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Horizontal vs. Vertical Leveling BalanceFollow

#1 Feb 21 2011 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I give SE a load of credit for this idea of allowing the players who have less time to play, to be level playing field with more hardcore player. However, like most people who are first to introduce something new and innovative, they are ridiculed and criticized for it. Not only because the general public isn't conditioned to the idea, but because the application and execution are immature and unrefined. There's almost no way to know what the end result will be so it cannot be planned for. So I suggest instead of becoming frustrated with the battle/armory system, accept that it isn't perfect and it is near impossible(at the very least) to release it as such. It will save energy and combat the negativity surrounding the game. So kudos to all of you who realize the potential behind this system, and are looking to improve it.

I'm not trying to excuse SE for the abysmal condition the game was released in. I'm trying to communicate the difficulties behind certain aspects of the XIV that deserve cultivation, not hatred.

More so concerning the title of this thread, I was wondering if anybody is thinking along the same lines I am for a better balance to horizontal/vertical progression. As it stands, 95% of any skill you get with any job every 2 or so ranks, you can use on every other class. I was thinking that all of the skills that we currently have could become class exclusive. While we could have more "monumental" or consequential abilities/skills for every job at universal intervals. What this mean is that every 15, 20, or 25 ranks per class, you would get an ability that that is much more dynamic and battle-changing than "regular" skills. These more intense abilities could be used on all jobs without restriction.

I feel this would give more individuality to classes while retaining the horizontal growth on a more balanced scale, and the basis for the armory system.

So do you think the current system is already adequately balanced and just needs some work? Or would you rather have a revision? And would suggestion be along the lines of what your looking for, or would you think it should be more or less extreme?
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#2 Feb 21 2011 at 2:12 PM Rating: Good
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Just a side note: I'm not trying to convey or push my ideas. I'm looking to get a feeling and outlook concerning peoples attitudes, opinions, and views on this specific subject.
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#3 Feb 21 2011 at 2:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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There's almost no way to know what the end result will be so it cannot be planned for.

If you meant this as a defense for how things turned out, it falls rather flat. I would disagree that they couldn't have seen the end result coming; but, even if that's true, it's not a very good idea to base the fundamental game mechanics of such a large project on results that "cannot be planned for."

I appreciate what SE was trying to do, but sometimes it seems like they were so determined to be different from FFXI that they forgot everything they learned. It's not that people didn't enjoy well-defined roles -- it's that they didn't want to be shackled to them.

*edit* But, to be clear, I don't disagree with most of what you're saying. Some class exclusivity is necessary to make class distinctions feel relevant.

I actually think SE's failing on the class system is that they didn't go far ENOUGH. If you really want things to be flexible to the point that job distinctions blur meaningfully, then why have job distinctions? Let anyone set any skill, and your job's "name" can be determined by the skills you set. Maybe you get some bonuses for equipping enough themed skills to get a specific job title, but flexibility on the scale FFIV aims for needs to come BEFORE the job, not after it, or the job itself becomes almost meaningless.

Edited, Feb 21st 2011 3:36pm by Caesura
#4 Feb 21 2011 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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AtryxEtair wrote:
I'm not trying to excuse SE for the abysmal condition the game was released in. I'm trying to communicate the difficulties behind certain aspects of the XIV that deserve cultivation, not hatred.


It wasn't a defense, I was merely trying to get any readers to realize that lack of tolerance for the system because it isn't perfect isn't reasonable. I'm only trying to get a feel or tone of the community pertaining to specific improvements.

Caesura wrote:
I actually think SE's failing on the class system is that they didn't go far ENOUGH. If you really want things to be flexible to the point that job distinctions blur meaningfully, then why have job distinctions? Let anyone set any skill, and your job's "name" can be determined by the skills you set. Maybe you get some bonuses for equipping enough themed skills to get a specific job title, but flexibility on the scale FFIV aims for needs to come BEFORE the job, not after it, or the job itself becomes almost meaningless.


And in my opinion complete freedom like you are suggesting is ideal. But think about it from a dev teams perspective. How hard would that system be to balance? It was a constant work in progress balancing jobs in FFXI, and that system had many more "controls" such as delay, and less variables. So while I would much prefer your suggestion, I wonder how much more time and manpower that would require, and if it is feasible.

Edited, Feb 21st 2011 3:51pm by AtryxEtair
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#5 Feb 21 2011 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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I was merely trying to get any readers to realize that lack of tolerance for the system because it isn't perfect isn't reasonable.

This is a straw man. No-one's complaining that the system isn't perfect; they're complaining that the system is flawed. It's not really-great-and-inches-from-being-perfect. It's meaningfully flawed.

And, no one's saying that the system is irreparably broken and universally un-fun, either (to avoid the other extreme that people argue against in a vacuum). There's plenty to enjoy now, and there were even some things to enjoy at launch.

I don't think anyone hoped for perfection. They just wanted SE to sensibly build on what it learned from running another MMO for almost a decade.
#6 Feb 21 2011 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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I''m not meaning to build a case against people. I'm not arguing a point so technically I couldn't have introduced a straw man but i see what you're getting at. I wasn't saying that everyone expected it to be perfect and they exploded when it wasn't. I'm not saying it's even close to perfect. I know that it is seriously flawed, but has potential.

