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Feeling less confident about the future of XIVFollow

#252 Feb 22 2011 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
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Yes, but battle content is part of the battle system.


Semantics.. I like keeping them separate, makes it more obvious for everyone involved. Now we get posts where people talk about changing battle mechanics which would suddenly fixes problems related to battle content, which is not true. People are confusing them.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 8:55pm by Hyanmen
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#253 Feb 22 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Kierk wrote:


The bones of FFXIV are a lot better than they were 6 months ago but if there were two things FFXIV should have borrowed from other MMO's, that would be content and the pacing of that content. Everything else could remain the same.


I honestly believe this as well. Obviously the UI problems (actions not firing when you press the button, general lag, bugginess etc) need to be fixed - but at its core the battle mechanics are fun - I really like skills like haymaker and feint and phalanx - and I like making different builds (spike damage build, evasion tank build, positional damage build etc)

I see people like **** Butte up there talking smack about the system and honestly, I can't believe they have even tried to make an effort to play well. Yeah, you can spam 1 against loleasy prey and rank up (albeit slowly and inefficiently) if you want to - but the game isn't making you do that.

If you have trouble using skills like haymaker etc at the current pace of battle either you are lagging out and may need to tone down your settings/ boost the performance of your computer - or you are just not very good at the game.

The only argument I've seen in favour of auto-attack that isn't just fairy dust is the argument that "it will make chatting during battle easier" and I just think that is a p1ss poor reason to waste time ripping apart the whole system.


Pretty much. D:
#254 Feb 22 2011 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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Seikninkuru wrote:
I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you're trying to say by queuing attacks. I do know what queuing attacks means in most games, but in this one it doesn't work out. Could they not just have a faster execution of your input? Sorry, I just don't follow your logic.


Currently, the battle system is queuing attacks, as in it takes (I think) up to 3 inputs and places them in a list to go off in the order they happened (we can only see the next attack to execute, however).

The problem with this is that, aside from attacks happening when you didn't push the button, it also means that your queued attacks will keep happening when the situation changes and you don't WANT them to happen, such as when a monster begins charging a TP attack.

This makes the system self-defeating, as you're encouraged to queue multiple attacks to be as efficient as possible, yet doing so can ***** you over because you cannot react to monsters' TP attacks.
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#255 Feb 22 2011 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
The only argument I've seen in favour of auto-attack that isn't just fairy dust is the argument that "it will make chatting during battle easier" and I just think that is a p1ss poor reason to waste time ripping apart the whole system.


For the record, I don't particularly care for auto attack, but I still think the battle system isn't worth saving in its current state. It's the opposite of fun, really. Instead of feeling like I'm truly locked in combat with dangerous beasts, I feel like I'm just waiting for the arbitrary stamina bar to tick up to the point where I can execute the next attack.

If they could implement keypress = immediate action, I'd be a lot happier with it at least.

But I would shed no tears for its passing.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 1:08pm by TheRealDestian
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#256 Feb 22 2011 at 12:08 PM Rating: Default
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Seikninkuru wrote:
Vigtyr wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
Kirutaru wrote:
So what are you saying really? Most players don't bother to understand their roles and use a more defined strategy even though the game gives them the tools to do so? I dunno. That's pretty iffy statement.


I'm saying that enough people tried to play the game and then promptly left because systems like the battle system were so bad.

Combat is the core of every MMO. Either the combat at least needs to be fully functional or the game can expect to wind up basically as FFXIV has wound up.


So, what exactly is wrong with the battle system? Everyone's saying it needs to be completely overhauled, but no ones said why.



Been asking this to myself since the first time it was mentioned. Targeting(yes), Hotbar/hotkey layout(yes), glitches in accepting commands(yes).


Targeting - Yep.

Hotbar/hotkey layout? **** no lol. It's the least intrusive layout of any MMO. I like not seeing rows upon rows of abilities to click..

Latency problems - Yes.

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#257 Feb 22 2011 at 12:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Tactical teamplay battles > multi-solo spamfest.
Skillchains >>>> Battle Regimens.
Reacting to what happens >> Skill rotations. (Good: Haymaker, Phalanx)

There's quite a few things they tried to do right; but just like the armory
system, it didn't work out as expected.
#258 Feb 22 2011 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Instead of feeling like I'm truly locked in combat with dangerous beasts, I feel like I'm just waiting for the arbitrary stamina bar to tick up to the point where I can execute the next attack.


Truth be told, that's why Demon's Souls was such a badly received game too. It had a battle system not worth saving.

Quote:
There's quite a few things they tried to do right; but just like the armory
system, it didn't work out as expected.


