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Should FFXIV follow FFXI with scenario?Follow

#1 Feb 22 2011 at 10:31 PM Rating: Default
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Maybe i am the only one out there, but one particular thing i love about FFXI are those 3 scenario.

Yes, it cost like 10 bucks, but personally, i enjoy the accomplishment for reward not by grinding instances N numbers of times or getting reputation repeatedly in battleground.

In the end, the reward selection was amazingly great as well, it let you choose which "buff" you want and these buffs are stats from some great items you can acquire by grinding.

As a casual player, i can't opt enough time into joining an elite LS for Sky or sea camping. I don't have time to develop DKP vs these everyday players. I think Yoshi-p should consider scenarios as another alternative to raiding/instances.

I am pretty sure, i don't want to see another game like wow where to get a set of gear, you have to grind the same dungeon in a 8 man over and over running the same event again and again.

Would be nice if Yoshi can consider make a separate team like 2-3 people making new scenarios for people who willing to pay for but not necessarily require. Giving the choice for more casual players to "buy" favorable gears and complete less "time consuming/dedicated storyline" instead of grinding them.

#2 Feb 22 2011 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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The problem w/ 14 is that it tries to please everyone at the same time. If you do HNM and instance NM ppl will just camp what drops better stuff, and if both drop the same gear sets ppl will spam whats easier.
#3 Feb 22 2011 at 11:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I just want them to find a balance. The scenarios were complete crap, and a waste of money and time aside from the end gear. the gear awarded were also met with a good deal of anger from players who spent time getting relics and sky gear just to replace it with a $10 armor.

I never want to see those scenarios again.

I also don't look forward to 2 dynamis runs per month on the honor system that our leaders are keepign points correctly and not stealing the gear and currency they want. I don't want to do the same repetive 4 hour dungeon weekly just to see only 2 items drop.

I hope that endgame in FFXIV looks more like the endgame that was introduced later in FFXI, Nyzul Isle, Assaults, AF3 in abyssea. I also hope that they continue awarding points for participation that you use to buy gear with instead of hoping for poor drop rates.
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#4 Feb 22 2011 at 11:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
I just want them to find a balance. The scenarios were complete crap, and a waste of money and time aside from the end gear. the gear awarded were also met with a good deal of anger from players who spent time getting relics and sky gear just to replace it with a $10 armor.

I never want to see those scenarios again.

I also don't look forward to 2 dynamis runs per month on the honor system that our leaders are keepign points correctly and not stealing the gear and currency they want. I don't want to do the same repetive 4 hour dungeon weekly just to see only 2 items drop.

I hope that endgame in FFXIV looks more like the endgame that was introduced later in FFXI, Nyzul Isle, Assaults, AF3 in abyssea. I also hope that they continue awarding points for participation that you use to buy gear with instead of hoping for poor drop rates.


Personally, i think Dynamis is fine, but the loot system should change. Instead of loot drop, each players should get a reward in the end that is base completely by luck and addition re-do the dynamis with the random item draw still intact should increase better chance or upgrade for better item until it max out and force you to random. That way everyone get something in the end and we can throw dkp out.

On the other hand, i love the scenario, apart from some stupid parts that exist just to make you run.

Shantotto's story was amazingly done, seriously, that battle was FUN. giving 9999 stats and 6000 HP/MP was a great idea. The giant shantotto battle was fun to watch...

I also like first story where they try to put some part of the original FF story into it, the fight was ok, not exactly fun. Moogle one have a great story as well.

But at the end, the best part is after a difficult battle, the reward is a great end-game item.
#5 Feb 22 2011 at 11:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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wrongfeifong wrote:
Giving the choice for more casual players to "buy" favorable gears and complete less "time consuming/dedicated storyline" instead of grinding them.


Guess what? If you don't have the time to play a game, you should not get to play a game; there is no reason to eliminate (or degrade) persistent content just because certain people (for some reason) feel that, regardless of their situation and their limitations, a game should cater to their watered-down desires at the expense of others.

Should dungeon crawlers eliminate large dungeons because certain people only have a half-hour to play? Should hardcore games cease to be created because some people are unwilling to set aside enough time to beat them?

There are tons - literally, metric tons of shovelware - of "casual" games you can "buy" your way through; there are plenty of "soft-core," 9-hour games you can pop into and pop out of that are designed for people who can't set aside a few dedicated hours. Go play those; I don't want a game to cater to people who don't want to play it very much! Why would anybody? It curtails the game.

Demon's Souls is a cult classic. Why? Because it's hard, and anybody who gets anything has to actually try hard to get it - thus it gives everything a certain innate value. Is it exclusionary for some poeole? Yes, it is - but so is everything.

Terse vernacular: if you don't have time to do a certain recreational activity, then don't play it. Nobody's changing the rules of professional basketball just because you don't have enough time to train in order to compete. Either get better, join the children's league, or find a new sport.

I am a graduate student who will be working on his third master's degree this year; I also have a part-time job; I don't have much time to play, and I certainly cannot conform to a "raid schedule" or what-have-you - but I like the idea that, in some games, there are things in existence that are valuable, things that possess a certain level of sacridity because of their difficulty to acquire. If you take that away, if you let every pair of people with $10 between them "buy" their way to that glory, the value is removed and the game loses its appeal.
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#6 Feb 22 2011 at 11:44 PM Rating: Decent
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I dunno, I have no problem with there being some elite gear that is a huge time sink as long as there is some really good (but not elite) gear you can get in a more reasonable time frame. Why shouldn't everyone who pays their fee get to access most of the game's content? Why should casual gamers subsidize hardcore gamers to the point where they are gimped if they don't have that time to give. Sure, give the hardcore people something to work towards - a small edge - but it shouldn't be a huge gap.

That doesn't mean making the game easy either - cause whatever people like to believe time sink does not equal hard. Make the content challenging, for sure, but don't make it so utterly time consuming to be decently geared to participate in actual fun content that you block people from the fun content.

