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Feeling less confident about the future of XIVFollow

#302 Feb 22 2011 at 8:03 PM Rating: Decent
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How many people are involved in a skillchain of 2 seconds?

Considering a BLM spell takes longer than 2 seconds to cast, I'd say 2 people.

BRs can have up to 8 people in 5 seconds.
Skillchain will never involve 8 people no matter how you slice it.
Even with 4 Samurai, you'll eventually hit Light and have to start a new Skillchain.

You can enjoy skillchains all you want, but I'm of the opinion that if BRs had bright flashy explosions of awesome people would think they were cooler. They don't. They give you enhanced battle effects and they happen quickly and easily with no timing necessary. All you have to do is be paying attention (like a skillchain) and it happens in quite fast.

I'm not sure why you are arguing with me.
It could just be personal preference.

Can't you let it go or do you need to PROVE skillchain are a superior animal?

BRs aren't broken. They simply don't look impressive.
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#303 Feb 22 2011 at 8:22 PM Rating: Good
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Kirutaru wrote:
How many people are involved in a skillchain of 2 seconds?

Considering a BLM spell takes longer than 2 seconds to cast, I'd say 2 people.

BRs can have up to 8 people in 5 seconds.
Skillchain will never involve 8 people no matter how you slice it.
Even with 4 Samurai, you'll eventually hit Light and have to start a new Skillchain.

You can enjoy skillchains all you want, but I'm of the opinion that if BRs had bright flashy explosions of awesome people would think they were cooler. They don't. They give you enhanced battle effects and they happen quickly and easily with no timing necessary. All you have to do is be paying attention (like a skillchain) and it happens in quite fast.

I'm not sure why you are arguing with me.
It could just be personal preference.

Can't you let it go or do you need to PROVE skillchain are a superior animal?

BRs aren't broken. They simply don't look impressive.


I respectfully disagree Kirutaru.

What I liked about skillchains and magic bursts was the timing involved. The fact that I was one of the early few that memorized most of the chart for every class I played so I knew when to do what WS or MB. I liked being able to skillchain off of nearly any WS I saw when fighting NMs/Gods or even in the TP Burn parties. I liked that I didn't have to rely on any other party members as long as there was a WS fired at one point.

My favorite job was SAM :3

Flashy effects would indeed be nice, but BRs just don't feel right. Firing the entire series of attacks with the push of a button after they have all been set feels just lame to me. It's like "auto attack" for a skillchain.

Just my opinion.

P.S. In FFXI I could keep lv 1 skillchains going indefinitely with a party of SAMs that knew what they were doing... it was FUN AS **** too.

I guess I should clarify that I mean that SC's were superior in "fun" :P

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 6:26pm by azureseed
#304 Feb 22 2011 at 8:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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mnikad12 wrote:
To say bringing any functional aspect from WoW, or any other MMO for that matter, that adds content is ignorance. I'm tired of people complaining about the possibility of features being added to FFXIV that already exist in other MMOs. News flash, in order to have an engaging and functional game some things are necessary. SE doesn't need to reinvent the wheel to make a fun, engaging MMO, but they can certainly try to improve on certain existing aspects.
This a hundred times over.

The game is in a state where the devs can't afford to be shy about what works elsewhere. Nor can they afford to completely go out of their way to make the game "different and unique". There's aspects that are good ideas that can and do work across platforms and games, regardless of design philosophy and general intent of the game in question.

At the same time, yes these very ideas some are hating or scared of can be improved and given their own FF twist to make it fit into the game better. Not everything has to have a unique system to be functional. There are plenty of things that identify this as an FF game. That is, unless you consider the reused races, the jobs and Uematsu Nobuo's involvement to be merely trivial and not FF-ish.
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What I liked about skillchains and magic bursts was the timing involved. The fact that I was one of the early few that memorized most of the chart for every class I played so I knew when to do what WS or MB. I liked being able to skillchain off of nearly any WS I saw when fighting NMs/Gods or even in the TP Burn parties. I liked that I didn't have to rely on any other party members as long as there was a WS fired at one point.
Seeing that anything more complicated than a two-step skillchain more often than not would get borked by latency, I heavily disagree here. Doubly so for magic bursts, as past a certain level the BLM had to start casting before the skillchain even began to be able to get the spell off in time, not to mention it created a very limited use for spells in anything that was not a manaburn party.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 9:43pm by Ruisu
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#305 Feb 22 2011 at 8:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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My thoughts on the topic and more or less on the current situation of the game.

I really don't think these changes are that hard to understand, matter of fact if you are the type of player that have been enjoying the game since day one, or even since open/close beta, you belong to a certain category of players.

Now... I won't call you names or try to denigrate that position to justify the fact that I simply don't enjoy the game in its current state, but I think you an I agree that your category is unfortunately a minority.

Since games are hardy developed for a minority, specially MMORPG (massive being the key word here) which are basically developed for masses, it's only natural that the ideal shape of the game, at least from the company's point of view, may not please the minority, I bet they keep an eye on it but it's not the top priority.

The game will move, or try to move towards that idea shape that until it reaches that or unfortunately get closed.

All this changes is closely related to FFXIV possible premature service stoppage, while I agree that the game isn't death, I strongly believe that SE, at least has drawn a red line already that if crossed will force them to stop the service.

In conclusion minority always have the worse part, because either they game will change to something they may not enjoy anymore or the service will be stopped.

Ken

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 4:33am by kenage
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#306 Feb 22 2011 at 8:44 PM Rating: Good
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What I liked about skillchains and magic bursts was the timing involved. The fact that I was one of the early few that memorized most of the chart for every class I played so I knew when to do what WS or MB. I liked being able to skillchain off of nearly any WS I saw when fighting NMs/Gods or even in the TP Burn parties. I liked that I didn't have to rely on any other party members as long as there was a WS fired at one point.


This is a different statement than "skillchains are better because they are faster."

We don't disagree at all. You just enjoy an aspect of Skillchains that doesn't exist in BRs and thus for you they are preferred (if not superior) but don't be among the people who tell me what BRs are not as fast or don't work as well (incorrectly) and use that as evidence to support an opinion.

-----

I also got to point out here (in this thread) that overall people are arguing against a position that cannot be argued.

Olo (and others) are losing hope that the promised updates will make the game better.

Nothing anyone says can change this. It's not "I think Skillchains are better." It's not an opinion that can be based on accurate or inaccurate information, nor is it even a matter of personal preference. It's a feeling and a concern. It can't be changed simply by not agreeing or not wanting us to feel it.

You can try to convince us that our feelings aren't justified, but it's going to be an uphill battle for many reasons - foremost because we already feel that way and 2nd because the game and its developers aren't doing anything to assuage our fears.

I still feel many of you are arguing for the sake of arguing because that's what people do on forums. I'm playing into it by arguing back and picking apart posts to make them seem trite, trivial or faulty.

The bottom line is I'm concerned Yoshida may drive away people who enjoy the game by turning it into some new game in a hope to win other subscribers. This may be great for his career or shareholders, but it's not great for me or anyone else here who feels this way so try some compassion instead of insults.

We can all hope blindly that Yoshida makes changes that actually satisfy everyone, or we can try to criticize and commiserate about things that seem destined to make us (personally) unhappy and hope there can be some middle ground of gaining new subscriptions without alienating the (current) faithful.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 9:45pm by Kirutaru
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#307 Feb 22 2011 at 9:00 PM Rating: Good
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Nor can they afford to completely go out of their way to make the game "different and unique".


I don't really understand where you & Aurelius among others come up with this kind of stuff.

I mean as a general statement, I guess it's okay.

We all agree (I hope) SE needs to pull a rabbit out of a hat to make FFXIV be the money making machine SE wants it to be, make it a game that you (two named individuals) would consider sticking around to play, and keep their profit margin high enough to create new content and develop new expansions worth spending time and money on.

I don't see where or even how you draw the line that they "can't afford to be different."

They can't afford to keep a game running that has very low subscriptions. (True)
They can't afford to keep the game free to play. (True)
They can't afford to make new content for a game they are already losing money on. (True)

They can't afford to be different or unique?
How is this something you have intimate knowledge of?

How do you know where they can and can't draw the line at sticking their necks out?