Sadly, it worked out just as well as you would expect when you release the game before said features are complete. And now, instead of completing them, they will do something else half-assedly instead.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 9:14pm by Hyanmen
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#259 Feb 22 2011 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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I hate the idea of queuing .. in its current state anyways. There needs to be more twitch, and the ability to cancel a spirit dart for a heal (for example). Having one line in your log saying you are readying an action sucks, quite frankly. It needs to be more visible.

The fact I need like 3 actions (2 I suppose in most situations) to cast one spell is unacceptable as well. The only work-around are macros, which could be fine, except they are solely accessible via alt/ctrl + hotkey. I use a mouse and keyboard to try and have better reaction time (like hitting action with mouse and hitting the Return key .25s later .... need to map these to primary hotbar.

Hotbar should not be the same as the WS bar for jobs. WS etc should be set with job, and swap with jobs. The hotbar should be setup independently .... BS when swapping from an r50 job to an r20.

Heals/Buffs should be statically set to AoE, and a static widget for DD/Debuff spells (for AoE on/off). The select target is helpful in some situations (healing etc), maybe have the "target lock" setting also allow 1 click/key casting. Hit "C" to drop out.

...or they increase the queue, make it part of the GUI and call it a strategy game. Auto-attack is silly .. unless its your base "dps" like some games and augmented by WS. But the stamina system completely fights that.

My last beef is stamina / MP/ cast bar / recast time. There should not be 4 limiting factors to my spell casting. Getting cast delays due to lack of stamina + cast times = too limiting.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 1:43pm by SpelunkerOne
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#260 Feb 22 2011 at 12:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Truth be told, that's why Demon's Souls was such a badly received game too. It had a battle system not worth saving.


Deomn's Souls wasn't poorly received. It has an 89 / 100 score on Metacritic and is considered one of the more successful games on the PS3.
#261 Feb 22 2011 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Sadly, it worked out just as well as you would expect when you release the game before said features are complete. And now, instead of completing them, they will do something else half-assedly instead.


True, but remember that the guy who initially had that vision A) isn't in charge any longer (who knows if he's still working at SE at all?) and B) thought the vision was complete enough to ship the game in the state it shipped in.

At this point, Yoshi-P doing what he sees as best is really the only option here.
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#262 Feb 22 2011 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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TheRealDestian wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
What I see is that SE needs to hold on to the bird they have, build a nice home for it, then go hunting for birds in the bush. Because 1 bird is still better than no birds, and the money spent on development is spent, so while they may not make it back with the existing playerbase, they could at least make something (my understanding is it wouldn't take many subs to pay the basic bills of running the thing) while maintaining a population in their game, cause I don't know many people that want to join a game once the population is completely gone.


FIguratively speaking, SE is holding a finch right now.

That finch ain't gonna feed a family, so they either catch a turkey or die trying.

Let's use another more relevant metaphor...

Imagine an ocean liner ship is sinking. The side of the ship is labeled with it's name "Final Fantasy XIV". Now, we can see into the bowels of the ship, where a young Japanese man named "Yoshi-P" is furiously hammering planks over huge leaks, desperately trying to keep the ship from sinking. Now along comes a "fan" of FFXIV, who grabs Yoshi-P by the arm mid-hammer and shouts "NO! DON'T DO IT!!! I LIKE THE SHIP JUST THE WAY IT IS!!!! IT JUST NEEDS MORE STUFF ON BOARD!!"

Now imagine that the same "fan" is being hurled off the ship. That' what's happening here.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 11:24am by TheRealDestian


LOL That made my giggle
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#263 Feb 22 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Deomn's Souls wasn't poorly received. It has an 89 / 100 score on Metacritic and is considered one of the more successful games on the PS3.


What? No.. that can't be. The game used similar stamina bar style system, it can't be well received! It's gotta be a poor system no matter how you slice it.
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#264 Feb 22 2011 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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MidouSan wrote:
simbaseraph wrote:
Kirutaru wrote:
[quote]focusing on working skillchains, using abilities, and such during fights


All those had camps requiring 80%+ attention from the player, and if you did not, you or members would die, and they had an auto attack. It can be achieved. And that was when it was at its prime.


That was the Tank and the Healer, DD's really only needed to be half paying attention. Im basing that on personal experience having leveled Paladin to 68, then getting Ranger to 38.



Im sorry but I feel you're very wrong here!

You didn't even make it to 75 let alone 80 or 85

melee's can no longer and never did pay less attention than a mage or tank

only time you really can look away was between maybe 25-40, when you are at an in between
when it comes to accuracy and tp generation.

I have two jobs at 80+ and many between 50-70 for various reasons. Both times never have I or been in a party
that was afk'd for 95% of the time spent fighting. Especially once ToaU hit when melee could have 100% between 25-45 seconds and have to be able to spam abilities and weapon skills.

