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Feeling less confident about the future of XIVFollow

#352 Feb 23 2011 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
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zurinadrg wrote:
After what other companied have done to games in the name of "akeing them more inviting to players", such as Starwars Galaxies (sorry it's late other names aren't coming to mind but I know there are others), I think it is safe to say it is porabably for the best if they don't try to completely change it from the ground up.


The issue with using SWG as an example of what could go wrong is that SWG was, prior to the NGE, a reasonably successful game. FFXIV, meanwhile, has never been successful; ergo, a NGE update isn't going to make things any worse for them.
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#353 Feb 23 2011 at 7:49 AM Rating: Decent
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No way the groundwork is done at all. The groundwork is like a starving child in africa if you consider that done.


You seem to put much emphasis on how polished the groundwork is. It's not supposed to be. Last April when they barely got the Alpha to run, the groundwork was already pretty much done even at that point. Surely, after the groundwork is done the polishing can improve the features dramatically, but it's not really that taxing process in the end, when compared to the groundwork and setting things up. XIV is already past that stage, and whatever extra time conceptualizing and implementing the new features took, it doesn't matter anymore. They can't go back, so they better make use of that time to the best of their abilities by finishing what they had started (which, at this point, takes just as long as going back to old ways), as long as the feature is not without any merits. Only few features are really that way.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 4:52pm by Hyanmen
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#354 Feb 23 2011 at 8:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Surely, after the groundwork is done the polishing can improve the features dramatically, but it's not really that taxing process in the end, when compared to the groundwork and setting things up.


Here, dear Sir, I think you are completely, 100% wrong.
The retainer wards are a good example where your "polishing"
of the original idea took more than 5 months.
#355 Feb 23 2011 at 8:13 AM Rating: Good
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Here, dear Sir, I think you are completely, 100% wrong.
The retainer wards are a good example where your "polishing"
of the original idea took more than 5 months.


With who knows how many people working on them (not many, I'd say). Not to mention

A) That's one of the features that did need to be changed from the core. The new concept simply wouldn't have worked either way.

B) If it wasn't for the shake-up in management, we would be much further in development than we are right now. The original item search took what, 2½ months to implement? Not five.

2½ months, or even five, is a small amount compared to what they had to do to get there. The game has been in development for at least 3 years, most likely more. If <10 people can do it in a few months, no, I wouldn't say it's that taxing process in the big picture of things.
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#356 Feb 23 2011 at 9:47 AM Rating: Good
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SO! After all that back and forth, can we agree that Tactics ogre is the best thing to come out of SE in the past year ?

Yes ? Ok!

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#357 Feb 23 2011 at 9:53 AM Rating: Good
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This thread is depressing.
#358 Feb 23 2011 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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Fitting the game.
#359 Feb 23 2011 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
You're acting like there is some huge "risk" involved with fleshing out what already exists. There isn't. From the feedback given a monkey could point out features that end up working (and what needs to be done to make it work) and features that should be scrapped. Yoshida is doing a lot of useless work to change something that doesn't need to be changed.


The first poll highlighted what people wanted to see changed. It illustrated that the majority of players are not opposed to substantial changes. Yoshi's "To-do list" makes heavy reference to concepts and gameplay aspects you find in other MMOs. And still some people are in denial. No, no, they just need to tweak. They just going to polish. They just going to add. Some of you guys have been following that same approach of denial for over a year now. It's time to just look at things the way they are instead of clinging to this naive hope that the kind of niche game some of you seem to want is not viable for FFXIV.

If you don't see the risk by now, nothing I say is going to make it any more clear for you.

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It's pretty simple. It takes time to think up "unique" concepts. It then takes more time to flesh them out. It takes more time still to implement them in a working system in something like an MMO. It then takes even more time to iterate on those systems until they become something that will work across a broad spectrum of criteria. That's time that SE doesn't have.


The point is, that most of that work is already done. Now SE is throwing it all away at the finish line. That's dumb. Simple as that.


Okay. So you think it's dumb. Doesn't change what's happening.

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And if they think they don't have what it takes to pull it off when all the answers are in front of them, they don't deserve to succeed.


The answers in front of them tell them that out of all the people who bought the game, a minority bordering on insubstantial are the only ones left who think the game is even tolerable. Tweaks and polish aren't going to get the job done. It's not about tailoring the game to suit the people still playing. It's about altering the game to suit enough people to make it financially viable. They don't deserve to succeed based on what they originally offered as evidenced by the fact that they haven't succeeded. The number of people playing the game 3 months after SE starts charging the monthly fee will tell the tale about whether or not the changes Yoshida make were smart choices.
#360 Feb 23 2011 at 11:09 AM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
Some of you guys have been following that same approach of denial for over a year now. It's time to just look at things the way they are instead of clinging to this naive hope that the kind of niche game some of you seem to want is not viable for FFXIV.


I don't know how many more times this needs to be said.

FFXIV was not intended to be a niche game, it was not built on a niche budget, it's not trying to be niche at all, and the moment it accepts the fact that it is a niche game is the moment the game will officially be terminated because it's never going to recoup the production costs.
#361 Feb 23 2011 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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The first poll highlighted what people wanted to see changed. It illustrated that the majority of players are not opposed to substantial changes.


Yes, and I think most people agreed to this with the assumption that the substantial changes would end up benefiting the game in the end. Sure, many things they are about to change substantially reflect this mindset- some others, not really. If they unlocked the current skills instead of us being locked to the ground that would be a substantial change for the better. If they rehauled the skill graphics that would be a change for the better.

