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Auto-att. and its effect on future classesFollow

#1 Feb 17 2011 at 10:12 PM Rating: Good
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So i logged on for the first time in a few days and had realized something.
Back in the early interview days SE was asked a few times if SMN would be added at some point, SE answered saying that it wouldnt be impossible in the future but as of now (at the time) they just didnt see the battle system supporting a pet class very well so they doubted it.
Ive noticed on these forums that i wasnt the only one still hoping SE would release SMN one way or another and soon.
well despite any debates on whether we should have an auto-attack feature, we know for a fact having A-A. would allow SE to more easily develop any true pet style class they want, and probably implement them quicker too since they wouldnt have to figure out how to work around accommodating pet class mechanics around such a "revolutionary" battle system.

currently, would the pet have auto attack while you still dont? if your pet didnt have auto attack, then one of you would be standing around quite a bit which would look even more rediculous than some of the slow fights ive already had. plus if the pet did have its own A-A., then you guys would be too OP as far as over all damage goes.
the only way i can see it working with the current battle system off the top of my head is if the pet had its own AI and you and your pets performance together would have to equal that of a single player. but unfortunately the SMN spirits in FFXI had horrid AIs and werent worth the time or effort. so this alone is enough for me to want to bring in an A-A. function. what do you guys think?

Edited, Feb 17th 2011 11:19pm by pixelpop
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#2 Feb 18 2011 at 4:44 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't know, DC Universe Online works fine without an auto-attack. If your concern is the absence of an auto-attack ability that's holding back the pet classes then why isn't it holding back DCUO? They could simply add an auto-attack to pets like they did in DCUO.

This reeks of lazy from SE's part.
#3 Feb 18 2011 at 4:57 AM Rating: Decent
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I may be wrong but probably the reason why this wouldnt be possible to have a a class like SMN from FFXI is because of the storyline.

Rank 36 quest hints that you too can summon Primals to aid you and such.
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#4 Feb 18 2011 at 7:12 AM Rating: Good
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I think they main concern and reason why they're asking if we want auto-attack is players are more or less accustomed to some sort of automated functions in their battles. Or to put it in a nicer way, they suspect that we're expecting more comfortable/less engaging/light-hearted controls in battles. Whether we admit it or not, the players have gotten lazier over the years, and they do have to cater to those players too, since it's all about the $$$

I don't mind the auto-attack absence, I just hate that most of my actions is spamming 1, 1, 1.... that's where I really want to see improvement, but I wouldn't object to auto attack either, to be honest. Sometimes, on easier fights and such it's nice to be able to sit back, sip coffee for a few seconds without fearing that your inactivity in those 5s will get you killed.

If they do plan on keeping the 1, 1, 1.... thing however, then I vote auto-attack all the way, without thinking twice.
#5 Feb 18 2011 at 7:35 AM Rating: Decent
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I brought this up a really long time ago but it seems no one really noticed.

Doesn't it seem like the battle system of FFXIII was more suited for XIV than for XIII? I can see it working out quite clearly actually.

As for pet classes, I would be interesting if your attack actions were instead taken by the pet while you stand a little behind giving orders. Or if you and your pet attacked at the same time you pressed attack etc.
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#6 Feb 18 2011 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, but I feel like the only thing that's turning the current system into a spam fest is the TP system. I know that its purpose is to serve as a soft limit on how often you can use your more powerful abilities, and the only way to raise it is to spam a basic attack.

What would happen if the basic attack and TP gauge were taken out, and TP moves were rebalanced in terms of stamina cost, damage, and possible cooldowns in such a way that overall damage-over-time stayed the same?
#7 Feb 18 2011 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Wolfums wrote:
I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, but I feel like the only thing that's turning the current system into a spam fest is the TP system. I know that its purpose is to serve as a soft limit on how often you can use your more powerful abilities, and the only way to raise it is to spam a basic attack.

What would happen if the basic attack and TP gauge were taken out, and TP moves were rebalanced in terms of stamina cost, damage, and possible cooldowns in such a way that overall damage-over-time stayed the same?


Then you get what used to be the past system, when Spirit Dart was a spell.
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#8 Feb 18 2011 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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Kitprower wrote:
Then you get what used to be the past system, when Spirit Dart was a spell.


