SAMs, DRKs,and BLMs (even with a exp penalty) that knew they would die, but over nuked/hit anyways just to put up those BIG NUMBERS. This is just another reason I would like to see a SP penalty. You being a tard and getting killed, only increases the chance of our FAILURE that you guys are content on having as your only penalty for failing or being a ****** player. For some of us, this FAILURE holds more merit. We would like to see the SP penalty to keep you $hitty players playing your absolute best, so you don't get us killed.

2). It doesn't need to be argued that having a death penalty changes everything in regards to how people play. If people can't see this, then you people don't see much and can be viewed as brain dead. HOWEVER, (I'll write this again because people don't want to read all replies again)There is nothing wrong with you people complaining that you don't want to waste your time getting the SP back. Everyone has different opinions, and that's okay. But let's not be dumb and say it doesn't change the way people play. This is what people are trying to say in the bulk of this thread.

3). 3 comes after 2.
jk ;p, just poking fun. I'm not that petty.
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#127 Feb 21 2011 at 10:22 PM Rating: Decent
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THIS^^ Everyone seems to be getting bent outta shape when its fairly common sense that this would change the way people play. The saying 'Strength through adversity' comes to mind! I'm not saying that I'm for implementing a SP loss system, but just saying that it does infact have alot more benefits then it does negatives. A stronger death system would push people to become much better players than what they are atm. At the very least when we die in game we SHOULD NOT be able to get credit/SP for the kills that are done while we are laying on the floor dead. Don't even get why that 'exploit' is even in the game. As it stands right now you die and u just lie there graciously to be handed your sp for the mob if your other members kill the mob. This and the 3 minute penalty isn't enough to get you immersed enough as you should and have you care about whether you live or die but simply that you complete the objectives at hand regardless and/or get your reward (SP being my example).

Edited, Feb 21st 2011 11:22pm by MishaNevarian
#128 Feb 21 2011 at 10:59 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
A stronger death system would push people to become much better players than what they are atm.


That's naive. A stronger death system generally just adds frustration to the knowledge that you failed. It might push some players, but not in a way that they want to be pushed.

Thing is, even the people who ask for a death penalty are asking for one primarily for other people, because as they see it, OTHER players are the ones who suck, need to L2P, and stop being deathly dying noobs. They themselves very rarely, if ever, die. A stronger death penalty will barely affect them at all!

But those same people are REALLY upset when they inevitably do die. They especially get awfully ***** with the noobs who made them die by sucking. Guess what? There will always be ****** players. There have always been ****** players, even in games with the most extremely absurd death penalties. People still die. The question is how bitter they are towards others and the game afterwards. And how quickly will they quit?

Same thing happened in FFXI, ****, any MMO with a moderately punitive system EVER, and the same will happen in FFXIV.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#129 Feb 21 2011 at 11:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Same thing happened in FFXI, ****, any MMO with a moderately punitive system EVER, and the same will happen in FFXIV.


Shhhh!

Don't tell them that. They like to live in their own reality where a game that kills your dog if your character dies brings out these god-like players from nowhere.
#130 Feb 22 2011 at 12:00 AM Rating: Decent
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I die 1000% more in this game than in FFXI.

I can't tell if this is because I am more reckless with no death penalty, or because the solo VS party combat + poor targeting is the cause.

I like to think that the cause is the hate system that isn't properly balanced (my friend out dd's me but my invigorate rips hate) is the cause.

Personally I would prefer some sort of penalty for death. Currently, during leves I get enough of a penalty with the lost time. I would like leves to be free of penalty (aside from the time loss) but normal leveling / fighting to have some penalty, like equipment damage.
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#131 Feb 22 2011 at 12:11 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
A stronger death system would push people to become much better players than what they are atm.


That's naive. A stronger death system generally just adds frustration to the knowledge that you failed. It might push some players, but not in a way that they want to be pushed.

Thing is, even the people who ask for a death penalty are asking for one primarily for other people, because as they see it, OTHER players are the ones who suck, need to L2P, and stop being deathly dying noobs. They themselves very rarely, if ever, die. A stronger death penalty will barely affect them at all!

