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POLL: Auto-Attack vs. Push-To-AttackFollow

#102 Feb 20 2011 at 11:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Actually you don't have to. You can pump INT/MND/PIE on Gla/Pug/Mar/Lan/Arc and use nukes/debuffs/buffs/cures exclusively. Additionally you can completely ignore that your a mage and use nothing but melee on con/thm. This aside, being -overpowered- is a fairly convincing excuse to remove them and introduce a delayed auto-attack.


Right, you don't have to if you want to suck-- hence, overpowered. However, removing overpowered abilities from the game completely where balance is lacking only assures that DIFFERENT abilities will be the overpowered ones. People are using normal attacks over and over because that's the best thing to do. Remove them, and people will do the new best thing. If those abilities aren't balanced (and they aren't) it will be the exact same deal.

Rather than remove the abilities, they should just balance them, since they'll have to balance the abilities eventually anyway.

Quote:
They are not adding auto-attack to prevent a player from using the same ability over and over. They are adding it to prevent a player from falling a sleep because they are too busy normal attacking to hold a conversation or getting carpal tunnel from hovering over the '1' key.


I've already said this, but not everybody understands that this fix isn't going to fix nearly all that ails the battle system.

Quote:
Well it is hard to have nothing, no attack means no TP means no weaponskills. Sarcasm aside, it seems even you are conflicted on your opinion of it's implementation. Everything has it's pros and cons. Do you want a more social experience, while still having an efficient Battle System, or do you want monotony and a more efficient Battle System? It may not make game play more -engaging- as you said, but it will make it less annoying. Personally, making this game a bit more like FFXI would be a good thing. I don't want a clone, but refusing to use a tried, and proven system when the current system is in such shambles, seems a bit odd. Oh, and I don't like WoW, I found it simple and too cartoony. Nothing against you WoW players, (obviously Blizzard did something right), it's just not my cup of tea.


Sorry, I thought it was obvious that when I said "nothing" I meant "no changes." I think you haven't actually read my other posts, because I've already answered those questions. I don't like WoW, either, for the record. But I'm not actually complaining about FFXI or WoW-- I'm just saying that if you want a battle system similar to theirs, you should probably be playing one of them, since they're much more fleshed out overall.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#103 Feb 20 2011 at 11:58 PM Rating: Good
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Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Why not give us a variety of basic attacks to string together and create combos?

FFXIV already has that. It's called Battle Regimens.
RamseySylph wrote:
Create more choices during combat and make those choices compelling and reactive.

We already have too many choices during combat. You can use almost anything from any class on any other class.
Raging Strike, Ferocity, Bloodbath, Still Precision, Hawk's Eye, Cure/Sacrifice all compelling.
As far as reactive goes...Fracture, Phalanx, Jarring Strike, Simian Thrash, etc...all reactive.

We already have what your asking for, and it isn't working.


Smiley: glare

No, no we don't.

I apologize if my comment about "stringing attacks together to create combos" wasn't clear. I don't mean with other players to create skillchain-esque attacks.

I'm talking about stringing your own attacks together to make combos. For instance, light, light, heavy = "Insert name of move here." Light, heavy, light, light = "Insert name of move here." etc. I could expand on this, I mention later in my post that one of the problems right now is that the game straddles a line between action MMO and traditional MMO, and that if they decide to take the action route, we need to lose the "action bar" route and instead assign buttons to moves. In which case, many moves could be adjusted from traditional TP draining weaponskills to combos. Light Slash > Light Slash > Heavy Slash = Red Lotus Blade etc.

Regarding having choices and reactive moves. You're right there is a large quantity of moves to chose from.

I'm talking about quality of moves to chose from, and I'm talking specifically about standard TP/MP free attacks. The (valid) complaint about the current system not having an auto attack is that for many people presumably 50% of their time is spent using the same move over and over.

They may level up and use a new more powerful version of that standard attack, but they're not having to react and change their standard attack over the course of a single fight, or even leveling session. If we had a variety of standard attacks that did different things and were used in different situations such that there was a quantifiable gain in varying our attacks vs. just spamming "heavy attack" or whatever it is we normally use, that would make combat more compelling.

Example, monsters take defensive stances, give us a standard attack that is more potent to enemies that are blocking, a guard break if you will. Give us a standard attack that stacks something on the enemy that can be expired to create more damage, and a move that reduces defense for the next couple of standard attacks etc. There are a lot more options.

Reserving special effects for TP moves and MP moves means you have to make the decision to sacrifice pure damage or what have you for one of these effects, which will rarely be the best choice. And it doesn't fix the problem, people have a variety of things to do when they have generated TP, but while they're generating it they may as well be auto attacking.
#104 Feb 20 2011 at 11:59 PM Rating: Good
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We already have too many choices during combat. You can use almost anything from any class on any other class.
Raging Strike, Ferocity, Bloodbath, Still Precision, Hawk's Eye, Cure/Sacrifice all compelling.
As far as reactive goes...Fracture, Phalanx, Jarring Strike, Simian Thrash, etc...all reactive.

We already have what your asking for, and it isn't working.


You really don't have many choices during combat, because the abilities themselves are so badly unbalanced. If I ask you 100 different times if you'd rather have $1 or $100, you'll pick $100 every time. It's clearly the best decision. It wouldn't make a very good strategy game, would it?

It's incredibly rare that the decisions you do make will turn the tide of battle. As a result, there's little skill required and not much feeling of having to fight to survive.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#105 Feb 21 2011 at 12:03 AM Rating: Decent
Well then we agree that the auto-attack isn't the fix-all obviously. I still believe that with an auto-attack based system, balancing the remainder of the system is easier, rather than figuring out the mess we have on our hands at the moment. Weapon delay in an auto-attack environment is a good foundation for class differentiation, while still allowing a broad customization of specific skills.

Kachi wrote:
But I'm not actually complaining about FFXI or WoW-- I'm just saying that if you want a battle system similar to theirs, you should probably be playing one of them, since they're much more fleshed out overall.


I agree, that is if you just can't stand the current system enough to not play FFXIV at all. However, I am putting up with everything, just so I know I will have -somekind- of edge once the flood of newbies come in after all of the BS washes over. Tbh, I could careless what they do, I will play regardless. There isn't any other MMORPG that peaks my interest besides FFXIV at the moment.
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#106 Feb 21 2011 at 12:05 AM Rating: Decent
RamseySylph wrote:
Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Why not give us a variety of basic attacks to string together and create combos?

FFXIV already has that. It's called Battle Regimens.
RamseySylph wrote:
Create more choices during combat and make those choices compelling and reactive.

We already have too many choices during combat. You can use almost anything from any class on any other class.
Raging Strike, Ferocity, Bloodbath, Still Precision, Hawk's Eye, Cure/Sacrifice all compelling.
As far as reactive goes...Fracture, Phalanx, Jarring Strike, Simian Thrash, etc...all reactive.

We already have what your asking for, and it isn't working.


Smiley: glare

No, no we don't.

I apologize if my comment about "stringing attacks together to create combos" wasn't clear. I don't mean with other players to create skillchain-esque attacks.

I'm talking about stringing your own attacks together to make combos. For instance, light, light, heavy = "Insert name of move here." Light, heavy, light, light = "Insert name of move here." etc. I could expand on this, I mention later in my post that one of the problems right now is that the game straddles a line between action MMO and traditional MMO, and that if they decide to take the action route, we need to lose the "action bar" route and instead assign buttons to moves. In which case, many moves could be adjusted from traditional TP draining weaponskills to combos. Light Slash > Light Slash > Heavy Slash = Red Lotus Blade etc.

Regarding having choices and reactive moves. You're right there is a large quantity of moves to chose from.

I'm talking about quality of moves to chose from, and I'm talking specifically about standard TP/MP free attacks. The (valid) complaint about the current system not having an auto attack is that for many people presumably 50% of their time is spent using the same move over and over.