I played ranger and warrior to max level until the recent increases, meaning I know what auto attack and spamming 1 button to attack when using a bow/gun at a proper distance.

I am sorry but your post is very much fail and wrong.

As far as the current system. I do not play much melee except to grab some extra sp and get a few more rank 20 or below skills to add to my mage builds. I like the current system but i do feel some changes need to be done to allow large party organization and battle to be more understandable and less hectic while still keeping battle pace up. I have no suggestions at this time for SE and I am waiting and seeing what happens.

To the OP olo i know is nerve racking trying to decipher SE these days, I feel they us much as us the left over playerbase wants nothing more then success with busy and bustling servers. Looking at the battle system, I highly doubt SE will do a full re-code on it. Will they test and try different things sure they will, this is unofficial beta after all.

I wouldn't stress too much about the next round of in game mechanics changes that will eventually hit, i am worried more so about when and what content will we finally be getting in the short term until SE sets its direction in stone.


#265 Feb 22 2011 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
What? No.. that can't be. The game used similar stamina bar style system, it can't be well received! It's gotta be a poor system no matter how you slice it.


The system could work beautifully for DS and yet still be total crap for FFXIV or any other game.

I agree with Spelunker: why do we have ability cooldowns AND a stamina bar?
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#266 Feb 22 2011 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
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The system could work beautifully for DS and yet still be total crap for FFXIV or any other game.


Hey, that only applies to everything :/.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 10:12pm by Hyanmen
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#267 Feb 22 2011 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
The system could work beautifully for DS and yet still be total crap for FFXIV or any other game.


Hey, that only applies to everything :/.


Yes, which is why a stamina bar ain't what the doctor ordered for FFXIV, especially when we already have skill cooldowns.

Seriously, it's a global cooldown bar on top of existing cooldowns. They should axe one or the other.
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#268 Feb 22 2011 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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Seriously, it's a global cooldown bar on top of existing cooldowns. They should axe one or the other.


Why?
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#269 Feb 22 2011 at 1:19 PM Rating: Default
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cry/cry/cry *****/*****/*****

Learn patience, if impossible cry/cry/cry *****/*****/***** more on these forums ~

(play something else in the meanwhile)

Peace!

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#270 Feb 22 2011 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Seriously, it's a global cooldown bar on top of existing cooldowns. They should axe one or the other.


Why?


Because the whole purpose of cooldowns is to balance potent attacks by limiting the number of times players can use them in a certain timespan.

The stamina bar doubles this up by ensuring that players can't use too many actions period within a certain timespan.

I'd say axe the stamina bar. It does nothing for overall strategy and only serves to place a second global cooldown timer on everything in the game...
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#271 Feb 22 2011 at 1:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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BoltSavior wrote:
cry/cry/cry *****/*****/*****

Learn patience, if impossible cry/cry/cry *****/*****/***** more on these forums ~

(play something else in the meanwhile)

Peace!

FF Fanboy Bolt !!!


Patience. It's 6 months almost after release. Exactly how much patience is recommended here?
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#272 Feb 22 2011 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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I'd say axe the stamina bar. It does nothing for overall strategy and only serves to place a second global cooldown timer on everything in the game...


Or, instead of axing everything from the game one by one, make it so the stamina bar only applies to attacks that have no cooldown. You bring up a good point, but the solution is easy and does not require axing anything.

Quote:
Patience. It's 6 months almost after release. Exactly how much patience is recommended here?


Most of you were excited about starting the development from the scratch, so yes, if you were one of those people you should have more patience.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 10:38pm by Hyanmen
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#273 Feb 22 2011 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:


I honestly believe this as well. Obviously the UI problems (actions not firing when you press the button, general lag, bugginess etc) need to be fixed - but at its core the battle mechanics are fun - I really like skills like haymaker and feint and phalanx - and I like making different builds (spike damage build, evasion tank build, positional damage build etc)

I see people like **** Butte up there talking smack about the system and honestly, I can't believe they have even tried to make an effort to play well. Yeah, you can spam 1 against loleasy prey and rank up (albeit slowly and inefficiently) if you want to - but the game isn't making you do that.

If you have trouble using skills like haymaker etc at the current pace of battle either you are lagging out and may need to tone down your settings/ boost the performance of your computer - or you are just not very good at the game.

The only argument I've seen in favour of auto-attack that isn't just fairy dust is the argument that "it will make chatting during battle easier" and I just think that is a p1ss poor reason to waste time ripping apart the whole system.