I'm not here to argue opinions or push my ideas and put them ahead of others. I'm only here trying to understand the tone of the community concerning this matter and gathering information. I have stated that multiple times now. I thank you for you input earlier, but other than that you are just attacking my attempt to gather information.

I admit that I defended the system, and that may have come off as an attack on the people who are avidly against it. And if you say that most people don't hate it and aren't asking for a revamp, that is in an argument for another time and another thread. There are plenty of those available for you.

But it seems no one is currently interested. So I'll just have to try another time putting more thought into it so it doesn't come off as trying to start an argument.

Edited, Feb 21st 2011 4:55pm by AtryxEtair
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#7 Feb 21 2011 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Honestly, I hate the idea. Absolutely hate it.

Now I'm sure most of us have seen this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abE09-tqhoM

Now for the reality of it:

I can't stand that the game is telling me, the player, when to stop playing. I have a static that meets every week. We leve link and use aspect. By the end of two hours or so, we're already in surplus. Thank's SE. That's exactly what I want from my MMO... to pay monthly for something that you force me to play only one night of the week. (Granted, it's free to play now. But if they didn't remove this "super innovative feature," I would quit in a heartbeat). But being completely serious: If I am paying for a month's worth of playtime, how dare you limit my game progression to two hours, as that is all it takes for a well formed group to get my character back into fatigue.

Honestly... I wanted to think that this would be as good of an idea as it sounds. But due to the lack of class definition as well as the lack of use for cross-classing some skills, it simply isn't nearly as "innovative" as it is advertised. I still love that the video openly admits that this is just another form of time sink.

But honestly, is this okay? I know there are some people who just power through it, and have gotten to max rank already. But I feel that the amount of SP needed to get to the next rank during say... the 30's, is already a significant barrier. I don't like the fact that I haven't even leveled, and I'm already back at being fatigued. It just feels like a major slap on the wrist for wanting to actually level a job.

Now I'm sure there are some people that would say, "Well why don't you level another class?" Well, that would be fine, except that I'm really not all that interested in leveling another job. Isn't that the player's choice? I don't want to carry around three sets of gear at all times... With no bank, that's exactly what I'd have to do. Unless I want to be tanking in my lovely robes, or trying to pronounce ancient magic through my face-plate... Either way, it's a lot of stuff to carry around that I won't really be using too much. Even then, the physical level / point allotment system is not as flexible as it claims to be. If one started the game as say... a THM. Their next job will most likely be a CON. After gaining all of those levels, they probably put points into INT/MND/PIE. Well, now that both jobs are being fatigued, there isn't much to level.... Maybe Alchemy? Something that benefits from the stats? But if they wanted to level a DoW class, and be effective, they have to reset their points. Unfortunately, they don't get all their points back, so their now a sort of mediocre DoW that has far more INT than a meat-shield would ever really need. When the week resets, and they want to go back to playing their THM, they now have to live with the fact that they aren't going to be an optimal mage, because they can't get rid of all of the points in STR/DEX/VIT (maybe keep the VIT, really). So yeah... this is really innovative. Thanks SE, I love being crappy at all jobs, or forced to level two very slowly. It's fantastic. Even when cross-classing my skills from CON to my THM, all of my buffs are still lower than if a real CON casted them... Considering I have a CON in my static, there is almost no reason to cross-class anyway. If anything, the CON gets more out of having THM leveled for Siphon MP.

I can understand why they did it. FFXI's biggest problem was how long it took to do anything. You couldn't solo, (back in the day), and groups were pretty difficult to come by if you wanted to play a non-mainstreamed class, or even a mainstream DD (as most of the player base does. Seriously, you will never see a Bard looking for a group. But I'm a moron). So I understand that from a developer's standpoint, they wanted to fix the things that their previous product had problems with. Being that FFXI required players to put in a lot of time, the game didn't have so many "casual" players that you see in Blizzard titles.... *Cough*

Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that a player wants to play. And a game is meant to be played. Therefore, a player should play the game. But the game just told/semi-forced the player to stop playing. So what am I paying for? (Again, I know it's free now. But when the game was released, and intended to be payed for, this lovely little "feature" was included).

I don't know.... Again, it really comes back to the fact that I'm playing the game to progress through it, and have fun. Having these invisible brick walls is really frustrating, and I wish that they'd remove this "feature." This is a design flaw. Like 80% of the game's "features," this is simply a flaw. I imagine it sounded good one day over coffee, as far as how to keep players playing longer... or how to make the game more appealing to people that didn't plan to play as much. But I think this feature definitely is more in SE's interest rather than the players'.

Here is the not-so-funny part about this: The time sinks are made to keep players playing longer. Most players would probably stick around after they reached cap if there was enough stuff to do in the game.

I mean, in FFXI, once I hit 75, I still had a great time doing missions / just walking around killing things in strange new areas, getting money for gear, . End-game content was enough to keep me playing, never mind just how much fun the game was over-all. But right now, XIV is not that much fun... They seriously lost something; that little spark that made the game so enjoyable. With the lack of will to keep playing, (though I will in the hopes that XIV gets its **** together), I just feel like the restrictions that the game places on players is far too much. (Surplus / Gear Deterioration / Anima / Guardian Favor). I mean, who at SE said, "Hey, you know what players are really going to love? All of these hurdles that take forever, with absolutely no reward for even doing it! We'll make millions!"

