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POLL: Auto-Attack vs. Push-To-AttackFollow

#52 Feb 18 2011 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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legendof7th wrote:
The core of the matter is not actually whether auto-attack should be implemented or not. Auto-attack is not an essential aspect, the missing element here that everyone (or at least those supporting auto) is starving to have is the social aspect that often came with parties.

In FFXIV, parties are too "business-like" almost like a "'wham bam thank you ma'am'" now NEXT MOB!" sense. Some people like this style, they loved the tp burn parties (or similar) of late game FFXI. Others prefer the slower paced but more social parties of early FFXI and endgame non-grinding battles.
The true question here is: which do you want?

Personal preference: slower combat and with a more social aspect. I found that pickup parties in FFXI was often the best way for me to meet new friends (or enemies >.>). But some of the best online friends I have are those I met randomly while partying. So if I don't really care much for the social aspect of the game, then I wouldn't mind the fast paced grind of current FFXIV. While it's true that not all battles are grinds, having to be constantly pressing buttons all the time does take away from being able to chat. To remedy this just have longer cooldown time.

Having said that, I can also see why some people prefer to quickly and efficiently kill and loot a mob. It's all about DPS and gil per hour. Efficiency. Which is always good to have.

But I don't play a game for it's fast paced battle system, so I'll stick to slow pace.

OMG! tl;dr!


For me it isn't really about efficiency as much as it is about not being bored. I find it boring to stand around while the computer plays the game for me... I mean yeah I have to hit a button every once in awhile to do a TP move or whatever, but I would rather chat in some downtime in the party then have battle so slow that I could write a novel while being in them.

I mean I knew LOTS of people in XI who would be playing another game on a console while they were partying. It isn't acceptable for a game to be so slow you can play another game at the same time.

I still make friends just fine - typing while running to the next clump of mobs, typing while waiting for someone's weakness to wear, typing while waiting for the behest battlewarden to pop... I just don't feel the need to be socializing while battling - because if I can do that (outside of voice chat) then the battle is too frigging slow

Also, how would abilities like raging strike work? You going to spend half the battle with your back to the mob because you don't want to waste your raging stike >> hawks eye >>> ferocity? So should SE get rid of the directional based effects (mobs hitting you in the back versus the sides?

Or should we do away with boosts and all strategy whatsoever just so that people can turn this game into FINAL MSN XIV?
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#53 Feb 18 2011 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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Auto-attack sets a minimum attack speed regardless of other added option attack skills or weaponskills. If the minimum auto-attack is .5 seconds, it'll be very fast, if it's 5 seconds it'll be extremely slow. Just an example.

Also, the problem is having voicechat is having 50 other people talk at once. -.- Great for giving commands, not so great for socializing.
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#54 Feb 18 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Also, the problem is having voicechat is having 50 other people talk at once. -.-


That sure works out better with a chat box.....
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#55 Feb 18 2011 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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Well, to be fair a game should not be easy to not enjoy while following its basic rules. That is mostly the point.

I would even consider some modifications to the auto-attack-less system to be a step in the right direction, don't get me wrong. It is completely possible to create an interesting attack system without the passive DoT of auto-anything. I just don't think this is it.

As it stands, most of the classes feel the same to me since they share similar energy usage and ability cooldown, so they attack at basically the same rate, and I press basically the same things no matter if I am one class or another.
#56 Feb 18 2011 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
legendof7th wrote:
The core of the matter is not actually whether auto-attack should be implemented or not. Auto-attack is not an essential aspect, the missing element here that everyone (or at least those supporting auto) is starving to have is the social aspect that often came with parties.

In FFXIV, parties are too "business-like" almost like a "'wham bam thank you ma'am'" now NEXT MOB!" sense. Some people like this style, they loved the tp burn parties (or similar) of late game FFXI. Others prefer the slower paced but more social parties of early FFXI and endgame non-grinding battles.
The true question here is: which do you want?

Personal preference: slower combat and with a more social aspect. I found that pickup parties in FFXI was often the best way for me to meet new friends (or enemies >.>). But some of the best online friends I have are those I met randomly while partying. So if I don't really care much for the social aspect of the game, then I wouldn't mind the fast paced grind of current FFXIV. While it's true that not all battles are grinds, having to be constantly pressing buttons all the time does take away from being able to chat. To remedy this just have longer cooldown time.

Having said that, I can also see why some people prefer to quickly and efficiently kill and loot a mob. It's all about DPS and gil per hour. Efficiency. Which is always good to have.

But I don't play a game for it's fast paced battle system, so I'll stick to slow pace.

OMG! tl;dr!


For me it isn't really about efficiency as much as it is about not being bored. I find it boring to stand around while the computer plays the game for me... I mean yeah I have to hit a button every once in awhile to do a TP move or whatever, but I would rather chat in some downtime in the party then have battle so slow that I could write a novel while being in them.

I mean I knew LOTS of people in XI who would be playing another game on a console while they were partying. It isn't acceptable for a game to be so slow you can play another game at the same time.

I still make friends just fine - typing while running to the next clump of mobs, typing while waiting for someone's weakness to wear, typing while waiting for the behest battlewarden to pop... I just don't feel the need to be socializing while battling - because if I can do that (outside of voice chat) then the battle is too frigging slow

Also, how would abilities like raging strike work? You going to spend half the battle with your back to the mob because you don't want to waste your raging stike >> hawks eye >>> ferocity? So should SE get rid of the directional based effects (mobs hitting you in the back versus the sides?

Or should we do away with boosts and all strategy whatsoever just so that people can turn this game into FINAL MSN XIV?