The combat system in FFXIV isn't anymore or less complicated than a lot of the other MMO's out there, WoW,DDO, and Rift have action bars, you put an ability in a slot, and click it. Basically the same in FFXIV. The difference is that it seems slow, to me anyway, since in FFXIV it's all done from such a static position.

Lets say I'm playing a game as an archer type class, I am on a ledge, or a cliff. There are mobs below me I want to kill. I can run and jump off the cliff, aim and shoot the mobs below me as I fall. Hit an ability just before I land to avoid fall damage, and hit the ground running and engage the rest of them. Just a simple scenario, but it would be completely impossible in FFXIV. Where, I would have to run around to the bottom of the cliff, to get to these mobs, then just run up to them and from a static position start working my action bars.

They could make the combat system a lot more complicated than it is now, make it take 56 different abilities per fight, and it would still seem boring to me, because it is so immobile.

As for the auto attack, Kierk basically made the point. The auto attack doesn't even have to mean anything, I think in Rift my auto attack might proc once or twice a fight, for a leveling mob, but without it, just feels like something is missing. It doesn't even have to do damage, I think if it was just a purely aesthetic animation it would make a huge psychological difference.

I really think, that if they left the battle system exactly how it is, with the exception of a simple auto attack, and a jump ability, the combat would open up and feel like a fight, rather than a glorified game of rock paper scissors.


Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 2:47pm by KristoFurwalken
#274 Feb 22 2011 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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The only time auto-attack has server me well:

Maybe not dying when I d/c mid-combat ^.^

As for Stamina:

The other negative impact on DoM jobs is the Firm Conviction trait. If I spend 2.5s "readying" a spell and 2.5s casting a spell I have lost 50% uptime of my trait. (not to mention the negative synergy between Fastcast and FC)

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 4:37pm by SpelunkerOne
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#275 Feb 22 2011 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
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KristoFurwalken wrote:
The auto attack doesn't even have to mean anything, I think in Rift my auto attack might proc once or twice a fight, for a leveling mob, but without it, just feels like something is missing. It doesn't even have to do damage, I think if it was just a purely aesthetic animation it would make a huge psychological difference.


Like, say, going into Active Mode?

Let's just say I'm doubting your conviction on this point.
#276 Feb 22 2011 at 4:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
What I see is that SE needs to hold on to the bird they have, build a nice home for it, then go hunting for birds in the bush. Because 1 bird is still better than no birds, and the money spent on development is spent, so while they may not make it back with the existing playerbase, they could at least make something (my understanding is it wouldn't take many subs to pay the basic bills of running the thing) while maintaining a population in their game, cause I don't know many people that want to join a game once the population is completely gone.


Meanwhile, their shareholders and just supposed to shrug and go "...'k"? I don't think that's how corporations work, but maybe I'm wrong. I know I'd be ****** if my investment was squandered on some art house piece of **** when I was expecting a blockbuster. Kinda like that guy who sold all his SE stock (I think he was mentioned earlier in the thread).
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#277 Feb 22 2011 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
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I know I'd be ****** if my investment was squandered on some art house piece of sh*t when I was expecting a blockbuster.


Well those are the breaks, aren't they?

They should have demanded more BEFORE the game launched.
They should have demanded the game be pushed back a year.
They should have made **** sure the game was going to succeed.

Honestly everything about the XIV business model looked set up to fail.
Anyone currently playing MMOs the past decade should have seen this.
Everyone playing the Beta certainly did, but all these execs didn't seem to care.

So instead upper management comes down saying "Make the game better" so they destroy the one thing that actually is kinda refreshing about the game (originality), chop up all its systems, slap in XI and WoW and other successful systems on the fly and make a real giant **** of a game - rather than taking a giant **** of a launch and making the game it was meant to be in the first place.

Yeah, they have to answer to their shareholders more than they have to answer to their faithful players, but someone (aside from Takana, who btw still works at SE and on the XIV project, in fact) should really have taken responsibility for this crap a year ago.

We all want to feel like our complaints are heard - I get that, but slapping together half-assed systems into or over other half-assed systems isn't really guaranteed to change anything. XI was kinda rocky once WoW came out, but Tanaka stuck to his (stubborn, idiotic) guns and XI has made a long haul. We need developers to have a vision, listen to feedback and then combine the two to make a game that is a combination of what they intended it to be plus working on aspects players really enjoy.

Now if people would stop pretending they really enjoy auto-attack or auction houses and actually admit they enjoy "streamlined processes" and "convenient interface" as well as good user-response time maybe the devs would be using their time to fix systems already in place rather than trying to hatch out new systems from scratch on the fly - which will lead to more half-assed systems.

