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Patch 1.16 Outline (02/24/2011)Follow

#152 Feb 25 2011 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Wolfums wrote:
kainsilv wrote:
I have a idea SE. How about you just go ahead and post all the quests you are adding and their content right now. That way we can all know what we need to do as soon as we log in. We can complete all the content you add in 3 hours and anxiously await the next patch. Thanks SE really appreciate it!

Come on! Really?! Where is the fun in that?


1. The overwhelming majority of players would ask their LS, shout, or look up what was added and how to do it on a database site like ZAM. This breaks immersion way more than markers by NPC names.
2. Adding NPC markers doesn't mean you automatically get walked through quests. They can still be challenging.
3. If SE only adds 3 hours of content, then you would have burned through it quickly regardless of quest markers, and you would still be sitting there wishing you had more stuff to do in the game. No quest markers just gives you the illusion of more content because you're not doing the content that was added due to not knowing about it.

Exaggerate much? Quest markers is not the apocalypse. You're literally hating on it because you equate quest markers with quest difficulty similar to WOW's, when they're unrelated.


Not the apocalypse but why spend time & resources "fixing" something that didn't need it? Your comment about equating markers to WoW is totally incorrect. My base of comparison is FFXI which didn't need quest markers and was successful without them. They are truly making this game very easy. Implementing auto MP regen in a game where MP management is almost easier than HP management? All you have to do is a little research and level the correct classes and you won't need an auto regen of MP.

I do realize they are doing it to appeal to new players and gain marketshare (which should be the prime focus).

Here's to hoping they make the game as challenging as FFXI post rank 50.

Edited, Feb 25th 2011 10:38am by JJCheebone

Edited, Feb 25th 2011 10:40am by JJCheebone
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#153 Feb 25 2011 at 9:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Wolfums wrote:
1. The overwhelming majority of players would ask their LS, shout, or look up what was added and how to do it on a database site like ZAM. This breaks immersion way more than markers by NPC names.

=> This is what worries me the most if that's true (which I dunno). The fact that it seems players don't seem to be willing to figure things out on their own and need their hands taken to do things. Why not just ask if you are stuck instead of asking for everything. This is the reason why I stopped playing F2P games (and 'can I have money prz?') where even obivous things had to be asked to others instead of thinking by themselves or even just look at the quest log...

Quote:
2. Adding NPC markers doesn't mean you automatically get walked through quests. They can still be challenging.

=> Indeed but it spoils the surprise (everyone like surprises right, specially when they have a positive orientation) to trigger a cutscene for a quest.

Quote:
3. If SE only adds 3 hours of content, then you would have burned through it quickly regardless of quest markers, and you would still be sitting there wishing you had more stuff to do in the game. No quest markers just gives you the illusion of more content because you're not doing the content that was added due to not knowing about it.

=> It does not give any illusion of more content, it's not more content, it's just, as you said, triggering the content that you did not know existed. It also avoid burning through it all at once as you don't see who is giving quests, you don't spend all your time doing all the quest and then go back partying/leves/crafting once there are no more markers to be seen. Without markers, you can use downtime to talk to NPCs, maybe trigger a quest and do it at some other time.

Quote:
Exaggerate much? Quest markers is not the apocalypse. You're literally hating on it because you equate quest markers with quest difficulty similar to WOW's, when they're unrelated.

=> I don't think anyone confuses NPC markers and quest difficulty, it's about something else: Being surprise! FFXI went a bit too far in the quests setup as you really did not know what to do or where to go but now with the journal, it should be pretty easier to keep track.
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#154 Feb 25 2011 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
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JJCheebone wrote:
Not the apocalypse but why spend time & resources "fixing" something that didn't need it? Your comment about equating markers to WoW is totally incorrect. I don't like it because it's not needed and FFXI was successful without it. They are truly making this game very easy. Auto MP regen in a game where MP management is almost easier than HP management? All you have to do is a little research and level the correct classes.

I do realize they are doing it to appeal to new players and gain marketshare.

Here's to hoping they make the game as challenging as FFXI post rank 50.


You're ignoring the content of his message, specifically point 1: people would simply ask their LSmates, random strangers, or look the information up on a database to find information on quests and the NPCs that provide them. Adding quest markers, along with enough information in the initial dialogue to guide you on where you need to go, will go a long way to eliminating dependance on out-of-game resources for information, which is the important thing to take away from all of this.

After all, which is a better quest for keeping you in the game: the guy who stands out and asks you to find his grandfather's scepter at an old gravesite in the middle of the forest to the west, or the guy who blends into the scenery and asks you to find an item, all other details withheld, with no opportunities to ask questions or otherwise prompt for information?
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#155 Feb 25 2011 at 10:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Quanta wrote:
JJCheebone wrote:
Not the apocalypse but why spend time & resources "fixing" something that didn't need it? Your comment about equating markers to WoW is totally incorrect. I don't like it because it's not needed and FFXI was successful without it. They are truly making this game very easy. Auto MP regen in a game where MP management is almost easier than HP management? All you have to do is a little research and level the correct classes.

I do realize they are doing it to appeal to new players and gain marketshare.

Here's to hoping they make the game as challenging as FFXI post rank 50.


You're ignoring the content of his message, specifically point 1: people would simply ask their LSmates, random strangers, or look the information up on a database to find information on quests and the NPCs that provide them. Adding quest markers, along with enough information in the initial dialogue to guide you on where you need to go, will go a long way to eliminating dependance on out-of-game resources for information, which is the important thing to take away from all of this.

After all, which is a better quest for keeping you in the game: the guy who stands out and asks you to find his grandfather's scepter at an old gravesite in the middle of the forest to the west, or the guy who blends into the scenery and asks you to find an item, all other details withheld, with no opportunities to ask questions or otherwise prompt for information?