It's as if you're saying "different and unique" can't be profitable and the proof is this game that was released a year early with content that wasn't well implemented or functioning properly. How can you use that as an example? How do you know they can't simply make the game work properly and have all the content they intended and everyone will love it?

You can't, I don't think. Neither can I. I'm not saying they should do that (though I'd prefer it) but I don't get you guys when you make grand sweeping generalizations like "there's no time to be niche" and "they can't afford different and unique."

What they can't afford to do is fail. Considering how most people (including yourselves, if I recall) thought this game had a lot of potential to be great, but then died with a terrible launch and complete lack of content - it almost says the opposite. That they could afford to be unique & different if they had launched the game with closer to max potential, rather than a shell of what it could be.

So in an argument over making the game what it could have been or just saying "F it all, let's start over" you're now singing the "Let's start over with systems we know work well enough" < because they can afford that, but they can't afford to be different.

I don't understand.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 10:08pm by Kirutaru
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#308 Feb 22 2011 at 9:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Kirutaru wrote:
I don't really understand where you & Aurelius among others come up with this kind of stuff.

I mean as a general statement, I guess it's okay.

We all agree (I hope) SE needs to pull a rabbit out of a hat to make FFXIV be the money making machine SE wants it to be, make it a game that you (two named individuals) would consider sticking around to play, and keep their profit margin high enough to create new content and develop new expansions worth spending time and money on.

I don't see where or even how you draw the line that they "can't afford to be different."
You're misunderstanding the intent of us saying that. 1:1 copies are not what we're asking for. What we (or should I say, I) ask for is that they curb that necessity to include asinine features or changes that make little to no sense for the sake of being different. If you want an example of what I mean, you need not look further than FFXI and the augment system when first implemented. That was an imitation of enchants and gemming from WoW, but with a terribly half-assed implementation and overt complication for the sake of being different. It made things that were already stupidly situation even MORE stupidly situational.

Another way to put it is that they shouldn't be going out of their way to reinvent the wheel. They need to find something that works and will attract players and tweak it in a way that it both helps the game establish its place as a Final Fantasy game while at the same time bringing fun to the game. This doesn't prohibit them from trying to innovate, but it does keep that innovation in a place where it can work for the player instead of being something random tossed into the game world for the sake of adding something. That's the difference between useless features and creative additions to the game that benefit the players.

On a personal note, I also say this because I absolutely hate to see people use the unique snowflake argument to attempt to justify anything. That includes design choices that make no sense, impractical mechanics and class overpoweredness/gimping that is left intact under the guise of class flavor.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 10:51pm by Ruisu
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#309 Feb 22 2011 at 9:53 PM Rating: Decent
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#310 Feb 22 2011 at 10:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You're misunderstanding the intent of us saying that. 1:1 copies are not what we're asking for. What we (or should I say, I) ask for is that they curb that necessity to include asinine features or changes that make little to no sense for the sake of being different. If you want an example of what I mean, you need not look further than FFXI and the augment system when first implemented. That was an imitation of enchants and gemming from WoW, but with a terribly half-assed implementation and overt complication for the sake of being different. It made things that were already stupidly situation even MORE stupidly situational.


Well, my interpretation of the Augment system was that it was a stupid, new way to sink your time. If you could upgrade your gear or weapons with augments in a multiple choice fashion (which I realize you can, now, but realize you couldn't then) it might have been fine - to build situational gear. Instead, it was a complex system that rewarded you with gear you could no longer trade/sell with updates you may or may not even want. It was basically like spending time to throw away gil. It was completely ridiculous.

I don't see it as different for the sake of different at all. I saw it as an attempt to make a system that people waste their time and gil on. Buying and rebuying armor, and questing and requesting to get that STR+1 on their gloves or some crap.

Maybe it was different to be different, but that's not how I see it.

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Another way to put it is that they shouldn't be going out of their way to reinvent the wheel. They need to find something that works and will attract players and tweak it in a way that it both helps the game establish its place as a Final Fantasy game while at the same time bringing fun to the game. This doesn't prohibit them from trying to innovate, but it does keep that innovation in a place where it can work for the player instead of being something random tossed into the game world for the sake of adding something. That's the difference between useless features and creative additions to the game that benefit the players.


I don't really like when people say re-invent the wheel. A wheel is a simple machine. No one's reinventing levers either, or pulleys. You're talking about complex systems. Plus, wheels started out made of stone or wood and now we have car tires and inline skates. They concept of a wheel hasn't changed, sure, but they are being re-imagined and upgraded as new technology comes along. It's just a meaningless statement in any context.

Retainers work, but people still want an Auction House. Retainers didn't work originally so it was fair game, then, but now people want Auction Houses for the sake of conformity. Retainers could (keyword is "could") ultimately evolve to be better than an Auction House, but many people are still stubbornly demanding their dismissal even though gear is easy to find. The only convenience missing is that you go to the gear rather than the gear comes to you. What is that? Just a minute shaved off the actual time and what do you gain? Well, I don't know yet. Hopefully a system that can't be controlled by RMT, but the closer it gets to functioning as an Auction House, the less this will be true. Time would tell if we let the system grow and evolve rather than demand new systems.

Is it ok to be different for the sake of different when you lose nothing? Could we keep retainers for the sake of retainers if the service was on par with Auction House (both stability and efficiency)? I dare to say we could, though some will probably still demand a window that mails them gear, or craps it out if they pay the magic amount.

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On a personal note, I also say this because I absolutely hate to see people use the unique snowflake argument to attempt to justify anything. That includes design choices that make no sense, impractical mechanics and class overpoweredness/gimping that is left intact under the guise of class flavor.


And what I'm saying is - if they had bothered to make the systems work (such as battle & retainers, which we can all agree didn't work and still are sub-par) to start out with, could they have afforded to be different? or would people still be crying they don't like things because they ARE different?

It's a moot point because the game started in complete disarray where absolutely nothing was convenient or streamlined. It's the exact opposite launch that a game daring to be different should have. I'm certainly condemning that aspect of the game.

However, I don't see (exactly) why people would rather they build new systems like battle and auction houses, when they could just make systems that exist work better. Of the two, I think upgrading the current systems would take less time and thus bring us more content faster - instead they are spending time and effort making systems people are crying for (that they potentially won't appreciate anyway) and content is being pushed farther and farther away.

Basically the real issue here is "would the game be good enough if everything was in ship-shape condition and there was plenty of quests and monsters and distractions in the content" or does the game actually need "to be a different game" as things like auto-attack aren't going to fit into the "current game system."
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#311 Feb 22 2011 at 10:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Kirutaru wrote:
There we go. I fixed to reflect the fact that I'm a selfish little fanboy who would rather see FFXIV die than let it change into something I dislike, because if I can't have it the way I want it, NO one can have it at all!


Fixed that for you.

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Hopefully you can curb your insults and tone, because frankly I have just as much right to want what I want from this game as any one else - and I have just as much right to post my concerns and fears as anyone else without the need to be judged or lectured or misinterpreted.


As long as you continue suggesting that FFXIV not be reinvented (which is the only thing that could possibly save it at this point), you are advocating KILLING FFXIV, so my tone will continue in this manner because I frankly don't want to see the game DIE.

Kirutaru wrote:
Let's pretend you didn't just pull that out of your *** and say that's true. So they gain 9 customers. How many of those 9 will actually play the game for 5 years? How many will turn their accounts off after 3-6 months? How many will come back for new content once in a while but not be paying a full year's subscription?


WIthout their subs, YOU won't be playing it for five years because it sure as **** ain't gonna SURVIVE five years.

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The future IS uncertain. If not changing the game is certain death (melodramatic terminology) than changing the game is uncertainly something else. The opposite of certain is uncertain.


No, NOT changing the game is certain death because the game is technically ALREADY DEAD! Can you please get that through your thick skull?

The game is on life support right now. It is FLATLINING and Yoshi-P is doing his best to try to revive it.

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Well maybe if the game they launched was actually a finished product, people could have judged those systems on their own merits.


I'm sure Wada made sure to get all of the information on what was planned by the previous director of the game before he uber-fired him (and by that I mean he'd be lucky to ever get work in a game development firm ever again after this) and put Yoshi-P in charge.

