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Battle of the Mages: Conjurer VS ThaumaturgeFollow

#1 Feb 28 2011 at 3:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Discuss!

From what I've learned from playing both classes

Quote:

THM
-Healer: Sacrifice's regen trait gives it a slight edge over Cure, ironically enough.
-Debuff: Poison, Paralyze, Absorbs, etc are awesome for NMs.
-Shadowsear, a powerful weaponskill gives it the ability to deal a good amount of damage in between heals and debuffs.
-20% increase in defense while casting.
-Siphon MP and Stygian Spikes theoretically give you unlimited MP, allowing for far more soloing potential.
-Conal AoE

CON
-Back up heals: gives slightly more HP per cure than Sacrifice, so it may help in some sticky situations.
-Buffs: Protect/shell/spikes/stoneskin = <3
-Nukes: With a proper stats, CON makes a descent powerhouse, but unfortunately sacrifices (pun intended) a good amount of VIT and MND to do so.
-Fastcast. 20% increase in casting speed
-Circular AoE



I'm a blackmage at heart, so I found it a chore healing as CON. THM makes that soooo much easier because of the huuuuge Conal AOE. I can just spam Sacrifice on myself and the entire party gets.
Another thing I'm excited about ranking up THM is for Shadowsear, which does tons of damage, but its a bummer that you can't use it as a CON.

Generally, I use my CON. Currently, I'm statted at 50 VIT/MND and 135 INT/PIE. I do around 100-200 on NMs consistently, usually hitting 250+ with profundity. Its a bit underwhelming unfortunately, but I'm hoping SE modifies stats soon to make it more noticeable.

I'm hoping SE implements Arcanist and Mystic soon, because I'm excited to see what they do. And hopefully plans for a Summoner class :3


So yeah. Through your experience, which of the two mage classes has everyone been enjoying more? Does it bother anyone that there aren't any gloves that are beneficial for mages, and the Harlequin's Belt has slightly inferior stats to an R31 belt, yet it costs 200,000 times as much?
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#2 Feb 28 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
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I always was a fan of mages back in FFxi. I got to FFXIV and my expectations of mage classes were vastly distorted. Only two classes to choose from and both are a mixed bag of tricks, but that's another thread.

But, from my exp from playing I've partied with a lot more THM as opposed to CON. during grinding and behests. This is probably due to the big cone radius as you've mentioned.

I think a lot of the pricing doesn't make sense right now. I think SE needs to take off a 0 place off of every gil reward and item price. So, if the reward was 2,000 GIl make it 200gil. Everyone is going to have MIllions of gil sooner or later. And in a healthy economy EVERYONE can't be millionaires. Every economy needs it's poor people AND its mega millionaires. Imagine if everyone in the US was a multi-millionaire, gas prices would be well over $10 a gallon and bread would cost $100. And we'd probably wipe our butts with it like we do in FFXIV.

I think I had 1 million gil only once in FFXI and I loved it. That feeling made me feel like it was REAL money that I cherished. I may have cared more about gil than how many dollars I had in the bank because Gil was much harder to get. So, really that 200,000 Gil is really chump change, I wouldn't think twice about spending that amount. Would I have ever said that about FFXI, H E double hockey sticks NO. Sorry to have talked more about gil, I think that just interests me more than a couple blended mage classes.

Edited, Feb 28th 2011 4:36pm by SplatterPattern
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#3 Feb 28 2011 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
I like THM.

As far as any changes coming up to the two classes goes...

I would make THM the BLM and CON the WHM. Give THM the elemental spells. Give CON Banish and other WHM-esque spells including Sacrifice. Sacrifice can be renamed and HP cost removed, to balance it halve the HP restoration while keeping the regen effect and maybe extend it's duration. I would say to keep the debuffs balanced to give an incentive to have both present in a PT. In addition switch the AoE types around, giving THM the FFXI-esque radial AoE, and giving CON the Conal AoE. A few tweaks and it would work just fine.

May **** off a few people that leveled one more than the other, but people will get over it. Could always give players an option to swap the two classes ranks in that case.

Edited, Feb 28th 2011 4:46pm by StateAlchemist2
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#4 Feb 28 2011 at 3:46 PM Rating: Default
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SplatterPattern wrote:
I always was a fan of mages back in FFxi. I got to FFXIV and my expectations of mage classes were vastly distorted. Only two classes to choose from and both are a mixed bag of tricks, but that's another thread.

But, from my exp from playing I've partied with a lot more THM as opposed to CON. during grinding and behests. This is probably due to the big cone radius as you've mentioned.