I apologize for the rant. But this is something I feel strongly about. I still can't wrap my head around why/how FFXIV could have been such a let down. SE had an almost-perfect, (my opinion, I know it isn't for everyone), MMO in XI. How can a company with so much prestige and respect allow something like this to happen? This is beyond humiliating for them.... But with time and patience, maybe we'll get out of this mess. I'm willing to at least stick around until they start asking for money. If things aren't better, (and I mean a lot better, because just fixing SP gain made the game at least playable... though it still is in pretty bad shape), then I'll leave.

I'll feel bad about it. Not for abandoning SE, or leaving my friends. I don't want to pay money for a game that is as poorly designed as this. But I will feel bad for what this game could have been.

It might still make it. But we'll just have to wait and see.

So what do you guys think? I'm not the only one that gets upset when I stop getting decent SP right? Anyone else getting a little annoyed with it?
#8 Feb 21 2011 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Honestly, I hate the idea. Absolutely hate it.

Now I'm sure most of us have seen this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abE09-tqhoM

Now for the reality of it:

I can't stand that the game is telling me, the player, when to stop playing. I have a static that meets every week. We leve link and use aspect. By the end of two hours or so, we're already in surplus. Thank's SE. That's exactly what I want from my MMO... to pay monthly for something that you force me to play only one night of the week. (Granted, it's free to play now. But if they didn't remove this "super innovative feature," I would quit in a heartbeat). But being completely serious: If I am paying for a month's worth of playtime, how dare you limit my game progression to two hours, as that is all it takes for a well formed group to get my character back into fatigue.

Honestly... I wanted to think that this would be as good of an idea as it sounds. But due to the lack of class definition as well as the lack of use for cross-classing some skills, it simply isn't nearly as "innovative" as it is advertised. I still love that the video openly admits that this is just another form of time sink.

But honestly, is this okay? I know there are some people who just power through it, and have gotten to max rank already. But I feel that the amount of SP needed to get to the next rank during say... the 30's, is already a significant barrier. I don't like the fact that I haven't even leveled, and I'm already back at being fatigued. It just feels like a major slap on the wrist for wanting to actually level a job.

Now I'm sure there are some people that would say, "Well why don't you level another class?" Well, that would be fine, except that I'm really not all that interested in leveling another job. Isn't that the player's choice? I don't want to carry around three sets of gear at all times... With no bank, that's exactly what I'd have to do. Unless I want to be tanking in my lovely robes, or trying to pronounce ancient magic through my face-plate... Either way, it's a lot of stuff to carry around that I won't really be using too much. Even then, the physical level / point allotment system is not as flexible as it claims to be. If one started the game as say... a THM. Their next job will most likely be a CON. After gaining all of those levels, they probably put points into INT/MND/PIE. Well, now that both jobs are being fatigued, there isn't much to level.... Maybe Alchemy? Something that benefits from the stats? But if they wanted to level a DoW class, and be effective, they have to reset their points. Unfortunately, they don't get all their points back, so their now a sort of mediocre DoW that has far more INT than a meat-shield would ever really need. When the week resets, and they want to go back to playing their THM, they now have to live with the fact that they aren't going to be an optimal mage, because they can't get rid of all of the points in STR/DEX/VIT (maybe keep the VIT, really). So yeah... this is really innovative. Thanks SE, I love being crappy at all jobs, or forced to level two very slowly. It's fantastic. Even when cross-classing my skills from CON to my THM, all of my buffs are still lower than if a real CON casted them... Considering I have a CON in my static, there is almost no reason to cross-class anyway. If anything, the CON gets more out of having THM leveled for Siphon MP.

I can understand why they did it. FFXI's biggest problem was how long it took to do anything. You couldn't solo, (back in the day), and groups were pretty difficult to come by if you wanted to play a non-mainstreamed class, or even a mainstream DD (as most of the player base does. Seriously, you will never see a Bard looking for a group. But I'm a moron). So I understand that from a developer's standpoint, they wanted to fix the things that their previous product had problems with. Being that FFXI required players to put in a lot of time, the game didn't have so many "casual" players that you see in Blizzard titles.... *Cough*

Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that a player wants to play. And a game is meant to be played. Therefore, a player should play the game. But the game just told/semi-forced the player to stop playing. So what am I paying for? (Again, I know it's free now. But when the game was released, and intended to be payed for, this lovely little "feature" was included).

I don't know.... Again, it really comes back to the fact that I'm playing the game to progress through it, and have fun. Having these invisible brick walls is really frustrating, and I wish that they'd remove this "feature." This is a design flaw. Like 80% of the game's "features," this is simply a flaw. I imagine it sounded good one day over coffee, as far as how to keep players playing longer... or how to make the game more appealing to people that didn't plan to play as much. But I think this feature definitely is more in SE's interest rather than the players'.

Here is the not-so-funny part about this: The time sinks are made to keep players playing longer. Most players would probably stick around after they reached cap if there was enough stuff to do in the game.