Point taken, the change of pace of battles would result in dramatic redesign of the battle system. And it's true that, at times, FFXI was TOO slow (even more on some jobs than others). But I'm sticking with my request for overall longer cooldown time, just not those ridiculously long 5 min to 2 hour cooldowns.

I guess the question is now, which is more convenient? After all the modern world is built on how convenient something is. You can't argue this matter.
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#57 Feb 18 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Default
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Also, the problem is having voicechat is having 50 other people talk at once. -.-


That sure works out better with a chat box.....


Maybe for you. You lucky fella. I can put filters on the chat box. Can I do the same for voice chat? I once recall a time when another player was being yelled at by his mom and it could be heard on voice chat. (Offtopic)
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#58 Feb 18 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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I just don't think this is it.


Well, I hope you don't misunderstand us. I don't think anyone thinks the current combat system and the level of difficulty wouldn't need more or less tweaks.

Your problem has more to do with the Armoury system, than the combat system. Yes, they are very much intertwined together, which is something everyone should realize. And as far as the combat system, if the encounters do not require us to perform in our different roles, we will all end up doing the same thing. Again, auto-attack won't change any of this.

Quote:
Maybe for you. You lucky fella. I can put filters on the chat box. Can I do the same for voice chat? I once recall a time when another player was being yelled at by his mom and it could be heard on voice chat. (Offtopic)


Well, uhh, obviously you can? That would be like a chat box without filters, and I don't think that's a fair comparison to make.

Edited, Feb 18th 2011 9:45pm by Hyanmen
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#59 Feb 18 2011 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, uhh, obviously you can? That would be like a chat box without filters, and I don't think that's a fair comparison to make.

Edited, Feb 18th 2011 9:45pm by Hyanmen [/quote]

Well, I'm not entirely against voice chat, sometimes those comments are lolepic, they make my day.

And how much of an impact can auto attack have anyways? Given the rate of attack is the same as the amount of time it takes replenish the stamina used. Which imo, would be ideal.
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#60 Feb 18 2011 at 12:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Given the rate of attack is the same as the amount of time it takes replenish the stamina used. Which imo, would be ideal.


Ideal time to do... nothing at all? Ideal time to do... skills that simply replace the basic attack and nothing changes? Ideal time to... chat with your LS, an excuse that simply won't fly in modern MMO's no longer, especially when there are features like voice-chat?

All I hope is that this change will do something meaningful for the game. As it doesn't seem like it's such a simple and riskless system to implement:

Quote:
Examination of risks of and scale of changes for an auto-attack system


There has to be a point to this change.
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#61 Feb 18 2011 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I really don't see that much of an impact here. I could go either way, but at the end of the day, auto-attack is just a nice and convenient thing to have that's all there is to it.
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#62 Feb 18 2011 at 1:08 PM Rating: Decent
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So wouldn't having your auto attack being handled by default free your hands?
#63 Feb 18 2011 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So wouldn't having your auto attack being handled by default free your hands?


Exactly what one would want to do while playing a vidya game.
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#64 Feb 18 2011 at 1:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
So wouldn't having your auto attack being handled by default free your hands?


If I want my hands free - I wouldn't be playing a frigging video game!
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#65 Feb 18 2011 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
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If they implement auto-attack and keep the stamina system it will most likely only auto attack when your stamina gauge is completely full. So you hit a button to start attacking and off it will go, each time it attacks it will use stamina as it currently does, then when it is full it will attack again. Doing it this way will allow you to use your buff's and then weapon skill without worrying about the auto attack going off. Though some may need tweaking like Ferocity and Raging Strike which use very little to no stamina.

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#66 Feb 19 2011 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
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I'd take being able to watch my character's awesomeness in battle over watching action bars & stamina gauge any day. Auto-attack ftw. Honestly, even if they put in the old combat system from FFXI that would be an upgrade to what FFXIV has now, albeit a minor one. But they could do so much better (But didn't for some reason). Auto-attack should only be a tiny fraction of your damage, and should not determine whether or not you have built up the power to use a skill. There should be plenty to do during combat other than sitting around eating chips or surfing forums. Now in WoW I spend more time watching my action bars than I do my character, and I don't desire that sort of combat for FFXIV either. Battle should be flashy and awesome. My character should be wielding his axe like a god and doing backflips and crazy sh*t, slicing/dicing/kicking ***/taking names - none of this same casting/attacking pose 1000 times a fight garbage.

This is what I was hoping FFXIV would've fixed from FFXI from the very start. But you know, huge steps backwards and all that...

Edited, Feb 19th 2011 10:10am by blackjacktwentyone
#67 Feb 19 2011 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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I definitely think there should be weapon delays or something. Its bad enough that none of the jobs really stand out from one another. It's even worse when someone with a huge 2h weapon can swing just as fast as a PGL or someone using a small 1h weapon.

and its just amazing how some people honestly think that not having to manually use your normal attacks is somehow taking away all the strategy and "hands-on". It's just a freaking basic attack. You would still have all your timers and abilities to manage.

Edited, Feb 19th 2011 11:53am by Scape13
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#68 Feb 19 2011 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I voted for auto-attack because i'd like to see more chatting in parties, but I do like a lot of the things in the current system.

They could make a system so you can queue up to four skills, and give the option to cancel skill(s) in the queue in case something changes during the battle. We could have a bar under our action bar that shows which skills we have in queue. This way we could get enough time to type a sentence and keep the stamina system the way it is. For example, if you just used up all your TP, you can just queue up four basic attacks to get TP back and type out a strategy while those four attacks are going off.