I am just downloading the patches for XI now, I haven't done the scenarios yet, and it will take me awhile to get there from level 1... but I look forward to stories! I look forward to quests! Honestly if charging the first round of people 10 bucks per scenario is what it takes to make a profit off of making good content that doesn't become part of the ordinary grind, I don't think that is too high a price to pay. I also don't see it as "buying" the gear since you still need to get to a high enough level to do the content, and then DO it.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 9:48pm by Olorinus
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#7 Feb 23 2011 at 12:04 AM Rating: Decent
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i agree with with kane kitty if you dont have time to play a game, dont play it there should be enough games out there that give you instant gratification without much downtime, its not our fault that some people doesnt make their time to play this game, i want a hardcore game that i need to play months even for years to get all what i want like i did in FFXI because its a hobby for me and i want it to last.

Im most of the times a casual player, but what i loved of FF XI is that everytime that i logged in i had a lot of stuff to do and never ended having all i wanted, so when i achieved something like getting an AF after a few hard chain of quest it meant a lot and people would know that, the opposite experience that i had in WoW, everything was too easy to get even getting a character from 1 to 80, so i got bored pretty soon.


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#8 Feb 23 2011 at 12:32 AM Rating: Default
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kepex wrote:
i agree with with kane kitty if you dont have time to play a game, dont play it there should be enough games out there that give you instant gratification without much downtime, its not our fault that some people doesnt make their time to play this game, i want a hardcore game that i need to play months even for years to get all what i want like i did in FFXI because its a hobby for me and i want it to last.

Im most of the times a casual player, but what i loved of FF XI is that everytime that i logged in i had a lot of stuff to do and never ended having all i wanted, so when i achieved something like getting an AF after a few hard chain of quest it meant a lot and people would know that, the opposite experience that i had in WoW, everything was too easy to get even getting a character from 1 to 80, so i got bored pretty soon.




Maybe you should consider getting the best gear in 80 as your objective. I am pretty sure you will feel the same.

FFXI doesn't have the grind compare to WoW even the slightest. The FFXI i remember is pretty much a given game. To be very honest, i found wow is a lot more difficult in raid boss vs ffxi raid type boss.
I have beaten all Sea if not most (beside AV) sky, odin, ...etc i never found any of these boss as hard as Onyxia as a first encounter, not to mention the rest.

The reason WoW boss get easier is people have to try it out first first hand and not everyone get its. How many time did you try to complete Molten core until you beat Ragarnok. Countless. But FFXI boss are usually just a first encounter where you watch some youtube video and you can just mimic the process. Of course, there are some time from time element of surprise but even as best guild on wow before BC, Ragnarok would still pose to be a problem after 10+ kills (at least how i fell)

I personally fell WoW is harder because of the "transition" phases which might occur anytime these boss have and objective within these phase. While FFXI doesn't necessary have it (kirin does but rest doesn't really beside their 20% or 50% moves which is a dead beat)

I would never call WoW easy compare to FFXI, maybe you just never played wow in all seriously.

Anyway back to the topic, i didn't ask for instant gratification, the payment would be use to assist in paying off a separate team just focusing their time on make scenarios. I found FFXI is lacking in the sense that there is so little story-line as it is, beside the big expansion, there isn't enough long side-quests, these scenario would definitely serve their purposes while not at the expense of taking people off from getting the hardcore grinding content.

Remember, FFXIV was built as a casual player game, If you want hardcore stuff, go play another game that is built on hardcore grinding.

#9 Feb 23 2011 at 1:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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wrongfeifong wrote:

FFXI doesn't have the grind compare to WoW even the slightest. The FFXI i remember is pretty much a given game. To be very honest, i found wow is a lot more difficult in raid boss vs ffxi raid type boss.
I have beaten all Sea if not most (beside AV) sky, odin, ...etc i never found any of these boss as hard as Onyxia as a first encounter, not to mention the rest.

The reason WoW boss get easier is people have to try it out first first hand and not everyone get its. How many time did you try to complete Molten core until you beat Ragarnok. Countless. But FFXI boss are usually just a first encounter where you watch some youtube video and you can just mimic the process.


Original Chains of Promathia, Red Mage Maat Fight, AV, Pandemonium Warden, Charybdis, Alexander.. These fights are/were tough SoBs. I played WoW a bit but never past 40 so I can't attest to the comparison, but I think it just seems that way because WoW has so many instanced dungeons with bosses to fight so you can find more examples of hard fights, while FFXI doesn't.

In the end, there has to be hard/impossible to get gear for the hardcore or you lose your playerbase and the endgame becomes what WoW's is: a race for the new gear that is attainable but quickly trumped by the next expansion pack.

If there is no carrot to chase, no one plays. You have to decide if it will be a long term goal or many many short term and ultimately devalued goals. I personally prefer the Relic Weapon model. Never in my life can I get one, but those that do know it won't be replaced by a new shiny in a month.
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#10 Feb 23 2011 at 1:57 AM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
wrongfeifong wrote:

FFXI doesn't have the grind compare to WoW even the slightest. The FFXI i remember is pretty much a given game. To be very honest, i found wow is a lot more difficult in raid boss vs ffxi raid type boss.
I have beaten all Sea if not most (beside AV) sky, odin, ...etc i never found any of these boss as hard as Onyxia as a first encounter, not to mention the rest.

The reason WoW boss get easier is people have to try it out first first hand and not everyone get its. How many time did you try to complete Molten core until you beat Ragarnok. Countless. But FFXI boss are usually just a first encounter where you watch some youtube video and you can just mimic the process.


Original Chains of Promathia, Red Mage Maat Fight, AV, Pandemonium Warden, Charybdis, Alexander.. These fights are/were tough SoBs. I played WoW a bit but never past 40 so I can't attest to the comparison, but I think it just seems that way because WoW has so many instanced dungeons with bosses to fight so you can find more examples of hard fights, while FFXI doesn't.