Wouldn't the higher stamina costs and cooldowns stop the spam? :)

I envision something that's almost FPS-like. Not in terms of having to aim or spamming your spacebar, but having to put some thought into when to use what skill and making a combo out of them occasionally, and most importantly, getting poorer performance by spamming.
#9 Feb 18 2011 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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Auto attack has both Pros and cons, and could have a major effect of future and current classes.
Pros:
1. No need to spam your light or heavy attack. While I personally don't understand why people think having to control every swing is bad, automating this step will allow you to automatically generate TP and focus more on what makes your class unique and less on worrying about building TP to perform special attacks. I think we all can agree that the classes don't truly feel too unique at this point in time.

2. Auto attack frees up space on your skillbar, allowing for more abilities to be set on your primary bar. This will mainly effect higher level players, when you actually can equip more abilities.

3. Auto Attack allows for the possibility of pet classes. Pets standing around without auto attack, waiting for every order, or having to manage your every attack AND controlling pet actions could be too much. I personally REALLY want a pet class, I played SMN to 75, always play the necro/warlock type classes in MMO's, and really want something like that in this game.

Cons:
1. Auto attacks bring back the semi-comatose players. How many times in FFXI, WoW or another MMO have you had that player who just auto attacks and spams random moves? Yeah, that could easily be back if they add auto attack.

2. Major Gameplay change could alienate the current player base. Yes, we all know that the playerbase isn't "Huge", but right now the servers have been hopping and in many cases have been "too populated" (horizon behest, anyone). Until content catches up to gameplay, adding in auto-attack could drive more players away than bring into the fold.

3. Auto attack could fundamentally change the way we all play the game. Many of us are accustomed to certain playstyles, doing one action after another, etc. Adding in an auto-attack could force people to completely re-think how to play the game. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but again, too much change could alienate the playerbase.

Personally, I'm all for auto-attack as long as it doesn't "break" the game. I think allowing players to pick and choose the attacks that make their classes unique is more important than having to manually pick every little action. Giving up some control in order to make your character and class feel more pivotal in a group setting seems like a good trade off. My only concern regarding future classes is that if an auto attack for a class like Marauder generates 750TP, and a new class such as Fencer's auto attack generates 250TP, they will need to make sure that the time between attacks levels the playing field. In this game much more than FFXI, your abilities often lead to debilitating the opponent, not just dealing pure damage. To that end, if one class can perform a 100TP attack twice as fast or often as another, you will see certain classes be used way more than others (SAM compared to DRG, anyone?)
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#10 Feb 18 2011 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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MerylStryfe wrote:
I think we all can agree that the classes don't truly feel too unique at this point in time.


Just wanted to note I disagree with this. There is a HUGE difference for me between playing GLA and LNC let alone PUG and THM. The classes feel plenty unique.

However, I agree with a lot of the rest of your analysis.

Though I want to add another CON to auto-attack - it would make items like the "sleeping dagger" useless - cause now, when it procs, I usually step back and boost myself or cure before continuing to whack on the mob. What is the point of an item like that if you just automatically hit the mob again and wake it up?

This applies to stun moves as well - if you hit the mob again the stun instantly wears - whereas if you don't attack right away the stun holds longer, allowing you to rebuild stamina.

I don't think it would be game breaking to give pets autoattack - the summoner or BST or whatever - would just have to lower direct damage output... like a summoner in XI DID not deal much damage with their staff.
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#11 Feb 18 2011 at 12:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
2. Auto attack frees up space on your skillbar, allowing for more abilities to be set on your primary bar. This will mainly effect higher level players, when you actually can equip more abilities.

3. Auto Attack allows for the possibility of pet classes. Pets standing around without auto attack, waiting for every order, or having to manage your every attack AND controlling pet actions could be too much. I personally REALLY want a pet class, I played SMN to 75, always play the necro/warlock type classes in MMO's, and really want something like that in this game.


2. We'll still have the icon because we'll still have to choose between different kind of auto-attack (pugilist has 4 basic attack). Plus, we need something to actually start the auto-attack : we need to be able to stay in active mode without auto-attacking.

3. We can play without auto-attack and the pet auto-attacking (monsters or NPCs are actually auto-attacking) Plus, controlling two "characters" is not much of a problem, we're used to do even more in offline game (FFX-2 : 3 characters, fast-paced)
#12 Feb 18 2011 at 12:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Though I want to add another CON to auto-attack - it would make items like the "sleeping dagger" useless - cause now, when it procs, I usually step back and boost myself or cure before continuing to whack on the mob. What is the point of an item like that if you just automatically hit the mob again and wake it up?