I mean, in FFXI, once I hit 75, I still had a great time doing missions / just walking around killing things in strange new areas, getting money for gear, . End-game content was enough to keep me playing, never mind just how much fun the game was over-all. But right now, XIV is not that much fun... They seriously lost something; that little spark that made the game so enjoyable. With the lack of will to keep playing, (though I will in the hopes that XIV gets its sh*t together), I just feel like the restrictions that the game places on players is far too much. (Surplus / Gear Deterioration / Anima / Guardian Favor). I mean, who at SE said, "Hey, you know what players are really going to love? All of these hurdles that take forever, with absolutely no reward for even doing it! We'll make millions!"

I apologize for the rant. But this is something I feel strongly about. I still can't wrap my head around why/how FFXIV could have been such a let down. SE had an almost-perfect, (my opinion, I know it isn't for everyone), MMO in XI. How can a company with so much prestige and respect allow something like this to happen? This is beyond humiliating for them.... But with time and patience, maybe we'll get out of this mess. I'm willing to at least stick around until they start asking for money. If things aren't better, (and I mean a lot better, because just fixing SP gain made the game at least playable... though it still is in pretty bad shape), then I'll leave.

I'll feel bad about it. Not for abandoning SE, or leaving my friends. I don't want to pay money for a game that is as poorly designed as this. But I will feel bad for what this game could have been.

It might still make it. But we'll just have to wait and see.

So what do you guys think? I'm not the only one that gets upset when I stop getting decent SP right? Anyone else getting a little annoyed with it?


This!!
90% of the people playing this game are at or past this level of frustration with this stupid Horizontal leveling B.S. I for one Will Not Pay to play a game that employs this type of restriction on my fun!
I know people who loved this game drag up and quit because of this stupid system. So S.E. if your looking to really **** off your player base this will get it done.
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#9 Feb 21 2011 at 6:59 PM Rating: Good
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I do know what you speak of Heartflame. The way I look at it is a bit different though. My goal each week is to hit the level cap on my PGL and MDR. I don't go all the way to the 15th tier until I'm getting zero SP because that would take forever so technically I'm not capped, just fatigued. It's 150k the last 60k becoming harder and harder to attain every 10k.

I've personally been to the 12th tier at the most and did want to keep leveling. But the the more times I hit fatigue the more satisfaction I get cause I know I've done all i can that week and there's no pressure. That's just difference in personality though.

I think being able to take advantage of the unattained SP in the classes you don't rank up would help serve multiple styles of play. What I mean is that if you only want to rank up GLD, you could take the caps from other jobs and add them onto the job you're currently leveling. Maybe adding 20-40k to the cap before you hit fatigue. And you could only get the ability to do this if you had leveled to a certain point and completed some quest or stipulation.

I pose a question to you not trying to challenge you but to gain more understanding on your perspective Heart. How is asking for a limit to be removed on how much SP you can gain in a week, different from someone wanting more SP from per mob? It sounds like if someone said the devs are punishing me because the mob is only giving me X amount of exp from any given mob. Both are in place as forms to slow people down. I can see you would like more play time, but I don't see that as an issue when more content is released. Please let me know what your feelings are on this?
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#10 Feb 21 2011 at 7:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Atryx, we meet again. How nice to see you.

As to your question on the difference between removing fatigue vs. raising SP gained from mob, there is one major key difference, and it's what I really feel is that we should all be concerned about:

The fatigue system tells us when to stop.

Your question regarding SP increase is not quite the same. As far as the rate at which I can gain SP hourly is concerned, I'm perfectly content. I don't mind putting in some time and effort to work at something. What I do mind is that even when I put in that effort, I get a road block telling me to stop being a good player.

The simple truth is that this system holds us back from being the best players we can be. It has no practical purpose, other than to deter our attention to a different goal. It's frustrating as a player to have a goal to level my class, and not even get one level before I need to stop. It's frustrating to the most extreme degree.

Again, I understand why they did it. I just want them to admit, (as they have with much of the game), that it was a horrible mistake, and to fix it. This isn't a feature. It's a flaw.
#11 Feb 21 2011 at 8:27 PM Rating: Good
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So you feel the fatigue is holding you back from being better? Isn't being the best player you can be determinant on what you can accomplish within a games given parameters? Such as drop rates, level caps, inventory limits, spawn timers, and so on and so forth? All these things make it harder and make it take longer to increase the abilities and power of your character. The fact that leveling is the only thing to do in the game is really what's holding you back from being the best you can be, is it not? That they are placing an unfamiliar limit on the only main goal in the game. Given, the fatigue system does cause frustration and merits improvement and revision.
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#12 Feb 21 2011 at 9:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fatigue is not hindering my amount of skill as a player. What is frustrating is that SE intended for us to pay monthly subscriptions for a game that takes your choices away. I think that is the real issue.

With cross-classing being a joke at the moment, (like the rest of the game, cool idea, poor execution), there is very little reason to want to play the other classes. Particularly because of their lack of definition. Let's face it, all the DoW/DoM classes play just about the same. I know that we have a few things, like buffs and heals. But let's face it. I honestly don't feel much different playing my THM than I do my PUG. Only reason I'm really sticking with my THM is because of my background of being a healer. But then, spamming sacrifice over and over is a lot like spamming an attack over and over....

But really. Who is SE to tell me what I should be doing while in the game? I paid for it. Shouldn't I be allowed to play whatever class I want, for as long as I am willing to play? The fatigue system discourages me from playing. Because if I finally get into something and start to enjoy it, SE will come in and stop me saying, "Nope. You've actually started to make progress. Go do something else, or log back in next week."