You are correct. I did not address the first point. Even with the quest markers people are still going to ask LSmates, random strangers, and look it up. Don't get me wrong, it will make questing easier for some folks, but it's not going to alleviate the perceived need of outside help for most even when every detail is laid out in the journal. Obviously my argument is moot since it's going to be added regardless, I just think there were other parts of the game that should be addressed first. Hopefully future changes will keep some semblance of challenge intact.
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#156 Feb 25 2011 at 10:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ipwnrice wrote:
(I instantly think giant floating exclamation marks even though who knows how SE will do it)


Giant floating crystals, because that's thematically new and superficially different!
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#157 Feb 25 2011 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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JJCheebone wrote:
Not the apocalypse but why spend time & resources "fixing" something that didn't need it? Your comment about equating markers to WoW is totally incorrect. I don't like it because it's not needed and FFXI was successful without it. They are truly making this game very easy. Auto MP regen in a game where MP management is almost easier than HP management? All you have to do is a little research and level the correct classes.

I do realize they are doing it to appeal to new players and gain marketshare.

Here's to hoping they make the game as challenging as FFXI post rank 50.


It's a fairly minor change that improves the game's user friendliness immensely. One of the top complaints about FFXI AND FFXIV was that you absolutely had to look stuff up on third party database websites, or you would not get anywhere in game. Quest markers is one step to moving away from a near 100% reliance on third party sites.

And sorry, but FFXI would have seen a lot less success if not for sites like ZAM, ffxiclopedia, ffxi.somepage, etc.

But I understand the concern about spending time for things that seem minor. But it's actually a fairly large step in improving FFXIV's user friendliness.

Carmillia wrote:
=> This is what worries me the most if that's true (which I dunno). The fact that it seems players don't seem to be willing to figure things out on their own and need their hands taken to do things. Why not just ask if you are stuck instead of asking for everything. This is the reason why I stopped playing F2P games (and 'can I have money prz?') where even obivous things had to be asked to others instead of thinking by themselves or even just look at the quest log...


About half the people I tried to get into FFXI quit in the first day or week because they had no idea where they should be going or what to do. You're right in that most people aren't willing to go to Google to do research on the game they're playing. But what's better, turning away those players, or giving them the in-game tools to find what they're looking for?

Quote:
=> Indeed but it spoils the surprise (everyone like surprises right, specially when they have a positive orientation) to trigger a cutscene for a quest.


The flipside is that what if they never get to experience that surprise? If you're throwing some guy a surprise birthday party at home, and instead of going home after work he goes to the bar alone, he just lost out on way more fun than if you had simply told him you're going to host a party for him.

Quote:
=> It does not give any illusion of more content, it's not more content, it's just, as you said, triggering the content that you did not know existed. It also avoid burning through it all at once as you don't see who is giving quests, you don't spend all your time doing all the quest and then go back partying/leves/crafting once there are no more markers to be seen. Without markers, you can use downtime to talk to NPCs, maybe trigger a quest and do it at some other time.


Personally I don't like having a lot of content that is easy to miss. If FFXIV's quests are anything like FFXI's, where you actually NEED some of those quests to get job-required skills/gear, you definitely don't want to hide that from players.

Besides, if I don't know about a quest and don't end up doing it because I missed it, then it's practically as though it wasn't even content.

Quote:
=> I don't think anyone confuses NPC markers and quest difficulty, it's about something else: Being surprise! FFXI went a bit too far in the quests setup as you really did not know what to do or where to go but now with the journal, it should be pretty easier to keep track.


Like above, surprises can be double edged swords. Both systems have their strengths and weaknesses, but I prefer a system that's a little more predictable.
#158 Feb 25 2011 at 10:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

1. The overwhelming majority of players would ask their LS, or shout. This breaks immersion way more than markers by NPC names.


That sounds good in theory and would make for a better MMO (and making you more immersed in it). But the Western community is individualistic and we don't want to ask anyone for help. Eastern communities are more community-based and they have no problem with this sort of thing. Western community wants to do everything by themselves, and only by forcing us to communicate (with strangers, or friends gained through forced communication) we will do so for the most part.

Our ideology does not really fit into the concept of an MMORPG honestly.

Edited, Feb 25th 2011 7:31pm by Hyanmen
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#159 Feb 25 2011 at 10:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Here's a thought for those complaining about quest markers...

Having quest markers actually gives us an idea of the pace of development as far as the number of quests they will be introducing per patch going forward. This is something that may have been ambiguous otherwise because it's unlikely SE is going to say "We have added 13 quests into Eorzea" etc etc via their patch notes.

There is alot more good that can come from this addition than harm.
#160 Feb 25 2011 at 11:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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People keep saying "I want quest markers" and "I don't want quest markers".

I haven't heard anyone provide a counterargument to "Add quest markers, and allow players to toggle them on and off". If you want to see them, you can. If you think they're intrusive, you can hide them.

At this point, the only person who could POSSIBLY not like that idea are the people who don't want to see them AND don't want anyone ELSE to see them either. And those people can **** off.
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#161 Feb 25 2011 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
People keep saying "I want quest markers" and "I don't want quest markers".

I haven't heard anyone provide a counterargument to "Add quest markers, and allow players to toggle them on and off". If you want to see them, you can. If you think they're intrusive, you can hide them.

At this point, the only person who could POSSIBLY not like that idea are the people who don't want to see them AND don't want anyone ELSE to see them either. And those people can @#%^ off.


They haven't stated if they (the markers) can or can't be turned off, but I imagine from the way that people are reacting to them, We will definitely see them as an optional visual effect (if not when they are released, very shortly after)... But then again, if people are just complaining to complain, this will come and pass like the wind:).
#162 Feb 25 2011 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
◆ Reexamination of stats
¤ Addition of an auto-MP regeneration feature
The part of me that is a bitter RDM main says "THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!"

The cynic in me wonders whether it'll be up while in combat and out of combat and not just one or the other. Also whether it'll come trough a trait that only one or two classes has access to instead of being something baseline for everyone with an MP pool.