But those same people are REALLY upset when they inevitably do die. They especially get awfully ***** with the noobs who made them die by sucking. Guess what? There will always be sh*tty players. There have always been sh*tty players, even in games with the most extremely absurd death penalties. People still die. The question is how bitter they are towards others and the game afterwards. And how quickly will they quit?

Same thing happened in FFXI, ****, any MMO with a moderately punitive system EVER, and the same will happen in FFXIV.


Not really naive at all, fear is a powerful tool and is a susceptible way to focus peoples attention more than what it is at now. If everyone wanted to actually be better for the sake of being better(Without punishments or rewards) I'd agree but the majority of people need some kind of reinforcement or extra push to drive em. The only great thing about what we have now is you can try the impossible or hardest challenges you can get away with without regret cause of limited consequences. There's more than one side to everything and I see that but there would definitely overall be a noticable increase in the performance of people in their respected parties.

Yes there will always be aweful players but that doesn't mean it wouldn't improve them at all on their own relative level. Obviously deaths can't be so extreme they quit but at the same time those people that you speak of aren't the type of people you'd party with in the first place. Hard to avoid in pugs I know but you ultimately choose who you surround yourself with. Go party with some friends or some good linkshell mates :D Getting ***** as you put it is just childish and is never an excuse especially in a videogame. If they're the type of people that get that way cause they're so insecure how does that effect me? Either the party wont last long or they'll be blacklisted or you'll move on if it bothers you that bad. Sorry but not everyone gets bent outta shape over such silly things xD lol
#132 Feb 22 2011 at 1:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Fear is a way to focus peoples attention, but that attention is to avoid persecution and not enjoy things. HItler used fear. Most people want to be better for the sake of being better in the game and the real world. The reinforcement or drive is to be succesful and gain rewards in game and out. If you float thorugh life without soaking in knowledge and applying it, odds are you're not going to be successful. The same concept applies to the videogame world. The reward is better xp per hour, loot, less wasted time, successful victory in bcnms and bosses. Punishment does not increase a player's skill. Knowledge and communication is what makes a group or player better.

The object is to encourage group play. There will always be players with different skill levels. The concept of not allowing players of lesser skill to participate in your group is not just elitist, it is rude. Is it right to disassociate with someone because they don't run, think, or speak as intelligently as you? The underlying problem with harsher penalties that penalize groups is:
Even if you as an individual are perfect. Since this is a multiplayer game, most events will not be succesful or fail on your actions alone. Whether you party exclusively with friends, pugs, guilds, etc. Everything that can goe wrong will usually do so. Power outages, spilt coffee at an important junction, latency, dog chew your index finger off, slow reflexes, etc. If any of those cases happen and it wasn't your fault. But you die or lose an event. Can SE justify making you go earn experience, that you already earned once?

The answer and imo the right way to get players to focus more and enjoy the game is:
Rewarding players for being successful and avoiding death. This can be done multiple ways in addition to what I am listing.

-Increased drop rates
-MP Conservation rates
-Increased damage output capacity
-Bonus rez time reductions
-Gear Repair Discounts
#133 Feb 22 2011 at 1:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Not really naive at all, fear is a powerful tool and is a susceptible way to focus peoples attention more than what it is at now. If everyone wanted to actually be better for the sake of being better(Without punishments or rewards) I'd agree but the majority of people need some kind of reinforcement or extra push to drive em. The only great thing about what we have now is you can try the impossible or hardest challenges you can get away with without regret cause of limited consequences. There's more than one side to everything and I see that but there would definitely overall be a noticable increase in the performance of people in their respected parties.


This is vastly oversimplified explanation of the psychology behind a game like this. In this case, a punitive system is less likely to encourage players to play better, and far more likely to have them become frustrated with the game and the other players. Frankly, FFXIV is not a well-designed game in terms of the relationship between skill and victory/defeat, and that especially will ruin any chances of a punitive system being effective. This makes the difference between terminating the behavior of "playing inefficiently" or "playing the game, period."