This applies to stun moves as well - if you hit the mob again the stun instantly wears - whereas if you don't attack right away the stun holds longer, allowing you to rebuild stamina.

its called tactics and playing the game correctly bro. i dont know your gaming history but in FFXI, aion and WoW we always had to turn around when a mob needed to be slept or stunned or whatever. and if im not mistaken, there are weapons that have sleep effect in FFXI. so basicly having to worry about auto attack messing up your sleeping mobs is already a non issue in every other game and wont be in this one.
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#13 Feb 18 2011 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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pixelpop wrote:
Quote:
Though I want to add another CON to auto-attack - it would make items like the "sleeping dagger" useless - cause now, when it procs, I usually step back and boost myself or cure before continuing to whack on the mob. What is the point of an item like that if you just automatically hit the mob again and wake it up?

This applies to stun moves as well - if you hit the mob again the stun instantly wears - whereas if you don't attack right away the stun holds longer, allowing you to rebuild stamina.

its called tactics and playing the game correctly bro. i dont know your gaming history but in FFXI, aion and WoW we always had to turn around when a mob needed to be slept or stunned or whatever. and if im not mistaken, there are weapons that have sleep effect in FFXI. so basicly having to worry about auto attack messing up your sleeping mobs is already a non issue in every other game and wont be in this one.


It is one thing when you know you are going to sleep something but with a random proc like the sleep dagger, the chances of being able to turn around in time to avoid waking it up are pretty nil... unless you are calling for an ultra slow auto-attack like in XI
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#14 Feb 18 2011 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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How about a battle system like Hack'N Slash? That even possible at this point? -Has been playing Kingdom Hearts-
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#15 Feb 18 2011 at 2:23 PM Rating: Decent
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If SE is adamant about adding an auto attack. I hope they go with a Semi-Auto Attack.
In this system it allows a few actions to be performed in a row with one button press. In this way it would be more engaging than XI but not as spammy as XIV currently is. I still wish the Alpha battle system could have been used because it made combat semi twitch, but also allowed control over potency, accuracy, attack, etc.
#16 Feb 18 2011 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
In this system it allows a few actions to be performed in a row with one button press.


Queued attacks...

That sounds ultimately more fitting for this game. But I guess not.
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#17 Feb 18 2011 at 2:30 PM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
If SE is adamant about adding an auto attack. I hope they go with a Semi-Auto Attack.
In this system it allows a few actions to be performed in a row with one button press. In this way it would be more engaging than XI but not as spammy as XIV currently is. I still wish the Alpha battle system could have been used because it made combat semi twitch, but also allowed control over potency, accuracy, attack, etc.


Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
In this system it allows a few actions to be performed in a row with one button press.


Queued attacks...

That sounds ultimately more fitting for this game. But I guess not.


Actually you can do this already with macros:

/ac "Heavy Strike" <t>
/wait 2
/ac "Heavy Strike" <t>
/wait 2
/ac "Pummel" <t>

Just an example. If only there was a /repeat macro we could both have our cake and eat it.
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#18 Feb 18 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Ah there you go, almost a system like I said in place already. Change the battle regiments from being menu based and make them free flow timing based. In conjunction with a semi auto attack and you are making the game more skill based with a change as simple as this.
#19 Feb 18 2011 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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Thats a load of BS. They could make a pet class with any type of battle system. I don't recall them using the "no auto attack" as an excuse, but it would not surprise me based on other "excuses" they have used in the past for various things.

What they really mean is that it would cost them more in time and effort than its worth. If that isn't really what they mean, then I have never seen their equal in terms of incompetancy and general lack of positive will.

#20 Feb 18 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:


It is one thing when you know you are going to sleep something but with a random proc like the sleep dagger, the chances of being able to turn around in time to avoid waking it up are pretty nil... unless you are calling for an ultra slow auto-attack like in XI


Go the way of Monster Hunter and give a "buffer" of allowing a few hits before the mob fully falls asleep. Just add an indicator of when the effect is starting to take place. Problem solved.

But SE might be too lazy to do that for us.

