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#1 Feb 17 2011 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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The bonus point allotment system was intended to be a means by which players could customize their character's individuality. The free distribution of attribute points has given rise to certain problems, however, such as compatibility issues with the Armoury system, and the lowered effectiveness of the attributes themselves. In particular, this lowered effectiveness of attributes also extends its influence to items, and is therefore something that we feel must be rectified. To do so, we are currently looking into the following two options:

1. Removal of the bonus point system, and the addition of automatic allotment of attribute points based on class
2. Removal of physical levels, and the addition of class-specific allotment of attribute points for each class based on rank.


Can someone explain what they mean by #1 and #2 to me please? I woke up way too early today and nothing seems to be getting through.
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#2 Feb 17 2011 at 5:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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1) they automatically give you stats
2) they give you skill points to allot for each job based on rank - which are then saved while physical level gets the can


That is how I read it.
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#3 Feb 17 2011 at 5:18 PM Rating: Default
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Sure, let me put it in laymen's terms:

1. Removal of the bonus point system, and the addition of automatic allotment of attribute points based on class
2. Removal of physical levels, and the addition of class-specific allotment of attribute points for each class based on rank.

Not sure how to get much easier to understand than what they wrote dude.
#4 Feb 17 2011 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
Sure, let me put it in laymen's terms:

1. Removal of the bonus point system, and the addition of automatic allotment of attribute points based on class
2. Removal of physical levels, and the addition of class-specific allotment of attribute points for each class based on rank.

Not sure how to get much easier to understand than what they wrote dude.


This is in Laymen's terms? lol, you just confused me more but I understand it now, thanks. I think I'm gonna go with #1, what did you guys go with?
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#5 Feb 17 2011 at 5:23 PM Rating: Decent
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My interpretation of it is as follows:

#1- Points will be automatically applied to the class you are raising, there will not be bonus attributes to assign as you see fit

#2- attributes are a set value for each class (at each level) and switching to that class switches your attributes appropriately

Because they both seemed similar to me, I figured that #1 means you gain attributes on that class, and you keep them. For example, if I raise Archer, let's say I get a bunch of +str and +dex, when I switch to weaver, I will have the same attributes I had on Archer (sort of like how it is now, only I didn't pick where to put those points). And #2 means if I switch to weaver, I will have whatever stats a level 12 weaver would have, regardless of how high level my Archer is.
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#6 Feb 17 2011 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=1297984460110618996&page=1

Blarg!

The first option, simply put, is the removal of customization in place of automatic stats like we had in XI. In other words you can't do **** to change them.

Edited, Feb 17th 2011 6:30pm by CupDeNoodles
#7 Feb 17 2011 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Rekia wrote:
My interpretation of it is as follows:

#1- Points will be automatically applied to the class you are raising, there will not be bonus attributes to assign as you see fit

#2- attributes are a set value for each class (at each level) and switching to that class switches your attributes appropriately

Because they both seemed similar to me, I figured that #1 means you gain attributes on that class, and you keep them. For example, if I raise Archer, let's say I get a bunch of +str and +dex, when I switch to weaver, I will have the same attributes I had on Archer (sort of like how it is now, only I didn't pick where to put those points). And #2 means if I switch to weaver, I will have whatever stats a level 12 weaver would have, regardless of how high level my Archer is.


There is no way that's what they mean and if they do then that's just dumb. Its oddly worded imo but I hope they don't mean what you think they mean :P.
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#8 Feb 17 2011 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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Well I probably misunderstood #2, the poster above me makes more sense. But I don't think it's that bad, they really need to do something with the current attribute system. I hate that I can't easily reassign my points to be the best at the class I want to play.
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#9 Feb 17 2011 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good
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You missed #3.

"leave it as it is"

I went with that.

If I want to tank on my Conjurer, in the current system I CAN. Go messing with crap, and you take away the flexibility of the system.

If I want to spec so that I can backup heal on my lancer, I can

Don't force players into pre-defined roles. Bad idea.

Edited, Feb 17th 2011 6:34pm by DoctorMog
#10 Feb 17 2011 at 5:36 PM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
You missed #3.

"leave it as it is"

I went with that.

If I want to tank on my Conjurer, in the current system I CAN. Go messing with crap, and you take away the flexibility of the system.

If I want to spec so that I can backup heal on my lancer, I can

Don't force players into pre-defined roles. Bad idea.

Edited, Feb 17th 2011 6:34pm by DoctorMog


Exactly! They aim to rework the whole **** system when simply adding an NPC somewhere to let you rearrange your stats would make everything better.

Why anyone would vote for option #1 and essentially end up making every class cookie cutter is beyond me.
#11 Feb 17 2011 at 5:44 PM Rating: Decent
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CupDeNoodles wrote:
DoctorMog wrote:
You missed #3.

