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POLL: Auto-Attack vs. Push-To-AttackFollow

#1 Feb 17 2011 at 5:20 PM Rating: Good
Which of the following would you prefer?
Auto-Attack (Attacks automatically, replacing your normal attack, with a built-in delay):237 (71.6%)
Push-To-Attack (Current system):71 (21.5%)
Choice 3 (Added for Mikhalia's pleasure.):23 (6.9%)
Total:331


Sorry Mikhalia, I am limiting it to 3, I'd like to keep this train on the tracks.

Edited, Feb 17th 2011 6:20pm by StateAlchemist2
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#2 Feb 17 2011 at 6:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Should be optional to switch the feature. To be honest, as a tank, my basic attacks are worthless. I spend all stamina on shield skills and spamming Phalanx. I attack randomly using 1/3 my stamina to do an amazing 43 damage against bosses. It would be even better if combat were somehow balanced so your auto-attack took 0 stamina to execute.

Edited, Feb 17th 2011 7:24pm by Jamaz
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#3 Feb 17 2011 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
Sorry Mikhalia, I am limiting it to 3, I'd like to keep this train on the tracks.


I voted one of the first two choices (I'm such a rebel).

Although honestly, I would prefer a combination; a basic autoattack, but with added abilities. For each class, remove whatever 1 is. 1 is now your autoattack. Keep the rest of your abilities and hit them as you please.
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#4 Feb 17 2011 at 7:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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You should have had a 3rd option of "I don't really care either way". To be honest I don't mind having manual attack, and I wouldn't mind having an auto-attack. I voted for 1, because it does make it much more difficult to talk during combat. Just so long as we don't have: Engage > Go make sandwich > Come back for Weaponskill/Job Ability (which I doubt would happen again) then i'm personally fine either way.
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#5 Feb 17 2011 at 7:34 PM Rating: Decent
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My concern is how this will impact the ATB battle system. If your automatically attacking I wonder how the gauge will work.

Still I want an auto attack, for latency issues, and so your char can auto attack if you get agro while offline.
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#6 Feb 17 2011 at 7:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ipwnrice wrote:
You should have had a 3rd option of "I don't really care either way". To be honest I don't mind having manual attack, and I wouldn't mind having an auto-attack. I voted for 1, because it does make it much more difficult to talk during combat. Just so long as we don't have: Engage > Go make sandwich > Come back for Weaponskill/Job Ability (which I doubt would happen again) then i'm personally fine either way.


I voted number 1 for the exact same reason. I don't really care all that much either way, but I've been leaning towards auto attack just so I can talk to people while fighting stuff. Next on the list: talking to people while synthing!
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#7 Feb 17 2011 at 7:36 PM Rating: Good
I would like an option to auto-standard during synthesis. Yes, please.
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#8 Feb 17 2011 at 7:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
I would like an option to auto-standard during synthesis. Yes, please.


So a bot? he he or was that the intended joke?
#9 Feb 17 2011 at 7:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
I would like an option to auto-standard during synthesis. Yes, please.


You know, to be fair...

If they're going to say "crafters are classes on the same level as combatants"

And they're going to say "combat classes get auto attack"

Then the logic follows that shouldn't DoM get an auto-cast spell (or auto wand or whatever) and DoH get an auto standard... DoL should get something too but I can't think of an equivalent.
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#10 Feb 17 2011 at 8:01 PM Rating: Decent
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auto attack would be great, there is a line between mmorpg and a simulation game, i think auto attack is more of a simulation thing.
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#11 Feb 17 2011 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
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A few of my 400 characters:

"All actions should be active. Have basic attacks be more meaningful: higher attack and longer cool-down. Auto-attack is a poor way to avoid spam."