I think a lot of the pricing doesn't make sense right now. I think SE needs to take off a 0 place off of every gil reward and item price. So, if the reward was 2,000 GIl make it 200gil. Everyone is going to have MIllions of gil sooner or later. And in a healthy economy EVERYONE can't be millionaires. Every economy needs it's poor people AND its mega millionaires. Imagine if everyone in the US was a multi-millionaire, gas prices would be well over $10 a gallon and bread would cost $100. And we'd probably wipe our butts with it like we do in FFXIV.

I think I had 1 million gil only once in FFXI and I loved it. That feeling made me feel like it was REAL money that I cherished. I may have cared more about gil than how many dollars I had in the bank because Gil was much harder to get. So, really that 200,000 Gil is really chump change, I wouldn't think twice about spending that amount. Would I have ever said that about FFXI, H E double hockey sticks NO. Sorry to have talked more about gil, I think that just interests me more than a couple blended mage classes.

Edited, Feb 28th 2011 4:36pm by SplatterPattern



Tell that to the japanese, you realize a bowl of ramen in japan cost like 500 yen? (like 5 bucks USD)

It isn't rare for an average household to have 1 million yen.
#5 Feb 28 2011 at 3:48 PM Rating: Default
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The way I see it...

Conjurer = Carebear built. A party's best friend.

Thaumaturge = I will destroy you and your whole entire party with my AoE spells.



Both have their places. :)
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#6 Feb 28 2011 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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wrongfeifong wrote:
SplatterPattern wrote:
I always was a fan of mages back in FFxi. I got to FFXIV and my expectations of mage classes were vastly distorted. Only two classes to choose from and both are a mixed bag of tricks, but that's another thread.

But, from my exp from playing I've partied with a lot more THM as opposed to CON. during grinding and behests. This is probably due to the big cone radius as you've mentioned.

I think a lot of the pricing doesn't make sense right now. I think SE needs to take off a 0 place off of every gil reward and item price. So, if the reward was 2,000 GIl make it 200gil. Everyone is going to have MIllions of gil sooner or later. And in a healthy economy EVERYONE can't be millionaires. Every economy needs it's poor people AND its mega millionaires. Imagine if everyone in the US was a multi-millionaire, gas prices would be well over $10 a gallon and bread would cost $100. And we'd probably wipe our butts with it like we do in FFXIV.

I think I had 1 million gil only once in FFXI and I loved it. That feeling made me feel like it was REAL money that I cherished. I may have cared more about gil than how many dollars I had in the bank because Gil was much harder to get. So, really that 200,000 Gil is really chump change, I wouldn't think twice about spending that amount. Would I have ever said that about FFXI, H E double hockey sticks NO. Sorry to have talked more about gil, I think that just interests me more than a couple blended mage classes.

Edited, Feb 28th 2011 4:36pm by SplatterPattern



Tell that to the japanese, you realize a bowl of ramen in japan cost like 500 yen? (like 5 bucks USD)

It isn't rare for an average household to have 1 million yen.


Yeah but in Japan Ramen Noodles is the next best thing since Sliced Bread.

Our StarBucks = their Ramen Noodle ;)

Oh, and they have more money because Japanese have better work ethics than us spoiled western'ers.
Oh, and they probably budget money way better than most Americans can and don't bust out their "plastic cards" evertime that have a impulse to do so. And finally, Japan is a WAAAYY smaller country than the USA, so the "mean" SHOULD be a higher figure.

Chow now
Edited, Feb 28th 2011 5:10pm by SplatterPattern

Edited, Feb 28th 2011 5:16pm by SplatterPattern
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#7 Feb 28 2011 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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wrongfeifong wrote:

Tell that to the japanese, you realize a bowl of ramen in japan cost like 500 yen? (like 5 bucks USD)

It isn't rare for an average household to have 1 million yen.


Just being nitpicky, but if you look around you can get a good bowl of ramen for 300 yen, and a lot of the shops selling donburi (rice bowls with meat toppings) are competing fiercely so their base prices are around 250 yen. :P Mmmmm..... donburi.... *goes to Sukiya for a 3 cheese beef bowl*
#8 Feb 28 2011 at 4:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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I kinda felt that Con was the more basic, while Thaums were a bit more complicated all around, but still doing more or less the same things, just fancier.
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#9 Feb 28 2011 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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you missed blood rite 1 and 2.