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You're just guessing (again) at why people quit. Especially since many people I know who quit said they'd come back if things were fixed (not completely changed into new things).


Let me put it this way: I want their names, addresses and phone numbers before I'll believe you.

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Yeah! Cause NGE really resparked new-found love an interest in Star Wars Galaxies!
WoW practically lost all their customers after NGE hit the streets!

Oh wait, no, it killed a game that was going perfectly fine on its own because someone wanted to attract more people and make more money and it blew up in their friggin face. Hmmm.


And unlike SWG, FFXIV was DoA, meaning that it's as good as dead anyway unless something is done to save it.

PLEASE get this through your head: the game is already as good as flushed down the toilet unless Yoshi-P can save it. Stop trying to encourage him to kill the game because you hate change.

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I just got confused.


Let me summarize it for you: you're trying to kill FFXIV and you need to stop.
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#312 Feb 22 2011 at 10:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheRealDestian wrote:
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The future IS uncertain. If not changing the game is certain death (melodramatic terminology) than changing the game is uncertainly something else. The opposite of certain is uncertain.


No, NOT changing the game is certain death because the game is technically ALREADY DEAD! Can you please get that through your thick skull?

The game is on life support right now. It is FLATLINING and Yoshi-P is doing his best to try to revive it.
Who is against change in this thread? It's been said many times before, but scrapping an existing system is not the only way to improve the game.

Give the development team some time to iron out issues. Then, you can go ahead and fly off the handle because your PC can't handle the game.

TheRealDestian wrote:
Let me summarize it for you: you're trying to kill FFXIV and you need to stop.
Do you honestly believe this?

Who would argue so vehemently for the game, if they didn't want it to improve, and continue to grow?
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#313 Feb 22 2011 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
Quote:
The future IS uncertain. If not changing the game is certain death (melodramatic terminology) than changing the game is uncertainly something else. The opposite of certain is uncertain.


No, NOT changing the game is certain death because the game is technically ALREADY DEAD! Can you please get that through your thick skull?

The game is on life support right now. It is FLATLINING and Yoshi-P is doing his best to try to revive it.
Who is against change in this thread? It's been said many times before, but scrapping an existing system is not the only way to improve the game.

Give the development team some time to iron out issues. Then, you can go ahead and fly off the handle because your PC can't handle the game.

TheRealDestian wrote:
Let me summarize it for you: you're trying to kill FFXIV and you need to stop.
Do you honestly believe this?

Who would argue so vehemently for the game, if they didn't want it to improve, and continue to grow?


Like Aurelius said:

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There's nothing about FFXIV that will draw the crowds SE needs. You know what SE needs? To be able to do a soft re-launch of the game as soon as possible and be able to fill up their "Please come back!" e-mails to people with a members account with all kinds of features listed with the prefix "All new".

All new combat system, all new quest system, retuned xp/sp, new encounters, new endgame activities, new missions, continuation of the story! Huzzah! Isn't it exciting!?!


I think he's absolutely right on the money.

The people who played this game and experienced the utter shoddiness of the systems aren't going to be brought back with "We fixed a few things!" nor are people who read reviews for the game and ran the other way.

A soft-relaunch is basically the ONLY thing that's going to save this game, and I mean it's going to need to be so different that reviewers will have cause to re-review it.

The game is currently the laughing-stock of the MMO industry. It either needs to reinvent itself or it will never be taken seriously to the point where it'll have enough subs to be sustainable.

And yes, any opposition to Yoshi-p making the changes he needs to make to save it from certain death is advocating the death of the game. I can't sugarcoat it.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 11:37pm by TheRealDestian
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#314 Feb 22 2011 at 10:39 PM Rating: Good
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TheRealDestian wrote:
And yes, any opposition to Yoshi-p making the changes he needs to make to save it from certain death is advocating the death of the game. I can't sugarcoat it.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 11:37pm by TheRealDestian
I agree with a lot of the changes he's making. Why can't we nitpick his plans? He's not infallible.
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#315 Feb 22 2011 at 10:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Kirutaru wrote:
Basically the real issue here is "would the game be good enough if everything was in ship-shape condition and there was plenty of quests and monsters and distractions in the content" or does the game actually need "to be a different game" as things like auto-attack aren't going to fit into the "current game system."


Given that they're having difficulty getting people to play the game FOR FREE, I'm going to have to go with option 2.
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#316 Feb 22 2011 at 10:48 PM Rating: Decent
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A guy named **** **** resorts to insulting people...

...and I make pointed and valid arguments...

and I'm the one being rated down. ^^

Gotta love this system. Hopefully the night crew comes through and stands up for me.

As it stands, though, I don't like the way you are twisting words and making things up and insulting people who are scared of losing something they enjoy doing.

That said, have a nice life, Richard Butte.
When you feel like adding something meaningful, I may feel like replying to you again.

Edit: Here's a thought for a meaningful post.

You come up with your sources on how the game is dead, or won't last 5 years unless they make a new battle system or whatever it is you're saying. Then I'll give you a list of names and (email) addresses of people - aka a petition. You first.

Someone else can prove to me it's too late to appeal to a niche market and recoup some loss. That it's better to build a new game system than fix a the current one.

I did a quick review of this thread and I can't really see how "forget the bird in the hand let's double our profit with the 2 in the bush!" is any realistic business strategy. That's what most of you are saying.


Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 11:57pm by Kirutaru
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#317 Feb 22 2011 at 10:53 PM Rating: Good
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Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Who is against change in this thread? It's been said many times before, but scrapping an existing system is not the only way to improve the game.

Give the development team some time to iron out issues. Then, you can go ahead and fly off the handle because your PC can't handle the game.


Alright, I'm going to be real for a minute now.

The development team does not have bottomless money coffers or unlimited amount of time. They're already bleeding money, subscribers, and working on borrowed time. They literally cannot afford to keep trying to fix a sh*tty, broken, aberration of a combat (and retainer, and leveling, and most everything) system. They have a better chance of making the game succeed by scrapping all the bad systems and replacing them with stuff that was inspired by systems that DO work.

The game has been in development for almost 6 years now, and it's still an unpolished ****. The majority of players/testers were criticising every aspect of it from the day the alpha launched, up until open beta ended, and those that stuck around after release still do today. It saw one of the worst and most shameful releases of any MMO ever, topped only by APB. Game retailers are asking for recalls on this game because they cannot sell it.

Virtually everyone from the developers, to reviewers, management, share holders, testers, players, former players, prospective players, and trolls figured out that everything in this game sucks and is not fixable; only replaceable. Why can't you?

Edit: i r gud at grammar

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 11:55pm by Wolfums
#318 Feb 22 2011 at 10:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
I agree with a lot of the changes he's making. Why can't we nitpick his plans? He's not infallible.


You can nitpick all you want. That doesn't bother me.

It's people being alarmists about his plans, saying that it's going to destroy the game and drive away the current inadequate subscriber base because they don't like the changes that I abhor.

The people saying this are being the worst kind of selfish fleas, placing their personal preferences over the very SURVIVAL of the game, and they claim to "love it" without even the slightest notion of the irony in that claim.

The facts are simple....

1. FFXIV IS currently dead in the water. We're playing it for free because SE KNOWS it's dead in the water.

2. Yoshi-P is looking to do some massive revamping of the game because he and Wada likewise KNOW that that's what it will take to get this game back on its feet. If they honestly felt they could simply "fix the existing systems", that's all that would be happening, but it isn't and for good reason.

3. Since a soft-relaunch is the ONLY thing that will save this game, opposing that is akin to wanting the game to die. It'd be like insisting your girlfriend doesn't get a leaking breast-implant removed (even though it's killing her) because you like her with larger *******. It's the worst kind of selfish flea behavior and people need to be broken of it, period.

Like I said, nothing wrong with nitpicking (I don't like the idea of auto-attack, personally), but people need to stop being whining children and look at the big picture here.
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#319 Feb 22 2011 at 11:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Kirutaru wrote:
A guy named **** **** resorts to insulting people...

...and I make pointed and valid arguments...

and I'm the one being rated down. ^^

Gotta love this system. Hopefully the night crew comes through and stands up for me.


Just FYI, I've never seen complaining about being rated down work well for anyone.

I was a sage after the first post I made on these forums, and I realized that I could either fall in with the herd and keep that status, or I could speak my mind unabated and people would rate me down for it.