Edited, Feb 25th 2011 1:47pm by Ruisu
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#163 Feb 25 2011 at 5:31 PM Rating: Decent
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i dont talk to emotioneless zombie humunculoids (FFXIV's NPCs) unless i need to, so for me, an attractive non visually childish or abrasive quest markers onmost or average/fun/for the **** of it quests, however i think every RPG, MMO or no, should have "secrets" that should be stumbled upon. sure they wont be secrets within a week of being released but to me thats still a hint of extra immersion.

Edited, Feb 25th 2011 6:32pm by pixelpop
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#164 Feb 25 2011 at 6:14 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
That sounds good in theory and would make for a better MMO (and making you more immersed in it). But the Western community is individualistic and we don't want to ask anyone for help. Eastern communities are more community-based and they have no problem with this sort of thing. Western community wants to do everything by themselves, and only by forcing us to communicate (with strangers, or friends gained through forced communication) we will do so for the most part.

Our ideology does not really fit into the concept of an MMORPG honestly.


This is actually the only thing that bothers me about quest markers. People talk about how 'immersion' breaking it is to go look stuff up online or be forced to talk with people just to get anywhere... but that's what actually makes MMORPGs different. You have the option of talking to people to solve things, you have the option to get help from the community to get more information on what you should do next. This game already has a horrible issue with community involvement but that's because of poor tools for communication fueled by events that need little to no explanation. (Doesn't help that there is very little content that even needs other peoples help anyways). When the game is easy to 'solo' from an information sense, there is little need for community involvement outside of being forced to do it (Like big bosses to tackle, or multiple crafters needed etc.) But it doesn't matter, the markers are coming now so there is little need to argue it. I just hope the marker itself isn't very intrusive and in the future we can get the ability to toggle it off. Once the tool is in, rarely will it be removed.
#165 Feb 25 2011 at 7:33 PM Rating: Good
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pixelpop wrote:
i dont talk to emotioneless zombie humunculoids (FFXIV's NPCs) unless i need to, so for me, an attractive non visually childish or abrasive quest markers onmost or average/fun/for the **** of it quests, however i think every RPG, MMO or no, should have "secrets" that should be stumbled upon. sure they wont be secrets within a week of being released but to me thats still a hint of extra immersion.
There's a difference between good secrets and bad secrets. Quest design as per FFXI = bad secrets. Specially if you are like me and HATE to have open quests or quests you wanted to avoid but could not. Two Horn the Savage still sits in my quest log, as unsoloable and rewardless as it was the day it was implemented, for example.

The nova monument and the dead king's tomb, on the other hand, are good secrets. Truly neat things to find that make you go "whoa, cool" without hindering the gameplay of those who don't run into the secret. For the curious, both are in WoW. One was a reference to the defunct project known as Starcraft: Ghost, while the other was a reference to the Conan the Barbarian novels.

Keeping quests "secret", in short, is not the pinnacle of good design. At least, not to me.
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#166 Feb 25 2011 at 11:29 PM Rating: Good
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rfolkker wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
People keep saying "I want quest markers" and "I don't want quest markers".

I haven't heard anyone provide a counterargument to "Add quest markers, and allow players to toggle them on and off". If you want to see them, you can. If you think they're intrusive, you can hide them.

At this point, the only person who could POSSIBLY not like that idea are the people who don't want to see them AND don't want anyone ELSE to see them either. And those people can @#%^ off.


They haven't stated if they (the markers) can or can't be turned off, but I imagine from the way that people are reacting to them, We will definitely see them as an optional visual effect (if not when they are released, very shortly after)... But then again, if people are just complaining to complain, this will come and pass like the wind:).



I don't really care whether they put it in or not. I just think's it's a little sad that the game has to get easier every patch. Sell outs ;p

(no arguments about it not making the game easier pls. I'm apathetic toward it.)

Edited, Feb 26th 2011 12:29am by BadJoRed
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#167 Feb 26 2011 at 1:22 AM Rating: Decent
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most of it looks at least reasonable if not good, I do hope they don't make the mods comicly large though I realy like the more realistics size of most mobs.
#168 Feb 26 2011 at 2:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
most of it looks at least reasonable if not good, I do hope they don't make the mods comicly large though I realy like the more realistics size of most mobs.

Realistic.. like, marmots?
Those tiny rodents that can one-shot you right through your 3 cm steel plate armor at LV 40?
#169 Feb 26 2011 at 4:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Realistic.. like, marmots?
Those tiny rodents that can one-shot you right through your 3 cm steel plate armor at LV 40?


That has nothing to do with the size.

Nothing should be smaller than an XI hare in this game imo.
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#170 Feb 26 2011 at 6:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Nah. I was trying to be sarcastic,
and at the same time express my
dissatisfaction with fighting
re-colored squirrels throughout
1-40. Berhaps I should stick to
one attack per comment! ^.-/
#171 Feb 26 2011 at 7:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Nah. I was trying to be sarcastic,
and at the same time express my
dissatisfaction with fighting
re-colored squirrels throughout
1-40. Berhaps I should stick to
one attack per comment! ^.-/


I see. I don't see the problem though. There's more than enough monster types in the game, which even give more SP than marmots do. It's not like you can not choose. More importantly, find me a game that doesn't reuse any monster types throughout the leveling curve, and I'll point you a game that sacrifices monster quality for quantity.

Frankly, the main reason I am disappointed at some of the current monster sizes is because they don't do the models justice. They are very well detailed and animated, maybe too much even, so at least I would like to see them in their full glory instead of having to zoom in to see what I am fighting. Glad to see it changed, and so soon.

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#172 Feb 26 2011 at 7:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
People keep saying "I want quest markers" and "I don't want quest markers".

I haven't heard anyone provide a counterargument to "Add quest markers, and allow players to toggle them on and off". If you want to see them, you can. If you think they're intrusive, you can hide them.

At this point, the only person who could POSSIBLY not like that idea are the people who don't want to see them AND don't want anyone ELSE to see them either. And those people can @#%^ off.
It reminds me of the people in FFXI who hated being Examined, but didn't want to turn off the "So-and-so examines you." messages.
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#173 Feb 26 2011 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
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NPC and PC separate scrolling, plus chat log scrolling for controllers (Yes, Please).