I am hoping the development team will come up with a more creative way to bring us out of the 1,1,1,1,1 spam. Above is just one simple example of how we can accomplish it. If I were given more words I might have said you could also add timing, positioning, and other tactics that effect accuracy and damage to make players think more carefully about their basic attacks.
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#12 Feb 17 2011 at 8:11 PM Rating: Good
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Auto-attack. Often I click my attack button a few times but it only triggers once, even though I have the stamina. Also, I can't talk to anyone while I fight - I see /tells go by and I can't respond to them because if I stop clicking I'll start getting owned. I want auto-attack for the basic fight, like whoever said 1 is now you're auto-attack and you still have to click for other abilities. That's what I want. That's what I've always wanted. Clicking the standard attack over and over is not fun and does not add ANYTHING to the game. There's no more skill/reward/immersion/anything for having to click my regular attack over and over in battle. All of the other abilities I'm fine with triggering manually, but each classes basic attack should be auto. However, I also think Archers should have a knife/dagger.
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#13 Feb 17 2011 at 8:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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MCraine wrote:
Auto-attack. Often I click my attack button a few times but it only triggers once, even though I have the stamina. Also, I can't talk to anyone while I fight - I see /tells go by and I can't respond to them because if I stop clicking I'll start getting owned. I want auto-attack for the basic fight, like whoever said 1 is now you're auto-attack and you still have to click for other abilities. That's what I want. That's what I've always wanted. Clicking the standard attack over and over is not fun and does not add ANYTHING to the game. There's no more skill/reward/immersion/anything for having to click my regular attack over and over in battle. All of the other abilities I'm fine with triggering manually, but each classes basic attack should be auto. However, I also think Archers should have a knife/dagger.


Actually that's what Champion's Online does and it works great. Their combat system is actually pretty fun. There are predefined classes if you want, but you can also choose to just take whatever skill you want from any class and make your own custom class. I mean it's a little more complicated than that, like you need to be the right level, but it's a basic explanation. Your first attack is an "energy builder" attack (similar to TP building I would think) and just pressing this button once toggles it on or off, like an auto attack, only it can be ranged or melee, physical damage or magical damage. There are all different forms of energy builder attacks (just like our default 1 attacks basically). All your other attacks cost energy to perform and are more meaningful.

I wouldn't mind a system like that. There are a lot of things about the skills and abilities I like, but I wouldn't mind a change to them terribly either.
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#14 Feb 17 2011 at 9:27 PM Rating: Decent
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To be honest I would love an auto attack for basic attack and while they are at it get rid of stamina and just use the cool down timers on abilities. I don't get why people think that by adding an auto attack all of a sudden the game will become super easy and you can just go afk or something while the fight is going on or that the auto attack will use all your abilities and weaponskill's and stuff like that so, because that isn't going to happen.

There are and always will be boring fights in the game where you can just mash basic attack so what difference does it make if you have to hit 1,1,1,1,1 or if the game does it for you. However with the auto attack it will allow me more time to concentrate on using my abilities and weaponskills as I won't have to worry about hitting basic attack to build my TP and as I play with a controller it will give me the time I need to scoot around my bar to get to my abilities.

Another big reason why I want auto attack is as someone mentioned, maybe we will actually be able to have a conversation in our parties now. As it is now it is very difficult to type a message out during battle as if you try to do so you stop everything while you do. Add to the fact that grind parties don't really have static camps and you are constantly on the move over terrain which the slightest little drop will stop you in your tracks and /follow seems to be a little laggy so you often end up stuck on something, it is very difficult to have a chat during a party. The social aspect of a MMO is something I enjoy, I like to meet new people and have a chat but it does seem like a bit of a chore to do so in FFXIV.
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#15 Feb 17 2011 at 9:51 PM Rating: Decent
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I would like it if they kept the current system with tweaks.

My tweak would be like this:

Pugilist presses heavy strike, heavy strike is the now set as auto attack, and will keep executing on it's set delay, not consuming stamina.

Pugilist changes to using light strike, which now executes as auto attack, on it's own separate delay.

Now obviously this would need tweaking for certain regular attacks, like pugilists Flurry is only usable after a heavy strike or flurry. I'm not sure how those type of things would work but it would be an easy way to add auto attack without changing the system drastically or being too similar to other mmos (FFXI)
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#16 Feb 17 2011 at 9:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Don't really matter to me but I don't see why so many people I talk to are against auto attack. As if spamming 11111111 is strategic or adds to the fun factor. I rather spend my time communicating with my party members and managing all my abilities and timers, instead of having to constantly manually use a normal attack.
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#17 Feb 17 2011 at 10:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Scape13 wrote:
Don't really matter to me but I don't see why so many people I talk to are against auto attack. As if spamming 11111111 is strategic or adds to the fun factor. I rather spend my time communicating with my party members and managing all my abilities and timers, instead of having to constantly manually use a normal attack.


If you're spamming 11111111 you're doing it wrong.