Guess which one I chose.

Quote:
As it stands, though, I don't like the way you are twisting words and making things up and insulting people who are scared of losing something they enjoy doing.


I don't blame them for not wanting to lose it. I blame them for being so short-sighted that they don't realize they'd lose it either way.

Either Yoshi-P changes the game and they lose SOME of the game, or he doesn't, Wada pulls the plug because he refuses to invest any more money into it and they lose THE ENTIRE GAME.

Do you see what I'm getting at here?

Quote:
That said, have a nice life, Richard Butte.
When you feel like adding something meaningful, I may feel like replying to you again.


Ah, then our forum affair was destined to be short but meaningful...

Fare thee well...

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 12:03am by TheRealDestian
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#320 Feb 22 2011 at 11:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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429 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
I was a sage after the first post I made on these forums, and I realized that I could either fall in with the herd and keep that status, or I could speak my mind unabated and people would rate me down for it.

Guess which one I chose.


Shameful but true. Regardless of how intelligent you try to make your posts or arguments, the fanboys will just rate you down and not even bother to reply to you or tell you why you're wrong.
#321 Feb 22 2011 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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16,959 posts
Wolfums wrote:
The game has been in development for almost 6 years now, and it's still an unpolished ****. The majority of players/testers were criticising every aspect of it from the day the alpha launched, up until open beta ended, and those that stuck around after release still do today. It saw one of the worst and most shameful releases of any MMO ever, topped only by APB. Game retailers are asking for recalls on this game because they cannot sell it.
Until they take the game offline and rework it, or abandon it, I will defend what I like about the game. It doesn't get simpler than that.
Meanwhile, I'll happily accept improvements to the current system. Tell me how adding an Auction House, or copy/pasting FFXI's combat system will suddenly and drastically increase the player base. Please.

Wolfums wrote:
Virtually everyone from the developers, to reviewers, management, share holders, testers, players, former players, prospective players, and trolls figured out that everything in this game sucks and is not fixable; only replaceable. Why can't you?
Obviously this it not true, or no one would be playing right now. No one.
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#322 Feb 22 2011 at 11:10 PM Rating: Good
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435 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
You come up with your sources on how the game is dead, or won't last 5 years unless they make a new battle system or whatever it is you're saying. Then I'll give you a list of names and (email) addresses of people - aka a petition. You first.


I already asked for those names and addresses FIRST. Don't welch on me, now...

Also, we're playing the game for FREE because SE saw the sheer number of people that wouldn't pay to play it shortly after launch when they left in droves. What more evidence do you need?

SE isn't letting us play for free out of the goodness of their hearts. They're doing it because they need SOME players to garner feedback from and frankly, the feedback from players who are telling them what it would take to make them come BACK to the game is more valuable than the feedback from those still playing it.

Quote:
I did a quick review of this thread and I can't really see how "forget the bird in the hand let's double our profit with the 2 in the bush!" is any realistic business strategy. That's what most of you are saying.


Because if the game's subscriber base isn't large enough to recoup even the basic expenses and upkeep from keeping it running, the game is going to die.

The bird in the hand is a finch. That won't feed the family. SE needs to either catch a turkey or die trying.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 12:23am by TheRealDestian
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#323 Feb 22 2011 at 11:19 PM Rating: Good
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435 posts
Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
[Until they take the game offline and rework it, or abandon it, I will defend what I like about the game. It doesn't get simpler than that.


That's just fine. No one will fault you for THAT because it's reasonable.

Personally, I like the retainer system and I don't think the game needs auto attack (I'd rather have each skill be more powerful and negate the need for a "basic attack" at all).

But I ACKNOWLEDGE that people want an AH and auto attack and that these two things would be better for the game on the whole, meaning that I will not place my personal preferences over the survival of the game because I understand how short-sighted and selfish that would be.

The best interests of the game >>>>>>> the best interests of the individual player.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 12:20am by TheRealDestian
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#324 Feb 22 2011 at 11:23 PM Rating: Good
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291 posts
I know I said I wouldn't reply but...

I've salvaged a question that might actually be meaningful.

Quote:
Also, we're playing the game for FREE because SE saw the sheer number of people that wouldn't pay to play it shortly after launch when they left in droves. What more evidence do you need?


This was true in November. The game is quite different now.

I actually stopped playing the game for about 30 days from Oct until the Nov 25 (I think it was) update and after December updates and a functional Retainer system (given: the crashes drive me into a rage sometimes) I've actually been having a complete blast.

So things are different. The game (to me, mind you) went from completely unbearable to something I legitimately enjoy doing. I'm not just going through the motions. I'm not pretending I'm having fun or dying to love this game. I actually think it's a good foundation and I truly think it would stand on its own if they just took what they have and HQ'd some systems. Battle System +3, Retainer System +2.

I don't see how my opinion is any more right/wrong than yours.
I don't see why you are so worked up over it, either.

The game is free right now because they said it would be until they ironed out a projection on the game they want it to be and how they'll get there. Not because it's dead, but because they're doing what they said they would do.

As far as I'm concerned (and my wife, and my friends, and my entire LS) the game is already revived, possibly on life-support, but certainly far from "dead" and currently in an uncertain cross-roads (to use some of your metaphors).

This is just how I feel when I play the game the way it is right now.
You can't change how I feel.

..and you're not doing a good job of convincing me you're projected future is the ONLY way the game will survive. You may convince me, but you're not there yet (and don't hold your breath).
____________________________
Battle Mage Kiru
#325 Feb 22 2011 at 11:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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429 posts
Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Tell me how adding an Auction House, or copy/pasting FFXI's combat system will suddenly and drastically increase the player base. Please.


No, you're right, adding just those won't dramatically increase the game's population. But replacing all the sh*t systems with good systems, and then advertising them will.

"Dude, we totally took out the combat delay and made combat effects flashier; and then we let you have more retainers"

Isn't going to bring back more people than,

"Dude, we redid the combat system. It's now flashier, more responsive, more intuitive, less spammy, more tactical, and just completely different and new; oh and we added a simple to use, fast, user friendly auction system so you can do your item trading quickly and easily".

Stop pretending like people who have been bashing the game's systems from April last year are going to be back if they only received tweaks.

Quote:
Obviously this it not true, or no one would be playing right now. No one.


Everyone's got their own reasons for sticking with the game, but let me tell you it's not because they love the current systems.

And I can prove this to you by pulling up all the poll data that Yoshi-P has provided us.

"What is your biggest expectation for the newly restructured development team?" 72.4% of the answers were "An overhaul to fundamental gameplay aspects."

"Which of the following issues you would like to see addressed first? (Choose only one)" The 2nd highest item on the list, behind more content, was the combat system. Both options DWARFED the other 7 options in importance.

"Which of the following would you like to see implemented first? (Choose only one)" 2nd highest item was Auction House, behind more quests/content, and again dwarfing the other options.

"What do you find most appealing about FINAL FANTASY XIV? (Choose only one)" Gameplay received a minuscule 6.6% of the votes.

"Would you welcome changes to FINAL FANTASY XIV that would drastically alter the rules already set in Eorzea?" A massive 85% of the people polled answered yes on this.

Do you see where I'm going with this? The people that are still interested in this game (meaning, the ones that took the poll) WANT a complete overhaul to most of the game's systems. This is data coming straight from the developers.

Why are you still pretending that things are fine and that people like it this way?

EDIT: Sorry, loaded question. Why are you still pretending that current systems will be fine and that people like them?

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 12:30am by Wolfums
#326 Feb 22 2011 at 11:51 PM Rating: Decent
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9,526 posts
Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Wolfums wrote:
The game has been in development for almost 6 years now, and it's still an unpolished ****. The majority of players/testers were criticising every aspect of it from the day the alpha launched, up until open beta ended, and those that stuck around after release still do today. It saw one of the worst and most shameful releases of any MMO ever, topped only by APB. Game retailers are asking for recalls on this game because they cannot sell it.
Until they take the game offline and rework it, or abandon it, I will defend what I like about the game. It doesn't get simpler than that.
Meanwhile, I'll happily accept improvements to the current system. Tell me how adding an Auction House, or copy/pasting FFXI's combat system will suddenly and drastically increase the player base. Please.