But then we have things like changing class names and auto-attack. These are not changes 'for the better'. This is like changing letter A for letter B (that everyone has looked at for 1-7 years already), like it makes any difference. It's an alphabet nonetheless. If there's something that needs more than tweaking or polishing, surely they can and should change them. But these changes- really, it's not me who lives in denial if you think changing Marauder to Warrior is going to magically make a difference or that this was a necessary change that for some reason had to be done.

This has nothing to do with niche at this point (although if they do bring XI's gameplay over to XIV, might as well call it a niche). This has nothing to do with the changes that are going to benefit the game (and yes, there are many of them in that list). It just has to make sense or at least I am not in agreement of changing things just for the sake of changing them. They already did this once, and they are about to do it again, now with most the playerbase behind their decision. At least they're not alone in this ordeal.

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Tweaks and polish aren't going to get the job done.


I never said they would. I am simply saying that features that need overhauling should be overhauled, the rest should be tweaked and polished accordingly. We will benefit from an UI overhaul. We will benefit from a marketplace overhaul. We will benefit from changing...class..names? Rather than polishing and emphasizing the existing class lore, they just had to go and change it completely. Needlessly. Polish was enough, or an overhaul that kept the original system intact (like with unlocking skills) which most likely needs to be done regardless of this change.

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The number of people playing the game 3 months after SE starts charging the monthly fee will tell the tale about whether or not the changes Yoshida make were smart choices.


He may not need to do a perfect job to get the job done- it won't tell anything about whether everything he did was for the better. What's wrong with pointing out what- seemingly- is not for the better at this point? Honestly, it won't hurt and the chances of success are even greater. He's doing a good job, doesn't mean he couldn't do even better.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 8:40pm by Hyanmen
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#362 Feb 23 2011 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Kirutaru wrote:
So things are different. The game (to me, mind you) went from completely unbearable to something I legitimately enjoy doing. I'm not just going through the motions. I'm not pretending I'm having fun or dying to love this game. I actually think it's a good foundation and I truly think it would stand on its own if they just took what they have and HQ'd some systems. Battle System +3, Retainer System +2.


Things are better, but they're still not better to the point where they've brought the FFXIV owners back to play the game.

That's what SE is trying to do right now, and they know as well as anyone that it's going to take nothing short of a massive revamp in order to do that. That's why they're letting these people play for free right now, because they know the game can't survive if they were charging people.

They need these players to come back and try the game first, and they'll stay subscribed so long as it's free (most will anyway).

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
And I would argue that what each person considers "good" features will vary and that there is no scientific way of deciding whose preference is better.


It's called a "player poll", and the majority rules.

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The vitrolic, over-the-top, pronounciations people like you have been making about how terrible you think the game is are totally unjustified. It is fine to say "I don't like X and Y" but to declare those features a failure is inherently an overstatement.


When you have hard, empirical data staring you in the face, YES, you can declare features a failure.

When 85% of the players who cared enough to take the poll would like to see a sweeping changes to the game and its systems, what counter argument is there left that doesn't boil down to, "No! I don't want to see the game change so I think it shouldn't have sweeping changes, even if that means it dies!"

85% of the players want to see massive change. EIGHTY FIVE FREAKING PERCENT!!!!! You can only stretch the "people don't know what they really want" nonsense so far, especially when they've already played the game as it currently is and they clearly don't want it like this.
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#363 Feb 23 2011 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
The answers in front of them tell them that out of all the people who bought the game, a minority bordering on insubstantial are the only ones left who think the game is even tolerable. Tweaks and polish aren't going to get the job done. It's not about tailoring the game to suit the people still playing. It's about altering the game to suit enough people to make it financially viable. They don't deserve to succeed based on what they originally offered as evidenced by the fact that they haven't succeeded. The number of people playing the game 3 months after SE starts charging the monthly fee will tell the tale about whether or not the changes Yoshida make were smart choices.


This truly cannot be restated enough.

In fact, every time someone makes the argument that FFXIV can just be tweaked and people will come back to play it, we should just copy-paste this paragraph and click reply.
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#364 Feb 23 2011 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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So i just came back from winning Tol Barad in an epic back and forth for 25 minutes, what have you guys been doing ? Still killing coblyns and dodos 6 months after release ? Or are you guys crafting gear to kill the mobs you just killed w/o crafted gear ? My my some of you guy's have the patience of Saints!



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#365 Feb 23 2011 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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This truly cannot be restated enough.

In fact, every time someone makes the argument that FFXIV can just be tweaked and people will come back to play it, we should just copy-paste this paragraph and click reply.


Either way we should not justify every substantial change Yoshida is about to make with this reasoning. Because it's just as untrue. They shouldn't change features substantially without proper reason for it. Nobody(okay, me at least) is saying that they can get by with only tweaks. But I think they could direct their substantial changes better than they have so far.
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#366 Feb 23 2011 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Either way we should not justify every substantial change Yoshida is about to make with this reasoning. Because it's just as untrue. They shouldn't change features substantially without proper reason for it. Nobody(okay, me at least) is saying that they can get by with only tweaks. But I think they could direct their substantial changes better than they have so far.


85% of the players who cared enough to take the poll (these are the players who would presumably come back with changes made) said that they would welcome sweeping, massive changes to the game.