Edited, Feb 18th 2011 4:20pm by legendof7th
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#21 Feb 18 2011 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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legendof7th wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:


It is one thing when you know you are going to sleep something but with a random proc like the sleep dagger, the chances of being able to turn around in time to avoid waking it up are pretty nil... unless you are calling for an ultra slow auto-attack like in XI


Go the way of Monster Hunter and give a "buffer" of allowing a few hits before the mob fully falls asleep. Just add an indicator of when the effect is starting to take place. Problem solved.


Problem solved for sleep - how about stun? Also, are you just going to remove the ability to stack boosts like hawks eye, raging strike ferocity and bloodbath? Or are you going to stand with your back to the mob while you stack those abilities so you don't waste them on some crummy auto-attack?
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#22 Feb 18 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:

Problem solved for sleep - how about stun? Also, are you just going to remove the ability to stack boosts like hawks eye, raging strike ferocity and bloodbath? Or are you going to stand with your back to the mob while you stack those abilities so you don't waste them on some crummy auto-attack?


Add a delay after every action before auto attack kicks in. But I don't really see a problem with turning my back and "charging up", either way you're not unleashing until your ready anyways. And don't you dare trying saying it's unrealistic/unbushido-like when you show your back.

If only they gave us an "/autoattack <t> on" and an "/autoattack <t> off" command/button this debate would not be so... problematic.
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#23 Feb 18 2011 at 3:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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I just don't see the need for auto-attack at all

>.>

I mean seriously. If they add it... it will probably drive me to play Tera if it comes out half decent. I want to play a game, not have the computer play half of it for me.

There are different basic attacks best used in different situations, and toggling auto-attack seems like more trouble than just choosing each attack individually - especially if you want to somehow keep the different basic attacks without removing their strategic nature (ie. this attack adds a bind effect but takes more stamina, this one is AOE, this one hits hard but has little TP generation, this one doesn't damage much but gains a lot of TP)

The biggest argument I hear for auto-attack is "I want to be able to chat while in battle" - and in order to achieve that they would need to slow the pace of battle down considerably (even with auto-attack) because even if we were just using boosts and TP moves the pace of battle would be pretty swift.

Well if I want to chat, I log into MSN, or I go do botany leves - I don't join a party fighting beasts in the wilds. It truly looks like this game is going down the toilet.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#24 Feb 18 2011 at 4:04 PM Rating: Default
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I just don't see the need for auto-attack at all

>.>

I mean seriously. If they add it... it will probably drive me to play Tera if it comes out half decent. I want to play a game, not have the computer play half of it for me.

There are different basic attacks best used in different situations, and toggling auto-attack seems like more trouble than just choosing each attack individually - especially if you want to somehow keep the different basic attacks without removing their strategic nature (ie. this attack adds a bind effect but takes more stamina, this one is AOE, this one hits hard but has little TP generation, this one doesn't damage much but gains a lot of TP)

The biggest argument I hear for auto-attack is "I want to be able to chat while in battle" - and in order to achieve that they would need to slow the pace of battle down considerably (even with auto-attack) because even if we were just using boosts and TP moves the pace of battle would be pretty swift.

Well if I want to chat, I log into MSN, or I go do botany leves - I don't join a party fighting beasts in the wilds. It truly looks like this game is going down the toilet.


It wasn't in the toilet already?! They say when you're at the bottom, the only way left to go is up. Hahaha!

But you're still here and probably playing, so I'll see you online with my macro spam of

/ac "Heavy Strike" <t>
/wait 2
/ac "Light Strike" <t>
/wait 2
/ac "Heavy Strike" <t>
/wait 2
/ac "Light Strike" <t>
/wait 2
/ac "Heavy Strike" <t>
/wait 2
/ac "Light Strike" <t>
/wait 2
/ac "Heavy Strike" <t>
/wait 2
/ac "Light Strike" <t>

^^ There's always a work-around.
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#25 Feb 18 2011 at 4:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't ever use that many basic attacks in a row... and if you use a macro like that - you will miss your chance to use skills like haymaker which only procs after an evade
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#26 Feb 18 2011 at 4:25 PM Rating: Decent
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True, I would have to reinitiate the macro after every haymaker or such. But as a pugilist, I mainly DD in a party, so the chance to evade should never even happen, if I don't try stealing hate. Solo is another matter.
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#27 Feb 18 2011 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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I'd really hate auto-attack being put into the game.

Currently there's finally a use for Stamina for tactics. You can either spam your stamina bar down with attacks, or save up by not attacking so often and then unleash a couple of instant TP moves.