They kind of already have this system in the game where it says "readying ..." when you spam an attack too fast. They could just expand it to four and give us the option to cancel the skills in queue.
#69 Feb 19 2011 at 12:38 PM Rating: Default
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All the people talking about using skill x and skill y in place of auto attack or instead of spamming 1 got me thinking. What exactly are you going to do when they make classes more specialized? When siphon mp is thm or conj only etc. Do you really have enough skills to spamm instead of using auto attack? Are you going to stand there and get whailed on while you wait for your CD? You all know class specialization is coming in one form or another.

I'm all for auto attack for the simple reason of community. I like to chat with LS mates and friends. I like to tell friends how the NM battle is going while its ongoing. The stamina bar will prob go with auto attack implementation which is unfortunate. It reminds me of the active battle bar from old school FF.

For those that do like the current system i dont think you will like whats to come. Far too many people are in favor of completely revamping the system. With the pressure SE and the 14 team is under i feel they are going with what they know works here in place of an unpopular system. Seems like they are more focused on other aspects of the game like content and quests as well as character changes. perhaps in the future the subject will be revised but right now its little time too much work.

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#70 Feb 19 2011 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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For the millionth time, attack queuing. Auto-attack is a pretty lame mechanic (in that it doesn't really allow the player to do anything by adding it), but the current system where you have to constantly micro-manage your actions is totally borked. I'm kind of dismayed that they just made FFXIII, which used a type of attack queuing system, and it hasn't occurred to them what an elegant solution it would be in FFXIV.

To explain a possible implementation of the system (without getting in to too many details), you're able to queue up as many as, let's say, eight abilities at a time, then you execute them automatically as your stamina gauge permits. You can cancel queued up abilities as well. Doesn't fundamentally change the current system too much, but you can actually find a break to talk or do other things... but you can't walk away and make a sandwich.
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#71 Feb 19 2011 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
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Scape13 wrote:
I definitely think there should be weapon delays or something. Its bad enough that none of the jobs really stand out from one another. It's even worse when someone with a huge 2h weapon can swing just as fast as a PGL or someone using a small 1h weapon.

and its just amazing how some people honestly think that not having to manually use your normal attacks is somehow taking away all the strategy and "hands-on". It's just a freaking basic attack. You would still have all your timers and abilities to manage.

Edited, Feb 19th 2011 11:53am by Scape13


You know, I agree. I've always found it kinda weird that a Marauder's giant axe deals damage at roughly the same speed as a Lancer. Serious, if you're just using a spear, you should be able to get in at the very least 2-3 thrust before a giant axe can swing again. But let's not talk about implementing weapon delays just yet because people will start crying about it being too slow. >.>
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#72 Feb 19 2011 at 5:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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legendof7th wrote:
You know, I agree. I've always found it kinda weird that a Marauder's giant axe deals damage at roughly the same speed as a Lancer. Serious, if you're just using a spear, you should be able to get in at the very least 2-3 thrust before a giant axe can swing again.
Not if you want to put any weight into those thrusts...

Stamina use could be tweaked, but really, it shouldn't take any less stamina to thrust a spear into something, and expect it to do any damage.
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#73 Feb 19 2011 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
legendof7th wrote:
You know, I agree. I've always found it kinda weird that a Marauder's giant axe deals damage at roughly the same speed as a Lancer. Serious, if you're just using a spear, you should be able to get in at the very least 2-3 thrust before a giant axe can swing again.
Not if you want to put any weight into those thrusts...

Stamina use could be tweaked, but really, it shouldn't take any less stamina to thrust a spear into something, and expect it to do any damage.


Well, try actually wielding those two weapons. Realistically the G.Axe weights a ton more than a spear. What you imagine and what you think it should be are completely different when you actually experience it.

But I digress, we are not talking about the "real" world. As much as I would love to have weapon delays to compensate for this lack of "realness", in the digital world everything is weightless and damage is not calculated by the actually amount of damage that might be caused by said weapon, but by STR and weapon base ATT.
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#74 Feb 19 2011 at 7:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I voted for the auto-attack mainly for the reasons that have already been stated. I feel no need to spam normal attacks, and auto-attack adds so much to the game from a social standpoint. This is not a action game, and I believe the core aspects of a MMO is the social aspect.

Also expect a huge overhaul with the entire battle system including the stamina bar. According to the 1st poll, the JP community totally hated the battle system. I am expecting after this poll is completed and the results are recorded, the next big update will be a huge overhaul of the battle system. The JP community hating the battle system makes it a huge priority for SE, and even though I don't hate it, I also would be excited for an overhaul of the battle system.
#75 Feb 19 2011 at 7:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't see how auto attack is needed or desirable. If anything, the different normal attack abilities should be tweaked so that more of them have their place in combat. If you find yourself spamming the same normal attack, you either haven't bought different attacks or haven't explored them properly.

I feel like auto attack would serve to make combat less engaging, which would be a major let down for people who spend a lot of their time in game fighting things. Would it be acceptable to have craft jobs auto-standard their synths?
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#76 Feb 19 2011 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
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For all the posts arguing to keep it the way it is, the poll is overwhelmingly in favor of auto-attack.
#77 Feb 19 2011 at 7:58 PM Rating: Excellent
Seems the vast majority of people want some kind of change to the battle system. To me, the question is whether we should have an auto attack or an attack queuing system.

I vote for auto attack. I believe auto attack allows for easier communication, and allows you to concentrate more on using magic/special abilities/etc. The whole point of auto attack is to get rid of having to press 111113111211111151111113.... with queuing, wouldn't you still be spamming buttons, just spread out? Like 11111 (wait) 31112 (wait) etc. I'd rather just (wait) 3 (wait) 2 (wait) 5 (wait) 3.