What more does Yoshida need? The clouds to part and god himself to reach his mighty hand down and give Yoshida a thumbs up of approval in his plan?
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#367 Feb 23 2011 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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85% of the players who cared enough to take the poll (these are the players who would presumably come back with changes made) said that they would welcome sweeping, massive changes to the game.


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Yes, and I think most people agreed to this with the assumption that the substantial changes would end up benefiting the game in the end. Sure, many things they are about to change substantially reflect this mindset- some others, not really. If they unlocked the current skills instead of us being locked to the ground that would be a substantial change for the better. If they rehauled the skill graphics that would be a change for the better.


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What more does Yoshida need?


How about we don't just stay silent on changes that are not going to benefit the game just because he is about to implement changes that are going to benefit the game as well? Why must it be all or nothing?
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#368 Feb 23 2011 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
How about we don't just stay silent on changes that are not going to benefit the game just because he is about to implement changes that are going to benefit the game as well? Why must it be all or nothing?


What changes aren't going to benefit the game?

If enough people want auto attack, give them auto attack. If enough people want an AH, give them an AH.

I think not changing the game ENOUGH will do more damage than changing it too much at this point.
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#369 Feb 23 2011 at 12:56 PM Rating: Default
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Ostia wrote:
So i just came back from winning Tol Barad in an epic back and forth for 25 minutes, what have you guys been doing ? Still killing coblyns and dodos 6 months after release ? Or are you guys crafting gear to kill the mobs you just killed w/o crafted gear ? My my some of you guy's have the patience of Saints!





Out of all the things to do in WoW to make FFXIV look bad, you come in with your Tol Barad victory? Really? Talk about a waste of time...

What did you get like 180 honor for winning that fight? And it took you 25 mins to do so? Fail so hard.
#370 Feb 23 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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What changes aren't going to benefit the game?

If enough people want auto attack, give them auto attack. If enough people want an AH, give them an AH.


Just because people want something doesn't mean implementing it will benefit the game. That should be obvious enough.

If it takes one tweak to turn the marketplace into an AH replica, they should instead work on building an actual AH from the scratch because enough people want them to do that and "stop working on the stupid marketplace already".

Half of the playerbase want old class names. Half of the playerbase are fine with the new names. And the general majority of potential players could not care less what the classes are called. That said, changing Marauder to Warrior will benefit the game? Many will like the change. Many will dislike the change. Most don't care. Status quo stays the same.

Changes for the sake of changing are not beneficial for this game. Overhaul what needs to be overhauled, polish the rest.
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#371 Feb 23 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
That said, changing Marauder to Warrior will benefit the game? Many will like the change. Many will dislike the change. Most don't care. Status quo stays the same.

Changes for the sake of changing are not beneficial for this game. Overhaul what needs to be overhauled, polish the rest.


So this entire thing is a nitpick about a minor change that would only require a few hours from one programmer? Seriously?
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#372 Feb 23 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Good
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So this entire thing is a nitpick about a minor change that would only require a few hours from one programmer? Seriously?


A) It was an example. More including but not limited to, auto-attack and jumping (effort vs. benefit).

B) Yes, if you want to be called a Warrior but every skill, equipment and dialog still addresses you as Marauder, it'll only take few hours from one programmer. The lore would also still make you some kind of a pirate/rogue hybrid. And let's not even dive into the problems of transition from conjurer to "white mage" with nukes and AM. May need a second programmer and few more hours for that one. Obviously all of this has to be done 4 times in French, German, English and Japanese, and I am sure they have their own personnel for translating duties.

All of this to make half of the playerbase happy and half of the playerbase grumpy. And most people still don't give a crap.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 10:13pm by Hyanmen
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#373 Feb 23 2011 at 1:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wolfums wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Some of you guys have been following that same approach of denial for over a year now. It's time to just look at things the way they are instead of clinging to this naive hope that the kind of niche game some of you seem to want is not viable for FFXIV.


I don't know how many more times this needs to be said.

FFXIV was not intended to be a niche game, it was not built on a niche budget, it's not trying to be niche at all, and the moment it accepts the fact that it is a niche game is the moment the game will officially be terminated because it's never going to recoup the production costs.


Actually..the very definition of niche (adj. - having specific appeal) is exactly what FF is and always has been. If it wasn't a niche game...it would have been designed from the ground up to reach everyone(being non-specific). It would have been faster pace. It would have been easier. It would have copied UI ideas from other successful MMOs. etc etc etc... It went after a specific group of players. And when that niche group of players abandoned it...boom went the hammer. Was it built as a niche on purpose? Who knows...I don't think Tanaka knew any better.

It is a niche game and at the moment its trying to escape that. That's how it will survive.
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#374 Feb 23 2011 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
A) It was an example. More including but not limited to, auto-attack and jumping (effort vs. benefit).

B) Yes, if you want to be called a Warrior but every skill, equipment and dialog still addresses you as Marauder, it'll only take few hours from one programmer. The lore would also still make you some kind of a pirate/rogue hybrid. And let's not even dive into the problems of transition from conjurer to "white mage" with nukes and AM. May need a second programmer and few more hours for that one. Obviously all of this has to be done 4 times in French, German, English and Japanese, and I am sure they have their own personnel for translating duties.

All of this to make half of the playerbase happy and half of the playerbase grumpy. And most people still don't give a crap.


Okay, I see what you're saying now...