To offer a common and simple analogy, expecting a death penalty to improve player performance is like expecting giving students F's to improve performance. There are simply some people that don't care about F's no matter what punishment you can realistically administer, and there are some people who will get D's and F's even if they try to do better. Even worse, in this class/school, much of your grade is essentially random-- you get True/False tests but aren't taught the material on the test. But more importantly in a game like this, it's like being in a class where there are lots of group projects, and everyone shares a grade. The "D" students aren't really going to perform any better, but there's going to be a lot of animosity when punishments/rewards become involved.

Does that illustrate a bit why it's a lot more complicated than basic fear conditioning?
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#134 Feb 22 2011 at 1:41 AM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
Fear is a way to focus peoples attention, but that attention is to avoid persecution and not enjoy things. HItler used fear. Most people want to be better for the sake of being better in the game and the real world. The reinforcement or drive is to be succesful and gain rewards in game and out. If you float thorugh life without soaking in knowledge and applying it, odds are you're not going to be successful. The same concept applies to the videogame world. The reward is better xp per hour, loot, less wasted time, successful victory in bcnms and bosses. Punishment does not increase a player's skill. Knowledge and communication is what makes a group or player better.

The object is to encourage group play. There will always be players with different skill levels. The concept of not allowing players of lesser skill to participate in your group is not just elitist, it is rude. Is it right to disassociate with someone because they don't run, think, or speak as intelligently as you? The underlying problem with harsher penalties that penalize groups is:
Even if you as an individual are perfect. Since this is a multiplayer game, most events will not be succesful or fail on your actions alone. Whether you party exclusively with friends, pugs, guilds, etc. Everything that can goe wrong will usually do so. Power outages, spilt coffee at an important junction, latency, dog chew your index finger off, slow reflexes, etc. If any of those cases happen and it wasn't your fault. But you die or lose an event. Can SE justify making you go earn experience, that you already earned once?

The answer and imo the right way to get players to focus more and enjoy the game is:
Rewarding players for being successful and avoiding death. This can be done multiple ways in addition to what I am listing.

-Increased drop rates
-MP Conservation rates
-Increased damage output capacity
-Bonus rez time reductions
-Gear Repair Discounts


Perfect post! I agree!
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#135 Feb 22 2011 at 1:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:

That's naive. A stronger death system generally just adds frustration to the knowledge that you failed. It might push some players, but not in a way that they want to be pushed.

It should add frustration to the knowledge that you failed. And, that's good if some players are pushed to play harder and better because of this.

Kachi wrote:
Thing is, even the people who ask for a death penalty are asking for one primarily for other people, because as they see it, OTHER players are the ones who suck, need to L2P, and stop being deathly dying noobs. They themselves very rarely, if ever, die. A stronger death penalty will barely affect them at all!


I wouldn't say it is the primary reason, but it is a strong reason. There are several other reasons why there should be some types of penalties outlined in this thread.


Kachi wrote:
But those same people are REALLY upset when they inevitably do die. They especially get awfully ***** with the noobs who made them die by sucking. Guess what? There will always be sh*tty players. There have always been sh*tty players, even in games with the most extremely absurd death penalties. People still die. The question is how bitter they are towards others and the game afterwards. And how quickly will they quit?

Same thing happened in FFXI, ****, any MMO with a moderately punitive system EVER, and the same will happen in FFXIV.


No one is disputing there will always be different levels of skilled players. But yes, when one of these "noobs" makes someone else die because he is "sucking", he will most likely be taught to possibly change strategies, try newly suggesting things, or simply use more of his/her survival traits/actions throughout the course of a battle, which could also be called making him/her a better player.

Who quit ffxi because of the exp penalty on death? We're better off without people that ragequit over such trivial things anyways.
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#136 Feb 22 2011 at 2:49 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It should add frustration to the knowledge that you failed. And, that's good if some players are pushed to play harder and better because of this.