Basicly your attack speed is what you make of it.

Auto-attack would ruin any kind of tactics or inovation this game offers right now. I'd hate to wait on my much needed TP moves to finally build up the stamina again i lost from auto-attacking. You could pretty much junk the whole Stamina system and TP move cost if that happened. Not to mention perhaps the most important part of this... It wouldnt be half as much fun as what this new system offers.

Wanting "Pet jobs" isnt enough motivation to wreck a game at it's core, i'd hope.
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#28 Feb 18 2011 at 7:03 PM Rating: Decent
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@Hugus

This is exactly why it IS in fact possible... And by the game teasing us like that makes us want a summoner class even more! This may end up being a requirement in order to unlock the summoner class once released, or at least one of them^^ Like advance jobs in FF11. Plus the Eikons looks RLY awesome in this game, such a tease *^.^* For them not to release one of the biggest FF classes would just be...sad. Here's hoping it's one of the first ones added :D lol

Edited, Feb 18th 2011 8:04pm by MishaNevarian
#29 Feb 18 2011 at 7:39 PM Rating: Default
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I just don't see the need for auto-attack at all

>.>

I mean seriously. If they add it... it will probably drive me to play Tera if it comes out half decent.


Most of us can see it (hint: poll).
You keep drama-queening pages upon pages about a change that is not even
implemented yet, just because it *might* be something. If you like angsty
teenage stuff, go play FFXIII. (...) Or Tera.

Quote:
Auto-attack would ruin any kind of tactics or inovation this game offers right now.

Who exactly told you how they are going to implement an auto-attack?
Where did they write that the stamina gauge would be omitted?
Why exactly isn't it possible to have an auto attack and a stamina gauge?
What "tactics and innovation" are you referring to?


Edited, Feb 18th 2011 8:50pm by Rinsui
#30 Feb 18 2011 at 9:26 PM Rating: Good
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lol wow, auto attack has been around for ages so its not like its gonna totally ruin a game.
plus, auto attack in most games deals junk change damage compared to the abilites your supposed to be spamming during fights anyway, so whats the big deal?
plus, even if they did alter or get rid of the stamina gauge, its not like its the only way to play a game, wanna know whats really cool? this is one of the only MMOs that i know of that has every class play the exact same way.
what i mean is, like in wow, rogues have stamina bars to use like we do in FFXIV... but mages dont etc.
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#31 Feb 19 2011 at 8:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I just don't see the need for auto-attack at all

>.>

I mean seriously. If they add it... it will probably drive me to play Tera if it comes out half decent. I want to play a game, not have the computer play half of it for me.

There are different basic attacks best used in different situations, and toggling auto-attack seems like more trouble than just choosing each attack individually - especially if you want to somehow keep the different basic attacks without removing their strategic nature (ie. this attack adds a bind effect but takes more stamina, this one is AOE, this one hits hard but has little TP generation, this one doesn't damage much but gains a lot of TP)

The biggest argument I hear for auto-attack is "I want to be able to chat while in battle" - and in order to achieve that they would need to slow the pace of battle down considerably (even with auto-attack) because even if we were just using boosts and TP moves the pace of battle would be pretty swift.

Well if I want to chat, I log into MSN, or I go do botany leves - I don't join a party fighting beasts in the wilds. It truly looks like this game is going down the toilet.


I'm not sure about this.

Personally I would like an auto-attack so I could focus more on the hints the mob gives you about his future moves, on buffing, healing, strategy, without caring about TP gain.

I regularly end up waiting for almost all my skills to cooldown because I have used them up so the point here is not that I think that the current system is just 1-1-1-1-1 spamming. Rather, I would like more time to think about strategy, to chat (about the battle not only to socialize) and to see what's going on during fights.

I don't see why your action 1 for example could not be "auto-light slash", clicking it turns it on or off. Build TP, stop auto-attack, prepare a combo of abilities, launch attack, restart TP build.

In a general way I think that TP moves need to be more significant during the fight

Edited, Feb 19th 2011 9:02am by northernsky
#32 Feb 19 2011 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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I don't really see how the absence or introduction of auto attack has anything to do with the addition of pet classes, there's absolutely no reason for pets not to use skills and magic like every other monster in the game. When SE says the current battle system wouldn't support it, that's just them saying that they don't feel like doing it, because an AI controlled pet really that big of a deal. I think it's pretty obvious when SE or any developer says something like this as a means to dismiss the issue in order to work on other things.