"leave it as it is"

I went with that.

If I want to tank on my Conjurer, in the current system I CAN. Go messing with crap, and you take away the flexibility of the system.

If I want to spec so that I can backup heal on my lancer, I can

Don't force players into pre-defined roles. Bad idea.

Edited, Feb 17th 2011 6:34pm by DoctorMog


Exactly! They aim to rework the whole **** system when simply adding an NPC somewhere to let you rearrange your stats would make everything better.

Why anyone would vote for option #1 and essentially end up making every class cookie cutter is beyond me.


Meh, obviously the customization didn't save the game, if that was the case the game wouldn't be on life support. I just would rather cookie cutter classes in place with a good party system over a half ***'d one with a lot of customization - I don't see the system being this flexible AND playing out well except that people will eventually fill those cookie cutter roles that they make up anyway...just as people do for NM fights already.

And they don't plan on re-working the entire system only because of allocation, but they plan to rework it to meld it into whatever battle system changes we're going to see and those can be major.

Edited, Feb 17th 2011 6:45pm by SolidMack

Edited, Feb 17th 2011 6:46pm by SolidMack
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#12 Feb 17 2011 at 5:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, the other day I took my conjurer out to The Great Buffalo and tanked it like a boss lol.

Just an example of what CAN be done, imagine when we have more abilities from more classes at 50.

No way they should remove the point system!

If you want cookie cutter, build your own character that way. Don't take it away from the people who like the flexibility.

Edited, Feb 17th 2011 6:46pm by DoctorMog
#13 Feb 17 2011 at 6:34 PM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
Yeah, the other day I took my conjurer out to The Great Buffalo and tanked it like a boss lol.

Just an example of what CAN be done, imagine when we have more abilities from more classes at 50.

No way they should remove the point system!

If you want cookie cutter, build your own character that way. Don't take it away from the people who like the flexibility.

Edited, Feb 17th 2011 6:46pm by DoctorMog



Agreed, it adds more builds/customization. I would however like each point spent to "weigh" more. I don't feel as though the stat points have a large enough impact relative to rank.

Edited, Feb 17th 2011 7:35pm by chopstx
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#14 Feb 17 2011 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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this lowered effectiveness of attributes also extends its influence to items, and is therefore something that we feel must be rectified.


Why not change the stats on items?
#15 Feb 17 2011 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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I think that depends on how much balancing they feel is needed. If you have to increase the stats on items to the point where your own attribute points have become insignificant, then why even allow for point distribution? You now would have a system where your class is completely defined by the gear you wear. Is that good or bad? I think that's what they have in mind when asking this question.
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#16 Feb 18 2011 at 4:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Both of the options in the poll are quite similar. The only practical difference is that with #1 you can be strictly stronger/weaker than another player of the same class with the same rank thanks to a higher/lower physical level. I think that is completely unnecessary and the only metric we need to determine character base stats is class rank.

I think flexibility should be gained with gear, not stat point allocation. You want to tank with your CON? Get that +defense enchanted robe and pull out that shield. This will allow for a ton of sidegrades, keeping gear relevant even as new content is added to the game.

Edited, Feb 18th 2011 5:39am by Omena
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#17 Feb 18 2011 at 5:45 AM Rating: Good
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IMO this is not a good thing. If a CON or THM can tank an end game NM like a boss then it would be pointless to level a GLA. Such flexibility will result in any class being able to do anything. No defined class role is the problem we are having.
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#18 Feb 18 2011 at 7:02 AM Rating: Good
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This cater to the masses any job can do anything and all classes need to be able to solo to 50 is what ruined FFXIV for launch. This approach is what made them:

1.have no gear restrictions, any job can wear any item at any lvl with minimal penalty
2.any class can equip any skill at any lvl(assumed they have it available) [only a select few skills are not cross class usable]
3.created a storyline where you can pretty much solo the whole thing(no difficulty or team up)
4.created a dumb ars battle regimen system that is "Flexible" for any class, no its not flexible its cumbersome and it makes no sense that you can BR on any job combo with any skills.
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#19 Feb 18 2011 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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chopstx wrote:
Agreed, it adds more builds/customization. I would however like each point spent to "weigh" more. I don't feel as though the stat points have a large enough impact relative to rank.


True, stats dont have enough of an effect on you performance,
bf's PUG maxed str my CON 25 str and we hit the same it's not right!

I would like to see stats on gear have more effect too!

