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Feeling less confident about the future of XIVFollow

#202 Feb 22 2011 at 1:53 AM Rating: Decent
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simbaseraph wrote:


Overall it seems your main issue is that changing these aspects of the game will "lose the current player."


I've stated my main issue numerous times - I like the game, I want it to succeed and I am concerned that it won't. Part of that issue, is, indeed, alienating the current player base, for sure.

We have a saying here:

"A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush."

I am concerned SE will let go of the bird in their hand, lunge for the two in the bush, and end up with no birds at all.


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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#203 Feb 22 2011 at 2:01 AM Rating: Decent
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9,526 posts
Kirutaru wrote:


The battle system needs work. It needs polish. It could use some shiny animations. It's far from completely broken, though, and it certainly didn't need a complete overhaul. It's not the greatest, but it is working.


This.

Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
"a new system also be worse?"- yes, it could. Anything SE adds into the game could be worse. But chances are it won't be. And if it is, they take the feedback given from the players, which is what they are doing and work to perfect that system.


Then, I ask- why are they making a new system instead of taking the feedback given from the players and perfect the existing system (which is not beyond any hope, the opposite really)? It's so counterproductive it's not even funny.


And This.

I couldn't have said it better.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 12:01am by Olorinus
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#204 Feb 22 2011 at 2:03 AM Rating: Decent
40 posts
Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
simbaseraph wrote:
I myself was baffled at this forum. Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but stating, "half the voters dont play the game," and "SE is going to lose all of its loyal players", makes you sound idiotic, and takes away all of your credibility in this post.
Hmm, really... And then you turn around and say this directly afterward:
simbaseraph wrote:
Not sure where you are coming up with these assumptions, but I can assure you, you are in the minority.
Is this based off the poll? If so, I guess your conclusion would make sense.
Note though, that at least a third of the posts in this thread are people agreeing with the OP, or having doubts with the direction that the game is taking.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 12:49am by Kirby


Mine is not an assumption, his or hers is. Stating that "half the people dont play the game who voted" and "Se is going to lose all of its players, by fixcing these issues" is an assumption, and a faulty one at that.

Stating "you are in the minority" about those, is not an assumption. It's a fact. Why would people lie in an anonymous vote to play a game they want. And since when is not being given what you want, the best thing to happen. While not everyone voted for Obama, he was elected because he was the best for the time, and that is what most people wanted. How should this be any different? Stating that "the dev team responding to most players responses is going to lose player base" is idiotic. If you would like me to provide references about statistics I can do so.
#205 Feb 22 2011 at 2:11 AM Rating: Good
40 posts
I'm sorry if I am coming off as a *****, I really do not mean to.

I too have dedicated alot of time in this game, and am a huge ff fan. I just get a bit emotional when I see people getting upset about things changing. I have invested hundreds of hours already because I have hopes in the game to change, so to see people knock them down, its upsetting. It's just baffling how people think this battle system "works." I am not sure, maybe you haven't experience other types? But it is complicated, complex, and ultimately ends up serving no purpose than many simpler systems. The same thing can be achieved with much more ease, adding an auto-attack feature. This will make things way less stressful, increase the life on our keyboards. Just because you add an auto attack doesnt make fighting more boring. The auto attack is only going to make it so you dont have to press "heavy swing" or whatnot every second. The user will still have to use its abilities.

Anyways sorry for coming off as arrogant, didn't mean to and know I was after reading my posts.
#206 Feb 22 2011 at 2:16 AM Rating: Good
40 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Kirutaru wrote:


The battle system needs work. It needs polish. It could use some shiny animations. It's far from completely broken, though, and it certainly didn't need a complete overhaul. It's not the greatest, but it is working.


This.

Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
"a new system also be worse?"- yes, it could. Anything SE adds into the game could be worse. But chances are it won't be. And if it is, they take the feedback given from the players, which is what they are doing and work to perfect that system.


Then, I ask- why are they making a new system instead of taking the feedback given from the players and perfect the existing system (which is not beyond any hope, the opposite really)? It's so counterproductive it's not even funny.


And This.

I couldn't have said it better.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 12:01am by Olorinus


I should be careful with my words, because they aren't necessarily redoing the whole system, and they are working to perfect the system, which may be by adding an auto attack feature.

This is not counterproductive. They ARE taking the players feedback, which is why they are changing the system.... I dont understand why you think they aren't taking the players feedback. Yes some people disagree, for example the OP. But, unfortunately, SE dev team cannot please everyone, so they choose to please the bulk of the population, which in this case is reworking the battlesystem.
#207 Feb 22 2011 at 2:20 AM Rating: Good
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simbaseraph wrote:
Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
simbaseraph wrote:
I myself was baffled at this forum. Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but stating, "half the voters dont play the game," and "SE is going to lose all of its loyal players", makes you sound idiotic, and takes away all of your credibility in this post.
Hmm, really... And then you turn around and say this directly afterward:
simbaseraph wrote:
Not sure where you are coming up with these assumptions, but I can assure you, you are in the minority.
Is this based off the poll? If so, I guess your conclusion would make sense.
Note though, that at least a third of the posts in this thread are people agreeing with the OP, or having doubts with the direction that the game is taking.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 12:49am by Kirby


Mine is not an assumption, his or hers is. Stating that "half the people dont play the game who voted" and "Se is going to lose all of its players, by fixcing these issues" is an assumption, and a faulty one at that.

Stating "you are in the minority" about those, is not an assumption. It's a fact.
Okay, sorry, I jumped the gun on that one.

What I was trying to say, and while countering something you had said (which wasn't directly related on my part), is that there is far more "outcry" if you will, about the changes that are planned for the game.
Maybe a lot of people didn't vote, or have since changed their minds. Maybe some people are just more vocal, I'm not sure.

It just seems idiotic to brush off a significant portion of the player base. Keep in mind that the player made poll that was linked here does not collect data from SE's actual poll. The statistics could be very different.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 1:20am by Kirby
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#208 Feb 22 2011 at 2:23 AM Rating: Excellent
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
"a new system also be worse?"- yes, it could. Anything SE adds into the game could be worse. But chances are it won't be. And if it is, they take the feedback given from the players, which is what they are doing and work to perfect that system.


Then, I ask- why are they making a new system instead of taking the feedback given from the players and perfect the existing system (which is not beyond any hope, the opposite really)? It's so counterproductive it's not even funny.


They are taking the feedback given by the playerbase, oddly enough the 20 people on these forums against auto attack and quest markers are not the entire playerbase.

we have yet to recieve what we asked for in the first poll, so obviously they arent just throwing us what we ask for without thinking twice about it.

None of us can predict what the next big content update will bring us or how it will change the game, but change was needed to so many aspects of the game maybe it would have been counterproductive to keep some of the things we liked? you guys all talk like you know what you're saying but theres so much about this game we know jack about, maybe its so screwed up under the hood they had no choice but to change things to make it work properly/better.