They may level up and use a new more powerful version of that standard attack, but they're not having to react and change their standard attack over the course of a single fight, or even leveling session. If we had a variety of standard attacks that did different things and were used in different situations such that there was a quantifiable gain in varying our attacks vs. just spamming "heavy attack" or whatever it is we normally use, that would make combat more compelling.

Example, monsters take defensive stances, give us a standard attack that is more potent to enemies that are blocking, a guard break if you will. Give us a standard attack that stacks something on the enemy that can be expired to create more damage, and a move that reduces defense for the next couple of standard attacks etc. There are a lot more options.

Reserving special effects for TP moves and MP moves means you have to make the decision to sacrifice pure damage or what have you for one of these effects, which will rarely be the best choice. And it doesn't fix the problem, people have a variety of things to do when they have generated TP, but while they're generating it they may as well be auto attacking.


Kachi wrote:
Quote:
We already have too many choices during combat. You can use almost anything from any class on any other class.
Raging Strike, Ferocity, Bloodbath, Still Precision, Hawk's Eye, Cure/Sacrifice all compelling.
As far as reactive goes...Fracture, Phalanx, Jarring Strike, Simian Thrash, etc...all reactive.

We already have what your asking for, and it isn't working.


You really don't have many choices during combat, because the abilities themselves are so badly unbalanced. If I ask you 100 different times if you'd rather have $1 or $100, you'll pick $100 every time. It's clearly the best decision. It wouldn't make a very good strategy game, would it?

It's incredibly rare that the decisions you do make will turn the tide of battle. As a result, there's little skill required and not much feeling of having to fight to survive.


Yes we do. I did not say they were -good- choices, just that we do -in fact- have many choices available to us.
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#107 Feb 21 2011 at 12:08 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
I'm talking about stringing your own attacks together to make combos. For instance, light, light, heavy = "Insert name of move here." Light, heavy, light, light = "Insert name of move here." etc.


I would like to play Final Fantasy XIV not Final Fantasy: Street Fighter. :(
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Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
Data Center: Primal; Server: Ultros; Free Company: The Kraken Club; Grand Company: The Maelstrom; Chocobo: Kweh
#108 Feb 21 2011 at 12:09 AM Rating: Good
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3,962 posts
Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
Weapon delay in an auto-attack environment is a good foundation for class differentiation, while still allowing a broad customization of specific skills.


Perhaps, but it's a boring and archaic way. "Do you want to feel like you're doing something when you play your job, or would you rather play picture in picture and watch TV"

I don't want to derail the topic, but I don't think "class differentiation" is the way they ought to go either. FFXI was the "job system" let this be the "action swap system" (See: Materia, Sphere Grid, Magicite, Junctions) We don't need distinct classes, we need distinct roles.

Allow us to assemble our own classes from building blocks. Unbelievably difficult to balance for multi-player, so it probably won't happen. But it would set FFXIV apart from any other MMO.


You are right that a turn based system would be easier with their current system. Too much would have to change for compelling action based gameplay I believe. They could take this direction, it's still early enough. But it would be a much bigger investment.

Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
Quote:
I'm talking about stringing your own attacks together to make combos. For instance, light, light, heavy = "Insert name of move here." Light, heavy, light, light = "Insert name of move here." etc.


I would like to play Final Fantasy XIV not Final Fantasy: Street Fighter. :(


You do realize there's an edit button, and you can quote and respond to multiple posts in one post right?

Anyways: Yes, because fighting games are the only games to ever use combos. Either you are some kind of fanatically devoted to traditional turn based RPGs or traditional auto attack MMOs kind of gamer or you've lived under a rock. I mean there are entire classes built around chaining combos even in some traditional MMOs like LOTRO (See: Warden).

The fact is in an action based combat system where you can't sit there and make a long drawn out decision about what move you want to chose from a big *** menu, you have to be able to accomplish what you want to do in a few button presses. That or have a controller with 50 buttons on it.

Since the later is unwieldy and ridiculous designers must do a lot with a little, combos allow a large set of moves to be adapted to a small number of buttons. If pressing A results in one kind of attack, pressing AB results in another kind of attack and pressing B and THEN A results in yet a third kind of attack, you've now increased the amount of attacks to button ration by 3.

If your argument is that you want to make slow tactical decisions about combat, then no non-auto attack system that is actually fun would appease you. And I think I speak for a lot of the gaming populace other than hardcore super-conservative MMO players when I say, I'm kind of sick of letting the game play itself.

Edited, Feb 20th 2011 10:16pm by RamseySylph
#109 Feb 21 2011 at 12:15 AM Rating: Decent
RamseySylph wrote:
Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
Weapon delay in an auto-attack environment is a good foundation for class differentiation, while still allowing a broad customization of specific skills.


Perhaps, but it's a boring and archaic way. "Do you want to feel like you're doing something when you play your job, or would you rather play picture in picture and watch TV"

I don't want to derail the topic, but I don't think "class differentiation" is the way they ought to go either. FFXI was the "job system" let this be the "action swap system" (See: Materia, Sphere Grid, Magicite, Junctions) We don't need distinct classes, we need distinct roles.

Allow us to assemble our own classes from building blocks. Unbelievably difficult to balance for multi-player, so it probably won't happen. But it would set FFXIV apart from any other MMO.


You are right that a turn based system would be easier with their current system. Too much would have to change for compelling action based gameplay I believe. They could take this direction, it's still early enough. But it would be a much bigger investment.


There comes a point in which customization becomes an obstacle. The developers make the game around core mechanics and strategy. They need definable variables to formulate the strategies that are viable in given situations. If all the variables are fluid, no obvious solution can be found and thus you will get more trouble than you have now.
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#110 Feb 21 2011 at 12:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Yes we do. I did not say they were -good- choices, just that we do -in fact- have many choices available to us.


Well, the point is that it's kind of pointless to have a lot of clearly bad choices. The way to win shouldn't be too obvious, and currently it's about as obvious as could be: do the same thing over and over, every time.

Quote:
I would like to play Final Fantasy XIV not Final Fantasy: Street Fighter. :(


You probably wouldn't dislike it as much as you might imagine. Xenogears, an old Square game, did something like this, and a great deal of players, on this board no less, consider it one of their all-time favorites.

It doesn't necessarily need to be like that of an action game. Though frankly recent history seems to favor SE for action RPGs (Kingdom Hearts, The World Ends With You, Crisis Core, Dissidia) over traditional RPGs, at least in terms of quality games.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#111 Feb 21 2011 at 12:24 AM Rating: Decent
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Yes we do. I did not say they were -good- choices, just that we do -in fact- have many choices available to us.


Well, the point is that it's kind of pointless to have a lot of clearly bad choices. The way to win shouldn't be too obvious, and currently it's about as obvious as could be: do the same thing over and over, every time.

Quote:
I would like to play Final Fantasy XIV not Final Fantasy: Street Fighter. :(


You probably wouldn't dislike it as much as you might imagine. Xenogears, an old Square game, did something like this, and a great deal of players, on this board no less, consider it one of their all-time favorites.

It doesn't necessarily need to be like that of an action game. Though frankly recent history seems to favor SE for action RPGs (Kingdom Hearts, The World Ends With You, Crisis Core, Dissidia) over traditional RPGs, at least in terms of quality games.


I'll have to check out Xenogears. As far as other SE RPGs, the only prob with that is they are offline. If they could truly implement that kind of fighting in a MMO? Yeah, I can see it being fairly epic. Doubt it will happen here and now.
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#112 Feb 21 2011 at 12:26 AM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
Weapon delay in an auto-attack environment is a good foundation for class differentiation, while still allowing a broad customization of specific skills.