As I already said, you have at least 2 different normal attacks per class, plus several abilities that boost tp generation and lots of ws; usually i start the fight boosting myself, then 2 or 3 normal attacks (that are not always the same, it depends on the mobs, on the fact that i need TP or not and on my position), then a weapon skill (some times even 2 in a row) and this is only for easy guildleves. With NMs is totally different, i use abilities many more times, i use normal attacks battle regimens followed by weapon skills battle regimens and it isn't spammy at all, indeed there are several times when we need to stop attacking and gain tp only via abilities in order to avoid killing the NM before he's incapacitated.

I'm sorry but i really can't see where the battle system is spammy. Adding an auto attack feature would make impossible to use all the strategies i listed and THEN the battle system would be a slow spam of weapon skills
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#18 Feb 17 2011 at 10:27 PM Rating: Decent
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AlexiaKidd wrote:
To be honest I would love an auto attack for basic attack and while they are at it get rid of stamina and just use the cool down timers on abilities. I don't get why people think that by adding an auto attack all of a sudden the game will become super easy and you can just go afk or something while the fight is going on or that the auto attack will use all your abilities and weaponskill's and stuff like that so, because that isn't going to happen.

There are and always will be boring fights in the game where you can just mash basic attack so what difference does it make if you have to hit 1,1,1,1,1 or if the game does it for you. However with the auto attack it will allow me more time to concentrate on using my abilities and weaponskills as I won't have to worry about hitting basic attack to build my TP and as I play with a controller it will give me the time I need to scoot around my bar to get to my abilities.

Another big reason why I want auto attack is as someone mentioned, maybe we will actually be able to have a conversation in our parties now. As it is now it is very difficult to type a message out during battle as if you try to do so you stop everything while you do. Add to the fact that grind parties don't really have static camps and you are constantly on the move over terrain which the slightest little drop will stop you in your tracks and /follow seems to be a little laggy so you often end up stuck on something, it is very difficult to have a chat during a party. The social aspect of a MMO is something I enjoy, I like to meet new people and have a chat but it does seem like a bit of a chore to do so in FFXIV.


This.
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#19 Feb 17 2011 at 11:41 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
To be honest I would love an auto attack for basic attack and while they are at it get rid of stamina and just use the cool down timers on abilities. I don't get why people think that by adding an auto attack all of a sudden the game will become super easy and you can just go afk or something while the fight is going on or that the auto attack will use all your abilities and weaponskill's and stuff like that so, because that isn't going to happen.

There are and always will be boring fights in the game where you can just mash basic attack so what difference does it make if you have to hit 1,1,1,1,1 or if the game does it for you. However with the auto attack it will allow me more time to concentrate on using my abilities and weaponskills as I won't have to worry about hitting basic attack to build my TP and as I play with a controller it will give me the time I need to scoot around my bar to get to my abilities.

Another big reason why I want auto attack is as someone mentioned, maybe we will actually be able to have a conversation in our parties now. As it is now it is very difficult to type a message out during battle as if you try to do so you stop everything while you do. Add to the fact that grind parties don't really have static camps and you are constantly on the move over terrain which the slightest little drop will stop you in your tracks and /follow seems to be a little laggy so you often end up stuck on something, it is very difficult to have a chat during a party. The social aspect of a MMO is something I enjoy, I like to meet new people and have a chat but it does seem like a bit of a chore to do so in FFXIV.


DOUBLE this!

In my Players' Poll submission, I actually wrote in as a suggestion to revise or remove the stamina bar. This game needs auto attack, and with auto attack in place, I fail to see how the stamina bar is even useful. Seems like they just need to slow down the rate of TP gain a bit.
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#20 Feb 18 2011 at 12:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not sure if I am alone on this, but I like the stamina bar. Though it needs some fixing, as stamina being wiped out randomly when engaging a mob is pretty annoying.

Not sure how I feel about auto attack.
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#21 Feb 18 2011 at 12:12 AM Rating: Decent
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I might be starting a huge flame, but if you don't like the the lack of auto attack AND the stamina bar basically you don't like the core of FFXIV so why the **** are you playing this game?
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#22 Feb 18 2011 at 12:23 AM Rating: Excellent
First of all, I was among the many who were willing to give 1111111111111111 mashing a chance when this game started. It's not that I don't like battles, it's just that auto attack would make the battle system much better. With auto attack though, the purpose of the stamina bar seems greatly diminished... although I suppose is still serves a purpose if SE doesn't tinker with the fast rate at which we gain TP.