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#209 Feb 22 2011 at 2:39 AM Rating: Good
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But honestly the worst part of XI's battle system WAS/IS auto-attack!

It's such a boring system! Fans of XI begged for something more interactive than simply waiting for TP to build up and then having something to do. It led to AFK Melee. Lazy fighting all around. It is (as Aurelius put it) a step backward.

You say they aren't necessarily going to "overhaul" the battle system but the idea of slapping an auto-attack into our current system would mean an overhaul. It simply wouldn't fit the current way Stamina works.

They could come up with something really impressive and innovative and functional - but (all that's really being said here is) the drastic change could 1) fail to lure people back who already gave up and moved on, 2) drive away people who are actually enjoying the foundation that's in place and simply want it to be upgraded and polished and 3) not interest new players (PS3 crowd) because the PC crowd has already striken it from the record and Gamestop employees will try to talk you out of it or laugh at you for buying it.

^ Yes, that's happened to me, too (the Gamestop thing).

All this thread is intending to express is that Yoshida is walking a very, very fine line. He probably even knows it. People who like the game, support it, defend it, would even be willing to pay for it (like me) have half a foot out the door when they talk about overhauling entire systems (like battle) or class restructures, or losing cross-class skills.

Especially if/when the people crying for these things GET THEM and then go "Oh, well, it's not as good as I thought it would be. Back to Rift of Waraion" and everyone who did like it is left with "wtf is this" taste in their mouth (goes good with the "wtf is this" appetizer we got at retail launch).

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 3:39am by Kirutaru
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#210 Feb 22 2011 at 2:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Kirutaru wrote:
But honestly the worst part of XI's battle system WAS/IS auto-attack!

It's such a boring system! Fans of XI begged for something more interactive than simply waiting for TP to build up and then having something to do. It led to AFK Melee. Lazy fighting all around. It is (as Aurelius put it) a step backward.

You say they aren't necessarily going to "overhaul" the battle system but the idea of slapping an auto-attack into our current system would mean an overhaul. It simply wouldn't fit the current way Stamina works.

They could come up with something really impressive and innovative and functional - but (all that's really being said here is) the drastic change could 1) fail to lure people back who already gave up and moved on, 2) drive away people who are actually enjoying the foundation that's in place and simply want it to be upgraded and polished and 3) not interest new players (PS3 crowd) because the PC crowd has already striken it from the record and Gamestop employees will try to talk you out of it or laugh at you for buying it.

^ Yes, that's happened to me, too (the Gamestop thing).

All this thread is intending to express is that Yoshida is walking a very, very fine line. He probably even knows it. People who like the game, support it, defend it, would even be willing to pay for it (like me) have half a foot out the door when they talk about overhauling entire systems (like battle) or class restructures, or losing cross-class skills.

Especially if/when the people crying for these things GET THEM and then go "Oh, well, it's not as good as I thought it would be. Back to Rift of Waraion" and everyone who did like it is left with "wtf is this" taste in their mouth (goes good with the "wtf is this" appetizer we got at retail launch).

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 3:39am by Kirutaru


Well I have over 1100 days playtime in ffxi, and the battlesystem was my favorite part, thats where we stand different. I do not want to see a bunch of abilities being spammed always readily available. I would much rather see people focusing on working skillchains, using abilities, and such during fights, ontop of an autoattack. Whenever one is not doing an action in a battle, they should hit with their main weapon. We shouldnt have to press each hit, it isnt necessary and doesnt accomplish anything, nor make the battle system more entertaining or enticing. Rather than focus on mashing the same 500/1000 tp one of 2 ability, and the main attack, those should be applied regardless, and the user should be focusing on special abilties used outside of those, and focus on how to use those abilties with your teammates. They wouldnt be able to even add skillchains because of how chaotic abilities are spammed and how fast TP builds. I'll admit they are making a good step in the right direction by cutting party size down from 15, and hopefully it will improve. But ffxi battle system was much more challenging, and entertaining than this.

Also, it would not be very hard to implement an auto-attack with the stamina bar. All they need to do is make your main-weapon attack always be your current attack every time your stamina fills up, if you choose a different ability, then it will replace that loop of auto-attack with that specific ability. It's not that complicated.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 3:49am by simbaseraph
#211 Feb 22 2011 at 2:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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simbaseraph wrote:
Well I have over 1100 days playtime in ffxi, and the battlesystem was my favorite part, thats where we stand different. I do not want to see a bunch of abilities being spammed always readily available. I would much rather see people focusing on working skillchains, using abilities, and such during fights, ontop of an autoattack. Whenever one is not doing an action in a battle, they should hit with their main weapon. We shouldnt have to press each hit, it isnt necessary and doesnt accomplish anything, nor make the battle system more entertaining or enticing. Rather than focus on mashing the same 500/1000 tp one of 2 ability, and the main attack, those should be applied regardless, and the user should be focusing on special abilties used outside of those, and focus on how to use those abilties with your teammates. They wouldnt be able to even add skillchains because of how chaotic abilities are spammed and how fast TP builds. I'll admit they are making a good step in the right direction by cutting party size down from 15, and hopefully it will improve. But ffxi battle system was much more challenging, and entertaining than this.
Arguably, FFXI might have a more entertaining system, but more challenging? Not really.
You had a long time to decide what you were going to do next. While that may have been (or be) more desirable, making decisions at a slower pace doesn't necessarily make the system more challenging.

simbaseraph wrote:
Also, it would not be very hard to implement an auto-attack with the stamina bar. All they need to do is make your main-weapon attack always be your current attack every time your stamina fills up, if you choose a different ability, then it will replace that loop of auto-attack with that specific ability. It's not that complicated.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 3:49am by simbaseraph
That defeats the purpose of having a stamina system in the first place.

If each action uses up the same amount of stamina, it would involve even less strategy then the current system.
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#212 Feb 22 2011 at 2:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
focusing on working skillchains, using abilities, and such during fights


Come watch us fight Dodore some time. It's pretty much non-stop Battle Regimen.

You used Skillchains in XI? What is it? 2005? Heh.
Skillchains were all the rage - oh ... the first time I leveled to 75.
Pretty much laughed at for even suggesting them circa 2007.

Anyway...

It's not that I don't agree with you about "not enticing/entertaining." It's just more involved than AFK farming/leveling. You could literally go to Campaign, attach yourself to mob after mob while reading a book, or doing your taxes! It took about 5% attention.

Now, I want a system that requires 80%+ attention. I want to know the people in my party are at their computers and watching their screens.

I also want mobility and position to actually mean something. Every time I think about their showcase website that boasts about where people will stand and - oh how about Lancer keeping mobs at range with its Lance so they don't get hit - Where the **** is this stuff? I foolishly thought where I stood and such would actually matter. All it seems to really influence is incapacitation (which is an interesting system, also, and I hope they work more on it) but other than that it's fairly stupid.