Perhaps, but it's a boring and archaic way. "Do you want to feel like you're doing something when you play your job, or would you rather play picture in picture and watch TV"

I don't want to derail the topic, but I don't think "class differentiation" is the way they ought to go either. FFXI was the "job system" let this be the "action swap system" (See: Materia, Sphere Grid, Magicite, Junctions) We don't need distinct classes, we need distinct roles.

Allow us to assemble our own classes from building blocks. Unbelievably difficult to balance for multi-player, so it probably won't happen. But it would set FFXIV apart from any other MMO.


You are right that a turn based system would be easier with their current system. Too much would have to change for compelling action based gameplay I believe. They could take this direction, it's still early enough. But it would be a much bigger investment.


There comes a point in which customization becomes an obstacle. The developers make the game around core mechanics and strategy. They need definable variables to formulate the strategies that are viable in given situations. If all the variables are fluid, no obvious solution can be found and thus you will get more trouble than you have now.


I think you're confused, a more customizable system does not create "fluid" variables. It's much easier to create a set number of classes with a set number of abilities and compare them directly because your variables are all in neat packages. You can quantify them and balance a huge table of variables against another huge table of variables.

When you can mix and match them freely the manner in which you create balance is very different, albeit much more difficult. That being said, having a large number of free roaming variables does not make them fluid, they're not constantly changing, even though it may seem like that as one attempts to balance such a large number of concepts. At the moment though, this game is again straddling a line between a free system and a class system and doing neither well.

What happens is there are certain abilities that are more or less required from one class in order for another class to be at it's maximum potential. A very large amount of abilities are worthless cross class, and the only balancing that really happens is that if a move becomes far too powerful when used cross class it's nerfed.

This is a case of them having to chose a direction, more class distinction or almost none. More is easy, but less is the road less traveled, and again would make the game more unique. They heralded the armoury system above all else as the unique mechanic of the game. Sacrificing it entirely may be necessary, but is definitely not the desirable route.

Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Yes we do. I did not say they were -good- choices, just that we do -in fact- have many choices available to us.


Well, the point is that it's kind of pointless to have a lot of clearly bad choices. The way to win shouldn't be too obvious, and currently it's about as obvious as could be: do the same thing over and over, every time.

Quote:
I would like to play Final Fantasy XIV not Final Fantasy: Street Fighter. :(


You probably wouldn't dislike it as much as you might imagine. Xenogears, an old Square game, did something like this, and a great deal of players, on this board no less, consider it one of their all-time favorites.

It doesn't necessarily need to be like that of an action game. Though frankly recent history seems to favor SE for action RPGs (Kingdom Hearts, The World Ends With You, Crisis Core, Dissidia) over traditional RPGs, at least in terms of quality games.


I'll have to check out Xenogears. As far as other SE RPGs, the only prob with that is they are offline. If they could truly implement that kind of fighting in a MMO? Yeah, I can see it being fairly epic. Doubt it will happen here and now.


The viability of these sorts of systems existing in an MMO is not a question, please see: TERA and Blade & Soul if you're interested in true MMOs actually incorporating real time action gameplay. The amount that SE is willing to invest and alter FFXIV is up for debate though. An overhaul to implement more action based mechanics would be costly, time consuming and require faster and more stable infrastructure.

The delay between actions happening and being reflected on another player's screen is absolutely huge right now. I play with my girlfriend often and we're always yards away from where we are on eachother's screens.

Edited, Feb 20th 2011 10:30pm by RamseySylph
#113 Feb 21 2011 at 12:26 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
There comes a point in which customization becomes an obstacle. The developers make the game around core mechanics and strategy. They need definable variables to formulate the strategies that are viable in given situations. If all the variables are fluid, no obvious solution can be found and thus you will get more trouble than you have now.


I completely disagree. The only challenge to customization is balance, and for FFXIV they have adopted (perhaps unknowingly) an ideal system to promote ability balance-- that is, that equipping abilities is associated with a cost. For example, assume that to equip Light Strike, you wouldn't have enough points left to equip a decent healing ability. This system is perfect for easy balance because it doesn't require complex coding changes-- just a simple value change.

But even if they didn't take advantage of this system and actually balanced abilities in earnest, so that they are legitimately of similar power-- that's kind of their job. It's not "too hard." It's kind of the most important thing they could do.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#114 Feb 21 2011 at 12:35 AM Rating: Decent
RamseySylph wrote:
I think you're confused, a more customizable system does not create "fluid" variables. It's much easier to create a set number of classes with a set number of abilities and compare them directly because your variables are all in neat packages. You can quantify them and balance a huge table of variables against another huge table of variables.

When you can mix and match them freely the manner in which you create balance is very different, albeit much more difficult. That being said, having a large number of free roaming variables does not make them fluid, they're not constantly changing, even though it may seem like that as one attempts to balance such a large number of concepts. At the moment though, this game is again straddling a line between a free system and a class system and doing neither well.

What happens is there are certain abilities that are more or less required from one class in order for another class to be at it's maximum potential. A very large amount of abilities are worthless cross class, and the only balancing that really happens is that if a move becomes far too powerful when used cross class it's nerfed.

This is a case of them having to chose a direction, more class distinction or almost none. More is easy, but less is the road less traveled, and again would make the game more unique. They heralded the armoury system above all else as the unique mechanic of the game. Sacrificing it entirely may be necessary, but is definitely not the desirable route.


I believe that we are thinking the exact same thing just in two completely different ways, because I agree with everything you just said.
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#115 Feb 21 2011 at 12:36 AM Rating: Good
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I'll have to check out Xenogears. As far as other SE RPGs, the only prob with that is they are offline. If they could truly implement that kind of fighting in a MMO? Yeah, I can see it being fairly epic. Doubt it will happen here and now.


Oh, they definitely could. None of those games have particularly taxing hardware requirements-- they're all handheld/PS2 titles. Dissidia already allows for online play. FFXIV already has a lot of impressive stuff in place that really shows off the raw coding power of the game, but it's weighed down by a lot of utterly stupid decisions.

Quote:
This is a case of them having to chose a direction, more class distinction or almost none. More is easy, but less is the road less traveled, and again would make the game more unique. They heralded the armoury system above all else as the unique mechanic of the game. Sacrificing it entirely may be necessary, but is definitely not the desirable route.


Case in point: gimping cross-class abilities. Utterly stupid. As Ramsey says, this teeters between class definition and fluidity, ultimately sacrificing the strengths of either system. Personally I would love to see them go the route of no classes, except beyond their initial plan that class is essentially just a matter of what weapon you're using. In this way, abilities are already much more evenly balanced; however, they still have a lot of balancing they'll need to do one way or the other.

I wouldn't even mind if they further removed class distinction so that you don't actually learn abilities from leveling your class, but instead learn abilities through the completion of quests/leves/etc. If this game is just going to copy concepts that have already been done over and over, it's never going to rise beyond a very small niche of players... never even be more successful than FFXI.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#116 Feb 21 2011 at 12:37 AM Rating: Decent
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
There comes a point in which customization becomes an obstacle. The developers make the game around core mechanics and strategy. They need definable variables to formulate the strategies that are viable in given situations. If all the variables are fluid, no obvious solution can be found and thus you will get more trouble than you have now.


I completely disagree. The only challenge to customization is balance, and for FFXIV they have adopted (perhaps unknowingly) an ideal system to promote ability balance-- that is, that equipping abilities is associated with a cost. For example, assume that to equip Light Strike, you wouldn't have enough points left to equip a decent healing ability. This system is perfect for easy balance because it doesn't require complex coding changes-- just a simple value change.

But even if they didn't take advantage of this system and actually balanced abilities in earnest, so that they are legitimately of similar power-- that's kind of their job. It's not "too hard." It's kind of the most important thing they could do.