I don't see why thm couldn't nuke as well as a con or a con heal as well as a thm honestly. They are basically the same job with different interchangeable skill sets.
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#10 Feb 28 2011 at 6:49 PM Rating: Good
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Just FYI (pre staff changes and new game direction) the description for musketeer and arcanist were already implimented in the game. i mean full detailed descriptions of what they do can be found in one of the dats, its more than likely accurate (at the time) because the same descriptions for current classes match the .dat descriptions aswell.
im not talking about the list of possible classes found in the dats posted in the forums, none of those classes have descriptions of what they do, only arcanist and musketeer from that list did.

i didnt care at all about musketeer since i dont like pirates, but arcanist was interesting.
it essentially uses devices and gadgets imbued with elemental magic to deal damage, buff the party, and enfeeble enemies. and IIRC the devices are shot out the top of their specialized staves, kinda like grenade launchers i guess.

and ps
im not really happy with either mage class, i think the spells need to be reassigned between the two to make an all around WHM and an all around BLM, seems like thats their new direction so heres to two fingers crossed.
example. profundity could be for cures and enhancements potency and blood right could be for nukes and enfeebles potency, it just makes so much more sense to me.

Edited, Feb 28th 2011 7:53pm by pixelpop
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#11 Feb 28 2011 at 6:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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THM spells should do more damage as they are sacrificing HP and MP for the big ones. (pun intended)

CON is really a druid of sorts, although its not far off from having the heal/buff set that WHM has. Honestly, with the name Conjurer you would assume Summoner, but it has zero summoning spells (or utility spells that would match that magic school)

Sorry State Alchy, but you sound like your swapping 80% of the job's abilities, and having that radical of a change would indeed anger people who only leveled one of them.

Most of my spells suck vs NMs right now. (due to my rank) Although with a high PIE, and the reasonable certainty that DoTs scale off HP, Poison II and the like are great to keep up.

Edited, Feb 28th 2011 7:55pm by SpelunkerOne
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#12 Feb 28 2011 at 6:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Something else to add to your breakdown:

-Thm get access to better gear (Mitts/Leggings/Actons have significantly higher Def, MP, and HP than Con alternatives. Sure, Con can technically equip this gear, but not without def penalties)

-Con get access to better weapons (Jade Crook has 151 Mag Acc / 145 Mag Pot vs 148 / 128 for the Decorated Silver Scepter or 135 / 145 for the brands)

But honestly I feel SE missed an opportunity with these two classes...

Before the game was released, I thought the Con symbol was a leafy branch and the Thm symbol was a thorny one, which I thought was a pretty cool way to distinguish the two mages.

I imagined Cons as elementalists/healers, and Thms as the mage equivalent of Dark Knights. I thought Thms would return portions of the damage they received back to the mob (ie thorns), and deal damage/buff allies by damaging/weakening themselves.

In the end the two mages ended up being far too similar for my liking...
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#13 Feb 28 2011 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
SpelunkerOne wrote:
Sorry State Alchy, but you sound like your swapping 80% of the job's abilities, and having that radical of a change would indeed anger people who only leveled one of them.


Unfortunately, yes, a lot of spells would have to be swapped around. Regardless of how angry that may make some, they should be more angry that it wasn't done to begin with. The original idea was great and all, but we don't need two classes that do the same thing just as well as the other for the most part(healing) and poorly do the only things that make them different(debuff/dd/whatever). Will people be angry, sure. Question is will their anger be directed at the original problem, or the solution.

edit: spelling

Edited, Feb 28th 2011 8:02pm by StateAlchemist2
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#14 Feb 28 2011 at 7:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
In the end the two mages ended up being far too similar for my liking...


i agree, at this point i think id even accept exaggerations made to the two classes to help destinguish them from eachother.
maybe sacrifice heals alot less on its initial heal, but greaten its regen aspect? nukes actually nuke, AM becomes something mobs should fear? maybe make absorb spells a lot more potent but adjust their cast/recast/MP/and active time?
idk, i just feel they are on two seperate sides of the line, but only by inches from eachother.

Quote:
Unforutantely, yes, a lot of spells would have to be swapped around. Regardless of how angry that may make some, they should be more angry that it wasn't done to begin with. The original idea was great and all, but we dont need two classes that do the same thing just as well as the other for the most part(healing) and poorly do the only things that make them different(debuff/dd/whatever). Will people be angry, sure. Question is will thier anger be directed at the original problem, or the solution.


awesomely said, good job.