I chose option 2,
I understood it as
opp 1 meant - as a R12 L50 you get the full stats points of a level 50 automaticaly distributed to you
opp 2 - as on R12 you receive the stats equivilant to a R12 and relevant to your class

I dont agree with having a Physical Level and a Rank, as a R12 L50 I have a very unfair advantage on a R12 L15 for example, when i started i could go and fight marmots outside of Ul'dah and have to think about it, only having 250 hp 50 mp a few touch and go fights was fun. But now because i'm L50 marmots posse no threat at all 1k hp plenty of mp and high level ws to one shot! >< no fun ><
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#20 Feb 18 2011 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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Favabean wrote:
IMO this is not a good thing. If a CON or THM can tank an end game NM like a boss then it would be pointless to level a GLA. Such flexibility will result in any class being able to do anything. No defined class role is the problem we are having.


I had to have Gladiator, MRD and PUG at nearly 40 to accomplish it.

It's not pointless because a fresh 50 CON couldn't do it without having leveled GLD and PUG.
Also, Gladiator is still more effective at it and always will be because of their HP pool and affinity with defensive skills.

This system promotes flexibility, and even when a player has ALL jobs at 50, they will still change classes on different fights because of Affinity.

Don't forget that cooldowns are doubled when not the class you learned the skill on, and having all jobs at 50 doesn't mean every skill is equally effective on every job once you learn the skill. Reduced effect of things like accuracy, damage, cooldown, all make being on the CORRECT class more effective. Because of diminished effects of skills cross class, it makes each class "more" effective with the skills they innately learn. Proving that each class is in fact unique. Perhaps not in the "final fantasy" style unique many want, but unique in the respect that they are more effective with their own set of skills, rather than using skills cross class.



Edited, Feb 18th 2011 7:25pm by DoctorMog
#21 Feb 20 2011 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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Don't forget that cooldowns are doubled when not the class you learned the skill on, and having all jobs at 50 doesn't mean every skill is equally effective on every job once you learn the skill. Reduced effect of things like accuracy, damage, cooldown, all make being on the CORRECT class more effective. Because of diminished effects of skills cross class, it makes each class "more" effective with the skills they innately learn. Proving that each class is in fact unique. Perhaps not in the "final fantasy" style unique many want, but unique in the respect that they are more effective with their own set of skills, rather than using skills cross class.

I'd like to see a system where classes are unique because of more than different cooldown timers.
#22 Feb 20 2011 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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Caesura wrote:
Quote:
Don't forget that cooldowns are doubled when not the class you learned the skill on, and having all jobs at 50 doesn't mean every skill is equally effective on every job once you learn the skill. Reduced effect of things like accuracy, damage, cooldown, all make being on the CORRECT class more effective. Because of diminished effects of skills cross class, it makes each class "more" effective with the skills they innately learn. Proving that each class is in fact unique. Perhaps not in the "final fantasy" style unique many want, but unique in the respect that they are more effective with their own set of skills, rather than using skills cross class.

I'd like to see a system where classes are unique because of more than different cooldown timers.



I'd like a game where I build a character not level a class.
#23 Feb 20 2011 at 2:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Seikninkuru wrote:
Caesura wrote:
Quote:
Don't forget that cooldowns are doubled when not the class you learned the skill on, and having all jobs at 50 doesn't mean every skill is equally effective on every job once you learn the skill. Reduced effect of things like accuracy, damage, cooldown, all make being on the CORRECT class more effective. Because of diminished effects of skills cross class, it makes each class "more" effective with the skills they innately learn. Proving that each class is in fact unique. Perhaps not in the "final fantasy" style unique many want, but unique in the respect that they are more effective with their own set of skills, rather than using skills cross class.

I'd like to see a system where classes are unique because of more than different cooldown timers.



I'd like a game where I build a character not level a class.


Well as it sits this game isn't that even.
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#24 Feb 20 2011 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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SolidMack wrote:
Seikninkuru wrote:
Caesura wrote:

I'd like to see a system where classes are unique because of more than different cooldown timers.



I'd like a game where I build a character not level a class.


Well as it sits this game isn't that even.


That's how I'm playing it.

Edited, Feb 20th 2011 3:38pm by ArchBlegan
#25 Feb 20 2011 at 2:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't understand... To all the people who don't want the system to change, what exactly is wrong with option #2?

You get to keep your attribute point customizability... You just get to do it on a per class basis instead of 1 setup for all classes. Nothing will stop you from turning your Conjurer into a tank if you want to. But it won't mean all your other classes will be spec'ed towards tanking as well. It'll save the hassle of having to re-assign points with the lenghty timers every time you switch class. I don't see them claiming anywhere that once the points are allocated it will be permanent under such a system either. It would go a long way towards making classes a bit more unique, without taking away all the control you have over your statistical growth.

Unless I'm missing something here?

And I do agree they need to make the stats have more weight behind them. I don't see the point of handing out hundreds of them when they barely make a difference to begin with.