The problem here is that it is the developers job to balance the game. Not the players. I don't enjoy being told that I can use almost anything on any class, but I can't use everything from my class at once, and if I do want something from another class, I have to give up even more of my class' defining qualities.

EDIT:
Afterthought:
I want my class to be defineable. Not necessarily how I choose to play it. For example: A Red Mage in FFXI was used for debuffs/heals etc. However, I wanted to do my own thing, so I played RDM/RNG using a Failnaught a lot of hard to get gear, a K. Club and became a melee spamming 1K+ Sidewinders. Did I get funny looks? Was it hard for me to find a merit PT doing that? Yeah. But once I got there and people seen what I could do, they didn't complain. So whn I get on FFXIV now, I am failing to feel what my -expected- role is besides random dd, or random healer, or random-person-who-tries-to-tank.

Edited, Feb 21st 2011 1:44am by StateAlchemist2

Edited, Feb 21st 2011 1:45am by StateAlchemist2
____________________________
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
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#117 Feb 21 2011 at 1:33 AM Rating: Good
***
3,962 posts
Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
I don't enjoy being told that I can use almost anything on any class, but I can't use everything from my class at once, and if I do want something from another class, I have to give up even more of my class' defining qualities.


Definitely didn't play Blue Mage?

Kachi wrote:
The only challenge to customization is balance, and for FFXIV they have adopted (perhaps unknowingly) an ideal system to promote ability balance-- that is, that equipping abilities is associated with a cost. For example, assume that to equip Light Strike, you wouldn't have enough points left to equip a decent healing ability. This system is perfect for easy balance because it doesn't require complex coding changes-- just a simple value change.


The more I think about it the more I think taking a hint from how Blue Mage was handled would be the best route. Blue Mages equipped their spells with set points just like abilities are equipped in FFXIV; however, spells also gave stat boosts and when combined properly activated passive traits. Take this to the next level.

What is the upside of having a free form system? Customization, the point is that we should be able to create unique characters that tackle various distinct roles in interesting and unique ways. Classes and roles do not need to be synonymous.

Currently we pick and chose abilities based on the merit of the ability alone, not whether it fits in with the rest of our abilities in form or function. With free roam to pick any ability we chose we will always chose those pinnacle abilities from each class, the ones that really shine. With fundamental mechanical differences in the way certain classes play and the way gear and stats work, what ends up happening is, sure there is a lot of abilities to chose from, but there are only a handful of abilities one should actually set on any given class.

What is the solution then?

Provide incentives and bonuses for setting abilities with a particular role in mind.

What does this entail? It's actually rather simple. If we focus on setting healing abilities, give us passive increases to curing potency, cast time, MP, things that will make us a stronger healer. If we focus on defensive abilities give us reduction to damage taken, etc etc. Either completely replace the existing trait system or reconcile the two systems together. And I don't believe these passive traits and tiers need to be reserved for taking specific trinity based paths. Equipping healing spells might reduce one's enmity generation but a passive trait might cancel that and increase enmity generated from heals for those wishing to take a paladin-esque approach. Setting both offensive magic and offensive melee moves might give traits that lend themselves to a mixed approach, generating TP from spell damage etc.

Furthermore, stats need to matter. It is remarkable to me how useless stats were made in an attempt to combat the fact that they gave their players free reign to change their own base stats. All they in fact should have done was increased the amount of stats given by gear so as to largely overshadow a player's personal stats. Instead we have a tiny stat boosts on our gear for stats that are already rather worthless.

What do stats and gear have to do with the suggested trait system? Everything, the idea behind the trait system is to incentivize the player to have a distinct ROLE in mind. Gear should compliment this entirely. The answer is not to make more class specific gear, but to make more ROLE supporting gear. If I choose to wear plate armor as a mage I should see a big drop in my magic potency and a large boost in my defense, if I choose to wear robes on my gladiator I should see much more potent magic at the expense of my physical damage mitigation, etc.

Freedom of stat distribution could be done away with almost entirely, and instead have stats derive primarily from the gear we wear and the abilities we equip. If we choose to equip defensive abilities and plate armor, we should be strong tanks. If we choose to equip healing magic and robes we should be strong healers, regardless of what weapon we wiled. Final Fantasy has a history of interesting hybrid characters. Don't make us don very specific classes, let us chose very specific roles that we may swap through depending on what gear and abilities we have available to us.

I think in the end it would please everyone if implemented properly. People are afraid of homogeneity, for the most part won't most adventurers choose a hybrid lifestyle? Well yes, for general solo and low man adventuring having a variety of abilities at your disposal is often going to be the best approach. There's nothing bad about this though. Choosing light leather armor as a gladiator, and setting some healing and support abilities seems appropriate for adventuring, while donning a thick metal cuirass and focusing on powerful defensive abilities to keep a dragon's attention as my company and I dispatch it .

In this way gear and abilities become about preparing for the situation ahead, as they ought to. "Situational" was a term so fondly associated with gear in FFXI, but gear was swapped on the fly per ability. Let us swap our gear and abilities as we prepare to don a new role for a new battle.

In end game where tiers of potent passive traits would be necessary to perform a role properly one would have to chose a distinct role. Someone sporting a mixture of healing magic, offensive magic and offensive melee moves would not be able to heal and keep up with the damage on a tank during a huge raid where someone setting specifically healing magic and wearing robes would. The first character would either don the role of a jack of all trades "filling in the gaps" character or have to set themselves to more of a specific role for those endgame encounters.

Those who want to take the role of FF's more distinct classes would have their answer as well. If one could actually be a gladiator and wear leather and cloth and set magic in tiers that would make them able to be used potently, one has the look and style of play as a Red Mage. A Marauder mixing Thaumaturgy and Conjury properly could achieve the look and style of play of a Dark Knight. These things seemed possible with the armoury system but it's inherent flaws prevent it. With these adjustments these goals could be achieved and more. Specific hybrid gear could even be created that supports certain amalgamations in both aesthetic and stats. Even more though, is possible, you might suggest "why do I need to level so many skills in order to assemble the class I want to play, why not just make Red Mage a class?" This system allows even greater freedom, wield the bow and focus on healing magic a la Rosa from FFIV, focus on hand to hand weapons and elemental magic a la "Assassin" from FFTA2 etc.

If I see a girl run by with a sword and a buckler and some robes on and then I see her flinging fire balls and striking with her sword it's very obvious to me what her role is, she's a hybrid magic swordsman. If I see a guy fighting a big dragon with a lance wearing plate armor and using defensive moves and parrying attacks I know what his role is, he's focused on two handed tanking.

Let not the weapon we hold define everything that we are. Let everything that we are; our appearance, our abilities, define us. If our gear and skills defined our roles that would be best.


Kachi wrote:
[quote]I wouldn't even mind if they further removed class distinction so that you don't actually learn abilities from leveling your class, but instead learn abilities through the completion of quests/leves/etc. If this game is just going to copy concepts that have already been done over and over, it's never going to rise beyond a very small niche of players... never even be more successful than FFXI.


Final Fantasy 9/FFTA, let us learn abilities from our weapons. We must equip a burning rod and Fire becomes available, accumulate a certain amount of SP and master that ability. Don't make physical levels less important, make them more important. And put physical level requirements on weapons. A drastic change, but sometimes drastic measures are necessary. It's such a distinctly different route to take than most MMOs I think it would be a breath of fresh air. Training with a specific weapon to unlock a specific ability. Collecting and mastering many abilities. it fits the system very well, and it also allows the player to pursue the specific abilities they want, instead of having to level through many levels of junk just to get one thing they want. Clear out the chaff, it would really make the design team have to consider the merit of an ability, as no ability would really function as "filler" the way they do now.