If you're really the kind of lazy person that thinks auto attack is necessary in the part of the game that is supposed to have most attention and player interaction, then you probably shouldn't comment on the battle system, because the "omg no auto attack?!" has clearly caused a problem for everyone else. I really like that I have something to do constantly in the current battle system, but if you can just start tagging a mob and alt tabbing to do something else until it's dead or spam skills every time they're off CD, it's really going to make combat even more lackluster.
#33 Feb 19 2011 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
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In a general way I think that TP moves need to be more significant during the fight


Yes, At the moment I sometimes feel like a FFXI Samurai with a "permanent 2-hour-ability" glitch.
At first it was awesome to be able to spam one skill after the other, but it became pretty old.

Cut the TP fill rate by half, and up the significance of weaponskills.
Exchange the frequent "bum-bum-bum" with one big "booooooom!!!".

Whenever I released Asuran Fists in FFXI, I felt THE POWER.
Whenever I release a phalanx, I feel the repetition.
#34 Feb 19 2011 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
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What is actually wrong with the system we have now?... I mean if they can speed up the UI so actions can be processed faster so when you actually press the tp move you want, it gets implemented without a 1-2 second wait, I think it would be perfect and have a faster paced feel when fighting monsters. If you can't focus on build up attacking and using tactics as well, then maybe this isn't the right game for you. As far as pets go, if ever implemented, they could have actions such as auto-attack, hold back (when sleeping or stunning the enemy), Heal, or whatever other actions that pet can use.



Of course the current system needs more tweak then what I listed but I was just being more general.

Edited, Feb 19th 2011 2:35pm by xvvolvenx
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#35 Feb 19 2011 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
In a general way I think that TP moves need to be more significant during the fight


Yes, At the moment I sometimes feel like a FFXI Samurai with a "permanent 2-hour-ability" glitch.
At first it was awesome to be able to spam one skill after the other, but it became pretty old.

Cut the TP fill rate by half, and up the significance of weaponskills.
Exchange the frequent "bum-bum-bum" with one big "booooooom!!!".

Whenever I released Asuran Fists in FFXI, I felt THE POWER.
Whenever I release a phalanx, I feel the repetition.




I truly do agree with this. I am all for cutting the tp build up in half if we can have a faster UI, and a more powerfull tp attack that would only be used once or twice in an actual fight instead of 5 times
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#36 Feb 19 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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xvvolvenx wrote:
What is actually wrong with the system we have now?... I mean if they can speed up the UI so actions can be processed faster so when you actually press the tp move you want, it gets implemented without a 1-2 second wait, I think it would be perfect and have a faster paced feel when fighting monsters. If you can't focus on build up attacking and using tactics as well, then maybe this isn't the right game for you. As far as pets go, if ever implemented, they could have actions such as auto-attack, hold back (when sleeping or stunning the enemy), Heal, or whatever other actions that pet can use.



Of course the current system needs more tweak then what I listed but I was just being more general.

Edited, Feb 19th 2011 2:35pm by xvvolvenx


There seems to be this very weird assumption that if people would prefer an auto-attack, that means they don't know how to play with the current system.

I like the current system but I still would like an auto-attack because think it gives even more time to focus on strategic moves like phalanx, feint or haymaker and let you anticipate dangerous moves from the mob that you should stun, for example. Making things easier to use does not always mean nerfing the gameplay for good players.

The action bar with various equippable accuracy and attack buffs, stamina bar and moves that only consume a part of your TP sets the table for a very dynamic fight even with an auto-attack feature if it is well implemented.
#37 Feb 19 2011 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
In a general way I think that TP moves need to be more significant during the fight


Yes, At the moment I sometimes feel like a FFXI Samurai with a "permanent 2-hour-ability" glitch.
At first it was awesome to be able to spam one skill after the other, but it became pretty old.

Cut the TP fill rate by half, and up the significance of weaponskills.
Exchange the frequent "bum-bum-bum" with one big "booooooom!!!".

Whenever I released Asuran Fists in FFXI, I felt THE POWER.
Whenever I release a phalanx, I feel the repetition.