It really is frustrating that I can't do what I paid to do.

Even worse is that I don't play often as is. It bugs me that even with my limited time, I am able to hit fatigue so quickly. I feel like I'm turning on my car, and it crapped out on me before I made it to the end of my driveway.

Horizontally, there is no real incentive to level multiple classes. In fact, I think the only reason, (other than wanting to), is because you can't level your main. What kind of sick joke is that? Cross-classing skills is a bad joke. There might be some call for it in a small party, (say if we didn't have a conj, I should cast protect on everyone as a thm), but in a real scenario where the group had one of each role, (by this I mean a tank, healer/buffer, and DD), then there is no reason to cross-class. A tank or DD shouldn't have a heal on their task bar. That's what the healer is for. (And healing in this game has very little threat as is. I love that I can spam AoE heals on 15 people, but Carbuncle help me if I cast Bio 1). Like wise, a healer might not want to have, say, Raging Strike on their task bar.... If they do, I think they're healing wrong.

Vertically, however, there are a few reasons to level. We get new abilities every two ranks, we get better gear, more HP/MP, and -(whenever they get around to it)- more content would be available. Over all, vertically is the way that most players would want to level.

There is an obvious reason why players should try to attain vertical leveling vs. horizontal. I think this much should be resoundingly evident.

But to make my answer perfectly clear: SE shouldn't be able to tell us what to do. We're the players, playing is what we do. Putting a limit on how much we can play is just bad business. That's for the player to decide.
#13 Feb 21 2011 at 11:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Without going in to why: I hate the current system, and only have a strong dislike of the OP's proposal.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#14 Feb 21 2011 at 11:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Okay, I understand your point of view much better now. Thank you for being patient and explaining it more in depth.

So would you be open to having the ability to expand or negate this aspect of the with future content/personal achievements? Because what I understand is that you want to be able to do as much of what you enjoy doing in the game. Which is leveling one or two jobs(at this point in time) because they are all extremely similar and that doesn't hold your interest.

But would you feel this way in the future if ranking up more than one class becomes more dynamic, advantages, and enjoyable? Because the purpose SE intended was to have people level vertically and horizontally equally. But that doesn't fit everyones play-styles and preferences because it isn't very flexible and there isn't much incentive to rank up more than 2 or 3 DoW/M.

Kachi wrote:
Without going in to why: I hate the current system, and only have a strong dislike of the OP's proposal.


Really? Your feelings have no impact on anyone here but you so don't waste your time posting them. The PURPOSE of this is to explain why. I'm not trying to argue with anyone or say my ideas are the best, I'm looking for input.

And before you say your feelings had an impact on me because I responded then you're wrong, it was due to your ignorance. Read the thread before posting next time please.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 12:15am by AtryxEtair
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#15 Feb 21 2011 at 11:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Really? Your feelings have no impact on anyone here but you so don't waste your time posting them. The PURPOSE of this is to explain why. I'm not trying to argue with anyone or say my ideas are the best, I'm looking for input.

And before you say your feelings had an impact on me because I responded then you're wrong, it was due to your ignorance. Read the thread before posting next time please.


You were looking for input, and I gave it to you. I'm sure you'd like to know why, and I'd be happy to tell you if I hadn't already delineated as much in other threads for the umpteenth time. You know as much as you need to: I don't like either your way or the current way at all.

If there wasn't so much tl;dr, perhaps I would have known more specifically what you wanted, but either way, I post at my leisure, not anyone else's.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#16 Feb 22 2011 at 12:26 AM Rating: Decent
AtryxEtair wrote:
SE intended was to have people level vertically and horizontally equally. ][/i]


Actually if you paid attention to the video, you don't lvl vertically and horizontally equally. The purpose is that if you hit cap vertically, you are able to expand horizontally based on how much you play other jobs.

In essence if you play only to cap of one class you won't expand horizontal at all, while lvling other jobs you being to expand horizontally.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 1:29am by Kaldironthewise
#17 Feb 22 2011 at 12:58 AM Rating: Good
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Kaldironthewise wrote:
AtryxEtair wrote:
SE intended was to have people level vertically and horizontally equally. ][/i]


Actually if you paid attention to the video, you don't lvl vertically and horizontally equally. The purpose is that if you hit cap vertically, you are able to expand horizontally based on how much you play other jobs.

In essence if you play only to cap of one class you won't expand horizontal at all, while lvling other jobs you being to expand horizontally.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 1:29am by Kaldironthewise


I'm sorry that was worded poorly on my part. I was speaking of the distribution and ratio of people leveling only vertically to people leveling vert. and horiz. But instead of that, currently the game is "forcing" all players to level horizontally(under the stipulation that they want to be able to play to rank up more than a few hours a week of course). Which goes against the original principle of the system ironically.


Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 2:02am by AtryxEtair
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#18 Feb 22 2011 at 1:05 AM Rating: Good
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That's an interesting question, Atryx.

Would I be open to such a system if cross-skills were more viable?

Hmm... I can't say that I would be. Although I do want the cross-class skills to be better than they are, (because we simply do not have nearly the flexibility of say, the sub-job system), I don't think making other classes mix better with our main jobs would warrant SE's intrusion of our sense of choice.