Although I do wish they'd add better party invite mechanics, I still haven't memorized the text command to add someone.



Off topic but the best way to remember /pcmd add FirstName Last Name is because it's short for Party Command.
#174 Feb 26 2011 at 12:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
People keep saying "I want quest markers" and "I don't want quest markers".

I haven't heard anyone provide a counterargument to "Add quest markers, and allow players to toggle them on and off". If you want to see them, you can. If you think they're intrusive, you can hide them.

At this point, the only person who could POSSIBLY not like that idea are the people who don't want to see them AND don't want anyone ELSE to see them either. And those people can @#%^ off.


I'll go **** off then :)

I don't think they should be on/off/ever there, because I DON"T THINK THERE SHOULD BE A NEED FOR THEM TO EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE!

The reason people ask for quest markers is because they want a way to identify where things to do are in the game.

IMO, almost every NPC in this game should be value add. They should all (at least the majority of NPCs) either open content OR POINT YOU TOWARDS CONTENT.

Remember when you entered a city in a game, and all the NPCs were like "The king is so sad, I wish someone would help him..." or "I hear there's trouble down by the docks..."

Where the **** is that in this game? Quest NPCs shouldn't ever need a marker because the rest of the NPCs should be the markers. Why are the NPCs that babble about how great gambling on gladiator matches in the game when I can neither gamble nor observe a gladiator match. It makes no sense. NPCs should have a purpose beyond muttering..."I think I drank too much, I'm gonna sit down"...
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#175 Feb 26 2011 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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There is absolutely no need for quest markers you're right. Theres also no need for the icons telling us what level a mob is. But they both increase the enjoyment and experience of a lot of people. I don't want to hunt down and talk to 50 NPCs to find a quest any more than I want to search and kill 400 marmots until I find the ones that give decent experience at my level. Its a game and I want to spend more of my time playing it, and less of my time BSing around trying to figure out what to do.
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#176 Feb 26 2011 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Ironically the people who say they'd hate to have to talk to NPCs to find a quest will be the same ones to complain if SE only adds quest NPCs and no atmospheric/lorical NPCs to speak with or "to give the world life".

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#177 Feb 26 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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I could definatly agree with NPCs haveing more interesting things to say, but I'm coming from the crowd that might remember UO NPCs actualy carrying on conversations with you and responding to what you type in instead of choosing a line of text.
#178 Feb 26 2011 at 4:46 PM Rating: Decent
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4 pages of complaining of stuff that hasn't even been released yet? I know ff14 release was bad, but I don't think anyone will "ever" be happy w/ this game no matter what they add.
#179 Feb 26 2011 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
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People seem to be under the delusion that it's fun wandering aimlessly talking to every npc to find a quest. It's not fun, it's a time sink.

If they didn't add markers I would just look up the quests here. Markers save me time. I don't want to talk to every NPC. Some people might, and markers don't prevent you from reading the same pointless conversation 100 times if you choose.

It's funny how a marker would break immersion, but everyone is fine seeing Names on everyones head. What am I, that kid in Death Note? While we're at it, take away all NPC and PC names, take away bazaar icons, mini maps, HP and MP bars, enemy target markers and signs, all the hud.

If you're not willing to take those away, don't ***** and moan about a silly star icon next to a name. They use pink stars for market wards, I'm certain they will use a similar icon, not some giant flashing "!!!"


Edited, Feb 26th 2011 5:58pm by Louiscool
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#180 Feb 26 2011 at 5:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, it's not a big deal to me to have a marker so long as it isn't too obtrusive. A marker on thier name would be perfect, while a flashing sign over thier head would be a pain.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't like more put into the NPCs, an online world is only as alive as it's people, PC or NPC.

EDIT: I also would love to see "RP" or vanity type cloathing show up on one of these lists. Sometimes I don't want to wear armor, or dress like a **** :P, something to relax in would be nice.

Edited, Feb 26th 2011 6:33pm by zurinadrg
#181 Feb 26 2011 at 7:33 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
People seem to be under the delusion that it's fun wandering aimlessly talking to every npc to find a quest. It's not fun, it's a time sink.

If they didn't add markers I would just look up the quests here. Markers save me time. I don't want to talk to every NPC. Some people might, and markers don't prevent you from reading the same pointless conversation 100 times if you choose.

It's funny how a marker would break immersion, but everyone is fine seeing Names on everyones head. What am I, that kid in Death Note? While we're at it, take away all NPC and PC names, take away bazaar icons, mini maps, HP and MP bars, enemy target markers and signs, all the hud.

If you're not willing to take those away, don't ***** and moan about a silly star icon next to a name. They use pink stars for market wards, I'm certain they will use a similar icon, not some giant flashing "!!!"


Edited, Feb 26th 2011 5:58pm by Louiscool


I'll say it again, few people are asking people to go from NPC to NPC finding quests, that's what someone does who doesn't want to EVER be involved in the community (in which case I don't feel bad for them if they cry out). IMO MMORPG should hold back some info like quest markers because its FORCES, repeat, FORCES people to engage in the community or aimlessly wander. I don't mind a star or little scribe icon next to a persons name, that means if you don't want a quest it likely won't be seen, just don't act like their is no consequence to adding markers into the game, its just another thing that is taken away from the community. More info you put in within the game world for people to see, the more apathetic the community gets to helping others because they just 'assume' (wrongly I might add) that all the info is there and the people asking questions are just dumb or lazy. Of course that can still happen anyways, but those people would likely never help anyone ever anyways. Instead of quest markers I'd rather they spend the time making it easier to communicate with other people. The chat system, linkshell system, and for that matter a complete lack of search, all should have been rectified before they went the quest marker route.
#182 Feb 26 2011 at 8:35 PM Rating: Decent
6 posts
Well here's to hoping they will add some other form of transport soon. I think what they are doing is great! But not what i wanted at a fast enough pace.I wish they would focus on more content at the moment and put aside the game mechanics yes they are a bit dull at the moment, but it would throw some life into the game as we wait till the patch things up in other areas.
#183 Feb 26 2011 at 8:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I find this whole quest marker thing funny. More so when you look up at the top of alla, you see database and wiki. I would rather have a npc with quest marker than no quest at all. I promise everyone who is worried that it won't be the end of FFXIV and after a time you won't even notice or care that it's there, it'll just simple be.
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#184 Feb 26 2011 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
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croythegreat wrote:
I'll say it again, few people are asking people to go from NPC to NPC finding quests, that's what someone does who doesn't want to EVER be involved in the community (in which case I don't feel bad for them if they cry out). IMO MMORPG should hold back some info like quest markers because its FORCES, repeat, FORCES people to engage in the community or aimlessly wander.