Wolfums wrote:
Virtually everyone from the developers, to reviewers, management, share holders, testers, players, former players, prospective players, and trolls figured out that everything in this game sucks and is not fixable; only replaceable. Why can't you?
Obviously this it not true, or no one would be playing right now. No one.


No Kirby, apparently we don't count because we don't hate the game wholesale. Only the haters can save XIV, right?

And really, I have no reason to be less confident...
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#327 Feb 22 2011 at 11:53 PM Rating: Decent
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1,569 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
Well, my interpretation of the Augment system was that it was a stupid, new way to sink your time. If you could upgrade your gear or weapons with augments in a multiple choice fashion (which I realize you can, now, but realize you couldn't then) it might have been fine - to build situational gear. Instead, it was a complex system that rewarded you with gear you could no longer trade/sell with updates you may or may not even want. It was basically like spending time to throw away gil. It was completely ridiculous.

I don't see it as different for the sake of different at all. I saw it as an attempt to make a system that people waste their time and gil on. Buying and rebuying armor, and questing and requesting to get that STR+1 on their gloves or some crap.
The role from the development side was to make another timesink, but the implementation and purpose of the system was to act similarly to enchants and gems without creating separate professions for them. You've seen the system itself. It was badly implemented. I'll stand by my comment on it being for the sake of being different. After all, this is the developer team that made call wyvern a 2-hour ability and had their head in the sand about summoners being nothing more than /WHM for a little over 4 years before they realized the job needed fixes.
Quote:
Retainers work, but people still want an Auction House. Retainers didn't work originally so it was fair game, then, but now people want Auction Houses for the sake of conformity. Retainers could (keyword is "could") ultimately evolve to be better than an Auction House, but many people are still stubbornly demanding their dismissal even though gear is easy to find. The only convenience missing is that you go to the gear rather than the gear comes to you. What is that? Just a minute shaved off the actual time and what do you gain? Well, I don't know yet. Hopefully a system that can't be controlled by RMT, but the closer it gets to functioning as an Auction House, the less this will be true. Time would tell if we let the system grow and evolve rather than demand new systems.
Retainers to me fall into that category of "different for the sake of being different". What most people (rightfully) inferred from the mess that came about was that the AH was on that list of things they should have kept from FFXI but did not for whatever reason.

The ship on retainers sailed back in November. The changes made since then have done a lot to help, and I can appreciated the increased level of efficiency of the current system, but at the same time can see where the guys saying it is just a slightly less efficient auction house are coming from.
Quote:
However, I don't see (exactly) why people would rather they build new systems like battle and auction houses, when they could just make systems that exist work better. Of the two, I think upgrading the current systems would take less time and thus bring us more content faster - instead they are spending time and effort making systems people are crying for (that they potentially won't appreciate anyway) and content is being pushed farther and farther away.
From a design perspective, battle fails mostly because there's no opportunity for quick commands being typed over party chat while fighting things. Not without voice-chat (which even WoW eventually implemented). On a concept level, battle is perfectly fine, because I have a pretty good idea of why team Tanaka made combat ability-spamfest with stamina as the limiter: They wanted to try to prevent the problem that arose in FFXI, where weapon speed and TP gain made or broke entire classes in melee combat (see anything/NIN vs 2-hander DDs before the famous 2-hander update).

In fact, that's pretty much the only argument against auto-attack that I consider viable: the above problem will more than likely repeat itself once haste scaling enters the picture and be made even worse if weapon delay reduction somehow comes into play because the current combat engine is one that encompases all classes instead of giving each class their own battle engine and resources to use. I'm sure there's ways around it, but it'd take some heavy balancing and trade-offs for it to work in general.
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#328 Feb 22 2011 at 11:59 PM Rating: Good
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429 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
No Kirby, apparently we don't count because we don't hate the game wholesale. Only the haters can save XIV, right?

And really, I have no reason to be less confident...


Just because I criticise the game doesn't mean I hate it. I have praised its good features when appropriate.
#329 Feb 23 2011 at 12:06 AM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
Wolfums wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
No Kirby, apparently we don't count because we don't hate the game wholesale. Only the haters can save XIV, right?

And really, I have no reason to be less confident...


Just because I criticise the game doesn't mean I hate it. I have praised its good features when appropriate.


And I would argue that what each person considers "good" features will vary and that there is no scientific way of deciding whose preference is better. So give others a break when they praise something you hate, because everyone has the right to like what they like.

The vitrolic, over-the-top, pronounciations people like you have been making about how terrible you think the game is are totally unjustified. It is fine to say "I don't like X and Y" but to declare those features a failure is inherently an overstatement.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#330 Feb 23 2011 at 12:15 AM Rating: Decent
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16,959 posts
I can only draw from my own experience, and from reading the forums since I started actively browsing FFXIV General.

I've noticed that a lot of people, even a few who are actually playing the game, have not bothered to try out the changes SE implemented in 1.15a.

How can I trust the opinion of someone who hasn't even logged in (and if they have, didn't try to give it more than a 10 minute glance over) to know the direction the game is taking? It would seem incredibly silly and wrong for me to agree with those players on the direction they think the game should take.

Wolfums wrote:
No, you're right, adding just those won't dramatically increase the game's population. But replacing all the sh*t systems with good systems, and then advertising them will.

"Dude, we totally took out the combat delay and made combat effects flashier; and then we let you have more retainers"

Isn't going to bring back more people than,

"Dude, we redid the combat system. It's now flashier, more responsive, more intuitive, less spammy, more tactical, and just completely different and new; oh and we added a simple to use, fast, user friendly auction system so you can do your item trading quickly and easily".
1) All you did was add extra adjectives in your second example.
2) Why can't those changes to the battle system happen without fudging around with a different, older battle system?
3) SE stated themselves that they were still working on the retainer system. They're not letting us use another retainer, and then just calling it quits.
I trust you don't need me to quote directly from the Lodestone on that.

Wolfums wrote:
Everyone's got their own reasons for sticking with the game, but let me tell you it's not because they love the current systems.
Ok, different wording then. "it's because they very much like the current system, the potential it has, and its functionality in its current state."

Wolfums wrote:
"Which of the following issues you would like to see addressed first? (Choose only one)" The 2nd highest item on the list, behind more content, was the combat system. Both options DWARFED the other 7 options in importance.
Yeah, because the UI lag and generally unpolished nature of the system was apparent to anyone who spent more than a few minutes in battle.
You cannot prove to me that the vast majority of other players think the same way you do on this one.

Wolfums wrote:
"Which of the following would you like to see implemented first? (Choose only one)" 2nd highest item was Auction House, behind more quests/content, and again dwarfing the other options.
Yes, because the retainer system was functioning horribly. They have since made it more stable (not quite enough yet), and added the Item Search. You'd need another poll asking the same question, and listing the same option to find more relevant information.

Wolfums wrote:
"What do you find most appealing about FINAL FANTASY XIV? (Choose only one)" Gameplay received a minuscule 6.6% of the votes.
If you make an MMO right, Gameplay shouldn't have been one of the top responses, given the pool of answers we had to choose from.
Story, Immersion and social interaction (communication systems) are arguably the most appealing about MMOs. This was a very subjective question, to which players could hold any number of different feelings on their favorite aspects about the game.

Wolfums wrote:
"Would you welcome changes to FINAL FANTASY XIV that would drastically alter the rules already set in Eorzea?" A massive 85% of the people polled answered yes on this.
Maybe poll this question again. In my opinion, it was an incredibly loaded question.
In effect, if you said no, you almost said "Hey, I'm complacent with how this game runs right now." when there were clearly flaws and issues that any player could see.
I don't know if people just weren't totally sure on what "drastic" means, or they felt like saying "No." would discourage the development team from working on fixes to large game features.

Wolfums wrote:
Why are you still pretending that things are fine and that people like it this way?

EDIT: Sorry, loaded question. Why are you still pretending that current systems will be fine and that people like them?
I don't have to pretend. The majority of players I've spoken to are excited about improvements on what we have now.
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#331 Feb 23 2011 at 12:16 AM Rating: Good
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429 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:


And I would argue that what each person considers "good" features will vary and that there is no scientific way of deciding whose preference is better. So give others a break when they praise something you hate, because everyone has the right to like what they like.