I want this system to be MORE enticing/entertaining. Auto-Attack is the complete lack of enticing and/or entertaining to me and my entire XI clique of friends/shellmates. It's a boring old system where you're rewarded for minimal effort every 30-40 seconds (if you haven't wandered off to get a drink while waiting for TP).

XIV hasn't really delivered what they promised, but I am sick of every time XIV doesn't deliver they scoot their happy asses back to XI systems rather than actually taking the time to make their systems - idk work better or be what they promised they would be.
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#213 Feb 22 2011 at 3:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Kirutaru wrote:
Quote:
focusing on working skillchains, using abilities, and such during fights


Come watch us fight Dodore some time. It's pretty much non-stop Battle Regimen.

You used Skillchains in XI? What is it? 2005? Heh.
Skillchains were all the rage - oh ... the first time I leveled to 75.
Pretty much laughed at for even suggesting them circa 2007.

Anyway...

It's not that I don't agree with you about "not enticing/entertaining." It's just more involved than AFK farming/leveling. You could literally go to Campaign, attach yourself to mob after mob while reading a book, or doing your taxes! It took about 5% attention.

Now, I want a system that requires 80%+ attention. I want to know the people in my party are at their computers and watching their screens.

I also want mobility and position to actually mean something. Every time I think about their showcase website that boasts about where people will stand and - oh how about Lancer keeping mobs at range with its Lance so they don't get hit - Where the **** is this stuff? I foolishly thought where I stood and such would actually matter. All it seems to really influence is incapacitation (which is an interesting system, also, and I hope they work more on it) but other than that it's fairly stupid.

I want this system to be MORE enticing/entertaining. Auto-Attack is the complete lack of enticing and/or entertaining to me and my entire XI clique of friends/shellmates. It's a boring old system where you're rewarded for minimal effort every 30-40 seconds (if you haven't wandered off to get a drink while waiting for TP).

XIV hasn't really delivered what they promised, but I am sick of every time XIV doesn't deliver they scoot their happy asses back to XI systems rather than actually taking the time to make their systems - idk work better or be what they promised they would be.


I think you're missing my point. Yes i understand you can be lazy with auto attack and do campaign with 5% attendance. Can you get good exp with 5% as quick as you could by paying attention? No. Should you be able to survive with only 5% attendance? No. Just because you have an auto attack does not mean you can afk 95% of the time. They could easily adjust the mobs difficults and sp gain.

And yes i did skillchain even in endgame merit parties, post 2005, and especially in endgame events, skillchaining was always useful unless the mob had low enough hp for you to one-shot it. Besides, Whether there is an auto attack or not, alot of your fight especially as DoW are your main physical attack. Pressing a button every time you swing does not make this more work or more challenging. They can easily add an auto attack feature and make it so you cant just afk. It's not that hard.

Look back into ffxi years of leveling before they had level sync and ****. Leveling from valkurm>qufim>kazahm>garliage>crawler's>kuftal>etc. All those had camps requiring 80%+ attention from the player, and if you did not, you or members would die, and they had an auto attack. It can be achieved. And that was when it was at its prime.
#214 Feb 22 2011 at 3:23 AM Rating: Default
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simbaseraph wrote:
Kirutaru wrote:
[quote]focusing on working skillchains, using abilities, and such during fights


All those had camps requiring 80%+ attention from the player, and if you did not, you or members would die, and they had an auto attack. It can be achieved. And that was when it was at its prime.


That was the Tank and the Healer, DD's really only needed to be half paying attention. Im basing that on personal experience having leveled Paladin to 68, then getting Ranger to 38.
#215 Feb 22 2011 at 3:27 AM Rating: Excellent
MidouSan wrote:
having leveled Paladin to 68, then getting Ranger to 38.


>.>
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#216 Feb 22 2011 at 3:29 AM Rating: Decent
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MidouSan wrote:
simbaseraph wrote:
Kirutaru wrote:
[quote]focusing on working skillchains, using abilities, and such during fights


All those had camps requiring 80%+ attention from the player, and if you did not, you or members would die, and they had an auto attack. It can be achieved. And that was when it was at its prime.


That was the Tank and the Healer, DD's really only needed to be half paying attention. Im basing that on personal experience having leveled Paladin to 68, then getting Ranger to 38.


Well thats where there is a midpoint. if you didnt completely give attention as rng, maybe they wouldn't die, but you sure could chain more and faster by giving 100% attendance. Not to mention, rng is a job that didn't have an auto-attack feature that was really used, so if you are saying you did it with paying no attention, then you should be able to do this system without paying attention either, which means adding the auto attack feature would not affect it either way in terms of % focus required.
#217 Feb 22 2011 at 3:30 AM Rating: Good
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LeilaniWildfire, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
MidouSan wrote:
having leveled Paladin to 68, then getting Ranger to 38.


>.>


What, I got bored of being a tank, wanted to try DD, and had boatloads of Gil to blow from my Alchemy stuff. DD and looking for Gil to blow, what better class then Ranger to kill both those birds ;P


P.S. No, it was not for a SUBjob, although I realize now my post can be misconstrued as such, I already had Warrior to 37 before I even STARTED PLD


simbaseraph wrote:

Well thats where there is a midpoint. if you didnt completely give attention as rng, maybe they wouldn't die, but you sure could chain more and faster by giving 100% attendance. Not to mention, rng is a job that didn't have an auto-attack feature that was really used, so if you are saying you did it with paying no attention, then you should be able to do this system without paying attention either, which means adding the auto attack feature would not affect it either way in terms of % focus required.


Touche, I actually forgot about Rangers not using the auto attack in FFXI....I guess that shows how much I've forgotten in the non stop 1111111111 of XIV ..That and my current lack of sleep ^^;


Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 4:34am by MidouSan
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#218 Feb 22 2011 at 3:39 AM Rating: Good
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Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
simbaseraph wrote:
Well I have over 1100 days playtime in ffxi, and the battlesystem was my favorite part, thats where we stand different. I do not want to see a bunch of abilities being spammed always readily available. I would much rather see people focusing on working skillchains, using abilities, and such during fights, ontop of an autoattack. Whenever one is not doing an action in a battle, they should hit with their main weapon. We shouldnt have to press each hit, it isnt necessary and doesnt accomplish anything, nor make the battle system more entertaining or enticing. Rather than focus on mashing the same 500/1000 tp one of 2 ability, and the main attack, those should be applied regardless, and the user should be focusing on special abilties used outside of those, and focus on how to use those abilties with your teammates. They wouldnt be able to even add skillchains because of how chaotic abilities are spammed and how fast TP builds. I'll admit they are making a good step in the right direction by cutting party size down from 15, and hopefully it will improve. But ffxi battle system was much more challenging, and entertaining than this.
Arguably, FFXI might have a more entertaining system, but more challenging? Not really.
You had a long time to decide what you were going to do next. While that may have been (or be) more desirable, making decisions at a slower pace doesn't necessarily make the system more challenging.

simbaseraph wrote:
Also, it would not be very hard to implement an auto-attack with the stamina bar. All they need to do is make your main-weapon attack always be your current attack every time your stamina fills up, if you choose a different ability, then it will replace that loop of auto-attack with that specific ability. It's not that complicated.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 3:49am by simbaseraph
That defeats the purpose of having a stamina system in the first place.