It would be very nice if we had a more dynamic system that encouraged leveling the other classes. But I think we need encouragement to do so, rather than discouragement of leveling our main classes. I understand what SE was trying to do, (or at least the way it was advertised), but like any opinionated person, I value my choices. If I want to play my main job, then darn it, I want to level my main job. Having a system that prevents me from playing the game the way I would like to is just a bad idea.

Going back to FFXI, (I know this isn't FFXI, but come on. SE made that one too, so I think it is fair to compare them), the sub-job system was a perfect balance of cross-classing skills. And here is why:

* You could combine any two classes.
* The sub-job class would add a unique twist to how you performed, without making the chosen sub job completely useless as a main job.
* You could choose to stop leveling your main job, and level your sub job, (or sub jobs), at any time you wanted. (Some people might argue that you had to have it at least half of your main, but there are such things as gimps. Although I don't like them in my party, they still have the choice to level their sub jobs or not. Choosing not to meant not gaining the stats and abilities gained from having the sub job leveled).

Now, you might ask, "why just combine two classes? aren't more classes better?" I feel like this sort of restriction is actually warranted, and valuable to game play. Obviously, most players will want to min/max their stats. And the only flaw I found in the sub-job system was the /nin became standard for every. single. class. That's something I'd like SE to avoid.... Mostly for the sake of being creative.

The reason two classes was just fine, is because each sub-job added something unique. There were multiple options for each class. Obviously, some would be more popular than others, (anyone remember butter-sheep?), but the fact remained that if one put in the necessary time and effort, they could mix and match their character to be just about anything they wanted. (Not to open another can of worms, but you also didn't have to worry about your physical level's stats not matching up to your class, and the frustration of wanting to test out a different type of play style while keeping your old ones intact).

One way to fix this would be to reevaluate what classes got which abilities. Sure, we have a lot of them. But I feel like getting weapon skills as abilities isn't really an ability. (Again, I'll admit a bias here. I'm used to XI, and I'm wondering why SE dismembered their old concepts to make this butchered stew...) What was wrong with the old abilities? Most of us are playing this because it is a Final Fantasy title anyway. Give us Berserk, Sneak Attack, Trick Attack... a White mage and a Black mage. Ancient magic spells that aren't immeasurably disappointing....

I think the problem is that SE took some of the jobs from XI, and shuffled their abilities around. We now have both white/black mages stuck together, and red mage is... well, they took everything except gravity and enfeebles away. And even though one might think that kiting would be a great way to kill things, one would be wrong. This is because the battle system makes it so mages must be engaged in combat to cast a spell. We can move, and it won't interrupt casting, but **** it, we have to be locked on and facing the mob.... I'd love to go back to XI's standing still and actually casting the spell. It's the only MMO I've played where I really felt like mages were balanced properly. If we were smart and very careful, we could bring mobs to their knees. But a mage that spammed Fire 2 over and over would die quickly....

Also, would it be too much to ask that we didn't have to go through this cumbersome system of mixing and matching abilities? When I switch from my THM to my PUG, odds are, I don't need Sacrifice 2 Equipped. I'd love for all of my pugilist abilities to be available to me to use, simply from being a pugilist. But because of the Game / UI's design, we have to spend about 5-10 minutes switching gear / evaluating what spells to equip, and in what order. It's just not player friendly. But this kind of goes back to why I liked the sub-job system so much. Each main job was clearly defined, and had a specific role in a group. Adding a sub-job would add a unique twist to how your main job performed. As I leveled Samurai back when Ranger was the "in" thing, (anyone else remember those days?), my main two sub-jobs were /warrior and /thief. Which one I chose would have a major impact to how I played the game. I could be a SATA partner, or I could be performing the SATA myself. That might seem like a small distinction. But my main job was clearly to do damage / skill-chains, (can we just go to the skill chain system already? What's with battle regimen?), so the choice was in how I was going to do damage. In solo situations, (mostly exploration), I might go /white mage for sneak/invisible/deodorant (anyone else missing this aspect of the game?), and go run around in the caves under La Thaine.

The point was that I was able to customize my character with distinct abilities from other classes without turning it into some generic mix of every class. And eventually, that's what would happen with this system. Years down the road, everyone would have every class capped, and we would find a min/max for it. Making us limited to only a few variations of what we would really do. But again, this comes from the lack of class definition.

I'm sorry for the pseudo-rant, but I think this should give you a good idea of why I don't like the fatigue system, or the cross class system as it stands. With classes lacking their definition, we can't "customize" ourselves, because there are only a few abilities worth using. Therefore, it is only worth leveling the classes until they get that ability, (you can get blood bath at rank 8, right?), and continue with your main job.

As the system stands now, there isn't enough difference between the classes. Part of this is the combat system, the other part is the lack of unique / useful abilities. I honestly feel like if we broke down the game to it's core, we could get through just about any encounter with light-strike and cure. All of the other spells and abilities are just... not even toys, really.

So, I have to ask, what do you think of the current system? I honestly detest it. I was excited when they changed SP to being on par with how we gain EXP, (at end of kill vs. skill-up parties). But it seems my excitement is wearing thin now into the mid 30's, when I can't get a level before being fatigued again. You don't seem upset by this, and I'm curious as to why.
#19 Feb 22 2011 at 1:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Unless you force situations on the player where versatility is absolutely vital they'res just no benefit in horizontal leveling. If the AI in each fight is based off a template of tank/heal/DD then specific rolls are always gonna win out. While I agree the classes suffer a bit of an identity crisis making them more fun isn't gonna solve the horizontal issue.