Edited, Feb 28th 2011 8:03pm by pixelpop
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#15 Feb 28 2011 at 7:04 PM Rating: Decent
pixelpop wrote:
i just feel they are on two seperate sides of the line, but only by inches from eachother.


I love what you said here. I once described it almost exactly the same way:

"CON and THM are like two people sitting back to back on top of an 80' wall. You know just how different they could be if they would just fall into their respective roles."
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#16 Feb 28 2011 at 7:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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I like thm way more and have always considered it the WHM of this game hence why i picked it. Well actually its more like..
CON =RDM/BLM
THM =RDM/WHM

but i hope THM does not end up a melee dps with the elemental spells.
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#17 Feb 28 2011 at 8:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Does anyone know how to maximize damage with nukes?

Currently I've been using a Jade Crook +2(gathering mats for +3), Profundity2/BloodRite2 Thunder, Battle Regiments, Astral Debuff, and shock.

I haven't really found a need to use Thunder II :3
INT/PIE are at 135 each
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#18 Feb 28 2011 at 9:35 PM Rating: Good
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This definitely leads into one strength of the Conjurer.

Rau:

You need to exploit the weaknesses of the specific NM (or any mob really). Water vs Dodore or Earth vs Blotched Mogrels for example. Also you are ~40 points off the INT cap (and not even sure how soft/hard the cap is)

Its funny, but I have better luck DDing as a THM using (opposing) elemental nukes on mobs vs Scourge/Banish. (with One with Nature trait). Not to mention I can keep Shadowsear loaded, which is the best use of Chainspell.

Edited, Feb 28th 2011 10:49pm by SpelunkerOne
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#19 Feb 28 2011 at 9:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Interesting thread! I tried both, but I went with THM as my main. At first I hated the conal AOE . . . particularly when in a party with archers. xD But now I really love it, I can AOE heal almost everyone while staying far enough away from the mob!

Many of the debuffs seem kind of useless for "everyday" use, and I have often envied the awesome nukes I see CON's throwing around. But for NM's and harder enemies, debuffs can actually be helpful. And Stygian Spikes is nice, but it is not at all helpful when you're fighting a really tough critter in a party and never once get hit! CON buffs are another thing that made me think twice when choosing to focus on THM, they are really useful.

I am looking forward to seeing what SE does with the current mage classes. I do hope that I don't one day find my THM's healing ability downgraded, since I think THM is an excellent healer. Honestly I like the idea of playing a White Mage better than a Black Mage though, and I probably would have gone with CON if not for the THM AOE.
#20 Feb 28 2011 at 11:17 PM Rating: Default
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THM FTW
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#21ViolaLion, Posted: Feb 28 2011 at 11:25 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) So when the **** did this thread get so turned around that you three idiots need to argue about who is more japanese?
#22 Feb 28 2011 at 11:45 PM Rating: Good
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THM screams RDM in every way possible, yet I have never seen anyone say anything but "turn THM into WHM or BLM"

THM has the HP/MP regen abilities like RDM did, it has all the good enfeebling spells that RDM did, and it has the soloability RDM did. If you haven't seen the now old videos of THMs soloing Dodore and Hautpox (it's not so hard given that Emulate is ridiculous), you might start to see just how much like RDM THM is.
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#23 Mar 01 2011 at 12:58 AM Rating: Excellent
LateReg wrote:
THM screams RDM in every way possible, yet I have never seen anyone say anything but "turn THM into WHM or BLM"

THM has the HP/MP regen abilities like RDM did, it has all the good enfeebling spells that RDM did, and it has the soloability RDM did. If you haven't seen the now old videos of THMs soloing Dodore and Hautpox (it's not so hard given that Emulate is ridiculous), you might start to see just how much like RDM THM is.


I think I can provide an insight on that. Red Mage, in a way, was a failure of a class from the very beginning. It posed a threat to the WHM because of Refresh/Convert, making RDM the more ideal Healer/Buffer/Debuffer. At the same time it snuffed BLMs role in the party as a DD/Debuffer, since RDM could debuff better than a BLM and still provide some DD using both Magic(Mostly DoT) and Melee(yes, I said melee, I don't care how many people say a RDM shouldn't melee, I did it from 1-75 and still was able to main heal, debuff, buff, etc...). BLM could obviously DD beter than RDM, but because BLM's hate would spike, and because they were so squishy, a lot of parties passed them up for a melee job, forcing them to form "burn parties" (5 BLM + 1 RDM typically) to level quickly. The eventual result (before the release of Scholar) was the exile of BLMs and WHMs from XP grinding PTs in favor of an MP efficient healer/debuffer/buffer that never needed to rest MP.