If each action uses up the same amount of stamina, it would involve even less strategy then the current system.


Kirby, I am not trying to say that because I have played x amount of time, my opinion is superior. I have invested alot of time into this game, virtually had all 20+ jobs to 60-75+. The reason I say that is because I wanted to show that I have had plenty of experience with auto-attack on all jobs, and always did i give almost(if not) full 100% focus to battle, and was always making sure I took advantage of all my abilities/spells/skillchains.

My point being, many people think that if an auto attack is implemented, people can just be lazy and level without paying attention. While this may be true to an extent, it is also false, and cannot be done effectively. Alot of people complain about jobs not being distinctive enough from one another. As of now, the majority of a fight is just spamming attack, and it should be changed to auto-attack, while controlling job-specific abilities. This would help keep jobs diverse.
#219 Feb 22 2011 at 3:44 AM Rating: Good
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Also, because ffxiv is essentially a "faster" version of ffxi's battle system, in my opinion makes it much easier. Commanding things at a slower pace requires more attention in a sense. In ffxiv, because you build up tp so quick, if you use the wrong sc/miss a sc/etc, its effect is going to be minimal. In ffxi however, if you miss a Weapon skill, cure, provoke, etc. the effects are going to be much more devastating.
#220 Feb 22 2011 at 3:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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simbaseraph wrote:
My point being, many people think that if an auto attack is implemented, people can just be lazy and level without paying attention. While this may be true to an extent, it is also false, and cannot be done effectively. Alot of people complain about jobs not being distinctive enough from one another. As of now, the majority of a fight is just spamming attack, and it should be changed to auto-attack, while controlling job-specific abilities. This would help keep jobs diverse.
I don't think that way. I just don't want that battle system back.

It was great for FFXI. It fit how slow the combat was overall. I had plenty of experience on RDM, PLD, WHM and SAM to 75, with most jobs at 37 for subjobs.
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#221 Feb 22 2011 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
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SirEdmundBurke wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
So maybe Yoshi-P could get a little creative and instead of icons he could go for something like NPC animations. Like maybe they wave at you to try and get your attention. Something like that.


Oh no! I'd have to train myself to look at something other than the stamina bar? loljk...

Aurelius wrote:
What I think a lot of people who denounce "button mashing" (what a ridiculous term) don't realize is that the trend in MMO gaming is for more real-time, more interactive combat. Not less.


I'd be all for the button mashing IF... It involved something more interactive. Such as high/center/low normal attacks and defenses, and you had to adjust your attack and defense based on the MOB stance. That is just a very simple representation of what could be fun, it'd still have to be more intricate than that though. I'm not sure though how a battle system so involved would scale past the 100,000th kill. Might get a bit sick of being glued to the screen after you master the system.

Too bad you can't sniper headshot from 1000 yalms...

Ever play AoC? Basic attacks were all positional in that you could attack up center and lower sections of a target's side. Each was it's own attack. There were also indicators to show where the target was concentrating it's defense and you could also adjust where your defense was concentrated. Neat idea but it got kind of old.

I guess one of the big questions about AA/P2A is what would the majority of future players think? Don't think any of us are capable of saying. Is P2A a gimmick to sort of appeal to console players or is it the evolution of combat? **** if I know but I guess we'll find out.
#222 Feb 22 2011 at 8:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
They are taking the feedback given by the playerbase, oddly enough the 20 people on these forums against auto attack and quest markers are not the entire playerbase.


They should be making the game better. The playerbase seems to be just as oblivious to the good sides of auto-attack as the developers are. This does not suddenly translate to a good game mechanic.

If we can't even give any good reasons for implementing auto-attack, and instead turn to "Yoshida has a plan we don't know about"-excuse, what does it make us? I've asked for the advantages of auto-attack several times in this thread, only to be met with silence or posts that talk about mysterious terms like "immersion" and "strategy" without specifying what they actually mean and how it translates to this game in practice.

If even the people giving them feedback don't know what they are talking about, it really does not look like the game will end up better just because the developers have taken note. "Most of us" want features that we base on nostalgy and excuses that simply don't work in this day and age, like being able to socialize better. If you want these features you've gotta be able to justify them better than what we've seen in this thread.
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#223 Feb 22 2011 at 8:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
simbaseraph wrote:


Overall it seems your main issue is that changing these aspects of the game will "lose the current player."


I've stated my main issue numerous times - I like the game, I want it to succeed and I am concerned that it won't. Part of that issue, is, indeed, alienating the current player base, for sure.

We have a saying here:

"A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush."

I am concerned SE will let go of the bird in their hand, lunge for the two in the bush, and end up with no birds at all.





See what I see, is that the bird in the hand isn't paying the bills and not good enough for SE. They need to try for the two in the bush because that may actually bump their numbers up to where they're happy with their customer base. If they just held on to the birds they already have, they may as well shut down.
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#224 Feb 22 2011 at 8:33 AM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
simbaseraph wrote:


Overall it seems your main issue is that changing these aspects of the game will "lose the current player."


I've stated my main issue numerous times - I like the game, I want it to succeed and I am concerned that it won't. Part of that issue, is, indeed, alienating the current player base, for sure.

We have a saying here:

"A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush."

I am concerned SE will let go of the bird in their hand, lunge for the two in the bush, and end up with no birds at all.





See what I see, is that the bird in the hand isn't paying the bills and not good enough for SE. They need to try for the two in the bush because that may actually bump their numbers up to where they're happy with their customer base. If they just held on to the birds they already have, they may as well shut down.

^^ this. this is the point people keep missing. If this was a smaller developer with less money these servers probably would not be on right now. Does anyone know how much money SE lost with this game so far? developement aside im sure they are working around the clock to try and get this game working, and those developers need to get paid, as well as all the other expenses that go in to this game. This game would be shut down if it were by anyone else. So SE definitely needs the birds in the bush, the current playerbase will be fine too cause it is only the minority talking about walking away if changes happen. i for one have been playing since beta, the actual beta, and im ecstatic for the changes. I dont understand what people are so worried about losing in this game.
#225 Feb 22 2011 at 8:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,606 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
They are taking the feedback given by the playerbase, oddly enough the 20 people on these forums against auto attack and quest markers are not the entire playerbase.


They should be making the game better. The playerbase seems to be just as oblivious to the good sides of auto-attack as the developers are. This does not suddenly translate to a good game mechanic.