In the end, there has to be hard/impossible to get gear for the hardcore or you lose your playerbase and the endgame becomes what WoW's is: a race for the new gear that is attainable but quickly trumped by the next expansion pack.

If there is no carrot to chase, no one plays. You have to decide if it will be a long term goal or many many short term and ultimately devalued goals. I personally prefer the Relic Weapon model. Never in my life can I get one, but those that do know it won't be replaced by a new shiny in a month.


glad someone else remember the pre nerf CoP stuff
now that was some of the hardest stuff in any game ever, there was a reason only a handful of people ever completed it pre nerf
pure skill needed in most of it, nothing to do with gear(just that you needed to actualy own some at those levels)
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#11 Feb 23 2011 at 4:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Vedis wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
wrongfeifong wrote:

FFXI doesn't have the grind compare to WoW even the slightest. The FFXI i remember is pretty much a given game. To be very honest, i found wow is a lot more difficult in raid boss vs ffxi raid type boss.
I have beaten all Sea if not most (beside AV) sky, odin, ...etc i never found any of these boss as hard as Onyxia as a first encounter, not to mention the rest.

The reason WoW boss get easier is people have to try it out first first hand and not everyone get its. How many time did you try to complete Molten core until you beat Ragarnok. Countless. But FFXI boss are usually just a first encounter where you watch some youtube video and you can just mimic the process.


Original Chains of Promathia, Red Mage Maat Fight, AV, Pandemonium Warden, Charybdis, Alexander.. These fights are/were tough SoBs. I played WoW a bit but never past 40 so I can't attest to the comparison, but I think it just seems that way because WoW has so many instanced dungeons with bosses to fight so you can find more examples of hard fights, while FFXI doesn't.

In the end, there has to be hard/impossible to get gear for the hardcore or you lose your playerbase and the endgame becomes what WoW's is: a race for the new gear that is attainable but quickly trumped by the next expansion pack.

If there is no carrot to chase, no one plays. You have to decide if it will be a long term goal or many many short term and ultimately devalued goals. I personally prefer the Relic Weapon model. Never in my life can I get one, but those that do know it won't be replaced by a new shiny in a month.


glad someone else remember the pre nerf CoP stuff
now that was some of the hardest stuff in any game ever, there was a reason only a handful of people ever completed it pre nerf
pure skill needed in most of it, nothing to do with gear(just that you needed to actualy own some at those levels)


Yeah indeed, CoP pre nerf was very challenging (and a reason why it took so many attempts for people to pass a fight). I remember all the 0/12 etc... about those fights and it was actually scary to go in there. My worst/best memories was those **** mammoths, it took so many tries to past that. Also the lvl20 avatar fights were challenging and required many attempts. As far as Red mage fight was concerned, I did not find it hard, I beat it without any special items as my second attempt (I could beat him at the first attempt but got 'surprised' by his chainspell). I also remember how many times we attempted Diabolos fight (not the mission one but the one to get the avatar) and plenty of other fights.
So my point is that things should be challenging to have a great feeling of accomplishment but time sink things are just annoying (Dynamis and the very bad drop rates). Beating CoP before pre nerf was really something I was proud of and enjoyed doing even though it was difficult and taking the best skills possible out of people.
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#12 Feb 23 2011 at 5:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Perhaps something to remember, but ever since FFXI implemented scenario's, any real chance of there ever being a true expansion got tossed out of the window.

Now i dont know about you guys, but given the choice between:

1. A full on (FFXI's ToAU size'd) expansion with massive new area's, monsters, gear, cities and quests/events/content that will keep you occupied for months if not years.

or

2. Choosing to get three poorly written final fantasy fanfics by supposedly someone in the age range of 12 to 14, that as an added bonus ruins existing lore about the Mother crystals or any and all events happening with them just for one piece of decent gear in the same re-used zones, completed in an hour or two, for the same amount of money.

I'd know what to choose. Just saying. And i hope you know what way you want FFXIV to take as well.

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#13 Feb 23 2011 at 5:34 AM Rating: Good
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I agree with the last few posts and as such believe that anyone that says WoW is harder than FFXI is either bias or didn't experience the full range of experiences both games have/had to offer.

Even the level grind in FFXI is harder than WoW's, I could probbaly count in my hands the ammount of times I died from getting a Shadow Priest from 1 to 70 (outside intances) while I would need most of my fingers to count the ammount of times I died in Valkrum Dunes (12-20).
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#14 Feb 23 2011 at 7:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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I remember clearing the CoP promies back when it took a full alliance just to get to the top... pre-nerf CoP was no joke. It took me a year to fully complete it pre-nerf.
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#15 Feb 23 2011 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
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When 14 released I still hadn't finished CoP. Before the first nerf I got through the prommies, after the second nerf we beat the Mammet fight. After the uncapping we went from Onryu fight to Sea Access in a week.

Still, even with 4 level 80's, the Tenzen Airship fight was tough. We still failed 4 times before we decided Sam Sam Monk Sam 2 hour bonanza.

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#16 Feb 23 2011 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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Works better when the game is established. Too many features are about to change in the coming months (in the core of the game) for them to be able to pull this off effectively enough at this point.
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#17 Feb 23 2011 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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wrongfeifong wrote:
kepex wrote:
i agree with with kane kitty if you dont have time to play a game, dont play it there should be enough games out there that give you instant gratification without much downtime, its not our fault that some people doesnt make their time to play this game, i want a hardcore game that i need to play months even for years to get all what i want like i did in FFXI because its a hobby for me and i want it to last.

Im most of the times a casual player, but what i loved of FF XI is that everytime that i logged in i had a lot of stuff to do and never ended having all i wanted, so when i achieved something like getting an AF after a few hard chain of quest it meant a lot and people would know that, the opposite experience that i had in WoW, everything was too easy to get even getting a character from 1 to 80, so i got bored pretty soon.




Maybe you should consider getting the best gear in 80 as your objective. I am pretty sure you will feel the same.