Plus, auto attack allows you to be more reactive to what the enemy is doing when using special abilities. I see no tactical use for preemptively dialing in attacks before you even know what the enemy is going to do... that is, unless I'm totally misunderstanding what "attack queuing" means.
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#78 Feb 19 2011 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good
I haven't said much since I started this thread. I was kind of waiting to see what other people's opinions were before stating what I think. The current Battle System gives fighting an arcade-style feel to it. If I was playing an arcade game this would be great. Unfortunately, I feel -detached- in a party. I don't necessarily pay attention to what anyone else is doing short of making sure my heals hit everyone, or that I am not going to AoE a mob outside our target group. Battle Regimens are rarely used, and as such this attributes to the problem. I don't have to care about what other players are using weaponskill-wise to coordinate a skillchain, I don't have to time a Magic Burst, to maximize my Damage/MP ratio. I don't even have to watch HP levels, because I can spam heal the whole fight (only taking care not to pull too much hate) and never run out of MP. A lack of strategy, and -button mashing-, so-to-speak makes for a very poor partying experience. I have played other MMOs (including FFXI) and have had a more enjoyable partying experience.

As such I feel introducing an auto-attack is a step in the right direction. Combine that with some other modifications to the battle system, like making Weaponskills more significant, by which I mean reducing how often they can be used(as of now TP is so easy to get it seems like weaponskills are actually the -normal attack-) and increasing the usability of debuffs, and Magic-based damage (making Magical Weaponskills more beneficial vs certain mobs, and having a more definable magical weakness system allowing for a wider use of elemental damage spells in a party). I think we can get partying to be more of an enjoyable -group- activity, rather than people -soloing- in a group.

For now, at least once they introduce auto-attack, I can hold a conversation during our parties, and help pass the time while I grind.

Just my 2 gil.

Edited, Feb 19th 2011 9:02pm by StateAlchemist2

Edited, Feb 19th 2011 9:05pm by StateAlchemist2
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#79 Feb 19 2011 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
I haven't said much since I started this thread. I was kind of waiting to see what other people's opinions were before stating what I think. The current Battle System gives fighting an arcade-style feel to it. If I was playing an arcade game this would be great. Unfortunately, I feel -detached- in a party. I don't necessarily pay attention to what anyone else is doing short of making sure my heals hit everyone, or that I am not going to AoE a mob outside our target group. Battle Regimens are rarely used, and as such this attributes to the problem. I don't have to care about what other players are using weaponskill-wise to coordinate a skillchain, I don't have to time a Magic Burst, to maximize my Damage/MP ratio. I don't even have to watch HP levels, because I can spam heal the whole fight (only taking care not to pull too much hate) and never run out of MP. A lack of strategy, and -button mashing-, so-to-speak makes for a very poor partying experience. I have played other MMOs (including FFXI) and have had a more enjoyable partying experience.

As such I feel introducing an auto-attack is a step in the right direction. Combine that with some other modifications to the battle system, like making Weaponskills more significant, by which I mean reducing how often they can be used(as of now TP is so easy to get it seems like weaponskills are actually the -normal attack-) and increasing the usability of debuffs, and Magic-based damage (making Magical Weaponskills more beneficial vs certain mobs, and having a more definable magical weakness system allowing for a wider use of elemental damage spells in a party). I think we can get partying to be more of an enjoyable -group- activity, rather than people -soloing- in a group.

For now, at least once they introduce auto-attack, I can hold a conversation during our parties, and help pass the time while I grind.

Just my 2 gil.


This^

But I doubt that auto-attack on its own will solve the problem and give us what we want (what you mentioned).

So I'm still in favor of slower battles but more exp per kill. Versus, fast battles with low exp per.
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#80 Feb 19 2011 at 9:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
If I was playing an arcade game this would be great. Unfortunately, I feel -detached- in a party. I don't necessarily pay attention to what anyone else is doing short of making sure my heals hit everyone, or that I am not going to AoE a mob outside our target group. Battle Regimens are rarely used, and as such this attributes to the problem. [/sm][/i]

Edited, Feb 19th 2011 9:05pm by StateAlchemist2


I honestly have no idea what is happening in my parties outside of what I'm doing (1222312223).

I don't even have the time to get big number syndrome and comment into the party chat "OMG did you see my 1337 damage!?" :D

I completely agree that the push to attack system hampers team work more than anything. I was all abotu this system during pre-release and beyond but the more I play it the more I want auto attack. I think it's because now I have more abilities than I can shake a stick at. Really, all I do is spam heavy strike / light strike until I miss so I can trigger Feint, and wait for an Evade so I can trigger Jarring Strike.
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#81 Feb 20 2011 at 1:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you are just spaming 1s and not using any other abilities, I don't see how introducing auto-attack here will make you want to make you use your abilities more; all it does is presses the 1s for you.
In fact, I think it may even discourages the use of your secondary attacks (light strike, light stab, etc).
In some cases I don't even use the primary attack, for multiple mobs leve, 'Pierce' is my default attack on Lancer.

I agree that the battle system needs tweaking, but I don't think auto-attack is the solution here.
Personally, I wouldn't mind auto-attack, but I would rather they improve on the current system.