This time around I think SE was concerned about releasing 3 starter mage classes, fearing a similar thing could happen later on. Instead, they made THM, a Heaven-and-**** style job that uses raw Umbral(or Dark) magic and Astral (or Light) magic. Combined with abilities fitting the theme (Bio/Dia, Sacrifice(Healing magic, but at the cost of your own HP making them useless when your HP is low), and an array of Absorbing spells) they made a class with DD/Debuffing/Healing potential. Initiation warrants mentioning as it allows THM to transfer up to 4 Buffs from the THM to another player. (For example the THM could draw ACC/ATT/DEF/EVA from a monster and give the absorbed stats to the Tank.) They made CON an elementalist. Giving access to the various element specific spells and Ancient Magic as well as the popular party buffs Protect/Shell/Stoneskin. Along with the Cure spells, CON is more of an ideal healer (assuming you couldn't cross abilities) and damage dealer, with its ability to abuse a specific elemental weakness of a monster. They further divided RDM-esque abilites amongst the two mage classes by giving CON Fastcast and Chainspell. Now with the cross-class skill swapping THM and CON can be nearly duplicate in any party as far as dealing damage, debuffing, buffing, healing. This is the root of the new problem though. By trying to avoid the Red Mage syndrome from FFXI, they created a new "virus" so to speak.

What we are left with is a BLM that isn't a BLM, and a WHM that isn't a WHM. Instead we have two RDMs with a different type of AoE, and neither one is really as good as it should be. Both THM and CON are lacking in the "impressive" damage department with their high rank abilities, and effectiveness of their debuffs, (they don't ever last long), on the other hand, buffs have a short duration, forcing a constant recast of these abilities. CON ability to remove status effects is almost completely pointless because fights don't last long, and neither do the status effects. I have heard many times from people that they don't bother to try to remove effects because by the time they cast the Blinda or whatever, the effect has already worn off.

One other little tid bit that seems to make the two near carbon-copy mage classes is the lack of differentiation between single-target and AoE spells. Single Target spells in FFXI were mor potent then they're AoE counter parts in most cases, and the AoEs cost more MP. Currently ST and AoE cost an equal amount of MP and the effects are not recuded regardless of the number of targets (as far as heals/Siphon MP goes at least).

To wrap this all up, SE feared a RDM class pushing aside any BLM or WHM class, and so divied it up between the two and ended up balancing the two jobs -too well-.

Given the current state of the two, it will take some shifting of abilities, and maybe some more strict MP costs, and perhaps a differentiation between ST and AoE spells, to give the two classes a distinguishing role in the party.

For now however, if I needed a healer in a party all I need to say is "I need a mage." Although I guess it is still slightly better than saying "I need a RDM." and having the BLMs and WHMs Shoop da Whoop the forums with "Why can't I get a party?" threads.

Well I am done firin' meh lazor. I am sure some will agree and disagree, but I hope this at least brings a little light to the topic, and inspires some good discussions, even if I don't please everyone with my opinion.
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#24 Mar 01 2011 at 1:22 AM Rating: Good
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MP Costs and Hate adjustment :3

its too easy to be a mage currently.

Edited, Mar 1st 2011 2:23am by levelxplane
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#25 Mar 01 2011 at 1:24 AM Rating: Good
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Really good post.

I still see THM as more RDM than CON is (apart from them randomly giving them Chainspell, etc)... and I don't necessarily agree with everything you said about how they're balanced. Maybe as healers this early in the game in grind PTs that's true to some extent, but THM is clearly better even still. Cure II is good, but Sac II heals for the same, virtually, and gives you a 50-60 tic regen? It's soooo much better, and Sac III only makes it even more crazy. Then you have that RDM Blink/Phalanx tanking aspect with Emulate which is just insane. Dodore+Minions hit you for next to nothing, THM out-tanks Glad by a long shot seeing as THM is a one-man-army in that scenario. Same thing applies to any future NMs/normals who cast spells/abilities that share their same attribute, even right now there are only a few relevant exceptions (Raptors using Fire, Efts using Lightning).

So my vote would definitely be for them to convert THM to RDM if anything, I just don't see it being BLM or WHM at all (even though it is closer to BLM)

Also, I think you were a little confused about the old BLM PTs, it wasn't 5 BLM + 1 RDM, that was horribly inefficient seeing as Refresh was single target. What you're thinking of is the old 5 BLM + BRD PTs :) Nothing topped AoE refresh, and BRD sleep pulling crabs!
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#26 Mar 01 2011 at 1:31 AM Rating: Good
LateReg wrote:
Really good post.