Bear in mind - even Olo is speculating. Yoshida (who hasn't done ANYTHING besides write jovial letters) may actually pull all this off. He may come up with something that uses Stamina/Auto-Attack add strategy, be more fun, do sexual favors and everyone goes home happy, but from a speculative point of view the chances of this seem slim, especially when a system that is actually working could use an upgrade and they're talking about re-writing the entire mechanics based on whimsical poll results and shareholder pressure to conform.

Yes, the game needs change - but abandoning vision for the sake of conformity is going to drive away everyone still interested in the game. It's certainly not going to lure anyone back. People will log on and tool around for 2 weeks thinking "Wow this game is system is exactly what I wanted! Just like all the other games I play. Thank goodness." Then they'll go play the next game to come out, Star Wars, Rift - what have you - and FFXIV will just be another MMO to go under in the shadow of WoW.

Do you think this fear is unjustified or misplaced?
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#278 Feb 22 2011 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
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Kirutaru wrote:
Do you think this fear is unjustified or misplaced?


Yes and yes.

A working battle system and auto attack are not going to turn the game into a WoW clone.
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#279 Feb 22 2011 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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TheRealDestian wrote:
Kirutaru wrote:
Do you think this fear is unjustified or misplaced?


Yes and yes.

A working battle system and auto attack are not going to turn the game into a WoW clone.
What about a combat system worse than what we currently have?
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#280 Feb 22 2011 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
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Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
What about a combat system worse than what we currently have?


It's so bad already, we haven't much to lose by rolling the dice.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 6:09pm by TheRealDestian
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#281 Feb 22 2011 at 5:10 PM Rating: Good
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What about a combat system worse than what we currently have?


How so? Auto-attack doesn't make a system terrible all the sudden.
#282 Feb 22 2011 at 5:10 PM Rating: Good
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TheRealDestian wrote:
Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
What about a combat system worse than what we currently have?


It's so bad already, we haven't much to lose by rolling the dice.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 6:09pm by TheRealDestian
That's your opinion. Mine, is that we stand to lose much more than what we could possibly gain from reassembling the combat system.

We'll have to leave it at that. I see no way in which we can change each other's mind on this.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 4:11pm by Kirby
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#283 Feb 22 2011 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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Quanta wrote:
Meanwhile, their shareholders and just supposed to shrug and go "...'k"? I don't think that's how corporations work, but maybe I'm wrong. I know I'd be ****** if my investment was squandered on some art house piece of sh*t when I was expecting a blockbuster. Kinda like that guy who sold all his SE stock (I think he was mentioned earlier in the thread).


Pandering to quarterly/yearly financial statement results demanded by shareholders was possibly a large part of the decision to launch early and recognize revenue on all the copies sold to stores....and lead directly to the status of the game today.

Of course, the alternative could be worse and we might not be getting the opportunity to provide feedback ala alpha/beta.
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#284 Feb 22 2011 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
What about a combat system worse than what we currently have?


It's so bad already, we haven't much to lose by rolling the dice.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 6:09pm by TheRealDestian
That's your opinion. Mine, is that we stand to lose much more than what we could possibly gain from reassembling the combat system.

We'll have to leave it at that. I see no way in which we can change each other's mind on this.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 4:11pm by Kirby
\

...okay?

In the end, it's out of our hands, anyway.

I think Yoshi-P knows what he's doing.
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#285 Feb 22 2011 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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MippsCat wrote:
Quote:
What about a combat system worse than what we currently have?


How so? Auto-attack doesn't make a system terrible all the sudden.
On the other side of the coin: Auto-attack doesn't inherently make the system awesome.

Your optimism is just a mirror of my pessimism about the upcoming changes to the combat system. We don't know if the game will be any better for it.

Destian sees an apparently 100% chance for improvement, I see an equal chance of failure and success.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 4:21pm by Kirby
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#286 Feb 22 2011 at 5:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Did you even read my post?

I never said auto-attack would make a WoW clone.

I get you think rolling the dice is better than just fixing what we have.
You made that clear.

It still doesn't dispute our fears that the game will suffer by slapping together new systems to replace old ones when the old ones aren't beyond salvaging.

^ Dispute that part please.
Not some part you made up based loosely on words I typed out of order.
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#287 Feb 22 2011 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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On the other side of the coin: Auto-attack doesn't inherently make the system awesome.


It's pretty awesome for me, my friends said they would give it a second shot if auto-attack was introduced. Despite seeming like a really lame reason to leave by the time we get auto-attack we will likely get a nice insert of content. It really is a win-win.

There needs to be some change. I don't understand how anyone could be against that after seeing so many people leave before the first update.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 6:33pm by MippsCat
#288 Feb 22 2011 at 5:50 PM Rating: Good
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Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Destian sees an apparently 100% chance for improvement, I see an equal chance of failure and success.


The game is on CPR right now.