Edited, Feb 20th 2011 11:51pm by RamseySylph
#118 Feb 21 2011 at 2:34 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
All fine ideas-- there are a number of ways they could go about it, and ultimately I don't think the implementation matters all that much so long as they stick to the key principles. It is consistently vexing, though, to see SE implement so many good mechanics haphazardly, as if they don't even know what they're doing right and what they're doing wrong. e.g., when I heard they were using a system like that of BLU, I was optimistic... and then they completely ignored its value. I played Dissidia, and became very optimistic about the gameplay and character customization... and they didn't deliver at all. It really seems that they don't have any kind of formulaic approach to game design, and rather just go with a trial and error approach.

Whenever you decide to staff a recreational psychologist, SE, you feel free to look me up.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#119 Feb 21 2011 at 9:04 AM Rating: Decent
44 posts
It baffles me that the reason people want auto-attack is because they want to chat with their LS while they fight... wow... combat so slow you can carry on a conversation while you fight? That would be a sad sad day.

Edited, Feb 21st 2011 10:15am by Seikninkuru
#120 Feb 21 2011 at 9:23 AM Rating: Decent
***
3,416 posts
Quote:
I played Dissidia, and became very optimistic about the gameplay and character customization... and they didn't deliver at all.


Well, that's just like, your opinion, man.
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#121 Feb 21 2011 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
Seikninkuru wrote:
It baffles me that the number one reason people want auto-attack is because they want to chat with their LS while they fight... wow... combat so slow you can carry on a conversation while you fight? That would be a sad sad day.


I don't know where you get your information, but that is not what is being said in this thread. It is a sad day, but only because you decided to make some asinine comment. Your basically saying that the majority of people playing are down right stupid. I am fairly sure that most people would take offense to that.

Auto-attack has nothing to do with conversations in a party. It has to do with removing unnecessary actions as a part of an effort to adjust a battle system that does not promote the kind of party-play the dev team intended.
____________________________
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#122 Feb 21 2011 at 9:36 AM Rating: Decent
***
3,416 posts
Quote:
It has to do with removing unnecessary actions as a part of an effort to adjust a battle system that does not promote the kind of party-play the dev team intended.


Instead of, y'know, doing something about that? "We rushed the game and because of that the features are not working as intended- so let's scrap them and implement something else half-assedly instead."

I hope that was not a comment to defend their decision.

Edited, Feb 21st 2011 6:36pm by Hyanmen
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#123 Feb 21 2011 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
It has to do with removing unnecessary actions as a part of an effort to adjust a battle system that does not promote the kind of party-play the dev team intended.


Instead of, y'know, doing something about that? "We rushed the game and because of that the features are not working as intended- so let's scrap them and implement something else half-assedly instead."

I hope that was not a comment to defend their decision.

Edited, Feb 21st 2011 6:36pm by Hyanmen


I'm not defending their decision. There is no excuse for the way it is. But I also know they aren't going to modify it "half-assedly" as you say. They are pulling from the only tried-and-true method they have: FFXI. Given the situation, if they can't make it work they way it was supposed to, it isn't necessarily bad to fall back on something you know worked just fine. Whether or not it is a good idea to scrap the system in place of an auto-attack based FFXI-esque one, is not the issue. THe issue is, do we want to put up with a broken system for as long as it takes or them to figure out how to make it work the way they envisioned it, or do they want to put in place something they know works, and get the game running to a point to where people will be willing to subscribe.

They need to get the game working. Period. They can't afford to kick back and take their time making everything work like it was supposed to. Some things will be sacrificed, and I believe the current battle system is the biggest sacrifice they will make, especially since they have gotten a large amount of complaints about it from their JP player base, and I know SE is more concerned with pleasing them then EU/NA players.
____________________________
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
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#124 Feb 21 2011 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
**
821 posts
Kachi wrote:


Quote:
I would like to play Final Fantasy XIV not Final Fantasy: Street Fighter. :(


You probably wouldn't dislike it as much as you might imagine. Xenogears, an old Square game, did something like this, and a great deal of players, on this board no less, consider it one of their all-time favorites.


Because of its story, not because of its gameplay...
#125 Feb 21 2011 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
***
3,416 posts
Quote:
Given the situation, if they can't make it work they way it was supposed to


You're acting like they've even tried?

Granted, XI's combat worked "just fine"... in 2002. XI's rushed release worked just fine in 2002 too, now it made them get their asses handed to them. They have no idea whether it "works" or doesn't work, XI is simply no indicator of anything at this point. It only tells them that back then, certain things were acceptable that are not so today.

As long as they go down this route, nothing but on-par (and in 2011, better) combat system is not acceptable. And their whole game that has been built in a different way will be against them when they strive for that goal. At least by making the current system actually work things don't need to be perfect from the get-go. The novelty factor will take them far enough. It just can't be half-assed like the system is now. That is not acceptable.

--------

Honestly though, what the **** are they going to do with the combat system? The poll had a "spamming actions" option, so are they really going to go down the road of uninvolving gameplay? What else are we supposed to do? They better make this work like the Last Remnant with positioning and formations if they don't want to bore us with the new gameplay.

Edited, Feb 21st 2011 7:45pm by Hyanmen
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#126 Feb 21 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
970 posts
RamseySylph wrote:
Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
I don't enjoy being told that I can use almost anything on any class, but I can't use everything from my class at once, and if I do want something from another class, I have to give up even more of my class' defining qualities.


Definitely didn't play Blue Mage?

Kachi wrote:
The only challenge to customization is balance, and for FFXIV they have adopted (perhaps unknowingly) an ideal system to promote ability balance-- that is, that equipping abilities is associated with a cost. For example, assume that to equip Light Strike, you wouldn't have enough points left to equip a decent healing ability. This system is perfect for easy balance because it doesn't require complex coding changes-- just a simple value change.


The more I think about it the more I think taking a hint from how Blue Mage was handled would be the best route. Blue Mages equipped their spells with set points just like abilities are equipped in FFXIV; however, spells also gave stat boosts and when combined properly activated passive traits. Take this to the next level.

What is the upside of having a free form system? Customization, the point is that we should be able to create unique characters that tackle various distinct roles in interesting and unique ways. Classes and roles do not need to be synonymous.

Currently we pick and chose abilities based on the merit of the ability alone, not whether it fits in with the rest of our abilities in form or function. With free roam to pick any ability we chose we will always chose those pinnacle abilities from each class, the ones that really shine. With fundamental mechanical differences in the way certain classes play and the way gear and stats work, what ends up happening is, sure there is a lot of abilities to chose from, but there are only a handful of abilities one should actually set on any given class.

What is the solution then?

Provide incentives and bonuses for setting abilities with a particular role in mind.

What does this entail? It's actually rather simple. If we focus on setting healing abilities, give us passive increases to curing potency, cast time, MP, things that will make us a stronger healer. If we focus on defensive abilities give us reduction to damage taken, etc etc. Either completely replace the existing trait system or reconcile the two systems together. And I don't believe these passive traits and tiers need to be reserved for taking specific trinity based paths. Equipping healing spells might reduce one's enmity generation but a passive trait might cancel that and increase enmity generated from heals for those wishing to take a paladin-esque approach. Setting both offensive magic and offensive melee moves might give traits that lend themselves to a mixed approach, generating TP from spell damage etc.

Furthermore, stats need to matter. It is remarkable to me how useless stats were made in an attempt to combat the fact that they gave their players free reign to change their own base stats. All they in fact should have done was increased the amount of stats given by gear so as to largely overshadow a player's personal stats. Instead we have a tiny stat boosts on our gear for stats that are already rather worthless.

What do stats and gear have to do with the suggested trait system? Everything, the idea behind the trait system is to incentivize the player to have a distinct ROLE in mind. Gear should compliment this entirely. The answer is not to make more class specific gear, but to make more ROLE supporting gear. If I choose to wear plate armor as a mage I should see a big drop in my magic potency and a large boost in my defense, if I choose to wear robes on my gladiator I should see much more potent magic at the expense of my physical damage mitigation, etc.