I still see THM as more RDM than CON is (apart from them randomly giving them Chainspell, etc)... and I don't necessarily agree with everything you said about how they're balanced. Maybe as healers this early in the game in grind PTs that's true to some extent, but THM is clearly better even still. Cure II is good, but Sac II heals for the same, virtually, and gives you a 50-60 tic regen? It's soooo much better, and Sac III only makes it even more crazy. Then you have that RDM Blink/Phalanx tanking aspect with Emulate which is just insane. Dodore+Minions hit you for next to nothing, THM out-tanks Glad by a long shot seeing as THM is a one-man-army in that scenario. Same thing applies to any future NMs/normals who cast spells/abilities that share their same attribute, even right now there are only a few relevant exceptions (Raptors using Fire, Efts using Lightning).

So my vote would definitely be for them to convert THM to RDM if anything, I just don't see it being BLM or WHM at all (even though it is closer to BLM)

Also, I think you were a little confused about the old BLM PTs, it wasn't 5 BLM + 1 RDM, that was horribly inefficient seeing as Refresh was single target. What you're thinking of is the old 5 BLM + BRD PTs :) Nothing topped AoE refresh, and BRD sleep pulling crabs!

THanks for the correction on the blm burn pts, i knew it was brd but still had rdm on the brain.
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#27 Mar 01 2011 at 6:28 AM Rating: Good
Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
SE feared a RDM class pushing aside any BLM or WHM class, and so divied it up between the two and ended up balancing the two jobs -too well-.


Interesting. Too well balanced - a contradiction of terms?

As far as casting the spells on a melee class Sacrifice > Cure. That regen is no joke and it ticks as you get damaged. To me, getting THM to 20 for Sacrifice II was a melee class prerequisite.

Traditionally, debuffs are the most effective spells for party based combat. You get the effect of the spell time the number of members x the number of attacks while the debuff is active. That amounts to some ridiculous amount of damage for the time/MP spent on one spell. I wonder if Absorb DEF lands on NMs?

Lowering defense, by say 10%, with 10+ melee in the party amounts to more damage than a huge nuke. If you can follow that up with a huge nuke, or better yet a DoT and then a huge nuke, I would have give THM the title.

This thread makes me want to level to THM 50 and CON 50 so I can compare for myself. :)
#28 Mar 01 2011 at 6:51 AM Rating: Good
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as much as ppl want to tie blm to nukes (which they were notorious for, as are con), i'm pretty sure thm is gonna get blm simply cause it has dark elemental attacks and conjurer will get whm because it has light elemental attacks.

im gonna feel silly being a whm using damnation, shadowsear and silhouette. i don't think they should change the names at all, i'm sure ppl would have rather have been playing blm/whm instead of thm/con but they kind of already committed. they butchered all the mage jobs and split them into dark and light based (if you pay attention to which elements make up astral and dark energies). i think it was a BIG mistake for them to even mention this.

Edited, Mar 1st 2011 8:16am by TempLoop
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#29 Mar 01 2011 at 7:09 AM Rating: Good
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206 posts
SmashingtonWho wrote:
Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
SE feared a RDM class pushing aside any BLM or WHM class, and so divied it up between the two and ended up balancing the two jobs -too well-.


Interesting. Too well balanced - a contradiction of terms?

As far as casting the spells on a melee class Sacrifice > Cure. That regen is no joke and it ticks as you get damaged. To me, getting THM to 20 for Sacrifice II was a melee class prerequisite.

Traditionally, debuffs are the most effective spells for party based combat. You get the effect of the spell time the number of members x the number of attacks while the debuff is active. That amounts to some ridiculous amount of damage for the time/MP spent on one spell. I wonder if Absorb DEF lands on NMs?

Lowering defense, by say 10%, with 10+ melee in the party amounts to more damage than a huge nuke. If you can follow that up with a huge nuke, or better yet a DoT and then a huge nuke, I would have give THM the title.

This thread makes me want to level to THM 50 and CON 50 so I can compare for myself. :)


THM outdamages every other class. It's pretty insane lol. The fact that sticking 2/3 spells (Poison, Bio, Dia) on Dodore and Hautpox is enough to kill their entire party in about 15-18min speaks for itself. That's just when THM is the only one doing anything.
Next time you're in a BW leve PT, see if you can notice a gap between melee attacks where the mob takes damage from Bio+Poison and you'll realize just how insane the damage is from 1 tick.