My guess is when they make these changes extra abilities are gonna be the equivalent of FFXI's subjobs. Everyone will have an agreed upon one or two skills that are required depending on the situation. They're 4 player parties seem like a way to take advantage of some of that versatility a bit. The upside is this system is way easier to balance then the subjob system so i can see it becoming much more enjoyable over the course of the games lifespan than the subjob system ever did.

Great topic though, I enjoy posting when i know it'll be received by someone who doesn't require a tl;dr and is committed to getting something out of the forum experience.
#20 Feb 22 2011 at 1:15 AM Rating: Good
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Make most if not all skills cross-class up to rank 30. After rank 30, start implementing more class-specific skills (and higher tiers of the cross-class skills that can still be subbed).

XI jobs from one through 30 weren't anything special and quite homogenized. After 30 they started specializing in whatever theme they had, be it skillchains hate management or something else.

Also through specific class combinations make some class unique skills usable cross-class for that particular class combo ("Paladin" + "White Mage" leveled to 30 = Paladin gets to equip White Mage spell "Holy", WHM gets to equip PLD specific skill "Flash").

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 10:18am by Hyanmen
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#21 Feb 22 2011 at 1:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Finally!!! Some constructive feedback and discussion! Thank you Hyanmen and Ken.

To answer your question Heart:

Heartflame wrote:
So, I have to ask, what do you think of the current system? I honestly detest it. I was excited when they changed SP to being on par with how we gain EXP, (at end of kill vs. skill-up parties). But it seems my excitement is wearing thin now into the mid 30's, when I can't get a level before being fatigued again. You don't seem upset by this, and I'm curious as to why.


I see the current system as unrefined, crude, and frustrating. Even if I am not directly frustrated at it all the time I am aware of how others like you feel about it and its unpopularity. And that alone ultimately affects my enjoyment in the big picture because I will not have fun playing if nobody else is.

On the other hand I see it has potential, and I get a small sense of completion and satisfaction knowing I hit fatigue this week and no more can be expected of me by anyone. Like I can check it off my list for a few days and it won't be hanging over my head. I would like to see a little more flexibility with it however. Like this excerpt from an earlier post:

AtryxEtair wrote:
I think being able to take advantage of the unattained SP in the classes you don't rank up would help serve multiple styles of play. What I mean is that if you only want to rank up GLD, you could take the caps from other jobs and add them onto the job you're currently leveling. Maybe adding 20-40k to the cap before you hit fatigue. And you could only get the ability to do this if you had leveled to a certain point and completed some quest or stipulation.


Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 2:39am by AtryxEtair
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#22 Feb 22 2011 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
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Heartflame wrote:
I don't know.... Again, it really comes back to the fact that I'm playing the game to progress through it, and have fun. Having these invisible brick walls is really frustrating, and I wish that they'd remove this "feature." This is a design flaw. Like 80% of the game's "features," this is simply a flaw. I imagine it sounded good one day over coffee, as far as how to keep players playing longer... or how to make the game more appealing to people that didn't plan to play as much. But I think this feature definitely is more in SE's interest rather than the players'.


Heartflame wrote:
But really. Who is SE to tell me what I should be doing while in the game? I paid for it. Shouldn't I be allowed to play whatever class I want, for as long as I am willing to play? The fatigue system discourages me from playing. Because if I finally get into something and start to enjoy it, SE will come in and stop me saying, "Nope. You've actually started to make progress. Go do something else, or log back in next week."
It really is frustrating that I can't do what I paid to do.


Honestly I think it really depends on your focus. Not speaking for everyone, but most people’s idea of progression in an MMO is getting to max level. Now, i'm not saying that's wrong and that you should be forced to diversify but you'll have to eventually, no matter what game you play. What happens when you hit level 50? You paid to play CON and that's what you want to do but now you can't progress in the way you want, is that going to be equally annoying? Fatigue is like a regular level cap to slow your progress, just like 75, then 80, now 90 in FFXI... it's just presented differently and more regularly.

It’s also not like you only ever have fun just as you hit the fatigue limit, I’m assuming you’ve been enjoying yourself all along or you wouldn’t even be at the fatigue limit. It’s just now you’re annoyed because you can’t keep going. What’s stopping the group you’re with swapping to other jobs and continuing the fun? I do that constantly with Leve groups and nobody seems particularly bothered by it.

FFXIV does force you into playing multiple jobs, in multiple disciplines and yes, I do appreciate that the benefits of doing so are somewhat limited right now, but… diversity is there by design. If you just want to spend every waking hour grinding out EXP on THM because that’s the job you want to play, and that’s the job you paid to play, I think you’re playing the wrong game. I don’t know, I just think the landscape of the entire system looks quite different when you’re main objective isn’t ‘getting level 50’. It's far from perfect but it's not as bad as everyone makes out.
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#23 Feb 22 2011 at 3:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Saturus, I can appreciate the view point, and I understand that diversity is a good thing. I wouldn't even begin to try and argue that point.