Is it better if some are pushed to play better but most aren't, and instead are only frustrated? Because that's what actually happens. It saddens me to think that people are SO worried about how well other people play that they're willing to sacrifice the majority's enjoyment of the game by adding intentionally aggravating mechanics.

Quote:
No one is disputing there will always be different levels of skilled players. But yes, when one of these "noobs" makes someone else die because he is "sucking", he will most likely be taught to possibly change strategies, try newly suggesting things, or simply use more of his/her survival traits/actions throughout the course of a battle, which could also be called making him/her a better player.


Oh sure, he'll be "taught". It's all gentle guidance up in here! There's never any heated disputes about efficiency, finger-pointing, and general raging. Come on. Play an MMO. This is not what happens.

The ONLY thing that needs to happen for a person to learn from their mistakes is for them to fail. If beyond that they simply don't care, adding a punishment is not likely to make them to care. People simply don't respond well to it. In the cases that most of you are concerned about it is just as likely to lead to reactance.

Quote:
Who quit ffxi because of the exp penalty on death? We're better off without people that ragequit over such trivial things anyways.


Hundreds of thousands of players? It's not all about rage-quitting, not even mostly. People have a bad experience, and never find the motivation to log in again. They eventually get fed up with mechanics that don't add to the challenge but simultaneously hamper the attainment of their goals. Happens literally all the time.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#137 Feb 22 2011 at 6:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok here is how you do it.

Have a check box in your config menu that says "Death Penalty" Once you check it you get a few options: Gear Damage, SP loss, Rez Sickness, and whatever else you guys can come up with. You can check as many or as few as you want.

Now the people that want a death penalty can have it, and have it as harsh as they want it, and the people that do not want one are not forced into one.

Whats wrong with this?

Grothesk
#138 Feb 22 2011 at 7:04 AM Rating: Good
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SP debt games I don't have time for, and would quit. People pushing for sp debt don't have a crafting or gathering class beyond r25, and don't seem to realize what a grind it already is, then have to suffer debt on top of that grind, sorry not interested in the least. Gear damage would be acceptable, as both crafters and gatherers have no gil issues.
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#139 Feb 22 2011 at 8:14 AM Rating: Good
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BadJoRed wrote:
Who quit ffxi because of the exp penalty on death? We're better off without people that ragequit over such trivial things anyways.

Who quit because they were one of the noobs who made a mistake that got others killed and then was attacked and berated for it? I've known people who quit and that was a reason given for it. They weren't scared off or emotionally destroyed by it but it created an unenjoyable experience for them.

I know.. I know.. They need to "suck it up" or "man up" or "good riddance" or whatever but for games that are based on community it's not a good thing.
#140 Feb 22 2011 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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SE is in no position to make the game more of a grind than it already is, 85% of players are casual players, and can't devote 16 hours of their day to a video game. Crafters and Gather's would definately suffer the most on xp debt, the cost alone on goldsmith would be astronimical, to continously have to grind xp loss, when SE specifically stated crafters were going to be a part of raiding. XP debt doesn't fit in to the mechanics of the game.

Tell me how that first walk to camp bluefrog goes, on your crafter, with xp debt. You completely forgot the fact that gathers and crafters are classes, not little side minigames.



Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 1:34pm by Spyrit178
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#141 Feb 22 2011 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
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602 posts
Xandos wrote:
Ok here is how you do it.

Have a check box in your config menu that says "Death Penalty" Once you check it you get a few options: Gear Damage, SP loss, Rez Sickness, and whatever else you guys can come up with. You can check as many or as few as you want.

Now the people that want a death penalty can have it, and have it as harsh as they want it, and the people that do not want one are not forced into one.

Whats wrong with this?

Grothesk


Game developers asking players if they want a death penalty is like a parent asking his little kid if he wants to eat his veggies.
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FFXI: Dashiel. (Asura) Puppetmaster.
FFXIV: Majidah Sihaam. (Besaid)
Marauder, Weaver & Alchemist.

#142 Feb 22 2011 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Ok here is how you do it.

Have a check box in your config menu that says "Death Penalty" Once you check it you get a few options: Gear Damage, SP loss, Rez Sickness, and whatever else you guys can come up with. You can check as many or as few as you want.