Could not agree more.
In all honesty tho I have to admit that reflex moves like Phalanx are a pretty cool addition, and very strong weapon skills came much later (in terms of levels) in the game in XI.
#38 Feb 19 2011 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Could not agree more.
In all honesty tho I have to admit that reflex moves like Phalanx are a pretty cool addition, and very strong weapon skills came much later (in terms of levels) in the game in XI.


i totally get what you guys are talking about as i too was in FFXI for 4 years.
however, i personally find keeping a button rotation up (different rotations for different situations) much more interactive and fun.
i found FFXIs battle system to be a bit on the extreme side, IE. just too damned slow, and WoWs just too damned fast a good portion of the time.
i too would like some big boom boom damage moves, but i do hope we dont lose our action bar and that the button mashing isnt totally minimized.
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#39 Feb 19 2011 at 11:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't really see how the absence or introduction of auto attack has anything to do with the addition of pet classes, there's absolutely no reason for pets not to use skills and magic like every other monster in the game. When SE says the current battle system wouldn't support it, that's just them saying that they don't feel like doing it, because an AI controlled pet really that big of a deal. I think it's pretty obvious when SE or any developer says something like this as a means to dismiss the issue in order to work on other things.


an AI controlled pet is 100% a big deal. in fact i wouldnt even touch the class if the pets were all AI because to me it takes away from the classes immersion.
i want to be able to activate my pets abilities when i see fit, i want to level up so i have acces to my pets other abilities, i want to be able to buff parties and have my pet tank when soloing.
these are all things that either wouldnt work at all if we had AI pets, or wouldnt work anywhere near aswell than if we were able to control the pets like we have been able to since FFX.

controlled pets are the bees knees.

OOOH AND if you all notice, the pet classes in other MMOs dont put any emphasis on their pets, the elementals and beasts you capture tend to be very basic and generic, but the SMN class is a staple to the FF series, so dumbing down the class to be a simple minded AI system even more than it was in FFXI wouldnt exactly be progressive.
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#40 Feb 19 2011 at 11:38 PM Rating: Good
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It took SE almost a decade before finally allowing BST to have SOME say in what their pet's weaponskill would be. Before that, pets were almost completely AI beside attack, stay, release, etc commands. Having said that, I see no problems with a AI pet like SE has always done. As frustrating as it was, any pet job is better than none. I miss my BST so badly...

Yoshi could've just said they were using their resources for other things instead, that they probably viewed more important. Okay, we get the message... BST = no love :'(
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#41 Feb 20 2011 at 4:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It took SE almost a decade before finally allowing BST to have SOME say in what their pet's weaponskill would be. Before that, pets were almost completely AI beside attack, stay, release, etc commands. Having said that, I see no problems with a AI pet like SE has always done. As frustrating as it was, any pet job is better than none. I miss my BST so badly...


i know what you mean, i suppose a suuuper awesomely made AI for pets would be better than nothing at all. but not being able to control them like in FFX,XII,XI and in other games to me is less fun and very class immersive. plus making it to where we can control them is completely plausible so i dont see why not.
i first think, well they totally have the technology, means, and know how to make a pet class equal/better than the current SMN, PUP, and BST classes in FFXI. buuut then again i also thought then when i first learned of FFXIV a few years ago lol
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#42 Feb 20 2011 at 8:24 AM Rating: Decent
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62 posts
they probably could add auto attack to make combat feel more dynamic since ur character wont be standing there doing nothing looking like a **** fool inbetween actions. The effect of autoattack could be small, as in, you would not be able to just use autoattack to kill anything.
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#43 Feb 20 2011 at 8:54 AM Rating: Default
They already have a toggle for turning off auto-attack. It's default key is "F".

Not trying to be sarcastic, but seriously. If they would just change "spells" and "abilities" from requiring you to be in active mode, then auto-attack no longer becomes an issue really. Wanna buff up like crazy for that huge ws? Just hit passive, buff to your hearts content and then auto-transition back into active by hitting your weaponskill.

Personally they should just make Raging Strike/Ferocity a duration effect with a longer recast, then just a one-time use with a small recast. It currently act's as an enmity bomb when you go Raging Strike > Ferocity > Bloodbath > Hawk's Eye > Etc. then nail a huge DMG WS. Instead, change it up to be kind of like Beserk/Hasso or whatever. 5 min recast, 1~min duration or so. (Bloodbath can remain a 1-time use) and really Hawk's Eye should be "archer only".
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#44 Feb 20 2011 at 10:30 AM Rating: Good
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northernsky wrote:
xvvolvenx wrote:
What is actually wrong with the system we have now?... I mean if they can speed up the UI so actions can be processed faster so when you actually press the tp move you want, it gets implemented without a 1-2 second wait, I think it would be perfect and have a faster paced feel when fighting monsters. If you can't focus on build up attacking and using tactics as well, then maybe this isn't the right game for you. As far as pets go, if ever implemented, they could have actions such as auto-attack, hold back (when sleeping or stunning the enemy), Heal, or whatever other actions that pet can use.