FFXI doesn't have the grind compare to WoW even the slightest. The FFXI i remember is pretty much a given game. To be very honest, i found wow is a lot more difficult in raid boss vs ffxi raid type boss.
I have beaten all Sea if not most (beside AV) sky, odin, ...etc i never found any of these boss as hard as Onyxia as a first encounter, not to mention the rest.

The reason WoW boss get easier is people have to try it out first first hand and not everyone get its. How many time did you try to complete Molten core until you beat Ragarnok. Countless. But FFXI boss are usually just a first encounter where you watch some youtube video and you can just mimic the process. Of course, there are some time from time element of surprise but even as best guild on wow before BC, Ragnarok would still pose to be a problem after 10+ kills (at least how i fell)

I personally fell WoW is harder because of the "transition" phases which might occur anytime these boss have and objective within these phase. While FFXI doesn't necessary have it (kirin does but rest doesn't really beside their 20% or 50% moves which is a dead beat)

I would never call WoW easy compare to FFXI, maybe you just never played wow in all seriously.

Anyway back to the topic, i didn't ask for instant gratification, the payment would be use to assist in paying off a separate team just focusing their time on make scenarios. I found FFXI is lacking in the sense that there is so little story-line as it is, beside the big expansion, there isn't enough long side-quests, these scenario would definitely serve their purposes while not at the expense of taking people off from getting the hardcore grinding content.

Remember, FFXIV was built as a casual player game, If you want hardcore stuff, go play another game that is built on hardcore grinding.




I played WoW to endgame and got almost all the best gear in the game, yeah i loved the raids, the dungeons were fun at the begining but after several runs you get tired of the badge system, yes you could grind but it was too easy and mostly boring because at the end you could make dungeons with eyes shut, and yes i liked that the boss battles had different dynamics.


But you must agree with me in this, everything seemed to be lended to you in that game, you could get at least a mediocre gear that could have almost equal stats than the best gear just trading badges, so the achieving factor was lost especially in the Lich King expansion, i liked the game as it was before that expansion so i dont want an easy game like that, i want things to be hard to get like BCNM KSNM Dynamis, Limbus, etc.


If you saw a guy with Artifact armor in FFXI you would know the difficulties he had to get that gear, in WoW you would say ohh yeah i bought it yesterday that too, you would see people getting in less than two weeks 3 or 4 pieces of that armor because they were grinding dungeons to collect badges like crazy thanks to the looking for party search feature added you could even make the same dungeon heroic again the same day.


If you saw someone having a relic you would know what they went thru to get it and you'll know that you would need at least several months for getting yours a lot of people didnt got any of those... so what game was harder?


Im not opposing to the dungeon system they want to add but i want a dungeon that needs to be done in several hours or parts having a week time to reset i want real content.


Why would someone want something that wont last a month to get, this isnt a job or homework, this a hobby and of course i want it to last as much as possible.
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#18 Feb 23 2011 at 1:57 PM Rating: Decent
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KojiroSoma wrote:
Perhaps something to remember, but ever since FFXI implemented scenario's, any real chance of there ever being a true expansion got tossed out of the window.


I think the abyssea stuff is pretty much a full expansion - yeah maybe it is split into three parts but seems like a lot of content and new areas and new things to do in there. I haven't been yet - but if that isn't an expansion, I am not sure what is?
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#19 Feb 23 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
KojiroSoma wrote:
Perhaps something to remember, but ever since FFXI implemented scenario's, any real chance of there ever being a true expansion got tossed out of the window.


I think the abyssea stuff is pretty much a full expansion - yeah maybe it is split into three parts but seems like a lot of content and new areas and new things to do in there. I haven't been yet - but if that isn't an expansion, I am not sure what is?


It is a bunch of re-skinned zones with not much new in terms of areas. It's not a bad thing and I personally loved Abyssea.

But this logic doesn't work. "Expansions out the window"? Its a 10 year old game that's had many many expansions and is dealing with PS2 limitations, so the main issue and the reason for these scenario's is most likely lack of memory space to create new areas.

Ans given that limitation, the content they provided is remarkably fun and entertaining with a great deal of creativity (abyssea, not the scenarios before it). I think XI and XIV are going to meet somewhere in the middle in terms of Casual VS Hardcore.

Everything SE has added and adjusted in FFXI has been to reduce the chore of playing, free up time, add fun and less time sinks. FFXIV started super casual but the new direction it seems to be taking from Yoshi-P's letters is to add more non-casual content.

I've always thought it SE's intention to combine the games.
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#20 Feb 23 2011 at 6:37 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Why shouldn't everyone who pays their fee get to access most of the game's content?


It's just a target market for your game. Make it a dozen hours long, gimmicky, and/or easy and I won't play it - but lots of people will. Conversely, if someone makes a game unforgiving, complicated, requiring low-to-moderate mathematical skills, and toting a high learning-curve, lots of people won't play it, but I will - I'll probably play the **** out if it, actually.

The very recent dogma that any game should be all things to all people only succeeds in making watered-down games in general. I'm not saying that FFXIV can't cater to casuals, it certainly can, it's just that I personally won't bother playing it if there's not a considerable amount of investment. Furthermore, if the in-game separation between high-investment and low-investment players isn't wide enough, then there is no reason for the latter to play - there's no challenge; there's no sense of accomplishment.

Maybe it's possible to please both groups of players simultaneously; I just haven't seen a game do it yet, and FFXIV will have to be more innovative than marrying 8 six-minute-long tasks every day-and-a-half with a steep and essentially unrewarding grind.
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#21 Feb 24 2011 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Abyssea sets the bar for an endgame event. It is a non linear outdoor dungeon with multiple paths and goals.
You can:
-Hunt Notorious Monsters and standard monsters for loot
-Hunt Notorious monsters and standard monsters for AF seals and pop items
-Earn and experience points and level up
-Defeat Notorious Monsters and Zone bosses for Atma(A better style of earning merit like stats)
-Most things can be puggd but linkshells still viable
-A plethora of paths to obtain Artifact 3 such as dominion(grind with xp and loot feature boost), bastion(repeatable flagged battle), grinding.
Multiple tiers of AF3 +1 for casual approach, +2 for a tad more hardcore

The only thing wrong with abyysea imo:
1.It made most other pre aquired gears from other events virtually obsolete
2.Initially made parties outside abyssea less frequent(lvl 30 entry should have been 60 or 75)
3.Main boss is easier than the bosses required to beat to access main boss.
4.Just made rest of vanadiel seem less important.