I think the rest is up to Yoshida's personal vision of what the game should be like, and that's his choice. If he thinks the classes should be renamed, it's his call.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 2:33pm by TheRealDestian
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#375 Feb 23 2011 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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I think the rest is up to Yoshida's personal vision of what the game should be like, and that's his choice.


What a bad vision it is, then. I don't think I'm going to take it at a face value, as that sure worked with Tanaka. Let's repeat the same mistakes, now everyone together.

If Tanaka thinks he should make a Marketplace feature and server-side UI, it's his call man. Let's not question it needlessly. That be his vision.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 10:38pm by Hyanmen
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#376 Feb 23 2011 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
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I think the rest is up to Yoshida's personal vision of what the game should be like, and that's his choice.


What a bad vision it is, then. I don't think I'm going to take it at a face value, as that sure worked with Tanaka. Let's repeat the same mistakes, now everyone together.

If Tanaka thinks he should make a Marketplace feature and server-side UI, it's his call man. Let's not question it needlessly. That be his vision.


So it is a nitpick after all?

He's talking about changing the names of the classes to be more FF-like. I don't see how that can be compared to Tanaka's decision to make things unique and different, even at the expense of a great deal of functionality.
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#377 Feb 23 2011 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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So it is a nitpick after all?

He's talking about changing the names of the classes to be more FF-like. I don't see how that can be compared to Tanaka's decision to make things unique and different, even at the expense of a great deal of functionality.


A change just for the sake of changing. Same **** result, different approach.

It's not going to benefit the game, so why should we not be against it (unless you have a personal preference)? "It's his vision man" simply won't cut it. Not anymore.

This kind of worshipping really does upset me. He can do anything he wants, he's the Yoshi-P. To **** with the game itself.
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#378 Feb 23 2011 at 1:52 PM Rating: Good
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TheRealDestian wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I think the rest is up to Yoshida's personal vision of what the game should be like, and that's his choice.


What a bad vision it is, then. I don't think I'm going to take it at a face value, as that sure worked with Tanaka. Let's repeat the same mistakes, now everyone together.

If Tanaka thinks he should make a Marketplace feature and server-side UI, it's his call man. Let's not question it needlessly. That be his vision.


So it is a nitpick after all?

He's talking about changing the names of the classes to be more FF-like. I don't see how that can be compared to Tanaka's decision to make things unique and different, even at the expense of a great deal of functionality.


The point is time used to do changes which have no discernible impact on the quality of the game is time wasted. Do you really think that anyone who uninstalled this game did so because we had conjurers, and no whitemages? I mean, first of all - the classes were on the website before even open beta - so that wasn't something unexpected. Anyone who bought the game bought it knowing we had MRD and GLA not WAR and PLD.

If a change won't bring back a single customer, wastes developer time, forces them to waste creative team time reworking the lore, etc. It is a dumb thing to spend resources on.

I know you're just going to say I am selfish and don't want to save the game or some other completely ridiculous and untrue thing - but this whole thread is about the fact that I do want to save the game, and part of doing so is making a fuss when Yoshi-P is making what I see as stupid decisions.

Changing class names would be a waste of time. I don't care if it wastes 1 hour or 300 hours - I would rather that hour be spent making this game marketable.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#379 Feb 23 2011 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
It's not going to benefit the game, so why should we not be against it (unless you have a personal preference)? "It's his vision man" simply won't cut it. Not anymore.

This kind of worshipping really does upset me. He can do anything he wants, he's the Yoshi-P. To **** with the game itself.


Olorinus the Vile wrote:
The point is time used to do changes which have no discernible impact on the quality of the game is time wasted. Do you really think that anyone who uninstalled this game did so because we had conjurers, and no whitemages? I mean, first of all - the classes were on the website before even open beta - so that wasn't something unexpected. Anyone who bought the game bought it knowing we had MRD and GLA not WAR and PLD.


So now we're not upset about the sweeping changes, but that Yoshida is making changes that aren't guaranteed to bring back players?

Flip flop much?

Also, last I checked, one of the gripes about this game was that there's very little that's Final Fantasy about it. Other than the useless chocobo stables and the occasional familiar monster, it's true.
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#380 Feb 23 2011 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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So now we're not upset about the sweeping changes, but that Yoshida is making changes that aren't guaranteed to bring back players?


Changes that won't benefit the game in the big picture of things. Yes, I don't see why we shouldn't be upset about that.

Your Yoshida white-knighting is becoming very hilarious. What has the man done to deserve it?

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Also, last I checked, one of the gripes about this game was that there's very little that's Final Fantasy about it.


Yes yes, just like there's very little Final Fantasy about FFVI, FFVII, FFVIII, FFX, FFXII and FFXIII. Other than the Chocobos and familiar monsters, true. You forgot the crystals though. I mean how can it be called Final Fantasy if the unique jobs are not there (that weren't even around after FF6 aside from 11 and only iconically in 9 and 10)??

Final Fantasy is about change. Always has been, always will be. Whether that change comes through different art style, setting, gameplay mechanics and/or story is up for debate, but change makes the franchise what it is. However, usually the games are polished enough, something that this game lacks. No wonder it feels like something is missing.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 11:13pm by Hyanmen
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#381 Feb 23 2011 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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TheRealDestian wrote:

So now we're not upset about the sweeping changes, but that Yoshida is making changes that aren't guaranteed to bring back players?


You can rate me down and misrepresent me all you want, but my single concern, expressed many times throughout this thread, has been that they are wasting the precious little time they have to save this game making changes that will either be worse than what we have, are pointless, and/or won't bring back players.

