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Why is healing so lame?Follow

#1 Feb 22 2011 at 2:08 AM Rating: Good
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dummy mode
What are people's thoughts about aoe healing in this game? In 11, if you spammed aoe heals of this magnitude, you would die very quickly. It took a lot of skill to manage your hate with curing and regen spells. But in FFXIV, you just mindlessly spam cures on 15 people with little to no hate from it.

Even on GLA, using cure on myself or others doesn't generate much if any hate at all. IMO, this needs some serious adjustments to raise enmity gained by mass curing, and curing oneself.

I bet many people LOVE this right? eazier game = moar fun rite?!?!?!
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#2 Feb 22 2011 at 2:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Try spamming cures in a small group of say.. 6-8.

The only reason cure-spam doesn't pull a lot of hate in big 15-man parties, is that everyone else is using abilities and attacks at least as often.

Enmity makes little sense to me in this game, and is one of the things that still needs work.
I used Soughspeak a few times while leveling Conjurer, and quickly stopped using it when I discovered that I was actually pulling hate for using the ability itself.
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#3 Feb 22 2011 at 2:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Try casting Protect on 15 people in the middle of a fight.

Well, assuming you have a good tank - nothing.

Buffs & Debuffs seem to have much, much higher enmity than I'm used to.
I cast Dia & Poison in a fight and I'm suddenly tanking.

I don't mind this trade off, actually, but I don't really mind either way. It's not like Conjurer & Thaumaturge can't tank a few hits (one vs one, anyway). Mages in this game are more resilient than most mages I've played, too.
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#4 Feb 22 2011 at 2:19 AM Rating: Good
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BadJoRed wrote:
dummy mode
What are people's thoughts about aoe healing in this game? In 11, if you spammed aoe heals of this magnitude, you would die very quickly. It took a lot of skill to manage your hate with curing and regen spells. But in FFXIV, you just mindlessly spam cures on 15 people with little to no hate from it.

Even on GLA, using cure on myself or others doesn't generate much if any hate at all. IMO, this needs some serious adjustments to raise enmity gained by mass curing, and curing oneself.

I bet many people LOVE this right? eazier game = moar fun rite?!?!?!


Because they reduce enmity generated by Healing with the Nov 10 patch. People was complaining Heal generate too much enmity, did you forget that?
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#5 Feb 22 2011 at 2:24 AM Rating: Good
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Khornette wrote:
BadJoRed wrote:
dummy mode
What are people's thoughts about aoe healing in this game? In 11, if you spammed aoe heals of this magnitude, you would die very quickly. It took a lot of skill to manage your hate with curing and regen spells. But in FFXIV, you just mindlessly spam cures on 15 people with little to no hate from it.

Even on GLA, using cure on myself or others doesn't generate much if any hate at all. IMO, this needs some serious adjustments to raise enmity gained by mass curing, and curing oneself.

I bet many people LOVE this right? eazier game = moar fun rite?!?!?!


Because they reduce enmity generated by Healing with the Nov 10 patch. People was complaining Heal generate too much enmity, did you forget that?


Well he did write dummy mode in his post, so maybe he didn't have his thinking cap on.
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#6 Feb 22 2011 at 2:24 AM Rating: Good
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I'd say it's more dependent on when you cast a spell over how many people you cast it on. If you cast things on people within the first few seconds of the fight, (before the tank or melee really do anything) of course you pull hate for a second. I'm mostly talking about the aoe cure bombing that's going on. If things aren't 1 shotting your party or doing over 60% damage in one tp move, your entire party is basically invincible because you can spam cure and sacrifice back to back to back without pulling hate for the most part. =\

edited; I was not aware they reduced enmity at some point on this =\

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 3:25am by BadJoRed
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#7 Feb 22 2011 at 2:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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I could also Cure spam in XI with a good tank.
Cure V, Cure III, Cure V, Cure III, Cure V, Cure IV, Curaga II, Cure V
Throw in some Erase & -na flavor of the day and you have my end-game of XI.

Not that I don't get what you're saying. It is in easy mode.

Any tank will probably attest that enmity (for the most part) is kinda jacked up.
I'm hoping it has some serious tweaking soon.

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Speaking of -na spells. Do they even have a point in this game? -_-
Before I can even target my silenced wife, it wears off most of the time.
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#8 Feb 22 2011 at 2:55 AM Rating: Decent
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i dont understand why SE doesnt give healers different types of heals.
i mean, being able to aoe everyone within range is kinda boring to me. in other games there are heal spells that only heal a certain amount of people, heals that you have to stack several times, chain heals, if your target is attacked then you both get healed, idk... lots of stuff like that, but i just SE as being lazy about the majority of spells and abilities.
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#9 Feb 22 2011 at 3:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, you may call it lazy but ...

I think for the most part they're trying to duplicate the "feel" of a Final Fantasy spell.

I'm not really defending it as much as I am - justifying it?
They could do what you're saying and blend it with "Final Fantasy" spells and names.
I guess it is kinda lazy. I don't know.