Secondly, I wouldn't go so far to say that 1111111111111 mashing and the stamina bar are the core elements of FFXIV. I think the core system is the armory concept, which I hope won't be changing anytime soon.
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#23 Feb 18 2011 at 12:31 AM Rating: Good
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Like I said in the other thread, I'm worried about how they'll implement Auto-attack.

It seems like they'll have to completely redo the battle system if they do add it in, and I'm not sure I really want that.
Looking back on it, I really don't use basic attacks that much. I use a different ability every three hits or so.
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#24 Feb 18 2011 at 12:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
First of all, I was among the many who were willing to give 1111111111111111 mashing a chance when this game started. It's not that I don't like battles, it's just that auto attack would make the battle system much better. With auto attack though, the purpose of the stamina bar seems greatly diminished... although I suppose is still serves a purpose if SE doesn't tinker with the fast rate at which we gain TP.

Secondly, I wouldn't go so far to say that 1111111111111 mashing and the stamina bar are the core elements of FFXIV. I think the core system is the armory concept, which I hope won't be changing anytime soon.


alcide wrote:

If you're spamming 11111111 you're doing it wrong.

As I already said, you have at least 2 different normal attacks per class, plus several abilities that boost tp generation and lots of ws; usually i start the fight boosting myself, then 2 or 3 normal attacks (that are not always the same, it depends on the mobs, on the fact that i need TP or not and on my position), then a weapon skill (some times even 2 in a row) and this is only for easy guildleves. With NMs is totally different, i use abilities many more times, i use normal attacks battle regimens followed by weapon skills battle regimens and it isn't spammy at all, indeed there are several times when we need to stop attacking and gain tp only via abilities in order to avoid killing the NM before he's incapacitated.

I'm sorry but i really can't see where the battle system is spammy. Adding an auto attack feature would make impossible to use all the strategies i listed and THEN the battle system would be a slow spam of weapon skills


And this makes it the third time I write this, anyone else wants to talk about spamming 1111111111 again?
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#25 Feb 18 2011 at 12:50 AM Rating: Excellent
All I've done so far is fight normal mobs. I use weaponskills occasionally, but often it just seems more efficient to keep hitting 1... less delay, and I don't have to wonder whether my attack will proc. Plus, damage numbers seem pretty comparable, and the mob always dies fairly quickly.

I really, really miss the social aspect of gaming, being able to chat with party members and ls mates while fighting. Later on, when we get more party-based content, the current battle system does not at all lend itself to typing commands to other party members, either... which will get very annoying for me, because I can't use voice chat.

If anything, implementing auto attack will open up more opportunities for using special abilities without sacrificing the social aspects of the game.
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#26 Feb 18 2011 at 1:45 AM Rating: Good
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If the battle system is the core reason to play the game and anyone who doesn't like it shouldn't be playing, than I wonder what the point of modern MMOs are. I want FFXIV to be an enjoyable experience because I want to experience a WORLD and the many quests and stories that can take place within it (which SE has always been good at supplying) while meeting people with whom I can enjoy this content. The battle system is only necessary because without having to level in order to be able to tackle and/or unlock more of the content, the game would be quite boring and straight forward. I wouldn't MIND an experience in which the only fighting necessary was that which progressed a specific element of a quest or storyline, it just likely wouldn't be a very popular game. If I don't like the battle system in XIV and that means you can't see any reason for me to be playing...

Meh, not even sure it's worth it. I certainly wasn't inspired to buy FFXIV because I was like "Oh snap! Manual attacking and a stamina bar! I'm in."
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#27 Feb 18 2011 at 2:28 AM Rating: Good
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I think the point of modern MMOs, at least the ones I enjoy, is to allow players an avenue to work together with people from places other than their own living room.

Cooperation, teamwork and socializing are the absolute base requirements for an MMO.
Immersion would be a very close 4th, in that, players want to feel a part of a fantasy world. Someplace other than sitting in front of their PC, or console.

If a battle system feels clunky, or unintuitive, it takes away from the immersion, and the opportunity to socialize with other players. It's important for an MMO to have an easy to use system, and I believe SE is slowly getting there.