That applies to small changes and large ones.

I think if you actually read what I said instead of misconstruing it, you would see that.

It is less about "what I want" and more about my confidence in the direction we are going. Of course I am also concerned that the changes they make will make the game less fun for me - in which case, why would I care if they save it? It makes very little difference to me whether a game I don't enjoy playing is online or not.

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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#382 Feb 23 2011 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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TheFirst109 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
So i just came back from winning Tol Barad in an epic back and forth for 25 minutes, what have you guys been doing ? Still killing coblyns and dodos 6 months after release ? Or are you guys crafting gear to kill the mobs you just killed w/o crafted gear ? My my some of you guy's have the patience of Saints!





Out of all the things to do in WoW to make FFXIV look bad, you come in with your Tol Barad victory? Really? Talk about a waste of time...

What did you get like 180 honor for winning that fight? And it took you 25 mins to do so? Fail so hard.


The obvious point you failed to notice was that it was fun, entertaining, and felt replayable.


Touche
#383 Feb 23 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Excellent
TheRealDestian wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Either way we should not justify every substantial change Yoshida is about to make with this reasoning. Because it's just as untrue. They shouldn't change features substantially without proper reason for it. Nobody(okay, me at least) is saying that they can get by with only tweaks. But I think they could direct their substantial changes better than they have so far.


85% of the players who cared enough to take the poll (these are the players who would presumably come back with changes made) said that they would welcome sweeping, massive changes to the game.

What more does Yoshida need? The clouds to part and god himself to reach his mighty hand down and give Yoshida a thumbs up of approval in his plan?


Screenshot


Bam!
#384 Feb 23 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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435 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Your Yoshida white-knighting is becoming very hilarious. What has the man done to deserve it?


So far? Fixed basic bugs and outlined a plan to bring the game back to life, which is more than Tanaka did.

I'm willing to give him a chance with the changes, and that includes things like making the game feel more FF like.

So you're no longer against sweeping changes but are content with those and have narrowed your nitpick to being fussy about the little things?

Huh?
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#385 Feb 23 2011 at 2:26 PM Rating: Decent
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435 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Of course I am also concerned that the changes they make will make the game less fun for me - in which case, why would I care if they save it? It makes very little difference to me whether a game I don't enjoy playing is online or not.


Fair enough. At least you can cop to that. You're still whining over basically nothing, though.

The game needs a great deal of reshaping, and that includes atmospheric periphery things that don't seem to add to the gameplay but ultimately do help enrich the game world.

After seeing what happened to the last director, I don't think Yoshida is going to put changes like that ahead of the sweeping changes the game needs.

Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:


Screenshot


Bam!


You, sir, have won the internet.

Looks like Yoshi-P is good to GO!

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 3:28pm by TheRealDestian
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#386 Feb 23 2011 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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3,416 posts
Quote:
So far? Fixed basic bugs and outlined a plan to bring the game back to life, which is more than Tanaka did.


Well, considering that's exactly what Tanaka did... (and he had more in store for us than what Yoshida can ever come up with before March ends). Yoshida has posted a slightly hard-to-understand table and made a few fixes and adjustments in two months timeframe, so go him. To compare, around this time we got the November patch after the release of the game. He has some work to do to catch up. Before he does, being a zealot makes not much sense.

Well yes, he uses smilies in his letters. The game is saved.

Quote:
I'm willing to give him a chance with the changes, and that includes things like making the game feel more FF like.


Fool me once, shame on you...... if you fool me you can't get fooled again.
-Bush

Quote:
So you're no longer against sweeping changes but are content with those and have narrowed your nitpick to being fussy about the little things?

Huh?


Well now where did this come from? The longer we go on the more hostile you seem to get.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#387 Feb 23 2011 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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2,202 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Your Yoshida white-knighting is becoming very hilarious. What has the man done to deserve it?


So far? Fixed basic bugs and outlined a plan to bring the game back to life, which is more than Tanaka did.

I'm willing to give him a chance with the changes, and that includes things like making the game feel more FF like.

So you're no longer against sweeping changes but are content with those and have narrowed your nitpick to being fussy about the little things?

Huh?


All the changes and bug fixing was UNDER TANAKA :) Feel stupid yet ?
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MUTED
#388 Feb 23 2011 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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3,178 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
The point is time used to do changes which have no discernible impact on the quality of the game is time wasted. Do you really think that anyone who uninstalled this game did so because we had conjurers, and no whitemages? I mean, first of all - the classes were on the website before even open beta - so that wasn't something unexpected. Anyone who bought the game bought it knowing we had MRD and GLA not WAR and PLD.

If a change won't bring back a single customer, wastes developer time, forces them to waste creative team time reworking the lore, etc. It is a dumb thing to spend resources on.

I know you're just going to say I am selfish and don't want to save the game or some other completely ridiculous and untrue thing - but this whole thread is about the fact that I do want to save the game, and part of doing so is making a fuss when Yoshi-P is making what I see as stupid decisions.

Changing class names would be a waste of time. I don't care if it wastes 1 hour or 300 hours - I would rather that hour be spent making this game marketable.


I see exactly what you mean. Whoever is rating you down is just being obstinate. I agree that real problems are being overlooked while time is spent on things that are acceptable.

Improve on acceptable later. Fix broken now.

Trying to get a concensus on which problems are most important, or which additions are most likely to intice greater interest is impossible. I'm starting to think that the poll itself only underlines the differing opinions in the playerbase.