If we can't even give any good reasons for implementing auto-attack, and instead turn to "Yoshida has a plan we don't know about"-excuse, what does it make us? I've asked for the advantages of auto-attack several times in this thread, only to be met with silence or posts that talk about mysterious terms like "immersion" and "strategy" without specifying what they actually mean and how it translates to this game in practice.

If even the people giving them feedback don't know what they are talking about, it really does not look like the game will end up better just because the developers have taken note. "Most of us" want features that we base on nostalgy and excuses that simply don't work in this day and age, like being able to socialize better. If you want these features you've gotta be able to justify them better than what we've seen in this thread.

Hmm.. I guess it's a matter of opinion but I'd say it can make the experience a lot more relaxed. You can dismiss it if you'd like but I'm playing games to relax so I think it has some merit.

The only example I've seen given where P2A was better that wasn't also purely opinion was the example of a sleep dagger proc or something like that.
#226 Feb 22 2011 at 8:44 AM Rating: Default
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2,202 posts
Abhy wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Abhy wrote:
MrTalos wrote:
Abhy wrote:
All this crap cause patch 1.15b didnt have content? Jesus have a little patience, the game is f2p for that reason and sh*t, programming and fixing a game is not a quick and easy task. If your upset about the 20-60$ you spent on ff14 then your poor as sh*t and instead of posting here on zam maybe you should look for a job and if you updated your rig b4 trying the game thats your problem. Give Yoshi some time to do what he has planned, now that SE is communicating w/ their players you are bashing the sh*t out of them, just be patient.

First.. I have to kind of chuckle because it's sort of ironic that you'd say that to her (think it was her) considering they were once one of the people trying to find the positive in things and saying be patient from time to time.

Second.. I think some concerns are valid. I don't exactly agree with the OP and kind of feel the opposite about a lot of what was posted but the direction of the game is sort of up in the air now. It could be for the better or it could make it much worse. Hopefully things will become more clear soon. I see things differently than the OP but also have to wonder if they will attempt to be everything to everyone and end up ostracizing the people they have now as well as not even get/keep the new players they hope for.

Third.. I think I spent around $80 for the CE but it's not about the money. I've wasted far more money and gotten far less from some other things so it's not about that. IMO it has a lot more to do with companies thinking they can walk all over their loyalist customers. That it's OK to release a game that seems like it was released before anyone had even decided what direction it should go in. That the loyal fans will just suck it up so it's alright to treat them like foot stools.


lol my post was rather sarcastic, and it was not directed at the OP just ppl in general, patience is needed, this game wont be fixed in 2 weeks worth of work, almost every aspect of the game, UI, classes, battle etc needs to be completely revamped as the above poster said.


It's been half a year already......


Since Yoshi took over? Mind showing me the those facts of when he took control over the game? And yah non-patience is why this game failed at release, Don't wanna rush quick fixes and make ppl happy for what a month?


Yoshi is just a character, you do know that most of the fixes and changes and the changes everybody is praising came from the old dev team right ?

Fact is yoshi been at the helm for what ? 2-3 months ? and nothing has changed, the only thing that has changed is that now, we got some dumb polls that leave more questions than answers every time they are asked, and when they are asked wtf do they mean, they give some vague answer or the usual "Yeah we are working on something" but never tell us exactly what they are actually gonna do.
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#227 Feb 22 2011 at 8:55 AM Rating: Good
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3,416 posts
Quote:
Hmm.. I guess it's a matter of opinion but I'd say it can make the experience a lot more relaxed. You can dismiss it if you'd like but I'm playing games to relax so I think it has some merit.

The only example I've seen given where P2A was better that wasn't also purely opinion was the example of a sleep dagger proc or something like that.


Whether the majority of players (existing and potential) are looking for "more relaxing gameplay" is what's important. More relaxing = less involving. That's what you may be looking for, but if that's really what most people are looking for out of their video game- I gotta say SE has acquired quite the special fanbase that doesn't really want to play their games.

If the majority of players are not looking for less involving gameplay and instead something more involving and 'challenging'- this change really isn't improving anything. For SE's sake I hope most people are like you, but it does not make sense.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#228 Feb 22 2011 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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435 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
So what are you saying really? Most players don't bother to understand their roles and use a more defined strategy even though the game gives them the tools to do so? I dunno. That's pretty iffy statement.


I'm saying that enough people tried to play the game and then promptly left because systems like the battle system were so bad.

Combat is the core of every MMO. Either the combat at least needs to be fully functional or the game can expect to wind up basically as FFXIV has wound up.
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#229 Feb 22 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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9,526 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:


We have a saying here:

"A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush."

I am concerned SE will let go of the bird in their hand, lunge for the two in the bush, and end up with no birds at all.





See what I see, is that the bird in the hand isn't paying the bills and not good enough for SE. They need to try for the two in the bush because that may actually bump their numbers up to where they're happy with their customer base. If they just held on to the birds they already have, they may as well shut down.



What I see is that SE needs to hold on to the bird they have, build a nice home for it, then go hunting for birds in the bush. Because 1 bird is still better than no birds, and the money spent on development is spent, so while they may not make it back with the existing playerbase, they could at least make something (my understanding is it wouldn't take many subs to pay the basic bills of running the thing) while maintaining a population in their game, cause I don't know many people that want to join a game once the population is completely gone.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#230 Feb 22 2011 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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435 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
What I see is that SE needs to hold on to the bird they have, build a nice home for it, then go hunting for birds in the bush. Because 1 bird is still better than no birds, and the money spent on development is spent, so while they may not make it back with the existing playerbase, they could at least make something (my understanding is it wouldn't take many subs to pay the basic bills of running the thing) while maintaining a population in their game, cause I don't know many people that want to join a game once the population is completely gone.


FIguratively speaking, SE is holding a finch right now.

That finch ain't gonna feed a family, so they either catch a turkey or die trying.

Let's use another more relevant metaphor...

Imagine an ocean liner ship is sinking. The side of the ship is labeled with it's name "Final Fantasy XIV". Now, we can see into the bowels of the ship, where a young Japanese man named "Yoshi-P" is furiously hammering planks over huge leaks, desperately trying to keep the ship from sinking. Now along comes a "fan" of FFXIV, who grabs Yoshi-P by the arm mid-hammer and shouts "NO! DON'T DO IT!!! I LIKE THE SHIP JUST THE WAY IT IS!!!! IT JUST NEEDS MORE STUFF ON BOARD!!"

Now imagine that the same "fan" is being hurled off the ship. That' what's happening here.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 11:24am by TheRealDestian
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#231 Feb 22 2011 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
2 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
Kirutaru wrote:
So what are you saying really? Most players don't bother to understand their roles and use a more defined strategy even though the game gives them the tools to do so? I dunno. That's pretty iffy statement.


I'm saying that enough people tried to play the game and then promptly left because systems like the battle system were so bad.

Combat is the core of every MMO. Either the combat at least needs to be fully functional or the game can expect to wind up basically as FFXIV has wound up.