I'm just not sure if they'll be able to pull off the Auto-attack feature without changing things I really like about the current battle system.
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#28 Feb 18 2011 at 7:00 AM Rating: Decent
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I voted for Auto-Attack, but only because it was being considered. To be fairly honest, a lot this just seems to be their way of giving up.
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#29 Feb 18 2011 at 7:09 AM Rating: Good
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I want auto attack... but I guess the stamina would need to be tweaked some. Would the basic auto attack be "free" in terms of stamina? I would almost have to be.

Edited, Feb 18th 2011 7:09am by Mithsavvy
#30 Feb 18 2011 at 7:46 AM Rating: Good
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I just want to add something to the topic of the stamina bar....
This is something typical for the FF titles, in one form or another, like chocobos or moogles. Whereas it works fine in a single player game, in a MMO the dynamic inevitably changes as it's a completely different play stile influenced by other people and that's why perhaps the timers/cooldown on skills work better and are more comfortable to use than the stamina bars.
It's just a matter of, whether SE is willing to give up on a FF staple in a FF game and to what extent.
#31 Feb 18 2011 at 8:16 AM Rating: Default
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Honestly i find all this discussion about the stamina bar extremely immture.

The stamina bar is the basic of this game's battle system, is something different from any other MMO, it prevents you from spamming skills and adds some kind of strategy to the game.
My point is that if you don't like the stamina bar it's ok, there are tons of other MMOs all with the same copied battle system that i'm sure you'll enjoy, but there are people that enjoy THIS system.
I'm a bit concerned because it's clear Yoshi-P is listening to the players, but i don't want him to just throw in everything he reads on the forums (for exemple the jump feature >.>)

The point is if you don't like a game just don't play it, don't force yourself to pretend you like it just because it has a cool title and most of all don't try to change it, because there are ppl that might like it the way it is!
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#32 Feb 18 2011 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
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My thought for auto-attack is, when your stamina bar gets full when in combat it automatically uses whatever attack you have set to 1, which will generally be your basic attack you get at rank 1, but you can change it to whatever action you want. This way you can use whatever attack you want for auto attack. Also it prevents them from having to rebalance the stamina bar system to implement the auto attack, and also keeps it from preventing you from using whatever abilities you want. Too if you don't want auto attack, as long as you don't let your stamina bar get completely full during combat, you should never notice the difference.

Edited, Feb 18th 2011 9:46am by Leane
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#33 Feb 18 2011 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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alcide wrote:
Honestly i find all this discussion about the stamina bar extremely immture.

The stamina bar is the basic of this game's battle system, is something different from any other MMO, it prevents you from spamming skills and adds some kind of strategy to the game.
My point is that if you don't like the stamina bar it's ok, there are tons of other MMOs all with the same copied battle system that i'm sure you'll enjoy, but there are people that enjoy THIS system.
I'm a bit concerned because it's clear Yoshi-P is listening to the players, but i don't want him to just throw in everything he reads on the forums (for exemple the jump feature >.>)

The point is if you don't like a game just don't play it, don't force yourself to pretend you like it just because it has a cool title and most of all don't try to change it, because there are ppl that might like it the way it is!


Thanks for posting.
#34 Feb 18 2011 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
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Leane wrote:
My thought for auto-attack is, when your stamina bar gets full when in combat it automatically uses whatever attack you have set to 1, which will generally be your basic attack you get at rank 1, but you can change it to whatever action you want. This way you can use whatever attack you want for auto attack. Also it prevents them from having to rebalance the stamina bar system to implement the auto attack, and also keeps it from preventing you from using whatever abilities you want. Too if you don't want auto attack, as long as you don't let your stamina bar get completely full during combat, you should never notice the difference.

Edited, Feb 18th 2011 9:46am by Leane



This is a good point. I mean, as long as any other action can immediately override the default "auto-attack" option, then nothing else would have to be redesigned.

If you press nothing, your default attack action is performed. If you push a button for another action, it immediately overrides the default action and will activate as soon as the stamina bar fills up enough to trigger it. If you would prefer to "store up" your stamina for a more instant action response, then simply press the toggle button to turn off auto-attack. the toggle button could take the place of the skillchain button... and of course they could implement ffxi style skillchains in its place.

#35 Feb 18 2011 at 10:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Why are there only two options?

FFXIII has exactly the mechanics this game needed, but they decided to go with the inferior alternative that needs more work. That is disappointing.

More importantly, if you need to spam the basic attack that is not a problem with the push-to-attack feature, but the overall combat system and how the content is designed. If it's easy, you won't have to use more skills than the basic attack, pretty much.