But other than that it's a sandbox that offers many choices.
#22 Feb 24 2011 at 2:13 PM Rating: Default
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kepex wrote:
wrongfeifong wrote:
kepex wrote:
i agree with with kane kitty if you dont have time to play a game, dont play it there should be enough games out there that give you instant gratification without much downtime, its not our fault that some people doesnt make their time to play this game, i want a hardcore game that i need to play months even for years to get all what i want like i did in FFXI because its a hobby for me and i want it to last.

Im most of the times a casual player, but what i loved of FF XI is that everytime that i logged in i had a lot of stuff to do and never ended having all i wanted, so when i achieved something like getting an AF after a few hard chain of quest it meant a lot and people would know that, the opposite experience that i had in WoW, everything was too easy to get even getting a character from 1 to 80, so i got bored pretty soon.




Maybe you should consider getting the best gear in 80 as your objective. I am pretty sure you will feel the same.

FFXI doesn't have the grind compare to WoW even the slightest. The FFXI i remember is pretty much a given game. To be very honest, i found wow is a lot more difficult in raid boss vs ffxi raid type boss.
I have beaten all Sea if not most (beside AV) sky, odin, ...etc i never found any of these boss as hard as Onyxia as a first encounter, not to mention the rest.

The reason WoW boss get easier is people have to try it out first first hand and not everyone get its. How many time did you try to complete Molten core until you beat Ragarnok. Countless. But FFXI boss are usually just a first encounter where you watch some youtube video and you can just mimic the process. Of course, there are some time from time element of surprise but even as best guild on wow before BC, Ragnarok would still pose to be a problem after 10+ kills (at least how i fell)

I personally fell WoW is harder because of the "transition" phases which might occur anytime these boss have and objective within these phase. While FFXI doesn't necessary have it (kirin does but rest doesn't really beside their 20% or 50% moves which is a dead beat)

I would never call WoW easy compare to FFXI, maybe you just never played wow in all seriously.

Anyway back to the topic, i didn't ask for instant gratification, the payment would be use to assist in paying off a separate team just focusing their time on make scenarios. I found FFXI is lacking in the sense that there is so little story-line as it is, beside the big expansion, there isn't enough long side-quests, these scenario would definitely serve their purposes while not at the expense of taking people off from getting the hardcore grinding content.

Remember, FFXIV was built as a casual player game, If you want hardcore stuff, go play another game that is built on hardcore grinding.




I played WoW to endgame and got almost all the best gear in the game, yeah i loved the raids, the dungeons were fun at the begining but after several runs you get tired of the badge system, yes you could grind but it was too easy and mostly boring because at the end you could make dungeons with eyes shut, and yes i liked that the boss battles had different dynamics.


But you must agree with me in this, everything seemed to be lended to you in that game, you could get at least a mediocre gear that could have almost equal stats than the best gear just trading badges, so the achieving factor was lost especially in the Lich King expansion, i liked the game as it was before that expansion so i dont want an easy game like that, i want things to be hard to get like BCNM KSNM Dynamis, Limbus, etc.


If you saw a guy with Artifact armor in FFXI you would know the difficulties he had to get that gear, in WoW you would say ohh yeah i bought it yesterday that too, you would see people getting in less than two weeks 3 or 4 pieces of that armor because they were grinding dungeons to collect badges like crazy thanks to the looking for party search feature added you could even make the same dungeon heroic again the same day.


If you saw someone having a relic you would know what they went thru to get it and you'll know that you would need at least several months for getting yours a lot of people didnt got any of those... so what game was harder?


Im not opposing to the dungeon system they want to add but i want a dungeon that needs to be done in several hours or parts having a week time to reset i want real content.


Why would someone want something that wont last a month to get, this isnt a job or homework, this a hobby and of course i want it to last as much as possible.


Because Heroic gear was sold for emblems ? RIGHT?!?
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#23 Feb 24 2011 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Hard Games Rock.
Not sure why some people think that MMO's should cater to everyone. If you don't have alot of time for an RPG, then play a single player RPG where you can take your time by yourself. Otherwise there is noone to complain to if some people can hit End Game in 6 months when it takes you a couple years.

Even in single player RPG's there is New Game + or continue after End Credits. The Hardcore Gamer beats the game, starts New Game+ and collects everything, beats all sub bosses....etc. Meanwhile the casual player is just receiving the package in the mail cause they didn't get the Pre-Orderd early delivery version. Seems fair to me.

Being able to buy into something is a little silly. If you dont' have the time or skill to get good gear, abilities, etc then you don't deserve it. The reason you don't deserve it is because you don't have the time or skill that requires posession of it. Cause you're never gonna fight the bosses that require the best gear/abilites to fight them. Just wanting to look cool is not a reason to need something.

Cheers :-)

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 3:19pm by SlayerXero

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 3:23pm by SlayerXero
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#24 Feb 24 2011 at 2:24 PM Rating: Default
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SlayerXero wrote:
Hard Games Rock.
Not sure why some people think that MMO's should cater to everyone. If you don't have alot of time for an RPG, then play a single player RPG where you can take your time by yourself. Otherwise there is noone to complain to if some people can hit End Game in 6 months when it takes you a couple years.

Even in single player RPG's there is New Game + or continue after End Credits. The Hardcore Gamer beats the game, starts New Game+ and collects everything, beats all sub bosses....etc. Meanwhile the casual player is just receiving the package in the mail cause they didn't get the Pre-Orderd early delivery version. Seems fair to me.