As has been repeated--numerous times, by this point--people will just go look the information up on a database; it's not going to foster (much) community involvement, especially in an era where laptops and smartphones are becoming increasingly more common. It's a lot quicker and easier to get ALL of the information you could possibly need on a quest just by looking it up on one's iPhone than it is by /shouting in a crowded city hoping someone responds to your queries.

Honestly though, they could easily avoid having to mark NPCs by having important ones stand out, and they have a number of tools at their disposal that could serve as cues for a player to think to themselves "That guy looks important; maybe I'll talk to him": Fancy clothes, a nervous twitch, a hooded figure, sitting alone, being questioned by the local authorities, pacing the floor of a crowded marketplace while the rest of the people are standing around browsing the stalls, having an interesting name and/or title (though this is blatant 4th-wall breaking at this point), and much more.

Beyond that, all of the necessary information to complete a quest should be 1) present somewhere within the game, and 2) should be found somewhere along the path, or at least nearby. Additionally, I should be able to probe the NPC for additional information if I need it, so I don't have to resort to a guide or some other form of outside help.

Say that the puzzle I need to solve to complete a quest (or move onto the next part of the chain) requires me to know some obscure lore tidbit relating to the "elemental wheel", but I don't know anything about the "elemental wheel": the NPC that issued the quest should be able to give me a clue as to how to solve it--spouting off what little information they know of the subject--and/or perhaps direct me to someone or somewhere that would paint a clearer picture, like the one NPC in the whole game that explains the concept, or even better, a ruin somewhere filled with baddies to fight that has a detailed pictorial representation of the wheel and how it functions, perhaps as a mural on a wall or a circle of coloured stones; perhaps the architecture of this ruin ties in with the architecture of the ruin where the original puzzle is located.

By doing it this way, not only is the quest more engaging (at least the first time; perhaps every time if you aren't metagaming), it also cuts back on the need to seek outside sources, as not only is the information needed present in-game, but you can specifically ask for additional details if needed to better prepare yourself, just like a real person would before heading out to the Cave of **** That Wants To Devour My Flesh.
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Don't play that game anymore. :P
#185 Feb 26 2011 at 9:10 PM Rating: Good
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Abhy wrote:
4 pages of complaining of stuff that hasn't even been released yet? I know ff14 release was bad, but I don't think the majority of zam members will "ever" be happy w/ this game no matter what they add.

Fixed that for you. I'm enjoying the game as is, and will only enjoy it more after the next update.
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#186 Feb 26 2011 at 9:39 PM Rating: Decent
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112 posts
LMAO this game is officially dead to me. One step at a time they are turning this into every other game out there. They said 2 patches per month one with content and other with fixes and failed in the first month. The only people that will play this game now are those that have forgotten what a true MMORPG is, a game that you cannot enjoy if you only play for 30 mins a day. All I can say is welcome the the end of MMORPG's are some of us used to know and enjoy them, all you flamers are getting what you wanted, a game you will be able to walk around and show off your fancy pants to other people that will have the same fancy pants next week.
Ill check in again next month to laugh when the "content" update actually comes and why it is not easy enough to solo in 10 mins for this new awesome generation of gamers.

/em shakes his head in amazement that it has come to this.
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#187Quanta, Posted: Feb 26 2011 at 9:47 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention; I was too distracted by your chins wobbling.
#188 Feb 26 2011 at 9:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Since the latter issue seems to be about NPC icons. I am going to share my view. I have no problem with having npc issue quest throughout the world in an rpg or mmorpg for that matter. If done tastefully, it can add lots of immersion, mystery, and lore to the game.

Hanging icons or leaving bread crumbs pushing you towards non animated npcs who stand around doing nothing is non immersive. It implicates that you as an individual cannot solve the mystery for yourself. Also having rudimentary quest that have you start at point A and finish the quest at point B 5 feet from the starting npc is pointless. Quest that require you to zone a few feet away and reenter a zone, or quests that have you start at point A then go to point B then back to point A for the sake of timesink are tedious.

The most immersive, tasteful and sophisticated way to interact with quest npcs. Is visual animation and in game world graphic cues. Guild Wars 2 is sort of drawn of this concept. Except instead of individual npc quest. Your actions affect a broad amount of npcs. You don't read about a building burning down with children caught inside. You see it unfold on your screen. Their dynamic event system is going to be lots of fun to participate in. But you most likely won't remember individual npcs names so much due to the way dynamic events are done.

If GW2 is advancing the genre forward in public quests. Tor is advancing the genre in 100% fully voiced interactions and non repeated content from class to class from level 1 to cap. SE could be the the company that advances Dynamic NPC interaction in the mmorpg world.

Dynamic NPC Quest:
You approach a bar and upon approach. Immediately a guy comes stumbling out the door and rams into you crying. He then tells you that he lost his wifes engagement ring during a fight by the town well. If you choose to help. He tells you the well is over by such and such as the quest and information get updated in your quest journal. You go there and search the area for the ring then return it to the man. This type of quest gives you enough information to accomplish your goal with no outside guides. But also leaves some of the fun, lore, and mystery to the imagination. It sophiscated enough with no immersion breaking birght colored interfaces.