If they would just release some new content as promised we would have something else to talk about.
#389 Feb 23 2011 at 2:37 PM Rating: Default
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291 posts
Quote:
He's also at the helm of a sinking ship where his best bet to succeed is to fall back on proven concepts. Gambling on innovation is something a developer can afford to do pre-launch. SE did just that. We know the outcome. Now is not the time to be gambling. Now is the time to be fixing. You can deny all you like.


How is this entire blurb not your personal opinion?

Here let me write the same blurb with my point of view. We can disagree, but it's just opinions. There's no fact or evidence of fact in anything you're saying. Here I go.

"He's also at the helm of a sinking ship where his best bet to succeed is to take everything that makes the game unique and interesting and get them up to "finished product" standards. Gambling on changing entire systems is something a developer can afford to do pre-launch. SE didn't bother to do that. Instead they gambled on releasing an unfinished game they planned to finish while we paid for it and we know the outcome. Now is not the time to be gambling. Now is the time to be fixing. You can deny all you like."

We can all disagree about what they "should" do. That's fine. I don't disagree with your right to think they should do [what you think will be better]. I just don't understand how you're all passing it off as facts that it will succeed or that it would be any better than just making the game a finished product (as intended).

The game failed because it was not finished. It didn't fail because the battle is unappealing or there isn't an Auction House. It failed because the battle didn't really work well due to UI & latency (plus it wasn't what they promised it would be) and the Retainer system didn't provide any method of selling or buying items without hours upon hours of searching. If it had functioned as well as an Auction House there would have been considerably less complaining (like there is now - and it's still not quite there yet). It didn't fail because it was "too different." It failed because different wasn't functional.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 3:38pm by Kirutaru
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Battle Mage Kiru
#390 Feb 23 2011 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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2,202 posts
Verecund wrote:
TheFirst109 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
So i just came back from winning Tol Barad in an epic back and forth for 25 minutes, what have you guys been doing ? Still killing coblyns and dodos 6 months after release ? Or are you guys crafting gear to kill the mobs you just killed w/o crafted gear ? My my some of you guy's have the patience of Saints!





Out of all the things to do in WoW to make FFXIV look bad, you come in with your Tol Barad victory? Really? Talk about a waste of time...

What did you get like 180 honor for winning that fight? And it took you 25 mins to do so? Fail so hard.


The obvious point you failed to notice was that it was fun, entertaining, and felt replayable.


Touche


Besides kicking the alliance ***, lets see, i got 300 honor, and killed argaloth, yeah totally fail.

But then again considering what i could be doing in FFXIV...... Nah there is nothing to do in FFXIV XD!
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MUTED
#391 Feb 23 2011 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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3,416 posts
GW2 is the example of game that changed the mechanics and polished the game enough to make the new mechanics functional enough. The difference between GW2 and XIV is that both started development roughly at the same time, and GW2 is still in development as it should be while Tanaka wanted to turn the game profitable before the next fiscal year.

Did they try different and new things? That's not the problem. Did they release the game too soon? I guess that might be the problem, honestly speaking.

Quote:
The game failed because it was not finished. It didn't fail because the battle is unappealing or there isn't an Auction House. It failed because the battle didn't really work well due to UI & latency (plus it wasn't what they promised it would be) and the Retainer system didn't provide any method of selling or buying items without hours upon hours of searching. If it had functioned as well as an Auction House there would have been considerably less complaining (like there is now - and it's still not quite there yet). It didn't fail because it was "too different." It failed because different wasn't functional.


Ohh I love this.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#392 Feb 23 2011 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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291 posts
Quote:
The issue with using SWG as an example of what could go wrong is that SWG was, prior to the NGE, a reasonably successful game. FFXIV, meanwhile, has never been successful; ergo, a NGE update isn't going to make things any worse for them.


This is the 2nd time I've seen this and it doesn't follow rational thinking.

Quote:
Successful + NGE = FAIL

Therefore

Unsuccessful + NGE = WIN


There's absolutely no reason to believe that.
I'll give you that "Unsuccessful + NGE" is at best "Unknown" but no possible way to know if it will succeed, and more likely (based on historical evidence) it will continue to fail.

This is just as big (if not bigger) of a "gamble" than making the game what it was supposed to be and hoping it's good enough, rather than making a new game on the fly. That's another huge difference, too. NGE just got implemented in a single day - like an expansion - and we're (some of us) actually enjoying the game and watching it be picked apart piece by piece.

As I said - taking the game down to make a brand new one and re-launching it a year down the road sounds like a BETTER idea to me than making a new game while people who like [the current game] are testing it for them. That is just exploiting their fanbase - bringing us back to "abusing & pushing out" players who actually like & promote XIV.
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Battle Mage Kiru
#393 Feb 23 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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435 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Well, considering that's exactly what Tanaka did... (and he had more in store for us than what Yoshida can ever come up with before March ends). Yoshida has posted a slightly hard-to-understand table and made a few fixes and adjustments in two months timeframe, so go him. To compare, around this time we got the November patch after the release of the game. He has some work to do to catch up. Before he does, being a zealot makes not much sense.


Tanaka is the reason the game is in the state it is now to start with. Had he not shipped it like this, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Quote:
Fool me once, shame on you...... if you fool me you can't get fooled again.
-Bush


So basically, you have no faith in anything

Quote:
Well now where did this come from? The longer we go on the more hostile you seem to get.