Edited, Feb 18th 2011 7:55pm by Hyanmen
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#36 Feb 18 2011 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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alcide wrote:
Scape13 wrote:
Don't really matter to me but I don't see why so many people I talk to are against auto attack. As if spamming 11111111 is strategic or adds to the fun factor. I rather spend my time communicating with my party members and managing all my abilities and timers, instead of having to constantly manually use a normal attack.


If you're spamming 11111111 you're doing it wrong.

As I already said, you have at least 2 different normal attacks per class, plus several abilities that boost tp generation and lots of ws; usually i start the fight boosting myself, then 2 or 3 normal attacks (that are not always the same, it depends on the mobs, on the fact that i need TP or not and on my position), then a weapon skill (some times even 2 in a row) and this is only for easy guildleves. With NMs is totally different, i use abilities many more times, i use normal attacks battle regimens followed by weapon skills battle regimens and it isn't spammy at all, indeed there are several times when we need to stop attacking and gain tp only via abilities in order to avoid killing the NM before he's incapacitated.

I'm sorry but i really can't see where the battle system is spammy. Adding an auto attack feature would make impossible to use all the strategies i listed and THEN the battle system would be a slow spam of weapon skills


Dude +1 man, so true!
#37 Feb 18 2011 at 10:57 AM Rating: Good
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Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Like I said in the other thread, I'm worried about how they'll implement Auto-attack.

It seems like they'll have to completely redo the battle system if they do add it in, and I'm not sure I really want that.
Looking back on it, I really don't use basic attacks that much. I use a different ability every three hits or so.


THIS. Is there anyone out there still spamming 1? I mean seriously. I never notice myself using the standard attacks that much, partially cause my main is a mage - but even say on lancer - I am just as likely using siphon TP, comrade at arms, invigorate - so yeah it is more like standard attack, boost standard attack, TP ability, heal, TP ability, standard attack

I like the pace of it, and I don't see any need to talk while battling. TBH if battling is made so slow that I can chatter away during it... well then it would be boring.

Edited, Feb 18th 2011 8:57am by Olorinus
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#38 Feb 18 2011 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
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meh, sandwich melee incoming.
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#39 Feb 18 2011 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Like I said in the other thread, I'm worried about how they'll implement Auto-attack.

It seems like they'll have to completely redo the battle system if they do add it in, and I'm not sure I really want that.
Looking back on it, I really don't use basic attacks that much. I use a different ability every three hits or so.


THIS. Is there anyone out there still spamming 1? I mean seriously. I never notice myself using the standard attacks that much, partially cause my main is a mage - but even say on lancer - I am just as likely using siphon TP, comrade at arms, invigorate - so yeah it is more like standard attack, boost standard attack, TP ability, heal, TP ability, standard attack

I like the pace of it, and I don't see any need to talk while battling. TBH if battling is made so slow that I can chatter away during it... well then it would be boring.

Edited, Feb 18th 2011 8:57am by Olorinus



So true! Wish I could rate up, but I'm still too nubi! :P

I play a gladiator and quite frankly I only use basic attacks to 'claim' and possibly build tp with invigorate if I'm not tanking. I can't remember when I spammed 1 last, level 16?
#40 Feb 18 2011 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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I'm for an auto attack. I'd love to see haste and haste gear make a comeback. Same goes for weapon speeds too. It just makes sense.

A MAR should swing slow and heavy; putting up big numbers, while a PUG should hit fairly fast, with combo moves.

Coincidentally, I think an auto attack with the aforementioned haste and weapons would add to the much needed definition of classes.

#41 Feb 18 2011 at 11:35 AM Rating: Default
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alcide wrote:
Scape13 wrote:
Don't really matter to me but I don't see why so many people I talk to are against auto attack. As if spamming 11111111 is strategic or adds to the fun factor. I rather spend my time communicating with my party members and managing all my abilities and timers, instead of having to constantly manually use a normal attack.


If you're spamming 11111111 you're doing it wrong.

As I already said, you have at least 2 different normal attacks per class, plus several abilities that boost tp generation and lots of ws; usually i start the fight boosting myself, then 2 or 3 normal attacks (that are not always the same, it depends on the mobs, on the fact that i need TP or not and on my position), then a weapon skill (some times even 2 in a row) and this is only for easy guildleves. With NMs is totally different, i use abilities many more times, i use normal attacks battle regimens followed by weapon skills battle regimens and it isn't spammy at all, indeed there are several times when we need to stop attacking and gain tp only via abilities in order to avoid killing the NM before he's incapacitated.