Now the people that want a death penalty can have it, and have it as harsh as they want it, and the people that do not want one are not forced into one.

Whats wrong with this?


Considering this is like the 50th death penalty thread I've been involved in, this suggestion comes up pretty frequently. Not surprisingly, the complaint is generally that since the death penalty does the most good for the people who don't actually want a death penalty (lol), there would be no point.

Quote:
Game developers asking players if they want a death penalty is like a parent asking his little kid if he wants to eat his veggies.


Except veggies are actually good for you.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#143 Feb 23 2011 at 5:48 AM Rating: Good
32 posts
Quote:
Xandos wrote:
Ok here is how you do it.

Have a check box in your config menu that says "Death Penalty" Once you check it you get a few options: Gear Damage, SP loss, Rez Sickness, and whatever else you guys can come up with. You can check as many or as few as you want.

Now the people that want a death penalty can have it, and have it as harsh as they want it, and the people that do not want one are not forced into one.

Whats wrong with this?

Grothesk


Game developers asking players if they want a death penalty is like a parent asking his little kid if he wants to eat his veggies.


That was pretty much my point and i wanted to see if anyone got it. If you gave the option to have a death penalty how many people would actually utilize that. I don't think any one REALLY wants a death penalty otherwise they would call it a death incentive.

I have played games with really strict penaltys and some with none other than a respawn timer. The only thing a stiff penalty does is stop me from doing what gets me killed. I am talking about EvE online, I do not pvp unless i am forced to. I don't want what i have worked for for months to just go poof.

So put that into this game. How many SP to lose before the penalty is balanced. 5% of current level, 10%, what about a whole level, or mabey a Physical level? And all because of some dumb mistake, no thanks. Games are supposed to be fun. I for one do not find having to redo several hours worth of work because some idiot in my party casted an AoE spell instead of single target.

The thoughts I want you to take away is that any penalty is not fun, hence the word used. I feel that the rez sickness is enough of a penalty in this game. You can't do something for a few minutes and you may fail your current Leve if time runs out. Anything more is an extreme hindrance.

Grothesk/Xandos
#144 Feb 23 2011 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
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FFXI managed to have over 1 mil subscribers with a pretty harsh death penalty.
People need to stop arguing its going to make players rage quit or refrain from playing.

And saying that the death penalty won't change how the game is played is foolish. I don't think I know anyone who tries to avoid death just out of pride. I'm a pretty **** good player and I act like a suicidal fool constantly on XIV because I know it makes no difference.

Its like unlocking god mode on doom. Its only fun the first five minutes.

And stop saying that leves are timed events so weakness on a timer is enough of a punishment. How often do you finish a leve with less than 5 minutes remaining on the timer? Not often.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 10:51am by MajidahSihaam
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FFXI: Dashiel. (Asura) Puppetmaster.
FFXIV: Majidah Sihaam. (Besaid)
Marauder, Weaver & Alchemist.

#145 Feb 23 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
FFXI managed to have over 1 mil subscribers with a pretty harsh death penalty.
People need to stop arguing its going to make players rage quit or refrain from playing.

And saying that the death penalty won't change how the game is played is foolish. I don't think I know anyone who tries to avoid death just out of pride. I'm a pretty **** good player and I act like a suicidal fool constantly on XIV because I know it makes no difference.

Its like unlocking god mode on doom. Its only fun the first five minutes.

And stop saying that leves are timed events so weakness on a timer is enough of a punishment. How often do you finish a leve with less than 5 minutes remaining on the timer? Not often.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 10:51am by MajidahSihaam


BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT.

Bolded part is only correct if you mean over the course of the game's ENTIRE LIFE that they managed to accrue 1 million subscribers. If you're trying to state that they had 1 million concurrent at one point, you're entirely wrong. They've had 1 million (and then 2 million recently) *characters* existing on active accounts.