Like I said earlier, Yoshi-P could blow everything to **** and it wouldn't change the game's fate one iota.
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#289 Feb 22 2011 at 5:52 PM Rating: Decent
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291 posts
No one is against change.

We all support it.
Every post in this thread that I took the time to read wants change.

Rehashing old ideas instead of fixing new ones is not the change some of us want.
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Battle Mage Kiru
#290 Feb 22 2011 at 6:01 PM Rating: Decent
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435 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
It still doesn't dispute our fears that the game will suffer by slapping together new systems to replace old ones when the old ones aren't beyond salvaging.


No, I prefer to let people who WANT to run around like the sky is falling go about their business as usual.
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#291 Feb 22 2011 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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291 posts
You're just being antagonizing for the sake of it.

You want to reply to my posts, then read them and reply to them.

You want major overhauls to the game. Good for you.
I want the game to be fixed just as much as you.

Everything you've cited as broken though is simply UI and latency issues.

You also list some things that aren't even broken like BRs which are working great and easier to use than skill chains - yet somehow listed on your bandwagon of complaints as horribly wrong. Really all BRs need is some real flashy animations to give people a sense of accomplishment (lol) and then they'd be even more impressive than skill chains.

Why are you still arguing again?

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 7:54pm by Kirutaru
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Battle Mage Kiru
#292 Feb 22 2011 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
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11,576 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
Did you even read my post?

I never said auto-attack would make a WoW clone.

I get you think rolling the dice is better than just fixing what we have.
You made that clear.

It still doesn't dispute our fears that the game will suffer by slapping together new systems to replace old ones when the old ones aren't beyond salvaging.

^ Dispute that part please.
Not some part you made up based loosely on words I typed out of order.


There's nothing about FFXIV that will draw the crowds SE needs. You know what SE needs? To be able to do a soft re-launch of the game as soon as possible and be able to fill up their "Please come back!" e-mails to people with a members account with all kinds of features listed with the prefix "All new".

All new combat system, all new quest system, retuned xp/sp, new encounters, new endgame activities, new missions, continuation of the story! Huzzah! Isn't it exciting!?!

Because if all they do is say, "Added auto-attack. Put in some quests. Retuned SP. Oh, and the UI isn't embarrassing trash anymore. Ya. That's about it."...they might as well pack it in now.

XIV's combat system is niche. And there's nothing wrong with niche if you can make it work. SE hasn't been able to make it work and the time to try and innovate is over. It was over last September. XI style combat isn't going to bring people back. Seriously. Battle regimens? Not a compelling mechanic. "We've added auto attack and so now players will have more time to coordinate battle regimens on the fly with the rest of their party members." Really? Does anyone here honestly think that's going to sell anything? Boring-*** generic combat mechanics to facilitate hum-drum group-centric combat mechanics? Really? C'mon.
#293 Feb 22 2011 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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Kirutaru wrote:

You also list some things that aren't even broken like BRs which are working great and easier to use than skill chains - yet somehow listed on your bandwagon of complaints as horribly wrong. Really all BRs need is some real flashy animations to give people a sense of accomplishment (lol) and then they'd be even more impressive than skill chains.


BR's, imo, are hands down the worst thing that I have ever seen. ever. This is one of the things that I hope they change back to the speed of skill chains. It's nothing more than a skill chain on hold.
#294 Feb 22 2011 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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435 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
Why are you still arguing again?


Excellent point, the only good or even valid one you've made, in fact. Why DO I bother to convince a pile of whiners who want nothing less than to have to deal with the reality that the game is going to be changed to save it from a miserable death?

Fact is this: Yoshi-P is changing this game for the better. This is little more than a thread full of relentless crying over how afraid a tiny portion of FFXIV players are of him changing it in a way they don't like it, despite the fact that him doing this is the ONLY chance of saving the game from dying.

Thankfully, he's not reading this forum, and even if he was, he's not dumb enough to let a tiny whining minority convince him to stop saving the game from its otherwise imminent demise.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 8:23pm by TheRealDestian
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#295 Feb 22 2011 at 7:28 PM Rating: Decent
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291 posts
Quote:
There's nothing about FFXIV that will draw the crowds SE needs. You know what SE needs? To be able to do a soft re-launch of the game as soon as possible and be able to fill up their "Please come back!" e-mails to people with a members account with all kinds of features listed with the prefix "All new".


Right. I agree. But you and I both suspect (as you said already) chopping up what the game has and filling it with other half-assed systems from previous games isn't going to help or work to their advantage if that's what they are indeed doing.

Quote:
All new combat system, all new quest system, retuned xp/sp, new encounters, new endgame activities, new missions, continuation of the story! Huzzah! Isn't it exciting!?!