Edited, Feb 20th 2011 7:24am by Thervius
#82 Feb 20 2011 at 1:41 AM Rating: Good
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Wow I am shocked so many people want auto attack. That is not an interesting choice to me. For me games should be about making decisions, not about some sort of computer fights for me. If I wanted to monitor increasing numbers that I have no control over I would probably just look at the national debt. I like the current system but I feel it would be benefit from a queueing system you could queue abilities and easily cancel if you wanted to change something up.
#83 Feb 20 2011 at 1:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think they need to tread lightly with their decision on the matter. On one hand, they can keep the battle system the same with a few tweaks and the majority of normal people will leave it at that. However, if they completely change it and add autoattack while wiping the stamina bar, it seems like they would make a large number of people very upset at 1 precise moment. Sure, the people who would like autoattack implemented could argue that they will ragequit if they don't get autoattack. But most likely, this would not happen. If it did happen, it would be a very gradual thing. Maybe I'm being presumptuous, but I would not expect them to completely change it.

If anything, they'd tweak our current system as it is, and add a toggle switch on/off to continuously push your "1" upon having a full stamina bar. This way, both sides win.

my 2 cents though ;p Autoattack makes most players lazy. (not you lovely people who visit these forums though, I'm talking about those other guys.) "I want auto-attack so I can be more social while fighting mobs" ? Well, I want to play with people that are serious players and not chatting and "lol"ing while we fight whatever, whether it be NMs that require people to pay attention, or semi-casual playing where we are trying to optimize our SP/hour in a SP party. I will say this, because I can type decently fast, I have NO problems whatsoever typing in between commands while waiting for my stamina bar to rise. At no point is my stamina bar filled and being wasted by my chatting in the log.

And like the vile guy said, there is plenty of time for you to slowly type inbetween behests, while running to new mobs, during weakness etc.
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#84 Feb 20 2011 at 3:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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For all the posts arguing to keep it the way it is, the poll is overwhelmingly in favor of auto-attack.


It's kind of a false dichotomy though. There are lots of other potential solutions.

Quote:
To me, the question is whether we should have an auto attack or an attack queuing system.

I vote for auto attack. I believe auto attack allows for easier communication, and allows you to concentrate more on using magic/special abilities/etc. The whole point of auto attack is to get rid of having to press 111113111211111151111113.... with queuing, wouldn't you still be spamming buttons, just spread out? Like 11111 (wait) 31112 (wait) etc. I'd rather just (wait) 3 (wait) 2 (wait) 5 (wait) 3.

Plus, auto attack allows you to be more reactive to what the enemy is doing when using special abilities. I see no tactical use for preemptively dialing in attacks before you even know what the enemy is going to do... that is, unless I'm totally misunderstanding what "attack queuing" means.


Well, either system depends on other fixes to the battle system to be a significant improvement, namely balancing individual abilities and requiring more complex strategy. With queuing, it's as you say... you choose the same actions more or less, but it's spread out into bursts. How much you are "spamming" depends on how viable spamming is. But if spamming is viable, the inclusion of auto-attack to "replace" spamming only assures that there will be very little to do at all.

The fundamental problem is not queuing, autoattack, or micromanaging-- this problem is fundamental only to being able to converse and divert your attention-- the fundamental problem to combat is that on-the-fly strategy is not at all required. Virtually every enemy is enough like every other enemy that the same selection of abilities are used to win. The amount of situational usefulness of abilities is very shallow.

However, auto-attack doesn't allow you to be more reactive per se. All queuing does is allow you to arrange a contingency in case you're doing something else at the moment-- in either system you can immediately activate whatever ability you choose.

The bottom line is that auto-attack takes away decisions from the player, while queuing adds them, so it is an innately more strategic system. The only way an auto-attack system could avoid that would be to require the player to be as involved as one would be in a micro-management system much like the current one.

Fundamental to any strategy game is the quantity, complexity and spacing of decisions made. e.g., in chess, you take turns making a single decision and generally taking as much time as you need, and the complexity of each of those decisions is potentially very high. In FFXIV, you are constantly making many decisions of a decidedly low complexity, which many players feel as a grind. When the decisions are of equal complexity, more decisions are always more complex than less decisions, particularly within a given frame of time. The inherent problem with FFXIV is the lack of complexity of individual decisions-- there is nothing wrong with asking players to make many decisions, as many very successful games do. However, if you want players to be able to do things like stop and talk, manage minor real-life tasks, or generally divert their attention from the game to relax for a moment... it's the spacing of those decisions that ultimately matters.

As a related aside to that, spacing decisions so that they are clustered naturally increases the complexity of the game. i.e., it is more complex to make 5 decisions quickly, take a break, and make 5 more decisions quickly-- than it is to make 1 decision, then another, then another, at a more leisurely pace. In fact, the game could impose further challenge by actually requiring players to queue up several abilities at a time (FFXIII did this-- one of many things that it did well in theory but was somewhat overshadowed by other more baffling decisions), rather than giving them the option to. I doubt players would go for this if asked about it, though, because players generally don't like the sound of restrictions unless they have already played a game they enjoyed with the same restrictions.

In short, either system will address the problem of combat micromanagement; however, neither system will address the fundamental problem of a rather strategically hollow combat system. Queuing would create some illusion of depth while auto-attack will probably either be a lateral move or make the game less engaging in general. So while I think queuing would be marginally better, I don't think either change will substantially improve combat.
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#85 Feb 20 2011 at 3:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Like I said in the other thread, I'm worried about how they'll implement Auto-attack.

It seems like they'll have to completely redo the battle system if they do add it in, and I'm not sure I really want that.
Looking back on it, I really don't use basic attacks that much. I use a different ability every three hits or so.


I'm not picking on you, but I've seen this sentiment thrown around since the game launched and I seriously do not get this logic. It doesn't compute, and the worrying makes no sense.