WoW did alot of good things for the genre as you know. But that game isn't the end all be all of mmorpg either. Npc quest is an area that could stand to be improved upon a great deal. SE has never been a follower only a leader, besides XI because it was their first foray into the mmo world. For anyone who pushes for SE to get complacent and only follow the leader as in quest for this instance. I will fight you every step of the way in debates until things are set in stone.

Edited, Feb 26th 2011 10:50pm by sandpark
#189 Feb 26 2011 at 9:50 PM Rating: Decent
11 posts
Abhy wrote:
4 pages of complaining of stuff that hasn't even been released yet? I know ff14 release was bad, but I don't think the majority of zam members will "ever" be happy w/ this game no matter what they add.


Eventually/ hopefully SE will launch enough content and game fixes soon to lower the frustration level and keep everyone busy so they aren't on ZAM complaining but are talking about content/ achievements. WE could do some FFXIV LRPing for the next few months while we wait for in-game content to add some out-of-game content like going to a local church and ring the bell. Create and dress up in the harlequin outfit and get a pet squirrel! (please just make a trail of peanuts behind you as you walk and pretend he's your pet, I do not encourage the maltreatment of our nutty friends):P

WE could go even further by starting a FFXIV flash mob of fans ringing the $$$$ out of those bells- quick Facebook group, tweeters get those birds chirping :)

Perhaps we can get SE to sponsor the event as well- think about it, we are adding more publicity by attracting any bell-ringers or enthusiasts out there to playing FFXIV; doorbell specialists, church bell musicians, metal smiths you name it we could introduce a whole new game community!



Edited, Feb 26th 2011 10:58pm by Hyzugi
#190 Feb 26 2011 at 9:56 PM Rating: Good
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495 posts
Quanta wrote:
croythegreat wrote:
I'll say it again, few people are asking people to go from NPC to NPC finding quests, that's what someone does who doesn't want to EVER be involved in the community (in which case I don't feel bad for them if they cry out). IMO MMORPG should hold back some info like quest markers because its FORCES, repeat, FORCES people to engage in the community or aimlessly wander.


As has been repeated--numerous times, by this point--people will just go look the information up on a database; it's not going to foster (much) community involvement, especially in an era where laptops and smartphones are becoming increasingly more common. It's a lot quicker and easier to get ALL of the information you could possibly need on a quest just by looking it up on one's iPhone than it is by /shouting in a crowded city hoping someone responds to your queries.

Honestly though, they could easily avoid having to mark NPCs by having important ones stand out, and they have a number of tools at their disposal that could serve as cues for a player to think to themselves "That guy looks important; maybe I'll talk to him": Fancy clothes, a nervous twitch, a hooded figure, sitting alone, being questioned by the local authorities, pacing the floor of a crowded marketplace while the rest of the people are standing around browsing the stalls, having an interesting name and/or title (though this is blatant 4th-wall breaking at this point), and much more.

Beyond that, all of the necessary information to complete a quest should be 1) present somewhere within the game, and 2) should be found somewhere along the path, or at least nearby. Additionally, I should be able to probe the NPC for additional information if I need it, so I don't have to resort to a guide or some other form of outside help.

Say that the puzzle I need to solve to complete a quest (or move onto the next part of the chain) requires me to know some obscure lore tidbit relating to the "elemental wheel", but I don't know anything about the "elemental wheel": the NPC that issued the quest should be able to give me a clue as to how to solve it--spouting off what little information they know of the subject--and/or perhaps direct me to someone or somewhere that would paint a clearer picture, like the one NPC in the whole game that explains the concept, or even better, a ruin somewhere filled with baddies to fight that has a detailed pictorial representation of the wheel and how it functions, perhaps as a mural on a wall or a circle of coloured stones; perhaps the architecture of this ruin ties in with the architecture of the ruin where the original puzzle is located.

By doing it this way, not only is the quest more engaging (at least the first time; perhaps every time if you aren't metagaming), it also cuts back on the need to seek outside sources, as not only is the information needed present in-game, but you can specifically ask for additional details if needed to better prepare yourself, just like a real person would before heading out to the Cave of sh*t That Wants To Devour My Flesh.


I actually agree with you, that's actually exactly what I wish they would do. Have the info readily available in game if you know where to look, but maybe hidden 'just' enough where there is a chance you might need help if you can't find it immediately. And when I mean quest markers hurt community involvement, I mean community as a collective whole, including sites like this. When you have trouble understanding some concepts or need more info on a quest, you either talk to your friends or check online, but the act of actually going online also means you are participating in the community because that means you will also check out the site and see other people talking. Or maybe you might find more info on some unusual subject matter you wouldn't even think to look in game... because its not 'obviously' available to you in game.

Those discoveries are actually my greatest joys of MMORPGs. The act of finding something interesting or hearing about a quest via chat, realizing you can't figure out what it is immediately, look it up (either by site or asking a friend) and then organically you start seeing other things you didn't think to look for before etc. In all honesty I don't care whether we have markers or not, I'm just tired of people accosting others who don't like markers as if their opinion is the only one in the world and it HAS to be right. There is a reaction to all changes even if subtle, and one of my biggest beefs with this game going forward, is the community is too apathetic and socially recluse right now. There are a lot of reasons for this and markers isn't the main one (No global search, horrible UI for Linkshell/guilds and no mail box), but it certainly doesn't help it.

Edited, Feb 26th 2011 10:57pm by croythegreat
#191 Feb 26 2011 at 9:56 PM Rating: Decent
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112 posts
Quanta wrote:
elevencharle wrote:
LMAO this game is officially dead to me. One step at a time they are turning this into every other game out there. They said 2 patches per month one with content and other with fixes and failed in the first month. The only people that will play this game now are those that have forgotten what a true MMORPG is, a game that you cannot enjoy if you only play for 30 mins a day. All I can say is welcome the the end of MMORPG's are some of us used to know and enjoy them, all you flamers are getting what you wanted, a game you will be able to walk around and show off your fancy pants to other people that will have the same fancy pants next week.
Ill check in again next month to laugh when the "content" update actually comes and why it is not easy enough to solo in 10 mins for this new awesome generation of gamers.