The more confused I get.

Here, let me handle this simply:

1. If your aim is to resist the sweeping changes to the game, then you're advocating killing it (not that anyone is listening to you, but still).

2. If your aim is to nitpick the small changes, then stop whining over nothing (again, no one is listening and you're just spamming up the forum for nothing).

Happy now?
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#394 Feb 23 2011 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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291 posts
Quote:
So now we're not upset about the sweeping changes, but that Yoshida is making changes that aren't guaranteed to bring back players?


You are the one who accused us of not wanting change.

We corrected you several times.

Now you are coming to realize we simply don't want change for the sake of change, or changes to things that won't happen quickly and serve no benefit to the game. We do want change. We want the game to be better. We want all kinds of things to function better and be more streamlined. Even a few things would be better if they were simply removed or replaced, but among them is not (for example) the "auto-attack" or "jump."

Someday (maybe when you're older or take a statistics class?) you'll come to realize that Polls are tremendously inaccurate for hundreds of reasons. Among these things is that your "empirical evidence" is from before Patch 1.15a/b so with every update what people may answer today may not reflect what they answered in January (before Yoshida even gave us an outline). They certainly aren't the end-all of every decision. They simply to get an idea of what people THINK THEY WANT.

There's still the question of whether they really want it or if what they want will actually help the make something better or make it more convoluted or diluted.
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Battle Mage Kiru
#395 Feb 23 2011 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
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2,202 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Well, considering that's exactly what Tanaka did... (and he had more in store for us than what Yoshida can ever come up with before March ends). Yoshida has posted a slightly hard-to-understand table and made a few fixes and adjustments in two months timeframe, so go him. To compare, around this time we got the November patch after the release of the game. He has some work to do to catch up. Before he does, being a zealot makes not much sense.


Tanaka is the reason the game is in the state it is now to start with. Had he not shipped it like this, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Quote:
Fool me once, shame on you...... if you fool me you can't get fooled again.
-Bush


So basically, you have no faith in anything

Quote:
Well now where did this come from? The longer we go on the more hostile you seem to get.


The more confused I get.

Here, let me handle this simply:

1. If your aim is to resist the sweeping changes to the game, then you're advocating killing it (not that anyone is listening to you, but still).

2. If your aim is to nitpick the small changes, then stop whining over nothing (again, no one is listening and you're just spamming up the forum for nothing).

Happy now?


Tanaka has no say on when the game ships or not, if wada ways it ships tomorrow, it will ship tomorrow, the faults of the game in large, is not on one person, but SE late design philosophy: Looks before content :)
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MUTED
#396 Feb 23 2011 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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2,202 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
Quote:
The issue with using SWG as an example of what could go wrong is that SWG was, prior to the NGE, a reasonably successful game. FFXIV, meanwhile, has never been successful; ergo, a NGE update isn't going to make things any worse for them.


This is the 2nd time I've seen this and it doesn't follow rational thinking.

Quote:
Successful + NGE = FAIL

Therefore

Unsuccessful + NGE = WIN


There's absolutely no reason to believe that.
I'll give you that "Unsuccessful + NGE" is at best "Unknown" but no possible way to know if it will succeed, and more likely (based on historical evidence) it will continue to fail.

This is just as big (if not bigger) of a "gamble" than making the game what it was supposed to be and hoping it's good enough, rather than making a new game on the fly. That's another huge difference, too. NGE just got implemented in a single day - like an expansion - and we're (some of us) actually enjoying the game and watching it be picked apart piece by piece.

As I said - taking the game down to make a brand new one and re-launching it a year down the road sounds like a BETTER idea to me than making a new game while people who like [the current game] are testing it for them. That is just exploiting their fanbase - bringing us back to "abusing & pushing out" players who actually like & promote XIV.



The current player base is irrelevant in the grand schemes of things, if SE does not get another player and only stay's with what they have right now, the game is dead, is that simple, the people playing now, have no say in the future of this game, because right now, the game has no future, no hope, nothing, IS DEAD!!!!

An NGE done properly COULD save it :) Again the only reason why NGE sunk SWG was because before it, it had a healthy population, and it was a successful MMO, and then they decided to move away from what worked and go in a different direction just for KICKS!! FFXIV is the total opposite, from start they wanted to be different just to be different, with no relevance if it worked or not, and the end result is what you guys know as the biggest flop in recent MMO History :)

Why would anybody want SE to keep going on that path ? It's been HALF A YEAR, and nothing has changed, NOTHING! There is no content, the battle system is still a joke, the bazaar is still a mediocre system compared to an AH, and they still dont know if they wanna go for the hardcore crowd or the casual one with their SP changes, this is not a SE that knows what they are doing, this is a SE that is trying to save a a bleeding game by applying band aids fixes, where serious surgery is needed <.<
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MUTED
#397 Feb 23 2011 at 3:30 PM Rating: Decent
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3,416 posts
Quote:
Tanaka is the reason the game is in the state it is now to start with. Had he not shipped it like this, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.


Yes, and you want Yoshida to keep up this same formula of success! It's his vision so he can do whatever he wants, you know. Even though it's blatantly not beneficial for this game, it's his vision.

Quote:
So basically, you have no faith in anything


So basically, I am not going to be fine with Yoshida doing whatever he wants just because it's his vision. Didn't work last time, won't work now.

Quote:
Here, let me handle this simply:

1. If your aim is to resist the sweeping changes to the game, then you're advocating killing it (not that anyone is listening to you, but still).