Of course the current system needs more tweak then what I listed but I was just being more general.

Edited, Feb 19th 2011 2:35pm by xvvolvenx


There seems to be this very weird assumption that if people would prefer an auto-attack, that means they don't know how to play with the current system.

I like the current system but I still would like an auto-attack because think it gives even more time to focus on strategic moves like phalanx, feint or haymaker and let you anticipate dangerous moves from the mob that you should stun, for example. Making things easier to use does not always mean nerfing the gameplay for good players.

The action bar with various equippable accuracy and attack buffs, stamina bar and moves that only consume a part of your TP sets the table for a very dynamic fight even with an auto-attack feature if it is well implemented.



When I said that, I really didn't mean it in that sense. I guess I got carried away. I would love, if it was converted to auto attack, for it to be just like ffxi. It would make adding new classes so much easier. To stop auto-attack, just switch back and forth from passive to active.
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#45 Feb 21 2011 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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pixelpop wrote:

an AI controlled pet is 100% a big deal. in fact i wouldnt even touch the class if the pets were all AI because to me it takes away from the classes immersion.
i want to be able to activate my pets abilities when i see fit, i want to level up so i have acces to my pets other abilities, i want to be able to buff parties and have my pet tank when soloing.
these are all things that either wouldnt work at all if we had AI pets, or wouldnt work anywhere near aswell than if we were able to control the pets like we have been able to since FFX.

controlled pets are the bees knees.



The simple solution is you would take the abilities from your pet and add them to your bar. That would fundamentally improve class balance - because every ability you add to your bar would use up AP and also take a slot away from your class/cross class abilities - meaning having a pet wouldn't make you OP - and it would also mean that you could allow people to cross-class pets but it would be a sacrifice in terms of abilities to do so, so not everyone would be running around with a pet.

I think having pet commands/special moves on the bar would be great. I have no problem with pets having an "auto-attack" setting you could toggle on and off just because I don't think it is reasonable to expect people to have to do basic moves for both yourself and the pet.

Man, I want to do a post in the feedback forum describing how I think BST could work with this current system.

Edited, Feb 21st 2011 10:29am by Olorinus
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#46 Feb 21 2011 at 4:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The simple solution is you would take the abilities from your pet and add them to your bar. That would fundamentally improve class balance - because every ability you add to your bar would use up AP and also take a slot away from your class/cross class abilities - meaning having a pet wouldn't make you OP - and it would also mean that you could allow people to cross-class pets but it would be a sacrifice in terms of abilities to do so, so not everyone would be running around with a pet.

i think having pet commands/special moves on the bar would be great. I have no problem with pets having an "auto-attack" setting you could toggle on and off just because I don't think it is reasonable to expect people to have to do basic moves for both yourself and the pet.

Man, I want to do a post in the feedback forum describing how I think BST could work with this current system.


My personal major pet peeve with this game is the standing still. aestheticly it looks absolutely horrible and as someone said before is way less dynamic.
i think it looks really bad when im soloing, in groups, and couldnt imagine how retainer-ish/humunculus/testtube baby with no soul-ish having a pet also just stand around picking his nose while hes under my direct orders.



Edited, Feb 21st 2011 5:58pm by pixelpop
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#47 Feb 21 2011 at 6:19 PM Rating: Good
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3,530 posts
pixelpop wrote:
they just didnt see the battle system supporting a pet class very well so they doubted it.


Isn't that SE admitting from the beginning that they felt that their battle system was broken? They can preach "customization" all they want, but if even they see their battle system as so limited as to be unable to accommodate anything but the most elementary of melee (and melee-ish mage) classes, then there's a problem... and an MMO with no pet classes? Not really the kind of revolutionary next-generation MMO technology I was hoping for. >_>

At any rate, I'm glad they're changing the battle system; I hope it ends up well and I'd certainly like some pet classes.
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