Being able to buy into something is a little silly. If you dont' have the time or skill to get good gear, abilities, etc then you don't deserve it. The reason you don't deserve it is because you don't have the time or skill that requires posession of it. Cause you're never gonna fight the bosses that require the best gear/abilites to fight them. Just wanting to look cool is not a reason to need something.

Cheers :-)

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 3:19pm by SlayerXero

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 3:23pm by SlayerXero


Elitist much ?
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#25 Feb 24 2011 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Why shouldn't everyone who pays their fee get to access most of the game's content?


It's just a target market for your game. Make it a dozen hours long, gimmicky, and/or easy and I won't play it - but lots of people will. Conversely, if someone makes a game unforgiving, complicated, requiring low-to-moderate mathematical skills, and toting a high learning-curve, lots of people won't play it, but I will - I'll probably play the **** out if it, actually.

The very recent dogma that any game should be all things to all people only succeeds in making watered-down games in general.


Again, you don't have to make it "Make it a dozen hours long, gimmicky, and/or easy" to not block 90% of your playerbase from accessing most of the content in the game.

I don't think XI is watered down and currently the game has tons of options for decent gears - quite a few options for good gear - and a few elite gears.

I have no problem with things like 10K moat carp for a lu-shangs. I don't expect to have a lu-shangs if I am not willing to put that effort in.

There is no problem with having some elite-level stuff for hardcore players to go after and distinguish themselves, but there should be plenty of good gear for people that pay their subs and want to enjoy the game and access content. No, the content shouldn't be made easier for them - because once again - hours of camping and grinding is not "hard" it is just boring. Challenging encounters? Yeah, bring them on!

Having to farm for 100 hours for basic, entry level endgame gear? No thanks.

I think SE made the right decision by adding things like these scenarios that gave people more options of how to obtain decent gear for higher level characters.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#26 Feb 24 2011 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
SlayerXero wrote:
Hard Games Rock.
Not sure why some people think that MMO's should cater to everyone. If you don't have alot of time for an RPG, then play a single player RPG where you can take your time by yourself. Otherwise there is noone to complain to if some people can hit End Game in 6 months when it takes you a couple years.

Even in single player RPG's there is New Game + or continue after End Credits. The Hardcore Gamer beats the game, starts New Game+ and collects everything, beats all sub bosses....etc. Meanwhile the casual player is just receiving the package in the mail cause they didn't get the Pre-Orderd early delivery version. Seems fair to me.

Being able to buy into something is a little silly. If you dont' have the time or skill to get good gear, abilities, etc then you don't deserve it. The reason you don't deserve it is because you don't have the time or skill that requires posession of it. Cause you're never gonna fight the bosses that require the best gear/abilites to fight them. Just wanting to look cool is not a reason to need something.

Cheers :-)

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 3:19pm by SlayerXero

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 3:23pm by SlayerXero


Elitist much ?


Elitist mindset? You are correct kind sir. Try your hardest, every time, at everything you do. That way when you fail, you will try again.
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#27 Feb 24 2011 at 4:25 PM Rating: Good
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660 posts
SlayerXero wrote:
Ostia wrote:
SlayerXero wrote:
Hard Games Rock.
Not sure why some people think that MMO's should cater to everyone. If you don't have alot of time for an RPG, then play a single player RPG where you can take your time by yourself. Otherwise there is noone to complain to if some people can hit End Game in 6 months when it takes you a couple years.

Even in single player RPG's there is New Game + or continue after End Credits. The Hardcore Gamer beats the game, starts New Game+ and collects everything, beats all sub bosses....etc. Meanwhile the casual player is just receiving the package in the mail cause they didn't get the Pre-Orderd early delivery version. Seems fair to me.

Being able to buy into something is a little silly. If you dont' have the time or skill to get good gear, abilities, etc then you don't deserve it. The reason you don't deserve it is because you don't have the time or skill that requires posession of it. Cause you're never gonna fight the bosses that require the best gear/abilites to fight them. Just wanting to look cool is not a reason to need something.

Cheers :-)

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 3:19pm by SlayerXero

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 3:23pm by SlayerXero


Elitist much ?


Elitist mindset? You are correct kind sir. Try your hardest, every time, at everything you do. That way when you fail, you will try again.


Clearly if you're having fun you're not hardcore enough to play anything.

Look, I can see this kind of determination being useful if you're in business or if you're in the military defending your country, but this attitude in a video game - as well as condemning others for not agreeing - just seems absurdly silly. Nothing you do in this game amounts to jack all outside of the game. The only society where your in game accomplishments even matter is within those who also participate in the game and even then, most people won't give a **** anyway. Combine that with the time and effort spent on reaching said virtual achievements and it can clearly start to impact other areas of your life outside the game.

I also have a hard time grasping how narcissistic I'd have to be to so proudly comdemn others for having a different idea on how games should be played. Maybe I'm just not enough of an ******* to give two ***** about it. Nothing quite like the nerd rage of a narcissistic ********* videogame player complaining about how everyone else is ruining whatever game they play.

This isn't really directed at any one person, but instead to any elitist who wants to tell people how to enjoy anything. If that's you then hey, this is my opinion.
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#28 Feb 24 2011 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
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There's good elitism and bad elitism.

It's the bad elitism that condemns a party member for wearing gear that isn't the latest and greatest, like a Samurai with an Onimaru instead of a Hagun, and refuses to join parties with a Pup or Drg or whatever the current lol job is in it.

Good elitism helps keep the lazy or unknowledgeable players in check. Like that Rdm that joins your party in Dream Gear, or the Full AF Drg at 75.

I like good elitism, I hate poor attitudes and know-it-alls, especially when they are wrong.

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#29 Feb 24 2011 at 5:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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660 posts
Louiscool wrote:
There's good elitism and bad elitism.

It's the bad elitism that condemns a party member for wearing gear that isn't the latest and greatest, like a Samurai with an Onimaru instead of a Hagun, and refuses to join parties with a Pup or Drg or whatever the current lol job is in it.