I'm sorry but i really can't see where the battle system is spammy. Adding an auto attack feature would make impossible to use all the strategies i listed and THEN the battle system would be a slow spam of weapon skills


Dude, having to manually use your normal attack between managing your abilities and timers does NOT add strategy.
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#42 Feb 18 2011 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Auto-attack is just a passive DoT placed on a character's primary target within melee range of a class with the ability - at least in most implementations. It doesn't allow a character to AFK, and I am certain that the idea of simply auto-attacking to victory is laughable by even the staunch supporters of its addition. What it does do is give the developers another knob to turn in order to make interesting game play (abilities that buff auto-attack damage, interesting weapons with higher or lower speed/damage, differing styles of play such as fast hits with low damage and vice-versa).

With that said I think it is completely possible to implement an interesting and involving combat system without auto-attack, however I do not think that the system FFXIV has in place successfully does this. For instance, try to imagine the implementation of a class that feels like they have a lot of attack speed without spamming under this current system - I do not think it can be done without the addition of a lot of abilities that automatically contain multiple hits.

More and varied ability usage with more meaningful energy consumption and ability cooldowns would be a step in that direction, however I think auto-attack has more going for it.
#43 Feb 18 2011 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
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the other thing is when I proc a stun... or my sleep dagger procs on an enemy, the lack of an auto attack means I can back up, heal myself, boost - get some stamina or whatever.

I think lack of auto-attack DOES add strategy. I don't think strategy is impossible with auto-attack but a lot of the things I really like about battle would be ruined by autoattack
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#44 Feb 18 2011 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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I think lack of auto-attack DOES add strategy. I don't think strategy is impossible with auto-attack but a lot of the things I really like about battle would be ruined by autoattack


Yeah, how the **** is it going to work? Stamina gauge is removed? Basic attacks no longer consume the stamina gauge? Basic attacks automatically use part of the stamina? What happens to weapon skills and such?

Are we going to, once again, play like in XI which meant standing around and doing a weapon skill once in a while if you weren't a mage? Are the skills going to get boosted so that we'd mainly use them in a fast succession while basic attacks become mostly useless, like in other MMO's?

I'm not against many things that SE could take from other MMO's, but is this objectively speaking a good mechanic to mimic? Two things can happen: A) Combat becomes like in XI where we chat because the gameplay was so mindnumbingly boring otherwise, or B) Combat becomes like in other MMO's and we'd have no time to chat anyway.



Edited, Feb 18th 2011 8:59pm by Hyanmen
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#45 Feb 18 2011 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I think lack of auto-attack DOES add strategy. I don't think strategy is impossible with auto-attack but a lot of the things I really like about battle would be ruined by autoattack


Yeah, how the **** is it going to work? Stamina gauge is removed? Basic attacks no longer consume the stamina gauge? Basic attacks automatically use part of the stamina? What happens to weapon skills and such?

Are we going to, once again, play like in XI which meant standing around and doing a weapon skill once in a while if you weren't a mage? Are the skills going to get boosted so that we'd mainly use them in a fast succession while basic attacks become mostly useless, like in other MMO's?

I'm not against many things that SE could take from other MMO's, but is this objectively speaking a good mechanic to mimic? Two things can happen: A) Combat becomes like in XI when we chat because the gameplay is so mindnumbingly boring otherwise, or B) Combat becomes like in other MMO's and we'd have no time to chat anyway.



I agree with you. I really like the pace of combat in XIV - I feel really engaged... whereas XI was all about standing around waiting for your TP bar to fill. Heck barely anyone ever used skillchains either... so there was really less challenge.

The only job I find is less challenging in XIV than it was in XI is healing. Healing was challenging in XI because of the intense hate that curing generated, and the lack of AOE cure spam. I mean, I was still primarily firing off cure I well into my late 20s - but yeah if people think this game is 1,1,1,1,1... healing in XI was way worse in terms of doing the same thing over and over and over again
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#46 Feb 18 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
15 posts
I don't think it's quite as polarized as that, and honestly speaking it isn't our job to implement the feature (if it gets added) in a manner that is interesting and engaging - that's Square's job.