So, what exactly is wrong with the battle system? Everyone's saying it needs to be completely overhauled, but no ones said why.
#232 Feb 22 2011 at 10:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,606 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Hmm.. I guess it's a matter of opinion but I'd say it can make the experience a lot more relaxed. You can dismiss it if you'd like but I'm playing games to relax so I think it has some merit.

The only example I've seen given where P2A was better that wasn't also purely opinion was the example of a sleep dagger proc or something like that.


Whether the majority of players (existing and potential) are looking for "more relaxing gameplay" is what's important. More relaxing = less involving. That's what you may be looking for, but if that's really what most people are looking for out of their video game- I gotta say SE has acquired quite the special fanbase that doesn't really want to play their games.

If the majority of players are not looking for less involving gameplay and instead something more involving and 'challenging'- this change really isn't improving anything. For SE's sake I hope most people are like you, but it does not make sense.

Are we still hoping FFXIV becomes a major player in the MMO market or another niche MMO? The problem we run into is unless they are going niche, they probably have to try to do both. The bigger problem is they could end up failing at both. It often seems each step towards one style moves you farther away from the other.
#233 Feb 22 2011 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
I am not so sure why people think that auto-attack enables you to walk away from your computer while your character kills the monsters for you - surely that is botting!!!

So... how many fights you have while you are playing where you don't cast any spells, do any weaponskills, move away from mobs fatal moves (gnats, moles) etc.?

Surely we are not talking about automating all the frigging abilities in the game, we are talking about the very basic attack that just makes you spam one key....

With auto-attack you could plan BRs better, consentrate on single healing (instead of AOE spam) and using your abilities to the max. AND what's better (at least in my opinnion) if it happens that someone knocks on your door in the middle of the fight, you could actually open the door for the person and run back to your game without losing your TP.
I am not for AFKing while fighting at all (wasnt in 11 either, and btw you could always tell who went afk in 11 parties) but imo -especially in FFXIV - auto attack would not make much difference to your "ability to go afk while your character does the job for you" because it wouldn't.... well unless you fought something that dies in 2 hits and then after that you would be standing there like a moron anyway cos you wouldnt be engaged...

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 11:37am by LeilaniWildfire
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#234 Feb 22 2011 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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351 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
simbaseraph wrote:


Overall it seems your main issue is that changing these aspects of the game will "lose the current player."


I've stated my main issue numerous times - I like the game, I want it to succeed and I am concerned that it won't. Part of that issue, is, indeed, alienating the current player base, for sure.

We have a saying here:

"A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush."

I am concerned SE will let go of the bird in their hand, lunge for the two in the bush, and end up with no birds at all.


You're concerned it won't succeed when you should be worried that it currently isn't succeeding.

Do you think SE would be offering free play time and ingratiating themselves to what players are left, begging you to give them another chance, if everything was fine?

Obviously, there's not enough players left to keep the game financially afloat. They can offer free play time because the revenue from charging people wouldn't be worth it, anyway. If SE keeps FFXIV as the same-old-same-old you insist on keeping around, and all that time perfecting your character will be months of your life you'll never get back when the game fails for good. There aren't enough people like you who want things to stay the same, otherwise the crisis wouldn't exist.

Let's be honest. You may think you're playing to "hold the game together" but what you really are is an unpaid beta tester. Or rather, you spent $60 to be an unpaid beta tester who gets to keep your characters when this "test phase" is over.

SE doesn't have a bird in the hand. It's only the decoy.
#235 Feb 22 2011 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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3,416 posts
Quote:
With auto-attack you could plan BRs better


You do this before the fight, not during it.

Quote:
consentrate on single healing (instead of AOE spam)


Why would you do that? Why does push to attack suddenly stop you from doing that?

Quote:
using your abilities to the max.


Are you really so overwhelmed with the current system that you can't do this as-is? This game is not hard to play efficiently even right now.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#236 Feb 22 2011 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
44 posts
Vigtyr wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
Kirutaru wrote:
So what are you saying really? Most players don't bother to understand their roles and use a more defined strategy even though the game gives them the tools to do so? I dunno. That's pretty iffy statement.


I'm saying that enough people tried to play the game and then promptly left because systems like the battle system were so bad.

Combat is the core of every MMO. Either the combat at least needs to be fully functional or the game can expect to wind up basically as FFXIV has wound up.


So, what exactly is wrong with the battle system? Everyone's saying it needs to be completely overhauled, but no ones said why.



Been asking this to myself since the first time it was mentioned. Targeting(yes), Hotbar/hotkey layout(yes), glitches in accepting commands(yes). All of those are directly related to the UI. Which no one would have a problem with improving.

Instead, people want to remove player input in combat, remove cross class skills, remove stat allocation, remove... remove... remove...

What about expanding upopn?
#237 Feb 22 2011 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
With auto-attack you could plan BRs better


You do this before the fight, not during it.

Quote:
consentrate on single healing (instead of AOE spam)


Why would you do that? Why does push to attack suddenly stop you from doing that?

Quote:
using your abilities to the max.


Are you really so overwhelmed with the current system that you can't do this as-is? This game is not hard to play efficiently even right now.


So before every fight you stop and plan BRs with you party mates? Ever heard of winging things and having great ideas while things are happening?
Also I guess you are one of the people who think the AOE curing and targeting is just fine now as it is....

Obviously if they brought the auto-attack they would have to adjust the difficulty of the monsters as well so they wouldn't die with few hits. It has nothing to do with "me being overwhelmed with abilities"... I am pretty sure in the future we will see more abilities that actually require strategy instead of spamfest.
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#238 Feb 22 2011 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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What's wrong with the battle system? Oh I don't know, the input lag is pretty ridiculous today. The fact that the stamina bar will still show you the wrong skills on cast (whenever that actually happens)

It's just painful, really.
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#239 Feb 22 2011 at 11:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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435 posts
Vigtyr wrote:
So, what exactly is wrong with the battle system? Everyone's saying it needs to be completely overhauled, but no ones said why.


I really don't want to get into another mile-long quote-fest of semantics and opinion, so I'll be brief:

-laggy response time on all actions feels less like I'm controlling my character and more like issuing commands that execute later (ala Starcraft or another RTS).
-up and down arrows to scroll the action bars often don't work and I need to click on the bar before it will respond to button presses.
-the next action being queued often shows the wrong action (as in a different action is actually queued).
-too many skills that aren't worth placing on the action bar and either need to be axed or improved to not be incredibly situational.
-laggy response means there is no "twitch" gameplay: I cannot see that a monster is charging a TP attack and hit it with a special disabling attack in time, especially if I already have an attack queued.
-laggy response means that, if I have an ability queued when a monster starts charging a TP attack, I cannot move away in time as the action will go off whether I want it to or not, meaning I will get hit by the TP attack.
-attack animations happen AFTER damage, meaning that I see the damage done first, then the animation happens, destroying the flow of combat (seriously, half the fun of combat is watching your character raise their sword/axe up and then bring it down, delivering a devastating attack as we watch the the high damage number pop up. The current system completely denies us that feeling).
-lack of any reliable crowd control.
-no strategy beyond tank and spank or spam regimens.
-you can't kite, you can't CC, you can't reliably stun. All of these give different classes different approaches for how to deal with combat, making it varied and interesting. Without this, every class fights every monster the same way: attack it until it dies or you die.
-90% of all combat consists of mashing the 1 button until the monster dies.