Good elitism helps keep the lazy or unknowledgeable players in check. Like that Rdm that joins your party in Dream Gear, or the Full AF Drg at 75.

I like good elitism, I hate poor attitudes and know-it-alls, especially when they are wrong.



I agree with you. The thing is we can choose who to group with and who not to. That's why it bugs me so much when people go out of their way to belittle other players who don't have the same play style. There's just no justifiable reason to do it besides doing it to troll people.

There's a line between giving advice and being an elitist *******.
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#30 Feb 24 2011 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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reptiletim wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
There's good elitism and bad elitism.

It's the bad elitism that condemns a party member for wearing gear that isn't the latest and greatest, like a Samurai with an Onimaru instead of a Hagun, and refuses to join parties with a Pup or Drg or whatever the current lol job is in it.

Good elitism helps keep the lazy or unknowledgeable players in check. Like that Rdm that joins your party in Dream Gear, or the Full AF Drg at 75.

I like good elitism, I hate poor attitudes and know-it-alls, especially when they are wrong.



I agree with you. The thing is we can choose who to group with and who not to. That's why it bugs me so much when people go out of their way to belittle other players who don't have the same play style. There's just no justifiable reason to do it besides doing it to troll people.

There's a line between giving advice and being an elitist *******.


Absolutely. I prefer to just make note that XXXX is not to be invited again to my party next time because he wears dream gear and move on. I like to be helpful when players are just unknowledgable, but I can't deal with the ones who just don't give a frack.
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#31 Feb 24 2011 at 7:03 PM Rating: Decent
11 posts
It seems very simple to me- make the game available to a whole range of players from casual to hardcore- the more time you put in the better the gear. Perhaps with the difficulty setting in FFXIV, we can have casual and hardcore gamers experience the whole game which would be HUGE for SE- casual people play it on 1 star and get 1 star rated gear, and hardcore players use 5 star and get 5 star gear requiring utmost perfection in gaming strategy. You both can save Eorzea but the 5 stars are more bad-*** and where the intense fans will play.

Easy way for FFXIV to do both and hope/believe this will be/was their intention. A way to reward hardcore gamers is to have added scenarios on 5 star difficulty so you don't just play the same dungeon/scenario over and over again- like halfway through on 5 star you have a special fight against Ifrit or something. Throw in added stuff but allow everyone to experience the entirety of the plot for the game no matter the time commitment= ultimate game.

#32 Feb 24 2011 at 8:19 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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21,739 posts
wrongfeifong wrote:
Maybe i am the only one out there, but one particular thing i love about FFXI are those 3 scenario.

Yes, it cost like 10 bucks, but personally, i enjoy the accomplishment for reward not by grinding instances N numbers of times or getting reputation repeatedly in battleground.

In the end, the reward selection was amazingly great as well, it let you choose which "buff" you want and these buffs are stats from some great items you can acquire by grinding.

As a casual player, i can't opt enough time into joining an elite LS for Sky or sea camping. I don't have time to develop DKP vs these everyday players. I think Yoshi-p should consider scenarios as another alternative to raiding/instances.

I am pretty sure, i don't want to see another game like wow where to get a set of gear, you have to grind the same dungeon in a 8 man over and over running the same event again and again.

Would be nice if Yoshi can consider make a separate team like 2-3 people making new scenarios for people who willing to pay for but not necessarily require. Giving the choice for more casual players to "buy" favorable gears and complete less "time consuming/dedicated storyline" instead of grinding them.
Are you f*cking kidding me? They need to be releasing a lot of free content before they can start just considering charging to acquire it.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#33 Feb 24 2011 at 9:57 PM Rating: Default
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bsphil wrote:
wrongfeifong wrote:
Maybe i am the only one out there, but one particular thing i love about FFXI are those 3 scenario.

Yes, it cost like 10 bucks, but personally, i enjoy the accomplishment for reward not by grinding instances N numbers of times or getting reputation repeatedly in battleground.

In the end, the reward selection was amazingly great as well, it let you choose which "buff" you want and these buffs are stats from some great items you can acquire by grinding.

As a casual player, i can't opt enough time into joining an elite LS for Sky or sea camping. I don't have time to develop DKP vs these everyday players. I think Yoshi-p should consider scenarios as another alternative to raiding/instances.

I am pretty sure, i don't want to see another game like wow where to get a set of gear, you have to grind the same dungeon in a 8 man over and over running the same event again and again.

Would be nice if Yoshi can consider make a separate team like 2-3 people making new scenarios for people who willing to pay for but not necessarily require. Giving the choice for more casual players to "buy" favorable gears and complete less "time consuming/dedicated storyline" instead of grinding them.
Are you f*cking kidding me? They need to be releasing a lot of free content before they can start just considering charging to acquire it.



My idea was they set another team specific for these scenarios, You can pay that 15 bucks a month, but it doesn't mean it can cover more if you want extra.

Scenario should be something that is apart from normal contents intended for both casual and hardcore players.

my idea was scenarios should be something extra, like a second expansion that is on-going. That is why i don't mind paying them extra for something like this. As much i would love to see expansion. Scenario is different from expansion, it use something from the game already exist and build a new story.

Let's just think of this payment as paying a new writer to write new story and build a story base on existed content instead of having the original team split up and work on improve the game, make new expansion/storyline, and scenario making.

Heck i don't mind they use it to BUY random talents around to write new FF story. Seriously, would it hurt to play FFXIV and pay to watch another FF movie @ the theater?

FFXI proven that they can't work in a new expansion while writing these scenario. I want BOTH new expansion meanwhile new scenarios build on the world existing.



Edited, Feb 24th 2011 10:58pm by wrongfeifong
#34 Feb 25 2011 at 1:08 AM Rating: Default
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wrongfeifong wrote:
bsphil wrote:
wrongfeifong wrote:
Maybe i am the only one out there, but one particular thing i love about FFXI are those 3 scenario.