/deletepost
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#10 Feb 22 2011 at 3:16 AM Rating: Good
Yeah it is pretty lame, but I am living in hope that once level cap is increased (maybe in 2 years) we get more versatile spells and the whole AOE issue and hate management will be fixed.
Being a healer takes NO SKILL WHAT SO EVER at the moment, anyone who knows how to AOE cure can do it and if they get hate and die it's always the tanks fault lolol
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#11 Feb 22 2011 at 3:37 AM Rating: Good
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Generally, the AOE button is stupid IMO.
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#12 Feb 22 2011 at 3:54 AM Rating: Good
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When healed in XI it feels often like "Oh my god THANK YOU for staying on top of things and saving my LIFE once again" in XIV it's more like "Cool now I don't have to run all 200meters to this point again, whatever".

Might make also healing a bit less rewarding, no?
#13 Feb 22 2011 at 4:08 AM Rating: Good
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I agree that the magic system needs some improvements.

First of all, spells cast in AoE mode should use more MP than single target.
It should be possible to toggle AoE mode on/off with a hotkey and the current mode should be visible when in active mode.
Targeting party members still needs to become a bit faster, give us F1-F8 keys at least. -> Thx LeilaniWildfire, guess I should play my DoM again ^^;

I think the biggest problem is, that, for the first weeks, targeting with spells and spell enmity was horrible. So players started to do what worked for them and these habits became the common way of doing things.
And the easiest way of healing is to just cast AoE on all party members.
By increasing the ammount of MP needed for AoE spells this would change pretty fast.

As a side effect healers would ask players to get a dedicated tank to make healing easier and save MP.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 8:53pm by RidingBean
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#14 Feb 22 2011 at 4:22 AM Rating: Decent
RidingBean wrote:

It should be possible to toggle AoE mode on/off with a hotkey and the current mode should be visible when in active mode.
Targeting party members still needs to become a bit faster, give us F1-F8 keys at least.

Hot Key = Z
F1 etc. works already

However I totally agree with everything else you wrote though ^^
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#15 Feb 22 2011 at 4:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It should be possible to toggle AoE mode on/off with a hotkey and the current mode should be visible when in active mode.
Targeting party members still needs to become a bit faster, give us F1-F8 keys at least.


i think what he means is that if you toggle AOE off then you wont have to confirm whether you want it on or off when you go to cast it, that way you can just hit the button and its automatically being charged/casted/used whatever, then if you wan you can toggle it back to on by hitting that button and you can then cast as AOE again without having to reconfirm, it would immediately start casting.
at least thats my ideal situation.

ps. i also agree that AOE spells should cost more MP
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#16 Feb 22 2011 at 4:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Very few if any people are quitting the game because healing is to easy. if SE made healing harder it would make some people happy and it would make some people unhappy. Some of the unhappy people would quit. I have a feeling SE isnt gonna "nerf" a class hardcore yet if they dont have to because they dont want to lose customers they wouldnt have lost otherwise.



Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 5:42am by UncleRuckusForLife
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#17 Feb 22 2011 at 4:47 AM Rating: Decent
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UncleRuckusForLife wrote:
Very few if any people are quitting the game because healing is to easy. if SE made healing harder it would make some people happy and it would make some people unhappy. Some of the unhappy people would quit. I have a feeling SE isnt gonna "nerf" a class hardcore yet if they dont have to because they dont want to lose customers they wouldnt have lost otherwise.


This. While i agree AOE should cost more MP, SE has alot more things they should be working on atm instead.
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#18 Feb 22 2011 at 4:52 AM Rating: Decent
Warby wrote:
While i agree AOE should cost more MP, SE has alot more things they should be working on atm instead.

Oh absolutely, I agree!
Just little things that would make mages happy (just like the fanfar when you ding ya know lol)
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#19 Feb 22 2011 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
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pixelpop wrote:
Quote:
It should be possible to toggle AoE mode on/off with a hotkey and the current mode should be visible when in active mode.


i think what he means is that if you toggle AOE off then you wont have to confirm whether you want it on or off when you go to cast it, that way you can just hit the button and its automatically being charged/casted/used whatever, then if you wan you can toggle it back to on by hitting that button and you can then cast as AOE again without having to reconfirm, it would immediately start casting.
at least thats my ideal situation.

ps. i also agree that AOE spells should cost more MP


Yep, that's what I meant. Let us toggle AoE mode with a global hotkey anytime and add a visible indicator whether AoE mode is on or off.
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#20 Feb 22 2011 at 2:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Couldn't they just make it so that AOE spells divide the effect across the tartgets? More targets = reduced potency per target?

I was thinking of something similar to Secret of Mana. You have the option to cast magic on one target for full effect or aoe for reduced effect on all targets. That may help diversify it a bit.
#21 Feb 22 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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Nyariko wrote:
Generally, the AOE button is stupid IMO.


I actually like this addition a lot from XI and it reminds me of past FF games.

All they have to do is to reduce damage or cure power in proportion of the number of target hit, the same way they do to split SP in parties (i-e not directly damage / # targets).