Unfortunately, at the present, there is almost no reason for players to want to level horizontally. The only class combo I can think I'd really want to level both jobs near cap would be THM/CON for buffs / Chain-spell / Fast Cast. Maybe Glad/Mar for Defender 2?

I'm not saying that I wouldn't like to diversify my character. I really would. But even then, I still feel like it should be the player's choice.

You mentioned the level caps in FFXI. I didn't mind those as much, because you could do quests to get them removed. There was still a way to advance forward. It just required the player put in a little work for it. I don't mind doing side quests, or exploring new areas, or actually playing. Sure, when I first heard about that glass ceiling, I was a little miffed, but that was mostly because I was in an amazing party and our EXP/Hour was top-notch. So when I found out that I wasn't getting anything for it, eh. I was a little angry. But my next goal in the game became to get that removed, and that's what I did.

What's frustrating is that we hit a brick wall, and there is no way to get around it. You don't get the choice to unlock it. All we can do is just sit and wait for a week until it opens back up, then play for a very brief time and hit the same wall again. I simply don't see the reason for this "feature."

I understand that if there were more things to do in the game at any given level, like side quests, or gardening, or even if exploring was a bit less... repetitive, I'd have more to do to distract me. But as it stands now, I'm basically going from 50mph to 0 because I hit an invisible brick wall. It isn't fun, at all.

I would love if they made the game mechanics more feasible in the way of cross-classing some skills together. If they gave actual rewards / reasons to level other classes, I might be more interested. I'm not one of those players that will only level one job to cap so they don't have to play other roles. In fact, I get annoyed by those kind of players, (the ones that complain because the Dynamis LS has too many DRK and SAM in it already, and they absolutely refuse to level a tank or healer/buffer class). I don't mind leveling multiple jobs, I just have more fun doing it one at a time. It's more engaging and cost effective for me, (personally), to focus on doing one job correctly, than say, carrying around multiple sets of armor at a time.

I would be ecstatic if there was a real reason to level any of the other classes. But as it stands, it would be a waste of time. Almost every job can do what the others can, save for maybe take a hit as well, or being able to cast heals/buffs. So it's either re-level another job through content that you just got out of, or go craft. And I'm not even going to touch the crafting subject....

So yes. I think everyone here would agree that the game needs to have more diversity. But I think diversity would come from definition. Right now, all of the DoW classes are basically the same thing with only minor tweaks to their abilities. If we had more defined classes, it would make mixing and matching their abilities more interesting.

What I don't agree with, is the idea of these walls that appear after finally getting somewhere in the game. It really is restrictive, and I don't think I can make it any clearer than my previous statements. I don't like it because the game forces the player to do something else. As the player, I made a choice as to what I want to do with my time in the game. I can't believe that anyone would be in favor of the game telling them they couldn't play.

I hope that helps. I really do want this game to succeed. I just think that most of these "innovative features" were really bad ideas. I think if the game hadn't been rushed, (well... duh, right?), then SE might have seen that their ideas weren't as amazingly innovative as they tried to sell them to be. All we can do for now is level two hours out of the week, and hope that SE fixes it soon.

Also, this is a Final Fantasy game. Can we get some ******** Chocobos?! (>_<)!!!
#24 Feb 24 2011 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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I think the term 'glass wall' is a bit to harsh. It applies a halt to progress - that thou can go no further. This is untrue. I don't often spend time in surplus, but I actually had a whole weekend to play and I pretty exclusively spent that time in one class and in surplus, which sucked, but only a little. Essentially at the best points in the weekend my little group was earning 500sp a kill and I was getting 450. Later while just out grinding in Mistbeard, my cohort was earning about 200 a kill while I got 150 so I had hit the second lvl of surplus. This required a lot of grinding. (I did go from 31->35 over the weekend :) )But at the end of the day, fun was not reduced because my SP was lower, it just slowed my progress rate a little.

Now I play with some folks who play a lot...about 25 people in my LS have at least 1 r50 with a secondary r40, and they still don't get to a point where they are earning no experience. I think the highest I've heard is a 40% reduction...so it's not 50mph to 0..it's like driving 50 and then hitting a 35 zone :)

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 1:31pm by NayliaMR
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#25 Feb 25 2011 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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Heartflame wrote:
Unfortunately, at the present, there is almost no reason for players to want to level horizontally. The only class combo I can think I'd really want to level both jobs near cap would be THM/CON for buffs / Chain-spell / Fast Cast. Maybe Glad/Mar for Defender 2?


I can think of some.

Coyohma wrote:
With the SP increases as they are, I'm wondering what people are now planning long term as far as leveling other classes to poach from. As a Marauder who's planning on Musketeer, this is what I'm looking at:

  • 40 Archer (Raging Strike II)
  • 44 Lancer (Invigorate II)
  • 36 Pugilist (Second Wind II) (perhaps 46 someday for Blindside II ?)
  • 26 Gladiator (Cadence)
  • 48 Conjurer (Cure III)
  • 48 Thaumaturge (Sacrifice III)

  • ..It's a lot, with the mages being the real killer. What I feel like doing there to make it easier is make around 40 the initial stopping point.. Maybe 42 for Conjurer, 40 Thaumaturge, to get Shock Spikes/Stoneskin II and hit 50 in shield. Then whenever I feel like doing it, or whenever the tier 3 cures seem like they would really matter, finish them off to 48.


    Me too.
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