Not even gonna mention Shadowsear's super high damage.

Edited, Mar 1st 2011 8:11am by LateReg
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#30 Mar 01 2011 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good
11 posts
I hope SE doesn't make it a specific divide like that- having THM be BLM or CON be WHM, we'll come into grouping problems with only 1 healer class like initially in FFXI.

It has been mentioned on the forums about allowing each class to specialize- for example CON to focus on nukes and be a BLM or focus on healing and be a WHM. The best route I believe for SE would be to allow a class to be more than 1 role such as allowing THM to have a debuff/ nuke class specialty and also have a healing/ heal over time specialization so that there is more than 1 healer class in the game.

One thing WoW does extremely well is making sure there is more than 1 healer class, tank, dd, melee dd. However I do not like how they don't have a direct support class like what FFXI has. (Love Bard)

#31 Mar 01 2011 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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They are both great in their own ways, until you have both leveled. Then theres not really any reason to ever use Conjurer.

Thaumaturge has the range advantage which is a big thing, especially @ NM's. Shadowsear is Thaumaturge ONLY, which is very OP atm, especially when you use Chainspell before it in order to fire two off back to back. Sacrifice III and Siphon MP II are also immense.
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#32 Mar 01 2011 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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If I had to assign CON and THM an equivalent job/sub-job from FFXI...

THM = RDM/DRK
CON = SCH/WHM

They play that way to me at least. When I'm on my THM, I regen everybody, throw some DoT's and debuffs, dps a bit, etc. It feels RDM, with a little bit of /DRK or /BLM twist. When I'm on CON, I'm buffing, spike healing / spot healing, and playing the elemental wheel with nukes.

From a storyline point-of-view, it seems that the THM light/dark dichotomy lends itself to SCH gameplay (remember light arts / dark arts). The THM guild feels scholarly too (it's a library isn't it?). Light arts / dark arts could lend itself to both WHM and BLM, but the CON guild 100% feels like a BLM guild (it's dark and brooding and mystical).

Not sure where SE is headed with their caster classes, it's really hard to say. The WHM / BLM / RDM triad is just so ingrained in the series, it's hard not to compare any caster classes to those fundamentals. Maybe they are really gone though, and now we'll finally see Elementalist, Scholar, Time Mage, Bacon Mage, etc.
#33 Mar 01 2011 at 11:14 AM Rating: Decent
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80 posts
thm if only for the better aoe range.

and chainspell-aoe shadowsear destroys...1k+ crits, which isn't available to con.

Edited, Mar 1st 2011 4:56pm by stripesonfire
#34 Mar 01 2011 at 4:20 PM Rating: Decent
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157 posts
I've come close to 1k on r40 leve mobs as CON. That's using a crap Yew Crook +1 too ^.^

CON AoE is less dangerous to use ... more surgical if you will. Less white/yellow mobs damaged/pulled, which can lead to a quick dirt-nap. (or at the least, less SP)
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#35 Mar 01 2011 at 11:29 PM Rating: Default
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206 posts
I agree 1000000% with the CON guild shouting BLM. It's so BLM it's not even funny. It's also, by far, the coolest, most unique guild shop in the game. For those who don't know, you go underground, into a tree hollow.
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#36 Mar 02 2011 at 5:54 AM Rating: Good
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I feel they rushed the whole mages thing far too much. We have quite some melee's, but only two mages. They probably couldnt think of enough spells and abilities for atleast 4 Mages, so they simply combined all the spells and abilities into just two of them. Spreading them out a little so they wouldnt have diffirent amounts of them either. Which was a terrible idea really.

This game's classes have to be fundimentally reformed if we want anything to grow, really. We can still multi-class anyhow. But atleast have the origins from which you learn these spells be a little more... original?

Otherwise, you could always just call yourself a black mage if you only use elemental spells, i suppose.
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#37 Mar 02 2011 at 8:40 PM Rating: Good
Another thing I noticed about CON/THM is that both have access to single and two-handed weapons. There really isn't a huge advantage picking one over the other (ignore the fact that you can equip a shield!) and given conjurers elemental wands and the elemental brands for thm, a lot of people dont even bother with the two handed weapons. I personally am a fan of staves and would like to see some really useful staves that stand out from the crowd. Why does both classes have access to both weapons? I don't know! lol An the elemental breakdown of damage on weapons still confuses me too. lol

(Sorry I am tired and this post looks a bit confusing even to me.)
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#38 Mar 02 2011 at 8:56 PM Rating: Good
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144 posts
The highest ranked stave have a 10-20 points(Potency, Accuracy, Critical) higher the highest ranked wands.