Because if all they do is say, "Added auto-attack. Put in some quests. Retuned SP. Oh, and the UI isn't embarrassing trash anymore. Ya. That's about it."...they might as well pack it in now.


I guess what I haven't said so far is that I'd prefer they fix the game they almost made, but if they want to overhaul it completely - just take the **** game down for a year, make it what it should have been and relaunch it later with all new and improved features! You know, ones that actually worked and aren't half-assed and feel like a finished product with lots of content to explore.

Considering a lot of people (claim to be) are lingering on the outskirts waiting for this to happen gradually over time anyway they have just as good (if not better) chance of re-hooking people this way than allowing people enjoying the game (as small a community or niche a group as they may be) watch it be destroyed before their eyes and filled up (slowly) with older, over-used systems from XI or where ever.

Quote:
XIV's combat system is niche. And there's nothing wrong with niche if you can make it work. SE hasn't been able to make it work and the time to try and innovate is over. It was over last September. XI style combat isn't going to bring people back. Seriously. Battle regimens? Not a compelling mechanic. "We've added auto attack and so now players will have more time to coordinate battle regimens on the fly with the rest of their party members." Really? Does anyone here honestly think that's going to sell anything? Boring-*** generic combat mechanics to facilitate hum-drum group-centric combat mechanics? Really? C'mon.


Even though you have written in a somewhat argumentative tone, you and I almost completely agree. I think I'd say "the time to make it a working niche" is now or soon closing. To say its completely over and then say all the planned fixes aren't going to make a difference is contradictory. They could cut their losses and niche it up - and try to lure back niche players who are upset or discouraged. Would they take a huge loss? Yeah, of course! Instead it appears they're about to take a bigger risk (and potentially bigger loss) which is acceptable to some because "what do they have to lose?"

Well me and Olo, apparently. They have customers willing to pay. They may quickly squander those as well. That's really all the thread was saying to begin with - it wasn't a debate on the merits of WoW clones or auto-attack "strategies" (lol) - just a disheartened fan on the edge of letting go because the future is SO unbelievably uncertain it's hard to remain hopeful as things you like are in danger of being scrapped.

There shouldn't be vague references to ideas that may or may not happen. The time for uncertain future should be long gone. Yoshida told us not to give up and he would take care of us - but can we at least agree that aside from writing happy-go-lucky letters (which are cute and charming) he hasn't given us ANYTHING besides vague list of things he may or may not do.

Joy, I toggle off helmet animations, SP got doubled and 15 man parties nerfed. It's not a good demonstration of his master plan. Where this game is going and how soon its going to get there should be priority one at Square Enix and if they showed it to us, it would be even better in reassuring us that there is some fng direction - and not just whims of a WoW-playing majority. (Not that I'm knocking WoW, or the majority - just the whimsical part).
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Battle Mage Kiru
#296 Feb 22 2011 at 7:32 PM Rating: Decent
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291 posts
Quote:
BR's, imo, are hands down the worst thing that I have ever seen. ever. This is one of the things that I hope they change back to the speed of skill chains. It's nothing more than a skill chain on hold.


BRs are already faster than Skillchains and have a more varied effect depending on the combination and do more effective overall than all but "Light/Darkness" + Magic Burst.

A good BR takes about 5 seconds. 10 if someone is slacking.

Anything greater than that is user error
(or UI/latancy error, sadly can't discount that yet).

You like skillchains more than BRs; that's fine.

BRs are a step forward in the evolution of the skill-chain, though, and more suitable to fast past and large group battles.
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Battle Mage Kiru
#297 Feb 22 2011 at 7:36 PM Rating: Good
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435 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
Well me and Olo, apparently. They have customers willing to pay. They may quickly squander those as well. That's really all the thread was saying to begin with - it wasn't a debate on the merits of WoW clones or auto-attack "strategies" (lol) - just a disheartened fan on the edge of letting go because the future is SO unbelievably uncertain it's hard to remain hopeful as things you like are in danger of being scrapped.


For every curmudgeon who doesn't want to see the game change, there would be 10 paying subscribers SE will likely get by changing it.

And stop being so melodramatic. Listen to yourself: "The future is uncertain!"? Right now, without making massive overhauls to this game, like Aurellius said, this game is DEAD, and that IS certain.

Aurelius wrote:
All new combat system, all new quest system, retuned xp/sp, new encounters, new endgame activities, new missions, continuation of the story! Huzzah! Isn't it exciting!?!


You are 110% right, and I'm not sure why I didn't think of it sooner.

Of COURSE they're going to be completely redoing nearly every system in the game! They saw how many people quit because of how little they liked the current systems. Would they honestly think, even for a moment, that simply fixing those systems is going to turn the game around?