What would they *completely* have to redo? At most, do what other people have suggested and give the melee classes stances -- light, medium, and heavy attacks that automatically fire. This is your filler damage, generates less TP than it would now, and is only there to give you a minimal baseline damage so that you can still chat/etc. and not die while your avatar stands there like an imbecile as a rat pulverizes you to death due to moronic mechanics.

If people are that seriously worried about how it impacts monster health, then slightly increase them as to compensate for the steady damage now. Leave the stamina bar and have that be your resource meter for TP based attacks. Increase the costs of abilities as need be, and as real gear opens up that offers haste (affects stamina regen rate, possibly double affect of auto-filler up to a cap %), reduction of stamina costs on abilities, etc. that becomes the avenue by which power grows. Gear can open up that increases stamina cost but increases damage, or vice versa so that both ends of the spectrum are given options -- spammers can be occupied, those looking for more breaks for their 'tactical' gameplay can have it.

The *ONLY* class I can seriously see this ******** up would be Archers with Multishot. Still, a workaround would be the ability to turn around (and not have your character automatically re-face the target on its own...), switch to heavy stance, nock two arrows, turn around and let them fly. Or simply have them be the only DoW that still adheres by the old system of having to manually input their attack (or actually do the logical thing and give them an actual melee alternative instead of throwing rocks).

Edited, Feb 20th 2011 4:35am by StrijderVechter
#86 Feb 20 2011 at 3:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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That is completely redoing the battle system. I don't know how you can't see that.

I sincerely hope the changes to the battle system, namely the auto-attack (however that will actually end up working), will be an option.
I'm not sure if SE even knows how they're going to make it work.
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#87 Feb 20 2011 at 3:57 AM Rating: Default
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Less stamina bar and 111111, more auto attack and cooldowns

The stamina bar is really just a horrible idea, all it does is make you useless after a burst of abilities

You can do that with a cooldown system too if you so please but standard attack shouldn't take stamina at all, otherwise what do you do while you're waiting!??!
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#88 Feb 20 2011 at 7:04 AM Rating: Good
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Less stamina bar and 111111, more auto attack and cooldowns


Bring on the generic MMO gameplay babeh.
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#89 Feb 20 2011 at 7:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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If SE actually decides to implement auto-attack, hopefully they give us the option to turn it off.
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#90 Feb 20 2011 at 7:45 AM Rating: Good
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TerraSonicX wrote:
If SE actually decides to implement auto-attack, hopefully they give us the option to turn it off.


Everybody wins.
#91 Feb 20 2011 at 7:58 AM Rating: Good
TerraSonicX wrote:
If SE actually decides to implement auto-attack, hopefully they give us the option to turn it off.


THis would please everyone but the Devs I think... I can't imagine the programming nightmare it would be to have both coded into the game in such a way that there isn't some kind of horrible bug. The only way I can see it happening is if they keep the Stamina Bar, but the way Yoshi-P was talking about drastically changing the Battle System, and who knows how the poll will turn out...it is feeling like the Stamina Bar may be scrapped. Replaced by what? No idea, but my 2 gil is on a more simplified FFXI-esque system with an auto-attack/delay. It would just be the most logical implementation. Although it would be interesting to see how exactly they -would- work it into the current system. >.>
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#92 Feb 20 2011 at 10:03 AM Rating: Default
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I found myself in the situation a few hundred thousand times already, that I wanted to respond to something, either LS Chat or a /tell directed to me, but COULDN'T because I was midfight and every second I waste chatting is dmg loss in the fight and would lenghten the duration of the fight, which I don't like so most of the time I decided to not respond until the battle is over.

And I DON'T LIKE THIS! Sorry I'm not a @#%^ing robot who PTs with people and has no problem with staying silent for 3h of grinding...if I PT with people it is not solely for the reason of "efficient SP gain" its also to have more FUN while playing...and sorry I don't have fun if I grind in a group and nobody talks even a @#%^ing word, because they feel obliged to spam their dumb standard attack to not waste any dmg.

Olorinus you're whole "pessimistic" feeling about the last letter from the producer is completely contradicting anyway...there are things you don't like and you don't want to see implemented in the game when the fact is, it would make the game better!! Not for everyone, but overall the game gains a whole lot more in playability and "fun" and sorry this is what I want. I also like the fact you're talking about "efficiency" when in fact you don't really seem to care about it going by your ranks and therefore your playtime. I'm not far from getting my 4th R50 and sorry I rather be able to chat while grinding/getting SP for whatever class I play, instead of being "efficient"...

Efficiency matters in endgame, not during the average day of playing...it is supposed to be fun, not work.

PLUS: Way to go to ignore the fact that PS3 players won't be able to voice chat while playing, what are they supposed to do if they have to coomunicate with each other during battles?

Quote:

If I want my hands free - I wouldn't be playing a frigging video game!


The simple difference between a video game and an MMORPG is...in every video game you can just pause the game and do whatever you have to do right in that moment...how many times did you find yourself in the situation that the phone was ringing but you couldn't answer right away or even at all, because you were "busy" in an MMORPG doing something that requires your pressence? I find myself in that situation in FFXIV a lot more than in any other MMORPG I played...if its endgame stuff its one thing...but when I'm fighting "08/15 leve mob No.342234897", why shouldn't I?

And the thing about people not exploring their different attacks if they just spam standard...thats just nonsense. The only reason to spam standard attacks right now is to gather TP...I got 4 different standard attacks as a GLA...and only 2 of those are even viable to use...but in fact I only use them because I need TP, so whats the point of Standard attacks? Cooldowns and TP Moves is what should make the battle engaging...not spamming one and the same attack over and over to be able to use them.