/em shakes his head in amazement that it has come to this.


I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention; I was too distracted by your chins wobbling.

BTW, that's a lovely neckbeard you've got there. :)



I am sorry that you feel the need say stupid stuff for no apparent reason, but thanks for the attempt at insulting me it made me laugh a little.
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#192 Feb 26 2011 at 11:42 PM Rating: Good
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croythegreat wrote:
In all honesty I don't care whether we have markers or not, I'm just tired of people accosting others who don't like markers as if their opinion is the only one in the world and it HAS to be right.


The issue I see with folks who absolutely do not want markers in the game--and don't want anyone else to have them, probably because it wouldn't be "fair"--is that their absence, along with quest obscurity and obfuscation, makes it out to look like they want to feel needed, they want to feel wanted, they want to feel special, and that's not what the game is for. The game is here primarily to entertain as broad an audience as possible, and that includes the guy who's sick of scanning databases on a website outside of the game and just wants enough information in the game to complete his objectives and enjoy himself.

Wanting to stand out is fine and par for the course in any game. However, quest obfuscation and obscurity is not how any game should distinguish itself: I'd prefer skill challenges, as those are the kind of challenges that actually matter in the grand scheme of things.

elevencharle wrote:
Quanta wrote:
elevencharle wrote:
LMAO this game is officially dead to me. One step at a time they are turning this into every other game out there. They said 2 patches per month one with content and other with fixes and failed in the first month. The only people that will play this game now are those that have forgotten what a true MMORPG is, a game that you cannot enjoy if you only play for 30 mins a day. All I can say is welcome the the end of MMORPG's are some of us used to know and enjoy them, all you flamers are getting what you wanted, a game you will be able to walk around and show off your fancy pants to other people that will have the same fancy pants next week.
Ill check in again next month to laugh when the "content" update actually comes and why it is not easy enough to solo in 10 mins for this new awesome generation of gamers.

/em shakes his head in amazement that it has come to this.


I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention; I was too distracted by your chins wobbling.

BTW, that's a lovely neckbeard you've got there. :)



I am sorry that you feel the need say stupid stuff for no apparent reason, but thanks for the attempt at insulting me it made me laugh a little.


Hey, as long as I entertained, I'm happy. :)

Seriously though, your attitude regarding the current state of MMOs did strike me as something a neckbeard would actually say. While I can agree somewhat that the rewards are getting handed out too fast these days, I choose to ignore it because MMOs are still so primitive in terms of gameplay, AI, and content delivery compared to their single-player and multi-player brethren. When you combine this with a heavy emphasis on grind, along with other barriers designed to keep you playing and paying longer, you end up with a game that is massively unfun, and only obtains and maintains users because of the allure of playing with thousands of users simultaneously in a persistent world. That's an MMO's primary appeal, and it shouldn't be; the emphasis of an MMO should be on its gameplay, like any other game, but it's not, because they're terrible.

When MMOs can compete with the likes of Dead Space or TF2 in terms of fun, I'll happily grind; until then, keep the grind to a minimum.
____________________________
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Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#193 Feb 27 2011 at 12:00 AM Rating: Good
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elevencharle wrote:
I am sorry that you feel the need say stupid stuff for no apparent reason,


The irony is almost tangible.
#194 Feb 27 2011 at 12:40 AM Rating: Decent
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291 posts
Going to try to be more useful by creating a thread in the Feedback Forum regarding innovative or varied ways to trigger quests without having to hunt for them....

Back to your regularly scheduled civil discourse.
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#195 Feb 27 2011 at 6:38 AM Rating: Default
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@ Quanta so because I enjoy heavy grind based game such as ffxi "before the last few updates" then I must be a fat and hairy loser sitting at my PC for 18 hours a day? That is the most ignorant statement I have ever heard. Just because someone likes a different style of game and expects that from the only producer that has one currently running in good standings does not mean that they are wrong it just means they like something you do not. We both must like to play MMO's so we both more than likely spent more time then we should doing it only difference is when I find a game I do not like I move on I do not stick around and try to pretend it good just because of who made it. In other words you are part of the "New generation" of gamers that is killing what MMO's were when a lot of us got involved in them and now find it harder and harder to find decent games.

And I know if I were to just move on I would not be in these forums but I still have hope for this game, or at least did instill SE failed at there first attempt at 2 updates a month so i will be checking in and adding my thoughts when I feel something is funny enough to address.
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#196 Feb 27 2011 at 10:34 AM Rating: Default
2 posts
I would really hope the quest markers werenothing more than a color change to the npc's name..I am very glad to see them though..Finding gratification in going on a website and looking up info in a game your playing is 1. Absurd 2. Just makes me plainly feel like a cheating scrub when i have to go to website outside the game to get hints and cheats. 3 If i dont use outside references to find where the quest are ect. and i spend an eternity looking for them" that is just boring" I like my game to be difficult and challenging.This means inb every fashion of the game accept trivial things. That would be like trying to release a shooter now days and call it a hardcore shooter because they made it to where you have to go online and look up what order you need to go thru 8 menus to pull out your weapon, then go thru more menus to gain access to fire you gun Ps dont make the things that are suppose to be simple to make the game feel like an extesnion of yourself- a daunting task..Rather make the fights and quest a daunting task..11 had both. it was the difficulty of finishing the quest thati loved, not looking for a stupid npc for hours, pulling my hair out, that was dumb and outdated for a reason.
#197 Feb 27 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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elevencharle wrote:
@ Quanta so because I enjoy heavy grind based game such as ffxi "before the last few updates" then I must be a fat and hairy loser sitting at my PC for 18 hours a day? That is the most ignorant statement I have ever heard.