Edited, Feb 20th 2011 3:58pm by Bruknarr
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#26 Feb 20 2011 at 7:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I really don't like option #2. It just doesn't seem "Final Fantasy"-like to me.

I like the concept of levels, and I like the concept of a physical level. But I still think S-E shot themselves in the foot by making it too customizable, and Option #2 will pretty much keep that in place, but relevant to class rank.

I've posted this elsewhere as well, but I'd rather keep the class rank/EXP system as is (or go with option 1) and maybe introduce a Freelancer class (FFIII/FFV) for people who like free customization. That way we can have a mix of defined roles, or play however way we want to and equip a wide range of abilities from other classes we have leveled if we choose to be by ourselves or in a small group with friends and not be hindered by forced class stats (option 1), or forcing us to completely start over and disregard other classes (besides abilities) we have leveled if we decide to rank up a new class (option 2).

I liked the fact that I felt like my progress from crafting or leveling other jobs contributed to something as a whole, and with option 2, I feel like taking that away will take away an aspect of accomplishment for the game. (At least to me. Your views may vary.)



Edited, Feb 20th 2011 5:15pm by UltKnightGrover
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#27 Feb 20 2011 at 9:51 PM Rating: Good
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1. Won't be able to assign points to the physical stat window. When you level, stats are assigned automatically, appropriate to the class you are level'n. Eg. you level fisherman. more points will go into dex and piety as those are the strong point to a good fisher. eg. you level up Paladin, more point will be auto assigned to vit, hp, int some str.
This choice is a keen to FFXI level stat system


2. This choice will remove the physical level sheet we are currently able to open and allocate points too as we level, permanently. And instead we get to choose where our points go, for each class we are level'n, on a separate level.(independently). So say I have War 12, Pal 24, Pug 16, Carpenter 34. Each of them have their own separate stat sheet that I can assign points to, as I level each one independantly.

Now with both of these choices, which I haven't seen many people bring up, is that our starting race that we choose at start will probably matter now. Since they all have different starting stats. This is where yoshi-p is smart, because some of use, who are min/max'ers are going to re-roll for that optimum build that will be shown come level cap and better to start over now than regret it 2years from now..

Edited, Feb 20th 2011 10:54pm by Rustyshield
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#28 Feb 20 2011 at 10:53 PM Rating: Good
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SolidMack wrote:
Meh, obviously the customization didn't save the game, if that was the case the game wouldn't be on life support. I just would rather cookie cutter classes in place with a good party system over a half ***'d one with a lot of customization - I don't see the system being this flexible AND playing out well except that people will eventually fill those cookie cutter roles that they make up anyway...just as people do for NM fights already.

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This. Perhaps needless to say, I went with number one when I answered.
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#29 Feb 21 2011 at 10:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I went with option 2 tbh cause I prefer flexibility and customization. Is it the best option they offered? no!... Why not? ...simple... cause they can implement them BOTH into the game np. These are the kinda decisions players need for FF to grow to 'maturity'. People have this mindset where things have to be split down the middle especially in gaming. Devs don't help these issues either so what I'm really trying to get it is, what would be so bad in implementing a system with the option to auto stat your characters when they rank up?

This leaves depth and customization to the people who want or need it. I know you can't please everyone but you can get close! If you want to stat your own character all you would have to do is turn auto-stating off just like implementing quest markers above npc heads... Implement it but also make sure you include an option to turn it off for those players that don't want or need it. Really wish the poll had an option for 1 AND 2 to be implemented, other games have implemented such things and have left the choice to the individual player so that it attracts not only more people but makes it more fun for the person who's actually playing!

Edited, Feb 21st 2011 11:06pm by MishaNevarian
#30 Feb 23 2011 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
If I want to tank on my Conjurer, in the current system I CAN. Go messing with crap, and you take away the flexibility of the system.


:S

Really?

If something would bother me, this would be it. No, im not trying to steal your fun tanking as a Con, but it doesn't seem appealing to me that every class can tank with the proper cross-class skills equipped and attained. And/or the proper stats boosted up to the point where this would become possible. I sincerely hope this will be change to a more FFXI-esque style of classes, but not as limiting. Middle of the road please SE!

I prefer a more fun way of doing party stuff then FFXI, I really hated the "Sorry, we dont need [your job] for this event." But this is a bit too much for my taste, I really like the job/class system from the offline and online Final Fantasies. By removing the dedicated job system from a Final Fantasy title, it loses the feeling that the FF trademark stands for. This is why I hated FFXIII and to some minor degree also FFXII. Maybe I'm being too nostalgic and this is the direction the series should be following, to be able to play all characters in the same way, without too much to differentiate them from any other. If they keep that current course, I'm afraid I'm out as far as FFXIV concerns.

Well, still plenty of time to watch from the sideline I say :P Crossing my fingers! x(>_<)x
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