Edited, Feb 20th 2011 4:16pm by Shezard

Edited, Feb 20th 2011 4:21pm by Shezard
#93 Feb 20 2011 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
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I would prefer SE keep the fighting system the way it is. Mainly because that is the system that I am used to. There is nothing wrong with the current system, it is just different.
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#94 Feb 20 2011 at 9:24 PM Rating: Good
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jones6 wrote:
Wow I am shocked so many people want auto attack. That is not an interesting choice to me. For me games should be about making decisions, not about some sort of computer fights for me. If I wanted to monitor increasing numbers that I have no control over I would probably just look at the national debt.


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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#95 Feb 20 2011 at 9:43 PM Rating: Decent
jones6 wrote:
Wow I am shocked so many people want auto attack. That is not an interesting choice to me. For me games should be about making decisions, not about some sort of computer fights for me. If I wanted to monitor increasing numbers that I have no control over I would probably just look at the national debt.


How is pushing the same button repeatedly to gain TP making a decision? I guess you could argue that you are deciding to attack, however I would reply by saying you decided that already when you went into active mode. Personally, I would prefer to have more time to make more important decisions in a party, like coordinate a Battle Regimen, or talk about this: CLICK HERE.

...yeah I went there. :)
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#96 Feb 20 2011 at 10:22 PM Rating: Good
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How is pushing the same button repeatedly to gain TP making a decision? I guess you could argue that you are deciding to attack, however I would reply by saying you decided that already when you went into active mode.


It is a decision each time you select the attack. As I've already pointed out, the problem here is not that you have to actually press the button over and over, nor is it that there is no auto-attack-- the problem is that the gameplay is so lacking in complexity that using the same attack over and over is actually a viable strategy.

Granted auto-attack would turn the game from a boring nuisance of a game to simply a boring game.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#97 Feb 20 2011 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
I think what people are failing to understand is that introducing an auto-attack into the current system (somehow) and leaving everything else the same isn't what is going to happen. They will not just add an auto-attack, there are too many -normal- attacks in some cases (for example, Lancer has Light Thrust, Heavy Thrust, Pierce, and Full Thrust) Personally, a lot of these -normal- attacks are completely useless in the current battle system.

Having a normal attack with an increased stamina cost, but giving a Bind effect is useless since the Bind wears off as soon as the monster is hit again. It's like holding on to the rear seat-belt assembly of a 1995 Honda Accord just in case you come across someone who might need it. It may be useful, but only in a very rare situation.

They could stand to introduce an auto attack, remove a lot of the unnecessary -normal- attacks, and perhaps offer -normal- attack upgrades (built into weapons maybe?). This frees up space on your Action Bar for more important abilities/spells/weaponskills and removes a distracting, repetitive, and needless action from battling.

Adding an auto-attack is just a step in the direction the Battle System will be headed. I foresee quite a few game changing modifications to the Battle System over the next few months.
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#98 Feb 20 2011 at 10:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think what people are failing to understand is that introducing an auto-attack into the current system (somehow) and leaving everything else the same isn't what is going to happen. They will not just add an auto-attack, there are too many -normal- attacks in some cases (for example, Lancer has Light Thrust, Heavy Thrust, Pierce, and Full Thrust) Personally, a lot of these -normal- attacks are completely useless in the current battle system.


The problem is that all attacks are essentially normal attacks, and they're not useless-- they're totally overpowered, in the sense that you -must- use them. People use them because they're the best things to use.

And therein lies the fundamental problem with simply removing them. The normal attacks reflect how poor the balance is between abilities. When you take them away, you're just left with fewer abilities that are just as poorly balanced. You'll still end up using the same abilities over and over, just not as often.

Ultimately there is no point in adding auto-attack in an attempt to address the problem of using the same ability over and over. There are only two solutions to that problem: timers (the easy way that most games use) or balance (the more difficult way that actually requires players to make tough decisions about which ability is better to use in a given situation).

Don't get me wrong: auto-attack would be better than nothing, but pretty much only because it will allow you to free up a little time to chat and such. It's not going to make the gameplay any more engaging, and it will make the gameplay very similar to FFXI and WoW, which begs the question... why not just play one of them instead?
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#99 Feb 20 2011 at 11:11 PM Rating: Decent
Kachi wrote:
The problem is that all attacks are essentially normal attacks, and they're not useless-- they're totally overpowered, in the sense that you -must- use them. People use them because they're the best things to use.


Actually you don't have to. You can pump INT/MND/PIE on Gla/Pug/Mar/Lan/Arc and use nukes/debuffs/buffs/cures exclusively. Additionally you can completely ignore that your a mage and use nothing but melee on con/thm. This aside, being -overpowered- is a fairly convincing excuse to remove them and introduce a delayed auto-attack.

Kachi wrote:
And therein lies the fundamental problem with simply removing them. The normal attacks reflect how poor the balance is between abilities. When you take them away, you're just left with fewer abilities that are just as poorly balanced. You'll still end up using the same abilities over and over, just not as often.

As I said, it is just a step in the right direction. Remove the -overpowered- normal attacks, adjust weaponskills, alter TP gain.

Kachi wrote:
Ultimately there is no point in adding auto-attack in an attempt to address the problem of using the same ability over and over. There are only two solutions to that problem: timers (the easy way that most games use) or balance (the more difficult way that actually requires players to make tough decisions about which ability is better to use in a given situation).