The vitrolic, over-the-top, pronounciations people like you have been making about how terrible you think the game is are totally unjustified. It is fine to say "I don't like X and Y" but to declare those features a failure is inherently an overstatement.


Is it an overstatement to call them failed when the people interested in the game want to get rid of them, when the developers have plans to stuff them, and when they've been criticised up and down by players and reviewers?

I don't think so.
#332 Feb 23 2011 at 12:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,500 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Wolfums wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
No Kirby, apparently we don't count because we don't hate the game wholesale. Only the haters can save XIV, right?

And really, I have no reason to be less confident...


Just because I criticise the game doesn't mean I hate it. I have praised its good features when appropriate.


And I would argue that what each person considers "good" features will vary and that there is no scientific way of deciding whose preference is better. So give others a break when they praise something you hate, because everyone has the right to like what they like.

The vitrolic, over-the-top, pronounciations people like you have been making about how terrible you think the game is are totally unjustified. It is fine to say "I don't like X and Y" but to declare those features a failure is inherently an overstatement.
I agree there is no way to determinate which preference is better, yet if you want to sell a product (or a subscription) you better please as much people as you can, and this may include annoying those who have uncommon preferences.

I think you guys are defending that hating the game is necessary to be heard by SE, but it's more like most people dislike the game and SE has to listen to them for being the majority not for disliking the game, look at ffxi between 2005-2007 a lot of people complained about the game structure and lack of balance between jobs, but as long as the majority kept their subscription SE didn't care at all.

However FFXIV unfortunately doesn't enjoy the popularity of it's predecessor, it isn't a matter of your preference being right or wrong just uncommon, hence less desirable from an financial point of view.

Ken
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FFXIV: Mabel Rand (Gugnir)
FFXI: Kenage, retired.
K&K forever!,
#333 Feb 23 2011 at 12:24 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Maybe poll this question again. In my opinion, it was an incredibly loaded question.
In effect, if you said no, you almost said "Hey, I'm complacent with how this game runs right now." when there were clearly flaws and issues that any player could see.
I don't know if people just weren't totally sure on what "drastic" means, or they felt like saying "No." would discourage the development team from working on fixes to large game features.


I spent 5 minutes (literally) toiling over this question (and a couple others) thinking this EXACT thing. I don't want complete overhauls, but at the same time if they have some good ideas I don't want them to hold back.

I didn't want to say "I like this game the way it is. Don't touch it."

I also didn't intend to imply "take it all apart and put it all back together" but I really wasn't given much other options.

I certainly didn't mean take a few more polls and implement everything people vote for like making a game is a Democracy. I had assumed (and still hope) they had some idea of what they wanted and were sampling their players (based on time spent in the game, ranks achieved, NMs & Leves completed - all readily available information on the Lodestone) to see just how far they could push their ideas. I had no idea I was signing up to let "majority" vote things in or out of the game - though I feared (with the Auction House question) that was really what was about to happen.


I'm glad you took the time to tear apart the faults of that poll (especially how it applies to a game after significant updates) because it saves me the trouble of having to do it. ^^

You have said everything I thought about the poll, even after he posted the results.

And my worries definitely (DEFINITELY) started at that particular question. Then they were reassured by some cute/charming letters. Now they are starting to rear up again because the letters contain some things I'm not very confident in.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 1:27am by Kirutaru
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#334 Feb 23 2011 at 1:22 AM Rating: Good
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Is it an overstatement to call them failed when the people interested in the game want to get rid of them, when the developers have plans to stuff them, and when they've been criticised up and down by players and reviewers?

I don't think so.


Every system and mechanic in existence can fail. It should not always translate to "they should axe them". That makes no sense whatsoever.

Only few features in this game are beyond all hope and doomed from the get-go. The rest of the features need work and polishing, more or less. Scrapping them for something else just does not make sense, because you still have to work on the new features and polish them just as much before they are in an acceptable condition.

Yoshida is mistaking their failure for trying out new things- no, they rushed the release and did not tweak their features long enough. They just half-assed everything and made them just good enough to be functional. Now they should be making the features as good as they deserve to be, while scrapping the few things that need to be scrapped.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#335 Feb 23 2011 at 1:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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429 posts
Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
How can I trust the opinion of someone who hasn't even logged in (and if they have, didn't try to give it more than a 10 minute glance over) to know the direction the game is taking? It would seem incredibly silly and wrong for me to agree with those players on the direction they think the game should take.


They are customers in the same way you are. They purchased the game, they paid their monthly fees (none, I am being facetious here), and their opinion on the game is as valid as yours.

This is also called a no true scotsman; "well they're not REAL players/fans".


Quote:
1) All you did was add extra adjectives in your second example.


To indicate what happens when a new system is put in place, as opposed to tweaking the current system. Tweaking implies minor change, overhaul implies major change. Of course a new system is going to have more adjectives attached to it, because it differs more than a tweaked system.

Quote:
2) Why can't those changes to the battle system happen without fudging around with a different, older battle system?


Maybe they can. Is it feasible (in terms of time constraints, cost, and number of people satisfied) or simpler to modify this system than getting a new one? Most likely not, otherwise getting a new system would have been a last resort. Right now, it seems that tweaking the current system is becoming a last resort.

Quote:
3) SE stated themselves that they were still working on the retainer system. They're not letting us use another retainer, and then just calling it quits.


They are. They are also still considering the AH system, seeing as how the retainer system is STILL getting a majority negative criticism (maybe, see below). Working on the retainer system does not imply that they have dropped the auction house system.

Like above, which is more feasible and simple? Fixing the retainer system, or putting in an AH? And more importantly, would having an AH from the start, or near the start of the game have made things a lot better (answer: yes)?

Quote:
Ok, different wording then. "it's because they very much like the current system, the potential it has, and its functionality in its current state."


Still no, as evidenced by question 9 on the poll. Gameplay was among the worst things that people liked about FFXIV. I would say that most people don't like the current system very much at all.

Quote:
Yeah, because the UI lag and generally unpolished nature of the system was apparent to anyone who spent more than a few minutes in battle.
You cannot prove to me that the vast majority of other players think the same way you do on this one.


I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're getting at here. Are you telling me that the majority of people don't want changes to the combat system? If that's what you're asking, did you just flat out ignore the numbers in the question?

Results for poll 2 haven't shown up yet (only have an unofficial poll to go by) and aren't conclusive yes or no "do you want X changed" questions. I can't use those as an indication of whether people want the combat system completely overhauled and neither can you.

Quote:
Yes, because the retainer system was functioning horribly. They have since made it more stable (not quite enough yet), and added the Item Search. You'd need another poll asking the same question, and listing the same option to find more relevant information.


The item search was present before the poll was taken. Only some usability tweaks have been made since. But I concede that answers may have changed by now.

Quote:
If you make an MMO right, Gameplay shouldn't have been one of the top responses, given the pool of answers we had to choose from.
Story, Immersion and social interaction (communication systems) are arguably the most appealing about MMOs. This was a very subjective question, to which players could hold any number of different feelings on their favorite aspects about the game.


This is a moot point because the MMO wasn't made right. The purpose of that question was to determine what people actually liked about it, and it turns out that gameplay was not it. The things that got low votes on that question are what need improvement.

Quote:
Maybe poll this question again. In my opinion, it was an incredibly loaded question.
In effect, if you said no, you almost said "Hey, I'm complacent with how this game runs right now." when there were clearly flaws and issues that any player could see.
I don't know if people just weren't totally sure on what "drastic" means, or they felt like saying "No." would discourage the development team from working on fixes to large game features.


It wasn't loaded at all, because it wasn't meant to gauge which multiple degrees of change people are comfortable with. It didn't ask you if you wanted no change, small tweaks, larger tweaks, or complete redesign. It was meant to see if players want a complete overhaul or not. It asked if you were ok with complete redesigns and the majority of people said yes. Those that were not comfortable with the possibility of NGE, and instead wanted smaller tweaks, voted no (and ended in the minority).

Quote:
I don't have to pretend. The majority of players I've spoken to are excited about improvements on what we have now.


This is called a hasty generalization and is also a logical fallacy. I'm arguing with a gigantic sample size representative of the whole of the FFXIV community. You're arguing with a tiny sample size of people that are likeminded.