However, if I were to speculate on how auto-attack would be added it would fundamentally be the same system we have now except the base damage done by a class would not be 0, and the focus would be more on how to spend stamina on non-trivial abilities. Make stamina-using abilities the only things that generate TP, adjust ability damage and stamina consumption, maybe add some things that enhance attack speed for class differentiation, and ship it.
#47 Feb 18 2011 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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All I see is that these changes will emphasize spamming, not remove it. If we are not using our skills we are either chatting or positioning ourselves (if Yoshida will even expand on that), and that sounds incredibly boring, and this game can not be made to feel boring. Therefore their only option as-is is to make it so skills are used much more often to make up for the lack of need to use the basic attack. We will keep spamming 1 1 1 1 2 2 1 1 3 like we arguably currently do, it's just no longer the basic attack that we spam.

Which is too bad, as the basic attack system this game had going on was very close to being quite good. There were many situational different basic attacks that when properly tuned would have made the system interesting. Not to mention when you up the difficulty and make us require to perform in our roles as effectively as possible, the need to constantly use only the basic attack would diminish.

At least this gives me hope that they are going to unlock the skills and we won't be stuck on ground while doing them. As XI's auto attack lets you move around freely while XIV's doesn't, it would be incredibly stupid to make this system inferior.
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#48 Feb 18 2011 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
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The core of the matter is not actually whether auto-attack should be implemented or not. Auto-attack is not an essential aspect, the missing element here that everyone (or at least those supporting auto) is starving to have is the social aspect that often came with parties.

In FFXIV, parties are too "business-like" almost like a "'wham bam thank you ma'am'" now NEXT MOB!" sense. Some people like this style, they loved the tp burn parties (or similar) of late game FFXI. Others prefer the slower paced but more social parties of early FFXI and endgame non-grinding battles.
The true question here is: which do you want?

Personal preference: slower combat and with a more social aspect. I found that pickup parties in FFXI was often the best way for me to meet new friends (or enemies >.>). But some of the best online friends I have are those I met randomly while partying. So if I don't really care much for the social aspect of the game, then I wouldn't mind the fast paced grind of current FFXIV. While it's true that not all battles are grinds, having to be constantly pressing buttons all the time does take away from being able to chat. To remedy this just have longer cooldown time.

Having said that, I can also see why some people prefer to quickly and efficiently kill and loot a mob. It's all about DPS and gil per hour. Efficiency. Which is always good to have.

But I don't play a game for it's fast paced battle system, so I'll stick to slow pace.

OMG! tl;dr!
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#49 Feb 18 2011 at 12:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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I want involving gameplay. If that means SE needs to introduce a built-in voice-chat, so be it. Social aspect is no excuse to make the gameplay so uninvolving that you have time to write novels in a combat situation.

This is no question of slow vs. fast pace. With an auto-attack feature, this game can still be even faster paced than it is now. It has to be, because "enforcing social aspect" is not an excuse when alternatives exist.

Edited, Feb 18th 2011 9:25pm by Hyanmen
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#50 Feb 18 2011 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
the other thing is when I proc a stun... or my sleep dagger procs on an enemy, the lack of an auto attack means I can back up, heal myself, boost - get some stamina or whatever.

I think lack of auto-attack DOES add strategy. I don't think strategy is impossible with auto-attack but a lot of the things I really like about battle would be ruined by autoattack


huh? you can back up, heal yourself, boost- get your stamina or whatever.... with auto attack as well.
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#51 Feb 18 2011 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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Scape13 wrote:


Dude, having to manually use your normal attack between managing your abilities and timers does NOT add strategy.


It does.
As lancer, for exemple, you have the first normal attack that deals decent damage to 1 target, Heavy Thrust that deals decent damage and slow the movement speed of the target but requires a lot of stamina, Pierce that deals decent damage to all enemies betwen you and the target and Full Thrust that deals less damage but gives you much more TP. So you have to think wisely wich one to use, it depends on your position against the enemies, on your amount of tp, on your cool down on tp generating abilities, on the fact that you know the target is gonna flee or not, on your amount of stamina...
In XIV normal attacks are managed just like all the other abilities and weapon skills and i think that's a great thing.

Seriously, how can you guys still say you're spamming 1111111? If you're still doing it you can't blame SE if you're not enjoying the game

Edited, Feb 18th 2011 1:24pm by alcide
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