They are not adding auto-attack to prevent a player from using the same ability over and over. They are adding it to prevent a player from falling a sleep because they are too busy normal attacking to hold a conversation or getting carpal tunnel from hovering over the '1' key.

Kachi wrote:
Don't get me wrong: auto-attack would be better than nothing, but pretty much only because it will allow you to free up a little time to chat and such. It's not going to make the game-play any more engaging, and it will make the game-play very similar to FFXI and WoW, which begs the question... why not just play one of them instead?

Well it is hard to have nothing, no attack means no TP means no weaponskills. Sarcasm aside, it seems even you are conflicted on your opinion of it's implementation. Everything has it's pros and cons. Do you want a more social experience, while still having an efficient Battle System, or do you want monotony and a more efficient Battle System? It may not make game play more -engaging- as you said, but it will make it less annoying. Personally, making this game a bit more like FFXI would be a good thing. I don't want a clone, but refusing to use a tried, and proven system when the current system is in such shambles, seems a bit odd. Oh, and I don't like WoW, I found it simple and too cartoony. Nothing against you WoW players, (obviously Blizzard did something right), it's just not my cup of tea.

I had my issues with FFXI as well. However, the battle system was never one of them. In fact the battle system of FFXI was one of the best I have =personally= experienced. (Remember, that means from what I, me, myself, have experienced. I can't say nor will I deny that there is a better system being used. Just clarifying since I am sure someone will draw the wrong conclusion from that.)

Edited for grammar/spelling.

Edited, Feb 21st 2011 12:13am by StateAlchemist2
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#100 Feb 20 2011 at 11:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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I chose "Push-to-attack" but I would add a little asterisk here, the current system is boring. The solution is not to backpedal on an attempt to make a more compelling MMORPG combat system and make a boring system less interactive.

Having to actually input to attack isn't a bad thing in and of itself, combat just needs to be made more compelling, it's that simple. I'd like to see an overhaul of the queue system and basic attacks. Why not give us a variety of basic attacks to string together and create combos?

Short answer: Create more choices during combat and make those choices compelling and reactive.

Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
TerraSonicX wrote:
If SE actually decides to implement auto-attack, hopefully they give us the option to turn it off.


THis would please everyone but the Devs I think... I can't imagine the programming nightmare it would be to have both coded into the game in such a way that there isn't some kind of horrible bug. The only way I can see it happening is if they keep the Stamina Bar, but the way Yoshi-P was talking about drastically changing the Battle System, and who knows how the poll will turn out...it is feeling like the Stamina Bar may be scrapped. Replaced by what? No idea, but my 2 gil is on a more simplified FFXI-esque system with an auto-attack/delay. It would just be the most logical implementation. Although it would be interesting to see how exactly they -would- work it into the current system. >.>


Having a button you could press to toggle an attack as "Automatic" in that "if no other action is queued, execute this when the appropriate stamina is reached" would actually not be incredibly difficult. In fact, it wouldn't be very difficult at all.

It's not a solution that actually makes the game fun though. Whichever direction they take, auto-attack or not, they really have to look at what will actually make the game enjoyable. I agree with an above poster when I say: If I wanted to have my hands free, I would not be playing a video game.

When I first heard about levequests, my first thought was bite-sized 30-60 minute adventures where I'd team up with friends and battle some foe(s) a la Monster Hunter. What we got instead was some mechanics that sit in some nebulous zone between traditional MMORPGs like WoW and FFXI and online action RPGs like Phantasy Star and Monster Hunter.

Taking a step backwards towards traditional MMORPGs would be the easy solution, as they'd have to take a flying leap forward to make this battle system stand up to real action MMOs. Right now it's too much in the gray area, on one hand I'm constantly micro-managing my actions which are on a long scrolling bar, if I'm going to play a game where I need to use actions on a 1:1 basis, I.E. no queue and no auto-attack, they need to be rigged to buttons and button combinations.

Block needs to be this button, attack is this button, phalanx is both those buttons at the same time, etc. Enemy mechanics send mixed messages too, there's a huge number of moves that require us to dodge them. Problem is, these moves are often too fast and have very little tells. In Monster Hunter if a giant dragon is about to tail whip you, there's going to be a tell, a certain way they move so you know it's coming, like any good action game. In FFXI the "I'm about to do a TP move" was enough, we were often focused on very little if we were tanking particularly, other than dodging the enemies move, and it was a mechanic that showed up infrequently.

In FFXI gnats, cactuars, puks all require dodging, but you don't know what move is about to come up, and sure having a move be very difficult to dodge is great, but again there needs to be a tell. This is at odds heavily with moves that can't be dodge and are just dice rolls. I'm starting to ramble: My point is, at the moment FFXIV has one foot in action combat, and one foot in traditional RPG combat, and is not doing a good job of mixing the two. Pick a side and make it fun. You already tried to dazzle us with a hybrid of the two, but forgot to test how well it scaled I think.

Edited, Feb 20th 2011 9:46pm by RamseySylph
#101 Feb 20 2011 at 11:43 PM Rating: Decent
RamseySylph wrote:
Why not give us a variety of basic attacks to string together and create combos?

FFXIV already has that. It's called Battle Regimens.
RamseySylph wrote:
Create more choices during combat and make those choices compelling and reactive.

We already have too many choices during combat. You can use almost anything from any class on any other class.
Raging Strike, Ferocity, Bloodbath, Still Precision, Hawk's Eye, Cure/Sacrifice all compelling.
As far as reactive goes...Fracture, Phalanx, Jarring Strike, Simian Thrash, etc...all reactive.

We already have what your asking for, and it isn't working.
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