Secondly, you aren't a **** good player if you act like a suicidal fool; a good player plays well regardless and doesn't use cheap tactics.
#146 Feb 23 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
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Show of hands, how many crafters would go out into the field with a raid and risk loosing sp? How many would rank up a gathering class knowing you could risk loosing your sp?

As long as crafting and gathering are classes sp debt doesn't fit into the mechanic of the game. It would be completely unbalanced to crafters and gatherers, to the point no one would want to waste time and money on sp debt. Gear damage on the other hand is balanced for all 3 roles.
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#147 Feb 23 2011 at 7:24 PM Rating: Good
2 posts
My two cents:

As a conjurer and former whm, without a death penalty raise just seems useless. Helping people by raising them in 11 was so cool 'cause I knew I had saved them lots exp. Now I just save them from an inconvenience.

People are talking about how having no penalty makes it less frustrating but there's two sides to that coin. It also makes it less exciting.
#148 Feb 23 2011 at 7:28 PM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:
I've read this argument made by people way smarter than me, but I'll try. Adding a harsh death penalty doesn't make the content more challenging, just more frustrating.


This.

Make the content better and harder and we won't even care.
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#149 Feb 23 2011 at 8:45 PM Rating: Decent
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602 posts
Spyrit178 wrote:
Show of hands, how many crafters would go out into the field with a raid and risk loosing sp? How many would rank up a gathering class knowing you could risk loosing your sp?

As long as crafting and gathering are classes sp debt doesn't fit into the mechanic of the game. It would be completely unbalanced to crafters and gatherers, to the point no one would want to waste time and money on sp debt. Gear damage on the other hand is balanced for all 3 roles.


I don't see the lack of balance here. In XI mining required a lot of sneaking around. DoL could hire DoW to clean the palce for a few hours and so on in any case.

TheRealDestian wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
I've read this argument made by people way smarter than me, but I'll try. Adding a harsh death penalty doesn't make the content more challenging, just more frustrating.


This.

Make the content better and harder and we won't even care.


I'm sorry but this isn't how it works. And no one is saying it will suddenly become more challenging. What we are saying is that if there were a death penalty, then you'd play differently. You'd care more about everything you do. You'd care to find a safespot to afk. You'd care to stay alive even if you knew your friends could kill the thing after you go down.

In other words, everything would be more involving.

And I don't think anyone dies often enough to claim a death penalty would take too much of a dent into their SP. (aside from hate needing to be reworked because atm it makes no sense).

Currently this game is played as: Doesn't matter if I die as long as so does the mob.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 9:52pm by MajidahSihaam

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 9:59pm by MajidahSihaam
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FFXI: Dashiel. (Asura) Puppetmaster.
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Marauder, Weaver & Alchemist.

#150 Feb 23 2011 at 9:59 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Its like unlocking god mode on doom. Its only fun the first five minutes.


while most people would agree with this (technically an opinion). that is a cheat so you never die, in the normal game if you die you only go back a few minuets to a save/check point(I never really played doom much so I'm going off other FPS like halo/half life) and to say none of those games r fun because they need more penalties for dying is ludicrous.
and if you look at other FF titles they only have u go back to a save point.

switching gears u also say
Quote:
And I don't think anyone dies often enough to claim a death penalty would take too much of a dent into their SP.

but there were times in FF xi that i would get on, look for group for 2 hours, party for a while, die (through no fault of my own), the party breaks up, and I end up with NEGATIVE exp for the day.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 11:02pm by exequtor100
#151 Feb 23 2011 at 10:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
FFXI managed to have over 1 mil subscribers with a pretty harsh death penalty.


FFXI managed to be moderately successful in spite of a pretty harsh death penalty, but at a time when even harsher death penalties were the norm, and even then... they ultimately lost a lot of subscribers because of the harsh death penalty.

Quote:
And saying that the death penalty won't change how the game is played is foolish. I don't think I know anyone who tries to avoid death just out of pride. I'm a pretty **** good player and I act like a suicidal fool constantly on XIV because I know it makes no difference.


Oh, it would change the way the game is played. It just wouldn't make the game any BETTER. That's the issue, isn't it?
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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