You're also saying that people like the tweaks made to the current system, which is irrelevant to whether they still want the system to be changed or not.

You literally cannot argue that the people interested in this game don't want to see overhauls made to its gameplay aspects. I have cold, hard numbers to prove me right. If you're going to keep using logical fallacies and assumptions to try to disprove my points, then I'm going to claim moral victory, take my rate downs, and stop wasting time replying to you.
#336 Feb 23 2011 at 2:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Wolfums wrote:
They are customers in the same way you are. They purchased the game, they paid their monthly fees (none, I am being facetious here), and their opinion on the game is as valid as yours.

This is also called a no true scotsman; "well they're not REAL players/fans".
So you disagree with me, that it would not be in my best interest to put more weight into the opinions of people who have seen the changes for themselves?

Wolfums wrote:
Like above, which is more feasible and simple? Fixing the retainer system, or putting in an AH? And more importantly, would having an AH from the start, or near the start of the game have made things a lot better (answer: yes)?
You say yourself further down, that this game was not complete when it was launched. The same problem you had with my point, can be applied here.

Wolfums wrote:
Still no, as evidenced by question 9 on the poll. Gameplay was among the worst things that people liked about FFXIV. I would say that most people don't like the current system very much at all.
I'll have to give you that one. I don't see how players could stick around because of the graphics, or the almost non-existent content, but that's probably just me.

Wolfums wrote:
I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're getting at here. Are you telling me that the majority of people don't want changes to the combat system? If that's what you're asking, did you just flat out ignore the numbers in the question?
No, I meant to go back to this question and flesh out my response, but never got around to it.

You're assuming here, that because players chose the Combat System as one of the biggest issues, that they wanted fundamental changes to it. I see no way you could arrive at that conclusion based on the question and its responses alone.

Wolfums wrote:
The item search was present before the poll was taken. Only some usability tweaks have been made since. But I concede that answers may have changed by now.
Ah, yes. I was thinking of the added prices and locations of those retainers that they added in 1.15a.
I really would like to see updated responses to the Item Search now.

Wolfums wrote:
It was meant to see if players want a complete overhaul or not. It asked if you were ok with complete redesigns and the majority of people said yes. Those that were not comfortable with the possibility of NGE, and instead wanted smaller tweaks, voted no (and ended in the minority).
What it was meant to inquire about, and what it actually got as results, may not have been the same.

I expressed my doubts on this. I don't really see where else we could go with this. It was also an all-encompassing question. It didn't specify. I myself can see no real use for this kind of information, but I suppose it helped make up Yoshi's mind.

Wolfums wrote:
You're also saying that people like the tweaks made to the current system, which is irrelevant to whether they still want the system to be changed or not.
Liking the recent changes could mean they want further changes, or it could mean they're ok with the systems now.
I do not see how it could be misconstrued into a vote of confidence, to go ahead and do complete overhauls. Maybe I'm just not seeing exactly what you meant.

Wolfums wrote:
You literally cannot argue that the people interested in this game don't want to see overhauls made to its gameplay aspects. I have cold, hard numbers to prove me right. If you're going to keep using logical fallacies and assumptions to try to disprove my points, then I'm going to claim moral victory, take my rate downs, and stop wasting time replying to you.
Maybe I can't. It was never my intent to suppose that a lot of players thought as I do about this game currently. Just that it was a significant, possibly minor (but it doesn't seem so, within this thread anyway), viewpoint. Not to be brushed away lightly.

The thread derailed into people like TheRealDestian jumping down Olo's throat, as if saying "How silly of you, to question how your game will turn out."
But I can't argue facts and numbers with feelings. I can certainly try, but it only leads to frustration. And leaves no one changed on their stance.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 1:17am by Kirby
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#337 Feb 23 2011 at 3:02 AM Rating: Good
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Kirutaru wrote:
[They can't afford to be different or unique?
How is this something you have intimate knowledge of?


You're overlooking or forgetting certain key things. FFXI and the first incarnation of FFXIV were Tanaka's brainchildren. Tanaka has demonstrated in no uncertain terms that he failed in a big way to evolve his philosophies around game development with the rest of the genre. Yoshida's background is a bit more contemporary. He's played western style MMOs for years and has (I would guess) a much better understanding of what to offer in a global atmosphere to try to captivate players. He's also at the helm of a sinking ship where his best bet to succeed is to fall back on proven concepts. Gambling on innovation is something a developer can afford to do pre-launch. SE did just that. We know the outcome. Now is not the time to be gambling. Now is the time to be fixing. You can deny all you like. It doesn't matter. At the end of the day you can already look over Yoshida's "To-do list" and see that he's leaning heavily towards concepts that are already a part of the mainstream MMO genre. That doesn't mean it can't have the quirky FF elements that so many of us grew to love over the years, but those are things that can be built on top of a functional system that is adequately familiar to a wide audience that they might actually look at the game a few months from now and feel enthusiastic about it.

Take a look at what is happening with Rift right now. (I'm offering this example only to illustrate a point. If someone wants to debate why Rift is/isn't a good game, find someone else to debate with.)

Rift's head-start launch for pre-order customers is set to begin this Thursday. They've given us the server list for that head-start launch. 29 servers (total including NA and EU). That number was arrived at based on pre-order sales figures. And already MMO media sites are talking about what Rift is doing to the genre. While Yoshida is talking about how an MMO should be akin to a theme park, I'm already reading editorials from people pointing out that MMOs started off in the sandbox style, then evolved into the theme park, and now they're heading into dynamic content. Guess who gets credit for that shift? That's an example of innovation that works. Not, "Hey, let's take this basic aspect of an MMO and turn it on its ear just so we can say we're different and...oh...90% of the people who tried it don't like it."

Quote:
How do you know where they can and can't draw the line at sticking their necks out?


Again, the time for sticking necks out is over. It's done. It's gone. SE had their chance, we know the outcome, and continuing to gamble on big fat maybes is not the solution.

Quote:
It's as if you're saying "different and unique" can't be profitable and the proof is this game that was released a year early with content that wasn't well implemented or functioning properly. How can you use that as an example? How do you know they can't simply make the game work properly and have all the content they intended and everyone will love it?


There has to be a reason for it to be different and unique and even more importantly, there has to be a benefit to the player. "Different and unique" at the expense of gameplay is not kosher.

Quote:
You can't, I don't think. Neither can I. I'm not saying they should do that (though I'd prefer it) but I don't get you guys when you make grand sweeping generalizations like "there's no time to be niche" and "they can't afford different and unique."


It's pretty simple. It takes time to think up "unique" concepts. It then takes more time to flesh them out. It takes more time still to implement them in a working system in something like an MMO. It then takes even more time to iterate on those systems until they become something that will work across a broad spectrum of criteria. That's time that SE doesn't have.
#338 Feb 23 2011 at 3:11 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Gambling on innovation is something a developer can afford to do pre-launch. SE did just that. We know the outcome. Now is not the time to be gambling. Now is the time to be fixing. You can deny all you like. It doesn't matter. At the end of the day you can already look over Yoshida's "To-do list" and see that he's leaning heavily towards concepts that are already a part of the mainstream MMO genre. That doesn't mean it can't have the quirky FF elements that so many of us grew to love over the years, but those are things that can be built on top of a functional system that is adequately familiar to a wide audience that they might actually look at the game a few months from now and feel enthusiastic about it.


You're acting like there is some huge "risk" involved with fleshing out what already exists. There isn't. From the feedback given a monkey could point out features that end up working (and what needs to be done to make it work) and features that should be scrapped. Yoshida is doing a lot of useless work to change something that doesn't need to be changed.

Quote:
It's pretty simple. It takes time to think up "unique" concepts. It then takes more time to flesh them out. It takes more time still to implement them in a working system in something like an MMO. It then takes even more time to iterate on those systems until they become something that will work across a broad spectrum of criteria. That's time that SE doesn't have.


The point is, that most of that work is already done. Now SE is throwing it all away at the finish line. That's dumb. Simple as that.

And if they think they don't have what it takes to pull it off when all the answers are in front of them, they don't deserve to succeed.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 12:11pm by Hyanmen
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#339 Feb 23 2011 at 3:41 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The point is, that most of that work is already done. Now SE is throwing it all away at the finish line. That's dumb. Simple as that.