Freedom of stat distribution could be done away with almost entirely, and instead have stats derive primarily from the gear we wear and the abilities we equip. If we choose to equip defensive abilities and plate armor, we should be strong tanks. If we choose to equip healing magic and robes we should be strong healers, regardless of what weapon we wiled. Final Fantasy has a history of interesting hybrid characters. Don't make us don very specific classes, let us chose very specific roles that we may swap through depending on what gear and abilities we have available to us.

I think in the end it would please everyone if implemented properly. People are afraid of homogeneity, for the most part won't most adventurers choose a hybrid lifestyle? Well yes, for general solo and low man adventuring having a variety of abilities at your disposal is often going to be the best approach. There's nothing bad about this though. Choosing light leather armor as a gladiator, and setting some healing and support abilities seems appropriate for adventuring, while donning a thick metal cuirass and focusing on powerful defensive abilities to keep a dragon's attention as my company and I dispatch it .

In this way gear and abilities become about preparing for the situation ahead, as they ought to. "Situational" was a term so fondly associated with gear in FFXI, but gear was swapped on the fly per ability. Let us swap our gear and abilities as we prepare to don a new role for a new battle.

In end game where tiers of potent passive traits would be necessary to perform a role properly one would have to chose a distinct role. Someone sporting a mixture of healing magic, offensive magic and offensive melee moves would not be able to heal and keep up with the damage on a tank during a huge raid where someone setting specifically healing magic and wearing robes would. The first character would either don the role of a jack of all trades "filling in the gaps" character or have to set themselves to more of a specific role for those endgame encounters.

Those who want to take the role of FF's more distinct classes would have their answer as well. If one could actually be a gladiator and wear leather and cloth and set magic in tiers that would make them able to be used potently, one has the look and style of play as a Red Mage. A Marauder mixing Thaumaturgy and Conjury properly could achieve the look and style of play of a Dark Knight. These things seemed possible with the armoury system but it's inherent flaws prevent it. With these adjustments these goals could be achieved and more. Specific hybrid gear could even be created that supports certain amalgamations in both aesthetic and stats. Even more though, is possible, you might suggest "why do I need to level so many skills in order to assemble the class I want to play, why not just make Red Mage a class?" This system allows even greater freedom, wield the bow and focus on healing magic a la Rosa from FFIV, focus on hand to hand weapons and elemental magic a la "Assassin" from FFTA2 etc.

If I see a girl run by with a sword and a buckler and some robes on and then I see her flinging fire balls and striking with her sword it's very obvious to me what her role is, she's a hybrid magic swordsman. If I see a guy fighting a big dragon with a lance wearing plate armor and using defensive moves and parrying attacks I know what his role is, he's focused on two handed tanking.

Let not the weapon we hold define everything that we are. Let everything that we are; our appearance, our abilities, define us. If our gear and skills defined our roles that would be best.


Kachi wrote:
[quote]I wouldn't even mind if they further removed class distinction so that you don't actually learn abilities from leveling your class, but instead learn abilities through the completion of quests/leves/etc. If this game is just going to copy concepts that have already been done over and over, it's never going to rise beyond a very small niche of players... never even be more successful than FFXI.


Final Fantasy 9/FFTA, let us learn abilities from our weapons. We must equip a burning rod and Fire becomes available, accumulate a certain amount of SP and master that ability. Don't make physical levels less important, make them more important. And put physical level requirements on weapons. A drastic change, but sometimes drastic measures are necessary. It's such a distinctly different route to take than most MMOs I think it would be a breath of fresh air. Training with a specific weapon to unlock a specific ability. Collecting and mastering many abilities. it fits the system very well, and it also allows the player to pursue the specific abilities they want, instead of having to level through many levels of junk just to get one thing they want. Clear out the chaff, it would really make the design team have to consider the merit of an ability, as no ability would really function as "filler" the way they do now.

Edited, Feb 20th 2011 11:51pm by RamseySylph

I like almost everything I quoted here. Players are asking for an auto attack over the current system. Because the current battle system is not properly implemented. And since auto attack worked in XI, the opinion is use it. Know this, no matter what SE does from this point. The population will rise some. However, the population will never surpass XI if it is just a shadow of it's predecessor. Now if SE named the game XI-2 from the beginning and followed that notion to the tee. Many current XI players would have transferred over. This is XIV, a game with massive potential which was stymied by a rushed launch with little balancing.

I don't see what was the problem with the Alpha system. It was way more exciting than the current system or auto attack.

You button mash you accuracy is good but damage whiffs.

You select precisely in the sweet spot on the power gauge and you got a mix of good accuracy and good power.

You overcharged the power gauge. You have a chance at maximum damage but your take a large dip in accuracy. Apply the power gauge to Conserve Mp, Nuke range, AoE range, tiering skills, damage mitigation, etc, the options are endless.

The alpha system properly balanced on the user end and on the monster end(telltale signs, variety, reactive traits,etc). Would have put hard target target tab battle system back on the forefront of MMO combat gold standard. It was abandoned far too early imo and I really wished it could be reexplored.
#127 Feb 21 2011 at 11:12 AM Rating: Decent
6 posts
Well people are spamming 111111 because they need to build tp.
My main concern with auto attack is how will battle regimens work then?
Would they be adding a new attack button or having light slash be used continuously (and therefore unable to enter the regimen with it?)

I'm fine with auto attack because in this games combat theres no reason not to have it. This isn't like DDO or Age of Conan where auto attack just doesn't work. This is a standard single target MMO with TP buildup. As someone pointed out earlier it helps in lag situations.
#128 Feb 21 2011 at 11:40 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,606 posts
If they go with an auto attack.. Couldn't it be something like Rogues in WoW? Rogues have an energy bar that functions almost exactly like the stamina bar. They also have a fairly low damage auto attack as well that uses no energy. Why not the same thing in FFXIV? A low damage auto attack that uses no stamina.

They could make an /autoattack on and /autoattack off too so you could choose.
#129 Feb 21 2011 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
****
9,526 posts
RamseySylph wrote:

Kachi wrote:
The only challenge to customization is balance, and for FFXIV they have adopted (perhaps unknowingly) an ideal system to promote ability balance-- that is, that equipping abilities is associated with a cost. For example, assume that to equip Light Strike, you wouldn't have enough points left to equip a decent healing ability. This system is perfect for easy balance because it doesn't require complex coding changes-- just a simple value change.


The more I think about it the more I think taking a hint from how Blue Mage was handled would be the best route. Blue Mages equipped their spells with set points just like abilities are equipped in FFXIV; however, spells also gave stat boosts and when combined properly activated passive traits. Take this to the next level.

What is the upside of having a free form system? Customization, the point is that we should be able to create unique characters that tackle various distinct roles in interesting and unique ways. Classes and roles do not need to be synonymous.

Currently we pick and chose abilities based on the merit of the ability alone, not whether it fits in with the rest of our abilities in form or function. With free roam to pick any ability we chose we will always chose those pinnacle abilities from each class, the ones that really shine. With fundamental mechanical differences in the way certain classes play and the way gear and stats work, what ends up happening is, sure there is a lot of abilities to chose from, but there are only a handful of abilities one should actually set on any given class.

What is the solution then?

Provide incentives and bonuses for setting abilities with a particular role in mind.

What does this entail? It's actually rather simple. If we focus on setting healing abilities, give us passive increases to curing potency, cast time, MP, things that will make us a stronger healer. If we focus on defensive abilities give us reduction to damage taken, etc etc. Either completely replace the existing trait system or reconcile the two systems together. And I don't believe these passive traits and tiers need to be reserved for taking specific trinity based paths. Equipping healing spells might reduce one's enmity generation but a passive trait might cancel that and increase enmity generated from heals for those wishing to take a paladin-esque approach. Setting both offensive magic and offensive melee moves might give traits that lend themselves to a mixed approach, generating TP from spell damage etc.