2. If your aim is to nitpick the small changes, then stop whining over nothing (again, no one is listening and you're just spamming up the forum for nothing).

Happy now?


Yes, you are confused.

How many times have I pointed out that I am not against sweeping changes to the game, I am only against sweeping changes that do not benefit the game at all. 4th time, 5th time I say this? I want them to use their limited resources to the best of their ability (whether that has to do with sweeping changes or small changes), this does not suddenly translate to killing the game. Instead of changing class names they could be fleshing out the existing classes even further- that sure does sound like a plan to kill this game indeed! How dare I.

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 12:34am by Hyanmen
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#398 Feb 23 2011 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
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291 posts
Quote:
The current player base is irrelevant in the grand schemes of things,


If this is true (and you don't know it is) then this is what upsets us! You're talking about me! You're saying SE doesn't care about me. I've played ever FF since I was 7 years old. I imported 3 & 5! I majored in Japanese! Holy Christ - if I don't matter, what have I been doing the last 30 years?!

Anyway joking/drama aside, SE certainly making me feel like they don't care about me. People who actually like their game are being used to test new ideas rather than SE giving us a pat on the back and telling us "don't worry. We'll take care of our faithful."

Trust me. I know SE don't care about me, anymore. They made that clear with FF13.

I still see this as a flaw in their plan. As was said "Final Fantasy" is a niche and the harder they strive to make it more mainstream the harder they fail. Can we all agree that FF13 and FF14 as "mainstream" attempts are failures? They're just ******* off their fans as they try desperately to gain new (larger group) of fans.

This is what we don't like (as fans).


Quote:
if SE does not get another player and only stay's with what they have right now, the game is dead, is that simple, the people playing now, have no say in the future of this game, because right now, the game has no future, no hope, nothing, IS DEAD!!!!


You don't know this. There's no proof. Even if it is true, though, maybe if they stopped squandering resources making pieces of crap and started making Final Fantasy games that are true to their roots - they would gain "another player" meaning all the niche players they ****** off who went back to play XI.

There's many ways to gain players. Don't pretend there's only one.

-----

Aside: Ostia I'm rating up most of your posts, though. I feel like you need a high-five for actually having posts that are well thought out and not telling me how many people are subscribed to WoW. :)

Rinsui, too, is refreshing to see write in paragraphs rather than 1-2 lines of sarcasm (Though I usually laugh at the 1-2 lines of sarcasm). It's nice to see you guys actually voice real opinions - even when we don't exactly agree.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 4:46pm by Kirutaru
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Battle Mage Kiru
#399 Feb 23 2011 at 3:51 PM Rating: Default
17 posts
Ostia wrote:
Verecund wrote:
TheFirst109 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
So i just came back from winning Tol Barad in an epic back and forth for 25 minutes, what have you guys been doing ? Still killing coblyns and dodos 6 months after release ? Or are you guys crafting gear to kill the mobs you just killed w/o crafted gear ? My my some of you guy's have the patience of Saints!





Out of all the things to do in WoW to make FFXIV look bad, you come in with your Tol Barad victory? Really? Talk about a waste of time...

What did you get like 180 honor for winning that fight? And it took you 25 mins to do so? Fail so hard.


The obvious point you failed to notice was that it was fun, entertaining, and felt replayable.


Touche


Besides kicking the alliance ***, lets see, i got 300 honor, and killed argaloth, yeah totally fail.

But then again considering what i could be doing in FFXIV...... Nah there is nothing to do in FFXIV XD!


Meh, some people still find doing guild leves or behests fun. That doesn't mean either is right or wrong one way or another which is fun or not.

You chose to blatantly bash FFXIV for something you see as repititious and extremely boring, and while im inclined to agree with you about that fact, the event in WoW you chose to highlight as your fun experience is notorious for having been one of the worst implementations of PvP in any game ever, and it only took them over 6 years to still fail at creating that scenario (even after having practice with Wintergrasp). They still haven't successfully balanced Tol Barad fully, one would think they would just stop trying to create an open zone pvp area.

WoW has much more to offer than the boring and horribly implemented TB, which is why I was wondering why you would ever choose that. You could have at least highlighted the fact that the instances they've come out with in this xpac are some of the best.
#400 Feb 23 2011 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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3,416 posts
Quote:
Can we all agree that FF13 and FF14 as "mainstream" attempts are failures?


XIV's failure has nothing to do with "being mainstream". It has all to do with releasing the game too early. FF13 was hardly a failure.

It does make sense that the fans would say something like this, though.. Hm. I'm glad I'm not Wada.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#401 Feb 23 2011 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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291 posts
Not to mention - if you really want things to do in XIV, you should not be backing or advocating coming up with an entirely new battle system because how can you make content if you don't have a battle system for it?

I also want content. Very, very badly. I was patient up until Patch 1.15b. Now, I'm not patient anymore. I no longer say things like "Don't worry. YoshiP will take care of us. He knows what he's doing." Now, I'm a lot more skeptical. He may know what he's doing, but he may not. Making it easy-mode to get to R50 then not following up with substantial content for people to distract themselves with - is evidence he doesn't know what he's doing.

We'll see how "substantial" the new content is when it comes.

I'd prefer a huge content update than a huge battle re-work. Maybe I should start a new thread about it. Wouldn't want to derail this one.

Oh wait...
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Battle Mage Kiru
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