Ayayay. I don't know where your confidence comes from, but you're giving them too much credit.
Having a good idea is a very important first step - but that's where the real work begins. At
the moment, most of what they have is either half-assed (and half-assed things need a loooooot
of time to fix. Just think about how long it took them to improve the retainer dungeons); or it
is little more than some castle in the skies, little more than a "general idea of what would be
cool" - like companies and group-based crafting.

Quote:
You're acting like there is some huge "risk" involved with fleshing out what already exists.


Rather than risk, the crucial and non-available resource is time. Time to implement, time to flesh
out, time to test, time to modify. Again, how much time did they invest in keeping the retainer-zombies
in their moist underground... concentration camps... alife? They *are* definitely better now than in
the beginning. To a point where they are basically just a sort of inconvenient half-assed AH.
I guess you see what I'm aiming at.

Many things were... "not mainstream" in FFXI, but some things were truly innovative, fun and pretty
special (like skillchains - a concept which, if I'm not mistaken, SE pioneered). The job/subjob
system was another thing done pretty *pretty* well. I still don't understand why they fundamentally
changed / dumbed down their greatest innovations.
#340 Feb 23 2011 at 4:01 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Rather than risk, the crucial and non-available resource is time. Time to implement, time to flesh
out, time to test, time to modify.

They *are* definitely better now than in
the beginning. To a point where they are basically just a sort of inconvenient half-assed AH.
I guess you see what I'm aiming at.


Yes, I do. You think they can just pop an AH out of their **** in few weeks if they wanted to. You act like building an AH from the scratch would need less work than what polishing the Marketplace needed. That's simply twisted because that's not how it works.

AH needs time. Auto-attack needs time. You have no basis to say that implementing said features from the scratch would take less work than just polishing the existing features. They've already done the most work that is needed to build new systems. Yes, if you start building a new feature from the scratch it takes more time than building an old feature from the scratch. But that is irrelevant right now, because the new features don't need to be built from the scratch anymore. The old features do.
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#341 Feb 23 2011 at 4:06 AM Rating: Decent
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The issue is that you know how "old-fashioned" features like a AH work.
They require no (conceptual) testing and tweaking. The retainer wards,
however (and several other elements, like BRs) are untested, untweaked.
And after 5 (almost 6) months of tweaking around, many (I will not say
most, because then you could be picky and want me to prove it) players
still consider it the poor man's solution.
#342 Feb 23 2011 at 4:13 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The issue is that you know how "old-fashioned" features like a AH work.
They require no (conceptual) testing and tweaking. The retainer wards,
however (and several other elements, like BRs) are untested, untweaked.


Yes, they just need to be built from the ground-up at this point.

Existing features need testing and tweaking (and we have tested them for almost a year, they have all the info they need to tweak the systems accordingly). They just won't because they are stuck up on the "oh my god we tried new things and that was wrong even though that has nothing to do with our failure"-mindset.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#343Quanta, Posted: Feb 23 2011 at 5:48 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Why do they need to start from scratch? They have a base system in place that they can refactor to suit their needs. Add auto-attack, remove the two most basic abilities from the action bar (light and heavy strike, light and heavy slash, phantom dart, etc.) and you've already begun the transition to a newer and more familiar system. They could also keep the light and heavy attacks and go the DCUO route of binding them to the mouse buttons as left and right click respectively, with a combo system to serve as a delivery mechanism for weapon skills, while reserving special abilities for the action bar. Either way should work.
#344 Feb 23 2011 at 6:05 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
From what I understand, the only thing they have left to do to transform the wards into the most rudimentary AH system possible is to let you post items from the search screen; after that, it's a matter of gradually removing the remaining elements of the previous system that are no longer necessary (eg. retainers, the wards themselves) while making changes to the new and existing elements which would make up the system. In other words, work on an AH has already begun, but it started in such a fashion that nobody seemed to take notice.


Precisely. Original Marketplace was one of the few features that could not have worked efficiently enough regardless of the work put into it. Same goes for the server-side UI. And they have made the correct changes to turn the Marketplace into an AH, without having to deal with unnecessary work that starting an AH from the scratch would require (so far, at least). Most features in the game do not need to be remodeled into something else. Marketplace and the UI do.

And most importantly, they did it regardless of players ridiculing them for "still stubbornly working on the marketplace". They did what was right. We just wanted to axe the whole feature altogether, which would not have been as efficient in the long run.

Quote:
Why do they need to start from scratch?


Because an auto-attack feature does not exist in this game in any form. If you think it does, I'd like if you pointed it out for me.
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#345 Feb 23 2011 at 6:25 AM Rating: Default
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Hyanmen wrote:
Because an auto-attack feature does not exist in this game in any form. If you think it does, I'd like if you pointed it out for me.


It doesn't have to be pre-existing; like the market improvements, it can be added into the existing system. It's not that big of a stretch to remove the basic attacks and have it execute one automatically every x seconds for zero stamina cost, with special abilities taking execution priority. What, you think it's more intricate than that?
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Don't play that game anymore. :P
#346 Feb 23 2011 at 6:41 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It doesn't have to be pre-existing; like the market improvements, it can be added into the existing system. It's not that big of a stretch to remove the basic attacks and have it execute one automatically every x seconds for zero stamina cost, with special abilities taking execution priority. What, you think it's more intricate than that?


If they want to make it equal or better to XI's, yes. That game was made with auto-attack in mind from the beginning. XIV is not.

Either way, it's not a big stretch to tweak the existing feature either. I would say it's even easier. Make stamina work only on abilities with no cooldown, maybe tweak the rate of stamina regeneration accordingly, and the system improves dramatically. It's not any more time-consuming than using something "familiar", I'd say it's even less so. So, why?

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 3:42pm by Hyanmen
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#347 Feb 23 2011 at 6:49 AM Rating: Decent
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Truth be told, that's why Demon's Souls was such a badly received game too. It had a battle system not worth saving.


Deomn's Souls wasn't poorly received. It has an 89 / 100 score on Metacritic and is considered one of the more successful games on the PS3.



yeah lol what the **** let's not diss games that are critically acclaimed and one of the best games on ps3 ok? =D
#348 Feb 23 2011 at 6:54 AM Rating: Default
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The point is, that most of that work is already done. Now SE is throwing it all away at the finish line. That's dumb. Simple as that.


What is done?
Where are you getting your sources that any of it is done?
How can you assume this?
If it was done why was a majority of it not patched in 1.15b?
What is with your up with your aggression towards yoshida?
#349 Feb 23 2011 at 7:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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3,416 posts
Quote:
What is done?


The most tasking groundwork necessary to conceptualize and implement new features.

Quote:
Where are you getting your sources that any of it is done?


By logging in to the game.

Quote:
How can you assume this?


I trust that I am not imagining the game's existence.

Quote:
If it was done why was a majority of it not patched in 1.15b?


Because it has been already implemented.

Quote:
What is with your up with your aggression towards yoshida?


I'm not really aggressive towards the guy. No one is perfect and we should not assume he would be any different. Some of the things he is about to implement are great. Some others, not so much. Because focusing on the good things is not very productive, I focus on the parts that seemingly aren't. If he has a greater plan I am unaware of, good. If he doesn't, it's even better we make him think these things through.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 4:10pm by Hyanmen
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#350 Feb 23 2011 at 7:16 AM Rating: Decent
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I will say this, historicly the complete reinvention of a game system has been a bad move. I do not think they should go so far as to change the current classes or thier names, it would also be for the best if they atleast keep the idea of what the game systems were ment to acomplish in mind.

After what other companied have done to games in the name of "akeing them more inviting to players", such as Starwars Galaxies (sorry it's late other names aren't coming to mind but I know there are others), I think it is safe to say it is porabably for the best if they don't try to completely change it from the ground up.

I admit it needs work, I would be happy with less change than most but so long as I can log back in at some point and still feel like it's the same world I'll be happy in the end.

I am an archer, I do not want to log in and find I'm a ranger.
#351 Feb 23 2011 at 7:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

The most tasking groundwork necessary to conceptualize and implement new features.


No way the groundwork is done at all. The groundwork is like a starving child in africa if you consider that done.
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