Yes, it cost like 10 bucks, but personally, i enjoy the accomplishment for reward not by grinding instances N numbers of times or getting reputation repeatedly in battleground.

In the end, the reward selection was amazingly great as well, it let you choose which "buff" you want and these buffs are stats from some great items you can acquire by grinding.

As a casual player, i can't opt enough time into joining an elite LS for Sky or sea camping. I don't have time to develop DKP vs these everyday players. I think Yoshi-p should consider scenarios as another alternative to raiding/instances.

I am pretty sure, i don't want to see another game like wow where to get a set of gear, you have to grind the same dungeon in a 8 man over and over running the same event again and again.

Would be nice if Yoshi can consider make a separate team like 2-3 people making new scenarios for people who willing to pay for but not necessarily require. Giving the choice for more casual players to "buy" favorable gears and complete less "time consuming/dedicated storyline" instead of grinding them.
Are you f*cking kidding me? They need to be releasing a lot of free content before they can start just considering charging to acquire it.



My idea was they set another team specific for these scenarios, You can pay that 15 bucks a month, but it doesn't mean it can cover more if you want extra.

Scenario should be something that is apart from normal contents intended for both casual and hardcore players.

my idea was scenarios should be something extra, like a second expansion that is on-going. That is why i don't mind paying them extra for something like this. As much i would love to see expansion. Scenario is different from expansion, it use something from the game already exist and build a new story.

Let's just think of this payment as paying a new writer to write new story and build a story base on existed content instead of having the original team split up and work on improve the game, make new expansion/storyline, and scenario making.

Heck i don't mind they use it to BUY random talents around to write new FF story. Seriously, would it hurt to play FFXIV and pay to watch another FF movie @ the theater?

FFXI proven that they can't work in a new expansion while writing these scenario. I want BOTH new expansion meanwhile new scenarios build on the world existing.



Edited, Feb 24th 2011 10:58pm by wrongfeifong


You want a Pay-to-Play MMO to also include the Free-To-Play business model by including a shop where people spend real money on gear and items that take shortcuts for the player.

Now that I know you have a mental disability, I will leave this thread to you. You can treat this like CreedThoughts.gov

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycKOEuX6mIo
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#35 Feb 25 2011 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
i agree with with kane kitty if you dont have time to play a game, dont play it there should be enough games out there that give you instant gratification without much downtime, its not our fault that some people doesnt make their time to play this game


In this day and age, an MMO can't survive and compete on the subscriptions of players like you. The reality is that the company makes more money by catering to casual gamers who don't necessarily have the time to invest in rapidly blowing through the content. For you, it's a game. For Squeenix, it's a business, where the bottom line is all that matters.

Additionally, if I'm paying the subscription fee, you can shove your advice about what games I should and should not be playing right up your @$$. Yes, FFXIV is free to play right now, but it won't always be, and paying the monthly fee means I've purchased the right to access the game's content, no matter what your opinion on the matter happens to be. If I can't make good enough progress in my limited time to feel as though I can participate in the game in a meaningful fashion, I'm going to stop paying my subscription fee. You know what happens to all that hardcore content if enough people like me take our business elsewhere? It goes poof when the servers shut down.

Now, I don't think people should be able to buy in-game content. I don't want to play the kind of game that dabbles in sanctioned RMT. I'm also perfectly happy with there being gear I will never attain, like Riddil, or Excalibur. What I do not want to see happen is for FFXIV to follow in FFXI's footsteps, where peer pressure makes certain expensive or difficult to obtain gear standard leveling equipment that is considered "bare minimum" for acceptance in party play.
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Ealdwulf wrote:
So one of the big downsides of playing PUP, and why almost everyone hates them, is that they all display the wounds of Christ?
Sephrick wrote:
I'd imagine it as descretely reaching around said person, not screaming kamehameha as I use the pld as a trampoline.
dmhlucky wrote:
the curse of good DD's is they tend to have less Defense, meaning they get high for more.
Master ketrel wrote:
Its just an emote you sick son of a *****
#36 Feb 25 2011 at 12:11 PM Rating: Default
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GailC wrote:
Quote:
i agree with with kane kitty if you dont have time to play a game, dont play it there should be enough games out there that give you instant gratification without much downtime, its not our fault that some people doesnt make their time to play this game


In this day and age, an MMO can't survive and compete on the subscriptions of players like you. The reality is that the company makes more money by catering to casual gamers who don't necessarily have the time to invest in rapidly blowing through the content. For you, it's a game. For Squeenix, it's a business, where the bottom line is all that matters.

Additionally, if I'm paying the subscription fee, you can shove your advice about what games I should and should not be playing right up your @$$. Yes, FFXIV is free to play right now, but it won't always be, and paying the monthly fee means I've purchased the right to access the game's content, no matter what your opinion on the matter happens to be. If I can't make good enough progress in my limited time to feel as though I can participate in the game in a meaningful fashion, I'm going to stop paying my subscription fee. You know what happens to all that hardcore content if enough people like me take our business elsewhere? It goes poof when the servers shut down.


You're right. FFXI's servers shut down for being unforgiving and punishing. Wait, no... I got that wrong, it weeded out many of the lazy "give it to me now" mentality players and has a community of hardcore players I enjoy playing with.

Quote:

Now, I don't think people should be able to buy in-game content. I don't want to play the kind of game that dabbles in sanctioned RMT. I'm also perfectly happy with there being gear I will never attain, like Riddil, or Excalibur. What I do not want to see happen is for FFXIV to follow in FFXI's footsteps, where peer pressure makes certain expensive or difficult to obtain gear standard leveling equipment that is considered "bare minimum" for acceptance in party play.


Well I actually do agree to a certain degree here.

I mean, there is still hardly an excuse to be a level 60 Samurai without a Haubergeon. There's a line between "you really should have this" and "I refuse to level with people who don't have X or Y"

Edited, Feb 25th 2011 1:16pm by Louiscool
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