If you disagree with these sentiments, remember that enough would-be FFXIV players did not disagree and it's their money that will keep this ship afloat.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 12:26pm by TheRealDestian
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#240 Feb 22 2011 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
TheRealDestian wrote:
Vigtyr wrote:
So, what exactly is wrong with the battle system? Everyone's saying it needs to be completely overhauled, but no ones said why.


I really don't want to get into another mile-long quote-fest of semantics and opinion, so I'll be brief:

-laggy response time on all actions feels less like I'm controlling my character and more like issuing commands that execute later (ala Starcraft or another RTS).
-up and down arrows to scroll the action bars often don't work and I need to click on the bar before it will respond to button presses.
-too many skills that aren't worth placing on the action bar and either need to be axed or improved to not be incredibly situational.
-laggy response means there is no "twitch" gameplay: I cannot see that a monster is charging a TP attack and hit it with a special disabling attack in time, especially if I already have an attack queued.
-laggy response means that, if I have an ability queued when a monster starts charging a TP attack, I cannot move away in time as the action will go off whether I want it to or not, meaning I will get hit by the TP attack.
-attack animations happen AFTER damage, meaning that I see the damage done first, then the animation happens, destroying the flow of combat (seriously, half the fun of combat is watching your character raise their sword/axe up and then bring it down, delivering a devastating attack as we watch the the high damage number pop up. The current system completely denies us that feeling).
-lack of any reliable crowd control.
-no strategy beyond tank and spank or spam regimens.
-you can't kite, you can't CC, you can't reliably stun. All of these give different classes different approaches for how to deal with combat, making it varied and interesting. Without this, every class fights every monster the same way: attack it until it dies or you die.
-90% of all combat consists of mashing the 1 button until the monster dies.

If you disagree with these sentiments, remember that enough would-be FFXIV players did not disagree and it's their money that will keep this ship afloat.


100% agree with this ^^
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#241 Feb 22 2011 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So before every fight you stop and plan BRs with you party mates? Ever heard of winging things and having great ideas while things are happening?


Of course, which is why voice chat should be implemented instead of making us write novels during the battle. Anything else is an excuse at best.

Quote:
Also I guess you are one of the people who think the AOE curing and targeting is just fine now as it is....


No, but it has nothing to do with push-to-attack, which is why I think it is irrelevant to the discussion. AoE heals are too strong compared to single target heals, and implementing auto-attack will not fix this.

Quote:
I am pretty sure in the future we will see more abilities that actually require strategy instead of spamfest.


This, also, has nothing to do with auto-attack (you are talking about abilities when the encounter difficulty determines whether we will need strategy or simply keep spamming our strongest skills. Push-to-attack does not suddenly translate to the developers being unable to create challenging content). Everything mentioned above can be fixed without even touching the push-to-attack mechanic. Auto-attack does not fix any problems mentioned above, and if it does, it is not acceptable solution when better, generally accepted and standard alternatives exist.

Quote:
-too many skills that aren't worth placing on the action bar and either need to be axed or improved to not be incredibly situational.

-no strategy beyond tank and spank or spam regimens.

-90% of all combat consists of mashing the 1 button until the monster dies.


None of these are a problem with the battle system. There are no encounters in the game that would require us to set situational skills. There are no encounters that require strategy beyond tank and spank. Monsters are so easy that all you need to do is spam one button until the monster dies.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 8:34pm by Hyanmen
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#242 Feb 22 2011 at 11:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,675 posts
This isn't an ad for Rift nor a bash on FFXIV, just some things I've noticed:

The more I played Rift, the more I noticed that it did and does things like auto-attack right. Auto attack in Rift is really weak and inconsequential BUT the attacks you spam aren't. They're cool and worthwhile to use.

Now Rift and FFXIV are two totally different games with two totally different mindsets and approaches to the genre.

Rift, you can say, is a WoW clone to the T (while improving on some elements), while FFXIV strives to be it's own game and make it's own path.

FFXIV's path of originality is fine, but it needs to work. It didn't and it hasn't really worked so far (for most people). I think, although a dead horse, the botched launch made people second guess how to make a good game; that things like auto-attack and AH's need to be in place, when in fact they don't. If SE launched with the retainer system that's currently in place and perhaps a battle system that's the same but with a bit more pizazz, that might have quelled some of the voices (including mine)...

Though I agree somewhat with Olorinus, SE can do well, but only if they play to their strengths not water down the game. If there was tons more content endgame and otherwise, we might not even be having this conversation.

The reason why I brought up Rift is for this reason; That game is obviously trying to cater to a lot of people through very familiar means, but you know what, it's engaging, dynamic, and really becomes it's own game. Lastly, it's just fun to play. The danger is obviously, a watered down experience, but I don't really see it that way, at least not yet.

The bones of FFXIV are a lot better than they were 6 months ago but if there were two things FFXIV should have borrowed from other MMO's, that would be content and the pacing of that content. Everything else could remain the same.

In the end I still really want FFXIV to succeed but I'm not sure I'll be there to see it.
#243 Feb 22 2011 at 11:39 AM Rating: Decent
44 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
Vigtyr wrote:
So, what exactly is wrong with the battle system? Everyone's saying it needs to be completely overhauled, but no ones said why.


I really don't want to get into another mile-long quote-fest of semantics and opinion, so I'll be brief:

-laggy response time on all actions feels less like I'm controlling my character and more like issuing commands that execute later (ala Starcraft or another RTS). UI/latency problem, fix that, as I said in my post

-up and down arrows to scroll the action bars often don't work and I need to click on the bar before it will respond to button presses. UI/latency problem, fix that, as I said in my post

-the next action being queued often shows the wrong action (as in a different action is actually queued). Graphical display with the UI, fix that, as I said in my post

-too many skills that aren't worth placing on the action bar and either need to be axed or improved to not be incredibly situational. Can agree with this, why do we need to remove the armory system for this though?

-laggy response means there is no "twitch" gameplay: I cannot see that a monster is charging a TP attack and hit it with a special disabling attack in time, especially if I already have an attack queued. Fix. UI. Latency. As. I said. In. My. Post.

-laggy response means that, if I have an ability queued when a monster starts charging a TP attack, I cannot move away in time as the action will go off whether I want it to or not, meaning I will get hit by the TP attack. Latency, again, seems to be a recurring theme here, and the UI of course!