Nah. I'm saying you have poor taste. I'd peg you as the dude that goes on forums and cries about how "games are too easy these days" and that "developers don't know how to make good games anymore" before he fires up his NES emulator and plays some "games that are actually good", as if the last 20+ years of development advances were a bad thing. That dude's idea of a "good game" is one made by a developer who doesn't have a ******* clue how to make one and just throws random crap together, doesn't really test it thoroughly, and then puts it out to market for stupid kids to buy.

Quote:
Just because someone likes a different style of game and expects that from the only producer that has one currently running in good standings does not mean that they are wrong it just means they like something you do not. We both must like to play MMO's so we both more than likely spent more time then we should doing it only difference is when I find a game I do not like I move on I do not stick around and try to pretend it good just because of who made it.


I'm not even playing; I'm just keeping an eye on FFXIV to see what happens. It's my hope that SE can make something passable, but that's probably not going to happen.

Quote:
In other words you are part of the "New generation" of gamers that is killing what MMO's were when a lot of us got involved in them and now find it harder and harder to find decent games.


I remember having tons of fun playing on my uncle's Atari 2600 and my brother's NES back in the 80s. However, I don't glorify that era of gaming because, in hindsight, most of the games back then were absolute garbage, ripe with trial and error gameplay, guide dang its, and other cheap **** a developer can throw in to make their game frustratingly hard for a minimal effort.

Similarly, I don't glorify the older MMOs, because while I had fun with the ones I played, I can recognize that they were **** compared to what's on offer today, even though today's offerings are still pretty ******:

- The base AI of every game is still garbage, stuck in the 90s with enemies simply making a beeline towards a player instead of trying to execute more complex maneuvers like flanking.
- Combat is still garbage, with back-and-forth, AKA "stand still until one of us dies", being the predominant setup. We've had multi-player games where you can run and hit things in real time over the Internet since ******* 1993, and yet we still cling to MUD design paradigms like back-and-forth combat? Come on, now. Surely the prediction algorithms of today can meet the needs of MMO developers.

As MMO gamers, we shouldn't be putting up with **** games, let alone asking for them. We should be demanding that developers improve their games so that grinding is less a chore and more a blessing ("you want me to kill 1000 rabbits? **** YEAH!"). We should be demanding AI that will challenge players rather than simply relying on stat discrepancies to make things tougher. Combat should be more dynamic and fun, where movement, positioning, and use of the environment are vital to success, and attacks are fast and on-demand, rather than relying on auto-attack or limiting even basic attacks by a resource metre. It's not going to happen if we keep asking for garbage, though.
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#198 Feb 27 2011 at 6:17 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I remember having tons of fun playing on my uncle's Atari 2600 and my brother's NES back in the 80s. However, I don't glorify that era of gaming because, in hindsight, most of the games back then were absolute garbage, ripe with trial and error gameplay, guide dang its, and other cheap sh*t a developer can throw in to make their game frustratingly hard for a minimal effort.

Similarly, I don't glorify the older MMOs, because while I had fun with the ones I played, I can recognize that they were sh*t compared to what's on offer today, even though today's offerings are still pretty sh*tty:

- The base AI of every game is still garbage, stuck in the 90s with enemies simply making a beeline towards a player instead of trying to execute more complex maneuvers like flanking.
- Combat is still garbage, with back-and-forth, AKA "stand still until one of us dies", being the predominant setup. We've had multi-player games where you can run and hit things in real time over the Internet since @#%^ing 1993, and yet we still cling to MUD design paradigms like back-and-forth combat? Come on, now. Surely the prediction algorithms of today can meet the needs of MMO developers.

As MMO gamers, we shouldn't be putting up with sh*t games, let alone asking for them. We should be demanding that developers improve their games so that grinding is less a chore and more a blessing ("you want me to kill 1000 rabbits? @#%^ YEAH!"). We should be demanding AI that will challenge players rather than simply relying on stat discrepancies to make things tougher. Combat should be more dynamic and fun, where movement, positioning, and use of the environment are vital to success, and attacks are fast and on-demand, rather than relying on auto-attack or limiting even basic attacks by a resource metre. It's not going to happen if we keep asking for garbage, though.


this, a hundred thousand times this.
i personally tried to pick up breath of fire 2 emulated on my phone, but im like "if only this game had _____ feature it would be soooooooooo much more fun..." and i lose interest.
Edited, Feb 27th 2011 7:18pm by pixelpop

Edited, Feb 27th 2011 7:20pm by pixelpop
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#199 Feb 28 2011 at 2:14 AM Rating: Decent
I has cheese, everyone else seems to have whine, lets party!

Seriously tho, things that are written down may not fully explain how they will work in practice, so while everyone seems to be unhappy about one thing or another lets give SE some kudos here, at least there trying.
#200 Feb 28 2011 at 10:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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2,214 posts
Markers or not, I will still talk to the chocobo guy every week (like I have since the pubic beta). I will still go to the hamlets and hidden towns when I have time and talk with the NPCs there. Because I like to know the history and the story behind the game. For example, I just finished my rank 30 gladiator quest. The information in that quest is directly linked back to a hidden town in Thanlan where they feel disenfranchised from Ul'dah, and you get a feel of conflict between them. I wouldn't have known that when doing the quest if I hadn't talked to the people there.

The only area I don't really have a feel for yet is Limsa. Which is ironic to me considering it was the first town.

I do feel that there are not enough quests now to make the world feel complete, but, what is there is tangible, and the current NPCs do add to it.

I find it sad that people don't feel the need or interest in talking with the non-quest NPCs as they still contribute to the story and to the world.
#201 Feb 28 2011 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
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557 posts
rfolkker wrote:
I find it sad that people don't feel the need or interest in talking with the non-quest NPCs as they still contribute to the story and to the world.

I love talking to NPCs, but in an MMO, when you're playing 20, 30, 40 hours a week for years on end, talking to same NPCs gets pretty dull. If SE does a good job updating the dialog of NPCs, so that as you progress through the game they continually will say new things, then I could see it being worth it to talk to a few dozen NPCs to find a quest. But if that NPC says "I AM ERROR" every bloody time I try to talk to him for years on end, that's going to rub me the wrong way.
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