**** no! We're going to be seeing a NGE, for sure.
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#298 Feb 22 2011 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
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291 posts
Quote:
Excellent point, the only good or even valid one you've made, in fact. Why DO I bother to convince people who actually enjoy playing this game who would be willing to pay for it and are patient to see it develop into a unique and original (though possibly niche) title that stands on its own from being gutted and turned into every other MMO that is out there on the market in a potentially vain hope to draw new customers?

Fact is this: Yoshi-P is changing this game for the better, I hope. This is little more than a thread full of legitimate concerns that frighten an arguably tiny portion of FFXIV players. They are of him changing it in a way they don't like it, despite the fact that him doing this is in my educated opinion as a game developer or marketting consultant (cause how else could I be so sure) the ONLY chance of saving the game from dying.

Thankfully, he's not reading this forum; he's busy setting up his own official forum so he can listen to criticism there instead. Even if he was, he's not dumb enough to let a tiny whining minority convince him to stop saving the game from its otherwise imminent demise but he is dumb enough to let people who aren't playing the game and don't have jobs over the Rank of 20 decide how the game should be designed hoping they actually stick around once they get what they want rather than move on to the next great thing they can visit and criticize.


There we go. I fixed this to be slightly more accurate, mixed with my point of view.

Hopefully you can curb your insults and tone, because frankly I have just as much right to want what I want from this game as any one else - and I have just as much right to post my concerns and fears as anyone else without the need to be judged or lectured or misinterpreted.
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Battle Mage Kiru
#299 Feb 22 2011 at 7:41 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It still doesn't dispute our fears that the game will suffer by slapping together new systems to replace old ones when the old ones aren't beyond salvaging.


I'm confused. What new systems? The only thing I saw from the notes was just auto attack as a major change to the battle system, some abilities may be dropped and the loss of physical levels(lol...). For the most part I don't think you have anything to fear as nothing critical is being changed from the system now. Doesn't seem like the game will suffer at the addition or loss of any of those things.
#300 Feb 22 2011 at 7:50 PM Rating: Decent
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291 posts
Quote:
For every curmudgeon who doesn't want to see the game change, there would be 10 paying subscribers SE will likely get by changing it.


Let's pretend you didn't just pull that out of your *** and say that's true. So they gain 9 customers. How many of those 9 will actually play the game for 5 years? How many will turn their accounts off after 3-6 months? How many will come back for new content once in a while but not be paying a full year's subscription?

Let me make up some random number, too: Probably 8 of those 9 total gained customers.

Quote:
And stop being so melodramatic. Listen to yourself: "The future is uncertain!"? Right now, without making massive overhauls to this game, like Aurellius said, this game is DEAD, and that IS certain.


The future IS uncertain. If not changing the game is certain death (melodramatic terminology) than changing the game is uncertainly something else. The opposite of certain is uncertain.

Quote:
Of COURSE they're going to be completely redoing nearly every system in the game! They saw how many people quit because of how little they liked the current systems. Would they honestly think, even for a moment, that simply fixing those systems is going to turn the game around?


Well maybe if the game they launched was actually a finished product, people could have judged those systems on their own merits. Retainers were released and were a ******* joke so everyone cried Auction House! Retainers now work functionally and probably closer to intended and now some people still cry Auction House but most people (still playing) don't really care because it suits their needs - an Auction House just might suit their needs faster (or not crash daily). The point is the system might have worked or even impressed if it was actually finished. Instead it was a laughable piece of trash and everyone was rightly outraged.

Saying people were outraged so rebuild a whole new game is at least equal to saying people were outraged so make this game the way you intended it to be and stop insulting us.

You're just guessing (again) at why people quit. Especially since many people I know who quit said they'd come back if things were fixed (not completely changed into new things).

Quote:
**** no! We're going to be seeing a NGE, for sure.


Yeah! Cause NGE really resparked new-found love an interest in Star Wars Galaxies!
WoW practically lost all their customers after NGE hit the streets!

Oh wait, no, it killed a game that was going perfectly fine on its own because someone wanted to attract more people and make more money and it blew up in their friggin face. Hmmm.

Who's side are you arguing again? I just got confused.
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Battle Mage Kiru
#301 Feb 22 2011 at 7:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kirutaru wrote:

A good BR takes about 5 seconds. 10 if someone is slacking.


Skillchains take approximately 2-3 seconds due to confirmation lag. They also don't hold anyone up in the process by preventing all skills to be unavailable til confirmation. BR's are a step back by taking longer in this case. The aftermaths of BR's however are unique. BR's just don't seem to flow with the fight as much as hold it up. Think that is what irritates me the most.
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