-attack animations happen AFTER damage, meaning that I see the damage done first, then the animation happens, destroying the flow of combat (seriously, half the fun of combat is watching your character raise their sword/axe up and then bring it down, delivering a devastating attack as we watch the the high damage number pop up. The current system completely denies us that feeling). What does auto attack do for this?

-lack of any reliable crowd control. Sleep, Silence, Blind, aren't those CC? Roots? Snares? Aren't those CC. Now I'm all for more abilities and making the current ones work more reliably, I can't see this as a reason for a 'drastic and complete overhaul'Bold Text

-no strategy beyond tank and spank or spam regimens. Isn't that a problem with the mob AI/encounter design, and not with ya know the combat system itself?

-you can't kite, you can't CC, you can't reliably stun. All of these give different classes different approaches for how to deal with combat, making it varied and interesting. Without this, every class fights every monster the same way: attack it until it dies or you die. I'm curious why tweaking the obviously underperforming abilities warrants drastic overhaul.

-90% of all combat consists of mashing the 1 button until the monster dies. 90% of statistics are made up on the spot, this isn't even a point.

If you disagree with these sentiments, remember that enough would-be FFXIV players did not disagree and it's their money that will keep this ship afloat. I would disagree that the reasons you stated were the reasons why 'enough' people left.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 12:26pm by TheRealDestian


So as I suspected, it's the UI/latency(due to every action double checking confirm). So how about make a better UI first... like was promised. Not a single one of those reasons warrants ripping apart the current system and replacing it.
#244 Feb 22 2011 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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435 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
None of these are a problem with the battle system. There are no encounters in the game that would require us to set situational skills. There are no encounters that require strategy beyond tank and spank. Monsters are so easy that all you need to do is spam one button until the monster dies.


The "battle system" encompasses all abilities, skills and encounters that involve battle.

If these aren't part of the battle system, what system are they?
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#245 Feb 22 2011 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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291 posts
I think it's a discussion about FFXIV's approach to battle...vs the implementation of said approach. A bunch of stuff is bugged/working poorly (as seen in above list capturing numerous issues). I'd rather see a battle system where the bugs in it are addressed, and some enhancements made to it prior to getting some vague overhaul. Although with how patches are going, 'overhaul' could mean very little real change...
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#246 Feb 22 2011 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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435 posts
Seikninkuru wrote:
So as I suspected, it's the UI/latency(due to every action double checking confirm). So how about make a better UI first... like was promised. Not a single one of those reasons warrants ripping apart the current system and replacing it.


It's not just "UI Lag" that's the problem: the battle system is designed around queuing attacks, not executing attacks on button press, hence why no amount of improving UI lag is going to fix the issue.

I would be ECSTATIC if they ripped out this sorry excuse for a battle system and replaced it with a system where actions happened the moment you pressed the button, you could react to monster's and counter them accordingly (without your next queued action ******** you over) and there was strategy to a fight beyond tank n' spank.

Also, combat is THE most important part of any MMO. I guarantee that the shoddy battle system is why FFXIV has lost the majority of its playerbase.


Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 12:50pm by TheRealDestian
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#247 Feb 22 2011 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
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3,416 posts
Quote:
The "battle system" encompasses all abilities, skills and encounters that involve battle.

If these aren't part of the battle system, what system are they?


It's a problem with the content and its difficulty. If the content is not up to par with the battle system, the combat system will never be fully fleshed out.

For example, during one encounter with two imps me and my group had to alternate between stunning skills to keep the imps from killing us with magic. The strategy is there when the content makes it so we need it.

Quote:
It's not just "UI Lag" that's the problem: the battle system is designed around queuing attacks, not executing attacks on button press, hence why no amount of improving UI lag is going to fix the issue.


Meh. Make all skills execute on button press, problem solved.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 8:50pm by Hyanmen
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#248 Feb 22 2011 at 11:50 AM Rating: Decent
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435 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
For example, during one encounter with two imps me and my group had to alternate between stunning skills to keep the imps from killing us with magic. The strategy is there when the content makes it so we need it.


Yes, but battle content is part of the battle system. Encounters also need to be brought up to par, there's no denying that.
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#249 Feb 22 2011 at 11:50 AM Rating: Decent
44 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
Seikninkuru wrote:
So as I suspected, it's the UI/latency(due to every action double checking confirm). So how about make a better UI first... like was promised. Not a single one of those reasons warrants ripping apart the current system and replacing it.


It's not just "UI Lag" that's the problem: the battle system is designed around queuing attacks, not executing attacks on button press, hence why no amount of improving UI lag is going to fix the issue.

I would be ECSTATIC if they ripped out this sorry excuse for a battle system and replaced it with a system where actions happened the moment you pressed the button, you could react to monster's and counter them accordingly and there was strategy to a fight beyond tank n' spank.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 12:47pm by TheRealDestian


I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you're trying to say by queuing attacks. I do know what queuing attacks means in most games, but in this one it doesn't work out. Could they not just have a faster execution of your input? Sorry, I just don't follow your logic.
#250 Feb 22 2011 at 11:50 AM Rating: Decent
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TheRealDestian wrote:
Seikninkuru wrote:
So as I suspected, it's the UI/latency(due to every action double checking confirm). So how about make a better UI first... like was promised. Not a single one of those reasons warrants ripping apart the current system and replacing it.


It's not just "UI Lag" that's the problem: the battle system is designed around queuing attacks, not executing attacks on button press, hence why no amount of improving UI lag is going to fix the issue.

I would be ECSTATIC if they ripped out this sorry excuse for a battle system and replaced it with a system where actions happened the moment you pressed the button, you could react to monster's and counter them accordingly and there was strategy to a fight beyond tank n' spank.

Also, combat is THE most important part of any MMO. I guarantee that the shoddy battle system is why FFXIV has lost the majority of its playerbase.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 12:48pm by TheRealDestian



What about a battle system kind of like TES?
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#251 Feb 22 2011 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
Kierk wrote:


The bones of FFXIV are a lot better than they were 6 months ago but if there were two things FFXIV should have borrowed from other MMO's, that would be content and the pacing of that content. Everything else could remain the same.


I honestly believe this as well. Obviously the UI problems (actions not firing when you press the button, general lag, bugginess etc) need to be fixed - but at its core the battle mechanics are fun - I really like skills like haymaker and feint and phalanx - and I like making different builds (spike damage build, evasion tank build, positional damage build etc)

I see people like **** Butte up there talking smack about the system and honestly, I can't believe they have even tried to make an effort to play well. Yeah, you can spam 1 against loleasy prey and rank up (albeit slowly and inefficiently) if you want to - but the game isn't making you do that.

If you have trouble using skills like haymaker etc at the current pace of battle either you are lagging out and may need to tone down your settings/ boost the performance of your computer - or you are just not very good at the game.

The only argument I've seen in favour of auto-attack that isn't just fairy dust is the argument that "it will make chatting during battle easier" and I just think that is a p1ss poor reason to waste time ripping apart the whole system.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


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