Furthermore, stats need to matter. It is remarkable to me how useless stats were made in an attempt to combat the fact that they gave their players free reign to change their own base stats. All they in fact should have done was increased the amount of stats given by gear so as to largely overshadow a player's personal stats. Instead we have a tiny stat boosts on our gear for stats that are already rather worthless.

What do stats and gear have to do with the suggested trait system? Everything, the idea behind the trait system is to incentivize the player to have a distinct ROLE in mind. Gear should compliment this entirely. The answer is not to make more class specific gear, but to make more ROLE supporting gear. If I choose to wear plate armor as a mage I should see a big drop in my magic potency and a large boost in my defense, if I choose to wear robes on my gladiator I should see much more potent magic at the expense of my physical damage mitigation, etc.

Freedom of stat distribution could be done away with almost entirely, and instead have stats derive primarily from the gear we wear and the abilities we equip. If we choose to equip defensive abilities and plate armor, we should be strong tanks. If we choose to equip healing magic and robes we should be strong healers, regardless of what weapon we wiled. Final Fantasy has a history of interesting hybrid characters. Don't make us don very specific classes, let us chose very specific roles that we may swap through depending on what gear and abilities we have available to us.

I think in the end it would please everyone if implemented properly. People are afraid of homogeneity, for the most part won't most adventurers choose a hybrid lifestyle? Well yes, for general solo and low man adventuring having a variety of abilities at your disposal is often going to be the best approach. There's nothing bad about this though. Choosing light leather armor as a gladiator, and setting some healing and support abilities seems appropriate for adventuring, while donning a thick metal cuirass and focusing on powerful defensive abilities to keep a dragon's attention as my company and I dispatch it .

In this way gear and abilities become about preparing for the situation ahead, as they ought to. "Situational" was a term so fondly associated with gear in FFXI, but gear was swapped on the fly per ability. Let us swap our gear and abilities as we prepare to don a new role for a new battle.

In end game where tiers of potent passive traits would be necessary to perform a role properly one would have to chose a distinct role. Someone sporting a mixture of healing magic, offensive magic and offensive melee moves would not be able to heal and keep up with the damage on a tank during a huge raid where someone setting specifically healing magic and wearing robes would. The first character would either don the role of a jack of all trades "filling in the gaps" character or have to set themselves to more of a specific role for those endgame encounters.

Those who want to take the role of FF's more distinct classes would have their answer as well. If one could actually be a gladiator and wear leather and cloth and set magic in tiers that would make them able to be used potently, one has the look and style of play as a Red Mage. A Marauder mixing Thaumaturgy and Conjury properly could achieve the look and style of play of a Dark Knight. These things seemed possible with the armoury system but it's inherent flaws prevent it. With these adjustments these goals could be achieved and more. Specific hybrid gear could even be created that supports certain amalgamations in both aesthetic and stats. Even more though, is possible, you might suggest "why do I need to level so many skills in order to assemble the class I want to play, why not just make Red Mage a class?" This system allows even greater freedom, wield the bow and focus on healing magic a la Rosa from FFIV, focus on hand to hand weapons and elemental magic a la "Assassin" from FFTA2 etc.

If I see a girl run by with a sword and a buckler and some robes on and then I see her flinging fire balls and striking with her sword it's very obvious to me what her role is, she's a hybrid magic swordsman. If I see a guy fighting a big dragon with a lance wearing plate armor and using defensive moves and parrying attacks I know what his role is, he's focused on two handed tanking.

Let not the weapon we hold define everything that we are. Let everything that we are; our appearance, our abilities, define us. If our gear and skills defined our roles that would be best.


Kachi wrote:
[quote]I wouldn't even mind if they further removed class distinction so that you don't actually learn abilities from leveling your class, but instead learn abilities through the completion of quests/leves/etc. If this game is just going to copy concepts that have already been done over and over, it's never going to rise beyond a very small niche of players... never even be more successful than FFXI.


Final Fantasy 9/FFTA, let us learn abilities from our weapons. We must equip a burning rod and Fire becomes available, accumulate a certain amount of SP and master that ability. Don't make physical levels less important, make them more important. And put physical level requirements on weapons. A drastic change, but sometimes drastic measures are necessary. It's such a distinctly different route to take than most MMOs I think it would be a breath of fresh air. Training with a specific weapon to unlock a specific ability. Collecting and mastering many abilities. it fits the system very well, and it also allows the player to pursue the specific abilities they want, instead of having to level through many levels of junk just to get one thing they want. Clear out the chaff, it would really make the design team have to consider the merit of an ability, as no ability would really function as "filler" the way they do now.



Best post I've seen in awhile. Agree 100% with how you see jobs!
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#130 Feb 21 2011 at 6:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Auto-attack has nothing to do with conversations in a party. It has to do with removing unnecessary actions as a part of an effort to adjust a battle system that does not promote the kind of party-play the dev team intended.


It better have to do with conversations in party, because that's about the only thing it'll be any good for, other than making the gameplay even more leisurely.

Quote:
Because of its story, not because of its gameplay...


Personally I thought the gameplay was very good for its time, despite the inclusion of a number of useless abilities. Where else have I seen that problem?
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#131 Feb 22 2011 at 7:19 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Auto-attack has nothing to do with conversations in a party. It has to do with removing unnecessary actions as a part of an effort to adjust a battle system that does not promote the kind of party-play the dev team intended.


It better have to do with conversations in party, because that's about the only thing it'll be any good for, other than making the gameplay even more leisurely.


The combat would be more leisurely than the fishing.
#132 Feb 23 2011 at 1:46 AM Rating: Good
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1,004 posts
Replied with "auto attack", but I'd settle for no auto-attack, and instead making abilities set to a timer, count for something, and be combo based instead of TP based. This MMO has the capacity to go the realm of "Action Based", imagine if all these abilities we "smash buttons to do" as it is, functioned more like Kingdom Hearts, where, sure, we are smashing buttons, but we are also relying on combos of those buttons, timing, and the responsiveness is very quick, unlike now, in FFXIV, where it feels like a "Hurry up and wait" game through and through.
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#133 Feb 23 2011 at 2:48 AM Rating: Excellent
13 posts
Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
jones6 wrote:
Wow I am shocked so many people want auto attack. That is not an interesting choice to me. For me games should be about making decisions, not about some sort of computer fights for me. If I wanted to monitor increasing numbers that I have no control over I would probably just look at the national debt.


How is pushing the same button repeatedly to gain TP making a decision? I guess you could argue that you are deciding to attack, however I would reply by saying you decided that already when you went into active mode. Personally, I would prefer to have more time to make more important decisions in a party, like coordinate a Battle Regimen, or talk about this: CLICK HERE.

...yeah I went there. :)


I guess I can only speak from my experience playing pugilist. I use light strike for the enhanced evasion/defense it adds. pummel to build TP. heavy strike at the end since it requires a little less stamina and seems to add a bit more damage all of which are standard TP building attacks. I could probably just use one attack the whole time and fight nothing but easy mobs mindlessly spamming the same thing over and over. Maybe I am playing the game wrong.

When to use an attack is also a descision to make. If I was spamming the attack button the whole time my stamina bar would always be depleted and then if a mob used a special ability and I seen another one about to, I would not have enough stamina for a healing ability. Maybe I am not supposed to try new challenges though because the battle system is broken and not fun and I just hit the same thing over and over. Maybe I should start complaining about the battle system more instead of finding ways to enjoy it.

Square Enix this one sucks and is stupid and I hate it and there are all these ways to go back to systems people are familiar with and take no imagination. Give me an old/new battle system and hurry because I hate the all the games that are out there now as well.
#134 Feb 23 2011 at 3:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
At least by making the current system actually work things don't need to be perfect from the get-go. The novelty factor will take them far enough.