For people like me who are BLMs at heart, every little bit counts.
But yeah, I also would like a higher damage multiplier with staves.

Edited, Mar 2nd 2011 9:56pm by levelxplane
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#39 Mar 03 2011 at 12:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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LateReg wrote:
SmashingtonWho wrote:
Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
SE feared a RDM class pushing aside any BLM or WHM class, and so divied it up between the two and ended up balancing the two jobs -too well-.


Interesting. Too well balanced - a contradiction of terms?

As far as casting the spells on a melee class Sacrifice > Cure. That regen is no joke and it ticks as you get damaged. To me, getting THM to 20 for Sacrifice II was a melee class prerequisite.

Traditionally, debuffs are the most effective spells for party based combat. You get the effect of the spell time the number of members x the number of attacks while the debuff is active. That amounts to some ridiculous amount of damage for the time/MP spent on one spell. I wonder if Absorb DEF lands on NMs?

Lowering defense, by say 10%, with 10+ melee in the party amounts to more damage than a huge nuke. If you can follow that up with a huge nuke, or better yet a DoT and then a huge nuke, I would have give THM the title.

This thread makes me want to level to THM 50 and CON 50 so I can compare for myself. :)


THM outdamages every other class. It's pretty insane lol. The fact that sticking 2/3 spells (Poison, Bio, Dia) on Dodore and Hautpox is enough to kill their entire party in about 15-18min speaks for itself. That's just when THM is the only one doing anything.
Next time you're in a BW leve PT, see if you can notice a gap between melee attacks where the mob takes damage from Bio+Poison and you'll realize just how insane the damage is from 1 tick.

Not even gonna mention Shadowsear's super high damage.

Edited, Mar 1st 2011 8:11am by LateReg


To piggyback on what LateReg said, CON and THM are not well balanced. In fact, they are so imbalanced that if you have both leveled, THM outclasses CON in essentially every aspect of play currently. Because of the ability to use moves cross-class, the distinguishing factors that separate the 2 are their (1) class-only abilities, (2) equipment preferences and base stats, and (3) AoE difference.

Pretty much every move in both classes can be used by the other with the exception of Ancient Magic (CON) and Shadowsear (THM). I have yet to find a good reason to use ancient magic, but Shadowsear is an incredible damage dealing tool with the rare property that the damage will not scale down on NMs. This essentially makes it stronger the harder the mob you fight.

As mentioned somewhere earlier, THM also has a better variety of gear access in addition to higher base HP (but slightly less MP). This makes it more fit to solo.

The AoE on THM is incredibly strong since the November update. While still technically conal, it extends much further and has a wider range side to side as well. It'll basically hit anything on your screen. Compare this to CON's AoE, which is a small circle around the target. This one is really hard to describe, but if you play both classes, you will more than likely become incredibly frustrated with the CON AoE after seeing the THM version.

Regarding THM as the new RDM or soloist, this is definitely my experience with the job. I've personally done all 3 50 Faction Leve NMs as well as Dodore solo. Haughtpox is fairly similar to Dodore in that the solo is based on the fact that Emulate is broken currently. Dodore video for anyone interested:

THM Dodore Solo

THM is basically the best soloist job, the best damage dealer (DoTs, Shadowsear, AoE properties), and the best healer (superior AoE). It's already received a very heavy nerf (Firm Conviction, Punishing Barbs), and is still broken.




Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 1:16am by Kaeko
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#40 Mar 03 2011 at 1:06 AM Rating: Good
Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
Another thing I noticed about CON/THM is that both have access to single and two-handed weapons. There really isn't a huge advantage picking one over the other (ignore the fact that you can equip a shield!) and given conjurers elemental wands and the elemental brands for thm, a lot of people dont even bother with the two handed weapons. I personally am a fan of staves and would like to see some really useful staves that stand out from the crowd. Why does both classes have access to both weapons? I don't know! lol An the elemental breakdown of damage on weapons still confuses me too. lol

(Sorry I am tired and this post looks a bit confusing even to me.)


I get what you mean. I like the option to go all out damage (party?) or take the more defensive role (with shield, for soling or when you are low man.) I use shield all the time right now, perhaps just to level it.

But I'm picturing a future where I buy an Uber Staff of Doom for nuking NMs and other challenging end-game content. I'm glad I won't have to level a second weapon to make this switch.
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