I agree that the enmity algorithms have not been optimized yet, but they are working on it.
#22 Feb 22 2011 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Very few if any people are quitting the game because healing is too easy

Plenty are quitting because the game is boring, though. When was the last time healing in FFXIV made your heart race?
#23 Feb 22 2011 at 5:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Caesura wrote:
Quote:
Very few if any people are quitting the game because healing is too easy

Plenty are quitting because the game is boring, though. When was the last time healing in FFXIV made your heart race?


I know what you mean but after leveling every job to 25+ I can safely say its not just healing thats putting people to sleep.
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#24 Feb 22 2011 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I addressed this issue in the player's poll and suggested an increase in MP cost for AoEs as well as increased enmity for cures. The constantly visible AoE mode indicator along with scrapping the confirmation for casting mode is a great suggestion, as well. Mobs like Great Buffalo are pretty lame when their "gimmick", the constant AoE, is automatically covered by the cures being cast on the tanks.
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#25 Feb 22 2011 at 6:59 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
When was the last time healing in FFXIV made your heart race?


Dodore, 2x a week, 3 hours each time

Grinding? Next to never (but that isn't much different than XI to me).
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#26 Feb 22 2011 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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LeilaniWildfire, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
RidingBean wrote:

It should be possible to toggle AoE mode on/off with a hotkey and the current mode should be visible when in active mode.
Targeting party members still needs to become a bit faster, give us F1-F8 keys at least.

Hot Key = Z
F1 etc. works already


Can you create healing macros with those "F" keys?
#27 Feb 23 2011 at 4:43 AM Rating: Decent
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rubina wrote:
LeilaniWildfire, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
RidingBean wrote:

It should be possible to toggle AoE mode on/off with a hotkey and the current mode should be visible when in active mode.
Targeting party members still needs to become a bit faster, give us F1-F8 keys at least.

Hot Key = Z
F1 etc. works already


Can you create healing macros with those "F" keys?

<stpc> still works as a targeting criteria. <p1> through <p15> work if you want to put in some more work.
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#28 Feb 23 2011 at 3:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Interesting topic! It sounds like I am a minority here, but I don't have a problem with healing as it is now, at least for how I am playing currently. As it is, to effectively AOE heal I have to position myself correctly: don't stand in front of the peiste, run to avoid getting nearly 1-shot by the gnat's special move, stay out of the mob's AOE range if possible, etc, and also try to keep both the archer and the melees I'm playing with in my frontal cone AOE. Sure, I could try healing without using AOE. But healing is almost never the only thing I do, unless I am the only mage and we are fighting something that hits really hard. If I had to heal everyone individually I don't think I'd get in a lot of debuffs on the mob, or do much else at all, y'know?

Of course, it comes down to the way you play. For longer battles and/or battles with a carefully thought out party where each member has a specified role, I can see there being a dedicated healer and there being more strategy and thought to healing. But honestly, I group with whoever I can find in my rank range that I meet at camps during the hours I am logged in, or I group with linkshell mates that happen to be on. And most fights while doing leves are quite short.

Yes, I know, I am probably "doing it wrong". xD Though surely this is not too uncommon of a play style, as I always see people asking around for leve parties at camps and grouping up as I do. So this is just my personal opinion as a THM and I understand and respect that others may feel differently. ^_^
#29 Feb 23 2011 at 4:25 PM Rating: Good
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Why is healing so lame? easy answer. Either you likk a mob in 30 seconds or less or they completly whip you out so to stay alive you need healing constantly. Untill SE tweakes the mobs damage they do it will stay lame. Not sure why they have mobs do damage at little affect then they do a WS that one shots you and people in the party.


On another note the mobs react to what you do. If you just do normal atacks so do they. If you do WS so do they at insane damage.
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#30 Feb 23 2011 at 4:44 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think adding variety would be a nerf to healing. I'm not a healer, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but...

As an Archer, if I had my buffs, and Light Shot, I think I'd get bored spamming it in a fight. I think I'd get even more bored if I wasn't spamming it, but only hitting it every now and then.

It's kind of what healing is like at the moment. The subject of the thread isn't "Healing is too easy" it's "Why is healing so lame?". Sure, it makes it pretty easy. Personally I don't think enmity is a huge issue with healing. In most games your DD will get hate and lose the fight for you before your healer does. Generally as someone earlier mentioned healers pulling hate normally only happens at the start of a fight due to the tank or the healer doing something silly.

I'm more concerned about the 1 button to heal them all. Sure, you have buffs to worry about every 5 minutes, or less w/ stone skin and stuff, but let's say you have 2 people dedicated to healing, and one has buffing duty and the other is primarily healing or something. Man that's got to be -exciting-.

I think it would make things more interesting to have AOE spells and non-AOE spells, just like we have w/ WS's. All the same targeting as other job's WS skills could apply to healing as well. THM have the cone, CON have the circle, these could just be spell specific. Line targeted spells, while more situational could also be more potent or mana efficient, pulling healing strategy into attack formations, and causing healers that are really on their toes to just flat out be more efficient.

I think jobs that allow people to -really- shine when a high level of player skill is introduced is awesome, and while historically healers are an appreciated role, they aren't always given the opportunity to really shine.
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