The "novelty" factor brought them a 80% cut in active player during their free trial period.

Call me a heretic, but I also think, in hindsight, that the system we had in the alpha phase
wasn't all bad, after all... Balancing attack power and attack speed... well I have to admit
I can't fully remember, but wasn't it at least a lgood concept?
#135 Feb 23 2011 at 3:52 AM Rating: Decent
jones6 wrote:
I guess I can only speak from my experience playing pugilist. I use light strike for the enhanced evasion/defense it adds. pummel to build TP. heavy strike at the end since it requires a little less stamina and seems to add a bit more damage all of which are standard TP building attacks. I could probably just use one attack the whole time and fight nothing but easy mobs mindlessly spamming the same thing over and over. Maybe I am playing the game wrong.

There is no wrong way to play the game at the moment, nothing is defined enough to shun unorthodox implementations into any type of party structure. And if your soloing no one is around to care but yourself.

jones6 wrote:
When to use an attack is also a descision to make.

Sorry, but no, it really isn't. Attacking is inevitable, the only decision you could argue this statement with is that choosing when to NOT attack is a decision to make.

jones6 wrote:
If I was spamming the attack button the whole time my stamina bar would always be depleted and then if a mob used a special ability and I seen another one about to, I would not have enough stamina for a healing ability.

How does this have to do with the thread. No one said to keep attacking so fast you have 0 stamina all the time. Use some common sense. We are talking about how Normal Attacks are a majority of our interactions in a fight. Take behests, or LQs for example. With a decnt sized party, you will not get off very many weaponskills because monsters die so fast. By changing the system to an auto-attack based system, now you have a set delay for damage, predictable TP gain, and combined with making fights take longer, but at the same time making them more rewarding, will allow weaponskills to take more precedence in a fight. If they have to pull elements from FFXI to do so, so be it.

jones6 wrote:
Maybe I am not supposed to try new challenges though because the battle system is broken and not fun and I just hit the same thing over and over.

There is nothing in the game that can't be done with the battle system currently in place. The problem is it doesn't promote a multiplayer environment. Being an MMORPG, you would think it would complement a party-friendly experience.

jones6 wrote:
Maybe I should start complaining about the battle system more instead of finding ways to enjoy it.

This is exactly what you should do. Bending over and taking it in the Moogle for SE's sake alone is downright, well, dumb. Sure, make the most of it in the meantime, but don't settle for less than what we deserve.

jones6 wrote:
SquareEnix this one sucks and is stupid and I hate it and there are all these ways to go back to systems people are familiar with and take no imagination. Give me an old/new battle system and hurry because I hate the all the games that are out there now as well.

I literally have no idea what the **** you just said. Is there a translator in the Forums that can speak "contradinglish"? Please, if your going to post. Either agree, and say why you agree; disagree and say why you disagree; or say your undecided, and maybe list some reasons why, or ask questions if you have them. Don't waste peoples times, by mindlessly complaining, contradicting yourself within the same post, or just being a drama queen.

Maybe his game is just too difficult for you if you find the current system "challenging". 111111111... Yeah, I am -really- challenged.
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#136 Feb 23 2011 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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284 posts
Im kinda torn on this. I like auto attack for hands free purposes and such but I dont like the built in delay due to jobs I play tend to have larger weapons(was Samurai in ffxi). Marauder would swing super slow and couple that with the constant waiting only to miss sucks.

However optional or a toggle if you would might work a bit better.
#137 Feb 23 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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130 posts
I voted for choice 3, which would be the choice to toggle auto-attack. There (hopefully) will be fights when sleep can be very usefull and being able to not auto attack so that no one hits the mobs while casting sleep (remember FFXI and the one not paying attention and attacking the slept mob leading to a wipe :-D). However, for many situatios, auto-attack would be greatly appreciated so you can talk strategy or socialize during that time.
It seems like the best option in my opinion, everyone has what he wants and this can be a very usefull toggled option.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 12:55pm by Carmillia
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yfaithfully wrote:
To add to those, if you can get this DeLorean up to 88 MPH, you'll be able to play this game in 2019 when they've finally implemented mounts.

#138 Feb 23 2011 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
Carmillia wrote:
I voted for choice 3, which would be the choice to toggle auto-attack. There (hopefully) will be fights when sleep can be very usefull and being able to not auto attack so that no one hits the mobs while casting sleep (remember FFXI and the one not paying attention and attacking the slept mob leading to a wipe :-D). However, for many situatios, auto-attack would be greatly appreciated so you can talk strategy or socialize during that time.
It seems like the best option in my opinion, everyone has what he wants and this can be a very usefull toggled option.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 12:55pm by Carmillia


Iwouldn't worry about auto-attack waking up a mob. Worry about an AOE weaponskill or spell doing that. In FFXI, if the strategy was to sleep, the only time someone woke up a mob with auto-attack, was because they weren't paying attention, or they are just inable to comprehend simple words.

Player 1: "Sleeping <t>. Don't fing attack, plox!!1!"
Player 2 hits mob.
Player 1: "Zomgwtfbbqsauce!? What did I just say!?"
Player 2: "Oops, soory was watching ****..."
Player 1: /facepalm

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 1:27pm by StateAlchemist2
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#139 Feb 23 2011 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
Toggling auto-attack is largely unrealistic. If auto-attack is implemented it will be at the expense or parallel to the current system. I.E. either stamina will be done away with or auto-attacks won't use stamina, at which point disabling it would just make you have to manually input something which you cannot do as quickly or accurately as the game on every update your delay has reached 0.

Implementing auto attack with the current system would interfere with us trying to do other things by draining our stamina, even if it could be set to "only auto attack" over X% of stamina, it would just convolute the battle system and make it even more impenetrable to new players.
#140 Feb 23 2011 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The "novelty" factor brought them a 80% cut in active player during their free trial period.

Call me a heretic, but I also think, in hindsight, that the system we had in the alpha phase
wasn't all bad, after all... Balancing attack power and attack speed... well I have to admit
I can't fully remember, but wasn't it at least a lgood concept?


There were some good concepts in the alpha version, particularly the effect gauge. Ultimately the problem wasn't the battle system itself, but that the UI was clunky and the different effects weren't balanced to have situational usefulness... one effect was always clearly better than the others. So, basically it had the same problems as the new system came with.

Until they balance the abilities and make the mobs sufficiently unique, there is no way the combat will be especially engaging. Doesn't really matter what else they may do, so hopefully they figure it out.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#141 Feb 23 2011 at 11:01 PM Rating: Default
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2,202 posts
Shezard wrote:
Kachi wrote:


Quote:
I would like to play Final Fantasy XIV not Final Fantasy: Street Fighter. :(


You probably wouldn't dislike it as much as you might imagine. Xenogears, an old Square game, did something like this, and a great deal of players, on this board no less, consider it one of their all-time favorites.


Because of its story, not because of its gameplay...


Actually xenogears got a lot of praise for it's gameplay :)
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#142 Feb 24 2011 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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291 posts
Having read only about half the thread, I found it interesting that in the comments there is a heavy preference towards auto-attack by players who were rank 25 and under as their highest class and a heavy concern about auto-attack's impact on strategy by players who were rank 40-50.
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#143 Feb 24 2011 at 7:38 PM Rating: Decent
In my personal opinion auto-attack > push-to-attack since everything seems to be server-sided. That means when you and the enemy are both at 1 hp, you don't die because the mob hit you in the time it took for your button push to tell the server to attack. For me this would seem to be the only true advantage. And I am willing to go along with any changes it may bring to give me even a .01 second advantage over the current Push button, wait .1~1 second, attack triggers.

Removing the human element, and the 12000 miles between me and the server is a good thing, and would probably increase my dps.
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